10th Ed Marine Tactics - For the Emprah!

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**Celerior**

The aggressor-apothecary-bolter-discipline combo is a great one. I want to present an alternative with its own pluses and minuses: Hellblaster-lieutenant-bolter-discipline.

I won't present stats. You can work it out versus assorted targets in various situations.
But straight damage comparisons ignore the X-factor which is shooting on death. That X-factor makes a big difference in my game yesterday. I essentially traded this unit for a wraithknight: He shot me in overwatch and the dead guys shot him, then I shot him and the dead guys shot him, then he didn't dare move for fear of overwatch, shot me and my dead guys shot him and he died, leaving 1 surviving hellblaster and the LT. I'll take that trade.

I'm not saying that the hellblaster squad is superior in every way. It isn't.
Necron warriors backed by Orikan the Diviner when you have oath of moment active? Aggressors 100%, it's not even funny.
Terminators/oblits with armor of contempt in cover? Or worse, wraithknight? Hellblasters 100%.

If your army needs less anti-horde and more anti-tank and anti-elite infantry, I recommend the hellblasters-with-disciplined-lieutenant.

**ccs**

Celerior wrote:
Alright, having lost 98-77 to a 2-wraithknight 2-avatar Eldar list, I'm feeling pretty good.

You do know that the Avatar is an Epic Hero & thus limited to 1/army, right?
Or do Eldar have some way to get around that?

**ZergSmasher**

ccs wrote:
Celerior wrote:
Alright, having lost 98-77 to a 2-wraithknight 2-avatar Eldar list, I'm feeling pretty good.

You do know that the Avatar is an Epic Hero & thus limited to 1/army, right?
Or do Eldar have some way to get around that?

2 Avatars means Avatar of Khaine and the Yncarne (the Avatar of Ynnead). Perfectly legal in a Ynnari army and very nasty!

**Celerior**

ZergSmasher wrote:
ccs wrote:
Celerior wrote:
Alright, having lost 98-77 to a 2-wraithknight 2-avatar Eldar list, I'm feeling pretty good.

You do know that the Avatar is an Epic Hero & thus limited to 1/army, right?
Or do Eldar have some way to get around that?

2 Avatars means Avatar of Khaine and the Yncarne (the Avatar of Ynnead). Perfectly legal in a Ynnari army and very nasty!

Don'cha know, the rules don't apply to Eldar!

Yes, sorry. Avatar of Khaine and Avatar of Ynnead (Yncarne).

**Lyracian**

Celerior wrote:

Lyracian:
1 grav cannon squad can use 'storm of fire' in devastator doctrine to great effect, esp. coming out of reserve. 2 grav cannon squads not so much. I was wrong to build in that redundancy, I should have taken 1 lascannon devastator squad instead.

Wonderful to here as they are probably my best painted unit and I always loved to field them in 5th Ed as tank/monster hunters. I have two games organised now one against Orks and the other, most likely, vs Tyranids. Will post up how they go next month.

Celerior wrote:

Librarian dreadnought wins MVP. Slings squads into position, out of danger, and then turn 4 charged the wraithguard brick and picked out the spirit seer for assasinate, held the home objective for 3 more points on turn 5.

It is a nice unit and wonderful ability. Certainly something to put on the Christmas list. Are you using he Leviathan missions? I have had a read through and like the design. Are you doing Fixed or Tactical (random) secondary objectives? Random looks like you have the potential to score more whereas fixed look to work well against certain armies.

Celerior wrote:

Unfortunately the marine codex is likely to remove all my biker units from circulation. Both the scout bikers and attack bikes will be sorely missed. In my previous game, they hid well and forced my opponent to bring in deep strikers into his own backfield, and in this game, the 2 attack bikes alone did significant damage to the Avatar and then essentially ate up the surviving wraithknight's entire shooting phase.

No Bikes!

Glad my friends are a bit more casual and we can carry on using the free codex they gave out. I barely have enough decent units left to make an army.

**ZergSmasher**

On the bikes thing, GW themselves seemed to imply that you could just use your bike models with the Outrider rules. I would further add that you could probably use your attack bikes as Invader ATVs. I suspect the old Scout models could also still be used with the new rules, although you'd probably want to rebase them or add base extenders to put them on 32mm (unless of course the new ones will be on those damn 28.5mm that GW are so in love with right now...).

**Celerior**

1 major problem is that the ATV is hugely inferior to the attack bike.
The benefits of an attack bike are its speed, ability to hide, scoring ability, and multimelta.

For 25 more points, are any of these things improved in an ATV? It's no faster, larger and therefore harder to hide, no better at scoring, and has no additional firepower. You do get 40% more wounds for 45% more points, but cheap wounds isn't the selling point of an attack bike.

If they reduce the points cost of an ATV to 60-65, then I'll consider fielding my attack bikes as ATVs. Otherwise, that's an entry in the marine lineup that I will sorely miss.

My current list which I feel pretty good about has 6 legends units which add serious capabilities: 2 each of scout snipers, scout bikes, and attack bikes.
A scout bike squad is cheaper and has so many more capabilities (scout move & turn 1 charge capability, triple blast, combi-weapon or power fist on sarge) than an ATV that it really isn't funny.
Scout snipers can hold a home objective or park near a corner for investigate signals, while safely contributing a reasonable bit of dakka to whatever is going on.
Those six units are also my cheap package for fending off reinforcements from hitting anything really valuable. The rest of my army is going to get a lot more vulnerable to things like Shelaxi or the aforementioned outflanking aggressors with them gone.

**Niiai**

Yeah those are pretty great. It might be GW did not spend a lot of time balancing them for the index era knowing they would be gone very early on. (Even earlier if Tyranids did not winn that event.)

That 75 point infiltrate, lone operator scouts are very strong. But alas, it is not meant to be.

**tneva82**

Campaign didn't decide order of codex release. Even if gw wanted to let that be decided timeframe way too short. Release schedules are decided long time ago and altering varies from impossible to silly expensive.

Assuming it was honest and not fixed all it decided is what they said it would. Who gets to see models first.

**Niiai**

They porbably had both codexes and all the figures reasy ages ago. I suppose the articles on the warhammer communaty are written nearer the release. But They could easaly have everything ready to go long before and then switch them around. Or it could all be rigged. Who knows.

I wish the infiltrait lone operator scouts can carry on to the new scouts.

**H.B.M.C.**

tneva82 wrote:
Campaign didn't decide order of codex release. Even if gw wanted to let that be decided timeframe way too short. Release schedules are decided long time ago and altering varies from impossible to silly expensive.

Marines and Tyranids would have been ready at the same time (and depending on who you belive 'Nids were ready a long time ago) so there's nothing far fetched about leaving who goes first to a campaign when the loser's coming out a fortnight later.

**Kingsley**

Looks like the balance dataslate has some changes for Marines. Desolators are up to 200 pts/5 and you can't take the ten-man squad at all, so the Apothecary Bolter Discipline combo with them looks like it's done. The Captain free stratagem ability has also eaten a nerf, applying only to Battle Tactics stratagems.

Lots of infantry seem to have dropped a bit in points, though Infiltrators and Sternguard went a bit up.

We've also seen some changes with vehicles -- the Predator Destructor, Vindicator, and some Dreadnoughts got cheaper, while the Storm Speeder Hammerstrike and Gladiator Lancer went up. Outriders and their ATV dropped a bit as well.

If anyone was relying on Exaction squads, they've been buried in nerfs -- the 5 man squad is now illegal, the 10/11 man one that you have to take went up significantly in points, and I think you can't take as much special stuff in the squad either.

**tneva82**

And this is why i don't rush to spam broken stuff

avoid gw marketing department's ploy.

**em_en_oh_pee**

The change to Devastating Wounds seems like a benefit to our infantry. I am leaning more and more towards that skew list I posted (especially since its on-brand for the Chapter I am painting).

The point bumps to the Storm Speeder and Lancer also make this more appealing.

I don't think the Strategem change is enough to stop using the Captain. Still a beneficial ability, just more situational.

Honestly, overall happy for Marines with this - though my other armies (Admech and Knights) are ...well, sitting in their cases for a while.

**ZergSmasher**

Did anyone else catch the fact that Jump Pack VanVets are now cheaper than VanVets on foot?

**MinscS2**

ZergSmasher wrote:
Did anyone else catch the fact that Jump Pack VanVets are now cheaper than VanVets on foot?

Yeah but it just means Vanguard on foot are about to get removed come the codex.

**H.B.M.C.**

I did say all those people who rushed out to get 30 Desolators were going to regret it.

GW's solution is typically hamfisted, but at least it's simple, localised to the specific unit, and they didn't feth over units from other armies at the same time.

**em_en_oh_pee**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I did say all those people who rushed out to get 30 Desolators were going to regret it.

GW's solution is typically hamfisted, but at least it's simple, localised to the specific unit, and they didn't feth over units from other armies at the same time.

Shame they couldn't be bothered to do this more broadly. Localized is preferable to giant sweeping rules that hurt unintended targets.

**Celerior**

I think there's still a case to be made for a few desolation marines. The vengor launcher on its own is effectively a whirlwind tank, with 2 fewer shots but with better BS. The whirlwind is still considered viable.

Stop trying to win the game via desolation marines. Marines weren't doing so hot while trying these past few months in the first place. But if you think of them as a strong imperial guard mortar squad plus a slightly reduced whirlwind plus a slightly reduced lascannon devastator squad on an incredibly fragile chassis, I think you can imagine them being worth 200 or so. But don't spam them, they need protection. For my next online tournament, I'm not taking the 5-man squad I've been running off the roster. If I do, it will likely be for aggressors.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Post-Update Oops! All Infantry Imperial Fists

Spoiler:

67 Marines, much of it Gravis. Lots of firepower. Definitely Strategic Reserve whichever unit seems best - the Cap+Aggressors or Tor+Erads. Plus obviously the Inceptors. The list has a lot of threats, but I so sweat it's mobility, but that's always a foot slogging drawback.

I think this list has potential, especially as a skew list. Thoughts?

**ZergSmasher**

I'd rather attach an Apothecary Biologis to the Aggressors (with Bolter Discipline of course); the combo of Lethal + Sustained Hits is very nasty indeed, especially when they proc on 5+ to hit. The Gravis Captain's ability is kind of meh, as it only really comes into play if his unit gets smoked. I definitely like Sternguard, as I think they hit deceptively hard with their Dev Wounds. If you can get them either Sustained Hits somehow (Bolter Discipline, but I think Aggressors want that more) or any kind of wound rerolls they can really start to sing. I've been thinking of taking a unit of them with Azrael in my Dark Angels, as he gives them both Sustained Hits and a 4++ save.

**Celerior**

MNOP,
If you follow Zerg's advice, the apoth's assignment can be switched to the eradicator if facing knights.

I feel like in theory, in an even game, by turn 4 when the armies are attritted the heavy intercessors should be hard to remove from objectives, but you have to do enough damage first, but how many such squads and how many damage squads I don't know. I'm not a fan of the eliminators, especially not with that loadout. They don't carry their weight, neither in survivability nor in damage output. I feel like they just don't have enough firepower to take out a character, and with a minimum of care an opponent can avoid them all drawing LOS simultaneously on any vulnerable characters.

Consider: Attack bikes. They bring big mobility, good firepower (especially in packs supporting each other), can hide/screen well, score pretty well, and have decent points-per-wound more or less in line with eradicators.

Consider: a point-per-wound (PPW) analysis of your units:
Heavy intercessors 7
Infiltrators, 10 or 8.3 after FNP
Eradicators 10.6
Sternguard, 11
Aggressors 11.1
Hellblasters 12.5
Eliminators 12.5
Inceptors 12.8
Desolators 20
If the ones at the bottom don't do more damage or fulfill a badly needed role better than something at the top, consider other options. That's what got my eye on the eliminators. I'd rather have more hellblasters, aggressors, eradicators...

Consider: Ah, the obligatory and now overpriced infiltrators meant mainly to deter GSC. I'm trying out a big infernus squad (8.5 PPW now) to replace mine, as I'm sick of them adding nothing to offensive output and could use a horrifying overwatch unit. So far the results are inconclusive.

**em_en_oh_pee**

I think there is something to be said about strategic use versus actual damage dealt. The eliminators represents a threat that can't be ignored and must be played around. Two squads should be enough with devastating wounds to cut down a character if left exposed. This seems especially true now they've come down in price so far. Any much a similar fashion, the inceptors might not necessarily be the most potent unit ppm, but they definitely play a strategic role with their mobility and their shenanigans.

I see the point about the apothecary biologis for the squad. It does make a little bit more sense than the captain at this point, though I do see some merit been having a Melee character like the captain in the unit.

My only stipulation for changes to my list specifically, which is by no means the norm for others, would be the use of only Primaris models. Specifically because I have an Ultima founding chapter. So despite owning a bunch of attack bikes, I'm hilariously not going to be using them.

Definitely some food for thought as I continue to build this list, which is greatly appreciated.

**Silvavdp**

Hi guys, I am playing against Chaos Daemons next week and I am building a list to give a good fight, I am a bit of a casual and so far I am just not sure about the Land Raider even with the buff. So far I think I will try this:

CHARACTER

Captain in Terminator Armour (95pts)
• 1x Storm Bolter
• 1x Relic Weapon

Primaris Lieutenant (75pts)
• 1x Bolter Discipline
• 1x Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted Power Sword & Storm Shield
• 1x Master-crafted Power Weapon
• 1x Neo-volkite Pistol
• 1x Storm Shield

Roboute Guilliman (380pts)
• 1x Hand of Dominion
• 1x The Emperor's Sword
• 1x Warlord

BATTLELINE

Intercessor Squad (170pts)
• 2x Astartes Grenade Launcher
• 10x Intercessors
• 10x Bolt Pistol
• 10x Bolt Rifle
• 10x Close Combat Weapon

OTHER DATASHEETS

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (90pts)
• 1x Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant
• 1x Master-crafted Power Weapon
• 1x Neo-volkite Pistol
• 2x Bladeguard Veterans
• 2x Master-crafted Power Weapon
• 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol

Infiltrator Squad (100pts)
• 1x Helix Gauntlet
• 5x Infiltrators
• 5x Marksman Bolt Carbine
• 5x Bolt Pistol
• 5x Close Combat Weapon

Scout Sniper Squad (75pts)
• 1x Scout Sniper Sergeant
• 1x Scout Sniper Rifle
• 1x Close Combat Weapon
• 1x Bolt Pistol
• 4x Scout Snipers
• 4x Scout Sniper Rifle
• 4x Close Combat Weapon
• 4x Bolt Pistol

Terminator Squad (190pts)
• 1x Terminator Sergeant
• 1x Storm Bolter
• 1x Power Weapon
• 1x Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon
• 1x Assault Cannon
• 1x Power Fist
• 3x Terminator w/ Power Fist
• 3x Power Fist
• 3x Storm Bolter

Land Raider (240pts)
• 1x Armoured Tracks
• 2x Godhammer Lascannon
• 1x Twin Heavy Bolter

Predator Annihilator (130pts)
• 1x Armoured Tracks
• 1x Hunter Killer Missile
• 1x Predator Twin Lascannon
• 1x 2 Lascannons
• 2x Lascannon
• 1x Storm Bolter

Redemptor Dreadnought (210pts)
• 1x Icarus Rocket Pod
• 1x Redemptor Fist
• 1x Macro Plasma Incinerator
• 1x Onslaught Gatling Cannon
• 1x Twin Storm Bolter

Redemptor Dreadnought (210pts)
• 1x Icarus Rocket Pod
• 1x Redemptor Fist
• 1x Macro Plasma Incinerator
• 1x Onslaught Gatling Cannon
• 1x Twin Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

I only have 5 Hellblasters and due to that, in this situation I will be probably adding the Lt with bolter discipline to 10 Intercessors. Really thinking about the vindicator for this list too. Snipers for home objective and of course sniping, the Infiltrators to deny deep strikes and get and early no man's land objective. The bulk will be the Land Raider with termies and the Dreads. Predator shooting for far away and Guilliman supporting the bulk.

**Celerior**

SilverDP, the following would be list tailoring if it weren't my general advice - I'd recommend the land raider redeemer, both because one rarely needs 48" range driving up the middle, and because the flamestorm cannons make for amazing overwatch, and because you specifically have a list with lots of other long range shooting already.

Against demons specifically, this advice is even more true. Demons have an unshootable-outside-18" bubble ability on Be'lakor. And a major threat often uses rapid ingress.

MNOP, I agree that a strategic threat is valuable and I calculate a 1-((1-(5/6*1/6))^3) = ~36.1% chance you score at least 3 unsavable wounds (without oath) with a round of shooting. So the threat is real. But I think that 3 wound leader characters who can't get back up and don't have lone op are rare. Those that can't cross open stretches in one move even less common. Run through most characters you'd want to snipe and think through whether they need to sit in the open. I don't see it.
So I don't think the precision come up much or will stymie opponents much. But damage 3 is rare, AP-2 is perfect, and moving after shooting is nice. The damage output might be significant on its own. Let me know how they run.

To tneva82, MNOP, and anyone else who read my discussion of trying to hit Magnus, guess what I'm playing against tonight. Yes, it's my list mentioned previously against Magnus, Ahriman, Termies, Rubrics, mutalith and friends. Still using the old rules because the tournament was locked in under the old rules. His army in points now: 2165 points. Mine: 2000. Guess we'll see if I'm talking BS soon enough...

**thori**

Celerior wrote:
MNOP,
If you follow Zerg's advice, the apoth's assignment can be switched to the eradicator if facing knights.

I feel like in theory, in an even game, by turn 4 when the armies are attritted the heavy intercessors should be hard to remove from objectives, but you have to do enough damage first, but how many such squads and how many damage squads I don't know. I'm not a fan of the eliminators, especially not with that loadout. They don't carry their weight, neither in survivability nor in damage output. I feel like they just don't have enough firepower to take out a character, and with a minimum of care an opponent can avoid them all drawing LOS simultaneously on any vulnerable characters.

Consider: Attack bikes. They bring big mobility, good firepower (especially in packs supporting each other), can hide/screen well, score pretty well, and have decent points-per-wound more or less in line with eradicators.

Consider: a point-per-wound (PPW) analysis of your units:
Heavy intercessors 7
Infiltrators, 10 or 8.3 after FNP
Eradicators 10.6
Sternguard, 11
Aggressors 11.1
Hellblasters 12.5
Eliminators 12.5
Inceptors 12.8
Desolators 20
If the ones at the bottom don't do more damage or fulfill a badly needed role better than something at the top, consider other options. That's what got my eye on the eliminators. I'd rather have more hellblasters, aggressors, eradicators...

Consider: Ah, the obligatory and now overpriced infiltrators meant mainly to deter GSC. I'm trying out a big infernus squad (8.5 PPW now) to replace mine, as I'm sick of them adding nothing to offensive output and could use a horrifying overwatch unit. So far the results are inconclusive.

Hi, i am sorry but I have maybe a stupid question :

How to calculate point-per-wound for units ? Is it only working for range or melee also ? i want to do it for my other armies.

Thank you !

**Nevelon**

Normally it’s just taking the points you pay for the unit and divide it by the number of wounds it has. So a 200 point unit with 20 wounds would be 10ppm.

Now you can modify that based on rules. If you have a 5+++ Feel no pain save, that functionality/mathematically works out to having 1/3 more wounds. Mostly, and susceptible to our fickle little six sided friends. Most of the time invuln saves work the same, but not vs. mortal wounds or dev wounds. How crunchy and exception loaded do you want your general benchmark? Also, due to toughness, not all wounds are created equal.

**tneva82**

Plus wounds not everything.

5+++ btw means opponent needs to cause 50% more damage to kill. 4w model, he needs 50% increase in damage

**em_en_oh_pee**

Celerior wrote:

MNOP, I agree that a strategic threat is valuable and I calculate a 1-((1-(5/6*1/6))^3) = ~36.1% chance you score at least 3 unsavable wounds (without oath) with a round of shooting. So the threat is real. But I think that 3 wound leader characters who can't get back up and don't have lone op are rare. Those that can't cross open stretches in one move even less common. Run through most characters you'd want to snipe and think through whether they need to sit in the open. I don't see it.
So I don't think the precision come up much or will stymie opponents much. But damage 3 is rare, AP-2 is perfect, and moving after shooting is nice. The damage output might be significant on its own. Let me know how they run.

To tneva82, MNOP, and anyone else who read my discussion of trying to hit Magnus, guess what I'm playing against tonight. Yes, it's my list mentioned previously against Magnus, Ahriman, Termies, Rubrics, mutalith and friends. Still using the old rules because the tournament was locked in under the old rules. His army in points now: 2165 points. Mine: 2000. Guess we'll see if I'm talking BS soon enough...

That is a really good point. With the new Scouts coming along, I wonder if those will be potentially able to field more Snipers and replace them generally. I am basically in a holding pattern until the new Codex drops anyhow, because I know I will have to rework my list based on that. Definitely have my eyes on new Scouts and especially new Assault Marines - my list has a lot of slower elements I think having some fast stuff would be beneficial.

**Nevelon**

I would not bet on full sniper scouts being a thing anymore. From the teasers we have it looks like one guy with a rife. Probably going to go the way of a special squad upgrade like the HB or ML.

Me and my full 10 man sniper squad would love to be wrong. Or at least allowed in legends. But with GW’s “what’s in the box” mindset, who knows.