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That close-up assault detachment thingy (don't remember the name) seems like it'll work well for Ravenwing

 ZergSmasher wrote:
That close-up assault detachment thingy (don't remember the name) seems like it'll work well for Ravenwing

Agreed. "Firestorm Assault Force" making all ranged weapons "Assault" and granting a strength bonus under 12" will make them zippy and maybe want to get close. Strength 9 Plasma Talons and Strength 10 Multi-Meltas will kind-of make up for losing Oath damage re-rolls for certain targets (but certainly not all). Should also help with Tactical Objectives (Advance and still be eligible for certain ones). Still want to have Thunderstrikes to help with that.

So I will park my pessimism for a bit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm more concerned with how the hell this book even works with Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch. I mean, those factions are getting full Codices this time around (right?) and not supplement books, but the preview video yesterday specifically calls out this new book as working with those other Chapters.

So if I was, for example, a Blood Angel player, do I use the Marine Codex as well as the upcoming Blood Angel Codex, or use the Marine Codex until the BA one gets released at which point I switch, or can I mix detachments from the BA 'Dex with the main rule from the Marine Codex, or is Oath just going to be the rule in every Marine Codex?

Does it make a difference? Given you can paint up your stuff however you want, and aside from specifics which i believe are covered in the various indices and how that interacts with the codex, why worry about the chapter codices until they are about to come out?

I do think there is validity to the question if I'm a blood angels player, and I bring my death company with all SM codex detachments? (i think yes)

bored1 wrote:
Does it make a difference?

I don't know. That's the problem.

If this Marine Codex is meant to be for Blood Angel players, then do they just use this? Use this and the Index? Use this and their upcoming Codex? Or does their upcoming Codex replace this new Marine Codex completely?

Or are they just not calling the BA/DA/SW/DW Codices "supplements" because they don't want people to complain about buying two AUD$92 books.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

If this Marine Codex is meant to be for Blood Angel players, then do they just use this?

Yes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Use this and the Index?

Yes, this and the BA Index. The larger Adeptus Astartes Index would disappear, like the Tyranids one did.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Use this and their upcoming Codex?

Yes. Whether the data sheets are duplicated in your codex isn't relevant as it's almost guaranteed the detachments will not be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Or does their upcoming Codex replace this new Marine Codex completely?

Yes, with a caveat.

Unknown as of yet for data sheets, but if you want to use any shared units before then, you'll need the most recent rules, which will only be found here. If you want to keep using the standard Astartes detachments after the BA book, you'll want the rules from this book still.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Or are they just not calling the BA/DA/SW/DW Codices "supplements" because they don't want people to complain about buying two AUD$92 books.

Probably, yes.

Well GW replied to me on facebook and referred to the BA/DA/SW/DW books as "supplements". So it looks like those players need both.

I wonder if/how that would work for chapters sharing detachments?

 Nevelon wrote:
I wonder if/how that would work for chapters sharing detachments?

Can't imagine it will be much different from the current index world, but it will be interesting to see.

Lemondish wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I wonder if/how that would work for chapters sharing detachments?

Can't imagine it will be much different from the current index world, but it will be interesting to see.

Right now I can field my Ultras in deathwatch/BA/etc detachments with minimal fuss. Will I still be able to once they have their own books? Will they still be able to use core ones? The term “supplement” implies that they can still use basic stuff, by it might not be a two-way street anymore.

And I know I’m not buying supplements for other chapters. Not sinking that much cash into rules.

I think that the Firestorm assault force's +1S can more or less make up for the oath of moment downgrade when you take into account that it operates even when not targeting an oath target.
Also, all weapons being assault is essentially permanent devastator doctrine. And those rules synergize.

So let's see the relics and strats. So far I'm neutral, but shooting on disembarkation has definitely caught my attention. If they have a strat that gives improved AP like storm of fire, I'll be satisfied with that. But still mourning the loss of attack bikes and scout bikes. Marines need fast skirmisher units that aren't overpriced and don't suck (looking at you, primaris bikers). They got me my crushing win in my recent game of 40K soccer (servo skulls) vs. Abbadon.

Celerior wrote:
I think that the Firestorm assault force's +1S can more or less make up for the oath of moment downgrade when you take into account that it operates even when not targeting an oath target.
Also, all weapons being assault is essentially permanent devastator doctrine. And those rules synergize.

So let's see the relics and strats. So far I'm neutral, but shooting on disembarkation has definitely caught my attention. If they have a strat that gives improved AP like storm of fire, I'll be satisfied with that. But still mourning the loss of attack bikes and scout bikes. Marines need fast skirmisher units that aren't overpriced and don't suck (looking at you, primaris bikers). They got me my crushing win in my recent game of 40K soccer (servo skulls) vs. Abbadon.

Thankfully, I think Outriders are almost there. They're just as fast baseline I think, and auto advance 6", but don't get that early scout move. If the ATV could get their data sheet ability even when added to a unit of Outriders, then the only thing we need there is a solid price.

Lemondish wrote:

Celerior wrote:
I think that the Firestorm assault force's +1S can more or less make up for the oath of moment downgrade when you take into account that it operates even when not targeting an oath target.
Also, all weapons being assault is essentially permanent devastator doctrine. And those rules synergize.

So let's see the relics and strats. So far I'm neutral, but shooting on disembarkation has definitely caught my attention. If they have a strat that gives improved AP like storm of fire, I'll be satisfied with that. But still mourning the loss of attack bikes and scout bikes. Marines need fast skirmisher units that aren't overpriced and don't suck (looking at you, primaris bikers). They got me my crushing win in my recent game of 40K soccer (servo skulls) vs. Abbadon.

Thankfully, I think Outriders are almost there. They're just as fast baseline I think, and auto advance 6", but don't get that early scout move. If the ATV could get their data sheet ability even when added to a unit of Outriders, then the only thing we need there is a solid price.

Lemondish, I disagree vehemently.

If the ATV was cheaper with less wounds, I'd be happier. Attack bikes don't need to be resilient, they need to get there with >0 OC, punch a bit once maybe, and die horribly without wasting a lot of points. That said, I'd take 'em for 60 points. Once we hit 65, I start staring earnestly at crusader squads and wishing I didn't want that librarian dreadnought.

Outriders have neither the utility nor the firepower nor the cheapness of scout bikes. 3 grenade launchers (with a blast option) plus 3 shotguns plus a power fist or combi-weapon is an order of magnitude better than what outriders have. And that scout move means that when you get 1st turn, you can easily charge/block any opponents' vehicles or weak screening units near the line. Use assault doctrine and you can start your charge already in their deployment zone. Consider charging a vehicle. It's not going to kill you in 1 round of assault. Does he remain stationary where he can't see your army moving out? Does he fall back backwards and get nowhere and lose shooting privilege? If a transport, does he risk a desparate escape check to fall back forward over you? Either way, if he deployed behind cover he isn't shooting anything but your scout bikers, and you've gummed up all his plans. Outriders can't do that. Outriders, by my spreadsheet's calculations, is by almost every measure one of the worst points-per-damage ratio unit the marine index has against pretty much every target I have measured.

In short, the outcome of the firstborn cull on my army is that this game-shaping turn 1 threat/tool is gone from my army, and I have to use most of those points to pay for 3 useless extra wounds on each of my attack bikes. Also eliminating my scout snipers, but I can live with that.

Celerior wrote:
In short, the outcome of the firstborn cull on my army is that this game-shaping turn 1 threat/tool is gone from my army, and I have to use most of those points to pay for 3 useless extra wounds on each of my attack bikes. Also eliminating my scout snipers, but I can live with that.

The lost of all the cheap units is annoying. I can replace scouts and bikes with Dreadnaughts and still make a valid army list but it sure has lost speed and versatility.

Perhaps the new single sniper will be closer to the Vindicare Assassin's Exitus Rifle to make up for only having one in a unit? By the look of it will not be that long until we have a codex and answers.

At least some of the new detachment rules look interesting - Ironstorm, Firestorm, Stormland (there is a lot of Storm in these Space Marines)

Lyracian wrote:

Celerior wrote:
In short, the outcome of the firstborn cull on my army is that this game-shaping turn 1 threat/tool is gone from my army, and I have to use most of those points to pay for 3 useless extra wounds on each of my attack bikes. Also eliminating my scout snipers, but I can live with that.

The lost of all the cheap units is annoying. I can replace scouts and bikes with Dreadnaughts and still make a valid army list but it sure has lost speed and versatility.

Perhaps the new single sniper will be closer to the Vindicare Assassin's Exitus Rifle to make up for only having one in a unit? By the look of it will not be that long until we have a codex and answers.

At least some of the new detachment rules look interesting - Ironstorm, Firestorm, Stormland (there is a lot of Storm in these Space Marines)

I think I'll get some AoS Stormcast heads, stick them on some excess SM bodies, & paint 'em gold to go with the theme....

Ohhh boy. For my list, that Raven Guard option seems nice. Armywide -1 to-hit and cover? I think that suits an all-infantry list. Plus the bonus of that actually being my Chapter's progenitors. Strike from the Shadows and Guerilla Tactics seem pretty good.

Iron Hands one sounds solid too.

Celerior wrote:
Lemondish, I disagree vehemently.

Vehemently, you say? Guess there's no discussion to be had in that case. Carry on.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Ohhh boy. For my list, that Raven Guard option seems nice. Armywide -1 to-hit and cover? I think that suits an all-infantry list. Plus the bonus of that actually being my Chapter's progenitors. Strike from the Shadows and Guerilla Tactics seem pretty good.
Iron Hands one sounds solid too.

I am a fan of the Iron Hand/Ironstorm option given my preference for a tank heavy army. One re-roll per unit will certainly help.

If the Techmarine can give them all Lethal hits that will be a nice bonus; although they would have to clump up a lot to get within his Aura which may not help with scoring objectives.

Lemondish wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Lemondish, I disagree vehemently.

Vehemently, you say? Guess there's no discussion to be had in that case. Carry on.

Hahaha it's fine to disagree. I'd love to have something pointed out to me.

I personally think right now that outriders are one of the least useful things in the index right. In terms of damage output, maneuverability (don't forget infantry can go through walls), OC and defense on a per-point basis I believe them outclassed by assault squads, bike squads and scout bikers. Hopefully the codex gives them something in at least one detachment.

Celerior wrote:
Hopefully the codex gives them something in at least one detachment.

Like...

Confirmed its a Battle Tactic, which is nice. This looks like within the Vanguard Spearhead to be a good replacement for the Gladius Storm of Fire.



Glad this was confirmed and I am thinking this will be my initial go-to. Reducing incoming fire is vital with infantry armies. Especially if there are additional movement shenanigans, such leaked Guerilla Tactics. Given the other leaked info was correct, I am going to assume that one is too.

Though Close-range Eradication is also so, so tempting.

Very eager to see how this Codex shakes out. Especially with the new Assault Marines, which might be a viable screen unit for my slower stuff provided they are a cheap enough unit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Hopefully the codex gives them something in at least one detachment.

Like...

I'm actually not impressed. That's permanent assault doctrine, but you only really need it for one turn, maybe 2. It definitely doesn't turn me on to outriders.

Compare it to the firestorm detachment which is basically permanent devastator doctrine, which I think is usually more useful for most builds, plus extra strength at close range.

Celerior wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Hopefully the codex gives them something in at least one detachment.

Like...

I'm actually not impressed. That's permanent assault doctrine, but you only really need it for one turn, maybe 2. It definitely doesn't turn me on to outriders.

Compare it to the firestorm detachment which is basically permanent devastator doctrine, which I think is usually more useful for most builds, plus extra strength at close range.

Meanwhile I've seen others elsewhere say it's pretty powerful so I guess it depends on the type of army you're building, people will choose their detachment based on what their army need is.

It depends on how gladius remains intact. Currently gladius offers that for one turn, and you can get it for 1 CP. While also offer fallback and charge as well as Lance.

Perhaps the rest of the upgrades and stratagems are really good.

Space wolves might be interested in permanent advance and charge. They they usually use melee as a support element, not as the main hammer.

 Niiai wrote:
It depends on how gladius remains intact. Currently gladius offers that for one turn, and you can get it for 1 CP. While also offer fallback and charge as well as Lance.

Perhaps the rest of the upgrades and stratagems are really good.

Space wolves might be interested in permanent advance and charge. They they usually use melee as a support element, not as the main hammer.

Based on nid codex zero changes on gladius.

Yeah my over all feel is the Gladius will be the "high technical difficulty but amazing results if you know what you're doing" detachment. I expect your average player will be better off with another detachment but the really good players MIGHT be able to really make gladius a game winner

AuspexTactics dropped a nothing tiny leak - with some points costs for Jump Intercessors. Allegedly, they are listed in the Codex at 90pt for a squad. That is wild! If so, 180pt for a full size squad to hop around the table sounds really solid (especially for my skew list). Starting to feel like I don't have room for all the goodies anymore! I do hope we see a bit of a price reduction with the new book, specifically for Desolation Squads. With the Oath changes and squad size limit, no reason for them to be 200pt.

And I just downloaded some very neat 3D print files for some Dark Angels Jump Ints too (tents fingers and smirks).

Are normal bikers and attack bikes gone across all the Loyalist? Or do only Ravenwing ones exist? What about for White Scars? Thinking about it I didn't see landspeeders really either on the GW website.

Is it just those like "primaris" options for the most part now?

They're gone. Most things are gone. It's almost 100% Primaris 100% of the time (particularly from an infantry perspective).



Looking at the contents, we can see the following First Born units remain:

1. Sicarius
2. Lysander
3. Vulkan He'stan
4. Chaplain with Jump Pack (for... some reason)
5. Tactical Squad
6. Vanguard Veterans Squad with Jump Packs
7. Centurion Assault Squad
8. Centurion Devastator Squad
9. Devastator Squad
10. Whirlwind
11. Predator Destructor
12. Predator Annihilator
13. Vindicator
14. Rhino
15. Razorback (God knows who can use this vehicle in the new book)
16. Stormraven
17. Stormhawk
18. Stormtalon

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're gone. Most things are gone. It's almost 100% Primaris 100% of the time (particularly from an infantry perspective).



Looking at the contents, we can see the following First Born units remain:

1. Sicarius
2. Lysander
3. Vulkan He'stan
4. Chaplain with Jump Pack (for... some reason)
5. Tactical Squad
6. Vanguard Veterans Squad with Jump Packs
7. Centurion Assault Squad
8. Centurion Devastator Squad
9. Devastator Squad
10. Whirlwind
11. Predator Destructor
12. Predator Annihilator
13. Vindicator
14. Rhino
15. Razorback (God knows who can use this vehicle in the new book)
16. Stormraven
17. Stormhawk
18. Stormtalon

Whelp alrighty thank you.

Are Scouts Primaris now too? And their bikes gone? I can't really see the image very well. Sorry.

Chaplain with JP is probably because of Blood Angels Death Company?