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Yeah I was thinking of holding on to at least a couple of Attack Bikes to proxy as Invader ATVs. The base thing is irrelevant since neither model has one, but the Attack Bike has a different footprint and is not as tall so might be a no go in tournaments (although with the provision outlined above like being generous with LOS maybe?). Of course, I already have 3 actual Invaders so maybe it's a moot point for me lol.

Gw specifically referrer to them as proxies for the new models as useing one model to represent another is a proxy though I agree vintage is a better description

I quoted the relevant chiunk of it Vintage must be correct dimensions for gameplay decisions also from your quote even on the correct base most won't be correct dimensions and the above example of an bike/Atv s perfect for why they don't mstch

On a practical level what you could do is convert sometimes adding banners and things to mark correct height and width but that's a significant remodelling job

So how are you guys thinking of dealing with the nerf to Oath of Moment? In my past army I had a lot of kinda "mid strength anti-tank" -- stuff like the Predator autocannon or Desolator superkraks, which are strong weapons but often wound tanks on fours or fives, and Oaths served to allow those weapons to "punch above their weight" when dealing with big targets.

It seems to me that that approach isn't really going to be valid anymore and I'm going to have to take some heavier anti-tank, units that bring their own rerolls, or other support elements.

Units like the Gladiator Lancer, Eradicators, or plasma Inceptors strike me as perhaps in a better spot than most as a result of these changes, since they "bring their own rerolls" via special rules (or just being twin-linked).

Other support elements that might be interesting to include are the Storm Speeder Thunderstrike (+1 to wound for the entire army for a phase vs. a monster or vehicle it hits), Lieutenant with combi-weapon (reroll 1s to wound for any unit targeting an enemy on an objective you specify at the start of the game), or the Razorback (which grants wound rerolls to a disembarking unit against a unit it hit this turn -- useful for Tactical Marines or Devastators).

Lastly, it seems to me that the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders detachments (I don't remember what these are actually called) offer better mitigation to wound issues than some of their counterparts, with either a single reroll that can be allocated to wound if needed (and can often help with damage if not), a flat +1 to wound when stationary for Heavy weapons, or +1 strength at close range.

(The First Company detachment seems unfortunately really weak -- "old Oath of Moment once per game" is an intensely unexciting detachment rule, even if it granted you old Oath every single turn this would still be relevantly a downgrade from old Oath + Gladius...)

Some new points got leaked recently (GW is probably going to officially release them tomorrow) and it's looking more like the Ballistus Dreadnought might be just about our best anti-tank now (at 140 points). For just 10 points more than a Predator I think I would switch (I don't own any Gladiators). Inceptors also got a little bit cheaper, which is nice.

I am looking at the Vanguard options currently and noticed you can toss a Ghostweave Cloak on a Jump Captain with a Fist. Think that is worth 100pt? Lone Operative on such a mobile model seems good.

Pairing that with Shrike and some Jump Intercessors for a couple of mobile units to act as hammer against a slower anvil (Aggressors and some gunline units).



Rough draft - tinkering with strategies/tactics. I would love some input on this direction.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Some new points got leaked recently (GW is probably going to officially release them tomorrow) and it's looking more like the Ballistus Dreadnought might be just about our best anti-tank now (at 140 points). For just 10 points more than a Predator I think I would switch (I don't own any Gladiators). Inceptors also got a little bit cheaper, which is nice.

140 points for a Ballistus Dreadnought is nice -- I believe it has worse damage output and mobility than a Predator Destructor (which is 10 pts cheaper), but the Dreadnought is more resilient thanks to an extra wound and a 2+ save, plus more capable in assault if it comes to that. Both still seem much inferior to the Gladiator Lancer against heavier targets, though.

 Kingsley wrote:
So how are you guys thinking of dealing with the nerf to Oath of Moment? In my past army I had a lot of kinda "mid strength anti-tank" -- stuff like the Predator autocannon or Desolator superkraks, which are strong weapons but often wound tanks on fours or fives, and Oaths served to allow those weapons to "punch above their weight" when dealing with big targets.

Lastly, it seems to me that the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders detachments (I don't remember what these are actually called) offer better mitigation to wound issues than some of their counterparts, with either a single reroll that can be allocated to wound if needed (and can often help with damage if not), a flat +1 to wound when stationary for Heavy weapons, or +1 strength at close range.

Switching to another detachment is my plan. Not sure exactly which will have to experiment but I think the reroll may be best unless you have a lot of Devastator squads or other heavy weapons.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Some new points got leaked recently (GW is probably going to officially release them tomorrow) and it's looking more like the Ballistus Dreadnought might be just about our best anti-tank now (at 140 points). For just 10 points more than a Predator I think I would switch (I don't own any Gladiators). Inceptors also got a little bit cheaper, which is nice.

I am planning 3 Ballistus Dreads; 3 Predators and 1 Vindicator. That should be 1000 points of tanks with the new points costs.

For five points more than a standard Dread the Ballistus is just way better! Double the number of shots at higher strength; 50% more wounds with better save and toughness.
Wisdom of the Ancients just cannot compete. Time to swap over.

Weird little niche thing: it occurs to me that it might be best to put at least one shotgun in any Scout squad you run -- there are enough "actions" in various missions that having an Assault weapon to allow you to advance and still take an action seems quite relevant.

I managed to play my first two games of 10th Edition 40k this week.

Ultramarines vs Blood Angels. Conclusion: Ultramarine Victory 91-27 VP
https://lyracian.blogspot.com/2023/10/wh40k-incursion-ultramarines-vs-blood.html

Ultramarine vs Aeldari. Conclusion: Ultramarine Victory 71-41 VP.
https://lyracian.blogspot.com/2023/10/wh40k-strike-force-ultramarines-vs.html


With Infiltrators, Stealth and Concealed Positions the Sniper Scouts were excellent in both games. Probably the only unit I will miss from those removed.
Compared to the Ballistus Dreadnought the standard Dreadnought is just terrible. With Ballistus going down another 10 points in price I am not sure my three magnetised Dreadnought are ever coming out the box again! They need to get a drastic point cut some time in the future (which I do not see GW giving them). Wisdom of the Ancient only gave me one or two rerolls all game.

In both games first turn Devastator Doctrine was very powerful to get units into position and still shoot. Tactical Doctrine was useful for a few extra shots but not really needed in these games.

Without the re-roll to Wound on Oath I think Lethal Hits from a Lieutenant is going to be my go to. Amusingly he also gives his unit Tactical Doctrine meaning that will still be available to my big shooting unit. It is annoying he cannot join a unit with a librarian though.

 Kingsley wrote:
Weird little niche thing: it occurs to me that it might be best to put at least one shotgun in any Scout squad you run -- there are enough "actions" in various missions that having an Assault weapon to allow you to advance and still take an action seems quite relevant.

Scout squads with at least one shotgun have been doing great work on Secondaries for me. Cheap and cheerful unit with great scoring and board presence utility.

Some thoughts on anti-tank:
2+ save with armor of contempt in cover makes AP2 irrelevant, AP3 twice as effective as AP2, and AP4 still reducible to a 4+. To be good, anti-tank weaponry needs both high strength and good AP.

A ballistus dread targeting a land raider with a corner behind a ruin which hits 4 times still wounds 1.6 times, and scores .72 unsaved attacks, or .44 with armor of contempt. That's about 2 damage on average. It won't do for the really tough targets.

Does anything have S12+ and AP4+? Option A: the lancer. I don't like it because of its struggles against non-marine targets, but its rivals are being knocked down one by one.
Option B: Something that has good AP combined with a wound booster, or something with good strength with an AP booster.
A razorback-disembarking lascannon devastator squad.
A thunderstrike-backed eradicator squad.
A grav cannon devastator squad with storm of fire.
A ballistus dread or 2 backed by a thunderstrike AND storm of fire or anotherstrike.

The Salamanders detachment provides bonuses to wound but not AP, so the detachment favors units that already have great AP but middling strength, namely melta.
Gladius and the ravenguard detachment provide bonuses to AP, rewarding units with great 'strength' but so-so AP, like lascannons or grav cannons.

Option C:
Melee effectively provides 1 more AP since cover doesn't affect melee. Terminator and aggressor squads.

And then the lancer exists if you don't like synergy, but long time readers know my thoughts on the need for higher rate of fire than lancers can provide to deal with targets like Magnus who can blank the first failed save and reroll more than one save. So what am I thinking? Vindicators or lascannon platforms or big eradicator squads backed by a thunderstrike.

The grav cannon devastator squad of which I was a big fan to this point might seem to be a relative winner since it wounds on a 2+ and doesn't need wound rerolls, but only in detachments where a strat (or appropriate stormstrike) can provide 1 more AP like Gladius or raven guard.

The salamanders shoot-back strat goes particularly well with large squads and heavy weapons, which likely won't have to move in the following turn to find good targets. Hellblasters and devastators already being favorites of mine.

With the loss of scout snipers and all decent bike units, marines will struggle to both screen and reach out and score. Yes, scouts are a viable option but they provide little firepower and reslience and OC. I want to suggest another solution that might be worth looking at: black templar Crusader Squads, especially in the salamanders detachment. Permanently rerolling your advance/charge rolls, with a loadout like 2 chanswords, a power fist and pistol, a lascannon/multimelta and a plasma gun, with 10 OC. Power armored. And it's battle line, so you can take 6 of them. That's the screening solution I want to replace attack bikes, a melee threat and part of my anti-tank solution, all for 390 points. Similar to death guard plague marines but cheaper.
Extra bonus: they're basically tactical marines, so you don't have to buy anything new or convert bases.

Speaking of old models on the wrong base, I want to add my $.02 to that conversation: mount your old scout models, base and all, on a larger base. That makes them tournament legal by being both on the right base and about the right height.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, thanks for Tango2 for pointing out the shotgun-on-scout-squad thing. That's a great point, and I'll keep it in mind if I'm not running the Salamanders detachment

New Marine Points!

Hi, what do you think of this 1000 pts ironstorm list ? (with new points)

- Techmarine with Adept of the Omnissiah
- Lt with combi weapon with Master of Machine War
- 5 Intercessors
- 3 Eliminators (las fusils and instigator)
- 3 Eliminators (snipers and instigator)
- Dreadnough Ballistus
- Galdiator Lancer
- 5 terminators (with ML)
- 3 Inceptos with plasma pistols

Thanks !

Is the Instigator worth losing the third shot in the unit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
New Marine Points!

Same as the leaked one?

Completely.

85-point Jump Pack Intercessor squads are a go go!

Things seem aggressively priced.

Looking at the peers of the JP guys. The extra movement, plasma pistols, and impact hits seem pretty nice. Any reason to take foot guys or reivers?

5 Assault Intercessors w/5 Heavy Bolt Pistols & 5 Astartes Chainswords = 80 Points

5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points

"Welcome to 10th Edition where everything's made up and the points don't matter!"

(Although, let's be fair: Has there ever been a reason to take Reivers?)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
5 Assault Intercessors w/5 Heavy Bolt Pistols & 5 Astartes Chainswords = 80 Points

5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points

"Welcome to 10th Edition where everything's made up and the points don't matter!"

(Although, let's be fair: Has there ever been a reason to take Reivers?)

They had some perks in crusade? Free wargear has done them a lot of favors. When you had to pay extra for the grav chutes and/or grapples they went from marginal to flaming garbage. Now they have a ton or deployment/mobility options, access to a decent volume of precision attacks, and the phobos keyword, which opens up a few options?

Not sure if they are worth it. Of the assault options they have different leader options due to their armor which might open us something?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is the Instigator worth losing the third shot in the unit?

In my experience it is great to go far and sometimes doing some secondaries or get back out of LoS. And the instigator guy still shots


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
5 Assault Intercessors w/5 Heavy Bolt Pistols & 5 Astartes Chainswords = 80 Points

5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points

"Welcome to 10th Edition where everything's made up and the points don't matter!"

(Although, let's be fair: Has there ever been a reason to take Reivers?)

Foot guys have OC2 and can reroll wounds if enemy is on an objective

 Nevelon wrote:
Things seem aggressively priced.

Looking at the peers of the JP guys. The extra movement, plasma pistols, and impact hits seem pretty nice. Any reason to take foot guys or reivers?

Short answer - no Reivers are pointless (and inevitably so, when there are 3 units of phobos bolter dudes plus ultra cheap scouts, there has to be a worst option).

Long answer...
Also, foot assault intercessors make for good cheap bodyguards - still very few jump pack/gravis options among named/normal characters. Wound rerolls is one of the better abilities to share with your characters.

 Insularum wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Things seem aggressively priced.

Looking at the peers of the JP guys. The extra movement, plasma pistols, and impact hits seem pretty nice. Any reason to take foot guys or reivers?

Short answer - no Reivers are pointless (and inevitably so, when there are 3 units of phobos bolter dudes plus ultra cheap scouts, there has to be a worst option).

Long answer...

Spoiler:

A 5 man squad with chutes is playable. You can scout move them if you need to extend your screens (such as if your opponent has an obvious strong deepstrike element to their army), and if the screening isn't needed they can go in reserve to drop on an objective/do actions or whatever. A 5 man unit is cheap enough that it doesn't really matter that much that other units can also do these things equally well.

A 10 man squad with certain leaders isn't completely terrible. Phobos Lt (not the Reiver one) can also deepstrike and allows move-shoot-move-charge, making Reivers the "best able to charge out of deepstrike" marine unit. Phobos Libby giving out super stealth is also in the "could work I guess" power level, a full 10 man+leader unit surviving until turn 5 would potentially be ok at mopping up heavily damaged units (just ignore that Incursors can do this but better).

Also, foot assault intercessors make for good cheap bodyguards - still very few jump pack/gravis options among named/normal characters. Wound rerolls is one of the better abilities to share with your characters.

That was my thought as well for the foot intercessors. With the change to oath, RRW is nice to have. And for CC characters on foot, they are not bad to hang with.

I want there to be a niche use for reivers. They have been trash pretty much since release. They have a toolbox of movement options, but besides that don’t offer much. And they exist in a packed field. Oh well. Maybe next codex will be their time to shine.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
5 Assault Intercessors w/5 Heavy Bolt Pistols & 5 Astartes Chainswords = 80 Points

5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points

"Welcome to 10th Edition where everything's made up and the points don't matter!"

(Although, let's be fair: Has there ever been a reason to take Reivers?)

Point of order: you can and absolutely should take a Plasma Pistol and a fist on your foot AssInt sergeants.

And as others have already said, there's some value in the wound rerolls, particularly if you put something like a Captain with them (he can bust Finest Hour and go absolutely sicko mode against an enemy on an objective). Personally I think both jump and foot squads have their place, and they do slightly different jobs. Reivers can go kick rocks though.

Assault Intercessors are better than their JP brethren against certain targets (rerolls matter more than some impact hits vs. GEQ's for instance) but generally speaking JP Intercessors are a nobrainer for a mere 1 ppm more.

Reivers are a joke and has been ever since their introduction in 8th. The only point of them was the deepstrike-then-move-and-charge that they could do with the Phobos(?) Lt. - not sure if that's still doable in the new codex though - and even then, you're still spending a fair amount of points on something that's not very killy.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
5 Assault Intercessors w/5 Heavy Bolt Pistols & 5 Astartes Chainswords = 80 Points

5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points

"Welcome to 10th Edition where everything's made up and the points don't matter!"

(Although, let's be fair: Has there ever been a reason to take Reivers?)

Point of order: you can and absolutely should take a Plasma Pistol and a fist on your foot AssInt sergeants.

And as others have already said, there's some value in the wound rerolls, particularly if you put something like a Captain with them (he can bust Finest Hour and go absolutely sicko mode against an enemy on an objective). Personally I think both jump and foot squads have their place, and they do slightly different jobs. Reivers can go kick rocks though.

HBMC is taking a (justified) shot at the point system, not necessarily these two units. Where you are correct, we should be doing an apples to apples comparison. Where 5 points gets you another pistol and the JPs. IMHO the RR wounds is better the the impact hits, but still, these points are a little bonkers.

We’ll see how long they last.

Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

HeavenLord wrote:
Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

OC is irrelevant if you can't make it to the Objective, which Jump Pack units are considerably better at doing.
Do either of them have abilities that aren't just damage increases?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I am looking at the Vanguard options currently and noticed you can toss a Ghostweave Cloak on a Jump Captain with a Fist. Think that is worth 100pt? Lone Operative on such a mobile model seems good.

Pairing that with Shrike and some Jump Intercessors for a couple of mobile units to act as hammer against a slower anvil (Aggressors and some gunline units).

Spoiler:

Kayvaan Shrike 100
(10) Assault Intercessors w/ Jump Packs 170

Lieutenant w/ Combi-weapon, Shadow War Vet 100

< Infiltrate >
Biologis 55
Gravis Captain w/ Blade Driven Deep 105
(6) Aggressors 220

(5) Infiltrators w/ Helix 100

< Gunline/Backfield >
(10) Hellblasters 250
(5) Heavy Intercessors 105
(2) Eliminators w/ Fusils 150

< Deep Strike >
2x (3) Inceptors 220

< Strategic Reserve >
(6) Eradicators 190

235pt remaining - 100pt of that could be a Smashcaptain, but I feel like maybe it needs more gunline?

Rough draft - tinkering with strategies/tactics. I would love some input on this direction.

Now that points are confirmed, any thoughts on this list?

HeavenLord wrote:
Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

Points should also reflect unit upgrades and additional weaponry. That was my point.

The fact that two units can be near identical in points yet be so vastly different equipment is very stupid.

IIRC Reivers were (arguably) good when deep strike distance was measured diagonally, because you could drop them in just outside of 9" (diagonal) and then charge enemy units on top of buildings or whatever very easily since you got to ignore the vertical distance completely with grapnel launchers. However, that's not how Deep Strike works anymore...