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I fully agree the original Doomrider was... not a good model, but I like to think people can learn from their mistakes.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Unfortunately it would also require EC bikes to go along with him, so it will likely never happen.

Lord Invocatus says hello.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Chaos Marines losing access to their Standard units can't be explained in any way, it's just stupid. I get DG losing bikes. But EC? I even get DG losing Vindicator (even though it was their most used tank...) because there's the crawler with a quite similar role. But EC losing a Helbrute? Cultists? Bikes? Raptors? You know, the guys praying to the god of being fast who had the only named Biker character in the past lose all ways of being fast but the Rhino...

Let's face it it's as if Blood Angels would lose Scouts and Devastators for no reason, while Space wolves lose bikes and Dreads and Black Templars lose Terminators. It just makes no sense at all.
If you want to lean into specializations you'd compare it to Space Wolves losing all aircraft because of old fluff. Black Templars losing all Land Raiders but the Crusader and Blood Angels losing any unit that lacks a jump Pack. Dark Angels lose anything that's not on bike or a terminator because extreme flanderization is apparently fun.

Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.

That said:
- Raptors historically are a 3rd party warband and don't belong to the legion
- Helbrute might be due to the sensory deprivation of being shoved in a box
- Cultists I suspect tend to not live long enough to form units often, look at harp boy
- Bikes I'd wager is almost entirely due to being a 25 year year old kit

Outside of this the "fast" side struggles from the same issue world eaters have. They already have above average movement base, with army wide access to advance and charge. Their core infantry all have scout/infiltrate. How much faster do they need to be without turn 1 charges all day every day?

If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.

Dudeface wrote:

- Cultists I suspect tend to not live long enough to form units often, look at harp boy

Bad example - since there's no Rapturess for the EC, there should be plenty of cultists!

 nathan2004 wrote:
If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.

I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.

Dudeface wrote:
- Helbrute might be due to the sensory deprivation of being shoved in a box

Ben Counter solved that problem like ~20 years ago in Daemon World, though you might make a Darwinian argument for that being an explanation as to why there aren't any Hentaibrutes left now.....

I guess I'll replace Lucius with a Chaos Lord and possibly ally in Noise Marines. There are so many units that will no longer exist in my Emperor's Children army, there is no need to get this codex or updated models. It would be like starting a whole new army which is not something I want to do right now.

Pass for now.

 Overread wrote:
I think its an attempt to make them actually different as opposed to "the same army with a different paint scheme and shoulderpads"


This is just the first step of change and its clear GW focused very much on the marine component of the swapover with models. We kind of saw the same with Slaanesh in AoS - first we got a LOT of demonic leaders and nothing on the troops then we got a LOT of mortal troop followers and updates there.

So chances are this is not a one-and-done but part of an ongoing change and experiment. GW will likely flesh out EC with more and more options as time passes.




IT is curious that they lost one or two options along the way; maybe they really want them to be the glass-canon close combat focused army or all-comers; or perhaps they've new models in mind that might come out in months/years down the road etc...

Them getting new models in the future is guaranteed, I agree. However, in the meantime, I don't think it's right that EC and WE have to live with gimped armies when much of the stuff from the CSM codex is completely fluffy for their themes. World Eaters having only two foot HQ's, with one being a named character, is just insulting and doesn't make any sense.

Dudeface wrote:
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.

Your talking about the faction that had all of its 'traditional' units replaced with over-specialised (and in some cases virtually redundant) Primaris equivalents.

Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

Dudeface wrote:

Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.

For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.

Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.

So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

Yes, from the article

The big draw of this new Detachment is being able to fill half of your army with daemons, despite them having different Faction keywords. Better still, the new Codex: Emperor’s Children contains full datasheets for all of the daemons you’ll need: Daemonettes, Fiends, Seekers, the Keeper of Secrets and Shalaxi Helbane.*

Followed by footnote:

* Expect to see the other Heretic Astartes Legions get the same treatment

 LunarSol wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.

I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.

What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

Depends on which trend you're referring to.

Adding a limited selection of Daemons to the 'dex? Yes, given a footnote confirms this.

Further removing units shared with the CSM list? I hope not, but could go either way at this point.

PenitentJake wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.

For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.

Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.

So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.

9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.

nathan2004 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.

I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.

What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.

They can run their existing collection as 1 thing, the same 1 thing they had in 9th, 8th, uth, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd (my knowledge stops here). A chaos space marine army that's pink. I suspect daemons might be a problem next year though.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).

Slipspace wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).

If they really want to keep people guessing they might remove maulerfiends from WE, but leave forgefiends in.

Dudeface wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?

I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).

If they really want to keep people guessing they might remove maulerfiends from WE, but leave forgefiends in.

Wouldn't be massive surprised if Thousand Sons lost the Maulerfiends but kept the Forgefiend.

As for Emperor's Children and Daemons, the regular ally rules are part of the Daemons index - Daemonic Pact, which just requires your army to have the "Chaos" keyword.
Thousand Sons and Deathguard don't have any special mention within their indices about including daemons, but are called out as only being allowed to have the god aligned ones as part of the daemon rules.

So any EC detachment can have up to 25% Daemons (with a 1:1 battle line to non-battleline requirement) - Carnival of Chaos gives you twice as much and removes this restriction to let you more easily take the Greater Daemons and have them interact more with your army.

I fully expect to see a revised Daemons index within the next month or two.

1) Slaanesh daemon datasheets had some fairly significant balance tweaks that would be odd not to carry over, especially Shalaxi who has been problematic in the meta
2) The daemonic pact ally rules no longer function for EC as they're based on use with the CSM codex. With daemons in the legion codexes those ally rules may be removed entirely
3) The EC daemons now have a SUMMONED keyword and no clear interactions within the codex. It's plausible that all other daemons will get this, and also that it is intended for use with Grey Knights when their codex arrives

Dudeface wrote:

9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.

This is why I was never too concerned about WE not getting units like bikers or raptors. It's pretty obvious that GW have kept a bunch of ktis back in the pipeline so they can dripfeed out releases in future, and I fully expect to see things like Berzerkers on Juggernauts sooner or later. As much as it sucks to only have a few options, it would also suck to be encouraged to buy really old kits that then quickly become sidelined by something else in the same role the following edition.

I can't imagine Thousand Sons will lose helbrutes. Not after the success of Space Marine 2 and all the iconic 1k Sons Helbrute action.

Isn't there a rumor that the 1k Sons are gaining Automata?

What would that replace in their old list?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Isn't there a rumor that the 1k Sons are gaining Automata?

What would that replace in their old list?

Ideally? Nothing.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Isn't there a rumor that the 1k Sons are gaining Automata?

What would that replace in their old list?

Ideally? Nothing.

But it will.

Dudeface wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.

For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.

Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.

So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.

9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.

nathan2004 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.

I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.

What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.

They can run their existing collection as 1 thing, the same 1 thing they had in 9th, 8th, uth, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd (my knowledge stops here). A chaos space marine army that's pink. I suspect daemons might be a problem next year though.

You picked an interesting hill to die on. They’ve completely separated cult marines and taking certain HQ’s to make them troops was the way to go imo. Not the approach they’re taking now.

I'd be happy if they allowed allies from CSM, even if it was only a small part of the force. At least then you could fake having EC Hellbrutes.

Was the Hellbrute really that integral to everyone's lists? I didn't really see many when playing against CSM armies.

Dudeface wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Isn't there a rumor that the 1k Sons are gaining Automata?

What would that replace in their old list?

Ideally? Nothing.

But it will.

How do you know that? TS is already a very small army, so why would anything need to be cut?

 nathan2004 wrote:

You picked an interesting hill to die on. They’ve completely separated cult marines and taking certain HQ’s to make them troops was the way to go imo. Not the approach they’re taking now.

You can still take Cult Marines in CSM, they just aren't Battleline.
So the only change from how that army would have worked is that you can't take the one special character the Legions would get.
You don't get the new toys which you can always sub in as proxies anyway.
So the only real issue that will be there is you can't play in GW sanctioned environments, which I'm assuming you weren't doing anyway.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Was the Hellbrute really that integral to everyone's lists? I didn't really see many when playing against CSM armies.

Probably not of the lists (not that I would know anyway) but more of the background. Dreadnoughts are immensely iconic for SMs and imho the lore of the chaos versions did a good job of perverting that concept fittingly
GW also has the tendency of doing a 180° on everything if it goes against something that they are doing right now. Mechanicus using other imperial tanks like Land Raiders? Never happened, they just use hovercrafts. So while legends exist there is a real chance that you not just can't use your EC dreads and daemon engines but that you never were supposed to have them in the first place.