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 Insularum wrote:

Billicus wrote:
Guess it's impossible to make Mutilators that don't look completely gak. Maybe time to retire the concept.

I quite like them, but I'll still be disappointed as they almost certainly won't be usable for World Eaters

They absolutely won't be, though I imagine a lot of people would feel they'd compete too much with Eightbound for a niche.

Yeah I'm doubting that WE will get access to them, even though it wasn't that long since world eater mutilators were mentioned in a black library book.

There's certainly some room to distinguish them from 8B/X8B on the tabletop. Eightbound are fast and relatively squishy while mutilators would be much tankier. Also the current Eightbound datasheets are written as focused infantry OR vehicle killing roles, while fleshmetal weapons should be able to switch roles on the fly.

The problem with Oblit/Mutilators is (and always has been) that they don't lean hard enough into the body horror aspect of them. They're meant to be horrific fusions of flesh and metal and daemonic essence, and as such they should be incredibly off putting to look at. Repulsive even. Yet they never are.


Ideally you want to see flesh growing into armour plates and weapons being subsumed into a fleshy mass of arms/shoulders/wherever. The 3rd edition Oblits came closest to capturing the proper feeling for them, but they sculptor didn't go far enough and the flesh itself is a bit scattered, the 6th edition mutilators also almost captured the right feel. But those sculpts just generally aren't great.
The 8th ed Oblits and these new Muties are just slabs of armour over the weird flesh. There's very little actual fusion going on. They've ended up looking like some over roided marine that has just had some armour plates slapped on as protection.

I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.

 Snrub wrote:
The problem with Oblit/Mutilators is (and always has been) that they don't lean hard enough into the body horror aspect of them. They're meant to be horrific fusions of flesh and metal and daemonic essence, and as such they should be incredibly off putting to look at. Repulsive even. Yet they never are.


Ideally you want to see flesh growing into armour plates and weapons being subsumed into a fleshy mass of arms/shoulders/wherever. The 3rd edition Oblits came closest to capturing the proper feeling for them, but they sculptor didn't go far enough and the flesh itself is a bit scattered, the 6th edition mutilators also almost captured the right feel. But those sculpts just generally aren't great.
The 8th ed Oblits and these new Muties are just slabs of armour over the weird flesh. There's very little actual fusion going on. They've ended up looking like some over roided marine that has just had some armour plates slapped on as protection.

Well put. And the end result looks blocky and clumsy, rather than intimidating.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.

...please don't mention Slaanesh and bananas in the same sentence.

Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?

 Dysartes wrote:
Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?

The tools have nothing to do with this issue.

I'd wager it's a case of the unfortunate trend towards visual homogenisation of certain factions compounded by cleanly separated volumes being significantly easier to paint for the average GW consumer than continuous material transitions.

GW could have done Gal Vorbak in plastic. They just chose not to.

I agree. The hyper fixation on consistent design language across a range has strayed into homogenisation with a touch of flanderisation in my opinion. It’s stifling creativity.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.

...please don't mention Slaanesh and bananas in the same sentence.

Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?

No, absolutely not. GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

Its a design decision.

robbienw wrote:


No, absolutely not. GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

Its a design decision.

Yup, GW has been using CAD sculpting for a long time. I remember when the plastic Carnifex was released and they had an entire article in White Dwarf about designing it in CAD.

Fun fact, the very first thing they released that was designed in CAD was the Black Templars vehicle addon sprue. I believe it was released in 2005.

And the last traditionally sculpted plastic kit was the Giant, right?

 His Master's Voice wrote:
And the last traditionally sculpted plastic kit was the Giant, right?

I'm not sure, when was it released?

I think the last traditional sculpt for 40k was either the Harlequin Solitaire or the Tech Priest Dominus.

I suspect they just knew the old kit isn't well liked and played it too safe on the replacement. There were almost certainly several concepts drawn up and its very possible that none of them crossed the uncanny valley this unit is trying to land in.

robbienw wrote:
GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

Its a design decision.

Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

robbienw wrote:
GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

Its a design decision.

Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.

This is also a HIPS issue. It's really hard to do really good fur without undercuts.

The plastic fur from the old goblin wolfrider steeds is still infinitely better than the current stuff somehow.



It's how the strands aren't as thick as a wrist.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

robbienw wrote:
GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

Its a design decision.

Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.

This is also a HIPS issue. It's really hard to do really good fur without undercuts.

But only in part. The sausage fur on the Varagyr is resin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

robbienw wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
And the last traditionally sculpted plastic kit was the Giant, right?

I'm not sure, when was it released?

I think the last traditional sculpt for 40k was either the Harlequin Solitaire or the Tech Priest Dominus.

If it was the Solitaire, kudos to the sculptor. Brilliant model.

robbienw wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
And the last traditionally sculpted plastic kit was the Giant, right?

I'm not sure, when was it released?

I think the last traditional sculpt for 40k was either the Harlequin Solitaire or the Tech Priest Dominus.

The Giant was 2006 I think. I remember an article in White Dwarf talking about it being the last physical 3-up sculpt that was pantographed for mould cutting, with some commentary from Brian Nelson himself.

What do people find to be good GW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).

The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.

Is there already a rumour when the new tyranid prime with the lash whip will be released?

Haven't seen anything.

The nearest we've had was a rumour that Tyranids would also get a Red Terror model. Maybe that's related to the Prime's release, or it could be next edition.

Personally I don't see how either of them realistically fit into the known end of edition books from GW & current rumours. Either there's an extra book coming we haven't yet heard about, or the models tie into some other release like Kill Team.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do people find to be good GW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).

For my own tastes, I don't believe there are any properly good examples of this within GW's range. Nothing that really invokes an unsettling skin prickle or sense of unease. Which I have to imagine isn't necessarily easy to do like it can be with 2d art. So I certainly don't hold it against any sculptor if they can't give me the creeps.
Vashtorr is, appropriately, possibly the best overall example of flesh/machine symbiosis. But I think he's more flesh/machine integration, rather then flesh merging or fusing into machine or vice/versa.
The backpacks on the current possessed quite good examples of flesh/machine fusion. And from memory, the old plastic possessed had some interesting bits in their kit.*
The chaos dreadnoughts also aren't half bad. Both multipart and DV versions.

But both the possessed and chaos dreadnoughts both largely suffer from the problem as the oblits and mutilators. It's just slabs of armour tacked on over warped flesh. No real interplay between them for the most part. And that's not to say I think any of the above models are bad. They just don't push the envelope enough.
As far as just weirdo fleshy machines go however, the Blight/Bloat drones are pretty cool. As are the Blight Haulers. I've long had a soft spot for the oft-maligned soul grinder.

That being said, I do think that GW do warping flesh quite well though. The Accursed Cultists are fething amazing. And, for an older kit, the chaos spawn still hold up as pretty freaky looking when you combine the right parts (but they can also look fething dumb as gak if you don't). The necromunda Malstrain genestealers are all top-tier freaks, with the Coalescence excelling therein. The Skaven brood terror is also just generally excellent and the hell pit abomination has a lovely quiet throwback to The Thing with its mass of rat heads. And as mentioned eariler in the thread, the infernal enrapturess and her human harp are also excellent.


*I actually really used to like both the Mhara Ghal and the Gal Vorbak as examples of good flesh/armour fusion. But then I had the chance last year to actually behold and hold them in the resin and was quite surprised to find that I didn't like them nearly as much as I had previously. They're quite a confused mess of surface textures and bits that almost seem tacked on or otherwise at odds with the rest of the sculpt. The Mhara Ghal especially is quite incoherent from a sculpting point of view. The sub-par FW paintjob actually does a lot of work hiding a lot of stuff.

 Astmeister wrote:
Is there already a rumour when the new tyranid prime with the lash whip will be released?

Left to release we have:

- xenos characters
- custodes box
- custodes wave
- 30k marine tanks
- mechanicum wave
- Red corsairs
- eldar
- other boxes for the campaign book
- bone reapers
- blood bowl stuffs

We then need to get iron warriors in. We can also extrapolate all the 40k bits drop before 11th which is likely early June.

Given the eldar and red corsairs need to be out before the eye of terror stuff, we know the eye of terror needs to come by May likely, I'd guess both corsairs end of feb/early march, xenos characters land late march, eye of terror bits in early/mid april so the 40k slate is fully shown and clean ready for the 11th release window.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do people find to be good GW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).

The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.

Gal Vorbak are a great infantry sized example.

Vashtorr is a good mid point between full on melding and the Mutilator approach.

I completely agree this is not a CAD limitation and clearly a design decision (I said as much above) but this:

robbienw wrote:


You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

is is somewhat of an overstatement. Fur and (to a lesser extent) hair still look like chunky amateur plastic gak toy in CAD after all this time.

Roll Three Dice wrote:
I completely agree this is not a CAD limitation and clearly a design decision (I said as much above) but this:

robbienw wrote:


You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.

is is somewhat of an overstatement. Fur and (to a lesser extent) hair still look like chunky amateur plastic gak toy in CAD after all this time.

A poor workman blames the tools.

There is nothing inherent to CAD design that stops them making decent looking fur.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do people find to be good GW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).

The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.

I would say it's the paint scheme more than anything. Different painters can make those models look great. I think adding gloss to the flesh is the trick.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do people find to be good GW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).

The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.

That's a good point. I wonder how these Mutilators (or Obliterators) would look if I painted them like my Hellbrute

Pretty sure damn near anything would look good if painted like your Hellbrute.