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I feel like part of Chaos has always been their antiquated marine armour and styles. Primaris being corrupted makes sense and its surely has/will happen in the setting.

However it just feels "wrong" for it to become a standard thing and to make Chaos more "modern"

 Ashiraya wrote:

For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.

Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.

Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.

I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal. I would still agree that scale-creep needs no justification, since many, many other model ranges have increased significantly in size without background justification.

It's an interesting feeling watching the "current" game of 40K move away from me as they upscale all the models to be incompatible with my existing miniatures and scenery. Slightly melancholic but also a bit of a relief that I can just stop caring.

What I do remember well is people on this forum (most of whom don't post any more for whatever reason) outright denying that there was scale creep or that the scale creep would continue or spread to other ranges.

Ah well. I hope the new bigger-sized 40K stays around for a long time and people can use their models for as long as I used my 2e models.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's an interesting feeling watching the "current" game of 40K move away from me as they upscale all the models to be incompatible with my existing miniatures and scenery. Slightly melancholic but also a bit of a relief that I can just stop caring.

What I do remember well is people on this forum (most of whom don't post any more for whatever reason) outright denying that there was scale creep or that the scale creep would continue or spread to other ranges.

Ah well. I hope the new bigger-sized 40K stays around for a long time and people can use their models for as long as I used my 2e models.

I mean in the end it's just a question of taste. I'm still using 3rd edition Plague Marines side by side with 8th ed Plague Marines just fine. At table view the larger 32mm bases did more to make the newer models appear bigger than their actual size, so if you put older models on 32mm it all still works for me.

The size difference between post 7th edition marines overall is overall very small in my view. Whether you take late 7th ed. Thousand Sons, HH Marines, CSM or Primaris, they're all about even, just like Marines from 2nd to 7th edition were. You have some outliers in characters, terminators and other special stuff, but power armoured marines are overall the same.

It's the 32mm bases and the spread-eagled poses all the models are in that forces you to use them that is the issue for me. I find them much less practical for play and they'd require me to redesign all of my terrain to accommodate the larger base size for standard infantry models. I'm not as bothere by height differences as I am base size bloat, and I'm annoyed at the design choice to have everyone power stancing to ensure you can't use smaller bases. Also the game design choices to make base size gameplay relevant when they know they're changing base sizes, forcing people to rebase when they could easily write the rules such that base size is irrelevant (lots of other games manage this, so it is certainly a choice). I just find it pretty hostile, like GW are telling me to move on by making continuing a massive pain in my arse when it doesn't have to be.

And like, alright, I get it. I'm an old fart and they want new blood and it's working great for them, clearly! The game and the minis are more popular than they ever were, obviously my tastes are old fashioned now and I'm stuck in my ways. But even when they brought back the Old World, which is a nostalgia product aimed basically directly at me, they still did ridiculous base size nonsense while also having base size be gameplay relevant. Argh. Why GW? Change bases and have the game be more element based or keep bases the same and have them be relevant!

And that's honestly fine. I'm 41, been playing since the 90s, it'd be weird honestly if the game continued to cater to me - GW have made their money on me already.

But sometimes I do look at stuff and think "Oh, cool, new plastic Sisters." and then realised they are all powerstancing on massive bases and sigh and move on.

Apologies for the minor derail - that scaling image just made me think of that!

 Da Boss wrote:
It's the 32mm bases and the spread-eagled poses all the models are in that forces you to use them that is the issue for me. I find them much less practical for play and they'd require me to redesign all of my terrain to accommodate the larger base size for standard infantry models. I'm not as bothere by height differences as I am base size bloat, and I'm annoyed at the design choice to have everyone power stancing to ensure you can't use smaller bases. Also the game design choices to make base size gameplay relevant when they know they're changing base sizes, forcing people to rebase when they could easily write the rules such that base size is irrelevant (lots of other games manage this, so it is certainly a choice). I just find it pretty hostile, like GW are telling me to move on by making continuing a massive pain in my arse when it doesn't have to be.

And like, alright, I get it. I'm an old fart and they want new blood and it's working great for them, clearly! The game and the minis are more popular than they ever were, obviously my tastes are old fashioned now and I'm stuck in my ways. But even when they brought back the Old World, which is a nostalgia product aimed basically directly at me, they still did ridiculous base size nonsense while also having base size be gameplay relevant. Argh. Why GW? Change bases and have the game be more element based or keep bases the same and have them be relevant!

And that's honestly fine. I'm 41, been playing since the 90s, it'd be weird honestly if the game continued to cater to me - GW have made their money on me already.

But sometimes I do look at stuff and think "Oh, cool, new plastic Sisters." and then realised they are all powerstancing on massive bases and sigh and move on.

Apologies for the minor derail - that scaling image just made me think of that!

I partly get that.
Personally my older Marines still continue to be on their 25mm and noone in my gaming group bats an eye, in fact it's the same for them. We try to be consistent within one squad, but within an army it's often quite the mix. Also, with GW increasing the base size on larger models as well (going from 40mm to 50mm on Chaos spawn for example) you'd actively have to track what they write on their page to know which base size might be the current one - and who in their right mind would do that? (Especially when GW themselves says every edition: Use the base your mini came with.)
Also, transporting a larger army with 32mm and larger bases sucks. It needs far more space than 25mm.

Having said all that: Minis on 32mm bases just look pretty nice. I don't know why really and I won't rebase anything (especially since many of my older 40K minis sit on sculpted resin bases) but seeing my newer Ork army on 32mm I'd have to admit it just looks better than with feet hanging out.

Honestly, I think the base size increase in TOW is less of an issue, for two reasons:
1, There were a lot of units which were a pain to rank up on the older base sizes, and which rank up easier on the newer bases.
2, Third parties have been doing movement trays which have a spacer element built in, so you could use your models on the smaller base size without needing to rebase them.

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d guess it’s not a thing in 11th. 10th has almost completely removed it.

The word Primaris only appears 20 times in the 220 pages of Codex Space Marines, and almost half of those instances are in two paragraphs on page 11 and some of the others are just explaining what kits were used in spotlighted kitbashes.

Dropping those paragraphs and just using "Ultima-founding" in a half dozen variant chapter descriptions would be a 3 minute editing job for the 11th ed Codex.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal.

When Fabius got his hands on some Primaris, he outright states it would be easy to replicate but won't because it's inferior to his own work. Now a lot of that statement is justification to not just make Chaos Primaris, but the groundwork is there for having some Chaos apothecary figure it out.

 stahly wrote:
So here is a little scale comparison graphic I made for my review of the new Red Corsair kits. Even without the tactical rock, the Raiders are definitely bigger than the Legionaries. Proportions are more akin to the Emperor's Children Tormentors but without the weird skinny legs. Pretty much Primaris eye level.

I have high-res sprue images of all the new kits from the Battleforce plus Huron Blackheart and the Masters of the Maelstrom, inc. a list of all possible build options and a 4K unboxing video here: https://taleofpainters.com/2026/02/review-huron-blackheart-and-the-masters-of-the-maelstrom-lords-of-the-maelstrom-battleforce/

Thank you, this is very helpful. And I am glad we finally have properly scaled chaos marines that are not dwarfed by the loyalists, it is just a shame that they didn't do the new HH marines and the relatively new las CSM revamp in this scale already.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.

Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.

Why? A hundred years is an awful long time, and whole chapters turning to Chaos has happened every now and again.

Primaris are not mentioned to be incorruptible the way for example Grey Knights are in any material I am aware of.

And these guys are still a step below Chosen in eliteness. 3W, yes, but much lower damage output.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.

Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.

Why? A hundred years is an awful long time, and whole chapters turning to Chaos has happened every now and again.

Primaris are not mentioned to be incorruptible the way for example Grey Knights are in any material I am aware of.

And these guys are still a step below Chosen in eliteness. 3W, yes, but much lower damage output.

Why would the 'reveal' of Chaos Primaris being in the form of upscaled non-Mk.X models which GW hasn't even hinted at being Primaris, rather than in literally any other form be bad? Reeeally..?

Would it even need a reveal? They're just Space Marines. With some physical improvements, sure, but why would they be anything special when it comes to corruption? We know that they are just as susceptible to geneseed flaws, for example, even though Cawl initially hoped otherwise.

I don't think it's a big deal. I am just speculating it's why they are bigger, since otherwise GW has been remarkably consistent about firstborn scale ever since the big CSM update. The new Grey Knights follow it (or rather, the one new Grey Knight...), the masses and masses of Heresy firstborn follow it. Exceptions have so far mainly been with cases like the Emperor's Children and some of the Death Guard, where the variation seems to deliberately indicate corruption (sinuous distended slender EC, bloated bulky DG) but here they are emphasised as uncorrupted.

chaos marines use stolen geneseed a lot iirc? presumably if they steal the geneseed from dead loyalist primaris marines, wouldn't the new Chaos marine created from said geneseed turn out as as primaris sized?

The Geneseed itself isn’t implanted. Rather, it’s used to culture/clone new organs.

Whilst I can’t back this up with a solid reference? Traitors (or at least Traitor Apothecaries) could well culture/clone the new organs. But they’d lack the knowledge of how to implant them.

And any surgery where you don’t know what you’re doing, let alone surgery as invasive as making a new Astartes, is super risky.

There’s also the hypno-indoctrination which helps the Marine regulate his new physiology as each implant is made. If you’re not completely sure what this is, or what it does? How can you do the hypno-indoctrination.

Not to mention you may have A Number 23 Gubbins, and a fair idea of where it goes. But not when it goes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Geneseed itself isn’t implanted. Rather, it’s used to culture/clone new organs.

Whilst I can’t back this up with a solid reference? Traitors (or at least Traitor Apothecaries) could well culture/clone the new organs. But they’d lack the knowledge of how to implant them.

And any surgery where you don’t know what you’re doing, let alone surgery as invasive as making a new Astartes, is super risky.

There’s also the hypno-indoctrination which helps the Marine regulate his new physiology as each implant is made. If you’re not completely sure what this is, or what it does? How can you do the hypno-indoctrination.

Not to mention you may have A Number 23 Gubbins, and a fair idea of where it goes. But not when it goes.

So about as accurate as Chaos sorcery, which is a roll of the dice Chaos marines are quite happy to risk!

Traitors definitely create new marines. Both in the infamously well known ways that don't bear repeating, and also just normally. A big chunk of the Night Lords omnibus is about attempting this. We also know they use lots of stolen geneseed, like Honsou who is a chimera of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist.

Also, they simply wouldn't do hypno-indoctrination. Especially since most of the surviving heresy guys wouldn't have had it done to them.

And one more important bit: we do know about chaos primaris as well. The murder curse turned an entire crusade fleet, including primaris marines and sisters, to chaos. Only the custodes/grey knights amongst the fleet were immune.

 cole1114 wrote:
We also know they use lots of stolen geneseed, like Honsou who is a chimera of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist.

Yes, but (Spoiler for those that haven't read Angel Exterminatus)

Huron himself was having his apothecaries stealing gene seed from other chapters during the Badab Wars (Imperial Armory books). I believe it was the Salamanders that caught them red handed. So they definitely have no qualms about it.

I briefly seen this weekend in FB an image of a box set with these lizzies mercs as a unit... I was in a hurry so didn't check any further. I cant find it now but seems like the lack of news about it suggests its AI or something... Im really getting annoyed with that BS.
Would be cool to have a unit of those though.

It's not exactly a stretch to suppose a newly founded Primaris chapter has some flaw in their creation, combined with a specific corrupting event early in their existence that turns them to Chaos. There are plenty of possible reasons for Chaos Primaris and I don't think timeframe is a major problem.

From a narrative perspective it would be interesting. It would show that Cawl's creations are not as stable as he thinks, which lines up with them still having the flaws of their parent geneseed.

In the real world, we know GW will keep going with the scale creep whenever new models are released. They don't have to justify it, though I wouldn't mind some CSM models that aren't covered in baroque trim!

 cole1114 wrote:
Traitors definitely create new marines. Both in the infamously well known ways that don't bear repeating, and also just normally. A big chunk of the Night Lords omnibus is about attempting this. We also know they use lots of stolen geneseed, like Honsou who is a chimera of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist.

Also, they simply wouldn't do hypno-indoctrination. Especially since most of the surviving heresy guys wouldn't have had it done to them.

And one more important bit: we do know about chaos primaris as well. The murder curse turned an entire crusade fleet, including primaris marines and sisters, to chaos. Only the custodes/grey knights amongst the fleet were immune.

You have to the hypno-indoctrination. Not for “The Emperor Is Great” reasons. But for regulating their new, enhanced physiology. For us regular smelly hoomans, regulating heartbeat, breathing, kidney and liver function and all those biological systems are autonomic. The result of a chain of evolution dating back millions upon millions of years, right from the very earliest and rudimentary forms of life.

You can’t just go bunging in new organs and have them work. Well. Actually. You probably could. You just wouldn’t live terribly long (ref not actually urban legends of idiots trying to swap out their Gentleman’s Excuse Me for something larger from another species).

Heck, even with organ donation? To prevent rejection you need as close a match as possible and immune suppression drugs.

On Sorcery? A calculated risk. Not always sufficiently calculated, sure. But Geneseed, especially Primaris Geneseed, is a stupendously rare resource. It’s not something you can really afford to risks with. It may even be the sort of resource of such value you’re genuinely better off trading to the likes of Fabius Bile, either for some other resource or for favours/work done.

I’ve long argued its rarity, and the strictly limited headcount allowed by the Codex Astartes and wider Imperium, is why Chapters have such rigorous recruitment. You’ve a strictly finite resource with which to make new Astartes. The other half, regular smelly hoomans, are ten a penny. So of course you’re fussy. You need to identify not only a potential recruit with the physicality to more likely survive the process, but of the right mindset to be malleable without being a moron.

Chaos Marines may face a harder time there. Not only is any gene seed not captured from fallen Loyalists more likely to be degraded and mutated, but if you’re recruiting from among mortal followers? So are they.

Hence, I’m of the opinion that getting hold of Primaris Geneseed is one thing. Knowing what, when and how of the new implants and the necessary hypno-indoctrination is quite another.

I can see Chaos or Renegade forces gathering it whenever the opportunity presents. And we know Geneseed is good for long term storage. But not, for now, really being able to do much with those stocks. Or at least the fancy Primaris Organs. Which is another element here. We know there are Chapters out there that have lost certain organs. But they still of course create new Astartes with the ones we do have. So we can’t rule out that captured Primaris Geneseed is used, but only to create Firstborn equivalents.

Wasteful? Yes. But Perhaps essential all the same when your option is leave a few organs in the fridge, or go without new recruits. And of course, by no means would this be a One Approach For All Thing.

Well established Chaos Forces (remnant Legions, Black Legion) may have sufficient strength and facilities to be storing it up until they figure it out, or a currently loyalist Apothecary with the know how turns traitor.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.

Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.

I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal. I would still agree that scale-creep needs no justification, since many, many other model ranges have increased significantly in size without background justification.

You just open up the Space_Marine.ini file and change Primaris=0 to Primaris=1.

 Overread wrote:
I feel like part of Chaos has always been their antiquated marine armour and styles. Primaris being corrupted makes sense and its surely has/will happen in the setting.

However it just feels "wrong" for it to become a standard thing and to make Chaos more "modern"

Andy Chambers in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex stated the whole feel for the Chaos Space Marines was to seem archaic and anachronistic compared to the "modern" 40k era, a part of the distant past that just refused to go away. Meanwhile from the CSM perspective, they keep using their old patterns of armor and weapons because they were more rugged/easy to maintain and/or because they refused to move on mentally past the Heresy, and are still consumed with hatred for the Imperium.

 NAVARRO wrote:
I briefly seen this weekend in FB an image of a box set with these lizzies mercs as a unit... I was in a hurry so didn't check any further. I cant find it now but seems like the lack of news about it suggests its AI or something... Im really getting annoyed with that BS.
Would be cool to have a unit of those though.

I saw at image on FB.

It was just a fan made Photoshop.

(And at least the one I saw said so on the image tbf.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/hd2ygsuz/defend-the-cadian-gate-with-the-archmagos-terminus-and-new-skitarii-heavies/

New Archmagos and heavy weapon Skitarii.

Neat, I don't think we even had leaks of these. Nice to have a non-Cawl Admech character.

Dang those are cool dudes

Except GW can't get out of its dumb skin and of course put a completely unnecessary tiny extra gun on the shoulders.

 The Phazer wrote:

New Archmagos and heavy weapon Skitarii.

Neat, I don't think we even had leaks of these. Nice to have a non-Cawl Admech character.

"Admech HQ and dual-build skitarii kit" was a Valrak rumour 2-3 months ago, though he made it sound more like they'd be a melee unit.

It seems the rumoured mid range Knight chassis may be revealed next week, based on the final paragraph of the AdMech post

The new Skitarii look like something pulled right from the old Mail Order catalogues. Lovely designs.