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 insaniak wrote:
Gotta be honest, this is not a surprising plot twist. Something about WGA always did feel like Wargames Factory.

And people were making that comparison pretty much from the start, IIRC.

Yeah, can't say I'm really surprised. I know there were some denials from WGA staff back in the day, but can't be bothered to delve into those to find out if those were lies, or just carefully worded technically true statements. Either way, enough overlap between the companies to assume something was linked, though it was unclear what.

Without full knowledge on the Wargames Factory situation, I'll largely continue the same as I have before: will buy the occasional set when it looks good. WGA's offerings are better than WFactory's, but still hit and miss for me. Generally improving though, as they have been since before WGA was a thing I suppose.

As for Reidy, while WGA is obviously more competently run than WF seems to have been, the full statement does seem a bit heavy on the fingerpointing and somewhat lacking in self reflection in places. Will take a small serving of salt as a side dish.

To be honest I am a bit suspicious that someone who supposedly accumulated so much debt was back in the business after such a short time by getting a new job. If I was in the same situation I would likely spend my entire life working to pay for everything, but I guess the US is different.

That aside, what surprises me the most is that the reactions here and on the wargames atlantic article are mostly positive when at the beginning lots of people wanted to stay away from the company due to potential links to Reidy.

Didn't see any similarities myself apart from the desire to find a way for customers to vote for next sets, which, in the era of crowdfunds, doesn't stand out as much as it did in 2010.

What's next tho? Archon turns out to be Prodos?

Well as everything on the internet, you believe and trust at your own risk. If I received any correspondence requesting sensible details etc from something happened more than a decade ago I would send it to spam and block it.

Interesting. I hope this all works out as well as possible for the parties involved.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I find it kind of funny that in today's world the guy moved around in the wargaming hobby all the time and simply switched his name to not be recognized - and it worked! Did he grow a mustache or something?

Not unheard of in the industry. There's a rules writer at GW that used to wear a fake moustache and use a fake name for Guild Ball events because he wasn't supposed to be seen playing anything other than GW games.

The fact that Tony/Hudson can come back from all that loss and get shafted financially. Is.. well it's inspiring.

All the best for WGA! They're making it, finally making it. In fact, Atlantic Digital seem to make too much stuff imo.

Well, can't say I'm that suprised. I'm one that was skeptical from the start, and there were definitely others. I'm sure someone could dig up the treads at the time. IIRC the sprue similarities (rounded vs the more traditional flat sided used by GW / Renedra / Victrix I think were one thing brought up. That they orginally did casting in China was another.

It does seem they have learned a thing or two along the way amongst their failures and are now able to deliver products to customers. I've only got limited stuff from WGA, though have been considering more. This admission doesn't really change that too much for me. On the plus side they seem to be coming out and trying to make things right. On the other hand you have to realize they were lying to customers for years. And life isn't a Disney movie where redemption just happens at the end. I certainly wouldn't back any crowdfunding they did in the future, and I'm sure a few Damned backers might be reflecting how lucky they were they got their stuff. But at retail if they have things that are good and no one else does, I wouldn't say I'd avoid buying it out of principle.

I was not aware of this controversy, but I love Wargames Atlantic products and any attempt to make up for a failed KickStarter is good in my eyes.

Wow, I remember the Shock Troops from WF, I had loads!!!

In my memory I used to mistake both companies as the same.

So, Necromancers?

Archon/Prodos
New Wave/ CMON
Maelstrom Games/ Mierce

Are there more?

I don't have a problem with the tenacity to keep trying.
I have a problem with the obfuscation of identity.
Extremely glad I didn't contribute to the Damned crowd-funding, or Defiance back then.

Puts a damper on my desire to buy The Barons' War direct as well.
Maybe if I see it on a shelf, at discount.

What an excellent reveal!!
So rarely do we see someone come back and really try to make the past right. Count me impressed.

I do think Tony's story is a little self-serving in the telling and the actual apology is minimal. However, WGA has a good track record of delivery, quality and customer service. If Tony comes through with refunds for backers and continues to do good work then I personally see no reason not to welcome him back into the good graces of the wargaming community.

What I really want to know is will we someday see the "Dreamforge" Leviethan models back in production and the not-MAK egg suits finally make it into production? I love my Leviathan and I really wanted those Egg suits, but saw what was coming well-enough to not back that failure.

I wonder also if Ken of Proxie Models will be made whole or if that was more the post-Tony Defiance's responsibility.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558217.page#6159409

 insaniak wrote:
Gotta be honest, this is not a surprising plot twist. Something about WGA always did feel like Wargames Factory.

And people were making that comparison pretty much from the start, IIRC.

Yeah, we had this discussion for sure, but I think maybe our conclusion was that they were simply using some of the same sculptors?

Heck, maybe plastic versions of the Hudson's Bugs too?

Huh, I had just sort of assumed it was the same people under a new name because so much of the style of the minis and the stuff they were interested in was the same. I didn't realise it was a secret or not well known!

No_Marines_Here wrote:
TIL that Kickstarter has existed for more than 12 years.

From my memory, the first big gaming Kickstarter to grab Dakka’s attention was Sedition Wars back in 2012. What a rollercoaster.

 Da Boss wrote:
Huh, I had just sort of assumed it was the same people under a new name because so much of the style of the minis and the stuff they were interested in was the same. I didn't realise it was a secret or not well known!

I partly, maybe unconsciously had the same impression back when they released their Goblins that fit really well to WGF Orcs, however, the official explanation was that they were based on the same Angus McBride lotr artworks.

I’m pretty floored by this. I (foolishly) invested money in Defiance Games at a time when I didn’t have much. I have personal emails with Tony and was part of a small listserv thing of DG “insiders”. That money I lost in DG was a substantial amount for me at the time.

I’m glad to hear of the redemption arc, and I like to think I have moved past the initial feelings of bitterness and betrayal.

A business failing isn’t a moral failure, and I would extend Tony grace on certain things he did and ways he acted during that period. We are all human, and may not live up to our standards when the squeeze comes.

It takes a certain type of crazy to create something from nothing, and I respect anyone who can.

Coming “clean” to the community wasn’t something he had to do and is a mark in his favor.

After some time, I may go back to buying from WGA again, and wish him and all involved with WGA well.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

No_Marines_Here wrote:
TIL that Kickstarter has existed for more than 12 years.

From my memory, the first big gaming Kickstarter to grab Dakka’s attention was Sedition Wars back in 2012. What a rollercoaster.

I recall watching that from afar.

Selfishly, it did work out well for me in that while I was not a supporter, I later picked up multiple copies of the game for $25 each and made myself a rather nice reinforced platoon that has seen alot of use in my "Mech Attack" convention games:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2016/10/maersk-tesla-corporate-platoon-complete/

The game box figs did require a bit of modification and creative assembly...
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2015/01/sedition-wars-good-deal-for-patien/
... but it was worth it when the game was that cheap.

So, I asked this early on - I straight up asked Hudson 'are you Tony Reidy' - 'Whos that' he creid, and proceeding to get aggressively offensive for the insinuation.

But... this is about to get pretty wild - from a quote by Wargames Factory, in 2011, post Tony's departure

WEB POSTINGS AND FORUM ALLEGATIONS
There is much misinformation as well as some serious allegations being circulated throughout cyberspace regarding the current state of affairs. As the new corporate manager of Wargames Factory, at the appropriate time, I will address all of the false and inaccurate statements and allegations that are being posted on the Wargames Factory website. There are more important and pressing operational matters to deal with right now without getting distracted or involved in a “mudslinging match” with previous management. Defamatory statements made about any individuals will be taken up with legal counsel and dealt with to the fullest extent allowed by law.

Now Wargames Factory didn't disappear. Far from it. They produce all of GWs terrain... and Tonys statement isn't exactly subtle with its accusations - far better then other statements hes done over the years, but... someone really should have been a critical friend on his comms.

Setting all that aside, people have short memories. Prodos are a great example of that, Red Box seems to be another - as long as people get there toys, no one seems to actually... mind? Like I do wonder what it would take for any one/company in the industry to tank themselves so hard, that if they just kept putting out product, it wouldn't just eventually work out.

Lastly, as someone who saw it all - the 500 hundred page thread on Frothers, the back and forth from Tony, spoke about it with Wai Kee at Salute, read all the Torn Armor debacle... I'm baffled why, on a random day in October, Tony suddenly decided to come clean. That to me, is the weirdest part of all this.

The obvious theory would be that someone was about to expose him.

Anyway, even if you believe everything bad ever said about Tony, he would still be more ethical than most of your sources of food, tech and entertainment, so not sure why the desire for moral indignation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also aren't you a stringent defender of Hasslefree lol

"Somehow, Palpatine Tony Reidy returned" was not on my 2025 Bingo card. I guess it's cool to try and clear his name now that WGA has a few solid years of producing and delivering excellent kits, but what a wierd way to go about it. I was never directly affected by the Hardsuit KS mess since I didn't care for the design, but it was impossible to miss the drama at the time. It's downright quaint looking back now, a failed $46K kickstarter compared to what would come with Robotech and Confrontation and Heroquest/Tsuequest and Dust and Fantasy Series 2. Now Mythic and possibly CMON. But I wouldn't blame people for still being upset over Defiance, it was the first real KS crapshow and nobody involved looked good.

I've liked every WGA kit I've bought so far and just ordered some Mounted Serjeants, that's what ultimately matters most to me (and I'm very aware of how selfish that is). As long as they continue to produce quality kits then I'll continue buy them. At retail, that is, hopefully [**edit** - I am dumb and completely forgot that WGA did indeed to a giant kickstarter, ignore this **edit**]

 Kalamadea wrote:
"Somehow, Palpatine ... At retail, that is, hopefully WGA is smart enough to never do a kickstarter. Tony has revealed that he can run a successful model company, but I would never trust him with a crowdfund no matter how well WGA does.

They did though. Well, a gamefound... My order still says "preparing to ship".

 Smokestack wrote:

 Kalamadea wrote:
"Somehow, Palpatine ... At retail, that is, hopefully WGA is smart enough to never do a kickstarter. Tony has revealed that he can run a successful model company, but I would never trust him with a crowdfund no matter how well WGA does.

They did though. Well, a gamefound... My order still says "preparing to ship".

Yeah same. I appreciate someone having the ethics to make the old backers whole, but this (along with the massive delays) does shake my confidence in actually receiving everything.

Also aren't you a stringent defender of Hasslefree lol

As I said last time someone said that - not really. My post histories right there. I've tried to offer perspective - not support.

Anyway, even if you believe everything bad ever said about Tony, he would still be more ethical than most of your sources of food, tech and entertainment, so not sure why the desire for moral indignation.

And if I believe anything Tony said, everything that went wrong was entirely the fault of others...

I see your point, but an informed customer can make choices if they want to. Personally I don't buy from a number of miniatures companies for various reasons (Archon, Red Box, Dreamforge), others probably feel the same around Hasslefree. I wish people were more vocal and clear to help inform others.

Oh crap, I know they are doing models for other companies doing KS, but somehow I completely forgot the Damned kickstarter that is still in process. Much like the Hardsuits, they didn't tickle my fancy and I've mentally skipped over any Damned updates, but yeesh, he really should have waited until AFTER the Damned started shipping to do the big reveal

 NAVARRO wrote:
If I received any correspondence requesting sensible details etc from something happened more than a decade ago I would send it to spam and block it.

A five second search would turn up the WGA article and confirm it as legit.

 Gomezaddams wrote:

And if I believe anything Tony said, everything that went wrong was entirely the fault of others...

"Like an idiot I agreed to a deal that gave him control of the company with the handshake wink-wink promise that controlling interest would revert to me as we hit certain milestones. I was young, anxious to build it, encouraged by the toy guys’ enthusiasm, and focused on the future and not protecting myself."

Sounds like owning some responsibility right there.


I've worked with a bloke who got in early with manufacturing a unique product, trying to get production set up in China and having the exact same rug-pull resulting in his innovation being flat out taken over. So it's a real thing that sucks, shows you have to be *really* careful when setting up overseas. I'm sure there's probably entire businesses that exist and make money just by connecting anglo businesses with reputable producers in China for a cost.

I find his story pretty believable, but then I'm sitting in a place that might have some bias with Chinese companies...

But honestly, I'm fine with it - it seems he's finally been able to achieve a good, profitable business and can go back, right some of his wrongs and really clear his name of some of the shade that accumulated around it due to past events.

I mean, once that wrong -whatever the reason why- has been done, can anyone really want for more than that?*


*Well I for one want squamata legionaries and a Trojan chariot, but that's beside the point really, as I'm not in any of those other camps.

WGA is the only producer of 10mm plastic miniatures (and if GW's BoFA never existed all that time ago, WGA would be the only EVER producer).They got me there. So I do not care who's behind all.

"Like an idiot I agreed to a deal that gave him control of the company with the handshake wink-wink promise that controlling interest would revert to me as we hit certain milestones. I was young, anxious to build it, encouraged by the toy guys’ enthusiasm, and focused on the future and not protecting myself."

Sounds like owning some responsibility right there.

Except thats Tonys perspective.

At the time, Wai Kee put out his own statement. In a nutshell, the company had racked up significant debts to him, so in exchange for writing those off he would take a 51% stake in the company (including all the IP). In exchange, he would cover all the companies outstanding debts that were disclosed, and any that weren't would fall to Tony. Apparantly there were a lot more of these then had been admitted to, including one to an organisation called Triangle in Boston for around $5k. From what I can make out and remember from the time, they hired disabled employees to pack goods to develop employability skills.

So I think the question is - why would you sign over a controlling stake in your company in the vague notion you'd get it back - why would someone take on your debts, sort your business out, and then just... hand it back?

And thats without even touching any of the Defiance Games stuff because oh boy, is there layers to that onion. So many layers. I mean all the sign offs by the 'new team' were by Max so... is that Max McDougall? Because that'd be a great plot twist.



Setting all that aside - as I said, Wargames Factory haven't been idle. They entered into a partnership with Warlord to sell all the old kits, they produce Kingdom Death, Malifaux (although that may have changed), and all of GW's terrain. I think the accusations about quality being a manufacturing fault are laughable (especially given the quality of a lot of the home grown WGA kits isn't exactly top tier...). And if they do still hold all the IP, Defiance Games IP would have been lost similar to what happened with Secret Weapon... what and how is Tony planning to produce anything. And more importantly.. why bother?

What do you mean, why bother? Even non gamers go nuts for those not-machinen-krieger eggsuits.