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 Ashiraya wrote:

If AoS had been dying like WHFB did, then sure.

Are we still repeating this nonsense as fact? It grows with every cycle of retelling as well, first it was "not profitable enough for Kirby who thought everything that wasn't earning like Space Marines was worthless trash", then "undeperforming relative to 40K", and now we're at "it was totally dying and making no money at all GW were basically keeping it going as a charitable old folks home"

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

If AoS had been dying like WHFB did, then sure.

Are we still repeating this nonsense as fact? It grows with every cycle of retelling as well, first it was "not profitable enough for Kirby who thought everything that wasn't earning like Space Marines was worthless trash", then "undeperforming relative to 40K", and now we're at "it was totally dying and making no money at all GW were basically keeping it going as a charitable old folks home"

It wasn't doing well, all those versions say the same thing. I'll be honest even now old world seems, to me, to exist purely as a nod and thanks as lip service to people after a nostalgia hit.

The whole rumour actually makes perfect sense imo and might bridge the gap enough that old world fans and sigmar enjoyers can end up with a common product to enjoy.

The old world is doing well here I think for miniature sales, but not seeing much play.
I would actually wonder if GW is seeing specific sales in the old world that are bigger than expected for it, and trying to look at low sale factions in age of sigmar that are similar?

Like people eat up any dwarf mini that they get for old world, but some others are still in a weird place.

I'm highly sceptical, but if this is the direction GW wants to go, I hope they choose something better than "Archron kills everyone... Again".

Like have Slaneesh finally break free, but this proves too much for the Mortal Realms, which are absolutely riddled with Skaven Tunnels, and it starts falling apart.
Sigmar sends out the call to try and bring the old pantheon back together to fix things, but too many are dead or missing, and the best the remaining gods can do is save bits of each realm and forge it into one world, the strain of which kills them too (At least physically, you still need the spirit of Sigmar around somewhere to make more Stormcast).

Word on the street (mite be copium) is that this was all to flush out a leaker.

Personally I'd welcome a setting that wasn't so big and nebulous that nothing I do matters.

But the chief problems with AoS can't be fixed in the lore section of the book.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Word on the street (mite be copium) is that this was all to flush out a leaker.

Didn't we have an outrageous set of rumours in the past that was speculated to be a, uh... loretrap, I guess?

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Word on the street (mite be copium) is that this was all to flush out a leaker.

Didn't we have an outrageous set of rumours in the past that was speculated to be a, uh... loretrap, I guess?

It wouldn't surprise me. There's been three (supposed) individuals who have had near spot on rumours many months in advance of anything official. Maybe GW was getting tired of it and needed to use something dramatic to catch them. Still, risky thing putting out something like this which would cause whiplash in the community.

They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

This would please nobody, though. It wouldn't bring back TOW into ascendancy, and it would piss off AOS fans because like you said, they would be throwing the IP into the trash. That's why, as someone who is middling at best on AOS, I hope it doesn't happen.

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

Don't be absurd. People threw a massive fit when they introduced ogres as a fully playable race in fantasy, they would have lost their minds if something like SCE appeared. And plenty of people like it, it's why its the third best selling game right now and people are rightfully concerned if anything like this is true.

GW has done similar counter intelligence tricks before.

I remember some very accurate rumors about the IG codex (5th edition?) and orders. The rules were right but the names of each order was wrong.

So I would bet they showed them to a couple of people, each with sight differences, and waited to see which version got posted.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

This would please nobody, though. It wouldn't bring back TOW into ascendancy, and it would piss off AOS fans because like you said, they would be throwing the IP into the trash. That's why, as someone who is middling at best on AOS, I hope it doesn't happen.

How exactly does it throw the IP in the trash?

Sigmar is an off screen presence and becomes a killed/not killed factional argument. Then the worlds get stitched together.

Its just a new bit of the evolving story like the rest.

Vorian wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

This would please nobody, though. It wouldn't bring back TOW into ascendancy, and it would piss off AOS fans because like you said, they would be throwing the IP into the trash. That's why, as someone who is middling at best on AOS, I hope it doesn't happen.

How exactly does it throw the IP in the trash?

Sigmar is an off screen presence and becomes a killed/not killed factional argument. Then the worlds get stitched together.

Its just a new bit of the evolving story like the rest.

Because like it or not, AOS is about the Mortal Realms.

AoS was the forerunner of GW's change of emphasis from setting to story. Change to the setting was implied from the beginning and happened with every edition, albeit in the oft lamented shapeless way the Mortal Realms have existed in.

It would be a significant change to clump all the realms together, but I don't think it would necessarily alter the basic premise. The winds of magic could still channel into their respective areas and keep that aspect intact. The Mortal Realms have already reduced in size from near limitless to huge but with boundaries. This would only be one more, possibly final step in that direction. Instead of gates as choke points you'll have more conventional geographic features. The function remains much the same, if GW doesn't do anything especially wild on top of what that rumor suggests.

Sure it would rein some things in that are completely open and without definition now, but I don't see how all of that would fundamentally alter the spirit of AoS.

The point is never what they do but how they do it and how soon they throw it away if it doesn't work

Like the story they set up for 40k and doing a backwards exploring was changed again very soon and we got back from story to setting again

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

This would please nobody, though. It wouldn't bring back TOW into ascendancy, and it would piss off AOS fans because like you said, they would be throwing the IP into the trash. That's why, as someone who is middling at best on AOS, I hope it doesn't happen.

How exactly does it throw the IP in the trash?

Sigmar is an off screen presence and becomes a killed/not killed factional argument. Then the worlds get stitched together.

Its just a new bit of the evolving story like the rest.

Because like it or not, AOS is about the Mortal Realms.

If GW says the mortal realms stitch together into a planet then it's about that. But nothing functionally changes

Slaanesh coming back means we would probably get a new Archaon: now on a steed with FIVE heads, having Slaanesh in there as well the Horned Rat!

To be honest, i think i'd rather see Archaon gone. He's become far too much the authors pet. If Sigmar is "killed", let him and Archaon merk each other and have Abraxia or someone else promoted.

Skaven are faaaar more the author's pet than anyone else. Their ludicrous shenanigans in the End Times still leave a sour taste.

I tend to think this is not a "trap" rumour, because if I was doing a trap rumour I wouldn't do one that might deter people from buying models or make them really angry. I'd do something specific but low stakes so I catch the mole without making people annoyed.

Vorian wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Sasorijap wrote:
They should have never nuked the WFB world. They could have done most all the things they did but kept the world map the same. They threw the IP in the trash and now wonder why noone likes AOS.

This would please nobody, though. It wouldn't bring back TOW into ascendancy, and it would piss off AOS fans because like you said, they would be throwing the IP into the trash. That's why, as someone who is middling at best on AOS, I hope it doesn't happen.

How exactly does it throw the IP in the trash?

Sigmar is an off screen presence and becomes a killed/not killed factional argument. Then the worlds get stitched together.

Its just a new bit of the evolving story like the rest.

Because like it or not, AOS is about the Mortal Realms.

If GW says the mortal realms stitch together into a planet then it's about that. But nothing functionally changes

This seems sensible. Likewise the mortal realm discs in space bit is the element I've least enjoyed about it. They made in ways in the first editions with the realmgates etc. But that sort of quickly fell off to "thing that happens in location XYZ" which is honestly better on a single shared world for fantasy stuff.

Does anyone care about the AoS story setting? Are there 100 people alive who could give you the lore behind the Hammers of Sigmar and the Anvils of Heldenhammer? Without googling, can you think of an AoS quote that rivals the mutant/heretics/xenos litany or even little flavor texts like "Even in death, I still serve," or "Innocence proves nothing."

I really like the models, but GW would be right to scrap the setting entirely. Creating a "Battleworld" that is kinda-sorta the Old World map seems silly. If nothing else, it certainly makes the game more juvenile.

40K is so successful for two reasons:

1) The marine design is iconic in the way that Gundam mech's are. It's like they gave form to a Jungian archetype. But it's not just aesthetics, which is why the move to copy/paste them into AoS failed. 40K works because...

2) The setting feels real. The metaphysics are goofy, the real physics are ludicrous, but the world is steeped in real and recognizable history. You're replaying the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Voyages of Discovery, and American Manifest Destiny at a galactic scale. You see Puritan hats and WWI trench coats. Catholic iconography and army markings.

It's silly and pulpy, but the gravitas borrowed from all the symbols the world deploys provides stakes and lets players believe they are part of stories that matter. It gives them a permission structure to have a Rorke's Drift-inspired guard regiment that makes perfect sense.

AoS has none of this. How am I supposed to insert myself into a realm of life or fire or metal or death – all disembodied and accessible by portals? It's fine so far as it goes. You can make some fun terrain, but it leaves you with nothing at the end. No communion with myths that resonate in your culture.

At least the Old World was "Earth 300-1400AD-ish, but with monsters and magic." Were I GW, I'd lean that way. Kill the LOTR license. Have one product line that is fantasy-based and try to map it to some Earthly stakes.

Yeah, quite a few actually if you bother to look.

That's a lot of words to say, "just because i don't like thing, it should be gone".

Tell me you’ve not actually read any of the AoS background without telling me you’ve not actually read any of the AoS background.

Point of order: The Old World is way more 1500s than anything else.

AoS being a more heroic fantasy setting as compared to 40k/TOW grimdarkness was a good selling point and resetting it to exactly the same 5 minutes to midnight ChaoswinsLOL speaks to a terrible lack of creativity from marketing and writing.

Whatever you feel about the wargame though, Soulbound the RPG has their game nuked by this.

It feels like marketing wondering why their No 2 IP gets a fraction of the licensing interest TOW and just shifting it to a copy.

It'll also scare TOW players as its a step closer to just merging the two lines.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Yeah, quite a few actually if you bother to look.

That's a lot of words to say, "just because i don't like thing, it should be gone".

Can you point me to one of these "quite a few" examples you seem to have in mind? A single meme on par with Krieg shovels?

 flaherty wrote:
Does anyone care about the AoS story setting? Are there 100 people alive who could give you the lore behind the Hammers of Sigmar and the Anvils of Heldenhammer? Without googling, can you think of an AoS quote that rivals the mutant/heretics/xenos litany or even little flavor texts like "Even in death, I still serve," or "Innocence proves nothing."

I really like the models, but GW would be right to scrap the setting entirely. Creating a "Battleworld" that is kinda-sorta the Old World map seems silly. If nothing else, it certainly makes the game more juvenile.

40K is so successful for two reasons:

1) The marine design is iconic in the way that Gundam mech's are. It's like they gave form to a Jungian archetype. But it's not just aesthetics, which is why the move to copy/paste them into AoS failed. 40K works because...

2) The setting feels real. The metaphysics are goofy, the real physics are ludicrous, but the world is steeped in real and recognizable history. You're replaying the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Voyages of Discovery, and American Manifest Destiny at a galactic scale. You see Puritan hats and WWI trench coats. Catholic iconography and army markings.

It's silly and pulpy, but the gravitas borrowed from all the symbols the world deploys provides stakes and lets players believe they are part of stories that matter. It gives them a permission structure to have a Rorke's Drift-inspired guard regiment that makes perfect sense.

AoS has none of this. How am I supposed to insert myself into a realm of life or fire or metal or death – all disembodied and accessible by portals? It's fine so far as it goes. You can make some fun terrain, but it leaves you with nothing at the end. No communion with myths that resonate in your culture.

At least the Old World was "Earth 300-1400AD-ish, but with monsters and magic." Were I GW, I'd lean that way. Kill the LOTR license. Have one product line that is fantasy-based and try to map it to some Earthly stakes.

I agree with all of this.

AOS always seemed like a game driven by money men rather than the creative team at GW.

Regarding the rumours, if AoS is not performing as well as the money men expected at this point in time then doing some big lore rebranding thing could make sense , from their perspective

Edited for clarity

Why are you moving the goalposts? You said care about fluff and quotes or whatever. Go look at TGA, facebook groups and reddit and you'll see enough. Using "memes" as a metric for anything is idiotic.

As for quotes, if you want something snappy, you've got "only the faithful". Ruination chamber has "We are hope when hope is dying."

My personal favourite, from an Ossiarch to a city member when they appear to save them from a chaos onslaught 'All will be placed into order,' it said. 'We are here to save you.'

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's a lot of words to say, "just because i don't like thing, it should be gone".

You don't have to agree with flaherty's point, but lets not pretend no point was made to begin with.

AoS was nebulous in the past and largely remains nebulous today, despite clear attempts at anchoring at least some of the world in fixed geographical and factional relations, in part because it lacks the reference framework Warhammer and 40k have.

That's no to say you can't build a resonant setting from scratch, but that requires a touch more effort than whatever GW expended over the course of AoS lifespan.

I know from someone on the inside that GW was close to bankruptcy and when they made the decision to cut WHFB. Someone pretty much wrote the whole story of AOS in a piece of A4 and they went with that. If you think there were big thought behind the rebrand then you are naive.

Anyone that worked there during that time, go ahead and disprove me.