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@Cyel- first of, respect man. I recognize that you're doing a thing I frequently do too: when someone expresses disappointment, you try to provide ways that the person in question may, in time, become less disappointment. This is a positive instinct- it helps bring much needed positivity to places where the negative language proliferates. So first and foremost, thanks for trying.
I think you'll ultimately end up frustrated with me though, because there isn't a way to make this pill less bitter for me. I do appreciate you trying, but I feel obligated to warn you it's unlikely to work.
I'd say just use the default ones. From my attempts at playing Spec Ops it's not like these rules particularly ooze narrative and atmosphere anyway and I remember mostly sticking to generic options myself with my White Scars, because it didn't make that much of a difference (I remember actually avoiding some Intercession options due to them being too strong).
Again, non-Inquisition Marines, for me are the least interesting thing in the 40k universe because of their ubiquity, so I never looked at their KT rules, and it's possible their Spec-ops content was dull- in 9th ed, their Crusade content was pretty dull too, though from the Goonhammer reviews, they really did improve this in 10th.
But let me give you a few examples of Spec Ops awesomeness:
The Aeldari Aspect KT's The Path Diverges requisition:
This is a narrative engine all by itself- it is a mechanic that can represent an Aspect Warrior changing Aspects or becoming an Exarch. As such, it can be linked to specific battlefield conditions (ie. highest scoring operative becomes the new exarch, lowest scoring choses a new path), objectives, and in a system where you're playing KTs from a 40k Crusade roster, it interacts with bespoke Crusade mechanics in 40k and impacts your army as a whole. This also interacts with the statuary asset, as you can only have one Aspect statue at a time... A new Dire Avenger Exarch might take exception to that Banshee Statue.
You absolutely will not find a more narrative requisition (or even a remotely equal one) for this team amongst the generic offerings.
The Sisters Field Punishment and Saint Potentia requisitions:
The first allows a Novitiate to become a Penitent as a result of game conditions... And as a Narrative player, for me, this is the only way I would include a Penitent. This allows a player to exceed the one Penitent limit (the rules don't explicitly say this, but they also don't explicitly say otherwise) and because the use of the requisition requires an in-game trigger, it's unlikely to be an issue. What this requisition is missing is the Redemption Arc... But even so, it's crazy fluffy, and again, it interacts with Crusade rules in combined Narrative rosters.
Saint Potentia is another interaction with Crusade rules, and an absolute game changer. Imagine being identified as a candidate for Sainthood BEFORE you graduate from the rank of Novitiate! That's a Prodigy, a once in a generation phenomenon that translates directly into Crusade.
Finally, many of the Home Base assets can be modelled and located in space with map-based campaigns, or used as objective markers in either Crusade or KT.
Heck, just for you, I looked up the stuff for Marine Scouts, and it's awesome!
A scout can become a full Marine! A Sergeant can share battlefield expertise with his operatives- sacrificing his own growth to help the troops under his command grow instead- that's WAY more narrative than the generic crap. And the "Scout Vehicles" base asset is a nice combo with supply limit increases in Crusade being used to add speeders.
The key to narrative gaming is not merely what GW gives us, but the myriad of interesting ways in which what GW gives us can be used. If you've always chosen Spec-op upgrades based on the rules they provide without ever thinking about how they should be purchased when they are conceivable narrative results of in game action, or how they affect ongoing narrative conditions in-game... Well yeah, you can be forgiven for thinking they don't matter. But for people who DO these things... Like I'm not going to take a Penitent and til a game gives one of girls something to Repent... These rules were the best part of the game.
I think a Spec Ops equivalent should become a thing in this edition, and if separated from the basic rules maybe could become something more vibrant and captivating than pretty mechanical and dull Spec Ops of KT21.
The potential for this is strong, and it's the one thing that might redeem the edition for me. The flip side to that is that the the Spec-Ops equivalent for KT24 could also be worse; the KT18 campaign system was hot garbage, and not worth the paper it was printed on; two editions later, I still mourn the trees. A slap-dash White Dwarf article won't cut it. The difficulty is that the best parts of Spec-ops play were integrated directly into the team rules themselves. In order to be as good, any forthcoming supplement would have to revist each team to add bespoke content, otherwise the Narrative Play mode becomes as inadequate as a universal equipment list is, and crazy enough, that's something this edition has the gall to actually brag about. They've already said there will be bespoke lists that teams can choose from instead of the universal one... And of course they did, because there has to be: even for something as simple as equipment, universal rules are inadequate for narrative use.
If you're going to have bespoke equipment list anyways, why not just ad the few things from universal that ARE truly suitable?
PenitentJake wrote: What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
Maybe there's some similar tables in the secondary book included in the boxed set?
Also they were just suggested options, you can easily make your own.
Certainly the backgrounds and quirks were- those things were useful for Narrative, but they weren't actual rules, so they never go out of date.
But skill trees, assets and requisitions were actual rules, and as demonstrated above, they really do shape the narrative if you let them, and they aren't easily replaced. No core support for Spec-Ops means that skill trees and specialisms don't exist at all because there's no mechanism for XP. GW could be forgiven for excluding that from a game where people are playing 2k point games were it would be a lot of book keeping... But a ten model per side skirmish game without progression mechanics is just a total fail from my perspective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/09/22 19:06:03
PenitentJake wrote: No core support for Spec-Ops means that skill trees and specialisms don't exist at all because there's no mechanism for XP. GW could be forgiven for excluding that from a game where people are playing 2k point games were it would be a lot of book keeping... But a ten model per side skirmish game without progression mechanics is just a total fail from my perspective.
Or they're saving it all up for a big, expensive hardback expansion book that people need to spend money on. Free team rules is one thing, but GW's got to get their cash from somewhere!
PenitentJake wrote: @Cyel- first of, respect man. I recognize that you're doing a thing I frequently do too: when someone expresses disappointment, you try to provide ways that the person in question may, in time, become less disappointment. This is a positive instinct- it helps bring much needed positivity to places where the negative language proliferates. So first and foremost, thanks for trying.
I think you'll ultimately end up frustrated with me though, because there isn't a way to make this pill less bitter for me. I do appreciate you trying, but I feel obligated to warn you it's unlikely to work.
Gallowdark terrain rerelease appears to be without the accessory sprue which seems a shame. Maybe they'll stick all four of those in a box or something.
Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
So I love my requisitions and assets, though I completely understand why your campaign doesn't use them.
I do, however, love your missions. I particularly like the Ancient Guardian- it has some great abilities, but I can easily think of half a dozen models I might use to represent it. I bookmarked the page and I probably will try out the missions.
Curious: You mentioned in the preamble that you have had lackluster experiences with other Spec-Ops stuff. I've said in a recent post (whether here or B&C I can't be sure) that the actual Ops themselves were the dullest part of the system: Complete X tacop Y times, then play a final game and achieve Tacop Z, earn a reward. Your missions are certainly cooler.
But what I wondered was whether or not you had tried any of the campaign systems that came in the books. I really liked Ashes of Faith's campaign system... Though it is quite specifically designed for the teams in the box. But Salvation (the set with Scorpions and Scouts) has a map based campaign with some cool quirks too, and it works better for teams other than the ones in the box.
I haven't checked my other books to see if they also included campaign systems- they all have mission sequences, but the campaign structure may be absent or missing.
In my own games, I play both KT and Crusade from the same roster; the units that are suitable for use in KT have both Crusade cards and KT cards. There's only one XP pool, but when a KT unit hits a level break, they get BOTH a Crusade Battle Honour and a KT specialism upgrade, regardless of which game gave them the XP. Obviously, KT rules are only ever used in KT, and 40k rules are only used in Crusade.
What this does is put the long-term goals from Crusade into KT to infuse Spec-ops play with more meaning. This is why the Saint Potentia is such a big deal, because she actually exists in both games. As for KT requisitions and Assets, I try to reflect them with the Crusade Roster... So for example, I might put the points into the Sisters Battle Sanctum (Legends now) to represent the Home-Base assets I've acquired in KT.
Finally, my campaign is open ended... Which wouldn't work for a lot of players. People tend to like finite limits in Wargame campaigns... But I'm a pen and paper RPG vet, and taking 2-5 years to run a character from 1-20 is something I've done a dozen times or more, and that's how I prefer to play 40k too. The heroine of the Sisters force is beginning the campaign before she's formally admitted to the Novitiates.
My partner's out of town for a week, and I'm hoping to write some Batreps up while they're away. I'll send you some more info if I manage to follow through. There's going to be a three round arena battle in Commorragh that determines which member from each of the cults becomes the Hekatrix, which members get Wych weapons, which Cult's Hekatrix will be promoted to Succubus, and which cult will have the honour of working with Beast packs. I have the Arena surface built (but not the bleachers); Ideally, I'd like to introduce all the Dramatis Personae, but they aren't 100% necessary to the batrep.
Sorry to link off site, but if you're curious about the campaign, you'll find a fair bit of stuff here:
The "Rules Development" tab is supposed to be a place where I can post generic rules that people can use, and the Saint Katherine's Aegis Campaign Tab is where I apply all of those rules to use and create a specific campaign as an example of rules applied. I'm a dinosaur slow painter, and I don't play anywhere near as often as I'd like, so I don't update often... But I'm hoping to change that soon.
Anyway man, wicked missions, and I think I will take your campaign for a spin as part of my larger ongoing narrative.
So I love my requisitions and assets, though I completely understand why your campaign doesn't use them.
I do, however, love your missions. I particularly like the Ancient Guardian- it has some great abilities, but I can easily think of half a dozen models I might use to represent it. I bookmarked the page and I probably will try out the missions.
Curious: You mentioned in the preamble that you have had lackluster experiences with other Spec-Ops stuff. I've said in a recent post (whether here or B&C I can't be sure) that the actual Ops themselves were the dullest part of the system: Complete X tacop Y times, then play a final game and achieve Tacop Z, earn a reward. Your missions are certainly cooler.
But what I wondered was whether or not you had tried any of the campaign systems that came in the books. I really liked Ashes of Faith's campaign system... Though it is quite specifically designed for the teams in the box. But Salvation (the set with Scorpions and Scouts) has a map based campaign with some cool quirks too, and it works better for teams other than the ones in the box.
I haven't checked my other books to see if they also included campaign systems- they all have mission sequences, but the campaign structure may be absent or missing.
In my own games, I play both KT and Crusade from the same roster; the units that are suitable for use in KT have both Crusade cards and KT cards. There's only one XP pool, but when a KT unit hits a level break, they get BOTH a Crusade Battle Honour and a KT specialism upgrade, regardless of which game gave them the XP. Obviously, KT rules are only ever used in KT, and 40k rules are only used in Crusade.
What this does is put the long-term goals from Crusade into KT to infuse Spec-ops play with more meaning. This is why the Saint Potentia is such a big deal, because she actually exists in both games. As for KT requisitions and Assets, I try to reflect them with the Crusade Roster... So for example, I might put the points into the Sisters Battle Sanctum (Legends now) to represent the Home-Base assets I've acquired in KT.
Finally, my campaign is open ended... Which wouldn't work for a lot of players. People tend to like finite limits in Wargame campaigns... But I'm a pen and paper RPG vet, and taking 2-5 years to run a character from 1-20 is something I've done a dozen times or more, and that's how I prefer to play 40k too. The heroine of the Sisters force is beginning the campaign before she's formally admitted to the Novitiates.
My partner's out of town for a week, and I'm hoping to write some Batreps up while they're away. I'll send you some more info if I manage to follow through. There's going to be a three round arena battle in Commorragh that determines which member from each of the cults becomes the Hekatrix, which members get Wych weapons, which Cult's Hekatrix will be promoted to Succubus, and which cult will have the honour of working with Beast packs. I have the Arena surface built (but not the bleachers); Ideally, I'd like to introduce all the Dramatis Personae, but they aren't 100% necessary to the batrep.
Sorry to link off site, but if you're curious about the campaign, you'll find a fair bit of stuff here:
The "Rules Development" tab is supposed to be a place where I can post generic rules that people can use, and the Saint Katherine's Aegis Campaign Tab is where I apply all of those rules to use and create a specific campaign as an example of rules applied. I'm a dinosaur slow painter, and I don't play anywhere near as often as I'd like, so I don't update often... But I'm hoping to change that soon.
Anyway man, wicked missions, and I think I will take your campaign for a spin as part of my larger ongoing narrative.
The link to your campaign doesn't work for me, sadly (it keeps telling me it's checking if I am human and never redirects ) :( A pity as it is most likely an enjoyable read.
In theory I like the idea of an epic long, ongoing campaign, but in reality, as an owner of 5 different teams now, I like switching teams for variety pretty often. And I don't play KT often enough to be able to satisfy both the campaign play with the same team and the need to play different teams for less stagnation.
tauist wrote: Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
Very sensible when it comes to GW. If you buy into every new edition, then you'll probably experience burnout with purchases when the following edition is only three years away.
I didn't get into KT'21 but for the cost of a White Dwarf I had a Harlequins team ready to go just incase I changed my mind. In hindsight it was still worth the purchase as I might come across a player such as your self, as well as those who will prefer the newest edition. I really didn't like the WD rollout at the time, but its worked out well in the end because they included enough lore to make a mini-codex for the team, which I doubt will be provided in the upcoming pdfs on WarCom.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/09/24 09:52:44
tauist wrote: Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
Yeah, there's a real good set of teams in KT21 that provide enough variety to keep you going for a long time. I guess the temptation for me is that I could basically double that with KT24 and have 50 teams instead of 26 that all play well with KT24 rules. So it's what I want to consider the "full set" as it were.
(And yes, I'm aware that when KT27 comes out it might be similar, but it's not so tempting as by then you'll have 50 teams, half of which won't work with the new one, so you're just getting back to where you were. This at least feels like it's growing.)
Here at Warhammer Community, we’ve got more from the new edition of Kill Team, with a big reveal on Monday and new rules going up for download later in the week.
From the newest preorder preview article. Its for sure not going to be the next box as that would be on Warhammer day this Saturday so its either the teaser model for the reveal show which could be an Ogryn from the new box or it might be the new starter set.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/09/29 23:53:56
Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book? I fact checked myself and they only ever mentioned free rules for the teams, but I'm not sure this feels like a huge win at this point.
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book? I fact checked myself and they only ever mentioned free rules for the teams, but I'm not sure this feels like a huge win at this point.
The app allows you to download the free, 3-page Kill Team Lite rules. Enough to get you playing, with the free data sheets for the various teams. But obviously, the Lite rules are a stripped-down version, and don’t have any of the additional content from the full rule book.
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book?
why?
not like it has been the very same with all the "free" rules now, the entry version is free/digital and for the full game you need to buy the book
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book?
why?
not like it has been the very same with all the "free" rules now, the entry version is free/digital and for the full game you need to buy the book
The best way I can word it, is that they pushed the edition as an easy reference living rules set, that's the wording they chose in the reveal video. One of the key objectives is accessibility. One of the major new features, and one of my drivers, was the solo play so I have something I can warham when on my todd.
However that isn't made accessible, it's not in the easy reference app, it's not in the living ruleset. It's in a £37.50 book.
So rather than buying a kill team and possibly the accessories, I'm buying nothing.
no surprise here, we had similar wording with the last editions of the other games, and after release or some time after release it was "technically correct" but still the same that the essentiell rules were locked behind the books
ok, KT being a side game so it could have been different, but the same way "free rules" turned out in AoS to be the same "not so free" as always, it is the same here
and my guess is that we see the army builder being linked to a warhammer+ subscription in the long run
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
parakuribo wrote: I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?
Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.
Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.
I'm not sure that's relevant? If you're taking about the 4th ed version it was basically an attempt at small 40k, which is a different thing altogether.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
Right there with you this time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/10/02 15:00:26
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Nevelon wrote: Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
To be honest, I never bought any rules for the latest edition. Made no sense to me to carry this outdated paper around. And a few times I played against players who referred to oficially printed rules, I had to repeatedly correct them "No, it isn't how your team works now, drop the book and check Wahapedia".
To paraphrase Gabe Newell, Valve's CEO, piracy isn't a result of the price as much as of convenience...I guess it works here.
Still bought 5 teams and a bucketload of terrain so it's not like GW should feel robbed.
:
) :( A pity as it is most likely an enjoyable read.
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