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In-game, they can do it with relative ease, for balance purposes. In the fluff, I remember a quotation warning Marines not to underestimate the danger posed by a large number of lasguns, and a chronicle (I think from an Imperial Guard codex's now-defunct timeline section) about a Chaos Lord and his terminator retinue being slaughtered by a massive barrage of lasfire.

Are there truly some weak spots that lasfire can penetrate? Because it seems to me that even articulations would likely be protected by additional layers, in the same way that medieval knights wore chainmail under their plate armor.

I think the most likely way to perform a lasgun-only Marine kill, in-story, is by overwhelming the ceramite's heat dissipation. A single lasgun shot has a zero percent chance of penetrating the power armor of Brother Vaskor Hearteater, legionary of the Night Lords. So do 50 lasgun shots in a 10-second span... though at this point, the ceramite surface is starting to heat up, maybe enough to blacken the paintjob. The lasfire keeps coming, relentless, and Brother Vaskor begins to sweat inside his armor as the internal temperature reaches 45-50 Celsius. Eventually, it gets so hot that Vaskor falls unconscious from the heat, or part of the now red-hot ceramite surface melts and fries the armor's electric wires.

Obviously, by the time Brother Vaskor succumbs, he's likely racked up a butcher's bill in the three digits, because lasfire alone is far from ideal to kill a Marine.

.

As with all things, overwhelming/sustained firepower (or luck, divine or otherwise). PA is not invincible, despite what some might claim, nor are lasguns ineffectual, despite what some might claim.


"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium."

- Angels of darkness

Attrition.

When a lasbolt strikes, it expends itself in kinetic and thermal energy, vaporising small areas and leaving a crater, and leaving a largely cauterised wound in naked flesh.

So, against Power Armour and Terminator Armour, enough lasbolts will eventually degrade the armour enough to get to the juicy insides.

But, if it hits somewhere more exposed (armour seal joints, eye lens etc), then it’s possible to penetrate.

The eye lens for instance? If it vaporises that? That’s an awful lot of heat next to your eyeball, so you risk being blinded (temporarily or permanently), which can be enough to take you out the immediate battle, and renders you easier prey for getting the rest of the job of making you not alive anymore from a nasty and acute case of death.

The main downside of lasweapons is, if you can survive the initial wound and Shock (as in, medical shock) you’ve a decent chance of surviving the wound, because you’re unlikely to bleed out. Unless of course, as the Imperial Guard tend to ensure, there’s plenty more where that one came from, necessitating you surviving each and every last one (hence an Ork or a Marine can laugh off most single hits, but will still be slain or incapacitated by repeated hits, to differing degrees). They’ll still leave a largely cauterised crater, but those two being’s physiology can power them through some hits which might cripple a lesser being (but not things like “not having a brain anymore, because that’s just been vaporised”)

Armour joints, cables, eye lenses, vents. All places that can hurt an Astartes if the shooter gets very lucky.

Bringing down a Space Marine as a baseline human is like bringing down any large predator. Swarm it and keep it off balance so that a dedicated marksman can make the kill shot.

The exact same way that arrows took down knights in plate armour.

Shoot enough and one will find its way into a gap.

Also don't forget grenades and other munitions that a guardsman might be carrying. Whilst standard grenades in 40K has a belt item/upgrade option have generally not done much (or were just for initiative in close combat or such); in reality they'd be capable of causing damage. Even if the blast doesn't do it; all those bits of shrapnel flying around could breach a cable or weakpoint.


Plus add to that all the stuff that they'd have access too outside of what the models do. Tripwires, traps, explosives and other stuff. This is without considering that some guardsmen units will have variations in gear that gives them an edge, but which is often just not represented on the tabletop

 Overread wrote:
Also don't forget grenades and other munitions that a guardsman might be carrying. Whilst standard grenades in 40K has a belt item/upgrade option have generally not done much (or were just for initiative in close combat or such); in reality they'd be capable of causing damage. Even if the blast doesn't do it; all those bits of shrapnel flying around could breach a cable or weakpoint.


Plus add to that all the stuff that they'd have access too outside of what the models do. Tripwires, traps, explosives and other stuff. This is without considering that some guardsmen units will have variations in gear that gives them an edge, but which is often just not represented on the tabletop

Also don’t forget the grenades and munitions the marine might be carrying. I don’t know how well the frag/krack grenade hanging off the marine’s belt is going to react to las fire, but probably not well.

-Guardsman- wrote:


I think the most likely way to perform a lasgun-only Marine kill, in-story, is by overwhelming the ceramite's heat dissipation. A single lasgun shot has a zero percent chance of penetrating the power armor of Brother Vaskor Hearteater, legionary of the Night Lords. So do 50 lasgun shots in a 10-second span... though at this point, the ceramite surface is starting to heat up, maybe enough to blacken the paintjob. The lasfire keeps coming, relentless, and Brother Vaskor begins to sweat inside his armor as the internal temperature reaches 45-50 Celsius. Eventually, it gets so hot that Vaskor falls unconscious from the heat, or part of the now red-hot ceramite surface melts and fries the armor's electric wires.

Obviously, by the time Brother Vaskor succumbs, he's likely racked up a butcher's bill in the three digits, because lasfire alone is far from ideal to kill a Marine.

.

This is basically correct, with the added chance of the lasguns hitting the less protected joints, eye lenses, etc...

This is of course why marines, at least in "normal" circumstances, won't be dying to most enemies and can live for centuries before getting killed. Pretty much you have to catch the marine out in the open with no cover and have a LOT of lasguns pointed at him to do it, which won't happen often.

A marine who is playing things safely, using cover, not overly exposing himself, etc... will be practically unkillable by lasguns in a practical sense. Its when things go sideways or the marine gets overconfidant that he might be caught lacking.

While I too think the remaining weakspots in power armor are.... the weakspots, I find the image drawn by -Guardsman- in their initial post definitly pretty scenic for a story. Would be something else then "ups, one got into his eye and he DIES"

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

But, swap out for a Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter, and you're looking at being two to three times as effective by those two weapons alone.

Aye, I think the vast majority of marine deaths to lasguns probably would be some sort of death via heat transfer. The weakspots exist, but other than just being able to cause a bad, but still non-life threatening, injury is about the best case you could get.

A shot through a leg/arm joint, oh the marine is going to move a little worse. Neck joint, well he's got a nasty burn in his throat. Eye Lense, he's missing an eye. Still going to find you and kill you with any of those. Its still a marine under that armor and they are fiendishly durable, especially towards a weapon which has to kill you via 2nd and 3rd degree burns.

Lasguns killing space marines is obviously just propaganda. No lasgun has ever really killed a Space Marine. If that occurs in any books it is a mistake or a lie.

I mean it's even more silly to think bullets could kill a space marine.

 JNAProductions wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

Ty for posting. I was thinking the same.

It’s rather more severe an injury than just a burn.

An unprotected arm can be severed by a single lasbolt, which is suggesting significant energy transfer.

Where they kind of fall down is a lack of armour penetration, especially on something like Power Armour which, as detailed above, has design elements to better proof it against energy weapons, by dissipating energy blasts across a larger area. So, numbers out my bum for demonstration? Instead of a small focused impact causing a 1cm deep crater? It’s spread out further, making it a wider blast, but perhaps only 3mm at its maximum depth.

In the Nightbringer novel, I recall impacts against Power Armour causing rivulets of molten material. So clearly, the blast is nothing to be sniffed at, even when you’re well protected.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Aye, I think the vast majority of marine deaths to lasguns probably would be some sort of death via heat transfer. The weakspots exist, but other than just being able to cause a bad, but still non-life threatening, injury is about the best case you could get.

A shot through a leg/arm joint, oh the marine is going to move a little worse. Neck joint, well he's got a nasty burn in his throat. Eye Lense, he's missing an eye. Still going to find you and kill you with any of those. Its still a marine under that armor and they are fiendishly durable, especially towards a weapon which has to kill you via 2nd and 3rd degree burns.

I wouldn't get hung up on just "burns". The 2nd ed Wargear book says a Lasgun "fires an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shells." A throat burn is one thing, but a shredded or exploded throat is a different story.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Aye, I think the vast majority of marine deaths to lasguns probably would be some sort of death via heat transfer. The weakspots exist, but other than just being able to cause a bad, but still non-life threatening, injury is about the best case you could get.

A shot through a leg/arm joint, oh the marine is going to move a little worse. Neck joint, well he's got a nasty burn in his throat. Eye Lense, he's missing an eye. Still going to find you and kill you with any of those. Its still a marine under that armor and they are fiendishly durable, especially towards a weapon which has to kill you via 2nd and 3rd degree burns.

I wouldn't get hung up on just "burns". The 2nd ed Wargear book says a Lasgun "fires an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shells." A throat burn is one thing, but a shredded or exploded throat is a different story.

I think the idea is that you get flash-vapourisation of fluid in the struck tissue which leads to thermal expansion and a steam explosion.

Also, whilst las wounds will be less likely to bleed (not impossible, cautery is not all that reliable and blowing an arm off will probably bleed more often than not), big burns can also kill later. Full-thickness burns (3rd or 4th degree) are really nasty as you have a high risk of infection, lose fluid becoming dehydrated, and lose heat becoming hypothermic. Burns covering 25-30%+ of a human body surface area are highly likely to be fatal without significant medical intervention- typically intensive care.

Las wounds may actually be more dangerous to Marines than bullets. They can clot incredibly quickly to staunch traumatic bullet wounds, but clotting won't prevent a burn from losing fluid and heat.

Clearly neither Las fire or bullets are dangerous to marines. Even out of armour most will just bounce off them and even if it doesn't the superficial wounds caused would quickly be healed by the marine's enhanced physiology.

Maybe a bullet in an eye would make a marine less dangerous on that side, but he could just cover his eyes with his hands and use his enhanced senses to find the enemy.

Chapter 18 of The Traitor's Hand has quite a nice depiction of a squad of world eaters pushing into a dug-in Slaaneshi militia. I think it gives a good balance of the high resilience of Marine troops versus pure attrition that happens in serious firefights.

As well as the lasgun impact issue, Power armour has an ablative layer as well, so by its very design its protection will degrade as the wearer takes hits.

 Da Boss wrote:
Clearly neither Las fire or bullets are dangerous to marines. Even out of armour most will just bounce off them and even if it doesn't the superficial wounds caused would quickly be healed by the marine's enhanced physiology.

Maybe a bullet in an eye would make a marine less dangerous on that side, but he could just cover his eyes with his hands and use his enhanced senses to find the enemy.

That depends on how much the author is jacking off over the idea of invincible marines. There are also examples of marines getting killed by feral world tribals with wooden spears.

So, marines can be killed by a single sharp stick.

 JNAProductions wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

Fair. Mind, when I say relative, I mean relative to what it would take in-story.

It can also be assumed that the in-game firing rate of small arms is heavily abstracted in order to limit the amount of dice-rolling. The above 36 rolls to kill one Marine probably translate into 100-200 shots in "real life".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s rather more severe an injury than just a burn.

An unprotected arm can be severed by a single lasbolt, which is suggesting significant energy transfer.

Where they kind of fall down is a lack of armour penetration, especially on something like Power Armour which, as detailed above, has design elements to better proof it against energy weapons, by dissipating energy blasts across a larger area. So, numbers out my bum for demonstration? Instead of a small focused impact causing a 1cm deep crater? It’s spread out further, making it a wider blast, but perhaps only 3mm at its maximum depth.

In the Nightbringer novel, I recall impacts against Power Armour causing rivulets of molten material. So clearly, the blast is nothing to be sniffed at, even when you’re well protected.

Lasguns have power settings, too. One novel I read (I think it was the first Gaunt book) has a character notice that an allied guardsman contingent are always using their lasguns at max power, because their philosophy of war is to make every shot count. I assume a high setting depletes the charge pack quicker, but you don't really care about that when fighting Marines, because you have fewer targets to kill, and a lot less time to kill them before they kill you.

.

Some do, but not all. The fanciest will have shot selectors (single, burst, full auto), such as those Cain’s Valhallan chums are armed with. Some have power settings. A very rare few might have both. But as presented in Inquisitor, it’s one or the other.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

Fair. Mind, when I say relative, I mean relative to what it would take in-story.

It can also be assumed that the in-game firing rate of small arms is heavily abstracted in order to limit the amount of dice-rolling. The above 36 rolls to kill one Marine probably translate into 100-200 shots in "real life".

.

This has always been my interpretation, that a shot in game equates to one "combat burst" in lore. How many actual shots would constitute that "combat burst" would vary by weapon. For a missile launcher or lascannon, probably actually a single shot per dice roll. For a boltgun, apparently a burst of 4 bolts is standard. For a lasgun or autogun I'd expect a similar burst of 3-10 shots or so per dice roll.

Gaunt's Ghosts storyline also has some examples of massed fire from "hot-shot" lasguns (sniping for weak points too) taking down a chaos marine in PA.

It's a hard-fought close fight but they do win through. (It was a while back that I read them, a grenade or two may have been in the mix as well.)

 Haighus wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

Fair. Mind, when I say relative, I mean relative to what it would take in-story.

It can also be assumed that the in-game firing rate of small arms is heavily abstracted in order to limit the amount of dice-rolling. The above 36 rolls to kill one Marine probably translate into 100-200 shots in "real life".

.

This has always been my interpretation, that a shot in game equates to one "combat burst" in lore. How many actual shots would constitute that "combat burst" would vary by weapon. For a missile launcher or lascannon, probably actually a single shot per dice roll. For a boltgun, apparently a burst of 4 bolts is standard. For a lasgun or autogun I'd expect a similar burst of 3-10 shots or so per dice roll.

Ooh then we get into the absurdity of marine ammunition. 4 round bursts in a 28 mag is a total of 7 bursts before needing to change...

Even if a marine were 100% accurate and only fired one round per enemy, they can only kill 28 enemies per magazine. They may carry 4 additional magazines. so at best a marine will kill 140 enemies when in god mode.

Using burst fire, they are killing a lot less...



I also think that people get a really bad feel for marines from books where protagonism is conflated with marineism and so a normal marine is expected to survive things that only a protagonist (of any persuasion) would survive. Plot armour is far more protective than any amount of power armour, but because virtually all GW books have marine protagonists, people conflate that plot armour with how protective their armour really is....

A naked marine with a laspistol at pointblank to the cranium will die. It's a deadly weapon. Their skulls aren't indestructible (yes I know the osmodula reinforces them). People really need to disentangle the plot armour from the practicality of the setting. And also the rules as well, they are so bad at representing reality its not worth trying to use them as a model.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
In-game, they can do it with relative ease...

I mean...

2 failed saves
6 wounds
18 hits
36 shots

That's two ten-man squads in Rapid Fire range, if they're only toting Lasguns, to kill ONE Marine.

Fair. Mind, when I say relative, I mean relative to what it would take in-story.

It can also be assumed that the in-game firing rate of small arms is heavily abstracted in order to limit the amount of dice-rolling. The above 36 rolls to kill one Marine probably translate into 100-200 shots in "real life".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s rather more severe an injury than just a burn.

An unprotected arm can be severed by a single lasbolt, which is suggesting significant energy transfer.

Where they kind of fall down is a lack of armour penetration, especially on something like Power Armour which, as detailed above, has design elements to better proof it against energy weapons, by dissipating energy blasts across a larger area. So, numbers out my bum for demonstration? Instead of a small focused impact causing a 1cm deep crater? It’s spread out further, making it a wider blast, but perhaps only 3mm at its maximum depth.

In the Nightbringer novel, I recall impacts against Power Armour causing rivulets of molten material. So clearly, the blast is nothing to be sniffed at, even when you’re well protected.

Lasguns have power settings, too. One novel I read (I think it was the first Gaunt book) has a character notice that an allied guardsman contingent are always using their lasguns at max power, because their philosophy of war is to make every shot count. I assume a high setting depletes the charge pack quicker, but you don't really care about that when fighting Marines, because you have fewer targets to kill, and a lot less time to kill them before they kill you.

.

The Las Rifle that Solar Auxilia use in 30k represent that rather well. With their short range high power profile strong enough to wound a marine on a 2 rather than a 5.

But, it does come down to the writer I suppose. I do believe there is a story of a guardsmen using the lasgun power pack as an impromptu krak grenade to damage (not not kill) a dreadnaught.

Mkoll. Good old Mkoll. Talking about plot armour

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s rather more severe an injury than just a burn.

An unprotected arm can be severed by a single lasbolt, which is suggesting significant energy transfer.

Where they kind of fall down is a lack of armour penetration, especially on something like Power Armour which, as detailed above, has design elements to better proof it against energy weapons, by dissipating energy blasts across a larger area. So, numbers out my bum for demonstration? Instead of a small focused impact causing a 1cm deep crater? It’s spread out further, making it a wider blast, but perhaps only 3mm at its maximum depth.

In the Nightbringer novel, I recall impacts against Power Armour causing rivulets of molten material. So clearly, the blast is nothing to be sniffed at, even when you’re well protected.

Yes, but we can't exactly call the joints of marine armor unprotected. They're just weak enough for the lasgun to potentially get through, but its not going to be full power. There is still some protection there.

So yes its theoretically possible, but injuries in the joints will be much less severe than if the marine was wearing nothing, and he's still a marine. So it will take multiple repeated hits in the weak spots to actually bring him down.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s rather more severe an injury than just a burn.

An unprotected arm can be severed by a single lasbolt, which is suggesting significant energy transfer.

Where they kind of fall down is a lack of armour penetration, especially on something like Power Armour which, as detailed above, has design elements to better proof it against energy weapons, by dissipating energy blasts across a larger area. So, numbers out my bum for demonstration? Instead of a small focused impact causing a 1cm deep crater? It’s spread out further, making it a wider blast, but perhaps only 3mm at its maximum depth.

In the Nightbringer novel, I recall impacts against Power Armour causing rivulets of molten material. So clearly, the blast is nothing to be sniffed at, even when you’re well protected.

Yes, but we can't exactly call the joints of marine armor unprotected. They're just weak enough for the lasgun to potentially get through, but its not going to be full power. There is still some protection there.

So yes its theoretically possible, but injuries in the joints will be much less severe than if the marine was wearing nothing, and he's still a marine. So it will take multiple repeated hits in the weak spots to actually bring him down.

A Marine who has no knee isn't running. They're not incapacitated, they're still a danger, but they're not moving anywhere fast. Which makes them vulnerable to anything heavier and too ponderous to hit them normally.

And Marines might be tough, but Guardsman can handle Orks, which are even tougher. Not as well-armored, sure, but there's also more of them.

Yes, but he isn't going to lose his whole knee from one lasbolt to the knee joint of his armor. It will still be reduced by the armor. The joint has less protection than the armor plates, not none at all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but he isn't going to lose his whole knee from one lasbolt to the knee joint of his armor. It will still be reduced by the armor. The joint has less protection than the armor plates, not none at all.

Exactly. It will be debilitating, but generally multiple hits will be needed to degrade a joint, just a lot less than going through the main plates.

Someone used medieval plate armour as an example above, and it is very apt. A full plate harness (incl. mail over joints) isn't immune to arrows, but it is highly resistant. Any arrows that do hit mail are unlikely to fly straight through, but they may have a cm or two stuck into flesh. Even if they don't penetrate somewhere it is like being punched, hard. That is painful, and will slow the wearer down and make them less effective in the coming melee... but it is unlikely to completely disable or outright kill them.

Sometimes freak events will happen though, and an arrow will hit a poorly-made weakspot where the metal quality was poor but it looked fine on the outside, or a spliter will fly somewhere unexpected like through an eye slit or up into the throat, and the wearer dies. These events are rare, but they happen on a battlefield. I'd expect similar freak events to occasionally affect Marines too, albeit very rarely given their exceptional equipment. Plus, the Marine has a high chance of surviving such events given their immense durability.