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New article in The Conversation putting the spotlight on Warhammer 40k as an area for serious academic study:

https://theconversation.com/five-reasons-warhammer-40-000-should-be-considered-a-great-work-of-science-fiction-241040

Reads like a nothing sandwich, to be honest. But maybe from a perspective of someone who’s not really aware of warhammer it’s a more fascinating read.
While I love warhammer, the most important (albeit simplistic) academical study it can provide at the moment, while it’s slowly becoming more and more mainstream, is how a universe/product/art/hobby loses its original character and why.

Warhammer 40k universe is huge. And I mean, seriously huge. The Horus Heresy series – the key saga that sets the context for the “present day” universe – spans some 54 books, with a further ten books mapping out the series’ conclusion. This is arguably the biggest single collective literary undertaking in all of science fiction. The series started in 2006 with the novel Horus Rising, and has now reached its conclusion, with just the final few books awaiting their paperback release.

in all of SciFi?
I guess the author don't know a lot of SciFi as 40k isn't even in the top 3 here

 kodos wrote:

Warhammer 40k universe is huge. And I mean, seriously huge. The Horus Heresy series – the key saga that sets the context for the “present day” universe – spans some 54 books, with a further ten books mapping out the series’ conclusion. This is arguably the biggest single collective literary undertaking in all of science fiction. The series started in 2006 with the novel Horus Rising, and has now reached its conclusion, with just the final few books awaiting their paperback release.

in all of SciFi?
I guess the author don't know a lot of SciFi as 40k isn't even in the top 3 here

Okay I'll bite, which ones? Or are we just counting all Star Trek / Star Wars / Dr Who tie-in novels as a series?

Calling it sci-fi at all immediately dismisses the discussion.

deano2099 wrote:

Okay I'll bite, which ones? Or are we just counting all Star Trek / Star Wars / Dr Who tie-in novels as a series?

the biggest ongoing series in SciFi is by far Perry Rhodan, even if you break it down into the cycles and chapters
ignore Star Wars, Star Trek and DrWho for no real reason (like ST has ~800 books with a lot of them going for addition content to the TV series/movies extending the story arc there but also ongoing story series, same with Star Wars but if you remove the novels not being part of the ongoing story but just happening at the same time with only referencing others the HH series also becomes shorter as there are "fillers" too)

there is Battletech, Gundam (Universal Century), The Frontier Saga, but also stuff like Animorphs (youth books) or Star Force that would be larger

Guys….OP is the chap that wrote the article.

deano2099 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Warhammer 40k universe is huge. And I mean, seriously huge. The Horus Heresy series – the key saga that sets the context for the “present day” universe – spans some 54 books, with a further ten books mapping out the series’ conclusion. This is arguably the biggest single collective literary undertaking in all of science fiction. The series started in 2006 with the novel Horus Rising, and has now reached its conclusion, with just the final few books awaiting their paperback release.

in all of SciFi?
I guess the author don't know a lot of SciFi as 40k isn't even in the top 3 here

Okay I'll bite, which ones? Or are we just counting all Star Trek / Star Wars / Dr Who tie-in novels as a series?

How about the Cthulhu mythos?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Warhammer 40k universe is huge. And I mean, seriously huge. The Horus Heresy series – the key saga that sets the context for the “present day” universe – spans some 54 books, with a further ten books mapping out the series’ conclusion. This is arguably the biggest single collective literary undertaking in all of science fiction. The series started in 2006 with the novel Horus Rising, and has now reached its conclusion, with just the final few books awaiting their paperback release.

in all of SciFi?
I guess the author don't know a lot of SciFi as 40k isn't even in the top 3 here

Okay I'll bite, which ones? Or are we just counting all Star Trek / Star Wars / Dr Who tie-in novels as a series?

How about the Cthulhu mythos?

That's considered Horror more than Sci-Fi.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Calling it sci-fi at all immediately dismisses the discussion.

This. It isn't science-fiction. Where's the science?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Warhammer 40k universe is huge. And I mean, seriously huge. The Horus Heresy series – the key saga that sets the context for the “present day” universe – spans some 54 books, with a further ten books mapping out the series’ conclusion. This is arguably the biggest single collective literary undertaking in all of science fiction. The series started in 2006 with the novel Horus Rising, and has now reached its conclusion, with just the final few books awaiting their paperback release.

in all of SciFi?
I guess the author don't know a lot of SciFi as 40k isn't even in the top 3 here

Okay I'll bite, which ones? Or are we just counting all Star Trek / Star Wars / Dr Who tie-in novels as a series?

How about the Cthulhu mythos?

That's considered Horror more than Sci-Fi.

They are both.

Cyel wrote:


This. It isn't science-fiction. Where's the science?

The space travel, the advanced science and technology, extraterrestrial life, time travel in some cases.

The only thing 40k doesn't do is parallel universes because it's already got enough going on as it is.

Its a sci-fi setting, pretending otherwise is pretentious.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


They are both.

I know it's technically both, but for purposes of structuring in places like book stores and libraries, mythos stuff is in the horror section.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


They are both.

I know it's technically both, but for purposes of structuring in places like book stores and libraries, mythos stuff is in the horror section.

Well if you go by how book stores structure their sections, then Fantasy and Sci-Fi are interchangeable.

I don't think that is a useful metric, personally, especially when the discussion is meant to be predicated on an academic examination.

40k is more properly science-fantasy then science fiction, but if you are going to find it a bucket or space on a labeled bookshelf, sci-fi fits it well enough.

For size and story, the HH nominally is telling the same story, just different threads and filler wandering around. And it is pretty massive on that account. If you consider shared universe sci-fi, where there are multiple stories being told in the same world as the same, then the HH series is not going to be in the big leagues. There are other franchises with more pages written.

So it’s true, from a certain point of view…

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


They are both.

I know it's technically both, but for purposes of structuring in places like book stores and libraries, mythos stuff is in the horror section.

Well if you go by how book stores structure their sections, then Fantasy and Sci-Fi are interchangeable.

I don't think that is a useful metric, personally, especially when the discussion is meant to be predicated on an academic examination.

I mean, academically, it would go even more horror as then we get into the discussion that it's the foundation of Eldritch Horror as a sub-genre as well as it being inspired by well known horror such as that by Poe and Lord Byron.

Science fantasy is still sci fi.

Moved elsewhere as it does not fall under news or rumours.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Rhetorical question: is Doc Smith's body of work science fiction, yes or no?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Are you implying that the alien race inspired by the Zerg from Starcraft and Xenomorphs from Alien aren't sci-fi?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Star Trek has most of those things. If you’re going to be so strict as to discount Star Trek, you’ll have to discount 90% of the classics, like Foundation with its mind powers. Heck, any book with FTL is science fantasy if you want to be a stickler.

If you go by the old lore where the warp can be explained as a parallel universe that was made into one big Krell Maximizer turned to 11, and our universe made full of beings engineered to tap it, then 40k gets harder Sci Fi than Star Trek since it only asks for one (albeit huge) point for suspension of disbelief.

Oh dear.

OK. I'll bite on serious academic study of marketing - and note that the OP is a marketing lecturer who also set up the Warhammer Conference referenced in the article.

So the premise is... "it's a great work of science fiction because..."

1) It's big. Grand scope. Nope. I can think of dozens of universe spanning scifi novels and series. The background itself doesn't make it great scifi.

2) It's big. There are lots of books. Again, quantity doesn't equal quality. Most of the novels I've read (granted I've only read 30 - 50) are dreadful quality. There MIGHT be brilliant novels out there, but I've not found them.

3) Depth of storytelling. OP seems to be confusing scale and depth.

4) Grimdark aesthetic. Ok - GW do do grimdark well - but it's not a new idea. Judge Dredd? The Chrysalids? (John Wyndham, 1955, "suffer not the mutant to live!") and I'm sure many other examples.

5) Research potential. OK I'll agree marketing/business research - maybe some sociology / psychology too. However, as the OP organised the conference that he references as the reason for study, doesn't that become a bit of a circular argument?

There IS great stuff in GWworld, but none of the above justify "great science fiction. Sorry/not sorry

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Star Trek has most of those things. If you’re going to be so strict as to discount Star Trek, you’ll have to discount 90% of the classics, like Foundation with its mind powers. Heck, any book with FTL is science fantasy if you want to be a stickler.

Yep even a lot of the tech in Star Trek is closer to magic than anything else.
There's always this line where some people feel a need for sci-fi to always be defined as what most would consider "hard" sci fi. That is real space physics*; real tech concepts; real this and real that.
That's certainly one kind of sci-fi, but its not all sci-fi.

There are also a good many sci-fi-fantasy stories that walk the line between the two and it gets a bit fuzzy and some can be classed as both. Eg Dragonriders of Pern is technically a full sci-fi story; even if many of the contents of early books is basically a fantasy setting and type powers/display.


*if we enforce that a VAST body of sci-fi just vanishes instantly

Whether or not the books are a great series is purely subjective. There are people who don't like them and people like me who enjoy them.
Are they all good? No of course not. No such series of books by many different authors will be of the same quality.
There are books written by authors in all genres that are better or worse than others they have written. Personally I've not read any yet that I've not taken something from. Whether it's scenarios for gaming, ideas for painting or just pure enjoyment of reading.
What I can say is I could not do any better than anything I've read, can others honestly say different? If yes then why have they not had anything published.
I've had so much from this hobby. Starting out by collecting and painting a few, then finding shipmates who also played Warhammer while in the Royal Navy. Try playing Warhammer on a table in the mess on a frigate while sailing through a storm. That was entertaining.
To the point where my children including my daughter game, which we can all do together going right down to my grandson joining us. Admittedly he's only 8 months but his mum is already painting a Seraphon army for him and I've started on a Marine army for him.
His mum is hoping he'll be able to join in rolling dice etc in a couple of years.
All this has come from each of us taking ideas from different books and telling our own stories.

I mean, if we go by “good artists borrow, great artists steal” then 40k is pretty great.

I find it one of the most engaging sandbox universes out there. The codices, novels, games, video games, role playing games and in-universe literature means there’s something 40k to strike a chord with every type of fan.

It's fun. Not sold on it as high-quality, but it is fun.
And that's enough for me. There's definitely stuff worth studying from it too.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Star Trek has most of those things. If you’re going to be so strict as to discount Star Trek, you’ll have to discount 90% of the classics, like Foundation with its mind powers. Heck, any book with FTL is science fantasy if you want to be a stickler.

If you go by the old lore where the warp can be explained as a parallel universe that was made into one big Krell Maximizer turned to 11, and our universe made full of beings engineered to tap it, then 40k gets harder Sci Fi than Star Trek since it only asks for one (albeit huge) point for suspension of disbelief.

Only one point? Are you sure you counted correctly?

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's fun. Not sold on it as high-quality, but it is fun.
And that's enough for me. There's definitely stuff worth studying from it too.

Depends a lot what you want from it, a lot of 40K I feel is written with that 12-14 boy as the target audience. Which is fine, some is well written, some not so much. But it does mean often the writers are specifically avoiding a bunch of interesting things.
Mostly I skip 40K novels unless something specific makes me interested, I just want something with more depth when I read.

Fun when it’s fun, but sometimes I am left rolling my eyes.

Age of sigmar gets off worse here often, some of the boooks I got to end and felt like I wish I did anything else but started reading and I can’t not finish books.

ccs wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Science fantasy is still sci fi.

It's fantasy with a veneer. It has elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, gods, sword and board monks, fantasy Egyptians and dinosaur bugs. The only thing even coming close to sci-fi in the setting is the Tau.

Star Trek has most of those things. If you’re going to be so strict as to discount Star Trek, you’ll have to discount 90% of the classics, like Foundation with its mind powers. Heck, any book with FTL is science fantasy if you want to be a stickler.

If you go by the old lore where the warp can be explained as a parallel universe that was made into one big Krell Maximizer turned to 11, and our universe made full of beings engineered to tap it, then 40k gets harder Sci Fi than Star Trek since it only asks for one (albeit huge) point for suspension of disbelief.

Only one point? Are you sure you counted correctly?

For the most part, 3.5 explained or implied everything in the setting as a long term result of the ability to tap the warp. The Old Ones. Chaos. Orks. Tyranids either directly from or a parallel trajectory to the old ones’ use of the warp to alter themselves. Psykers. FTL. Eldar. The Emperor. Daemons. Gods. All the result of the ability to tap the warp.

Actually, you’re right. The setting also required the C’Tan and their shenanigans, so two big asks.