Media You 180'd On [Spoilers Probably]

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**ccs**

trexmeyer wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kinda? I’ve long struggled with Anime as a genre. Or rather an art and production style, I guess.

Started with Akira, which blew my socks off and remains great. But, this being the early 90’s and the very tip of Manga Mania, my next exposure was the kind with random, unfeasibly prehensile demon weiners, which put me off.

Anime is not a genre, but there are common elements across the various genres in anime.
It's mostly Japanese (the big show right now is Solo Leveling which started as Korean web novel, but the production for the anime is Japanese) and reflects different cultural values consistently across the board. There's some positive ones you'll see more frequently in slice of life stories, such as an emphasis on friendship, family, and doing your best at school, work, etc. I think we're all familiar with most objectionable negatives ones such as inappropriate depictions of underage girls and the 'looks like a 10-year old but is actually a 4,000 year old dragon' meme.
You also have things like chibi depiction of characters popping up across genres.

The biggest problem with anime is that it's generally aimed at teenagers so the most popular works are borderline mindless action like Dragonball or Solo Leveling OR they're sketchy romcoms like Sono Bisque Doll. I can't think of a single romcom that focuses on adult characters, but I'm not an expert.
The second biggest issue is that the animation quality varies wildly and tends to be poor outside of 'blockbuster' series. Another issue is that a decent amount of anime exist to sell manga so they may or may not ever have a followup season. On top of that, a fair amount of manga now are adaptations of light novels (think YA fiction) that may or may not ever be finished.

IMO, manga is generally better and has more variety. There are some notable exceptions such as Frieren greatly improving on fight scenes and pretty much every music manga benefits from having actual music.

Despite all of the above, if you're looking for great storytelling, it's extremely rare in both anime and manga.

Sounds like a genre....

**JoshInJapan**

Being a child of the 80's (born in 1970), I grew up on Schwarzenegger, Stallone, and Van Damme movies. About year ago, I rented the first Expendables, and realized I was watching a bunch of dudes with guns murdering a bunch of other dudes with guns. That subgenre of action movies no longer does it for me.

**Lathe Biosas**

JoshInJapan wrote:
Being a child of the 80's (born in 1970), I grew up on Schwarzenegger, Stallone, and Van Damme movies. About year ago, I rented the first Expendables, and realized I was watching a bunch of dudes with guns murdering a bunch of other dudes with guns. That subgenre of action movies no longer does it for me.

I had the epiphany one day that Horror films and action movies are essentially the same thing.

One dude massacres the heck out of a group of people and no matter how much they try, they can't kill him.

If you are rooting for the killer its an action flick. If you are rooting for the soon to die, it's a horror movie.

**BobtheInquisitor**

JoshInJapan wrote:
Being a child of the 80's (born in 1970), I grew up on Schwarzenegger, Stallone, and Van Damme movies. About year ago, I rented the first Expendables, and realized I was watching a bunch of dudes with guns murdering a bunch of other dudes with guns. That subgenre of action movies no longer does it for me.

My advice: don’t rewatch the Matrix lobby scene.

**Kroem**

I think the book Hyperion by Dan Simmons is the one that comes most to mind.

The book is absolutely brilliant, full of just the right amount of explanation and mystery with a confident and brilliant cliff hanger ending that leaves you wanting more but is also perfect in the context of the story. I finished it thinking the author was an absolute genius and super aware of exactly what he was doing.

Unfortunately after a few years I was thinking about the book and wanted to revisit the universe, so despite being warned I read the 2nd book...

It basically explains all the mysteries through the course of a pretty hum-drum space opera, leaving the universe and characters feeling mundane and retro-actively ruining the book that came before it!
I couldn't believe the genius behind the first book could be behind it, but I guess him and me had very different ideas on why the first book was such a masterpiece.

**LunarSol**

ccs wrote:

Sounds like a genre....

It's more of a cross genre or medium. It's like saying movies are a genre, which you can argue if you compare them to books or plays or something which you can technically do but is kind of reductive of the medium. It's like saying an establishing shot is a trope of the movie genre.

I think the easy comparison is graphic novels. They're synonymous with super heroes, dominated by super heroes but not restricted to super heroes. Some of the greatest stories ever written come from comic books without a hint of spandex.

Anime gets dominated by power fantasy stuff, whether its shonen battlers or isekai fantasy worlds, but its definitely not all there is to it. It's just, like every for of entertainment out there, a matter of looking past the stuff designed to sell toys and merchandise and finding the places where someone is trying to craft something meaningful. Anime definitely has some of the best in that regard, but you won't find it if you file everything that looks like anime in the Nartuo bin.

**trexmeyer**

Western comics have works as diverse as Archie, From Hell, X-Men, Conan, etc, but the most popular are by far superhero comics.
Heck, Sabrina the Teenage Witch began as a comic book even if it's probably better known for the two television series.
It's the same thing for manga. If anything manga is more diverse, but anime adaptations are generally only the most popular or commercially viable which is basically isekai, shounen action, and the occasional romcom.
Putting Frieren, Spy X Hunter, Chainsaw Man, My Home Hero, Bocchi the Rock!, One Punch Man, Apocethary Diaries, etc, all in the same genre is asinine.

**Lathe Biosas**

trexmeyer wrote:
Western comics have works as diverse as Archie, From Hell, X-Men, Conan, etc, but the most popular are by far superhero comics.
Heck, Sabrina the Teenage Witch began as a comic book even if it's probably better known for the two television series.
It's the same thing for manga. If anything manga is more diverse, but anime adaptations are generally only the most popular or commercially viable which is basically isekai, shounen action, and the occasional romcom.
Putting Frieren, Spy X Hunter, Chainsaw Man, My Home Hero, Bocchi the Rock!, One Punch Man, Apocethary Diaries, etc, all in the same genre is asinine.

But the area is still called Comic Books. Even if V for Vendetta isn't funny, it's still a Comic Book. (Alan Moore says so, and he wrote it).

So genres are broad strokes that help people find what they want to read. There was once an issue where Books-a-Million wanted to add tons of new smaller sections of Horror-Thriller-etc, and then came the issue of breaking up writers. Does this mean Michael Crichton is going to be displaced into 14 different sections throughout the stores?

Issues like this have been going on for a while.

Now, back on topic:

I used to watch endless debates on science, religion, ethics, and whatnot online. I loved the different opinions and lines if questioning.

But in the recent years, this has dissolved into you're wrong, no you're wrong, nonsense.

As much as it seems like a good idea to put a flat earther up against a scientist. Its just going to dissolve into two people talking and no one listening.

I guess my tastes have changed, but a lot of these online debates seem like a monumental waste of time and effort.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Kroem wrote:
I think the book Hyperion by Dan Simmons is the one that comes most to mind.

The book is absolutely brilliant, full of just the right amount of explanation and mystery with a confident and brilliant cliff hanger ending that leaves you wanting more but is also perfect in the context of the story. I finished it thinking the author was an absolute genius and super aware of exactly what he was doing.

Unfortunately after a few years I was thinking about the book and wanted to revisit the universe, so despite being warned I read the 2nd book...

It basically explains all the mysteries through the course of a pretty hum-drum space opera, leaving the universe and characters feeling mundane and retro-actively ruining the book that came before it!
I couldn't believe the genius behind the first book could be behind it, but I guess him and me had very different ideas on why the first book was such a masterpiece.

I had pretty much the same experience. That second book just kept getting worse and worse as I progressed through it. The same thing happened with his other series, where Ilium felt brilliant, but I couldn’t even finish Olympos. I’m not giving Dan Simmons any more chances.

**trexmeyer**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

But the area is still called Comic Books.

Today I learned that books, radio, television, and film are all genres.
And music, can't forget that.

**Grey Templar**

Lathe Biosas wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
Western comics have works as diverse as Archie, From Hell, X-Men, Conan, etc, but the most popular are by far superhero comics.
Heck, Sabrina the Teenage Witch began as a comic book even if it's probably better known for the two television series.
It's the same thing for manga. If anything manga is more diverse, but anime adaptations are generally only the most popular or commercially viable which is basically isekai, shounen action, and the occasional romcom.
Putting Frieren, Spy X Hunter, Chainsaw Man, My Home Hero, Bocchi the Rock!, One Punch Man, Apocethary Diaries, etc, all in the same genre is asinine.

But the area is still called Comic Books. Even if V for Vendetta isn't funny, it's still a Comic Book. (Alan Moore says so, and he wrote it).

So genres are broad strokes that help people find what they want to read. There was once an issue where Books-a-Million wanted to add tons of new smaller sections of Horror-Thriller-etc, and then came the issue of breaking up writers. Does this mean Michael Crichton is going to be displaced into 14 different sections throughout the stores?

You are making the exact mistake I talked about. Confusing Genre with Medium. Comic Books are a Medium, not a Genre.

Genres would be things like, Westerns, Super Heros, Noir, Shonen, Romance, etc...

Mediums are things like, Film, Anime, Cartoons, Comic Books, etc...

Genres can occur in any Medium, and any Medium can have Genres. Mediums can even have sub-mediums potentially. Sometimes specific Mediums have stereotypes associated with them.

Example: Comic Books have the Super Hero as a stereotypical association. But not nearly all Comic Books are super hero focused. I would classify Manga as a sub-type of Comic Book, being a very very broad artstyle which originated in Japan for their comic books being a blend of older Japanese illustrative art styles and Western Comic book styles with Anime simply being the adaptation of Manga to animated film.

Genres on the other hand are cross-Medium. You can find Romance genre things in literally every medium that has ever existed. Romance Movies, Books, TV shows, Comics, Manga, Anime, etc...

**Ahtman**

I started watching anime back in the early 80's when Lensman or Robotech were shown at weird hours on TV and the only way to get anime was bootleg or import VHS yet at some point in the last decade or so I just lost any interest in it. Now mind you this pretty much only applies to series and not films whereas video games are a mixed bag on this front. I know that there is a wide variety of presentation and genre but at this point if it isn't a recommendation from someone I know I'm just not interested. I feel tired of seeing it and what bothers me is I really don't know why; I can't really pin any specific thing down how I got to this point.

I tend to not like media that go on and on and on and on and on and on, but that isn't remotely an issue unique to anime.

I was told I might enjoy Delicious in Dungeon, maybe I should go give it a watch.

**Flinty**

It’s weird. It’s not so much that it’s so bad it puts me off, I’m just not sure I’m actually enjoying it, or just watching it.

**Lathe Biosas**

I tried to go back and watch shows thst I enjoyed as a kid, and I just can't watch more than en episode before my brain tells me that we could be doing anything else... I can't believe I used to enjoy this stuff.

Shows I've attempted to watch:
1. Captain Planet
2. GoBots
3. Transformers (The original series)
4. Knight Rider
5. The A*Team
6. Thundercats
7. Masters of the Universe
8. Silverhawks
9. Automan
10. Riptide
11. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

The only shows I've enjoyed during my little experiment have been:

1. Airwolf
2. Mission: Impossible
3. GI JOE (Due to some of it being really dark, "Let's have an episode where we torture Shipwreck into believing he has a loving family, and then have his loving family melt in his arms.")
4. Captain Power
5. Simon & Simon

5/16 so far on the nostalgia train.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

The only show I couldn’t get into again from my childhood was M.A.S.K.

Excellent theme song, amazing toys. But that cartoon is just too kiddy for me.

Not that there’s owt wrong with kiddy. But it’s not for me.

**Crispy78**

Not watched M.A.S.K. in ages. Loved it back in the day. My brother and I had nearly all the toys between us. I vaguely remember there was a weird pivot towards the end of the cartoon where they seemingly changed from secret agencies of heroes and villains to just rival race teams or something, with no explanation. Was weird.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I think it’s Scott and T-Bob that irked me the most.

Give me No-no or Oon any day. But not T-Bob. He should be repurposed into a non-verbal Rice Cooker.

**Lathe Biosas**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think it’s Scott and T-Bob that irked me the most.

Give me No-no or Oon any day. But not T-Bob. He should be repurposed into a non-verbal Rice Cooker.

This seems like another thread idea is brewing... off to post.

**Ahtman**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

The only shows I've enjoyed during my little experiment have been:

1. Airwolf
2. Mission: Impossible
3. GI JOE (Due to some of it being really dark, "Let's have an episode where we torture Shipwreck into believing he has a loving family, and then have his loving family melt in his arms.")
4. Captain Power
5. Simon & Simon

You brought it up so now this is happening:

Spoiler:

Magnum, PI has held up fairly well. Did you see the sunrise this morning?

**SamusDrake**

Dr Who.

I remember being upset when they cancelled the show in the late 80s, and have always kept that in mind, but it got to the point where I just couldn't stand watching it anymore.

**trexmeyer**

Battlestar Galactica's ending is so bad that it arguably ruins the rest of the series. There's a fair bit of stupid writing before that point as well.
I can't decide if BSG or GoT has a worse finale. Both of the final two seasons are consistently dumb.

Babylon 5 has a god awful major plot resolution and the final season is weak...I would have defended it in the past, but in all honesty season 5 has multiple plot elements that are inexcusably stupid or racist.

The X-Files myth arc episodes are pointless because the resolution has been retconned multiple times at this point and all of the 'answers' have been dumb.
The monster of the week episodes are consistently amazing. It's the complete opposite of many series where you'd want to skip the 'bottle' episodes. Even the mediocre MotW episodes are generally fun.

On a positive note, I don't enjoy the American Psycho film because it's a tad bit too dark for me, but it's brilliantly executed and acted. I didn't appreciate that at first. OTOH, I'd rather swallow glass shards than sit through Fight Club again.

**Lathe Biosas**

trexmeyer wrote:
Battlestar Galactica's ending is so bad that it arguably ruins the rest of the series. There's a fair bit of stupid writing before that point as well.
I can't decide if BSG or GoT has a worse finale. Both of the final two seasons are consistently dumb.

Babylon 5 has a god awful major plot resolution and the final season is weak...I would have defended it in the past, but in all honesty season 5 has multiple plot elements that are inexcusably stupid or racist.

The X-Files myth arc episodes are pointless because the resolution has been retconned multiple times at this point and all of the 'answers' have been dumb.
The monster of the week episodes are consistently amazing. It's the complete opposite of many series where you'd want to skip the 'bottle' episodes. Even the mediocre MotW episodes are generally fun.

On a positive note, I don't enjoy the American Psycho film because it's a tad bit too dark for me, but it's brilliantly executed and acted. I didn't appreciate that at first. OTOH, I'd rather swallow glass shards than sit through Fight Club again.

I do have to defend one thing about Babylon 5. They thought the show was only going to be 4 seasons, so they crammed everything into Season 4. Season 5 was approved after they wrapped Season 4.

But Season 5 wasn't very good.

**trexmeyer**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

I do have to defend one thing about Babylon 5. They thought the show was only going to be 4 seasons, so they crammed everything into Season 4. Season 5 was approved after they wrapped Season 4.

But Season 5 wasn't very good.

I'm aware of the behind scenes drama.

However...

Spoiler:

**Lathe Biosas**

trexmeyer wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:

I do have to defend one thing about Babylon 5. They thought the show was only going to be 4 seasons, so they crammed everything into Season 4. Season 5 was approved after they wrapped Season 4.

But Season 5 wasn't very good.

I'm aware of the behind scenes drama.

However...

Spoiler:

The Lyta plotline would never happen IRL. You'd have to be the world's biggest idiot to not realize her power and then isolate her to the point she accepts Bester's deal.
The League of Non-Aligned Worlds are portrayed as veritable window lickers easily hoodwinked by Sheridan's simplistic schemes.
Sheridan's first wife is a nonsensical asspull to generate needless drama.

Yeah. I'd forgotten all about

Spoiler:

.

Still better than Crusade? Right? Or Legend of the Rangers?

**aku-chan**

For me it would have to be Martial Arts films.

Absolutely loved them as a teenager, was a huge Jackie Chan fan, but I've made a few attempts at getting back into them in recent years, and I just find them so boring now with a lot of misplaced comedy elements.

Not sure what changed, as I'm still a fan of a big, dumb action movie, but that particular sub-genre just doesn't do it for me now.

**The_Real_Chris**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

5. The A*Team

In their defence it is pretty much the only show which is exactly how I remember it. Doesn't mean I enjoy it as I did when I could go the nieghbours house and watch it on their TV, but it is one of the few were my memory hasn't played tricks on me.

Compared to...

1. Airwolf

Good gods. Communists! Everywhere! Its a great show to watch for this reason, I had completely forgotten how dripping in anti communist propaganda and messaging a lot of (especially US) media was. We got some, but I think it was more anti Russia as why let old habits die. Chatting to yanks its incredible the amount of explicitly anti communist messaging you were fed overtly.

Plus of course the global communist conspiracy never went away!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Televised Sport.

Specifically Darts and Snooker. They were so boring as a kid.

Hated sport as a kid. Still hate it now. But Darts and Snooker? I love watching them.

I think it’s because they’re both instantly accessible. Darts? A pub near you will have a Dartboard you can play on. Snooker? Working Men’s Club or Snooker Club, and you’re away. Which gives me a much stronger appreciation for just how ridiculously good the top flight players are.

Football and Rugby and that? There’s the disconnect of just how swift the players are when viewed on the screen. Also the commentary often makes me think someone needs to pass them some tissues.

**Vulcan**

trexmeyer wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:

I do have to defend one thing about Babylon 5. They thought the show was only going to be 4 seasons, so they crammed everything into Season 4. Season 5 was approved after they wrapped Season 4.

But Season 5 wasn't very good.

I'm aware of the behind scenes drama.

However...

Spoiler:

The Lyta plotline would never happen IRL. You'd have to be the world's biggest idiot to not realize her power and then isolate her to the point she accepts Bester's deal.
The League of Non-Aligned Worlds are portrayed as veritable window lickers easily hoodwinked by Sheridan's simplistic schemes.
Sheridan's first wife is a nonsensical asspull to generate needless drama.

Spoiler:

**LunarSol**

aku-chan wrote:
For me it would have to be Martial Arts films.

Absolutely loved them as a teenager, was a huge Jackie Chan fan, but I've made a few attempts at getting back into them in recent years, and I just find them so boring now with a lot of misplaced comedy elements.

Not sure what changed, as I'm still a fan of a big, dumb action movie, but that particular sub-genre just doesn't do it for me now.

In their time there was nothing like them. Compared to the action you saw elsewhere they were top of the line. These days, what they created has seeped into everything, so you're kind of just left with their story and acting, which were not exactly strong points.

**Lathe Biosas**

LunarSol wrote:
aku-chan wrote:
For me it would have to be Martial Arts films.

Absolutely loved them as a teenager, was a huge Jackie Chan fan, but I've made a few attempts at getting back into them in recent years, and I just find them so boring now with a lot of misplaced comedy elements.

Not sure what changed, as I'm still a fan of a big, dumb action movie, but that particular sub-genre just doesn't do it for me now.

In their time there was nothing like them. Compared to the action you saw elsewhere they were top of the line. These days, what they created has seeped into everything, so you're kind of just left with their story and acting, which were not exactly strong points.

That's the issue with a lot of older shows/movies... it was new and there was nothing to compare it to.

Yesterday, Iron Eagle was on television. That movie was cool when it came out, now it looks, sounds, and feels really bad. I couldn't even finish watching it.