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Imperial, and so presumably Chaos, ships are noted for high, vaulted ceilings in places. Not something noted in modern battleships.

I don’t think that’s going to be all of them, but it’s still a space wasting feature in certain areas.

Not sure if that’s throws off the calculations any.

The Ark Mechanicus Speranza had a large enough internal space for titan battles (but Speranza was noted as being size of a continent).

The Imperium is also a mix of high tech and low tech. So although they have chain gangs hauling on chains to reload guns and torpedo tubes, they also have black box machines that nobody touches except maybe the Tech-Priests and even then probably only when it is docked at a shipyard. These can include the warp engines, the realspace engines, the reactors, the various steampunk-like computer systems, recycling systems for air and water, and lots of power conduits (plus redundant backups). Then there are also the warehouses used to store consumables like food. The mistake people make is calculating a volume for a ship and then thinking to fill that volume with crew, whereas the actual number of crew is really dependent on how many are actually necessary to run the ship.

The Imperium is known for lavish quarters for the highest admirals (Lord Ravensburg was said to have had a set of luxurious quarters to house his concubines), grand vaulted open spaces (to awe individuals and to show them how insignificant they are) and rat warren crawlspaces and living quarters for the low level crewmen.

It’s also not a uniform thing.

So Lunar Class A might have the same pattern weapons as Lunar Class B. However, Lunar Class A has still operational autoloaders. Lunar Class B’s auto loaders have long since broken down to an irreparable state (damage or neglect), and so Lunar Class B depends on human power to reload its batteries.

Lunar Class C has energy based broadside weapons, and so gets its ammo straight from the ship’s Plasma Reactor.

So not everything is in the exact same state of decay and disrepair. And it won’t necessarily be forever. Lunar Class B may still be repaired at some point in the future, if it happens to dock over a suitably equipped Forgeworld or Naval Station. Until then, what is presumably a jury rigged manual reloading cycle will remain in place. Because it works well enough.

It might remain knackered for weeks, months, years, even decades. It might remain knackered forever.

This is something we see elsewhere within The Imperium. For instance, the Shadowsword Super Heavy Tank. Should the Volcano Cannon be damaged or breakdown and the local area doesn’t have the resources to repair or replace? It can be replaced with another gun, changing its classification.

Whether any such adjusted examples are ever converted back is something I don’t know.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


This is something we see elsewhere within The Imperium. For instance, the Shadowsword Super Heavy Tank. Should the Volcano Cannon be damaged or breakdown and the local area doesn’t have the resources to repair or replace? It can be replaced with another gun, changing its classification.

Whether any such adjusted examples are ever converted back is something I don’t know.

Likely no. We have the example of the Dictator class cruiser which arose from replacing the damaged lance turrets of Lunar class cruisers with launch decks. For the 40K Imperium, lances are rarer and trickier pieces of technology so repairing the lance turrets would presumably have taken longer as there were no parts in supply or would have taken longer simply for the repair process and they needed the ship back in action as quickly as possible. Once converted, we have no examples of Dictator cruisers being converted back, and then once the class was accepted, there were ships built as Dictator class from the very beginning.

Tygre wrote:


Your math is probably wrong. Ten of thousands of cubic metres per crewman is unlikely. I don't have the volume, but going by length. (I cant remember if it was 3.2km or 3.6km for a Lunar class)
8*1500 = 12000 crew or 8*2000 = 16000 crew. 12000 crew/3200 metres = 3.75 12000 crew / 3600 metres = 3.33 16000/3200 = 5 1600/3600 = 4.44 crew per metre. So 3.3 to 5 crew per metre.

1980ish USS Iowa had ~1800 crew and 262m long, so 6.87 crew per metre.
HMS Vanguard 1975 crew and 248 long, so 7.96 crew per metre.

Bit sparser than IRL battleships. But not that out there. Volume will change things but this will give better ballpark figures.

Wow, everything you said is wrong.

Volume increases to the cube of length, that's basic mathematics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Unless my math is totally wrong, that's tens of thousands of cubic metres per crewman, equivalent to one person manning an entire early 20th century capital ship. To get the crew density of actual warships, you would need to have something like 99% of the volume filled with unmanned systems. While there's certainly a possibility that 40k void-ships have vast tanks of reaction mass, I doubt that would explain it (even realistic spacecraft would only dedicate around two thirds of their mass and maybe 90% of their volume to reaction mass). Art does make it seem like the interiors are very spacious and sparsely populated, but still not to the extent that a few tens of thousands of people in several cubic kilometres (billions of cubic metres) of ship would imply.

Playing around with a model of a cruiser in meshmixer, I'm getting slightly less than half a billion cubic meters (4.8e+8). For a battleship, I'm getting 3.15 billion cubic meters.
And that's using the Andy Chamber scale (3.5 km for the cruiser, 5.5km for the battleship).

Don't forget the Ammuniton.

Macrocannons, Torpedoes, and Nova Cannon shot are all physical items that must be stored.

Volume matters a lot. Exponentials aren't intuitive for a lot of people, so they don't realise quite how much of a difference there is between n and n cubed. If a ship had the same proportions as the Iowa, but was 12.2 times as long, it would occupy 1,816 times as much volume. That's well over a hundred times as much space per meter of length.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Don't forget the Ammuniton.

Macrocannons, Torpedoes, and Nova Cannon shot are all physical items that must be stored.

If, and I’m not making this a specific claim, all extant Imperial and Chaos ship classes are developed from the same source technology as the original Colony Ships? They may well have space dedicated to manufacturing their ammo.

Granted, that also must involve at least some warehousing space for the raw materials. But provided those remain inert until manufactured, it would require less specialised storage.

We do know there are dedicated Factory Ships out there, most notably within the independent fleets of Forgeworlds. But given the staggering size of all Imperial Ships? Having some ammo manufacturing capacity may relieve some logistical stresses. Don’t need to get the finished shells/rounds/charges or whatever, just some/all of the raw materials.

 Tyran wrote:

Tygre wrote:


Your math is probably wrong. Ten of thousands of cubic metres per crewman is unlikely. I don't have the volume, but going by length. (I cant remember if it was 3.2km or 3.6km for a Lunar class)
8*1500 = 12000 crew or 8*2000 = 16000 crew. 12000 crew/3200 metres = 3.75 12000 crew / 3600 metres = 3.33 16000/3200 = 5 1600/3600 = 4.44 crew per metre. So 3.3 to 5 crew per metre.

1980ish USS Iowa had ~1800 crew and 262m long, so 6.87 crew per metre.
HMS Vanguard 1975 crew and 248 long, so 7.96 crew per metre.

Bit sparser than IRL battleships. But not that out there. Volume will change things but this will give better ballpark figures.

Wow, everything you said is wrong.

Volume increases to the cube of length, that's basic mathematics.

I was in a hurry when I posted this but my maths is correct, as I did state per length. I did not have the volume and I stated such. Saying 'everything' is wrong is a bit rude. You should of said that volume changes things more than you think. To quote myself "Volume will change things but this will give better ballpark figures."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Unless my math is totally wrong, that's tens of thousands of cubic metres per crewman, equivalent to one person manning an entire early 20th century capital ship. To get the crew density of actual warships, you would need to have something like 99% of the volume filled with unmanned systems. While there's certainly a possibility that 40k void-ships have vast tanks of reaction mass, I doubt that would explain it (even realistic spacecraft would only dedicate around two thirds of their mass and maybe 90% of their volume to reaction mass). Art does make it seem like the interiors are very spacious and sparsely populated, but still not to the extent that a few tens of thousands of people in several cubic kilometres (billions of cubic metres) of ship would imply.

Playing around with a model of a cruiser in meshmixer, I'm getting slightly less than half a billion cubic meters (4.8e+8). For a battleship, I'm getting 3.15 billion cubic meters.
And that's using the Andy Chamber scale (3.5 km for the cruiser, 5.5km for the battleship).

You have the volume, great. I was sceptical but ten's of thousands of cubic metres per crew seems correct. (4.8e+8)/(8 hit points * 2000) = 1 crew per 300,000 cubic metres.

Imperial cruisers according to Andy Chambers can also transport a regiment (I guess the baseline would be an infantry regiment), so some of that volume would be their living quarters and associated facilities for them to eat and keep in shape during the journey through the warp to their destination. If not transporting troops at any particular time, this volume would be empty unused space.

There are a lot of unknowns about how Imperial void ships operate, and there is a massive dose of authors and model designers just making stuff up to support satisfying looking models.

However, the following things are needed to operate and will take substantial volume: Engines (sublight and warp), all the other technical gubbinz, life support equipment, armour, weapons, superstructure, flight decks (for attack craft and for general utility craft), consumables for all of the above and to support the crew. Crew requirements are directly related to the status of automated systems.

40k ships are massive because thats how they have evolved, and all 40k is over the top. It may be that there are proper in-universe reasons as to why one absolutely massive ship is better than lots and lots of tiny ships, but its hard to see that from the outside.

The fluff is also clear that most imperial ships are full of massive sets of unused space. I wonder if part of it is that 40k authors don't have a great handle on how many people are required to prosecute hostilities across interstellar distances.

"This ship is carrying a regiment" doesn't quite cut it, despite all the BL novels to the contrary. It might be that the ability of Imperial capital ships to feasibly carry millions of troops actually better matches the resources needed to invade remote systems.

I think calculations for crew per cubic meters are strange. There is engines which are huge. warp drives, power core, superstructur + armor. Communications like pipes, wires, food/water reserves, thoutgh water can be reused. still you need solid reserves. Some technical reservoirse like severse collectors. fuel for fighters/bombers. manufactirum inside ship to restore your ammunition( at least twice mentioned in hh books, so i think imperium still use them) SPARE PARTS. they in the void for years. if you put everything in hull you get not so much spare space

 Flinty wrote:

"This ship is carrying a regiment" doesn't quite cut it, despite all the BL novels to the contrary. It might be that the ability of Imperial capital ships to feasibly carry millions of troops actually better matches the resources needed to invade remote systems.

Cruisers may carry a regiment but dedicated troop transports can carry more. The 1 regiment capacity seems to be so that any Imperial fleet with at least one cruiser has some ability to attack and occupy ground targets so that even a lone cruiser scattered by the warp would still have some capability to seize some ground. Full scale planetary invasions obviously require dedicated transports, as transporting lone regiments by warship is not an efficient way to ferry ground forces to targets.

Given the grand scale of imperial warships, they could probably transport a regiment by having them camp out in the hallways.

Probably a few…

In 'The Greater Evil' a patrol ship (unknown type) only has a squad or two of boarding troops (drawn from the Eleventh Exordio Void Breachers Astra Militarum Regiment) - but might have started out at Company strength.

 Nevelon wrote:
Given the grand scale of imperial warships, they could probably transport a regiment by having them camp out in the hallways.

Probably a few…

Fitting people in and keeping them fed, watered and abluted aren’t the same things.

For an intended “short as it possibly can be” emergency evacuation? Sure. No problem. Squeeze as many aboard as you can without overly interfering in the day to day business of running and maintaining the ship.

But for deploying to a warzone, or as part of an ongoing campaign? Much less so. It’s going to be uncomfortable and stressful enough for the passengers. Add in short rations and a lack of even the rudest form of basic amenities and you’re just asking for serious trouble.

Sounds like the Imperium to me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Given the grand scale of imperial warships, they could probably transport a regiment by having them camp out in the hallways.

Probably a few…

Fitting people in and keeping them fed, watered and abluted aren’t the same things.

For an intended “short as it possibly can be” emergency evacuation? Sure. No problem. Squeeze as many aboard as you can without overly interfering in the day to day business of running and maintaining the ship.

But for deploying to a warzone, or as part of an ongoing campaign? Much less so. It’s going to be uncomfortable and stressful enough for the passengers. Add in short rations and a lack of even the rudest form of basic amenities and you’re just asking for serious trouble.

Obviously not as ideal as a troop ship. You can’t dig latrines, but can set up portapotties and run waste down to recycling. Some supplies they can get from the ship’s quartermaster. But I suspect the guard has 0 supply protocols for when deployed to toxic environments. What do they do when they can’t drink the local water? Nobody is going to enjoy it, but it could be made to work.

Gert wrote:Sounds like the Imperium to me.

Crammed on a uncomfortable warp trip just to be sent down to some warzone to die in minutes. On brand.

I think people overstate that last bit, to be honest.

The Imperium is unthinkingly cruel, sure. But by our standards.

We’re repeatedly told, and with an appreciably straight face, that kind of like the Yorkshireman skit? Life in the Guard is luxury and paradise compared to remaining some mook in a Hive. Or being resigned to being stuck on an Agriworld.

So when discussing such things? We have to assume a much higher tolerance for stressful and unpleasant living conditions with The Imperium because so very few know anything different whatsoever.

Consider me in the modern day. I’ve just been to the Smallest Room. Where “one flush, and it’s gone” is met with soft TP and when I’m done crimping off a length of dirty spine? Hot water on demand to clean my hands.

Compare that to someone even 100 years ago. I don’t even have to go to an outside or communal cludgy. My thunderbox is for my cheeks only.

Even within my own lifetime? Ever greater convenience and comfort has become even more The Standard.

To someone from Medieval Times? My life is absolutely unending indolent luxury. Nevermind there are plenty folk with way, way more money than I’ll ever have - my life is super easy in the grand scheme of things.

But for your average Imperial Citizen? For untold generations all they’ve known is the life we find so repressive and abhorrent. If all you’ve ever known or been exposed to is some gassy, pissy, mass produced lager, how can you wish for a proper ale packed with flavours bold and subtle? If said gassy, pissy, mass produced lager is the only luxury you’ll ever look forward to after your shift? It’s still a luxury.

In the Guard you at least don’t have to overly worry where your food and water/drink is coming from. Your uniform isn’t hand me down or makeshift rags. When it comes to a fight you’re about as reliably resupplied as one might hope.

So what is a few weeks or months crammed into ship on the way to your next engagement….provided the experience is genuinely no worst than the one you grew up with. Because luxury is entirely relative.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Your uniform isn’t hand me down or makeshift rags

Krieg Quartermasters beg to differ.

Is it hand me down if you’re all clones?

I say nay.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think people overstate that last bit, to be honest.

The Imperium is unthinkingly cruel, sure. But by our standards.

No it's definitely by any standards. WW2 Britain is bad "by modern standards". The Imperium is bad by mid Great Terror USSR and Endsieg Nazi Germany standards.

Yet, and this is my point? To its citizens, it’s just normal. Hence we need to be careful when applying modern sensibilities and tolerances to the setting.

Which kinda adds to the horror.

With how incredibly large some imperila ships can be, I wonder how long a boarding action could last. I could see whole armies pushing back and forth for days, shift across different sections of the ship. This could potentially go on for days, or weeks even, if neither side had support or a dominant position.

That would make for one hell of a boarding action campaign.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
With how incredibly large some imperila ships can be, I wonder how long a boarding action could last. I could see whole armies pushing back and forth for days, shift across different sections of the ship. This could potentially go on for days, or weeks even, if neither side had support or a dominant position.

That would make for one hell of a boarding action campaign.

Andy Chambers said the time scale for BFG was a telescoping scale from several hours at long range to 15 minutes per turn at short range.

By boarding action, there also needs to be the distinction between those and hit and run raids (which are more likely what Space Marines do). In BFG there is a difference between the two. Hit and run raids are raids by small numbers of boarders to knock out specific sub-systems such as weapons or drive systems and then extract. Boarding actions are meant to try to take over the enemy ship and are full scale asasults may result in mass casualties for both sides.

IIRC, Imperial factions kinda sucked at full scale boarding actions. They were mostly the domain of Orks and Tyranids that can pull off the numbers needed to fill a ship to the brim.

The 40K Imperial Navy Breachers are what Imperial ships use for boarding or defending against boarding. Factions that got bonuses to boarding actions or hit and run attacks were those like SM, CSM, Orks, and Tyranids. Basically they were all factions that were robust and which would excel in tight confines where the weaker enemy cannot so easily bring numbers or heavy weapons to bear.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imperial, and so presumably Chaos, ships are noted for high, vaulted ceilings in places. Not something noted in modern battleships.

I don’t think that’s going to be all of them, but it’s still a space wasting feature in certain areas.

Not sure if that’s throws off the calculations any.

the ships will also have manfactoriums to keep producing ammo, weapons, hull plating and so on. I always like the feeling of size you got watching Alien. The nostramo was a huge factory staffed by 8 people (I think) - so much space for a cheeky alien to hide in.

And think about imperial ships that have become space hulks lost in the warp and have become living cities with 10's maybe 100's fo generations of population growth. Those people have to go somewhere.

A boarding action could probably take years to complete. Hell the boarding party might fly off with the ship while there's still fighting in the lower decks.