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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081211/ts_csm/otaser

By Ben Quinn Ben Quinn – Thu Dec 11, 3:00 am ET
London – They're one of Britain's best known icons: helmeted bobbies, or policemen, who make their rounds on a bicycle or on foot, armed only with pepper spray and a nightstick.

But more bobbies may soon carry something more threatening. As police face greater dangers on the job, the government is extending the use of Taser stun guns beyond specialist units to tens of thousands of front-line officers. It's a move that faces resistance from lawmakers, advocacy groups, and even some bobbies – and could change forever the face of one of the world's only largely unarmed police forces.

The debate over the 50,000-volt stun guns – designed to shoot wired darts that temporarily disable suspects – has intensified this week amid two high-profile cases alleging excessive use of force.

"We are still predominantly unarmed," says Paul Davis, a spokesperson for the federation and a 25-year police veteran.

But, he adds, "if you look at the changing face of society, it would appear that more people are willing to challenge authority figures than they once were."

Tasers, he says, enable police to respect the "right to life" in situations where firearms might otherwise by used.

But opposition has grown amid charges that officers may not be properly trained and that the weapons can be used too frequently – and result in death.

In the US, for example, two-thirds of police departments are equipped with electroshock weapons. According to Amnesty International, the guns have played a role in more than 320 deaths in the US and Canada in the past decade. Most wrongful-death lawsuits involving them have ended up favoring police. Canadian authorities, however, are reexamining the weapons after a recent report suggests the jolt might be excessive.

Arms-free tradition
Arms-free policing has been a tradition in Britain since Scotland Yard's founding in 1829. "The UK has always prided itself on its approach to 'policing by consent,' rather than 'compliance by pain,' " says Oliver Sprague, Amnesty International UK's arms program director.

When it comes to firearms, most of the rank and file resist carrying them, according to their union, the Police Federation, which found in 2006 that 82 percent of members do not want to routinely carry guns. Only a highly trained fraction of police may carry firearms.

But some 37 British police officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past two decades in England, Wales, and Scotland. The most recent death was of an officer who was fatally stabbed in June 2007, prompting one populist British tabloid, The Daily Express, to crusade for a change of policy with the front page headline: "Now Arm All Our Police."

The calls were supported by some relatives of slain police officers, but have not been taken up by Parliament.

The debate over wide use of stun guns, however, is taking place at a time of shaken public confidence in armed policing.

On Tuesday, two senior police officers faced a disciplinary hearing over the use of a stun gun in 2005 against an unresponsive man riding a bus in the English city of Leeds. The incident happened less than a week after a series of suicide bomb attacks in London. The rider, Nicholas Gaubert, was clutching a rucksack when he fell unconscious – and police, on high alert, Tasered him after he failed to respond to questions. Mr. Gaubert says the experience left him suffering severe post-traumatic stress.

Also this week, a jury verdict is being awaited in the inquest into a fatal police shooting of an innocent Brazilian immigrant on a London Underground train shortly after the July 7, 2005, terrorist attacks. Police say they mistook Jean Charles de Menezes for a suicide bomber.

Front-line police officers in the United Kingdom routinely carry guns only in Northern Ireland, where they face a lingering, though much reduced, threat from IRA splinter groups. In Europe, the only other countries where police officers are predominantly unarmed are Norway, Iceland, and the Republic of Ireland.

Firearms are carried by many officers in Europe, where a tradition of often heavily armed paramilitary police forces exists in countries such as France (the National Gendarmerie) and Italy (the Carabinieri). In Greece, the use of lethal force by police last weekend led to rioting in several cities after a teenager was shot dead.

So far, the biggest obstacle to the government stun-gun expansion plans has been a refusal by London's Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) to join in. The MPA said extending Tasers to front-line officers had the potential to "cause fear and damage public confidence."

Mr. Sprague, with Amnesty International, warned that widespread and routine deployments of Taser stun guns could lead to the weapons being misused. Widespread deployment of the weapon in Britain could cause the country to lose its reputation for having a relatively gentle police service, Sprague says.

"It's fair to say that the UK police force sets the standard when it comes to policing around the world," he says.

Streets getting tougher
On a frosty afternoon this month, the risks taken on a daily basis by Britain's army of bobbies, becomes clear midway through a patrol by Sgt. Mark Fenton and two colleagues of their beat in the district of Hackney, East London, which has some of the highest gang violence in the city.

Something, they note, isn't quite right about a car parked on a quiet side street with two young men inside. After a chat, and running their names through a computer, up flashes a warning that one has a conviction for firearms offenses.

Taking care to keep the men talking inside their car, the three unarmed officers quietly radio for backup, and only carry out a thorough search when help arrives. Although nothing incriminating turns up, the incident underlines the potential stakes in a confrontation between gun-wielding criminals and policemen armed and protected with batons, pepper spray and "stabproof" vests.

After he and his colleagues finish their search of the car, Police Constable Alex Henshaw explains that, even here, "policing by consent" is the guiding principle.

"You cannot operate without it. Otherwise you would get into confrontation after confrontation," he says.

"If people don't feel detached or frightened of you, then they are more likely to contact you, and intelligence is one of the most important resources we have."

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..






Toowoomba, Australia

Its all about the drugs.... anywhere the drugs are big, firearms follow.

Mandatory execution for all illegal drug users and dealers... no more firearms, and the police can continue to whack people with their asp's.

Simple solution for a complex world brought to you by Waaagh_Gonads.

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Canterbury

See ? In a decent civilised country you don't need armed police.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

Or you could just drop the drug laws all together.

No crime caused by gangs fighting for their ability to sell. Twice as much space in prison and twice the sentances for violent criminals.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in gb
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





London.

I'm not sure this will come about, although I can see the case. My pappy is a Chief Inspector, and has been offered the option of using a firearm several times in his career. He always maintained that you'd never want that hanging over your conscience; the responsibility of anothers life in your hands. If a police officer in the UK kills someone with a firearm, it's usually front page news, and the officer concerned will face an enormous investigation. Strange how different the UK is to the US in its law enforcement, but then the British public can't buy ammo or firearms with the (relative) ease that our US counterparts can. Horses for courses...

By the way, I think your choice of topic certainly suits the subject material, Frazzled

I really should be spending my time more constructively. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Buzz...no must admit I stole that title...bzzzzap!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Anti-Mag wrote:I'm not sure this will come about,


Really ? I'm pretty certain it will. One more step towards our glorious european hegemony.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Sooner or later Britain is going to have to get serious about enforcing laws. Now, it does not necessarily follow that they will enact good laws or bad laws to enforce, but not enforcing anything is pretty much doomed.

Good article find Frazzled


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Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Two Rivers, WI

I feel the big problem with tasers is a real lack of training. In fact, I would say a big problem with most things is a lack of training. They are seen as a non-lethal tool so they don't get the respect someone should give a device that shoots electricity.

   
Made in gb
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





London.

Wehrkind wrote:Sooner or later Britain is going to have to get serious about enforcing laws)


I think Britain is pretty serious about enforcing its laws. The fact that we have specialised firearms teams as opposed to the ubiquitous arming of officers affirms this, surely? I know London is a hub of gangs, prostitution and drugs (as it has been since the time of Shakespeare), but the fact that this is still well controlled shows that the British Police are well trained and excellent at their jobs.
One only has to look at the regular riots in France, and more recently Greece, to see that in terms of policing, the UK is amongst the best in Europe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 22:12:41


I really should be spending my time more constructively. 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Two Rivers, WI

Now that I'm reading that, I should state training in when to use, not how to use. Sure I'll take a taser or a bullet any day, but I think the cops are too quick to use them in some cases. Where a gun is never fired lightly.

   
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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Wehrkind wrote:Sooner or later Britain is going to have to get serious about enforcing laws.



err.... what ? Yeah, we have no laws over here what so ever. We cower in our homes in fear. [/facepalm]

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Don't taze me BRO!

And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

I read this as boobies with tazers... sorry I got instantly interested.

 
   
Made in gb
Grumpy Longbeard






reds8n wrote:
Wehrkind wrote:Sooner or later Britain is going to have to get serious about enforcing laws.



err.... what ? Yeah, we have no laws over here what so ever. We cower in our homes in fear. [/facepalm]


I'm currently bolted into my house with as many teabags and crumpets as I could get down at the local corner shop because those bloomin' bobbies don't care about stopping crime, they bloody love it.

This shouldn't really need stating, but just because you don't shoot someone doesn't mean you aren't serious. You yanks need telling this more often if you ask me...

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink. 
   
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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

I'll trade you some kitkats for crumpets ?

But the situation is intolerable. This calls for a really stiff letter to both the Times and the Radio Times. That'll teach'em !

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Grumpy Longbeard






I'm getting my thesaurus out. I mean business! And sir, you are of course welcome to as many crumpets as you please, I'm quite partial to a kitkat myself old bean. Us english fellows have to band together in times of dire need such as these, gangs of vagabonds running amok unchecked by balggard police, why, I tell you.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





The USA





im all for police using force.... dont do the crime, and you dont have much to worry about.

   
Made in gb
Grumpy Longbeard






Envy89 wrote:

im all for police using force.... dont do the crime, and you dont have much to worry about.



Funny vid.

Google John Charles De Menezes, and you'll see why we don't want British police armed more.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Greebynog wrote:I'm getting my thesaurus out. I mean business! And sir, you are of course welcome to as many crumpets as you please, I'm quite partial to a kitkat myself old bean. Us english fellows have to band together in times of dire need such as these, gangs of vagabonds running amok unchecked by balggard police, why, I tell you.


Hear hear ! Why as I was telling the vicar just the other, some rapscallions-- or perhaps they were scullions or rampalians-- overturned a litter bin in Shaftesbury avenue ! Disgraceful !

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Annapolis, MD, USA

I think this is a good idea as long as officers are trained in the proper ways about when to apply force. Just cause they k=now have the capability to taze people doesn't mean they should do so willy nilly but should still operate with caution in applying that force.

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The Great State of Texas

With proper training they should be fine and much better than just beating someone with a stick. First generation taser adopters did it under the proviso that it was much less dangerous for the perpetrators, as police now had a submission option that didn’t involve potentially permanently injuring or killing someone.

Hit ‘em with a taser - usually just fine.

Hit ’em with a stick, and you have a good chance of permanent injury. Just ask Rodney King.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





More actual police on the street would be the first step.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

sexiest_hero wrote:Don't taze me BRO!

(did he just call me "bro"?)
...
BzzzZZAAPPPP!!!


The moral of the story? Don't call a stranger "bro".



   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Frazzled wrote:Hit ‘em with a taser - usually just fine.

Hit ’em with a stick, and you have a good chance of permanent injury. Just ask Rodney King.

That depends entirely on training.

If you taze somebody with a heart condition, and keep the juice flowing, there's a pretty fair chance you can kill them "accidentally".

If the guy with a stick knows what he is doing, he can generate a tremendous amount of non-permanent, non-lethal pain. That is why nightsticks are used for "pain compliance".

   
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Lawrence, KS (United States)

Now the British will be able to experience what United States criminals have been experiencing for decades!

Pain is an illusion of the senses, Despair an illusion of the mind.


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This is shocking.

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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Pfffrt.

It is good to arm them with the Tasers, as it means any wee Junie that pulls a knife can get a good shock before, ahem, falling down the stairs.....

We don't need Guns, because we are largely civilised over here. Sometimes armed Police are necessary, but were we to Gun up *all* the Police, then the criminal fraternity would do likewise. Despite what the tabloids and inparticular, The Daily Nazi might say, knife and gun crime is still on the slide in Britain. Very few victims of these crimes are anywhere near as innocent as the families claim, and so put themselves in a dangerous position where one could argue they were asking for it (getting involved in Gangs and Drugs and stealing the money for example, is a very good way to commit indirect assisted suicide...)

But Tasers are hardly ever used by the Police, and I do mean hardly ever. But the option of pulling one out (which has to be reported back at the station) is a good back up, with rarely fatal consequences should the pressure prove too much.

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SoCal, USA!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Pfffrt.

We don't need Guns, because we are largely civilised over here.

Like the "Troubles"? No guns there...

But then most of the violence was terrorist bombings, so clearly, trading guns for bombs gives a superior social result?

Or is it the tacit approval of extra-legal armed paramilitary UPP-type vigilantes that are the mark of civilized Great Britain?

I'm quite confused. Perhaps you can do a better job of clarifying?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/13 22:20:38


   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Tasers are a good idea. Sure beats shouting 'Oi!' and then chasing them around an industrial estate for 5 minutes like I see every week on The Bill.

BYE

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