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Gotta get this off my chest

My favorite loyal SM chapter is the White Scars. I read all the background I can find. Please tell me I'm not the only fan who noticed the prominently featured idiotc White Scars Dreadnought? The fluff is abundantly clear that Dreadnoughts are repugnant to the White Scars ethos. Its simple, any White Scars player with a shred of self-respect knows this and forgoes the use of Drednoughts.

Perhaps next we'll get a battle report with friendlly Khorne Berzerkers? Dark Eldar volunteering to help out with Special Olympics? Romantic Ork soft-porn? Just when I thought the White Dwarf editors could not screw up the magazine anymore, they find a way to dissapoint me again.

Thanks for listening

My friend noticed this. All it was was
AOBR + the new flyers.
With the new flyer emphasizing speed(AKA white scars) and 6th edition coming along, meaning they want to get them off the shelf they just combined the two.
And im a white scars player who uses dreadnoughts regularly.

You complain about fluff and yet use the words romantic and Ork in the same sentence. For shame...

@warpcrafter...my point exactly.

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Gotta get this off my chest

My favorite loyal SM chapter is the White Scars. I read all the background I can find. Please tell me I'm not the only fan who noticed the prominently featured idiotc White Scars Dreadnought? The fluff is abundantly clear that Dreadnoughts are repugnant to the White Scars ethos. Its simple, any White Scars player with a shred of self-respect knows this and forgoes the use of Drednoughts.

Perhaps next we'll get a battle report with friendlly Khorne Berzerkers? Dark Eldar volunteering to help out with Special Olympics? Romantic Ork soft-porn? Just when I thought the White Dwarf editors could not screw up the magazine anymore, they find a way to dissapoint me again.

Thanks for listening

My local store Manager was also not happy - although there is some fluff to accompany the article that does acknowledge the White Scars issues:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

Mr Morden wrote:

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Gotta get this off my chest

My favorite loyal SM chapter is the White Scars. I read all the background I can find. Please tell me I'm not the only fan who noticed the prominently featured idiotc White Scars Dreadnought? The fluff is abundantly clear that Dreadnoughts are repugnant to the White Scars ethos. Its simple, any White Scars player with a shred of self-respect knows this and forgoes the use of Drednoughts.

Perhaps next we'll get a battle report with friendlly Khorne Berzerkers? Dark Eldar volunteering to help out with Special Olympics? Romantic Ork soft-porn? Just when I thought the White Dwarf editors could not screw up the magazine anymore, they find a way to dissapoint me again.

Thanks for listening

My local store Manager was also not happy - although there is some fluff to accompany the article that does acknowledge the White Scars issues:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

And a one sentence explaination that hangs a lampshade on the problem and lets us go on about our day. How pleasantly surprising for GW.

Makes sense. I wouldnt want to be imprisoned in a sarcophagus till i died thousands of years later. Lol

Nagashek wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Gotta get this off my chest

My favorite loyal SM chapter is the White Scars. I read all the background I can find. Please tell me I'm not the only fan who noticed the prominently featured idiotc White Scars Dreadnought? The fluff is abundantly clear that Dreadnoughts are repugnant to the White Scars ethos. Its simple, any White Scars player with a shred of self-respect knows this and forgoes the use of Drednoughts.

Perhaps next we'll get a battle report with friendlly Khorne Berzerkers? Dark Eldar volunteering to help out with Special Olympics? Romantic Ork soft-porn? Just when I thought the White Dwarf editors could not screw up the magazine anymore, they find a way to dissapoint me again.

Thanks for listening

My local store Manager was also not happy - although there is some fluff to accompany the article that does acknowledge the White Scars issues:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

And a one sentence explaination that hangs a lampshade on the problem and lets us go on about our day. How pleasantly surprising for GW.

Yet the funny thing is the white scars is still listed, as per 4th and back as having dreadnoughts interred, so there are exceptions, and they've been shown.

It's just made by the marine in question, rather than just forcing them into it.

This is actually not the first time a White Dwarf magazine has showcased a White scars army fielding a Dreadnought. If I recall correctly, a long time ago they showed a picture of a white scars army with two dreadnoughts.
However that happened before the white scars got their fluff fully established.

I think in one of the comics there was also a white scar dreadnought. Blood and Thunder I think?

It was just so they could shoehorn in a thinly veiled reference to painting up an AOBR set as White Scars colours. The whole fiction piece in WD was a poor attempt at plugging the new flyers.

If you want to see what most players think of fluff, just go to the 40k Army list section of the forum. Every list is built for winning above all else. Army fluff and having fun be damned! 40K players will run the most repetitive boring army builds imaginable, then label it as "competitive".

Redcruisair wrote:This is actually not the first time a White Dwarf magazine has showcased a White scars army fielding a Dreadnought. If I recall correctly, a long time ago they showed a picture of a white scars army with two dreadnoughts.
However that happened before the white scars got their fluff fully established.

In the first WD battle report with Paul Sawyer's White Scars they did have two dreadnoughts. The temp army list even mentions that dreads don't fit the theme of the WS, but they don't want to deny us the cool models. The first prohibition on dreads happened with the IA some time later. With the 5 ed. codex we went from a divergent chapter to a codex chapter. First we don't have devastators now we do. We get LR Crusaders, then we lose them in 4th, and then remember where we parked them in 5th. So WS Dreads really don't bother me. Since GW wants us to be white Ultramarines with a bike fetish, I figure we will get them sometime in the future as standard codex kit.

beezley1981 wrote:If you want to see what most players think of fluff, just go to the 40k Army list section of the forum. Every list is built for winning above all else. Army fluff and having fun be damned! 40K players will run the most repetitive boring army builds imaginable, then label it as "competitive".

That's because competitive lists require feedback, fluff-orientated lists do not.
Competitive lists are much more common in that forum because people want feedback to make a list better. People rarely want feedback to make a fluffy list more fluffy or a fluffy list more competitive.

Just Dave wrote:

beezley1981 wrote:If you want to see what most players think of fluff, just go to the 40k Army list section of the forum. Every list is built for winning above all else. Army fluff and having fun be damned! 40K players will run the most repetitive boring army builds imaginable, then label it as "competitive".

That's because competitive lists require feedback, fluff-orientated lists do not.
Competitive lists are much more common in that forum because people want feedback to make a list better. People rarely want feedback to make a fluffy list more fluffy or a fluffy list more competitive.

Yes, but it is still true that if you post a list including units that aren't considered to be the "best units" of the moment, even if you really know how to use those units well and they have never let you down, you will still get the feedback to change your list completely to the usual competitve build. Taking eldar as an example, it's almost always mechdar with MSU of DA and fire dragons. Let's not forget scatter laser war walkers now.

OT: Another fluff disappointment. Shame, seeing as getting enough models for a game is getting more expensive, you could have hoped that at least the fluff would remain good and correct.

Im not too fussed by fluuf, an if i did have a white scars army i would include drednoughts, as i find them very useful.Sometimes youve just got to go with the flow.

Looks like someone just took the black reach set and painted it as white scars.

I have to admit, I really don't mind the Dreadnought. That might be because I do have the Paul Sawyer White Scars issue with his lovely dreadnoughts, and I'm just nostalgic.

On the other hand, I think it's really ok, and even appropriate, to portray the White Scars as having a different attitude towards Dreadnoughts. While a lot of Chapters might view it as a duty (to stay alive and advise the Chapter) or even an honor (say, the Iron Hands), the White Scars could see it as a confinement and a burden, but still be willing to do it. While the White Scars might wish to let the spirit of their fallen warriors go free, they are supposed to be a very honor-driven, oath-bound chapter (referencing their quests to bring down particular foes and mount their heads on pikes leading to their Chapter fortress).

I could definitely see a White Scar, laid low by something like treachery or even misfortune, being willing to be entombed in a Dreadnought in order to satisfy his honor by smiting a foe. In particular, it would make sense when the enemy dishonored him personally, but did not do something that brought shame down on the entire Chapter (so it's not appropriate to just die and let his brother marines avenge him).

That way, rather than letting the dreadnought slumber until needed in battle, the marines might let the dreadnought slumber until word of the foe is had, and then awaken the dreadnought to seek vengeance. They could even view it as appropriate to allow him to die after his honor is satisified, and then keep the dreadnought sarcophagus for the next aggrieved Marine.

Just like Space Wolves have different attitudes about Bikes and Jump Packs, but still use them as a Chapter, I could easily see White Scars being very opposed to the idea of a Dreadnought, but still see a use for them in extremis.

GW done fethed up with the fluff. They certainly don't take as much care/respect with their IP as they used to.

The battle lore also talks of a WS Dreadnought popping up the back of a Thunderhawk and blowing up a pursuing Necron Overlord in a Command Barge with a multi-melta. That part was actually funny though.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Yes, but it is still true that if you post a list including units that aren't considered to be the "best units" of the moment, even if you really know how to use those units well and they have never let you down, you will still get the feedback to change your list completely to the usual competitve build. Taking eldar as an example, it's almost always mechdar with MSU of DA and fire dragons. Let's not forget scatter laser war walkers now.

Imo, its your fault for expecting people on the Army list forum to agree with uncommon/uncompetitive builds. That forum is to critique lists and to most people, myself included, critiquing means making it more familiar on the competitive scene. Personal Anecdotes only go so far


Back on the topic of White Scar dreads

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

beezley1981 wrote:If you want to see what most players think of fluff, just go to the 40k Army list section of the forum. Every list is built for winning above all else. Army fluff and having fun be damned! 40K players will run the most repetitive boring army builds imaginable, then label it as "competitive".

That's because competitive lists require feedback, fluff-orientated lists do not.
Competitive lists are much more common in that forum because people want feedback to make a list better. People rarely want feedback to make a fluffy list more fluffy or a fluffy list more competitive.

Yes, but it is still true that if you post a list including units that aren't considered to be the "best units" of the moment, even if you really know how to use those units well and they have never let you down, you will still get the feedback to change your list completely to the usual competitve build. Taking eldar as an example, it's almost always mechdar with MSU of DA and fire dragons. Let's not forget scatter laser war walkers now.

Getting off topic, but this is a direct result of the 'double-blind' method of list writing. If you can't know what enemy you'll be facing, you are forced to take the generic 'best' units to remain competitive.

Allowing people to tailor their lists removes this artificial obstructions and gives many of the 'crap' units a new lease on life. Even Swooping Hawks have a use! It's important to create a distinction here that players should tailor lists to their opponents codex, not their army roster. You simply say to your buddy "Hey, how about a game next wednesday? Your IG vs my Orks?" and then you both go away and build the best anti-IG and anti-Ork lists you can.

Mr Morden wrote:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

Doesn't make sense. Dreads don't hunt down people, they're too valuable to use like that. They're kind of hard to sneak up on people with too and who's going to maintain his systems while he's "hunting"? He'd need special transport, a techpriest at least and other support people. All these people and resources so that one cowardly person can be tracked down and killed?
This is so insanely stupid you just know the writer gave zero thought to this.

There are a few points to consider:

1. The ONLY entity that can claim control of "fluff" is Games Workshop;
2. GW is known for rewriting history as they see fit;
3. The Inquisition is known for deleting or redacting material at a whim;
4. GW is in fact the Inquisition.

This leads us to the conclusion that the White Scars not only have dreadnoughts but have had them the entire time.

If you feel this is in error, please report to your local Inquisitor for reeducation or internment.

beezley1981 wrote:If you want to see what most players think of fluff, just go to the 40k Army list section of the forum. Every list is built for winning above all else. Army fluff and having fun be damned! 40K players will run the most repetitive boring army builds imaginable, then label it as "competitive".

I'd post my list and pics with it, if it didn't give away the trilogy I'm trying to publish with the BL. Not everyone always plays exclusively to dominate another player. Winning is nice, but telling a decent story and having an epic Grimdark battle is far more gratifying.

cadbren wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

Doesn't make sense. Dreads don't hunt down people, they're too valuable to use like that. They're kind of hard to sneak up on people with too and who's going to maintain his systems while he's "hunting"? He'd need special transport, a techpriest at least and other support people. All these people and resources so that one cowardly person can be tracked down and killed?
This is so insanely stupid you just know the writer gave zero thought to this.

Chaos forces on Vervunhive(?) had no problem using a dreadnought as an assassin.

clively wrote:There are a few points to consider:

1. The ONLY entity that can claim control of "fluff" is Games Workshop;
2. GW is known for rewriting history as they see fit;
3. The Inquisition is known for deleting or redacting material at a whim;
4. GW is in fact the Inquisition.

This leads us to the conclusion that the White Scars not only have dreadnoughts but have had them the entire time.

If you feel this is in error, please report to your local Inquisitor for reeducation or internment.

You, sir, made me laugh and cry at the same time.

IIRC, there was a story behind a WS Dreadnaught.

He had been stabbed in the back by a Chaos Marine, I think while fighting a Chaos Lord. He asked to be "dreaded" so that he could hunt down the one who ruined his body.

Kaldor wrote:
Getting off topic, but this is a direct result of the 'double-blind' method of list writing. If you can't know what enemy you'll be facing, you are forced to take the generic 'best' units to remain competitive.

Allowing people to tailor their lists removes this artificial obstructions and gives many of the 'crap' units a new lease on life. Even Swooping Hawks have a use! It's important to create a distinction here that players should tailor lists to their opponents codex, not their army roster. You simply say to your buddy "Hey, how about a game next wednesday? Your IG vs my Orks?" and then you both go away and build the best anti-IG and anti-Ork lists you can.

This is how my army plays, and it is great! I get to field many units that I wouldn't be able to otherwise since an "all comers" list wouldn't have room for them. Hawks included!

Additionally, not liking something certainly doesn't mean you won't use it. Dreadnoughts are powerful weapons even if they don't want to use them, and when push comes to shove a Dreadnought could win you the situation. Having a Battle Brother with a grudge that pushes him into a Dreadnought is a win win for everyone. He gets to avenge himself eventually, and the Chapter gets to have a Dreadnought.

An interesting clip I found today. Andy Hoare talks about White Scar Dreads 6:15 minutes in:

cadbren wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

"Whilst many White Scars find the prospect of being confined within the metal sarcophagus a horror, believing their soul should be allowed to roam free, Temajin has vowed to hunt down and enact revenge against the coward who shot him"

Its the usual 40k thing - the exception that proves the rule

Doesn't make sense. Dreads don't hunt down people, they're too valuable to use like that. They're kind of hard to sneak up on people with too and who's going to maintain his systems while he's "hunting"? He'd need special transport, a techpriest at least and other support people. All these people and resources so that one cowardly person can be tracked down and killed?
This is so insanely stupid you just know the writer gave zero thought to this.

Wow. "Insanely stupid" seems a bit hyperbolic.

I don't think 'hunt down' here means 'sneak up on and shoot'. I think the Dreadnought is probably part of a battle force which is pursuing an enemy force which contains the coward who shot him. I don't see any evidence that Temajin tromps off alone into the woods to do it, either. I don't think he's wearing a hunting cap and creeping around like Elmer Fudd.

I also don't see where you get that because Temajin has vowed to hunt down this coward, that's ALL he and his support staff (and presumably, brother marines) are doing. If someone vows to hunt down Ghazgkhul, he's probably not going off on his own with a medic and a driver, and ignoring all the other orks he meets. He's probably prosecuting some sort of a crusade with an end goal of killing Ghazghkul, but a crusade that would also result in a lot of ork deaths. A crusade that other allies could support, even if they, personally, didn't have a vendetta against one particular enemy in that opposition. Temajin may hate the coward who laid him low, but I don't see any evidence that the dreadnought won't fight anyone else but that guy.

Assuming that the dreadnought isn't 'hunting wabbits', but actually waging an effective campaign against this enemy's forces, how is this a waste? I mean, theoretically, every Dreadnought should just be training other space marines until they've learned all his tricks and tactics, rather than loafing around in suspended animation between battles, but still.

You can accept that they entomb grievously wounded heroes and revive them in times of need against the foe, but they would never do this to some wounded hero who WANTED to survive and face off against a particular enemy?