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Janthkin wrote:GW keeps ratcheting up the costs on Guard heavy/special weapons (lascannons & plasma guns), because they feel there are too many of them. But they don't give us any other way to play the list,

Malfred: the only "mass fire" rule that comes immediately to mind

GW ratched up the costs on heavy & special because at the time (3rd Edition), the game revolved around shooting pretty much to the exclusion of anything else. They didn't have to give you another way to play, because there wasn't any other way until 4th Edition, when suddenly the concept of Objectives became important. 5th Edition will have a very different focus (i.e. TROOPS and OBJECTIVES!), so the costs will be redone signficantly. That said, the current IG Heavy and Special costs are OK for BS3. There is no basis for increasing these costs. But the basic Trooper should drop to the equivalent of 4 pts each, and the basic Chimera should be around 50 pts.

The current "mass fire" rule is Torrent. Having to count to 20 for each target would slow the game and be less effective than Torrent. Though, I would say that it would be good for Torrent to also require a Pinning test.

jfrazell wrote:Lasgun A2 R24" Str 3 Ap-

It's unbalancing, because you're raising the bar at the bottom, so naturally, everything else that was better, should be a little better or cheaper. So I would expect more Codex Creep.

Janthkin wrote:Something to keep in mind: EVERYTHING you're comparing the Guardsman with is better in HtH than he is.

If the IG are meant to be a shooty army, then they need to have the tools to be so. Unless GW really, really wants a pure, static gunline (boring for everyone concerned), some "fix" to allow for mobile firepower is pretty much required.

I fully anticipate a 1 pt drop in the Guardsman, and a 5 pt bump to both lascannons & plasma guns; net effect, zero change.

Pretty much everything *should* be better than a basic Guardsman in HtH. And shooting. That's why the Guardsman represents the baseline for the entire 40k universe.

IG are currently stuck as a shooty army, because that is how they were designed in 3rd Edition. The should be rebuilt to allow for mobilty as an alternative, resulting in modern bounding fire teams supported static fire teams.

I'm a bit more sanguine about the likely IG changes. I anticipate a 2-pt drop and no las/plas bump, for a net cost decrease, along with reduced Chimera costs. This would allow Guard to basically mechanize for "free".

Janthkin wrote:They need a design theme - either they are supposed to be a boring, purely-static gunline (which makes cheaper grunts marginally better, though I still think net-change will approach zero), OR they need enough effective mobile elements to make a game of it.

As above, I think the IG need both static gunline *and* effective mobile elements (which are currently lacking).

Wehrkind wrote:I wonder if a nice addition might be prepared positions.

That would be like the Wood Elves getting a "free" Wood in their games. IMO, it's a bad thing because it further encourages the IG into static play, along with encouraging dodgy terrain tactics.

MinMax wrote:If models wielding Lasguns always counted as stationary for the purposes of firing, and Guardsmen were 5 pts/model, we'd have a pretty good start.

Guardsmen are basic, so USRs like S&P would be very bad. Though I could see Ad Mech getting this for their guys...

Balance wrote:To be honest I still feel that IG should be the 'zero point' for 40k, as opposed to the Space Marines.

Totally agreed. More 40k should be Guard-centric, and hopefully, 5th Edition is what makes that happen.

Either Guard or Tau will be next on my list of armies to make. The Guard army I could make would be a Grenadiers/Storm Troopers army, so I'd likely wait till any new codex did come out first, but I would indeed like to see one.

GW ratched up the costs on heavy & special because at the time (3rd Edition), the game revolved around shooting pretty much to the exclusion of anything else. They didn't have to give you another way to play, because there wasn't any other way until 4th Edition, when suddenly the concept of Objectives became important. 5th Edition will have a very different focus (i.e. TROOPS and OBJECTIVES!), so the costs will be redone signficantly. That said, the current IG Heavy and Special costs are OK for BS3. There is no basis for increasing these costs. But the basic Trooper should drop to the equivalent of 4 pts each, and the basic Chimera should be around 50 pts.

The price bump on plasma has been pretty universal. Tie in the reduction in heavy weapons we've seen in the CSM and new SM-variant 'dexes (e.g., 10-man squads required for a heavy weapon, fewer heavies in Terminator squads), and a design shift AWAY from massed heavy weaponry is fairly apparent. Add in the rumored "running" rules, and it looks like you'll have less time to put heavy weapons to use. And if marines can assault out of moving rhinos again....

I'm not as sanguine as you, I guess.

That would be like the Wood Elves getting a "free" Wood in their games. IMO, it's a bad thing because it further encourages the IG into static play, along with encouraging dodgy terrain tactics.

Don't think WE; think Bretonians (and the spikey-things their archers can buy to hide behind). Kind of an interesting idea, but impractical - any sort of Reserves rules would make them useless (or illogical - hard to dig in, when you've not reached the battlefield yet!), which means they won't show up in competitive lists.

Janthkin wrote:The price bump on plasma has been pretty universal.

a design shift AWAY from massed heavy weaponry is fairly apparent.

I'm not as sanguine as you, I guess.

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

Agree. I expect Heavy Weapons Platoons will disappear entirely, with Heavy Weapons squads being attached to Troops. I think this change would be quite positive for the IG, though, with more, larger, and more powerful Troops choices.

I gotta have hope. GW has been selling a ton of IG starting with Apocalypse, so you have to imagine they'll want to convert all of that into 40k play.

Don't think WE; think Bretonians (and the spikey-things their archers can buy to hide behind). Kind of an interesting idea, but impractical - any sort of Reserves rules would make them useless (or illogical - hard to dig in, when you've not reached the battlefield yet!), which means they won't show up in competitive lists.

Either way, probably not a good add for the army, but a great thing for a scenario or mission.

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

For 5th Edition Marines, I think you're mistaken.

Spiky Marines
- Chosen pay 15 pts for a HB
- Regular CSM 10 pts for a HB - if they number 10 or more.
- Havocs pay 15 pts for a HB,

Red Marines
- Tacs pay 10 pts for a HB
- Devs pay 15 pts for a HB.

Perhaps you are using outdated points costs to make your point?

Well considering that even the current Codex Space Marines came out after the current Codex Imperial Guard, I'd say he has some kind of point. A point that's been belabored for the last four years, but a point nonetheless.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

For 5th Edition Marines, I think you're mistaken.

Spiky Marines
- Chosen pay 15 pts for a HB
- Regular CSM 10 pts for a HB - if they number 10 or more.
- Havocs pay 15 pts for a HB,

Red Marines
- Tacs pay 10 pts for a HB
- Devs pay 15 pts for a HB.

Perhaps you are using outdated points costs to make your point?

Unless, I've missed something, C: SM is still valid, and still includes 5 pt heavy bolters. Moreover, it's still newer than the IG codex, even if it is about to be replaced.

Moreover, there is an obvious historical disconnect between option-pricing across different 'dexes. I disagree that we have anything like enough data to show a change in design philosophy on this matter, and I *can* see them charging 15 pts/plasma gun (and chalking it up to "they're supposed to be rare for the IG" as an explanation...just as they did when they bumped lascannons to 25 and plasma to 10, in the current IG codex).

And thats a nice argument for guard. Have certain weapons being heavily priced. Have other weapons (flamers, grenade launchers, heavy bolters and above all missile launchers) as absolutely dirt cheap in line with their fluff. Plus it separates them. Lascannons are a relative rarity, but TOWmen guys are a dime a dozen.

Janthkin wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

For 5th Edition Marines, I think you're mistaken.

Spiky Marines
- Chosen pay 15 pts for a HB
- Regular CSM 10 pts for a HB - if they number 10 or more.
- Havocs pay 15 pts for a HB,

Red Marines
- Tacs pay 10 pts for a HB
- Devs pay 15 pts for a HB.

Perhaps you are using outdated points costs to make your point?

Unless, I've missed something, C: SM is still valid, and still includes 5 pt heavy bolters. Moreover, it's still newer than the IG codex, even if it is about to be replaced.

Moreover, there is an obvious historical disconnect between option-pricing across different 'dexes. I disagree that we have anything like enough data to show a change in design philosophy on this matter, and I *can* see them charging 15 pts/plasma gun (and chalking it up to "they're supposed to be rare for the IG" as an explanation...just as they did when they bumped lascannons to 25 and plasma to 10, in the current IG codex).

No, for the purposes of this discussion and argment, C: SM v.4 is NOT a valid basis for argument, because it's successor has been announced and will almost certainly NOT include 5-pt HBs. At this point, it is an obsolete book, and cannot be reasonably used to back-justify other points costs or structures.

And while there is some variance in option pricing, the trend for the v5 Codices is pretty clear: MEQs will pay at least 10 pts for a HB in a 10-man squad, 15 pts if in a 5-man squad.

Finally, the "rare" bit has been gone over by the studio several times: "rare" means "not every Guardsman can have one".

No, for the purposes of this discussion and argment, C: SM v.4 is NOT a valid basis for argument, because it's successor has been announced and will almost certainly NOT include 5-pt HBs. At this point, it is an obsolete book, and cannot be reasonably used to back-justify other points costs or structures.

Whether you like it or not, the v4 C: SM did, in fact, come after the 3.5 IG 'dex. And it did include 5 pt Heavy Bolters in Tac squads (where the IG paid 10 pts/per). All of this is fact.

Now, what you're suggesting (and attempting to limit discussion to - naughty!) is that GW has learned their lesson, and adopted a new pricing philosophy. And, further, that this pricing philosophy will not allow them to charge as much/more for a BS3 weapon (carried by an IG grunt), as they would for the weapon in a SM's hands.

I offered several historical examples of why I don't trust any such perception. (I'll add one more: even the *current* price of a CSM- or BA-carried HB is just equal to what the IG pay for it.)

My position, as clearly as I can state it, is this:

I firmly believe GW will attempt to limit Guard firepower through inflated pricing of the more desirable options (i.e., anything that's AP 2). I accept this as being a more desirable approach than instituting Codex-enforced limitations (e.g., no line squad can take a lascannon), though there are better approaches to addressing this "need," if it must be addressed at all. I fully expect any new Guard 'dex to price every heavy weapon (except Mortars) at the same cost as they charge SM's, or more.

I think given the fairly dramatic shift in codex design, relying on anything before Codex: Eldar is a bit dodgy for any sort of precedent. While GW has seemingly dropped the idea of seperate wargear costs for IC/Sgts, it appears that is based on the fact that 5th edition makes ICs and power weapons a bit better in general.

If you look at the Eldar codex, however, you see prices that keep in mind the inherent qualities of the unit. autarchs only pay 10pts for a power weapon, Scorp exarchs don't have 25pt fists, and Guardians and Warwalkers pay less for heavy weapons then the wraithlord. That all said, the Eldar codex is the first of the new style, and they might try to homogenize wargear costs across later codices.

Orks doesn't really offer a lot to base anything off of, although GW did price Stormboys aggresivly (keeping in mind that they have a 6+ save), and in general pay very little for any heavy weapons.

I share Janthkin's fear that GW will associate "ability to tons of guns" with "we should charge them a lot for guns." To a certain extent that's true: 8 lascannons is more then twice as good as 4 lascannons, for example. Unfortunatly, the current IG trooper is a little overcosted to take this ability into account. The fact that a current SM 6 man las/plas is only 20 pts more than a 10 man IG squad is outrageous. IG have long needed at least a minor cost drop, and I think it's been shown convincingly that SM need a price hike.

On the other hand, GW has taken steps to elminate the SAFH nature of DA and Chaos. This leads to one of two possible conclusions: GW wants to eliminate all shooty armies, particular heavy weapon dependent, long range static shooting; or GW wants to establish IG as being THE long range static shooty army. Right now, I can build a SM with a ton of heavy weapons that are more accurate and more durable than IG weapons, and while I'll be outgunned on turn 1 and 2 compared to IG, the SM guns hang around longer.

Given that Orks got a price drop instead of getting better (I'd rather have choppas then Furious Charge), I don't think GW is going to pooch the IG. DA are the only codex since Eldar to not be competitive, and it has it's supporters.

Finally, while current las/plas IG squad don't need a price hike (they could certainly stand a slight drop), plasma is currently a no brainer, and a reshuffling of points values wouldn't be totally out of line.

What I would like to see, in a perfect world, would be to keep the idea of IG squads being cheap, but not as cheap as you'd think, with access to tons of specials and heavies. For example:
50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt plasma pistols
10pt heavy bolter and mortar (make it heavy 2)
15pt ML and autocannon
25pt Lascannon (has to be kept high to prevent it from totally overshadowing the ML)
6pt flamer
10pt melta and grenade launcher (make it assault 2)
15pt plasma

This lowers the cost of las/plas to 90pts which will still be a good deal. However, it allows for 66pt heavy bolter/flamer squads and 60pt melta guns.

Assault 2 grenade launchers and uppriced plasma guns can lead to legitimate decisions, unlike todays "throw more plasma in" philosophy.

Finally, while current las/plas IG squad don't need a price hike (they could certainly stand a slight drop), plasma is currently a no brainer, and a reshuffling of points values wouldn't be totally out of line.

What I would like to see, in a perfect world, would be to keep the idea of IG squads being cheap, but not as cheap as you'd think, with access to tons of specials and heavies. For example:
50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt plasma pistols
10pt heavy bolter and mortar (make it heavy 2)
15pt ML and autocannon
25pt Lascannon (has to be kept high to prevent it from totally overshadowing the ML)
6pt flamer
10pt melta and grenade launcher (make it assault 2)
15pt plasma

This lowers the cost of las/plas to 90pts which will still be a good deal. However, it allows for 66pt heavy bolter/flamer squads and 60pt melta guns.

Assault 2 grenade launchers and uppriced plasma guns can lead to legitimate decisions, unlike todays "throw more plasma in" philosophy.

Then we'll just buy 90 pt las/plas squads. No change in status quo.

They tried the "but these other options are cheaper!" route before with the 3.5 dex. And it didn't take root, because for the metagame as it is, las/plas is simply the best possible choice.

If I'm only going to hit once per two shots, those shots have to be as effective as I can make them, which means plasma & lascannons. Anti-infantry weapons I can get on tanks in a more cost-effective manner than in troops squads (Multilaser + Heavy Bolter for 85 pts).

It's not until you get to SERIOUS economy of scale that this calculation changes - I have in mind Ed Maule's 18+ missile launcher Guard army.


If GW wants to actually change the Guard metagame, one or more things needs to occur:

1) Release fewer MEQs and 2+ save nasties. So long as these are the predominant threat, taking any weapon other than a lascannon or plasma gun is suboptimal. The only place las/plas is less effective is in facing horde orks or horde 'gaunts.

2) Introduce Guard mobility. We've talked about this to some degree above. I'd add in another option, though: a 3 special weapon squad option, even if limited to a few types of special weapons, might actually be useful...IF the weapons they've got access to are useful. Foot-slogging flamers & melta guns really aren't, and the current grenade launcher isn't, either. (One of my favorite 3rd ed counter-assault options was the CHQ w/3 flamers in a Chimera; if you score 24 hits on marines, you'll actually kill some of them.)

3) Take AP 2 weapons away from the Guard (or from Guard infantry squads). Lousy option, as it leaves players even fewer reasons to buy the many, many models needed to field a Guard army. Army design will shift to maximize whatever AP 2 firepower remains (3 Demolishers with las/plas; max command squads w/plasma or melta; whatever), and minimum numbers of IG line squads will be used to "unlock" as much useful firepower as is available.

4) Provide a new anti-2+ save HtH nasty solution. Give me a tool in the toolbox that I can use in place of all that plasma to deal with Terminators, Death Company, or monstrous creatures. And it can't cost more than taking the plasma would. Make Ogryn immune to instant death and give the Bone 'ead a powerfist, all for 25 pts/model; give Rough Riders a permanent Power Lance; let me hide a couple Commissars in squads without IC status - something along those lines.

Amen (to honest i was a big fan of ML and AC mix if i wasn't running Storm trooper guard)

Janthkin: I think you're forgetting two factors:

1) With the rise of orks, the continued popularity of Eldar, and the Tau, there are quite a few non- 2+ dependent armies. Chaos lost 2+ save monsters, and the current trend in marine armies is to move away from the 2 AC termie squad (one of the few that's top notch). With a good IG army, it's possible that 40% or even more of armies might be non-MEQ (I dream of course).

2) The impact of 5th edition screening might make rows and rows of las/plas squads obsolete. No matter how many guns you have, if you can't shooot them, they're no good. I think the new codex will have that in mind, and we don't know the impact for now. Additionally, the return of usable transports and a decent GL might bring back the vaunted GL/AC combo for anti-rhino work. If the GL had two shots and the whole thing was only 75pts, that's better then a 95pt las/plas against AV11....

I like your suggestions, but I think it's a little odd to say that the best way to imporve IG is to eliminate MEQ armies.

What I do like is your observation that IG need plasma, because there is no way to deal with high toughness or 2+ enemies in HtH. Outside of RRs (and they're really not that great against nids), there is nothing in the IG codex that can handle them. Ogryn fists would be dreamy, as would affordable Commissars or priests with hidden fists. If I could add a 2 attack fist on a priest to an IG squad for 40pts, I would (that's not that much cheaper than a SM with fist), and I'd add commissars to storm troopers, and even JOs with fists if they ever got a chance to swing.

Guard don't have to be awful at HtH any more than Orks need to be awful at shooting: it's not their forte, but it should be at least some form of option.

As to your #1: I look forward to seeing how Orks shape the metagame; they have several options which AP2 weaponry is still good for, and several builds where more shots would be crucial. But there are few enough Ork players out there, particularly as compared to the combined SM/CSM/Necron collection.

Eldar have a fair number of MEQ-like options themselves; the rest of their stuff isn't worth crippling your AP2 firepower to deal with (though I often include a token AC or two).

For Tau, you want your las/plas to shoot down their tanks and make their (T4 3+ save) suits hide, and to dump fire into broadsides.

I wish you joy of your dreams. It's important to dream....

2) We'll see how the screening rules shape up. Staggered formations and column deployments offer options for exposing your heavy weapons. If the rhino rush has truly returned, the solution is probably STILL the Chimera.



It's not necessary to eliminate Marines; it's necessary for GW to introduce some variety in stat lines. If everything I face is a tin can, they really shouldn't be surprised and dismayed when I select can openers from the army list, and don't take more corkscrews.

(Do keep in mind that my comments, and thought process, are focused on the tournament/competitive "take all comers" environment. It's where I play, and what I plan for; you can always customize your list for a particular opponent, but that's not really a good thing, IMHO.)

Personally what I'd like to see is 4-5pt Guardsmen with an across the board reduction in heavy weapons costs.

Currently, to get an IG heavy weapons team (two guys with a HW) on par with a single heavy weapon marine, they'd need to be 33% cheaper. When comapared with a Chaos marine its almost 50% cheaper if you include CC ability if charged.

Cheaper Stormtroopers would also be required, as right now they are only worth about 7pts for what they do. BS4 4+sv guardsmen just aren't worth 10pts, just as normal guardsmen aren't worth 6. Alternatively they could be buffed to be actually worth 10pts (in which case they'd need a weapon roughly equivalent to a Storm Bolter or DA Catapult). It would also be nice to have these guys as Troops, as they were available as such in 2nd Ed, the 3rd Ed black book list, and in the current list.

A Chimera with side AV 11 and costs no more than 65pts with HB/ML is desperately needed.

Most Imperial Guard vehicles could also use a reduction in cost, especially in relation to other armies units. When you compare a Fire Prism to a Leman Russ for example, they are more survivable (HF/SS) better anti-tank, roughly equal anti-MEQ (BS4 small blast vs Scatter large blast), Better anti-MC and Anti-Terminator, roughly equal anti-infantry, and the Fire Prism is faster and needn't worry about immobilzation on terrain.

Ogryns desperately need a boost, either a greater ability to damage through armor saves, or greater Toughness.

I'd like to see most of the current doctrines remain, and it wouldn't be hard to simply work them into the existing units as simple options.

Sentinels also need a points decrease, compared to every other armies Squadron vehicles they are horrifically overcosted and underperforming.

Advisors need to change, costs need to be brought down and utility increased. As is, the Priest has *NO* place in a guard army outside of Ogryns (which you'd have to take a lot of them to get to the Ogryns), the Psyker just doesn't do much, and the Commissar is primarily a hidden powerfist. The Advisors rule needs to change and such units need to provide greater value.

I voted yes But for no other reason than it would be something new to read. Dont really care if the army was crap before or becomes crapper still.

Polonius wrote:50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt plasma pistols
10pt heavy bolter and mortar (make it heavy 2)
15pt ML and autocannon
25pt Lascannon (has to be kept high to prevent it from totally overshadowing the ML)
6pt flamer
10pt melta and grenade launcher (make it assault 2)
15pt plasma

You think a Vet Guard Sergeant is worth 11 points?

You think the ML will ever be taken if its the same cost as the AC? It has to be 10 points, or be some sort of Guided Weapon that never hits on worse than a 3+.

You think a Grenade Launcher is worth 10? Even with 2 shots? In its current form it's worth 4-5 points.

You think 15 point Plasma is worth it on guys with BS3 and a 5+ save?

But as Janthkin said, nothing changes. We just pay more for the Las/Plas squads than we did with the last Codex, just the same as our Las/Plas squads went up with the 3.5. We take one less squad per army and life goes on without any (real) change.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt plasma pistols
10pt heavy bolter and mortar (make it heavy 2)
15pt ML and autocannon
25pt Lascannon (has to be kept high to prevent it from totally overshadowing the ML)
6pt flamer
10pt melta and grenade launcher (make it assault 2)
15pt plasma

You think a Vet Guard Sergeant is worth 11 points?

You think the ML will ever be taken if its the same cost as the AC? It has to be 10 points, or be some sort of Guided Weapon that never hits on worse than a 3+.

You think a Grenade Launcher is worth 10? Even with 2 shots? In its current form it's worth 4-5 points.

You think 15 point Plasma is worth it on guys with BS3 and a 5+ save?

But as Janthkin said, nothing changes. We just pay more for the Las/Plas squads than we did with the last Codex, just the same as our Las/Plas squads went up with the 3.5. We take one less squad per army and life goes on without any (real) change.

BYE

I was talking points off the top of my head, my point is that I think IG should be able to take two kinds of squads: las/plas squads, and anything freaking else. No matter how it has to happen.

I do think that a 2 shot GL would be worth some points. It addresses one of the big holes in the list (lack of mobile firepower) without being overpowered. You can price it at 6 if you want.

I don't think the ML will ever get taken, period. The rule of three applies: any time there are more then three options, those in excess of three will become essentially useless. Mortars and MLs fill no real need for IG right now. They only reason they are used is because people either have old metal models (hey that's me!) and because you can easily build them out of the plastic kits. I like making them twin-linked, but it involves the old "why does the IG have better stuff then Marines?" problem. I'd love them to ignore LOS, or shoot through screening, or any rule to make them viable, but that's not going to happen. Dropping them to 10pts will help, I suppose.

Asking if a model or upgrade is worth it is only useful in the context of the overall unit. Is a 90pt las/plas squad worth it? In the new, combat squad world of 5th edition? Probably. If that's the high end of what las/plas is worth, won't the other options have to be way cheaper? And how cheap would a vet have to be to be useful? Making them standard in squads seems a little odd, but certainly doable. Maybe give Vet Sarges some sort of bonus rule, like a targeter or something.

I'm not sure what people want. They seem to want change, but afraid of any. What would you like the base IG squad to look like?

Asking if a model or upgrade is worth it is only useful in the context of the overall unit. Is a 90pt las/plas squad worth it? In the new, combat squad world of 5th edition? Probably. If that's the high end of what las/plas is worth, won't the other options have to be way cheaper?

See, this is game design theory. Of a sort that GW doesn't seem to practice very often.

Polonius wrote:Unfortunatly, the current IG trooper is a little overcosted to take this ability into account. The fact that a current SM 6 man las/plas is only 20 pts more than a 10 man IG squad is outrageous. IG have long needed at least a minor cost drop, and I think it's been shown convincingly that SM need a price hike.

The 6-pt IG Trooper is overcosted by more than a point, closer to 2 points too much, while the SM is undercosted by a point or two. Also, you should compare 5 SM vs 10 IG. Points-wise, 10 SM with Las / Plas & Rhino will be around 250 pts. So 20 IG with 2 Las / Plas & 2 Chimeras coming in under 250 points isn't too unreasonable.

This leads to one of two possible conclusions: GW wants to eliminate all shooty armies, particular heavy weapon dependent, long range static shooting; or GW wants to establish IG as being THE long range static shooty army.

I'm going to vote for *both*. 5th Edition is going to nullify static shooting as a strategy. But GW will *also* establish IG as the *only* army that can do long-range static shooting.

DA are the only codex since Eldar to not be competitive, and it has it's supporters.

That is within a 4th Edition context. Within a 5th Edition context, DA are going to be fine.

50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt plasma pistols
10pt heavy bolter and mortar (make it heavy 2)
15pt ML and autocannon
25pt Lascannon (has to be kept high to prevent it from totally overshadowing the ML)
6pt flamer
10pt melta and grenade launcher (make it assault 2)
15pt plasma

This isn't too bad for a first cut, but...

45-pt squad w/ 5-pt VS. All IG stuff should cost on 5s to keep math simple.
5-pt Mortar w/ Starshells for Night Fighting.
10-pt ML
5-pt Flamer & GL
10-pt Plasma

Janthkin wrote:Then we'll just buy 90 pt las/plas squads. No change in status quo.

With more Orks and cheaper IG, Frag becomes more useful. ML/Plas for 65 pts vs Las/Plas for 80 pts adds up.

Polonius wrote:What I do like is your observation that IG need plasma, because there is no way to deal with high toughness or 2+ enemies in HtH.

Guard don't have to be awful at HtH any more than Orks need to be awful at shooting: it's not their forte, but it should be at least some form of option.

Ogryns need to be better to provide the HtH that they're supposed to. Or give IG Beastmen. And fighting Robots.

Janthkin wrote:It's not necessary to eliminate Marines; it's necessary for GW to introduce some variety in stat lines. If everything I face is a tin can, they really shouldn't be surprised and dismayed when I select can openers from the army list, and don't take more corkscrews.

And that is why I like MLs to be cheaper. S8 AP3 is just as good as S9 AP2 against T4 Sv3+, so the cheaper cost is advantageous. With Tanks getting worse, you won't need as many Lascannons for AV14 work.

Vaktathi wrote:Personally what I'd like to see is 4-5pt Guardsmen with an across the board reduction in heavy weapons costs.

Cheaper Stormtroopers would also be required, as right now they are only worth about 7pts for what they do.

A Chimera with side AV 11 and costs no more than 65pts with HB/ML is desperately needed.

Most Imperial Guard vehicles could also use a reduction in cost, especially in relation to other armies units.

Ogryns desperately need a boost, either a greater ability to damage through armor saves, or greater Toughness.

Sentinels also need a points decrease,

Advisors need to change, costs need to be brought down and utility increased.

Amusingly, I generally agree with pretty much everything you say here.

I'd like 4.5 pt Guardsmen with integral Vox (IG Rites of Battle FTW), but hold or cut Heavy & Special weapons costs

Storms should have Deep Strike and Infiltrate built into their costs, along with S4 AP6 guns.

Chimera *must* be AV12/11/10 and should cost 45 without Turret (10 pts).

IG tanks are slightly overpriced, but it's more important that the Troops cost come down.

Ogryns are suck but need to be better; I propose FNP and Rending CCWs.

Sentinels should gain Deep Strike, Infiltrate, and Scout rules to be super sneaky.

Advisors should be max of 35 pts and W2. I like Priest and Commissar to be (and confer) Fearless, while Psyker is a walking Psychic Hood with a Psychic attack.

Indeed, I mocked up an IG Codex following these ideas a while ago. It's not that hard to get right, so I figure Jervis has something like this already.

Polonius wrote:50pt squad, 6pt sgts with access to 5pt power weapons and 10pt I'm not sure what people want. They seem to want change, but afraid of any. What would you like the base IG squad to look like?

I'd like 4 base IG squads folded under 4 base Platoons:
- Infantry Squad (45 pts; Sv5+ & S3 AP- Lasgun, 1 Heavy, 1 Special, Chimera option)
- Stealth Squad (55 pts; Sv6+ w/ Cameoline & S3 AP- Lasgun, 1 Heavy, 1 Special, Chimera option)
- Grenadier Squad (60 pts; BS4 Sv4+ & S4 AP6 Hellgun, 2 Specials, Chimera option)
- Conscript Squad (35 pts; Sv 6+ & S3 AP- LP&CCW, 2 sub-Specials)

Would my suggestion of adding the heavy stubber to the special weapon selections change things at all?

I definitely agree the main problem is the prevelence of Meqs and the all or nothing nature of AP. If Orks rules the battlefield the grenade launcher would look a lot more appealing. Hey, what if the krak grenade was S6, AP3? Hmm?

Anyway assuming weapon stats stay the same, I see something like:

Flamer 5
Grenade Launcher 5
Melta 10
Heavy Stubber 10
Plasma 15

just pricing by utility. I'd also like to see some option for 2 specials, either storm troops as troops, a fast attack team (maybe on a salamander or even better a new jeep type vehicle) or at a premium for all squads.

Sorry guys, but Plasmas on BS3 Sv5+ guys are not worth 15. They're not even worth 10.

And raising the price, as Janthkin and I have said (and others) changes nothing. It just means we pay more for the same thing. You're not going to change what we take, only the amount in which we take it.

BYE

Ok, here's an odd idea. What if standard guard squads could not take a las cannon, but instead you could buy as a troop choice cheap Heavy Weapons Squads of 5 men/1 heavy that could take a lascannon, plasma cannon or autocannon and "entrench" instead of shooting one turn for a 4+ cover save? Sort of like DoW heavy weapons troopers, or real life machine gun nests. It sort of takes the super spam weapons out of general platoons, but still allows you to get a few if needed (this is on the assumption that infantry platoons can still take a bunch of squads per slot mind you.)

It could work pretty well if it let the lascannon live longer, but still kept the numbers down.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry guys, but Plasmas on BS3 Sv5+ guys are not worth 15. They're not even worth 10.

And raising the price, as Janthkin and I have said (and others) changes nothing. It just means we pay more for the same thing. You're not going to change what we take, only the amount in which we take it.

BYE

You can't say that plasma guns aren't worth 15pts, and then say that people will buy them no matter how much they cost. I think if plasma guns cost 20 pts in the current codex, and nothing else changed, half the weapons for IG would still be plasma. This is due to two reason: Plasma is really good at dealing with MEQs and MCc, and it's also pretty good at dealing with vehicles, light infantry, and pretty much every target in the game. It's the only special with any range that's not tragically underpowered, and it's the main way IG deal with termies and other 2+ save nasties.

The fix needs to be three pronged:
1) adjust the price of plasma so it's no longer a no brainer (and to reflect it's amazing utility) while dropping the base cost for regular IG so that other squad builds (AC/GL, HB/F) can be bought in the numbers to compete.
2) Increase the ability of IG squads to perform in any other role than the sit and fire las/plas. Power Weapons, better grenade launchers, cheaper chimeras, etc.
3) Give IG the tools to deal with 2+ saves in combat: fists, rending ogryn, sentinels with power weapons, etc.

If all three of these happen, and IG las/plas are say 85pts [45+25+15], while Armored fists with double flamer and a power weapon are 65pts [45 base plue 10 for vet with PW and 12 for two flamers] plus a 60pt chimera; I think there is a viable competition. If grenade launchers are A2 and 6pts, a command section with 4 will cost 64pts and get 8 mobile S6 shots. Las/plas will always be the backbone of IG, which is why I'd lower the cost of them. Las/plas isn't just taken because it's good, everything else is laughably overcosted or underpowered.

In the long run, I think yes, Plasma is three times as good as a flamer. It simply is, and simply saying that it's not worth 15 pts on a guardsman ignores that 60pts for 10IG and a plasma would be worth it, as would 85pt las/plas squads

Alternatively, you could price IG squads at 50 and simply give them a Heavy Bolter and flamer standard. Allow a free swap to melta or Grenade launcher, and a 10ptbump to a plasma gun. Allow a free swap for mortar, 10pts for ML or AC, and 20 pts for Lascannon. Allow a Vet for 5pts (comes with shotgun, lp&ccw, and a targeter) that can take 10pt plasma pistol and 5 pt power weapon. Taking a vet allows for advisors, like a 10pt preacher (vet sarge stats) that adds some sort of combat re-roll or rage move and can take a cheap eviserator.

Polonius wrote:You can't say that plasma guns aren't worth 15pts, and then say that people will buy them no matter how much they cost.

True to a point, but it depends on context.

Something is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it, so if we'll pay 15 points for a Plasma Gun then yes, 15 points is worth it for a Plasma Gun. But that's artificially jacking the price up on something we were going to use anyway - the demand hasn't gone away or changed, only the price has. But from the context of comparison between the same weapon in other armies, where, say, it's worth 10 points on a BS4 Sv3+ guy (15 if it wasn't for Gets Hot!), then there's no way that the same gun can be somehow worth more on someone who hits less often and dies more easily to overheat.

Wehrkind wrote:What if standard guard squads could not take a las cannon

That would actually 'solve' the problem of people always taking Las/Plas squads because we need Las/Plas squads, but it is a GW solution - solve one problem, create 10 new ones at the same time. That and it's highly arbitrary.

BYE

yes an no. I'd say stick with the current one but add a few tweaks, the increased BS just for lasguns could be good, either that or at least a pt drop per trooper. Also add a bayonet rule, either fights first in first round of combat (extended reach) or counts as two ccws in first round. This should hopefully encourage players to advance troop platoons, or at least give the option to, rather than just digging in all the time. With a load of Commisars hanging around Guardsman would charge anything even if it was suicide.

Die chaos power armoured scum...... *ting*.....bayonet broke.....hmmmmm.....SH&£%(*")"!!!!!!




glllllllllllllllllllllllllluuuuuuuuurrrrrrg

The stubbers would be cool if they give them 18'' assault and 36'' range

I am not saying that one couldn't get a lascannon, just that perhaps it would be trickier. One could lower the points of missile launchers and what ever else to balance it out.

I think the question is really "Is las/plas bad because there is no reason to take anything else?" vs. "Is las/plas bad because it is not fluffy?" If the answer is "yes" to the first you simply have to limit the numbers you can take, or seriously lower the price/effect of other options. As you said, they seem to be needed at any price.

If the answer is yes to the second, my idea works, so long as you lower the price of other options to balance things out.