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Again, Nurgle would be overly pleased if Morty is 7th (fluff), or not (meaning better) .

All Horus needs is a feathered hat to go with his fur coat...and maybe some color...

Sanctjud wrote:Again, Nurgle would be overly pleased if Morty is 7th (fluff), or not (meaning better) .

All Horus needs is a feathered hat to go with his fur coat...and maybe some color...

How pleased would Nurgle be? (£££££)

He'd visit all of us and give us gifts of plaque on our shins and elbows. Maybe some boils under the left shoulderblade...

Sanctjud wrote:He'd visit all of us and give us gifts of plaque on our shins and elbows. Maybe some boils under the left shoulderblade...

All of us? But I didn't do anything!

Come on Dave, Sanguinius......................

Next Up:

7th: Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones, But Russ Will Really Hurt Me.

Yep, finishing in - a still impressive - 7th, it's the peoples favourite. Magnus The Red. The Crimson King. Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The GINGER!!!

Magnus is very much a sympathy story, engaging many people with his ultimately good intentions but fall from grace. An almost Tragic Hero. I know this good intentions and convoluted story is the kind of thing I have been endorsing so far, however there's more to Magnus than just this IMHO.

I'll start off with the good; The Thousand Sons are possibly the best looking Legion there is, the whole Egyptian theme and red/blue and gold colour scheme looks great and suits their mystical imagery. Magnus himself looks suitable as well, coming across as very intimidating and an almost magical being, more so than the usual Primarch at least! The horns, the gold armour, the deep red (GINGER!!!) hair and the whacking great axe all look very cool. This brutal image also suits Magnus in that it can be misinterpreted, as are his actions. It further detaches him from humanity; fitting his character and story.

Also, Magnus has some of the most noble of ideals; trying to prevent the Heresy before it can begin and then trying to forewarn the Emperor. He ultimately would've fought for the loyalists if it were not for Russ/Horus bitch-slapping him, further benefiting his tragic story. Magnus also appeared to be misunderstood in his use of the warp, causing him to not be trusted and feared by the Imperium, whereas Magnus only sought to use it for good. Magnus also appeared to be a very 'caring' kind of guy, trying to preserve the history of conquered nations etc.
As you can see, Magnus was a good guy with good intentions, who comes across as a victim; unfairly persecuted and forced to fight for Horus. However, how much of this story and suffering did Magnus bring upon himself?

This is where I explain why, for me, Magnus only finished seventh and isn't favoured by me quite so much as he is by everyone else. It's clear Magnus is a very good guy (which I like) and has a great story and image, however I believe he's partially to blame for his own downfall due to his own flaws.
Knowledge is power (Space Wolves are also power!) is one of the key tenets of Magnus. However, he didn't know as much as he thought and it's largely this arrogance that has caused Magnus to not rate as highly as he could have. Ferrus Manus is ranked all the way down in 17th because of his arrogance! Magnus believed himself to be omniscient and the master of the warp and whilst some sympathise with him for his downfall, I partially blame him. How could he believe he was the master of something that couldn't actually be seen or properly understood?! Now I'm good at certain subjects (English, History etc.) however, I'm not so good at understanding that which doesn't exist in the same dimension, whereas Magnus thought he was.
It's not some harmless mistake either! Lets say I thought I was amazing at football and tried to do keepy-uppies in my living room, then I lost control of the ball and it broke a vase - my bad, but no big deal. Lets say Magnus was trying to do the same, but his football was the warp. Magnus just doesn't break a vase, he breaks the priceless ming vase that is the Emperors throne room and causes two Legions to fight one-another instead of prevent Horus, thereby causing half the galaxy to burn and a millennia of constant war and suffering. This CAN all be led back to Magnus, so let's be frank: he messed up. Big Time.
Knowledge is power. Assuming you know everything is just god-damn stupid.
Also, could Magnus really not have hot-footed it over to Terra to warn the Emperor about Horus?! I mean it's quite a big deal, whilst telling daddy as-soon-as-possible would be good, being able to fully warn and explain it to him is better! It's not like he was racing Horus to Terra. At the time, Horus was in a freakin' coma!! If he went to Terra himself he could have properly warned the Emperor and made him understand the situation, at least getting him to give Horus a ring and check everything is all right! Instead Magnus damns himself, his Legion, the citizens of prospero and half the Imperium. I know, flying over to Terra is easier said than done etc. but when the fate of the galaxy is at stake, wouldn't you want to do it properly!?

And when Russ went all chopity chop, stabidy stab on Magnus and his Legion why did he 1st sit back and watch them die then wade in there and give them all to the gods of Chaos? I know what his though process was (I deserve it etc.) but why would you then turn to the force which you know just turned your brother evil and has constantly manipulated and mutated you and your entire Legion?! The gods of Chaos haven't exactly been your best friends in all this, in fact, they were to blame and you know it!

Finally, what made Magnus think the warp was a play-toy?! He's seen 1st hand it's not a nice place, it's full of predators (not those predators!!), requires mass-sacrifice and he's seen the mutation it can wreak, from his own Legion and colonies he 'liberated'.
I mean, personally I'd trust a nice car more than I would an incredibly flashy car which I had to sacrifice hundreds of people to obtain!
Lets see... Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that is reluctant to be controlled? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that requires human sacrifice? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that you don't fully understand? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that your dad - the leader of the human race, the man who you respect more than anyone else and the smartest dude around - has told you not to play with? Check.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the warp doesn't seem like the most practical of tools around does it? I think Russ proved a pointy stick can do the same job but better!

This section has been filled with a lot more negatives than most of the top-tens have (and will), so why is Magnus still seventh?! Because he has such a good and almost tragic story and has so much character in himself. This could have got him 2nd or 3rd or whatnot, but because of his (ironic) arrogance and idiocy, he's down in seventh.

Magnus; full of contradictions and irony: he's so smart yet so stupid.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanctjud wrote:He'd visit all of us and give us gifts of plaque on our shins and elbows. Maybe some boils under the left shoulderblade...

Well yeah, how about something I don't have?!

Ediin wrote:Come on Dave, Sanguinius......................

Wrong! Again. I'm expecting Ediin that it's only the guy in 1st place you'll guess correctly and that'd be after I've ranked #2!

Going back on Horus

Just Dave wrote:However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand.

One thing that a lot of people seem to simply forget/ignore is that Horus was on death's door step. Had he not accepted the deal, he would have died. So he didn't only choose to side with Chaos, he also chose to live. Also, they hadn't exactly introduced them as 'Chaos Gods' by than, they were using Erebus as a mouthpiece, a familiar face to Horus.

Maybe you can see it as a weakness in his character, or maybe you can see it as something that makes him even more 'human', that when he had to choose between life or honor, he picked life.

Just Dave wrote: Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!

I really don't mean to be snide or snarky... but really?

The entire Great Crusade and the Imperium are based around the idea that false gods and superstition have been holding back humanity and that only by being free of those concept can the human potential truly be reached. Gavriel Loken and Syndermann have like 4 chapters' worth of conversation on that subject.

The Emperor is the champion of that idea. He's the guiding light of truth, reason and science in the universe. The Marines and Primarch have sworn themselves to that ideal.
Granted, as the whole story turns into the fight between the Chaos Gods and the soon to be Emperor-God, this angle gets dropped, but in the first 3 books of the Horus Heresy, it's a very important, powerful and ever-present theme.

So the Emperor wanting to become a God is a great betrayal of everyting Horus believed in and fought for... and not only that, he's being used to accomplish this goal. Remember how shocked and well... afraid Gavriel was after he saw Jubal be possessed. He felt like his whole world had been flipped over... and that was over seeing a comrade be possessed, not seeing your father figure and liege says he endorses and emulate the things you've been bleeding and suffering to stamp out for centuries.

full of contradictions and irony: ...so smart yet so stupid.

Much like the Thousand Sons Rules. ZING!

Hhahahahah this thread is the best! *claps hands excitedly* hahahaha more more *claps more*.....please?.....pretty please, as pretty as my favorite bird...the Raven...oooooh *claps again*

I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.

Still rooting for Alph or Morty .

Just Dave wrote:Wrong! Again. I'm expecting Ediin that it's only the guy in 1st place you'll guess correctly and that'd be after I've ranked #2!

Alright, the next one is Dorn, only because of the ''Iron Cage'' fubar . Otherwise he's a pretty cool dude.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.

And this made WAY more sense before they (all together now!) screwed up the fluff on the Council of Nikaea.

Originally, it banned SORCERY not psykers.

It makes less sense now, and cheapens the whole story really.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:
Still rooting for Alph ...

Me too, but I am not unrealistic there, especially as Alpharius/Omegon definitely also fall into the "We Really Don't Know Much About Them, Do We?" category...

Keep up the good work, i'm loving this thread so far. I'm glad Magnus did as well as he did; he deserved some credit for his noble intentions, even though, as you already pointed out, he screwed up quite bad. Damn those space puppies

Thanks for all the support guys, it's really appreciated and I'm glad you're also enjoying it!

I'm surprised about the lack of complaints of Magnus to be honest though! but I won't complain...

Tarkand wrote:Going back on Horus

Just Dave wrote:However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand.

One thing that a lot of people seem to simply forget/ignore is that Horus was on death's door step. Had he not accepted the deal, he would have died. So he didn't only choose to side with Chaos, he also chose to live. Also, they hadn't exactly introduced them as 'Chaos Gods' by than, they were using Erebus as a mouthpiece, a familiar face to Horus.

Maybe you can see it as a weakness in his character, or maybe you can see it as something that makes him even more 'human', that when he had to choose between life or honor, he picked life.

Just Dave wrote: Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!

I really don't mean to be snide or snarky... but really?

The entire Great Crusade and the Imperium are based around the idea that false gods and superstition have been holding back humanity and that only by being free of those concept can the human potential truly be reached. Gavriel Loken and Syndermann have like 4 chapters' worth of conversation on that subject.

The Emperor is the champion of that idea. He's the guiding light of truth, reason and science in the universe. The Marines and Primarch have sworn themselves to that ideal.
Granted, as the whole story turns into the fight between the Chaos Gods and the soon to be Emperor-God, this angle gets dropped, but in the first 3 books of the Horus Heresy, it's a very important, powerful and ever-present theme.

So the Emperor wanting to become a God is a great betrayal of everyting Horus believed in and fought for... and not only that, he's being used to accomplish this goal. Remember how shocked and well... afraid Gavriel was after he saw Jubal be possessed. He felt like his whole world had been flipped over... and that was over seeing a comrade be possessed, not seeing your father figure and liege says he endorses and emulate the things you've been bleeding and suffering to stamp out for centuries.

Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.

And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.

That's my opinion at least.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.

Still rooting for Alph or Morty .

That may be true, however surely (IMHO) there's a better time to use the warp for good than when the galaxy is on a knife edge. Even so, he fudged it up none-the-less!

I really don't know who's next though...

Sanctjud wrote:

full of contradictions and irony: ...so smart yet so stupid.

Much like the Thousand Sons Rules. ZING!

*claps hands*

I hate this thread! It's the worst! Get stuffed!

SaintHazard wrote:I hate this thread! It's the worst! Get stuffed!

I <3 U.

Just Dave wrote:
I'm surprised about the lack of complaints of Magnus to be honest though! but I won't complain...

I could complain about Magnus if you want, but that would be mostly my status as a Thousand Sons player (and fanboy) coming through O=)

I still think Corax wins!

Just Dave wrote:Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.

And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.

Well, the point I wanted to make was that the will to live is a powerful one... let's face, if the good choice implies dying, the bad choice becomes a hell of a lot more tempting. It doesn't make it the good choice, and I'm not defending it... but yeah, considering how much ambition Horus has, I don't think he could simply accept a solution that meant he died.

The whole fact that his life was in the balance made the whole arguing between Erebus and Magnus moot IMO... Horus was going to choose to live.

And it doesn't really matter that the Emperor deserves it or not... the whole point is that Horus is shocked when he sees the Shrine World in the vision. It is has much a shock as I expected, because we actually see it in the book . I think you're downplaying it a lot. Heck, believing in the Lectio Divinatus was a punishable offense during the Great Crusade (with at the very least censure) - on orders of the Emperor.

If learning that everything you believed, everything you strive for and everything you suffered for was a lie... learning that all those soldiers under your command died for a lie and you have their blood on their hand... if that's not a good reason to rebel, than I don't know what is.

Keep in mind that I'm of the opinion Horus was played like a fool and the vision were lies to manipulate him - I don't think he was right... but I can understand how the character would come the conclusion he did, it makes sense.

Dave, I like you and you're a great guy.

I can agree with most of your assessments.

However, your write-up for Horus is something I just cannot agree with.

While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.

Jimsolo wrote:While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.

I disagree. The reason for Horus downfall was not poor writing, it was to create a stupid, stupid plot. And it did, to 100%.

I especially agree about this:

The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it.

Cultist: So, we've arrived at the Serpent Lodge. Make yourself at home.

Horus: Can I ask you a few questions?

Cultist: Sure.

Horus: What does the huge 8-pointed star on the front door mean?

Cultist: It's a wheel from a groundcar which we put there for the engineer to fix.

Horus: I see. So what purpose does the huge cauldron of blood fulfil?

Cultist: It's not blood, it's Tomato juice from Emp-Mart. Why dont you lie down for a sec and drink this vial of purple innocent liquid?

Horus: Sure! Is it alcohol? I'm driving you know.

Cultist: No, it's not alcohol. Now, put on this brainwash-mindcontrol-helmet and listen to some relaxing music!

Horus: Yaay!

who's left in the top six? I want to place my bets. All the obvious ones were weeded out along the thread. Dorn, Alphie, and Sangie are still in the running I know, but I don't have a list of the primarchs in front of me. Little help?

I completely agree about Magnus. While he was cool, well intentioned, genuinely nice guy, he was also the wisest most well read moron in the galaxy. One bad decision and the gak hits the fan and the galaxy goes down in flames. "oops, my bad" just doesn't cut it any more. It would be a bit like George Dubyah saying "oops, heh heh, sorry folks, there were no WMDs heh heh, sorry, moving along..."

Dorn, Sanguinius, Alpharius Omegon, Konrad Curze, Mortarion and Corax.

My bets are:

1. Dorn

2. Konrad Curze

3. Alpharius

4. Corax

5. Sanguinius

6. Mortarion

Of course, I'll be 100% wrong!

I'm looking at Alphie for #2 and Sangie as #1. My reasons are that Alpharius has possibly the most complicated character and that always makes for good fiction, and Sanguinious is the most revered religious figure in the 40k world next to da Emprah himself. Shrines for him are everywhere, even on worlds that have nothing to do with the BA otherwise. It's a bit of a 'sacrificial lamb' kind of story with him and the big E both, and we all know how much cults love a sacrifical lamb. (mmm tasty! I gotta start a cult!)

Besides that, Sangie has wings, which is just cool, definitely sets him apart, and he picked up a bloodthirster, flew it up in the air and broke its back over his knee as he landed. If that isn't an act of absolute badass I don't know what is.

On his downside, he is kind of a boring 'golden boy' personality, like many of the other spoiled little kid primarchs who got offed far back on the countdown. What he lacks in outstanding character quirks he makes up for with wings and back-broken bloodthirsters and taking the stand against Horus in his last moment.

I personally do not like BA and would never start proxying them just because they got a shiney new codex, just on principle. But their primarch was indeed the pinnacle idealism of an Angel. If the Emperor is God/Jesus, then Sangie is Michael/Gabriel... Horus obviously Lucifer. Etc. come to think of it, are there ANY works of fiction GW doesn't borrow imagery from?

Guitardian wrote:come to think of it, are there ANY works of fiction GW doesn't borrow imagery from?

I have yet to see a Galaxy class starship in 40k.

But I'd like to.

SaintHazard wrote:

Guitardian wrote:come to think of it, are there ANY works of fiction GW doesn't borrow imagery from?

I have yet to see a Galaxy class starship in 40k.

But I'd like to.

Oh no!

That's like a dare to GW.

It's now in the post and due any year now!

Just like the royal mail.

On a side, more serious, note. When am I getting my fix. I want number six.

Poetic too.

Mortarion and Alpherius will me the top 2 I just cant tell who will win but I think Mortarian is the winner we'll se though.

I personally would like to see Alpharius Omegon at the top. But I don't think they will because we know so little about it.

Mortarion or Sanguinius will most likely hit #1 or #2 IMO.

And I hope Dorn is next. I don't think he deserves the top spot.

Yeah Dorn is a lame not the kind of guy that gets the #1 spot.

No....Dorn would be *perfect* to be warmaster. He's loyal, but not too imaginative, and not really a good enough strategist to cause too much trouble even if he does rebel. Always promote loyal mediocrity over talent. Havent any of you run a military dictatorship before?

I run into that problem ALL the time.

When you choose you minions you want unimaginitive hunks of muscle with absolutly zero ambition and the brain of a Grox.