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Grey Templar wrote:I run into that problem ALL the time.

me too :(

Grey Templar wrote:
When you choose you minions you want unimaginitive hunks of muscle with absolutly zero ambition and the brain of a Grox.

well.... look if they have imagination thats icing on the cake but its the zero ambition part that really makes a suitable candidate. anything you get after that is gravy

AbaddonFidelis wrote:No....Dorn would be *perfect* to be warmaster. He's loyal, but not too imaginative, and not really a good enough strategist to cause too much trouble even if he does rebel. Always promote loyal mediocrity over talent. Havent any of you run a military dictatorship before?

ever looked at Dornian Heresy at b&c?

Grey Templar wrote:When you choose you minions you want unimaginitive hunks of muscle with absolutly zero ambition and the brain of a Grox.

So this guy would be perfect?

Not make fun of Hulk. Hulk smart. Hulk studying for GED.

SaintHazard wrote:Not make fun of Hulk. Hulk smart. Hulk studying for GED.

Yes, I feel bad now. I love Hulk.

When will the next Primarch come up?

I still think it'll be Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just remembered another GW name fubar, the worst of them all!!!!!

Horus.

Seriously, naming your Primarch after an Egyptian god and adopting said gods' symbol (The Eye of Horus) is kind of dorky.

Tarkand wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.

And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.

Well, the point I wanted to make was that the will to live is a powerful one... let's face, if the good choice implies dying, the bad choice becomes a hell of a lot more tempting. It doesn't make it the good choice, and I'm not defending it... but yeah, considering how much ambition Horus has, I don't think he could simply accept a solution that meant he died.

The whole fact that his life was in the balance made the whole arguing between Erebus and Magnus moot IMO... Horus was going to choose to live.

And it doesn't really matter that the Emperor deserves it or not... the whole point is that Horus is shocked when he sees the Shrine World in the vision. It is has much a shock as I expected, because we actually see it in the book . I think you're downplaying it a lot. Heck, believing in the Lectio Divinatus was a punishable offense during the Great Crusade (with at the very least censure) - on orders of the Emperor.

If learning that everything you believed, everything you strive for and everything you suffered for was a lie... learning that all those soldiers under your command died for a lie and you have their blood on their hand... if that's not a good reason to rebel, than I don't know what is.

Keep in mind that I'm of the opinion Horus was played like a fool and the vision were lies to manipulate him - I don't think he was right... but I can understand how the character would come the conclusion he did, it makes sense.

I agree, Life over Death is always the initially most attractive choice and Horus was played for a fool and believed it. BELIEVED IT!

However, as a Primarch, a man who's witness masses of death and someone who's job it is to protect humanity, I still believe he should've chosen death. Maybe it's just me, but If I had to choose between mine or my friends lives to be saved, I'd choose theirs. Every time. Honestly. And as a super-human warrior I believe Horus should have been a lot more reasonable with his decision. Obviously it wasn't a normal situation, but he had the potential to think clearly and thoroughly and he didn't and for that, I criticise him. He should have known better.

Jimsolo wrote:Dave, I like you and you're a great guy.

I can agree with most of your assessments.

However, your write-up for Horus is something I just cannot agree with.

While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.

I agree, I am a great guy.

No, I'm joking, but thank you. I do agree that Horus really should've seen through the plot - hence his ranking - I liked him as a character, as a leader and as a Primarch. I like the Horus Heresy plot twist, what I don't like however is Horus' actions involving them. So yes, to a large extent I agree with you Jim!
I don't entirely blame the writing however and that he was a stereotypical turncoat (see Morty and Angron for better examples), but yeah it should've taken a bit more IMHO.

Ediin wrote:Of course, I'll be 100% wrong!

Was VERY busy yesterday so I couldn't add in another ranking, I intend to do one shortly though guys, thank and sorry!

I will point, the top six in particular has seen a significant change from my original thoughts for the rankings. Choosing who goes where in this top six is largely tricky and many of the places are very close in favour. But Anyway, on with the list!

6th: Fisting has never been more painful.

In at number six, it's the man in yellow. It's Ali G... I mean Rogal Dorn.

Where-as Gulliman is boring and Khan is kick-ass, Dorn is somewhere in-between. He's more down-to-earth than gravity, but he's not boring in doing so, infact it enhances his no-nonsense, bad ass, "my [Imperial] fist, your face" appearance. Whilst some see Rogal (yeah, me and him are on 1st name terms) a bit dull or monotonous, I see him as heroic and a true warrior and I intend to explain why...

Dorn believes in honesty - even if it means damage to himself - above all else, which is something I thoroughly approve of and often do myself. I doubt it's a coincidence that all (OK, most) the manipulative and self-centred Primarch's are the traitors. As someone who has millions of lives depending on them, I believe a Primarch should be honest. Obviously honesty doesn't work all the time, but it's ultimately the right thing in most cases. This meant that Dorn was almost certainly the most trust-worthy Primarch and simply a stand-up guy which - in the Warhammer universe in particular - are both great traits.

When Garro arrives claiming Horus to be a traitor, most Primarchs would've completely ignored him or even slapped him silly. And although Dorn did - understandably - consider such an action, ultimately he listened to Garro and rather than being ignorant or stubborn, he considered what Garro was saying and ultimately the loyalists gained from it. One thing I as a person dislike is when people blatantly refuse to consider the alternative argument (such as fan-boys) and whilst most Primarchs would've done this, Dorn didn't and for that he gains a lot of respect.
Also, in Nemesis, Dorn concludes the Master of Assassins to be Malcador and through bluffing/assuming alone gets Malcador to admit this. One of the assassins asks Dorn how he knew it and Dorn said it was simply an assumption and through taking his mask off, Malcador admits this. Dorn makes Malcador the Sigillite, the Emperors left (Primarchs are right) hand look like a fool and Malcador's realisation of this is priceless. More Priceless than mastercard. More priceless than the look on the cashiers face as you buy the Miley Cirus DVD alongside some Vaseline and tissues.

Other positives about Rogal Dorn: he valued the counsel and efforts of his father even though he knew he wasn't blood-related, Perturabo for example did otherwise. The Phalanx is cool. He looks cool, like really cool. His appearance really fits his character of an overall great and loyal guy but one that you won't want to mess with. The Imperial fists are also cool.

Dorn himself I'd argue is the most reasonable-minded Primarch, relying on proof and truth above all. He's not black and white or wholly one-sided. I was listening to some movie soundtracks earlier and this phrase popped up that some may like and really suits Dorn. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must."
For example, when he was charged with bolstering the defences of the Imperial Palace, Dorn disliked and regretted it as he marred the beauty of the Palace, however he knew it was his duty and it was necessary. Similarly, Dorn recognises that it's not the Horus he knows, his brother, leading the rebellion. He believes that Horus has been tainted and is not sound of mind and you know what? He's right. Again.
When Gulliman oh-so-popularly introduced the Codex Astartes, Dorn fiercely opposed it but upon seeing how close he and his brothers were to another civil war, he conceded and accepted the Codex Astartes, once again proving his wisdom and reason.

However, Dorn is also well recognised as a military genius and rightly so. He led the defences of Terra before and during the siege, his intelligence and mastery of battle and defence vital to holding off superior forces led by a skilled enemy. A fleet-based chapter makes a lot of sense and suits the role of the Adeptus Astartes, as does the principle of over-whelming firepower. Dorn was reasonable of heart, mind and sword.

Many Primarchs have a clear theme; Sanguinus is of an Angel, Corax of a Bird, Mortarion of the Grim Reaper, Angron as rage () but Rogal Dorn is of a knight. Pure in mind and body. Virtuous. A devastating warrior. A Great Leader. A beacon of truth and light. In The Grim Darkness of the future, Rogal Dorn is a proverbial torch, although the gold armour helps with this...

Dorn has all the qualities I like: Honesty, Loyalty, Reason, Martial and Military Prowess, Leadership, Bravery, the list goes on...

However, he's not perfect, which although this can add character, to me it simply lessens Dorn to an extent:
- Pain Gloves, a bit 'emo' for my liking...
- Iron Cage, expecting a fair fight?! Really? That's like expecting manliness from Christiano Ronaldo.
- His death is also underwhelming, dying aboard a Chaos ship to no-one in particular is a bit underwhelming. Whilst he did attack said ship for noble reasons, I'd rather he had a more suitably nasty enemy to die to, such as a Daemon Prince, Avatar, Greater Daemon etc... Not some random Chaos Space Marine(s).

However, Dorn's weaknesses and flaws (although very slight) do help add to his character to an extent, helping to understand his feeling of failure in that he failed his Legion, The Imperium and The Emperor. This shows Dorn also has emotion beneath his intelligence and rock-hard exterior.

In at number 6, for being Knightly and really winding up Perturabo, it's Rogal Dorn.

Nice Dorn not in the top spot I called that can't wait to see whos next. This thread is EPIC.

If pretty she boy sanguinius gets first... above russ, khan, and everyone else...

More priceless than the look on the cashiers face as you buy the Miley Cirus DVD alongside some Vaseline and tissues.

This requires a demotivational poster....

Man this thread is awesome. I'm starting to wonder who's got the top spot...the suspense is killing me!

Morty's still not out?! I'm supporting a winner for a change!

Alright this is like the fourth time I've made this prediction, but eventually I HAVE to be right!

Mortarion is next!

Silence Non-believer, Father Nurgle will take us to victory
/giggles maniacally
Sanguinus next.

I know who's next.

Just Dave wrote:I know who's next.

...yes. Yes you do, Dave.

*headpat*

Wrong. Again.

Alright, next one is Corax, due to the whole bio-engineered monsters thing.

Alpharius on 3 or 4

Corax or Mortarion is my guess for #5.

Alpharius or Night Haunter I think deserves #1.

Sanguinius I think might make it to #2 or #3

I think the winged man will be next he's to good to be in the top spot top 2 will be Alpherius #2 and Mortarion #1 seeing as they are just full of greatness.

Alpharius and Morty are in the top 5. That's all I need to know.
Though I'm still saying Konrad is #1.

Alpharius and Morty are in the top 5. That's all I need to know.

QFT.

Melissia wrote:Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.

I suppose I'll produce my own whenever I hit 3k, it should be amusing.

Totally agree.

As has been recognised, we're now in the top five and Ediin (and most others it seems) is still predicting it wrong! In Alphabetical order the remaining Primarchs are:

Alpharius

Corax

Konrad Kurze

Mortarion

Sanguinus

and next up is:

5th: Batting For The Other Team.

Will that do Alpharius? The picture, not the ranking of course...

Yep, it's another contentious one. Alpharius/Omegon are in at number 5.

The Alpha Legion are, without doubt, cool. Their whole manipulative, deceiving tactics are both very intelligent and very effective, made all the better by pissing off Gulliman. The idea of the Great Crusade is to unite all the sections of humanity and if the Alpha Legion's tactics prevent collateral damage then all power to them. They don't need to crush an entire sector when they can do it with one shot.
This also makes them a hugely interesting faction within the Horus Heresy and current 40K universe. We don't know what the Alpha Legions intentions were during the Horus Heresy, we can presume it's following the Cabal and the Legion novel basically confirms this, but we ourselves create this confusion as we simply don't know what's true or false about the Alpha Legion. No-one outside it knows they even have 2 freakin' primarchs!
That's like someone not knowing one of their sons exists and not just due to Madonna adopting/stealing the blighter!
Wait... Chaos = Madonna? There's a new theory...
And now, we don't even know if Alpharius is alive!

Within the modern 40K universe we don't know much - if anything - of the Alpha Legion and their motivations. The Imperium has even proclaimed them destroyed multiple times! How you can not like this aspect of the Alpha Legion is beyond me...

Then there's the imagery Alpharius follows; that of the hydra. For a fighting force, this is a great and effective concept. One of Horus' favourite tactics was a spear-tip to cut off the head/leader of the enemy and leave them confused and disorganised, however this cannot be done with the Alpha Legion. You simply cannot cut off it's head without it being replaced and this isn't due to Chaos mutation either!

Further on the list of positives about Alpharius is his actions when he was found by the great crusade; he boarded Horus' ship and made it to the bridge, whereby he dodged Horus' shots and his followers being cut down and met Horus face-to-face where they both rejoiced at seeing one another! That's awesome! He knew a Primarch was coming, he knew which ship was his, where the bridge was, managed to board it and dodge all that fire! Alpharius could only have made this moment better if instead of him and Horus embracing, Alpharius kneed him in his gonads and said "that's for shooting at me. Brother." that would've been awesome! Have you also ever considered where Omegon was at this time?
Actually, on does Ferrus have balls of steel? I know, with this and madonna I'm doing a lot of 40K theorising today, inspired by the mystery of the Alpha Legion I guess!

So, as you can see by Rogal Dorn, I respect honour and loyalty, striving to do things for the greater good and for the good of the people. Ultimately, although he turned traitor/cracked a few billion eggs to do so, Alpharius was striving to do the right thing/make one helluva an omelet. He sacrificed his ideals, his honour, his reputation and his father in order to try and save the galaxy. Alpharius realised how much of a cruddy race humanity is (the Imperium and Big Brother is evidence of this) and was willing to sacrifice them to save the galaxy. To me, that earns a whole lot of respect!
He sacrificed everything he had (except hundreds of thousands of super human warriors) in order to save the galaxy. And although he failed, I personally believe that in the current 40K Alpharius/Omegon are trying to destroy both humanity and chaos through killing factions on both sides.
Magnus wanted to help humanity, however he turned traitor and turned to Chaos. Alpharius wanted to help the galaxy and didn't technically (seemingly anyway) turn Chaos to do so. Whereas Magnus kicks himself in the crotch, Alpharius kicks both Horus and The Emperor in the crotch!

Alpharius saw and accepted the flaw of the Great Crusade and realised the flaws to his father and brothers, however he tried to look past them and shape a brighter future - as the Primarchs were ultimately intended to. Some Primarchs blindly followed the Emperor (Ultramarines, Fists), some turned traitor (Word Bearers, Luna Wolves), some just turned to killing everything (Iron Warriors), some just sucked (Iron Hands, Dark Angels) whereas ultimately Alpharius strived to help the galaxy and Imperium. For which he gets uber-kudos.
Similarly, whilst some of the Primarchs had uber-special abilities such a Magnus, Sanguinus, Ferrus etc. Alpharius was just a very smart and very good guy. I know there's two of him/them, but both of them are still very smart/good guys but neither are anything special except in intellect. This adds more character to Alpharius IMHO and makes me like him for his noble intentions even more as he, above all others, would've struggled to achieve them.

So why is he only ranked 5th? I admit, he could have easily been within or leading the top three, as could almost any of the final five (except he who is placed fourth... ) and writing this up makes me like him even more, however I feel he doesn't quite have the depth or heroism of some others.
For example, in order to say hello to Horus he sacrificed some of his followers. In order to punch the Nurthene he sacrificed much of the Geno's. Whilst you can argue that he's doing this for good reasons and such, it's still very, very coldhearted. Yes, he may be doing it for all the right reasons and sacrifices are needed etc. but it's still a very callous approach to the lives of others.
A big no-no for me is also how he MAY have been killed by Gulliman. He displayed arrogance and like many other primarchs, this could've been his down-fall. Ultimately, he may have been allowing Gulliman to seemingly kill him (remember, his kill is unconfirmed), he still made a mistake which Gulliman fully exploited - and credit to him.
Finally, he further sacrificed lives in order to prove a point, such as when he changed his tactics because it would be 'too easy'. For us, the player, they really are Toy Soldiers that we can expend and abuse. However, to Alpharius they're his sons, his greatest weapon and his greatest supporters and IMHO he should really be a bit more careful with them. I mean, a little bit of super-glue and we fix our toy-soldiers. Glue doesn't work so well on Space Marines however...

For being so kind, yet so cold-hearted it's Alpharius. Or Omegon? And Omegon? Neither?OK, it's supposed to be Alpharius. Who? No not him! The other one...

a reasonable choice for dorn tho i would have put him lower down you forgot the fact that dorn gets the crap beaten out of him by konrad curze

i guess its partly the voice acting on the lighting tower that makes him seem less cool he doesnt sound like a primarch he sounds a bit nerdy

Wrong AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???

You're making Panda sad.

Ediin... you will never be right. :(

Even when there's only one left to go, through some cruel twist of fate, you'll still get it wrong.

Okay, so I was wrong, but eventually I have to be right.

Mortarion is next!

Ediin wrote:Wrong AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???

You're making Panda sad.

PANDA!!!! I want Panda slippers for my dog!!!!

And don't cry you'll get #1 i hope?

Omegon #2, Alpharius #1!

Loving your work Just Dave and that panda too.