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There are many blades in this world, some better than others, but none is greater than the hand that wields it. Perusing the neverending Scrolls of Google, unpainted raw examples of those figures are not readily available. There were some but of a larger scale than what we're generally used to, I believe. I won't decry the material used or form taken. However, it might not be the most precise comparison.
A small search for "japanese pvc miniatures" didn't lead me to anything worth comparing. My unfamiliarity with Japanese figures makes it difficult to discern their size; there were many smooth surfaces that looked very satisfying to paint, though.
No matter. This does not alter our course: safeguarding the innocent from restic monsters.
The miniatures in Sedition Wars is an ongoing lamentation for me. Evidently I chose to graduate from restic squire to restic knight in one fell, misguided swoop.
At least with Deadzone, one only needs to clean and prep a squad-sized force.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
@Wehrkind: Yeah it's too good not to share Very interesting for fans of the old vinyl kits. If you ever get round to fooling around with that stuff, it would be greatly appreciated if could follow your endeavours
Was that for the kits or the already painted version?
This comment is strictly for vinyl kits (pvc) produced according to the methods explained in the article by Danny Choo.
PVC figure collectibles (readypainted) that are not produced in this matter, consist of solid parts more often than not and are usually cast in more traditional molds and thus still have moldlines. They just hold a much higher quality overall and I think that also comes down to QC more than anything.
I will share some pictures for those that are not familiar with this type of kit so you can get a better idea of what I am talking about. Sorry about the upside down Predator photos, didn't realise how I was holding the phone
Spoiler:
With vinyl kits you have to deal with large pieces of excess flash from where the vinyl comes into the mold. You will need a hair dryer handy for trimming and adjusting pieces that might be a tad warped.
Generally the parts have a "memory" from when the plastic went solid (as the molecular bonds were formed) and if you heat it gently it will find it's original form. A little help doesn't hurt though.
Other problems that can arise depend on the specific material - as some kits are softer and will sag in a warm climate unless you reinforce them.
This is a closeup of Horizon's Hulk in 1/6 scale. It's just six parts and doesn't have the same amount of detail overall, but it's got details where it matters.
And here you can see it in "raw form" with the flash trimmed (the stuff that looks like calamari rings at the top of the photo)
This is ArgoNauts Predator 2 vinyl kit in 1/6 scale. I find that the Japanese kits have a higher part count than contemporary western produced kits. Granted the Predator has a lot of details and complex undercuts so it has more parts than a figure kit in general.
I have that Predator. It's amazing. I painted it so long ago I actually forgot it was vinyl, but it is.
Here are some pictures of a 7 inch tall vinyl godzilla kit:
The vinyl of these kits is definitley more pliable than the hard grey PVC, but at the same time the actual surface is tougher and harder to mar or scratch. I would love miniatures made of this material and off the quality of the godzilla above.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Brothers, I will say this- we already know PVC works fine for larger miniatures, such as those shown above. Does this alter the horror we have witnessed with human sized 28mm models? I say no.
We've always been hoping the next campaign will be better... it's time to no longer hope (and risk money) on what had been proven over and over again not to be suitable for consistent, high quality 28mm models.
Even now, the brothers receiving "relic knights" try to talk themselves into believing: "It has some detail, and with some work I can maybe remove that nasty mold line". No, brothers! We have come too far to backslide now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 13:40:40
For me, PVC on 28mm scale is like electric cars. I think it may be great in the future, when more things have been worked out, and I can see it pushing the industry forward, but it's just not to the point of replacing more traditional methods.
Quite possibly Alph. I am interested to get my Relic Knights now that some people have reported decent results. Not entirely optimistic, but at least not dreading it. Of course I haven't gotten any notifications yet, but FedEx/USPS are super fast around here, so I will probably get the boxes a few days before notification...
SPM's pictures have shown some terrible miscasts/loss of detail. User pictures have so far shown at least a "decent" quality. I'll know for certain myself on Monday.
Ok, bringing this over from the Fallen Frontiers thread, since Cyp thought the same thing I did but got promptly shouted down.
This picture "resin" model does not look right.
First off, look at the range of shadows on it. Particularly, compare the arms to the exposed chest under the chin in the middle photo. See the color difference, and note the plasticy, bright highlights off the center of the pectoral area visible and how the arms themselves have zero shininess like that, but rather a smooth transition from the highest point of color to the darkest shadows under the muscles. That's... odd. If miniatures at this scale generated shadows like that arm we wouldn't have to highlight and shade them, but rather just paint them a flat color and be done. Instead there is a nice, smooth matte surface with shadows on the arm, and the normal bright, shiney plasticy look in the chest we expect.
Similarly, look at the shoulder plates. That is painted. Resin doesn't look like that (neither does HIPS, PVC or any other plastic right out of the mold.) Note the muzzle of the gun too, same issue. Or the pouches and holster on his hips; that piping around the edges is REALLY popping, isn't it? Almost like they painted it.
Note the backdrop too; by his feet there is some lint on the black. Where is it on the rest of the back drop? Now, photoshopping a back drop a bit is hardly a crime, but it does suggest that some work has been done to the picture.
Now, I am not saying the model isn't resin; it could be anything (the chest area reminds me of PP style PRV instead of the resin you usually see, however, which comes out with a more matte finish unless you pull it early and it air cures). What it is is painted/photoshopped. My guess is that they took an airbrush and did a quick zenithal highlight of the model with a grey/white paint before taking the pictures. Maybe threw on a light wash, though the absence of paint one the chest there suggests not.
So, just saying. They are not telling you everything about that model.
Some of the sedition wars minis came out nice all thing considered, such as the Samaritan.
The biggest problem is working with the material.
Unless you can create a miniature with mold free lines than I'm not entirely interested, or if there is some new magical formula that makes cleaning up equivalent to metal or HIPs.
I could see even using restic for certain terrain bits where metal would just bend and hips would just snap.
It's got it's place, but should not dominate the market and be the go to choice of material.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They were metal and some in resin.
The Kickstarter miniatures are PVC/restic.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/14 17:58:31
Alph: Actually, I am pretty certain that is PVC like PP's models. The chest is far too glossy for most resins I have seen; like I said, usually they cure to a matte finish unless pulled from the mold less than fully cured on the outside, which in my experience happens only when the silicon mold is <100% cured and the alcohol from the mold hardener inhibits the cure on the resin model.
Cyp: I make no warranties or assurances regarding your sanity, but your eye for pictures of miniatures works fine so far as I can tell
Wehrkind- I've gotten glossy resin before- from you even! They were in a rush for this so maybe it wasn't cured fully, and likely they washed it or photoshopped it to highlight detail, but I'd bet quite a bit that that is resin, as they say. Any other explanation is too elaborate, imo- they do in-house resin casting, not PVC, and that's the fastest way for them to show a sample. Just photoshopping or washing it doesn't make it PVC when all other data indicates otherwise. Once you accept the image was doctored slightly, or the model washed, that's as far as you can go, imo.
I know you have RITides, but that's because it was an early pull like I said
It is entirely possible that it is proper resin with air brushing. My eye tells me it isn't though. I have seen a mess of air cured resin models, and the light doesn't play off them like that. Maybe the air brushed paint is screwing me up, but I would give 3:2 odds that is a PVC model. The parts that are bare plastic remind me way too much of PP's models, but then maybe it is more of a Trollcast style resin? That looked kind of odd to me too when you brought yours by.
All the models from the RK Kickstarter are PVC. They previously released models in "real resin". The PVC models are from the same factory that has produced a lot of poor Kickstarter models for various projects, and also PP's models, if I remember correctly.
This is all just to make sure we're informed and to openly discuss what has been some lackluster results from many projects in the material. People keep believing the next one will be different... and keep ending up disappointed. Better to be critical upfront than to have unrealistically high expectations and be upset by the results. Better also for companies to be upfront about quality, and not pretend this material will come close to the results resin yields.
I also updated the title to be clearer as to what this thread is about. Open communication is the best way for us to help one another avoid future PVC mismarketing and customer disappointment.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/14 20:27:55
RiTides wrote: All the models from the RK Kickstarter are PVC. They previously released models in "real resin". The PVC models are from the same factory that has produced a lot of poor Kickstarter models for various projects, and also PP's models, if I remember correctly.
This is all just to make sure we're informed and to openly discuss what has been some lackluster results from many projects in the material. People keep believing the next one will be different... and keep ending up disappointed. Better to be critical upfront than to have unrealistically high expectations and be upset by the results. Better also for companies to be upfront about quality, and not pretend this material will come close to the results resin yields.
I also updated the title to be clearer as to what this thread is about. Open communication is the best way for us to help one another avoid future PVC mismarketing and customer disappointment.
Slides a keg of ale across the bartop to brother RiTides. A toast to such a dire reality might seem gloomy, but alas the dragon must be drawn out of it's cave before it can be slain! Well said brother.
2014/06/14 21:26:26
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
My Sedition Wars minis didn'thave aby sort of problems with detail. That was all great, some easily as good as some of my favorite metal models.
It's the cleanup involved. If 40k made models in restic, a ten-man Space Marine squad would take about two hours just to clean the mold lines from. And thats just for inorganic shapes. Models like the Strain figures are a frigging nightmare, with their organic curves to have to dig down into.
Then of course you have all the parts of models that are marred by having them twisted off the sprues at the factory. I love it when models come pre-damaged.....
Someone please transport me back to the days of pewter miniatures being awesome.
Do any of the PVC casters talk about the reasons they have decided to use this material over the others?
Cheap....as....all...hell for the company to produce and then mark up?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 21:28:37
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
RiTides wrote: Brothers, I will say this- we already know PVC works fine for larger miniatures, such as those shown above. Does this alter the horror we have witnessed with human sized 28mm models? I say no.
We've always been hoping the next campaign will be better... it's time to no longer hope (and risk money) on what had been proven over and over again not to be suitable for consistent, high quality 28mm models.
Even now, the brothers receiving "relic knights" try to talk themselves into believing: "It has some detail, and with some work I can maybe remove that nasty mold line". No, brothers! We have come too far to backslide now.
I completely agree. I don't know if the process used for larger vinyl kits makes sense for 28mm miniatures and whatever the process is, the material of these larger good kits and the prepainted anime figures is substantially different than the currently available hard grey PVC 28mm miniatures.
If a company releases some figure or runs a Kickstarter that uses the vinyl process of larger kits and successfully applies them to 28mm, we're still at a point of needing to wait and see. The current trend of bad PVC 28mm miniatures is just more of the same crap.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Do any of the PVC casters talk about the reasons they have decided to use this material over the others?
Dollars.
Simple as that. It comes down to dollars.
The game designers in the instances of all of the KSes using PVC have chosen the cheapest form of the PVC. There are other forms (which are harder and hold detail better, but also require better care in designing their moulds) that are available; they've simply not been chosen yet.
In the process for Arcadia quest, 4 different PVCs were tested before the final material was chosen.
2014/06/15 02:07:30
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
We'll see if it helps for things like Arcadia Quest- but at this point, companies need to prove they can get good results from the medium... as up to this point, such faith has not been rewarded.
Granted, chibi board game miniatures are the best application of it, imo... and even if those look good, it doesn't mean much for broader wargaming use. Wrath of Kings could be very revealing... but we'll see.
2014/06/15 02:14:00
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
You mean Wrath of Kings has the potential to be Wrath of ugly Ducklings? If so I want some kinky fat ladies so I can paint their pasties in the official Restic Knights banner colour of bandaid.
Very interesting for fans of the old vinyl kits. If you ever get round to fooling around with that stuff, it would be greatly appreciated if could follow your endeavours 
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