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I'm going to start of by saying that I like the possessed. I think they are a tad expensive, not outragously given what your paying for: +1 S, 5++ save, fearless, cheaper champ ect.
Part of that being the random power, which I've heard is what people take issue with. The powers are all beneficial in almost any situation. At the very least (rolling scout) they get to the enemy faster, and hit pretty hard.
At the best, they carve up termies for grins and giggles. It may take a good bit of skill, but no matter what power they roll they have the same role and barring scout it shouldn't effect your over-all plan.
What I want to know is your stance on them and if you do use them, what the rest of your army is like (not an army list, just a quick summary).
I am a devote Nurgle follower, so at 1k points I use them in a transport to charge the enemy quickly, followed by a blob of Plague Marines (waiting for the Greater Daemon to come down) and both of which are distracting from Obliterators, Las Pred ect in the back. I try to make a 'damned if you do (shoot the possessed), damned if you don't (shoot the possessed).'

PS: I also use Dreads with some frequency, so I might just be nuts

Go my minions! Discuss!

Well, their random power is possibly the reason that you hardly see them at the battle field.
There are better choices out there like Cult Marines.

Possessed are not good. They are not good because they are not troops.

A comparison - a unit they might compete with for role/points: Khorne Berzerkers

10 berzerkers with Champ, powerfist, 2 plasma pistols is the same cost as 10 possessed with a champion - 270 points.

They're both fearless marines.

Possessed have +1 Str, and a random power
Berzerkers have +1 WS and furious charge, and a hidden fist.

Lets call the Str and the ws/fist a wash. I think the ws/fist is better but others may argue the other way. That leaves Furious Charge vs the random power.

1 in 6 chance of scouts - wasted power since you place them before you roll.

1 in 6 chance of furious charge - now we're just even.

The next 4 - Fleet, Rending, FNP, and Power weapons are all good. FNP and Power Weapons may be better than Furious Charge - Fleet and Rending are probably not, but Fleet could be in the right situations.

Lets say you have a 33% chance of getting something slightly bettter than Furious charge, a 33% chance of getting something the same, and a 33% chance of getting something worse or useless.

So...this would mean that possessed are as good as Khorne Berzerkers for their points, or at least not so much worse as to be unfieldable, right? Maybe...I may be giving them too much credit in this analysis but I sure would love to roll those power weapons...anyway the problem becomes that they can't control objectives. I can't see any reason in 5th edition NOT to take the troops choice when presented with two options that perform the same battlefield role comparably. If one of them isn't a troop, it stays home, unless I've already filled my 6 troops choices. Now when the other choice also has a random element that may screw me, I'm definitely leaving it home. I don't mind random (I've been playing with 2 Chaos Dreads), it can be fun, but it's not a good way to be competitive unless all the random options are good. For these guys, they're barely worth their points even if they roll the best option.

Lambadomy broke it down well.

Short answer: there are simply better choices in the codex.

Possessed suck.

Quote

Short answer: there are simply better choices in the codex.

Possessed suck.

End Quote

It's worth noting that these sentences aren't remotely connected. Berserkers may (or may not, I'm unpersuaded by Lamb's analysis, not factoring in the 5+ invul save on the possessed is the mark of someone who's never played them) be better than Possessed, but the notion that something sucks is not related in any way to there being other, better choices in the dex. Destroyers are better than Immortals, but that doesn't mean Immortals suck.

As to the central notion, that Berserkers can do what Possessed can do and also hold objectives, that's silly. Berserkers and possessed are assault troops. They don't hold objectives, they obliterate the foe. You expect them to get ground up in counter charges and counter-rapid fires. The guys in the second wave hold the objectives.

CSM codexes derive their strength from fearless MEQ's in a rhino. With the exception of CSM's themselves, its hard to do this wrong. If you prefer to put in a unit of possessed, it won't necessarily hurt you list.

The basic modern competative CSM list looks like this:

4 rhinos (with combi meltas) full of Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Noise Marines or Possessed
A strong Heavy Support contingent (6-9 oblits, or 2-3 Vindicators or 1-3 Defilers, or a mix thereof)
2 Lash Sorcerers

You can weaken the HS and grab some daemons, or change one of the Sorcerers out for a Prince, or drop some HS for a Land Raider and one of your squads for a Terminator unit without weakening it too much.

Two things wrong with your comparison
one, you missed the 5+ invul save which is prety huge for a whole unit.
two, rending is leaps and bounds better than furious charge.
after hits furious charge adds a +1/6 wound where rending changes 1/6 of the hits into power weapon wounds. Iniative only matters when facing oponents that do significant damage at initiative 4 or 5 (and by significant I mean more than 3 meq kills)

if you really want to compare them to something compare then to termies. Everybody is weak when compared to termies (bezerkers are downright trash compared to termies)

Possessed arent bad, there are just better choices.

Possessed Champions are great vessels for Greater Daemons, and while their Daemonkin rules are random, you always get a rule and they synergize well in conjunction with Icons. The Icons, of course, are great for summoning Lesser Daemons off of.

I'd suggest putting them in a Possessed Land Raider with a Sorcerer, making sure that they have a Champion and an Icon. Include a Greater Daemon and Lesser Daemons. Drive them straight up the middle and enjoy.

Who cares if they can't hold objectives? They can't shoot, so having them sit on their butts is a waste. But they can bring Lesser Daemons in on objectives to do that capturing. The masses of cheap Lesser Daemons are also handy for Daemon bombing on the assault, though less so that with Bikers.

They actually gel quite nicely with a Sorcerer of Slaanesh, since he's not going to waste their shooting where he directs his Lash of Submission, and he's great for dragging them units into charge range. Their Invulnerable saves help preserve him from plasma-induced carnage, and their Fearlessness prevents him from legging it. Give him the Gift of Chaos or Warptime, and he'll have a power to make life miserable for anyone that manages to resist a charge.

Yes, my fluff centers around using daemons. Rolling scout is almost more beneficial in my army than any other power, because they will get 24" across the board on turn 1. Carrying an Icon of Nurgle and a champion, with a Greater Daemon and a squad or 2 of lessers, means that they will take quite a bit of punishment (Smoked Rhino, T5, 3+ save, and 5++ means SOMEONE will survive for summoning). Most people have heard us whining about possessed and so long as I don't charge them into the middle of everyone his army, I can pop a sizable force on them out of nowhere.

It's worth noting that these sentences aren't remotely connected. Berserkers may (or may not, I'm unpersuaded by Lamb's analysis, not factoring in the 5+ invul save on the possessed is the mark of someone who's never played them) be better than Possessed, but the notion that something sucks is not related in any way to there being other, better choices in the dex. Destroyers are better than Immortals, but that doesn't mean Immortals suck.

That is actually a good point, I may have been a bit harsh in my assesment of them. There are better choices in the dex I feel without question, which by compairson makes them a less optimal choice, but considering I do not actually play Chaos Marines (only against them frequently) then my opinion is of less value than someone who actually plays the army. Perhaps there are uses for them, I just would not include them in a chaos list I was making in any circumstances that I can think of. Cult troops just offer more.

As for Beserkers never scoring, that is definitely off. If you have a squad in your opponants backfield late game and an objective is nearby, you jump on it, not charge another squad. Beserkers having the option to score is certainly an asset over possessed who can not.

DarkHound wrote:Yes, my fluff centers around using daemons. Rolling scout is almost more beneficial in my army than any other power, because they will get 24" across the board on turn 1. Carrying an Icon of Nurgle and a champion, with a Greater Daemon and a squad or 2 of lessers, means that they will take quite a bit of punishment (Smoked Rhino, T5, 3+ save, and 5++ means SOMEONE will survive for summoning). Most people have heard us whining about possessed and so long as I don't charge them into the middle of everyone his army, I can pop a sizable force on them out of nowhere.

You know when scout movements happen right?

Likewise, assault someone with Possessed does not risk a valuable Troop slot like assaulting with Berzerkers does.

A Possessed Champion is certainly cheaper as a host for a Greater Daemon. In addition, Possessed will resist power weapons and AP3- weaponry better than Berzerkers, making them better as an anchor unit for Deep Strike units like Lesser Daemons, Terminators, and Obliterators.

Anyone else actually use possessed (or have at one point with the new dex)? I imagined this as a bit more of a strat sharing thread

Also, at Typeline, yes. 12" move for scout, then 12" move in your movement phase.

One of the guys at my flgs uses possessed almost exclusively and he loves them. I have yet to actually fight him lol. From what I've seen, they're dead 'ard regardless of what Daemonkin result they get.

Do you know what the rest of his army is like (or atleast what God they worship) or any tactics? I don't use them as much as it sounds like he does, so this I'd love to hear.

He's pretty undivided from what I've seen (he uses Berzerkers and is currently making some Noise Marines). He has a Termie Sorc leading his army (Tzeentchian I believe). And from what I've seen he footslogs it with both his Berzerkers and Possessed. He doesn't believe in Rhinos it seems.

DarkHound wrote:Also, at Typeline, yes. 12" move for scout, then 12" move in your movement phase.

Actually, Possessed are Infantry, so they only have a 6" movement value, so it would be a 6" scout move, and then a 6" move in the movement phase.

MinMax:

He knows that. He's thinking of using their Scout move in their dedicated transport Rhino.

Incidentally, scouts may make a normal move after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, and must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

Whoops I guess I forgot to mention I use them in a rhino. Sorry for that.

EDIT: Nurglitch got to that first. Has anyone else used possessed? How about hypothedical tactics given what's been presented?

Hmm, now I'm starting to fathom shoving Huron in a LR with some Possessed. Mmmm.

Only question is; would it kill the Red Corsairs theme?

Not trying to derail the thread.

Thread is going well, I don't think that'd kill Red Corsairs fluff so long as they are not given an Icon. I have to ask, why Huron?

He leads the Red Corsairs (he kinda has to be there in a Red Corsairs list) and he's got some good punch in CC, with the ability to fire off a heavy flamer beforehand and the ability to choose between a Power fist and a Power weapon. He's also got his Warptime power for those tough enemies. All in all, he's pretty good. Now with those Possessed, they can murder most units in CC, with lots of attacks to make your opponent fail saves. If they roll a 6 for Daemonkin...oh my.

i was actually thinking about this for a CSM army. a possessed heavy army. dunno how that will go competitively though. but it may be lovely to look at the table top. What is an optical icon to bring for them?

Any Icon helps the possessed. Just use whatever you feel would help your fluff. Tzeentch makes them able to be played more recklessly, Slaanesh lets you shred anything but Gene Stealers, Khorne puts your opponent into a coma should you roll a 6 and Nurgle... well, S5 T5 3+ sv speaks for itself. Khorne feels like a waste though, as it doesn't really give them a particular edge. For you Enmitee, if you make them Slaaneshi, a Lash Sorc will feel less cheesy if you take heavy Possessed and let you pull noobs into your charge or kill IC's.

hmm im loving the 4+ invul idea. but yeah, i love the slaanesh/tzeentch theme because they love underhanded tactics in away.

Yeah, lash sorc, lashing the enemy into possessed instead of a beserkers makes for a fluffy list.

If you like possessed, use them. If you don't like them, don't use them. If you don't know how to use them, or how to use them well, then there are better choices that are more cost effective and tactically forgiving in the codex to take.

I'd also like to point out that possessed are elites, and so it's not entirely fair to compare them to troops. While bezerkers are also strong assault soldiers, they fundamental fulfill a different battlefield role. Possessed should only be compared to terminators or chosen, since it is these other elite choices that they must compete with. If you take possessed instead of a troops choice, then you are putting yourself at a tactical disadvantage.

troops=scoring units
elites=shock troops/specialized battlefield roles

Possesed = Laughing stock in the elite section in the chaos codex.

If you dont belive the analasys people put up on them look at what armies do good in tournaments. Or just compare them yourself with a little bit of mathematics.

Well, your opponent knows that you've got that Rhino full of possessed (which are dangerous and die to mass infantry fire just as fast as normal marines which cost 11 less points each.)

If you somehow get scouting, that'll probably emphasize that one rhino is full of expensive marines who he can just blow up.

If you get one of the other powers, you've got a long way to go to combat, and a smart opponent is going to plan accordingly.

A 5+ invuln. isn't very big. It's tiny compared to feel no pain. Which you won't have 5/6th of the time. That time when you do have FNP, you'll be lacking extra speed or initiative or the ability to cut through armor. Etc etc.

The problem with possessed is they're so expensive, and each power is gonna leave you with several downsides.

Things quite common for possessed and which must be taken into account
1) No anti-tank ability. The vast majority of games, they can't scratch a dreadnaught at all. If your opponent plops some ironclad dreads into this squad the squad is toast and hasn't accomplished anything.
2) No harder to kill using the majority of guns. Bolters, Shootas, Lasguns, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, etc. The majority of armies can treat these guys like they're those 3+ invulnerable terminators, and fire massed guns on them. 1/3rd of wounds will kill a possessed, and with possessed costing 26+ points each, good points return.
3) No armor-piercing ability. 4 out of 6 special abilities don't allow you to pierce armor. This means that 3+ and particularly 2+ armor saves will do lots of damage. A SM Termie AS would decimate Possessed. 2+ save against anything except rending/power weapon, 3+ save against rending/power weapon. If you're going to argue that mostly your squad'll be attacking Tactical Marines which suck at melee, then Noise Marines or Plague Marines or Berserkers can rape tactical marines in combat, For Much Cheaper!
4) Do not possess frag or krak grenades or any option to take them. This means they will attack last against terrain. That's pretty sucky for "shock troops"
5) Don't possess any shooting ability. So if they don't want to charge in that forest full of melee-ork nobz, they can't do any damage. Even berserkers have 1 pistol each to be taken into account shooting and then charging in. Noise Marines used for offensive power have extremely good shooting. 3 Shots standing still, 2 shoots while moving, and then can get 3 attacks afterwards on the charge. That's 3 + 5 = 8 attacks in 2 turns instead of possessed getting a total of 0 + 3 attacks each in 2 turns (one standing still, two charging. etc.)
6) Not troops and unable to score objectives etc. With objectives being the difference between winning and losing, this matters.
7) Completely random. Generally, the less randomness involved, the better something is strategically. All results are not good in all situations. The majority are useless in many, many situations. Furious Charge is useless when your opponent knows you rolled it and then blasts your possessed unit dead before you get into a single combat. Same with power weapons. Scouts won't help you when your opponent on his turn drives an attack bike over and blows up your possessed rhino instantly. Feel No Pain won't do anything against an enemy terminator squad which is insta-deathing every wound and gets 2+ armor saves against every of your attacks.
8) Expensive, expensive, expensive. An Ork Boy w/ 4 S4 attacks on the charge costs 6 points. He could get 4 Boyz for 1 possessed marine and have points left over. That's 16 attacks on the charge compared to 3 attacks on the charge.

When you look at how likely it is that possessed will be powerless against armor (Dreadnaughts, etc.) and Terminators or swarms of cost-effective infantry (2 Squads of 20-ish Ork Boyz w/ Nob champion Powerfister for cost of 1 squad of 10-possessed in a rhino.) you start to realize that there are better options out there for most any job.

Against hordes of fodder like Imperial Guard infantry or ork troops? Noise Marines or Berserkers or Plague Marines or regular CSM are generally superior point-for-point than possessed.

Against elite tough-things? Terminators w/ some S8 attacks and some armor-piercing attacks will do better. Berserkers with a Champion who gets multiple S9 attacks will do better. Chosen with some S8 attacks guaranteed that pierce armor will do better.

Possessed carry a big "shoot me" sign, but lack the 2+ armor save or FNP to make up for it. If you do get FNP/scout/Fleet ones, they're pretty sucky. They're just S5 like charging Berserkers, except lower initiative and lacking all of those 4 S9 powerfist attacks on the charge that can instant-kill biker lords or put hurt on a wraithlord.

The only thing that could possibly redeem Possessed would be if their champion could take a powerfist or some sort of dangerous weapon by default, but he can't. When you put roll for their power at the start of the game, your opponent is finding out the only thing they're good for right away. That puts him one step ahead of you. If he finds out they have power weapons, your opponent can use strategy to make sure you don't use them against anything with a 2+ save. He can just murder them with mobs of troopers or a vehicle.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:If you like possessed, use them. If you don't like them, don't use them. If you don't know how to use them, or how to use them well, then there are better choices that are more cost effective and tactically forgiving in the codex to take.

I'd also like to point out that possessed are elites, and so it's not entirely fair to compare them to troops. While bezerkers are also strong assault soldiers, they fundamental fulfill a different battlefield role. Possessed should only be compared to terminators or chosen, since it is these other elite choices that they must compete with. If you take possessed instead of a troops choice, then you are putting yourself at a tactical disadvantage.

troops=scoring units
elites=shock troops/specialized battlefield roles

I have to disagree.

You don't judge a unit by his force organization slot UNLESS he's preventing you to use something which would be better. That is the ONLY time that Force Organization slot means diddly squat.

If you had 3 types of elites which were all horribly bad, but your troops were strong and your FA were strong and your heavy choices were strong, a SMART commander would use 0 elites in that case. Why? Because every element is compared to all possible elements which can be brought to battle.

Most players have spare troops slots open and spare elites slots open, so the Force chart generally has nothing to do with the possessed discussion at all.

It is ENTIRELY fair to compare a unit of elites to a unit of troops.

If your elite squad of guard-veterans cannot do any job that regular guard-troopers can't do, and costs more points, that means they are weak.

ANY unit can be analyzed based on its stats bar, its weapon options, its possible upgrades, its points value, etc. That's how codices are made and used.

The whole "you can't compare em cuz they're different" thing is silly. That's saying that one unit cannot be stronger than another unit. The fact possessed lack 4 S9 attacks on the charge while berserkers get those makes it clear that possessed are not globally superior at "shock trooping"

I tried Possessed in my army and gave them up after two battles.

Here's what happened in both battles.

1) Got "Dawn of War" deployment, so couldn't put Possessed on table.
2) Rolled "Scout" for the ability.

Since they aren't on the board, they don't get their scout move. Furthermore, since their power was rolled for after deployment they also didn't get to Outflank.

Completely useless extra power. Wow...I'm so glad I paid so much for each model.

TheBloodGod wrote: 1) No anti-tank ability. The vast majority of games, they can't scratch a dreadnaught at all. If your opponent plops some ironclad dreads into this squad the squad is toast and hasn't accomplished anything.

They're not killing walkers, but they can destroy other kinds of vehicles in CC with their S5.

TheBloodGod wrote:4) Do not possess frag or krak grenades or any option to take them. This means they will attack last against terrain. That's pretty sucky for "shock troops"

Sticking your Lord (or any of your HQs at that) in that squad will null that.

TheBloodGod wrote:5) Don't possess any shooting ability. So if they don't want to charge in that forest full of melee-ork nobz, they can't do any damage. Even berserkers have 1 pistol each to be taken into account shooting and then charging in.

That can be a good thing, as there IS such a thing as killing too many.

TheBloodGod wrote:6) Not troops and unable to score objectives etc. With objectives being the difference between winning and losing, this matters.

But they CAN contest, that can really turn the game in your favor.

TheBloodGod wrote:7) Completely random. Generally, the less randomness involved, the better something is strategically.

Some people enjoy that.

TheBloodGod wrote:Possessed carry a big "shoot me" sign, but lack the 2+ armor save or FNP to make up for it. If you do get FNP/scout/Fleet ones, they're pretty sucky.

Well they obviously can't work if they're not invincible like you want them.

TheBloodGod wrote:That puts him one step ahead of you. If he finds out they have power weapons, your opponent can use strategy to make sure you don't use them against anything with a 2+ save.

Taking into account the amount of 2+ saves you've made reference to, I can see what kinds of armies you play...