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I recently got a PM about my statement:

Sanctjud wrote:
Possessed, as I see it, have done amazingly well at counter attack 5/6 of the time, any power will do well for them. Then the 1/6 of the time they get scouts, they get distraction duty.
Seriously, most people are like "you can't plan for them"/"they are too random"... it's just a negatibve point of view.
For better or for worse, their lack of options and combat only orientation makes them easy to use, there is less opputunity cost with respect to where they are deployed and what they do to try and get into combat.

Now everyone compares them to Berzerkers which is fine if you're willing to run Cult units but in my army I'm only Undivided so my choices for dedicated assault units are limited to Possessed or Terminators.
Now Terminators are useful for deepstriking but I don't want to spend the money+points on buying them a Land Raider which I feel they'd need for a true assault unit.
Possessed on the other hand can work just fine from a Rhino. As you said, people don't like the random abilities but it doesn't seem like it would make a big difference in how you're going to use them. They assault things, thats all they can do. Their powers might dictate what kind of targets they'll go after (Rending = Walkers, FnP = horde etc) but thats it.

So what have you found out either from playing them or from fighting them (which rarely happens I'm sure).

Right, this comes up every so often, and I didn’t want to waste the opportunity to beat a dead horse.
So… lets approach this from a half full perspective rather than a half empty.

First thing’s first:
Cost, yes, there is no argument. They are very expensive. Not necessarily for what you get, but are costly enough that it makes the opportunity cost relevant.
Many who are Possessed haters highlight this point.

Which brings us to the comparison part.
People will refer to Zerkers and Termies.

One thing to keep in mind is that they are different units for different roles. They blend in many areas, but are entirely different units and are handled differently.
(As an aside to reply to the OP you can count as anything so zerkers are fine if you need them).

Zerkers are scoring, a huge leg up.
They also have pistols and a consistent statline.
Everything about them screams sledge hammer.
Cheap too.
No contest here if you want a wrecker you go for zerkers.

The point with Termies is that they are cost similarly and have better durability and standard power weapons and offer a more shooty platform.

So.
Zerkers are combat monsters best taking on dug in defenders, rhinos included of course.
Termies are there for pin point (icon+Deepstrike, or just regular deepstrike) special weapon delivery and secondary bullies in combat.

Where does it leave the Possessed?
They are in the middle ground. They are combatty, have the inv save, get into a rhino. They lose out on ranged weapons, scoring status and other things like grenades importantly.
So they are a hybrid unit a little from each… to some extent a little from every troop choice as well. So you have to expect to pay a bit more for a hybrid unit (maybe not as much as GW has done, but it shouldn’t be too suprising).

Termies’ role is to shoot then follow up assault.
Zerkers are to assault fortified positions (mainly).
This leaves possessed in their ideal role of counter assaulting.
(I have preached that Zerkers in a 8 man squad with a power weapon can do this as well, but for some that it is a bit wasted potential).

Possessed IMO scream counter assault, why?
-Access to a Rhino for that 15” range of counter charge (from an unmoved rhino).
-Low Threat rating, unlikely to be shot at.
-Lack of grenades (weird for a combat unit, but doesn’t lose out on anything if they are counter attacking.)
-5/6 of the Daemonking table support them in this role.
*Fleet:16” to 21” counter charge range, they extend their area of influence. (Borrows form the raptors I guess)
*Furious Charge: works well with a unit that’s tasked with charging stuff and str 6 is scarey for GEQ and vehicles alike. (mimicking Zerkers).
*Rending: for a unit that will most certainly charge at every moment, it maximizes the number of attacks and is general enough to do anti-walker, though still ideal.(loosely like the inferno bolts offensive power, not very consistant)
*FNP: These mean they are a sort of Tarpit, but it makes sure the combat results are in their favor, and that they get to where they need to be. (homage to Grandfather Nurgle)
*Power Weapons: Looks like terminators, esp. with the inv save and makes these the answer in the question of who finishes a combat on top….cause str 5 power weapons (arguably adds one attack) will do a lot of damage over just termies.

Basically you get a sprinkle of everything at any given time.
It gives you different/alternate options.
They are ‘expendable’ due to non-scoring status. (Make no mistake, scoring is still a good thing they are missing out on) They go after stuff that may not be where the objectives are.

To me, the ‘best’ way to run them is:
8 Possessed in a Rhino.243 points. They are cost the average cost of the normal units people take like 10 CSM, 2 melta, Fist, IoCG, Rhino; 7 PM’s, 2 meltas, Fist, Rhino; 8 Zerkers, Fist, Rhino.
So there is that opportunity cost.

Those 8 means it’s ‘just right’ in terms of numbers:points ratio.
If you have the spare points, whatever Icon.
I personally feel the defensive icons are too expensive, while the offensive ones are barely priced well enough, but that’s an icon system issue.

I would set them up to the side of the main rhino wall and press go.

If scouts is rolled, they change their role, Distraction as described at the very top.
24” move into the enemy deployment zone if you get First Turn will get a lot of attention. In which case nobody wants that kind of combat unit in their lines, no matter how overpriced they are.
Their total reach after 2 turns is 24”+15”(no fleet)= 39”. Zerkers in a rhino can only match that in 3 turns; Zerkers in a raide can almost match that.

Again the randomness comes into play. What will you get? You won’t know.
All you know is that 5/6 of the time they will be going after stuff that is lethal to your army but not necessarily leashed to an objective, or 1/6 of the time proving target saturation is key to success.
In addition, not knowing what you’ll get and yet your roles worked out makes the opponent unsure if they should dedicate anything at them.
For those who don’t experience possessed used well enough won’t fear them and let them act.

I would like to think it’s not the unit themselves, but the player that dictates how well a unit works.
I know I’ve been bashing on the Land Speeder Storm/scout combo, but I’m not saying they can’t do well, they can do wonders, but I don’t think it’s consistent.
The possessed are consistent in their role, no matter what you role, and you will know exactly what you will do with them no matter what you roll. The powers do not have to dictate 6 ways of using them,

Now a bit of background how I’ve used them. I won’t lie, I don’t use them for throw down games when others use “bend you over the chair and take you right then and there” lists. I do love my plague marines.

I’ve used possessed in this list:

Daemon Prince, upgradeless.
Bloodfeeder Lord on foot.
8 Possessed, IoCG, Rhino.
Dread w/ Multi-Melta.
8 Zerkers, Champion, 3 Plasma Pistols, Rhino.
7 Dust Buckets, Asp. Sorc, Bolt of Change, PIcon, Rhino.
8 Lesser Daemons.
5 Raptors, 2 Plasma Guns
3 Spawns.
1500, Crap Legion.

This is my ‘fun’ list that I had the pleasure of using for around 2-3 months. The idea was to take some ‘crappy’ units and see how they do.
What surprised me was that the Possessed and Spawn out did everything else in the list. (Special note: Dust Buckets still sucked very hard ).

The possessed did as I outlined above. They were never found wanting. Vs. Eldar, they were murderous.
Possessed (furious Charge)/Spawn tag team taking down Serpents and wrecking the squishies (Seer Council included).
Scouting Possessed into IG lines behind a line of sight blocking terrain? Cheese some cried.
Power weaponed Possessed getting into a building to have it destroyed and getting out on the other side in charge range of 2 necron warrior squads?

Usage is very important. It makes or breaks the unit when they are points-inefficient or have an air of stank like the possessed.
They offer a different variety of death dealing to the army and don’t hurt the points bank the way I go with them.

I have been writing this in sections at work, so it’s prob. not very smoothed out, but I just wanted to note my thoughts on possessed.
I don’t think they are as bad as some (and even I [when they first came out]) think they are.
________________----------

On a different note.
There are those that use them as a bodyguard assault unit with an IC in a Raider.
I don’t personally like this.
I do see why they can be desirable for the job: Fearless, Inv Save.
But lack of grenades, fist, wasting of 2 powers are huge issues I have with the unit used like this.
Now I if they work out for those players, Nurgle bless them. I’m just afraid they may get a worse image from doing poorly at that job.

To summarize: They are a highly functional unit. It’s not that they suck, it’s that other things look a lot more shinier.

-Access to a Rhino for that 15” range of counter charge.

Have you been playing that they can charge out of their rhino after it moves?

One thing I really dont like about possessed is their WS4.. In comparison to bezerkers, even though possessed have a 1/6 chance of getting there one turn faster, bezerkers do a lot more work once they get to combat. Honestly, the one thing they do have going for them is their cool models. Other than that, I'd rather not spend so many points on a unit that cannot be depended on to fulfill a specific role..

Counter Charge, needs not the rhino to move.
So... 2" disembark, 1" base size, 6" move, 6" assault = 15" effective range from an unmoved Rhino.

If I was suggesting charging out from a rhino, it would be a 12" move, 3" effective disembark, 6" charge which would be 21", a very different number from the one I had mentioned in my post.

But you are correct in that it was confusing, I will add a line into it saying what I had meant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ghastli:

What did I just describe.
They have one role 5/6 of the time and 1/6 of the time another. The first makes use of any of the 5/6 powers, while the later makes use of the 'speed' something you really can't get with Chaos elsewhere.

What I was stabbing at is that, it's a Point of View issue with Possessed. It's easy to miss their usefulness.

You rate pure offensive power is more important than 'getting there'.
What if you can't get there? What then.

Look at my last game with my bikers.
What if we had the situations where it was Scouting Possessed vs. Regular Joe Zerkers.
Those possessed would have climbed up to threat number one, adding pressure to my army and making me have less 'space' to move around.
Leading the way, would allow other options to move in un molested at the time.

At the end of the day, yes, different strokes for different folks, but I'm a little irked (as I've spent alot of time with the codex like others) when units are under valued... esp. after I threw my prejedices aside and actually worked with them to a point were they are sucessful... even spawn... but that's a different story .

@Sanctjud:

Now that I look at it I think they could fill the role of a semi-fluffy, counter-charge unit for my thousand son army. But as a counter-charge unit, is the scouts ability completely wasted on them? I don't think a distraction unit would do so well with the thousand sons..

Counter Charge, needs not the rhino to move.
So... 2" disembark, 1" base size, 6" move, 6" assault = 15" effective range from an unmoved Rhino.

If I was suggesting charging out from a rhino, it would be a 12" move, 3" effective disembark, 6" charge which would be 21", a very different number from the one I had mentioned in my post.

But you are correct in that it was confusing, I will add a line into it saying what I had meant.

See, I thought this was what you meant, and I'm not sure why you'd want to have a rhino in this scenario. A disembarked unit strung out to its 2" coherency will have a footprint on the table larger than a 3" deployment from the back or sides, so how does the transport help them charge farther?

It's a disruption unit.
It makes the enemey stay back and deal with it while TS continue shooting them.

There is no profit there?
I'm saying you use what you get to the max, hence using the Scouts and powering forward.

The Dust Buckets (mech right?) will get one more rhino to where they need to as the opponent will most likely need to deal with the lead rhino first.

At least that's one way of looking at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Grankrobot:
I wasn't talking about 'sphere of influence' like stringing them out.
The point of having the rhino is that you get that additional 3" as opposed to a slogging squad, on top of the scout movement in that specific scenario.

Basically a rhino means an extra 3".

That is a valid point.. I'll give it a try and see how it does. How many would you put in a squad for a (you guessed it) tzeentch mech army, so they can effectively fulfill their role?

They work well aginst the new nids, High str, invon saves, chance to rend or PW, fearless, still points heavy, they are ok.

ghastli wrote:That is a valid point.. I'll give it a try and see how it does. How many would you put in a squad for a (you guessed it) tzeentch mech army, so they can effectively fulfill their role?

9 of course!

What I first see with Possessed is their base stats.
+1S means they can still destroy rear armor. It also means you can wound T6 units 2x as effectively as S4 can.
5++ save means they have some defense against MCs/PW and other anti-MEQ tools.
Fearless means they're not running anywhere and being tough to kill, they should keep most people busy for awhile.

My initial thought was simply to use Possessed always in the "distraction" role. Throw them at the enemy, make them appear scary and dangerous and suck up firepower from the rest of my army. Its one of the few units who'd have a Rhino that I'd consider buying E. Armor for but in this case, I want them to keep moving.

Sanctjud's counter-assault role is interesting I will admit.
I orginially PM'd Sanctjud because I already run 5+ scoring units in my army but I wanted something fun/fluffy and very Chaosy to add to my army. Competitively, Termicide would be better I think but it seems so common place nowadays.

Use them as a Daemon-summoning unit, or as an escort for a Sorcerer.

In the first case they get a dirt-cheap Champion into which you summon a Greater Daemon, and Icons ranging from dirt-cheap to expensive yet useful for summoning Lesser Daemons.

Then they can have a Rhino, 1/6 times they get a 12" Scout move in that Rhino, which gets the Daemons summoned much closer to the enemy line.

The Daemonkin rules combine very nicely with the Icon upgrades.

Regarding escorting a Sorcerer, they have no shooting to disrupt the Sorcerer's mojo (particularly with the Lash of Submission), allowing him to pick and choose targets without wasting firepower on un-lashed units. Secondly, they are Fearless, and thus confer it onto a cowardly Sorcerer. They're also good if the Sorcerer wishes to charge or gets charged, as they can fight in combat with the best of them. Okay, so they're boned against AV12 walkers, but one assumes a Warptimed Melta Bomb will go some way to remedying that.

They're not just for escorting Sorcerers though. You can fit nine in a Land Raider with Khärn and worry less about the occasional fratricide (1/3 less!) while Khärn's grenades allow the unit to assault stuff in cover.

I think their expendable nature is something that doesn't get covered enough: The problem with Berzerkers is that they suck at holding objectives. They're great with capturing them, but then whoever lost the objective can either charge them back and deny the Furious Charge, or simply shoot them up until they leave the objective to sort out whoever is shooting them up. Don't get me wrong, Berzerkers are great, but they make the objective game hard. Plus with Possessed you can use that Troop slot for more Chaos Space Marines.

Either way you use them, stick them front and centre in an army and shove them into your opponent's army where they belong.

Here is a thought.
How do Possessed compare to Lesser Daemons?

Both have a 5++ save so they're good against anti-MEQ units.
Both are Fearless assault units so they tarpit well.

For Possessed its +1S, 3+ save and Daemonkin.
For Lesser Daemons its the ability to assault when they arrive, 2x the bodies and scoring status.

@Nurglitch:

You say that you'd rather use a troop slot for marines over bezerkers.. Do you honestly have six full troop slots? Being able to take six troop choices makes it so you don't really have to pick bezerkers over more objective oriented marines. You could quite easily take both bezerkers and chaos marines in the same list.

@minigun762:

My experience with lesser daemons is that all they have is a 5+ save. Any amount of shooting, or more realistically, enough wounds in close combat will easily make them lose combat, and then they are killed by overflow. Their save (or lack thereof) makes them not such a great choice for a tarpit unit.

ghastli:

Whether its one Troop slot or six, Chaos Space Marines are still better at holding objectives.

Lesser Daemons are a lousy 'tarpit' unit for the reasons covered, but a couple of large hordes (20 Daemons strong) can do some damage, and a couple of small ones make for cheap objective campers. But its the former I'm talking about in relation to the Possessed. Scout a Rhino worth of Lesser Daemons 12" forward, then 6" for the summoning, and then 6" on the charge.

Possessed and Lesser Daemons are a little shifty. On paper, lesser daemons look really good because of various reasons. However, the four times I've used them, they did nothing for me because they don't have grenades, they only have a 5+ save, and if they get out of their one-hit-wonder charge, they get mowed or charged and end up dying. For the 260 points that 20 lesser daemons cost, I'd rather have a squad of marines in a rhino.

I use a squad of 20.
They do real fine, true underdogs.

They hold objectives well enough (if they have to), kill in combat well enough, tarpit well enough.

It's not as short as Nurglitch has described.
It's, 12" forward from a rhino, then 6" for the first model, which has a 1" base over the 6", then (20 man has 2 rings, so) 2" for the rings, then 6" charge.
For a total of 27" across the board from the edge of the deployment zone on turn 2.
That's 3" into the enemy deployment zone.

That's if the squad hasn't disembarked out front. (which could be suicidal, but it can get 3 more inces).

And yea, Scouting icon into the enemy turn 2 is crazy good, alluding back to the game with an IG playing crying cheese on possessed (with some help with lesser daemons.)
__________________

As for Lessers vs. Possessed.
The lessers are more about spamming and overwhelming the opponent, but needs icon support.
Possessed are alot more self-sufficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ghastli wrote:Possessed and Lesser Daemons are a little shifty. On paper, lesser daemons look really good because of various reasons. However, the four times I've used them, they did nothing for me because they don't have grenades, they only have a 5+ save, and if they get out of their one-hit-wonder charge, they get mowed or charged and end up dying. For the 260 points that 20 lesser daemons cost, I'd rather have a squad of marines in a rhino.

From what I remember most people were of the opposite opinion of the lesser daemons when they came out.
5++ is decent when you get 2times the bodies. It means you are guarented a save unless you are dealing with psycannon/incinerators/warscythes/C'tan. Hell, cover saves are of more benefit to them than others.
It depends on what they charge.

I remember using 60 of them in this one game vs. ork hordes, taking the charge away from them and managing two round assaults to catch another before their charge is BRUTAL.
The lack of grenades isn't a huge problem if you are packing the numbers, else, you have another counter charge element where you need it when the possessed are busy or on the other side of the board.

Again, whatever floats your boat. I'm just pushing the point that others have looked the other direction and have liked what they saw and have used possessed (and now Lesser daemons ) effectively.
Much like those threads supporting the Storms..../sigh.
I rather like the 20 man Lesser daemons, and would not want 'another' 10 man CSM squad with special weapons cookie-cutter awesome-sauce we all know-own-use-and see everyday...

They are all functional units.
What's next spawn?

I don't like the lack of control you have over lesser daemons. You have to rely on a lucky reserves roll to get them to come down when you want. Yeah, you can work with pretty much whatever roll you get because of the icons, but I would rather be able to plan rather than have to react to a random dice roll. There aren't really any averages or math you can really plan for either so you're stuck with reacting to the dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well you have made some good points but I think more chaos marines floats my boat. Yeah I know they are used a lot but I find them dependable.

Something to consider about using troops without assault grenades is that troops that have gone to ground lose the Initiative bonus for being assaulted across difficult ground.

The Chaos Space Marines have access to several pinning weapons, including the Lash of Submission, the Blastmaster, and something else that's slipped my mind. You can also force people to go to ground voluntarily in the hope of shutting down your shooting phase.

As for Possessed vs Lesser Daemons, its their combination that I'm trying to point to here!

Generally, later is better.
Even if you come in early, provided you moved as far ahead as possible, it won't be bad if you run 20 man squads.
Worse case scenario you run the squad into cover and move on from there.
They create a dense concentration of your forces where you want it, creating an uneven distribution of force, which is what wins games IMO.

At most it's reacting to the die, by the time you deploy you should reallly know where your army is going to end up anyway.
So you'll know where what is and where are the most likely entrance points are for the lesser daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Nurglitch:
It's a nice combo Possessed and Lesser daemons.
Crap Legion will back up that statement .

And usually I'd rant here, but honestly Sanctjud and especially Nurglitch have covered basically anything I'd say. I'm just going to weigh in (however little that is actually worth) that the combination of Possessed and Lesser/Greater Daemons are the primarly motivator and stars of my army. The army I use to trash my gaming club.

Nurglitch wrote:Something to consider about using troops without assault grenades is that troops that have gone to ground lose the Initiative bonus for being assaulted across difficult ground.

The Chaos Space Marines have access to several pinning weapons, including the Lash of Submission, the Blastmaster, and something else that's slipped my mind. You can also force people to go to ground voluntarily in the hope of shutting down your shooting phase.

As for Possessed vs Lesser Daemons, its their combination that I'm trying to point to here!

That is an idea that I honestly never thought of.. I'm gonna have to give that a go, it sounds good.

Way to go Nurglitch for looking at the cup half full.
I've missed that as well.

Sanctjud wrote:
Again, whatever floats your boat. I'm just pushing the point that others have looked the other direction and have liked what they saw and have used possessed (and now Lesser daemons ) effectively.
Much like those threads supporting the Storms..../sigh.
I rather like the 20 man Lesser daemons, and would not want 'another' 10 man CSM squad with special weapons cookie-cutter awesome-sauce we all know-own-use-and see everyday...

Agreed. We all know that CSMs + Rhino + dual specials = awesome, but sometimes we want something fluffy or fun or just plain different.

As for Possessed, what are the prime targets for them you think?

T3 units seem like great choices, constantly wounding on 2's is nice. On the flip side, wounding T6 on 5's is twice as good as S4 and you don't have to rely on getting the charge in like Berzerkers.
WS3 or less they're hitting on 3's and WS5 you're hitting on 4's just like a Berzerker would be.

minigun762 wrote:As for Possessed, what are the prime targets for them you think?

T3 units seem like great choices, constantly wounding on 2's is nice. On the flip side, wounding T6 on 5's is twice as good as S4 and you don't have to rely on getting the charge in like Berzerkers.
WS3 or less they're hitting on 3's and WS5 you're hitting on 4's just like a Berzerker would be.

It entirely depends on what power you roll. I run mine 7 man with IoN: FnP seals the fate of nearly any horde. Power Weapons makes them can openers. I like to put them on tank hunting duty when Furious Charge comes up, actually.

DarkHound wrote:It entirely depends on what power you roll. I run mine 7 man with IoN: FnP seals the fate of nearly any horde. Power Weapons makes them can openers. I like to put them on tank hunting duty when Furious Charge comes up, actually.

So you'd want until after you saw what ability to get to decide the most appropriate target?
It makes sense to do it that way as long as you don't lose track of what you're trying to do with them on the table.
For example, even if I rolled FnP, it still might be best to send them to block those incoming Banshees because they will suffer less then my CSMs will.

Yes, exactly. However, the way I use Possessed demands the rest of my army be competant in countering any threat by itself. My army has counter-assault units built in (MSU Lessers and Greater), so the Possessed are pretty much free to hunt whatever they are suited for at the moment.

On a side note, I loooove it when my Possessed square off against Banshees. T5 is worth every point.

Sanctjud wrote:As for Lessers vs. Possessed.
The lessers are more about spamming and overwhelming the opponent, but needs icon support.
Possessed are alot more self-sufficient.

I rather like the 20 man Lesser daemons, and would not want 'another' 10 man CSM squad with special weapons cookie-cutter awesome-sauce we all know-own-use-and see everyday...

With that in mind, what would be more helpful in a typical "all-comers/balanced" CSM list?
20 LD's (260 points) or 9 Possessed in a Rhino (269 points)?

That depends on what else you have in the army, of course.

Nurglitch wrote:That depends on what else you have in the army, of course.

Thats a perfectly reasonable answer to a question. What is it doing on the internets?

In my case, its something like:
Winged DP
5 x CSM squads in Rhinos (Melta/Fist + Plasma squads)
2 x Defilers

I would love to see Posessed in a Chaos List.

Across the table from me.

At a tournament.

I feel the need to remind everyone that, after upgrades and transports, we're talking about a 300 point non-scoring slow assault unit that can do absolutely nothing to armor and opens up the welcome mat for a Walker to wade in and make itself right at home forever.

If this unit was in the Tau codex, okay, it has a role and is a necessary evil. But it's not, it's in the CSM 'dex, in which practically every single model can fight like an assault marine or better.

Chaos lists don't need more guys that can throw punches. Fast or long range anti-tank, yes, a dedicated assault unit with no grenades that can't outfight many other codices' dedicated assault units and dies to bolters and flamers as badly as models with price tags 5-10 points lower, no.

They need either "something else" to give them duality or utility, or to be such a far and away superior assault unit (WS5, grenades, and an extra ability) that their points cost is justified.

The cup is half full, but it's half full of sand.