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Okay so I have been playing a lot of games on Vassal. I have yet to lose a single game, and have given up only 1 draw (against BA pred/razorspam).

The only army that I have yet to play is Mechvets. I've won numerous games against Tau, Marines, SW, BA, CSM, Nids.

This list is working so well that I'm thinking it will be my Tourny list once I finish painting it up.

HQ Succubus Agonizer, blast pistol 100
Elite Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, blast pistol, 1x shardnet + impaler, 2x razorflail, raider 252
Elites Trueborn x4 4x Blaster, venom, 2nd splinter cannon 173
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Warriors x10 splinter cannon, raider, flickerfield 170
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

1500

I've seen a lot of people put the same Wych weapon in a unit, like 2x shardnets or 2x hydra gauntlets. I've found taking a single shardnet is best so you can put it on the SGT of the enemy squad, while still getting your offensive boost from the remaining one.

I've also seen many reviewers completely pass over Bloodbrides. This is a mistake. The Succ + Bloodbrides form a premiere assault unit. They kill Demon princes, Nid MCs - anything really. I found they needed some anti-vehicle at times so they got 2 blast pistols in case a transport needs to be opened. I seldom miss flickerfields on the raiders for the wychs since they move flat out until they are in range.

Simply put, this list seems to be boss. Anyone else had this kind of success with their new DE list?

Anyone got ideas for further improving it?

HQ Succubus Agonizer, blast pistol 100
Elite Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, blast pistol, 1x shardnet + impaler, 2x razorflail, raider 252
Elites Trueborn x4 4x Blaster, venom, 2nd splinter cannon 173
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Warriors x10 splinter cannon, raider, flickerfield 170
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

Well, Ravagers would benefit from night shields,
a Succubus is inferior to an Archon but more fluffy in a Wych cult, and
Bloodbrides are worse than Wyches when you consider the trade-off between costs and effectiveness.

Thanks for regurgitating common internet wisdom.

What about a succubus makes her inferior? How would you make an archon superior for the same point cost?

Why are bloodbrides inferior to normal wychs? You should explain your opinion rather than just present it as fact.

I agree on the nightshields, but I don't have the points for them @ 1500. It doesn't help to suggest adding thing to a list without also saying where the points can be taken from.

Thanks for regurgitating common internet wisdom.

Common wisdom? Not sure if you know how to play DE. Most players do not.
I play them since 2002 and won several tourneys with them.

Yea you're right, I don't know how to play them. Its been dumb luck that I haven't lost with this list yet.

If anyone wants to give suggestions and explain them, I'd be very appreciative. As you can see, simply regurgitating common internet wisdom is not what I'm looking for...

wuestenfux wrote:

Thanks for regurgitating common internet wisdom.

Common wisdom? Not sure if you know how to play DE. Most players do not.
I play them since 2002 and won several tourneys with them.

@wuestenfux- No disrespect but having won with DE since 2002 doesnt mean a whole lot, the army has pretty much been completely re-written now.

That said, alot of the advice you give is sound and can be very helpful. I think the OP has a point though, for the points, the Archon you'd get for 100 points wouldn't be the best choice.

@Dracos- I'd suggest nightshields are a better bet than flickerfields on the Ravagers, range is a better defence than a 5+ inv, if they cant hit you, your safe.
I'd also suggest swapping out the hydra gauntlets for razor flails, I know on paper +D6 attacks looks good, but in practice (as I was told last week by wuestenfux and have since found out myself), its not that reliable.

Humm NS over flicker is an interesting suggestion. While I have thought about it before, I figured the save would come in handy more often. Lots of stuff that scares me has a 48" range, so reducing that to 42" doesn't help that much. At least, that was my rational. Then again, flicker is a very unreliable upgrade. Perhaps the flicker promotes bad play with the vehicles and the reliability of the NS trumps the FF with proper play.

Okay that swap is worth trying out.

Hydra gauntlets are not reliable. However, I don't intend to take on high T critters with the normal wychs - thats what the bloodbrides are there for. If you mathhammer out the Hydra gauntlets, especially with most of the drug bonuses, you'll find that wychs average better with the Hydra gauntlets. Bloodbrides do better with razorflails due to their +1 A base.

Dracos wrote: I don't intend to take on high T critters with the normal wychs - thats what the bloodbrides are there for. If you mathhammer out the Hydra gauntlets, especially with most of the drug bonuses, you'll find that wychs average better with the Hydra gauntlets. Bloodbrides do better with razorflails due to their +1 A base.

Surely thats what the Warriors are for rather than bloodbrides?

re the mathhammer: a single wych with flails will make 1.25 wounds Vs models with T4 and the same WS. A single wytch with hydra's only exceded that average if they roll a 6 for the number of attacks (1.3 wounds) when fighting the same opponent (rolling a 5 averages 1.17 wounds). The potential damage of hydras is far higher, but on average flails are the better choice. I cba to go into all the drugs roll's and how furious charge would effect it, but off the bat, Razorflails are better.

Challenge accepted: Full analysis on Hydra Gauntlet v Razorflails Inc


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Challenge completed

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/328226.page#2123357

See the link for math on Hydras vs Razorflails.

For wychs, its mostly a push favoring Razorflails slightly on average.. I think I'll stick with the Hydras given the type of opponents I want them to be fighting/normally send them after.

Not sure if I really laid down a challenge, but thanks for that Saves me the trouble of having to do it myself! Still didn't take into consideration the extra +1S from furious charge, but I'll save that for another day
Does that mean your list is sorted?

The Archon is better than the Succubus unless you really don't want to spend any points on your HQ. Nothing wrong with the Succubus though, they aren't that much worse. An Archon with Shadowfield, Agoniser and Drugs is 120pts vs the 100pts for the Succubus, loses 1 WS and I and the Blast Pistol and gets 5+ armour (not much admittedly) and +1 Ld, but most importantly is harder to kill thanks to the Shadowfield.

I agree about putting 1 Shardnet + 1 other weapon in a Wych unit, almost every squad is going to have 1 model which you can (and will want to) remove attacks from but you are unlikely to get much out of 2 Shardnets unless you are facing Elite infantry which won't happen as often. At the moment I'm planning on running Hydra Gauntlets as I'm taking the Duke (which you could consider as well actually), so should be able to get the re-rolls to wound or +1 S more often. Otherwise I think the Razorfails would be better.

Bloodbrides are a great unit to combine with an character of some kind, you can get all the upgrades with 9 models leaving space in the Raider for the character. I've been considering running a squad with 3 Shardnets and giving the Archon a Clonefield + character killing equipment so you can run into a character, drop them to 1-2 attacks and have the character ignore them with the Clonefield.

Imo Night Shields are better than Flickerfields in almost every situation. For backfield units like Ravangers it lets them avoid return fire very effectively, you can sit at 36" and they need 48" range to shoot you back. Also being further back providing fire support means you should be able to use terrain or the multitude of vehicles in front of you to get yourself 4+ cover anyway. For Raiders carrying assault units like Wyches (particularly if you have a character) you are likely to be going flat out early on so already get a 4+, and once you deliver the unit the Raider isn't that important. Even in closer Night Shields can be great, they let you avoid rapid fire type weapons, dodge melta (which for AV10 is a concern) and usually lets you bypass 24" range weapons the turn you set up to charge charge (move, disembark, fleet, assault gets you 21-26" in one turn). Imo the only vehicles which need Flickerfields are ones which are going to be used as mid/close range gunboats, Warriors/Trueborn in Raiders/Venoms being the obvious ones.

Gorechild wrote:Does that mean your list is sorted?

Yeah I'll be trying the NS out instead of FF. That seems like a positive change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I had a game where I tried NS instead of FF, and suffered my first loss (9 kp to 8 kp). It was a SW army heavy on the shooting and had lots of living lightning. While I don't think LL is a good enough reason to dislike NS, as an infinite range shooting attack it completely bypasses the NS where the FF might have offered some protection.

I'm going to keep trying out the NS, we'll see how it works out over the course of a few more games.

The problem with nightshields is that most of the threatening anti-tank stuff people bring now is 48", so you're outranged regardless (missle spam, autocannons, etc). I think the flickerfield is the better bet in this case.

Grimaldi wrote:The problem with nightshields is that most of the threatening anti-tank stuff people bring now is 48", so you're outranged regardless (missle spam, autocannons, etc). I think the flickerfield is the better bet in this case

Agreed. I'm beginning to think on the fields/shields issue, the general rule for me is flickerfields on ravagers and gunboats (like trueborn venoms, or warrior raiders), assault unit's raiders naked (turbo-boosting or empty, generally speaking). I'm just not sure where nights3hields go; As was said before, autocannons, lascannons and missile launchers are all 48", so who cares about 6" there. 36" guns we'd care about, AFAIK, are only things like multi-lasers (on chimeras who'll move up 6"), and heavy bolters (typically on dakka preds, who probably only need the autocannon/TL-lascannon anyway). Other than as mid-range protection from things like melta and rapid fire, I'm just not seeing the utility.

The one place they become a screw job that I noticed thanks to BuFFo's batreps was that hive guard get raped by nightshields. Tyranids aren't a big enough concern to warrant taking an upgrade specifically for as dark eldar anyway though, so I'm not so sure where their value is. The flickerfields I see as something I don't plan on, but simply capitalize on when they come out of nowhere to jam a wrench in an opponent's plan (like when your opponent was relying on that last handful of plasma or whatevever to knock a unit out of a raider to assault it and it gets shut down by the 5++)

Dracos wrote:HQ Succubus Agonizer, blast pistol 100
Elite Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, blast pistol, 1x shardnet + impaler, 2x razorflail, raider 252
Elites Trueborn x4 4x Blaster, venom, 2nd splinter cannon 173
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 1x hydra gauntlet,1x shardnet + impaler, haywire, raider 230
Troops Warriors x10 splinter cannon, raider, flickerfield 170
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

1500

Okay so that was the original list, and its built and I've been playing it on the table top. I've had mixed results (edit: mostly wins still, but more losses than with my C:SM army), mostly due to getting used to manoeuvring on the table top with it. Having an actual venom on the table is nice though, and using it has me wanting more of them!

That, and I am having issues with longfangs and even to a lesser extent BA/C:SM that ran devastators. I've been considering the following change:

HQ Succubus agonizer 85
Elites Bloodbridesx9 syren, agonizer, 3xspecial, raider 237
Elites Truebormx4 4x blaster, venom 163
Troops Wychsx10 hekatrix, agonizer, 2x special, haywire, raider 230
Troops Wychsx10 hekatrix, agonizer, 2x special, haywire, raider 230
Troops Warriorsx5 blaster, venom 2x s.cannon 120
Troops Warriorsx5 blaster, venom 2x s.cannon 120
Heavy Ravager 105
Heavy Ravager 105
Heavy Ravager 105
1500

Basically it trades in the raider warrior squad, FF on the ravagers, 2x blast pistols, and 1 splinter cannon on the TB venom for 2x blaster warriors in venoms. What do you think of this change?