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For general utility purposes what would work better, A) Bane Wolf w/ heavy flamer B) Devil Dog w/ Multi-melta or C) some other combination?

For general utility purposes, what works better? Something specialized in anti-tank or anti-infantry?

I feel the best utility tank is a Hellhound with hull-mounted Multi-melta. The Hellhound's flamer has some range, and a Fast chasis with a Multi-melta has a huge threat range.

Agreed. Thats how I have mine configured.

Also keep in mind that generally a multi-melta is better than the devil dog's melta cannon due to it have the chance of scattering and going to S4.

Ahhh-ctualy, blast weapons have higher accuracy because of acceptable scatter distances. For example, against a Rhino you've got an average of 3" of acceptable scatter. At BS3, you can roll as high as 6 and be on target. You don't scatter 33% of the time, and 6 or less comes up 15/36 (41%) the rest of the time, giving you a total accuracy of 61% (33.3+(41/66.6)).

DarkHound wrote:Ahhh-ctualy, blast weapons have higher accuracy because of acceptable scatter distances. For example, against a Rhino you've got an average of 3" of acceptable scatter. At BS3, you can roll as high as 6 and be on target. You don't scatter 33% of the time, and 6 or less comes up 15/36 (41%) the rest of the time, giving you a total accuracy of 61% (33.3+(41/66.6)).

Ah cool, didn't know that. I just thought that way because someone pointed out the blast weapon having problems with the 1/2 strength.

Even at half strength, you're rolling 2D6 pen. S4 needs to roll a 7 or higher to inflict damage on a Rhino, right? You've got a 58% of rolling a 7 or higher, so you aren't screwed even if you scatter an extra inch or two.

I'd vote for a squadron of Bane Wolves with Multi-Meltas.The fact is, Guard can afford to lose some versatility here, because they've got so many other anti-tank options. Bane Wolves terrorize Marines and anything else, probably more so than any other weapon in the IG arsenal except the Executioner. Two BS3 multi-meltas, while not the most reliable thing in the world, are still going to get the job done a fair amount of the time, especially since they can outflank to hit side armors.

What's more, Bane Wolves car fire both their weapons, since the Chem Cannon is low enough strength to count as a defensive weapon. One tactic I had played on me once involved a Bane Wolf rolling up on a Razorback that had just disembarked a squad of Grey Hunters. It was a TL Lascannon Razorback, and I cunningly thought that I would pop the Marines out, have him take the bait, and then pop it next turn with the Lascannons. Well, he instead targets the Razorback. the multi-melt a pops my tank, and the Chem-cannon hits the tane, with the template also mover the whole squad. Needless to say, he killed them all too. Anecdotal, I know, but I imagine it was great fun for him.

Personally, I go for the Devildog with hull Heavy Flamer. I usually am Cruising anyway so prefer the flexibility. The Meltablast is rather fun, both as a psychological tool, and for hunting big vehicles.

i perfer the bane wolf with a hull flamer. it works good against horde armies. just drive up to the ork mob and hit them with both. that is alot of hits. likewise, hitting anything else on 2+ is great.

DarkHound wrote:Even at half strength, you're rolling 2D6 pen.

Right, you can still pen a land raider even if you miss.

That said, I'm not terribly impressed with the devil dog. You're paying an awful lot of points for what basically boils down to a single long-range meltagun. For fewer points, you can take a basilisk, which loses melta but gains +1S and ordnance, and is better against infantry to boot.

As for the bane wolf, never take a bane wolf.

"Hello, my name is Ailaros. I have this weapon which instantly liquefies any infantry it touches, but it has to get within 3" of your troops to be really effective. Please don't immobilize, weapon destroy, or wreck it before it makes it up to your lines. I ask this of you because it will be so easy given that it only has AV12, and will probably need to move out into the open. We agreed you won't shoot at it or assault it with fast units? Great, thanks!"

As others have said, the hellhound is the best option. Not a big fan of the multimelta, though, as it means you're always wasting points. Meanwhile, a weapon destroyed on a HHF hellhound turns a anti-infantry flame tank into... and anti-infantry flame tank.

Thats a great point Ailaros.

I also prefer the devil dog with hull heavy flamer. It's the cheapest option by far. Rather than putting a multimelta on the hull, I get redundancy by taking 2 (either singly or in a squadron, but usually singly). You get the approximately 50% hit rate from the meltacannon that you would get with a hull multimelta, plus a flamer template (although not AP3) on a fast chassis for 10-25 points less than other options. I like it better than a hellhound because pretty much anything you're hitting with an inferno cannon is also going to die to a heavy flamer too, and the short range on the hull weapon is somewhat mitigated by the fast vehicle. Hellhounds are specifically better against orks (because of T4). But the heavy flamer is just as effective against anything T3 or less, which are the majority of my targets.

The only time I ever had success with a bane wolf was when I put it into the army in addition to the two devil dogs. It draws a lot of fire.

MagicJuggler wrote:Personally, I go for the Devildog with hull Heavy Flamer. I usually am Cruising anyway so prefer the flexibility. The Meltablast is rather fun, both as a psychological tool, and for hunting big vehicles.

This is my config...for the simple reason I like to fire at range, and the fact that the dog will be moving at cruising speed most of the time....I've used it a lot and I am always amused how my opponents love to focus their fire on it...and being a "low" model it has an easier time to get a cover save versus a vendetta/valk..I use it as a vanguard for the chimeras carrying the squads with special weapons, or as a solo outflanking unit which makes a strong and rapid hook towards an enemy flank..often times not being solo for long as it gets joined by the outflanking units such as Al"R's platoon, or outflanking skimmers...

I've only ran the devildog and the hellhound

Vote go's hands down to the hound tho

If it wasnt for Vendettas we'd see plenty more of these

Ailaros wrote:
"Hello, my name is Ailaros. I have this weapon which instantly liquefies any infantry it touches, but it has to get within 3" of your troops to be really effective. Please don't immobilize, weapon destroy, or wreck it before it makes it up to your lines. I ask this of you because it will be so easy given that it only has AV12, and will probably need to move out into the open. We agreed you won't shoot at it or assault it with fast units? Great, thanks!"

Hello, Ailaros, my name is Creed. I'm going to give you the ability to Scout, so you're going to sneak right up to the opponent before he gets to move. Then, when the actual first turn starts, you're going to drive up and evaporate a Devestator squad, Long Fang Pack, or other equally nasty shooting opponent. It would be even better if you were in a squadron of two of you. That way, anything you shoot is pretty much guaranteed to die. Then, on your opponent's turn, he absolutely must dedicate an inordinate amount of fire on your (and your buddy), or you will kill a unit per turn.

If you don't go first, you can Outflank and do the same thing.

Regardless it does not take an inordinate amount of firepower to take down an AV 12 vehicle. Knowing you have that in your army and setting up longfangs so it can hit them is just a bad move ...

They're neat and they tend to get a player once and than get pwnd severely because of the threat the pose.

The Hellhound is the best of the three for "general purposes" IMO for reasons everyone else has stated. Run a squad of 2 and with the flamer templates you can stack massive wounds on a squad and gut them with wound allocation.

The Bane Wolf has only ever worked for me running it as a counter assault unit hiding it behind other tanks, or with Creed and outflanking it where it can be devastating. But really, of the three, it is the least useful in my experience.

I have a friend who always takes a devil dog and swears by it. He is a very good player, too, so I take his word for it. I have not used the Devil Dog yet myself, but I can see it serving a very useful role as mobile tank hunter as opposed to the Vendetta who is competes with, it is infinitely easier to hide and grant cover to. On the flip side, it does not have the range or accuracy of the Vendetta, nor the speed and transport capacity.

Try all three and see what works best in your list. That is always the best course of action.

So much of this is how you play and what you need the unit for. I would say a hellhound is a good all around pick, maybe you don't need anymore all around choices. Maybe there is a verify specific hole you need filled with those points.

I personally have had HUGE success with a banewolf. It's all about the role it fills and how you plan for that role.

I've also run a devil dog, but I just don't need anymore range or melta in the lists I run. Army construction is so much more than this unit is bad and this unit good.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Regardless it does not take an inordinate amount of firepower to take down an AV 12 vehicle. Knowing you have that in your army and setting up longfangs so it can hit them is just a bad move ...

They're neat and they tend to get a player once and than get pwnd severely because of the threat the pose.

If you use Creed for the Scout move, the 'Wolves can move 30 inches before unleashing their template. That gives them a tremendous threat range, and puts the models right in the opponent's face. This means that they absolutely have to be dealt with immediately, rather than ignoring them for a turn or two while they try to get into position. This radically changes the opponent's target priority.

Radically? If you're moving into charge range, you might actually be HELPING your opponent. Not only do they get to ignore it with most of their army, but their dedicated assault unit that can wreck your vehicles silly now just got a free 6" of movement...

That's assuming, of course that they manage to wreck it. It should be moving 12" a turn this whole time, and you'll be hitting on 6s.

It's just as likely that their dedicated assault unit will end up stuck trying to kill that blasted Hellhound model for a turn or so, which works out quite nicely for the Guard in most situations.

I like the Bane Wolf the most. Most of the guys I play have MEQs and it eats them.

I run two, moving 12" to destroy a squad, and then move them away. If there is anything left of the squad, they are unlikely to charge and hit on 6's. Sure, they might die, but they usually kill more points then they are worth. Plus, if the enemy decides to attack them instead of my Leman Russ's or Chimera's they did a damn good job. I find them really good at shooting assault squads and other close combat units before they get to my squishy parts. If the Chem Cannon doesn't kill them, the Heavy Flamer will, and I get to shoot both every time.

ChrisWWII wrote:That's assuming, of course that they manage to wreck it. It should be moving 12" a turn this whole time, and you'll be hitting on 6s.

Which if they're THSS terminators isn't as unlikely as necessary.

That or they could just shoot it with a meltagun. Thakfully for your opponent, you've driven into melta range with him.

Really, the banewolf competes with marbo: a unit that can trash something and then dies. The difference is that Marbo can't be easily stopped before he delivers his carnage.

Hellhound all the way. The ability to place the template sideways will grant you a LOT more hits per shot. Plus the added range dosen't hurt. Run them in squads of 2. Pop smoke on one tank will grant the entire unit a cover save, plus you can shot your other tank to boot.

If you want melta, take melta gun vets in a chimera.

If the THSS termies are in their lines killing your Banewolves, I think the tanks have accomplished their mission. Either they had to sacrifice a turn getting out of their Land Raider to kill you, you killed their Land Raider, or they deep struck in amongst their own troops instead of closer to your line.

I do agree that it trashes one thing then dies, and they are relatively easy to stop. But I've personally had great results with them. I means, they aren't competitive, but they do have a role that I find useful. It's a narrow role, but sometimes worth it.

If you are using the Banewolf to attack THSS termies, you are using them wrong and deserve to lose it. But against a platoon of MEQs, they will do wonders.

ChrisWWII wrote:If the THSS termies are in their lines killing your Banewolves, I think the tanks have accomplished their mission.

Firstly, you just gave them a free 6" of movement. Hardly sounds like an unbearable thing for your opponent.

Secondly, the whole point appears to be that banewolves are a good suicide unit where they charge forward and look threatening, but their only real use is to serve as a distraction.

headrattle wrote:If you are using the Banewolf to attack THSS termies, you are using them wrong and deserve to lose it. But against a platoon of MEQs, they will do wonders.

Unfortunately, your opponent has a great deal to say about what you can attack and how successful you'll be.

Yes, if your opponent ignores your banewolf altogether, and you sneak it in against a tac squad that is bunched up in such a way where you can get a blast on all of them, they're pretty cool. That said, given that you still don't wound on 1's, even in PERFECT circumstances, you're STILL struggling to make your points back in damage.

Given that you'll never have perfect circumstances except against serious dummies, this means you're looking at a weapon which is basically always putting out some very underwhelming damage. Once you start throwing around enemy fire, enemy movement, and spacing and close combat and other mobility options... and that a single weapon destroyed result or immobilized result makes them worthless, and you can see how little they're likely to accomplish.

I mean, it's fine if people want to make one, but I'd highly suggest that they don't actually glue down the banewolf nozzle to make it easier to convert it to a reasonable vehicle once it does nothing for a few games.

Well, no. You don't get consolidation rolls against vehicles, and the fact that my Banewolves are even fighting THSS termies means that my suicide attack has worked as intended. The THSS termies have either: a) lost their transport and are now attackng the Banewolves, b) gotten out of their transport to attack the Banewolves, or c) have deepstruck into their own battle line to fight the Banewolves. They're now either stuck slowly moving across the board, or spending a turn getting back into their transport.

As a firing line Guard players, any of these options are far more advantageous to me than my enemies.

headrattle wrote:If you are using the Banewolf to attack THSS termies, you are using them wrong and deserve to lose it. But against a platoon of MEQs, they will do wonders.

Unfortunately, your opponent has a great deal to say about what you can attack and how successful you'll be.

Yes, if your opponent ignores your banewolf altogether, and you sneak it in against a tac squad that is bunched up in such a way where you can get a blast on all of them, they're pretty cool. That said, given that you still don't wound on 1's, even in PERFECT circumstances, you're STILL struggling to make your points back in damage.

Given that you'll never have perfect circumstances except against serious dummies, this means you're looking at a weapon which is basically always putting out some very underwhelming damage. Once you start throwing around enemy fire, enemy movement, and spacing and close combat and other mobility options... and that a single weapon destroyed result or immobilized result makes them worthless, and you can see how little they're likely to accomplish.