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Hi dakka
I just wanted to find out what you think of gw

Imo

I do alot of reading around the internet and alot of people bad mouth gw, and i'm asking are they really that bad. I listen to 40k radio and other podcasts , and they talk alot about gw, it's gotten so annoying I try and skip it. On dakka and otherfan sites people moan e at gw all the time.

But ask yourself this.

Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up.

I'll end this rant by saying

Put yourself in gw's shoes before you moan at them, and if you still have a problem with them, don't buy their stuff.

Well thats my veiw what does everybody else think?

1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created. I too grow increasingly bored with listening to people moan- especially people who continue to pay out money to a company that they seem to think is evil.

But then.... anything with a large following attracts a lot of complaints- even from the people who secretly love it. Just spend 5 mins (or less) on one of the World of Warcraft forums, and look a the mad whinging skillz that go on on them! And yet, none of those people complaining would ever give up the game- heck, they'd probably flip out if someone took it away from them!

It seems to be some unspoken law of the world: success attracts negativity, and the most negative are often the most loyal.

I have a love/hate relationship with GW. I love the GW from 2000-2005ish. I hate the current direction the company has taken both in business and in model design.

WFB plastics are becoming more and more difficult to convert with due to almost every race having some unique slowed way of fitting together. Take Bretonnian men at arms and empire infantry for examle. Can't interchange arms easily as brets seam at the elbow and empire at the shoulder. Head swaps are about it and even then require some filing.

Warrios of Chaos are another example of models where head swaps are damn near the only easy kitbash you can do.

The quality of the sculpts has gone up, but the quality of design has gone down IMO.

Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

It's kind of hard to have a "Yes-" or "No-" only answer for this question. I love the game they have created. I have had great customer service when there have been problems with orders or store bought purchases. But I have also been growing more and more upset with crappy WDs, rising costs, and silence when it comes to releasing information about upcoming models (more than a month in advance). Will I stop playing? Only when there is nobody to play against. Will I stop buying? The way they are going, probably as soon as I get married. I'll only update with codexes.

I like their product, but their way of gradually releasing the latest killer codex and all that yattah yattah we all love to hate does annoy me.

I have no problem with their prices, they put a lot of work into things. If we don't like it we don't have to buy from them. They provide meeting places for players, encourage the hobby, and so on. My only gripe is their unintentional encouragement of codex wandwagon jumping and WAAC list clones we see over and over again because of poorly thought out game balance from one codex to the next.

I would so love to have a consolidated rule set where all armies are balanced from the starting line, rather than some being drastically favored over others. Since that isn't going to happen, we make the best of it.

But all in all, that isn't GWs fault, it's the players that cause the clone army builds and competetive points misering and all that stuff that ruins the game by taking advantage of every little thing they can scrape out of their codex to min-max a build. GW just makes it possible for them to do it because of questionable rules design. If that's their worst offense, compared to all the good art, background, atmosphere, and all the hobby enthusiasm they help generate I'd say they are pretty cool.

Sure, I can get angry at the prices but it won't do anything. It just makes getting a new model even nicer. Also, Out of the armies I am interested, I haven't seen any particularly bad models. Granted, at about 2000-2005 they has some shizztastis sculpts. I mean REALLY bad. But nowadays, everything is lovely. Probably about 4th edition 40k models really got nicely done. And now they just keep getting better. I also think their care for fans is still there. They don't need to GW stores. Sure, it helps sell product by a butt ton but PP doesn't have its own stores and its doing all right.

its the lack of creativity the armies have, people tell me i should put up and just accept it, but I don't buy this stuff to just put up and shut up, not how I work
if I am going to spend money on something I want to enjoy it
the game is far to broken, the armies are all too bland, sure the models are nice but so is fantasy and they ruined that game, in my opinion
that and their fluff sucks and never moves forward
its so boring, the 40k books just are so slow and marines generally bother me (there's 7 marine armies-why do we need that many)

Meh, GWs just GW. You hate them but you still buy every one of their products.

Only real complaint is things like ward codexes, and 4th edition codexes that still need updates. Yes GW, Necrons and Tau ARE STILL PLAYED.

And on that note, give the crons a ward codex. I feel like winning alot more with them.

I like their products. 'nuff said.

If i Did not like games workshop i would not play their games.Even if they are getting expensive,But the cost of pewter is high so the cost is passed on to the consumer.So i will praise them for buying the new machines and slowly changing over to plastic.I just wish they would do something with that dummy of a CEO.I guess he is not that bad.their have been worse CEO"s of companys,remember Enron?


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Xanadu wrote:its the lack of creativity the armies have, people tell me i should put up and just accept it, but I don't buy this stuff to just put up and shut up, not how I work
if I am going to spend money on something I want to enjoy it
the game is far to broken, the armies are all too bland, sure the models are nice but so is fantasy and they ruined that game, in my opinion
that and their fluff sucks and never moves forward
its so boring, the 40k books just are so slow and marines generally bother me (there's 7 marine armies-why do we need that many)

Wow what planet have you been on?This is the best ED. fantasy yet.I started with the 3rd.ED. i love the way they combined the old fantasy with the new and changed the turn sequence.It reminds that they took 5 th and 6th and mashed them together.By the way i started playing the rpg before they had warhammer fantasy battles!

I hate codex creep and GW's business model in general. I love that they FAQ'ed my Dark Angels though, so for now I vote yes.

Voted "yes", because despite it all I *do* like GW, and in particular the history GW represents.

I just wish they liked me back, and didn't try to price-hike their way out of a sales slump.

GW can't be any worse than neutral. If it gets to a point where the quality isn't good enough or the prices too high then you just stop being a GW customer, and you are then neutral with the company. The only way that changes is if GW forces you to buy their stuff, or they somehow trick you into it.

As for me, I like they're games as beer & pretzels fun, and a chance to put their fine models out on the board, all looking cool. The prices aren't cheap, but in terms of buying a box set every month or so, it's pretty trivial.

I started as a GW gamer back in 1987 or so. My group played Rogue Trader and WHFB, coming into it from board-and roleplaying games. We hopped on many of their other releases as they started coming out: Blood Bowl, Man o'War, Space Hulk, Heroquest Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine and just before i left for University, Necromunda. We ended up gravitating more and more toward Epic, at the end, because we had an easy time getting big armies assembled and because it has fewer of the problems the other systems were plagued by, which were the usual compaints, even back then. Eventually, I fell out of miniatures gaming, as my interest in GW's IP could be covered elsewhere: the computer games (I still have the Space Hulk floppy disks, box and manual), occasionally reading a novel and browsing codexes and army books of friends who stayed in. And playing Blood Bowl now and then.

My thing was that if I was going to invest as much time - which really is the issue - in a miniatures game as GW's army size demands, I wanted more in return than just a beer & pretzels game. I can get better value for my money with boardgames, there. The tomes of army selection and comp restrictions I saw in WHFB kept me away - not that the idea is bad in itself, but the added level of complexity needed to make the game tournament friendly should not be up to the players, that is the company's responsibility (had I not been so busy with other things when 6th came out with Ravening Hordes, I might well have come back, though).! 40k just isn't what I am looking for in a wargame anymore.

They're not that bad, but they most definitely are not providing what I am looking for in a miniatures wargame. I am very happy with my "second wind" of miniatures gaming, now that there finally are some realistic alternatives.

moonshine wrote:...ask yourself this.

Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

No, but they didn't come up with 40K either. Its all ripped off from various other sources. I will admit that they are unique in how they implemented all the 'borrowed' ideas that they so vicously defend as their own genuine IP, but that still doesn't validate their 'originality'. I love the fluff like the next guy, but its badly implemented into their game.

And I do buy from other sources.

moonshine wrote:Put yourself in gw's shoes before you moan at them, and if you still have a problem with them, don't buy their stuff.

Well thats my veiw what does everybody else think?

Since you asked, here is what I think.
Its easy to understand GW's stance. Sell rubes garbage rules for great models "We are a models company that makes rules in order to sell models" (A paraphrased quote that GW made at one point in time) at exorbitant prices increased yearly and sometimes bi-yearly.

I have invested not only an immense amount of money in their products, but quite a few years of time as well. I will bitch and moan about them as much as I like and buy from them whenever I like, thank you very much.

Your fascist and illogical defense of GW is much appreciated.

I like the products, dislike the corporation - similar attitude I have towards Microsoft.

I don't like how they market stuff (although I don't expose myself to too much of it now anyway) nor the fact they are profit-focussed instead of customer-focussed.

I'm starting to look at other systems (I've only recently got back to the hobby itself) and if I like what I find more than GW, I'll vote with my feet - I'll buy from them, not GW.

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

AvatarForm wrote:

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

Posts like this make me wonder why some people are signed up to a forum that is predominantly about GW games when they clearly don't like anything to do with them.


Anyway...Sure the prices are a little steep, sure the company makes a lot of "WTF?!" decisions but I still think they could do worse.

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

I like GW as it is today, I'm just worried that someday in the future I'll be heavily invested into games by a company just as bad as EA Games(While I'm sure some like EA Games, I don't). So whenever I complain about GW its mostly due to fear about tomorrow, for in the grimdarkness of the future...there is only good business.

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

Ratius wrote:

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

When you think that it costs £12-15 to go to the cinema and get snacks (2-3 hours max). £15 for a box of troops that takes a couple hours to assemble, an hour or so per model to paint and then you have it for life isn't all that bad.

...until you consider how poor the rules are...

That's where the value argument loses its legitimacy. For me at least.

Hellfury wrote:...until you consider how poor the rules are...

That's where the value argument loses its legitimacy. For me at least.

But what about the value of having poor rules?

Is gw really that bad ?

Yeah, they are.

Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

In the grand scheme of things, GW provides a product. It has flaws. Some aspects of the product that are still currently used date back to almost a decade ago. Some newer aspects confuse the heck out of us.

But then we have the GW supporters like yakface who are there to FAQ and help us understand the rules.

In the grand taco of things, it is for you to decide if it is worth playing this game and collecting the miniatures.

Oh yes, and look over at Hasbro and what they have done by comparison.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

I never said that your argument is flawed. Careful reading of my post reveals that it is my subjective opinion that the rules are utter pants and no matter how pretty the models are, the rules simply do not carry the same care as the models exhibit. Pretty models do not make up for the rather poor rules which show an almost palpable contempt for the consumer base.

Fun for you may be another's torture.

Hence the qualifying statement in the paragraph: "For me at least".

There are things that I like about GW and other things that I dislike about them.

The thing that I like most about GW is their models.
They have made some great games like Blood Bowl.
GW has kept most of their specialist games in print, and even made their rules free to download.
They have stores where you can go and paint and play games.

Their rules are poorly written and terribly unbalanced.
The current rules for 40k, fantasy, and wotr are not as flexible or fun as an rpg but neither are they suitable for competitive play.
Certain units have rules that are so poor, they are essentially unplayable.
The new rules for fantasy and wotr encourage the use of an excessive number of miniatures.
Many of the unique aspects of armies are being taken away ( for example, all of the new fantasy armies have giant creatures)
Some of their pricing, such as the great swords, is way too high.
I don't like the way they treat some of their employees.

One comment that is often made is to simply ditch GW and play another game. The reason more people do not do this is that not that many other games have a decent player base. Thus if you jump ship you may not be able to find games. I think that with the rise in popularity of Warmachine and Flames of War many people will ditch GW.

I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO