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Comments from those playing similar or alternative 'Draigowings' are most welcome, as are those from people who've played against a similar list or other Draigowings.

I'm sure this post will attract lots of comment along the lines of 'Sir, I am deeply concerned at how few models you have on the table' or 'It is my considered opinion, that I advance in all humility, that you will be destroyed by my army which fields xxx and yyy' or similar. To which my reply will be 'Sez you.' Actually, it might be rather politer and more detailed a response than that, but if we could avoid knee-jerk internet-dogma spouting reactions, I think that would be nice. I've beaten some strong lists with this army/strategy and some good players too. I'd say (because I haven't kept strict count) that at 2000 points my win-draw-loss record is now around 60-10-10 with 1 loss in an Annihilation game, 2 in Seize Ground (both 4 objective missions) and 4 or 5 in Capture and Control (the others being in Cities of Death scenarios).

To my mind a paladin army must play to its strengths:

1) minimise units. You want to be certain of winning Annihilation games and you do so my minimising KPs. I'll deal with Seize Ground and Capture & Control later.

2) make units as robust as possible. This means warding staves are high on the priority list for paladin units and absolutely essential for the Librarian, who is essential as he makes units both more deadly and more robust and with a stave is pretty damn hard to eradicate himself.

3) get a transport. Ideally this should be a 'raven. Yes, easier killed than a 'raider (though not desperately so, being immune to melta and with a potential 3+ cover save thanks to Shrouding) but it's also much faster and its mindstrikes will remove pesky enemy psykers and their hoods faster than you can say Perils of the Warp.

4) minimise exposure to enemy fire. this means you always reserve and always take second turn if you can (or if it's gifted to you). the game will, on average, last 6 turns. If you go second and come on no earlier than turn 2 (ie you reserved) you get 5 turns to shoot and assault the enemy, he only gets 4 turns to do unto you (thus increasing your survivability by 33% compared to if you started on board). And you always get 'the last word', moving to contest or grab an objective or focusing fire and/or assault to kill another unit. Yes, you may come on 'piecemeal', but I'll deal with that in the army lists.

5) the only unit that should ever deepstrike is Draigo by himself. Otherwise you are landing, firing and being a nice target for enemy fire in his turn. Deepstriking has its place as a tactic but not in a low unit count paladin list.

6) another word on reserving. Most opponents make mistakes if allowed two turns on the table without opposition. They tend to spread out more than they should, especially in objective games, or cover all possible entry points in Annihilation (ie place units so anywhere on the table can be fired upon). often they will stray within 12" of a board edge (Outflank/shoot/assault...) or will come into your table half (12" assault vehicle move, disembark 2", shoot?, assault 6"/best of 2d6")

7) prioritise targets. If possible you really want to destroy nasty template dealing weapons (Vindicators...) the turn you come on. That's where the 'raven with its TL multi-melta can be invaluable. Equally a pesky Long Fang or similar squad cowering abjectly in ruins at the rear, soiling their wolfskins in fear but firing lascannon, missiles and plasma with the desperate abandon of the terror-stricken probably needs to be takjen out quite early (sometimes your opponent leaves them open to Outflank, otherwise staying out of their line of sight or staying locked in assault (which sometimes means not casting hammerhand against weaker squads) can work.

Annihilation: Reserve everything. Give Scout to units lacking transport so they can Outflank. Always try to move on the board, shoot (unless you won't be able to make an assault if you inflict too many casualties) and assault. Try and multi-assault if possible. If you can't assault, you must end in cover. Remember, even if you lose a paladin squad for 350-ish points to fire, so long as they eliminated one enemy squad, however cheap, and weakened another, you're ahead. It takes a lot of ID fire to eliminate a 5 man paladin squad in cover -- more than most people think. Honestly, unless you make some huge error (like deepstriking) you'll win these games comfortably against almost any opposition (only armies lacking easy kill points need be feared and there are damn few of them in MSU/mech-heavy environments).

Seize Ground: Reserve everything. You need to decide whether to give Scout to units without transport or to make Dreadnoughts scoring. it's impossible to say which will be the better choice. try to place your objectives in your table half, 12" apart and within 12" of an enemy objective (ie a triangle) because a 5 man paladin squad can, with care in placenment turn 4, grab two objectives that are 12" apart in turn 5. Or place your objectives in your half 12" from either table edge and aim to Outflank, unless your enemy is silly enough to place one of his objectives within 12" of a flank, in which case place yours on the other flank in your half. remember all you have to do is control one more objective than the enemy and you can detach Draigo and the Librarian to contest if necessary. I have won several Seize Grounds 2-0 or 2-1 at 1500 points (excluding the two such games where I won by tabling the opponent).

Capture and Control: Reserve everything. This (surprisingly) is the hardest mission to win with a low-unit count paladin force at any points but especially below 1750. You might sometimes want to make a dreadnought scoring to hold your own objective but most often Outflank will be the better grand Strategy, especially if your opponent is daft enough to place his objective near a table edge (the downside is you might come on on the wrong side and that's why at 1500, where two vehicles can't really be fielded, this mission will be really hard to win).


2000 points:

Draigo - 275
5 paladins: 2 psycannon, 2 halberds, hammer, stave, banner - 360
Venerable Dreadnought: assault cannon, psybolts, heavy flamer, psyflame - 205
Stormraven Gunship: TL multi-melta, TL plasma cannon - 205

Librarian: (Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, The Shrouding, Warp Rift), warding stave - 210
5 paladins: 2 psycannon, 2 halberds, hammer, stave, sword - 335
Venerable Dreadnought: assault cannon, psybolts, heavy flamer, psyflame - 205
Stormraven Gunship: TL multi-melta, TL plasma cannon - 205

This is for me the optimum points for a paladin list. You can reserve in the two 'uber units' as listed above and thus when you come on seperately, you're still fielding a substantial force that is hard to kill. You can consider Outflanking a paladin unit if the particular mission really warrants it and bringing on one Gunship with just Draigo and the Dreadnought. Everything is hard to kill (except a 'raven that hasn't moved Flat Out but when it moves at cruising speed it's going to unload, fire everything and at that point has done its job).

Why?

Draigo - self explanatory really. Can fight by himself, doesn't need to use cover when he does and so is potentially a real thorn in the enemy's side. An excellent late game objective contestor. Gives Grand Strategy options, minces psykers and their squads. Hard to kill by either shooting or assault. Cheap at his price

Librarian - has te warding stave because he's going to end up in assault often and 2++ against any wound (ie including Perils) suffered in close combat where he can be individually targeted means he survives much longer. indeed the enemy often choose not to attack him and go for the squad instead (and hence of course the squad has a warding stave too). Quicksilver might be considered a luxury but he can cast it on any unit within 6" and thus give it to a Dreadnought. But quite honestly it's better to have 15 Initiative 10 attacks than 6 Initiative 6 and 9 Initiative 4. The other powers should pretty obvious in their utility but Warp Rift is often passed over. It murders low Initiative models (Initiative test or death with no saves whatsoever) and is useful against vehicles (auto-penetrating hit) and being a template can sometimes catcht more than one unit.

Draigo's Paladins - stave is necessary to protect the squad in close combat. Those who dispute this probably haven't used one enough. The banner isn't often thought worth it on 5 man squads but in this case it allows you 6 Initiative 6 attacks rather than 4 and gives Draigo another attack at Initiative 5. This will make many assault units stop and think quite hard. Especially if you have given Counter-Attack to the unit and thus are potentially getting 8 Initiative 6 attacks when being charged... The psycannon and hammer are pretty self-explanatory, I think.

Librarian's Paladins - lack the banner because of points and also because the Librarian isn't as offensive as Draigo. Otherwise the same.

Venerable Dreadnoughts: Normally the Venerable Psyfleman option would be best in most lists but with the assault cannon is hitting on 2s and if they're up with the troops (which they will be), the Greater Aegis plays havoc with psykers who have not yet died to Mindstrikes. coupled with the Librarian's psychic hood, enemy psychic powers become very chancy. And the S6 templates mince weakling T3 squads.

Stormraven Gunship - has the huge advantage over a 'raider that it can carry a Dreadnought, is 'immune' to melta and gets a 4+ flat out cover save (potentially 3+ with Librarian within 6"). Often the enemy will stray far enough forward that you can: move 12", unload contents who shoot?/assault enemy that turn, fire all weapons, using its melta against the nastiest template-vehicle within range if it can (so goodbye Psykers to Mindstrikes...) and thus do some damage. At that point it will probably get shot down next turn but that is fire it is drawing from your paladins. If it does not get shot down, it can then zoom about firing melta or plasma, getting in the enemy's way and, if it survives, contesting objectives at the game's end. Or it Flat Outs 24" with contents inside, fire's it's melta at the nastiest template-dealing vehicle and probably gets destroyed next turn (though not always by any means), but allowing your paladins and dreadnought to unload near the enemy. you have to be careful not to let him surround it in his movement phase, or potentially in the assault phase, but forethought should remove that risk.

I'll deal with 1850, 1750 and 1500 point lists in due course (over the next few days).

You have essentially 4 units... 2 of them are AV 12. You will loose the transports. You will get shot to bits.

Hate to say it, but my orks would love to meet this army... lootas will pop those transports and the bw's will charge down the pally's and one waaagh later, 10 pally's will be swarmed with boyz, burnaz and nobz.

If you want a good Dragio idea, look at Blackmoor's list. He just took second place at the Nova Open this weekend and play against some serious competition

To you nay sayers, I just got done playing an apoc game with some friends and my 10 man unit of Paladins survived a large gak fight against 10 Khorne Berserkers, 10 Thousand suns, 1 Dreadnought and a Dreadknight. Granted by the time the game was over I only had 3 Paladins left and they each had a wound, but they had taken out the Dreadknight, all of the Thousand suns, and the Berserkers AND I still had 2 Hammers for the Dreadnought. This is all WITHOUT Draigo or a Libby.

You have essentially 4 units... 2 of them are AV 12. You will loose the transports. You will get shot to bits.

No. I have essentially 2 units (which is the whole point). they are indeed merely AV12. Amazingly in a large number of games (did you read the whole post?) i have been shot to bits remarkably few times.

This list, and the accompanying tactics which are key, has proven itself time and time again. I'm not by any means saying it is unbeatable, I've lost several. But I've won loads more and against all sorts of armies. So i'm afraid I can't agree that 'I will just get shot to bits' because a) that's not an argument, it's an opinion, and b) my experience runs counter to that. Certainly I have sometimes lost both 'ravens on their turn of entry. that has not prevented me from winning games where that has happened.

If you want a good Dragio idea, look at Blackmoor's list. He just took second place at the Nova Open this weekend and play against some serious competition

I'm sure his is an excellent Draigo list. This happens to be a good one too. If you want to discuss the specific pros and cons and methods of handling each army and prospective opponents, than I'd be glad to do that here.

question from a person new to draigo and GK in general. If you have a list of like 10 paladins, Libby, and draigo, do you always combat squad them into two groups, or most of the time, or not at all?

Sounds like you have quite a lot of experience playing an elite small but tough list like the one included in your OP. I am curious why your not using techmarines though. Psychostroke grenades are just plain broken.

It looks like you'll lose everytime to a Guard player worth his salt though. The High Str and Low AP of everything they pack will disallow paladin 2+ saves and FnP, and probably cause ID. Another thing to think of having to play against would be Purifier Spam, it's popular as we all know hits like a ton of bricks. and has significantly more everything than you. In KP you may be alright with their metal boxes. However you will suffer greatly in the other missions.

To be honest Artemo I think your list has some interesting ideas and uses some very cool tactics my only problem with it, and just about any other Draigowing list, is that I don't think it can stand up to Mech armies.

I think Swarm armies would even give you trouble even with the Psyflame Dreadnaughts. I think the only army that you probably do very well against is MeQ because of the amount of Power Weapons and Transport destroying abilities.

If I was playing against you with a Mech army (we'll use Mech Guard for this exampe) this is what I would do: I would, as soon as your Stormravens came on, use my Hydra Flak cannons to down both of them (yes the Hydra's are going to down them don't underestimate Hydras). Next I would use my Medusa's and Manticores to hammer your Paladins with large and small blast Str 10 shots (some of them Ap1 some of them Ap4). Finally I would use my Valkyries to take down your Dreadnaughts. If everything goes accordingly, and with the amount of firepower I am sending at you, by the time turn 4 rolls around (and this is assuming you reserved everything) I would expect you to have about 2 Paladins in each squad and maybe Draigo left.

I am not putting down your list I am simply giving you constructive critisizm because the Meta today seems like Mech Guard is the most popular and you will encounter that the most in tournaments (assuming you play competitively). My suggestion would be to use Raiders and have the Dreadnaughts walk up behind the Raiders and use them for cover. My other suggestion for your list would be to add in the Apothecary's for FnP if your points will allow it because FnP makes your units SO much more survivable.

The paladin is definitely a viable GK build. I myself have been considering (and am working on) a triple-raven Draigowing army, though it probably won't be all paladins.

The downside of a paladin army is the model-count. With such a low model-count, I don't really consider it a very balanced all-comer's army. Now that doesn't mean that it isn't a good, strong army. It just means that it will be more prone to matchups than, say, a purifier build. If they go up against shooty MSU-style armies, armies that can put up a massive amount of VoF (volume of fire/attacks) such as orks, daemons or tau, or in multiple-objectives-based missions, I can see them having some trouble. You really have to play more strategically with a paladin build than with other GK builds.

Sanguinis wrote:If I was playing against you with a Mech army (we'll use Mech Guard for this exampe) this is what I would do: I would, as soon as your Stormravens came on, use my Hydra Flak cannons to down both of them (yes the Hydra's are going to down them don't underestimate Hydras). Next I would use my Medusa's and Manticores

At this point you've listed 4 Heavy Support choices: Two Hydra squadrons (otherwise you wouldn't be able to shoot at both Storm Ravens), an artillery squadron, and a Manticore (or more).

I can understand why the OP put his disclaimer. People seem to resort to hyperbole a little too much. If you're going to criticize his list, especially using a specific army, at least make it seem like you're following the rules.

There are other ways to beat it, without taking 4+ Heavy Support options.

He might mean a squadron iof 2 Hydras,and take 2 turns to take them down.

Deadshot wrote:He might mean a squadron iof 2 Hydras,and take 2 turns to take them down.

Which means that half the army is already in the IG parking lot smashing their way forward.

A paladin squad,a Dread,and either Draigo or a Libby,and a SR.Easy enough to deal with.

I am not putting down your list I am simply giving you constructive critisizm

Your post is entirely reasoned and well thought out, unlike the knee-jerk and generally unsubstantiated reactions that I rather object to, so first of all, thanks for posting in a sensible and constructive manner. I'm not saying that my list is a build that will meet everything on equal terms, merely that it is, in my view, the best possible 'Draigo-wing' and played as an 'always reserve' army will go toe to toe with any list, even if it ultimately loses (maybe not a list specifically tailored to take it down, but that's true of most armies).

I've played Tin Can Imperial Weaklings with their host of mech template ID and TL ID weapons a few times now and I think they definitely give me the toughest games based on list (as opposed to player, I've been drubbed by better players with good lists but not as nasty as the Imperial weakling ones in my view), but I've still won more than I've lost to them, though in fairness that's partly because I've Outflanked one or two paladin squads and they've been able to walk on fire and assault, which is really a mistake on the part of the enemy player that won't be made more than once by a decent player. None of them have had Hydras though, and that may well be the decisive factor. I actually expected heavy-melta MSU mech marines to be the nastiest foe to face (and they were when I used 'raiders as the core) but I don't find they're too bad, surprisingly.

My suggestion would be to use Raiders and have the Dreadnaughts walk up behind the Raiders and use them for cover

They key with 'ravens is that they can carry both squad and dreadnought. If using 'raiders plus dreadnoughts, I'd have 4 reserve groups not 2. that makes a big difference, I find. I'd rather not deploy everything in turn one and save myself 1 or 2 turns worth of fire and be able to bring half or all my army in at once rather than have to face those 1 or 2 extra turns of fire with 'raiders or run the risk of coming on very piecemeal.

On apothecaries, it's my belief - and experience - that paladins die most often to weapons that ignore FNP and that for +75 points, the apothecary would have to save 3 wounds to pay his way, which is 6 FNP wounds, or 30 failed armour saves, about 60 wounds and 120 attacks. I just don't take than many FNP wounds to a single squad in most games. What kills them most often is ID, AP 1 and 2, rending or power weapon attacks.

Sounds like you have quite a lot of experience playing an elite small but tough list like the one included in your OP. I am curious why your not using techmarines though. Psychostroke grenades are just plain broken.

It's true that in wargames I've always tended to prefer a small elite force. The main reason I don't use a techmarine is lack of room in the 'ravens. Draigio is essential and although techmarines are a good option for this list, they're nowhere near as good as a Librarian for this list. To take one, I'd have to drop a paladin squad down to four men, which would mean losing 2 psycannon and, most importantly, 2 wounds and 2 attacks whilst potentially giving away an extra kill point. If I went to 2500 points and ran 3 squads, I'd put a techmarine in with one of them, I think - though much would depend on what the points ended up for draigo, librarian, 'ravens and paladins because I'm not sure losing a venerable dreadnought would be good. Let's see...

Draigo, Librarian, 15 paladins (only one squad with banner), 3 'ravens is 2130, leaves 370 points. One venerable dreadnought makes 2335, leaving 165. Enough for a techmarine with a warding stave, rad and psychotroke grenades (140pts) and a banner for that squad too. Worth a thought at least, thanks.

You really have to play more strategically with a paladin build than with other GK builds.

Yes. Whilst in annihilation I think you've got an almost guaranteed win, in objective missions you need always to think about positioning for future turns. Strangely I find Capture and Control much harder than Seize Ground, possibly because

The other thing I would say in fairness is that a fair percentage (though less than half) of my wins can be put down to my opponent's overconfidence (too few models, too few scoring units, TH/SS terminators will eat paladins, 'ravens AV12 are easy meat, etc etc). I have very fond memories of a Space Werewolf-wannabe player conceding on turn 3 in a huge huff (it was a rare occasion when I'd started first and come on from my board edge in turn one - Dawn of War) because he was facing a tabling on turn 4. that wasn't because his list was bad, it was because he was hugely overconfident and failed to take into account the problems the scenario and my list presented him.

How much do you Scout versus how much do you come in from your edge.

Remember, you must declare a unit to be Outflanking during deployment.

Generally speaking at 2000 points I only Outflank if there's either an objective near both edges and the position of the other objectives is such that it's worth grabbing one of those or if the enemy has deployed a unit near the edge (I find surprisingly many people do if there's a tall building on the flank and they have a good long-range infantry squad like Long Fangs. I have, rarely, outflanked two units and run one 'raven with just Draigo in it.

At 1500 I always Outflank a paladin squad as I can only afford a single 'raven or Crusader. It makes 1500 games chancier as sometime you come in on the 'wrong' flank, away from the action.

Often, I find, if someone wins the initiative, they take first turn. As I almost invariably want second turn, this is just dandy. regular opponents wise-up but even good players seem to want first turn without really considering what my strategy might be. This helps as you wait until he's deployed before having to declare.

I am going to be honest and say I think that mech DE will be your hardest match up because at the level Draigowings excel at DE can field a whole lot of Darklight weapons which are both S8 and AP2 neither of which is conducive to the health of your paladins, that's not to say you can't win, I am pretty sure that you can give paladins storm shields not 100% sure though, that or you have to hug cover to have a relatively decent chance of survival.
So, excuse me for asking bluntly, but how would you go about stopping mechanised DE from bending you over as it were?

The list I played against at ardboyz was just three ten man paladin units with an apothocarry and 4 master-crafted psycannons, draigo and coteaz. I killed 5 palidans and he killed 2200 points of orks. It wasn't pretty. The thing with palidans is that they don't die... ever. And they kill any unit within 24 in

Krellnus wrote:I am going to be honest and say I think that mech DE will be your hardest match up because at the level Draigowings excel at DE can field a whole lot of Darklight weapons which are both S8 and AP2 neither of which is conducive to the health of your paladins, that's not to say you can't win, I am pretty sure that you can give paladins storm shields not 100% sure though, that or you have to hug cover to have a relatively decent chance of survival.
So, excuse me for asking bluntly, but how would you go about stopping mechanised DE from bending you over as it were?

Actually, darklite weaponry isn't really much of a concern to a paladin build, at least not with Draigo there to tank any insta-killing shots and the librarian casting Shrouding to give them 3+ cover.

Rather, the problem paladins will have against DE is with their mobility. In annihiliation, they will stand a good chance against DE, but in objectives-based games, they will really struggle with the mobility of raider/venom-spam DE.

youbedead wrote:The list I played against at ardboyz was just three ten man paladin units with an apothocarry and 4 master-crafted psycannons, draigo and coteaz. I killed 5 palidans and he killed 2200 points of orks. It wasn't pretty. The thing with palidans is that they don't die... ever. And they kill any unit within 24 in

Yeah, paladins are really damn resilient if done properly. They may be one of the hardest units to kill in the game right now, along with TWC, fateweaver'd bloodcrushers and maybe jetseer council. Honestly, I don't think they even need the apothecaries.

Well its the combination of mobility and Darklight weapons really. Dark Lances are one of the few S8 AP2 weapons taken in large numbers (mostly its Missiles with AP3) and will put the hurt on that unit with little chance of being caught in return. Assuming we have a reasonably Darklight heavy list at 2000pts (lets say 24 shots to make my Mathhammer easy, but its not an unrealistic number by any means), we get 15 wounds per turn on that unit. If you somehow manage to allocate these all on to Draigo then on average he is comfortably dead, more likely a couple go on to Paladins and you lose 1-2 and Draigo sticks around with 1 wound. If the same things happens next turn then Draigo dies (or stops taking hits to avoid dying which has the same effect) and those 15 wounds kill 7 Paladins or 5 with Shrouding up. Admittedly you probably wiped a unit off the face of the earth with your shooting (a Raider or Trueborn Venom which got closer), which slightly decreases the damage you will be taking the second time, but in 2 rounds of shooting I just killed off a massive chunk of your army without even accouting for my anti infantry firepower and you have no chance of catching me. I'm pretty sure that counts as effective.

Personally I'm going to say Horde guard.

Its not the High st Low AP thats going to get you in the end.

Its the massive amounts of low St, no AP shots your going to have to save thats going to downfall your list.

Combines with massed St. 6-7 shots Coming in the form of Grenade launchers, Multi lasers, autocannons etc firing at only 2 targets of opportunity

As a person who has played Draigo with 3 Stormravens I can say that the above proposed list will slaughter left and right effortlessly in casual games. In tournament games however, the opponents will not make so many mistakes so:

Outflanking will become useless, no one is going to keep units within assault range of the paladins.

Castleling will become a huge problem.

Foot Tau, Eldar, Tyranids will be a huge problem.

Tank shock will be an issue! Without meltabombs you will find yourself loosing ground to 35-40 point Rhinos and really hating it!

That being said, the list has some great ideas! Draigo needs psy-protection, the missiles go a long way but they are not enough. At Ard Boys ALL of my opponents kept their psykers hidden until all Stormravens went down! Having both a Librarian AND a Dreadnought is something I still haven't had the time to try but looks really exciting!

To all the people worried about shooting attacks, Paladins die ONLY to rending and power close combat weapons. Its a rule from the dice Gods.

Thank you for trying a GK army that doesn't include Crowe!

Grey Therion wrote:
To all the people worried about shooting attacks, Paladins die ONLY to rending and power close combat weapons. Its a rule from the dice Gods.

Really? That's not what they told my psydreads.

Though I couldn't kill them in assault even with daemonhammers and psyk-out grenades on purifiers even if I had wanted to.

(For those who don't know, I played against Grey Therion at the Ard Boyz.)

jy2 wrote:

Krellnus wrote:I am going to be honest and say I think that mech DE will be your hardest match up because at the level Draigowings excel at DE can field a whole lot of Darklight weapons which are both S8 and AP2 neither of which is conducive to the health of your paladins, that's not to say you can't win, I am pretty sure that you can give paladins storm shields not 100% sure though, that or you have to hug cover to have a relatively decent chance of survival.
So, excuse me for asking bluntly, but how would you go about stopping mechanised DE from bending you over as it were?

Actually, darklite weaponry isn't really much of a concern to a paladin build, at least not with Draigo there to tank any insta-killing shots and the librarian casting Shrouding to give them 3+ cover.

Rather, the problem paladins will have against DE is with their mobility. In annihiliation, they will stand a good chance against DE, but in objectives-based games, they will really struggle with the mobility of raider/venom-spam DE.

youbedead wrote:The list I played against at ardboyz was just three ten man paladin units with an apothocarry and 4 master-crafted psycannons, draigo and coteaz. I killed 5 palidans and he killed 2200 points of orks. It wasn't pretty. The thing with palidans is that they don't die... ever. And they kill any unit within 24 in

Yeah, paladins are really damn resilient if done properly. They may be one of the hardest units to kill in the game right now, along with TWC, fateweaver'd bloodcrushers and maybe jetseer council. Honestly, I don't think they even need the apothecaries.

The apothecary doubles their survivability against small arms fire, they have a 12/1 wound ratios instead of 6/1

Comrade wrote:Personally I'm going to say Horde guard.

Its not the High st Low AP thats going to get you in the end.

Its the massive amounts of low St, no AP shots your going to have to save thats going to downfall your list.

Combines with massed St. 6-7 shots Coming in the form of Grenade launchers, Multi lasers, autocannons etc firing at only 2 targets of opportunity

Do you know how many lasgun shot it would take to kill one palidin 144 to kill 10 1440. Hail of bullets does not work Thats why they scare my orks

I'm curious to see what people would say of this list.

Draigo, 5 paladins with Warding Stave, Psycannon, 2 Hammers, 3 Halbards, Stormraven with Twin Linked Multi Melta and Twin Linked Plasma Cannons, Dreadnought with 2 Twin Linked Autocannons and Psybolt

Librarian with Warding Stave, Mastery Level 3, Smite, Sanctuary, Quicksilver, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, Vortex of Doom and The Shrouding, 5 paladins with Warding Stave, Psycannon 2 Hammers, 3 Halbards, Stormraven with Twin Linked Multi Melta and Twin Linked Plasma Cannons, Dreadnought with 2 Twin Linked Autocannons and Psybolt

Vindecare.

Please note that I havent played any game with this list, still waiting on models, but am trying to build a Draigowing list for friendly shop play

a_h_d wrote:I'm curious to see what people would say of this list.

Draigo, 5 paladins with Warding Stave, Psycannon, 2 Hammers, 3 Halbards, Stormraven with Twin Linked Multi Melta and Twin Linked Plasma Cannons, Dreadnought with 2 Twin Linked Autocannons and Psybolt

Librarian with Warding Stave, Mastery Level 3, Smite, Sanctuary, Quicksilver, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, Vortex of Doom and The Shrouding, 5 paladins with Warding Stave, Psycannon 2 Hammers, 3 Halbards, Stormraven with Twin Linked Multi Melta and Twin Linked Plasma Cannons, Dreadnought with 2 Twin Linked Autocannons and Psybolt

Vindecare.

Please note that I havent played any game with this list, still waiting on models, but am trying to build a Draigowing list for friendly shop play

Seen simular lists played to good effect.

I've been considering a Draigowing (mostly due to the fact an entire army is like $300 to build, if that, if your thirfty), but I really wanna see what new Crons bring. I'm a fan of only owning 1 power armor army; Xenos armies are just so much more fun and interesting!

@Zid - That’s exactly the same as me. I don’t have mega loads of money to throw around (meaning I can take a while and hopefully make a small army of nicely made models, but that’s a different issue) and I am defiantly already hoarding a bit from the Necrons.

My only major worry as a deviation from the tactics given earlier is how to keep the Vindecare alive through the first couple of turns, as having the wrath of an entire army bearing down on a single model isn’t particularly pleasant, so thought on how to make him live through the first turn?

a_h_d wrote:My only major worry as a deviation from the tactics given earlier is how to keep the Vindecare alive through the first couple of turns, as having the wrath of an entire army bearing down on a single model isn’t particularly pleasant, so thought on how to make him live through the first turn?

Why do you need him to?

This won't work every time, but you can outflank him, and use his pistol to blow something up, as it follows all the rules of his rifle.

Move him into cover, blow something up, and next turn you can use the rifle to full effect.

Otherwise, you can start him on the board, out of line of sight. If your opponent goes first you can wait to move him on your second turn, and not have to worry about any shots until your opponent's third turn at the earliest. You can always go to ground for that special 2+ cover save too. If you had a way to get a Techmarine in there (not likely, I know), you could bolster a ruin and have a 2+ by default for him.