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Here. NM... Can't find it

 raiden wrote:

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.

We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,

We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.

Let's look this over, though.

Codex: Space Marines - White Scar Chapter Tactics - Space Marine Biker
Costs 21 points, gets Hit and Run, Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks

Codex: Dark Angels - Ravenwing Biker
Costs 25 points, gets Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, and Re-roll Jink Save


So, the value of the Hit and Run cancels each other out. Teleport Homers cost 5 points each, so depending on how many bikes you have in your squad could be valued at less than a point each to 1.67 points per model. That assumes that you're running the army in conjunction with Terminators otherwise the Teleport Homers are wasted points. Giving that the benefit of the doubt, are Scout and the Jink Re-Roll worth a little over 2 points per model? Yeah, I could agree with that. But you're paying a tax for using Terminators. And I haven't seen proof yet that DA Terminators will be that much more useful than SM Terminators.

Without buffing using a Librarian, the White Scar jink saves 2/3 of the time versus 3/4 with the Ravenwing Jink Re-Roll. Not to mention the fact that with the new C:SM Librarius Conclave, White Scars can get the same benefits of the DA Librarius Conclave and can have all their Librarians on bikes as opposed to DA needing to have Ezekiel hang out somewhere on foot.

However, the Speed of the Raven rule means you get to do this and you get to fire at full effect after jinking. Okay, that could be worth the points. Jinking with no decrease in shooting next round? I can be on board with that.

I dont know how you got 1.67 points per model when every model has a 5 point item. fair enough you will probably only use it once per squad but no matter how many die, someone still has it and if you combat squad you effectively have 2.

plus formations......

 jokerkd wrote:
I dont know how you got 1.67 points per model when every model has a 5 point item. fair enough you will probably only use it once per squad but no matter how many die, someone still has it and if you combat squad you effectively have 2.

plus formations......

Hm. Good point. I had to go back to C:SM and look at the teleport homers, you're right. I had calculated it as only one member of the squad having a teleport homer rather than all of them getting one. Still, it's a very list-dependent use of points. If you're only running RW or using RW/Greenwing (which has gotten more attractive) and not DW, then it's still points better used elsewhere.

White scars have to have their own edge to stil get people to play them, but for me it's a no brainer. black knights are the best bikes in the game imo and ravenwing have black knights

fluff wise WS are better riders. DA are promoted to RW just for asking to many questions lol

 jokerkd wrote:
White scars have to have their own edge to stil get people to play them, but for me it's a no brainer. black knights are the best bikes in the game imo and ravenwing have black knights

fluff wise WS are better riders. DA are promoted to RW just for asking to many questions lol

Debatable, as a chapter WS are much better riders, but the ravenwing bikers are... Very good at driving their chosen mode of transportation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.

We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,

We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.

Let's look this over, though.

Codex: Space Marines - White Scar Chapter Tactics - Space Marine Biker
Costs 21 points, gets Hit and Run, Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks

Codex: Dark Angels - Ravenwing Biker
Costs 25 points, gets Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, and Re-roll Jink Save


So, the value of the Hit and Run cancels each other out. Teleport Homers cost 5 points each, so depending on how many bikes you have in your squad could be valued at less than a point each to 1.67 points per model. That assumes that you're running the army in conjunction with Terminators otherwise the Teleport Homers are wasted points. Giving that the benefit of the doubt, are Scout and the Jink Re-Roll worth a little over 2 points per model? Yeah, I could agree with that. But you're paying a tax for using Terminators. And I haven't seen proof yet that DA Terminators will be that much more useful than SM Terminators.

Without buffing using a Librarian, the White Scar jink saves 2/3 of the time versus 3/4 with the Ravenwing Jink Re-Roll. Not to mention the fact that with the new C:SM Librarius Conclave, White Scars can get the same benefits of the DA Librarius Conclave and can have all their Librarians on bikes as opposed to DA needing to have Ezekiel hang out somewhere on foot.

However, the Speed of the Raven rule means you get to do this and you get to fire at full effect after jinking. Okay, that could be worth the points. Jinking with no decrease in shooting next round? I can be on board with that.

Another thing you may not have taken into effect, RW armies can get fairly easy access to+1 cover save in an area. Giving normal bikes a 3+ at worse and black knights a 2+

So...
Vengeance down 20 pts, 3 HP, +12" range.

Nephilim down to 170pts.

The Vengeance looks tempting now. Dropping a Large Blast onto something out of retaliation range with 33% more HP and a 20pts cost reduction...

Nephilim remains firmly "meh". Even with S7 I can't see two of them bringing down anything reliably. Maybe they have a SR that lets them fire all weapons at once?
Like now, one nephilim will deal .74hp for 2 turnsto a jinking AV12 flyer... with lascannons. After that... you might as well throw it away,

 Brillow80 wrote:
With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.

So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!

Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

It changes the weapon to a Sx2 Ap2, and the smite effect only allows the model to swing with one attack. So one S8, Ap2, at Initiative attack per model.

So one of the main selling points of DWK was turned into a clutch. 5 Attacks just doesn't cut it with a 200+ pts unit.
Sad.
Granted, most of the time it was overkill, but it should have been S10 at least or half attacks, so you get 2 on the charge.

 Thairne wrote:
So...
Vengeance down 20 pts, 3 HP, +12" range.

Nephilim down to 170pts.

The Vengeance looks tempting now. Dropping a Large Blast onto something out of retaliation range with 33% more HP and a 20pts cost reduction...

Nephilim remains firmly "meh". Even with S7 I can't see two of them bringing down anything reliably. Maybe they have a SR that lets them fire all weapons at once?
Like now, one nephilim will deal .74hp for 2 turnsto a jinking AV12 flyer... with lascannons. After that... you might as well throw it away,

Disagree

It forces enemy fliers to jink, and is very effective at cutting down FMC (much more so than it was before)and let's face it. 75% of the time, most flyers used now are FMCs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thairne wrote:
So one of the main selling points of DWK was turned into a clutch. 5 Attacks just doesn't cut it with a 200+ pts unit.
Sad.
Granted, most of the time it was overkill, but it should have been S10 at least or half attacks, so you get 2 on the charge.

You still wreck a unit of meganobs, or anything else T4.

I do agree on str10 though

 raiden wrote:
[
Disagree

It forces enemy fliers to jink, and is very effective at cutting down FMC (much more so than it was before)and let's face it. 75% of the time, most flyers used now are FMCs

Well I mostly face a flying nurgle DP and heldrakes.
The DP with its 2+ cover will laugh it off, whereas the Drakes won't even jink with a 5++ and IWND the damage back anyway.
So the Nephilim is pretty dead weight to me in the AA department - at least it will reliably arrive on T2 and maybe blast some Nurgle Bikers of the table.

 raiden wrote:
[
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You still wreck a unit of meganobs, or anything else T4.

I do agree on str10 though

Which a standard unit of TH/SS termies for, as far as we know, 20 points cheaper and double to triple the attacks can do as well. Although with T4 and at I1.

Regarding the Teleport Homer, it's probably at least two homers' worth per unit. The area covered by the unit is significantly larger than a single homer, making your DS drops much harder to predict / counter, plus you have backups in case of casualties. At the very least, you should count the full cost for the two models furthest apart.

I don't think this has been posted on here yet but here's a sprue pic for the Interrogator Chaplain... The head's separate as is the power fist . Hello conversion opportunities!

Wow, look at the awesomeness that is that cape. The front torso and backpack look incredible, too.

Nice that the PF is separate, but it's way too awesome a sculpt not to use!

The only piece that looks a little disappointing to me is the crozius Arcanum.

Oh.. also, I wonder what Piece #2 is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

It changes the weapon to a Sx2 Ap2, and the smite effect only allows the model to swing with one attack. So one S8, Ap2, at Initiative attack per model.

This is much better than (S+2) x 2 -- you'd have S12 attacks, and that would be a little silly >.<

Piece number 2 is the little shield with the skull and key on that he had on his right shoulder, At the front

That's piece 9.
Piece 2 is the part in the bottom left corner. To me it looks like another bit of the cape (possibly the part that is under the shield?)

So far Deathwing seem to be the weakest link thus far. Hopefully there's more to be revealed about them.

Nocturnus wrote:
So far Deathwing seem to be the weakest link thus far. Hopefully there's more to be revealed about them.

Weakest from the leaks, but possibly the most broken thing in the codex from the hints.

We could very well be looking at the following scenario:

Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.
Top of turn 2 DW knights and termies get DStriked in without scatter, shoot with split fire(maybe even run) and assault that same turn.
Bikes shoot at full Bs and assault.
Don't even want to think about Dreds doing the same thing (perfectly possible).

That could be the strongest beta strike army in the game.

The whole thing is looking pretty meh to me, granted we have to wait until we can read the book as a whole and see exactly how the special rule shake out.

Standard DW units seem to have taken a hit, and while their point cost has gone down from the last book, its actually gone up relative to the SM codex by 1 point per model.

RW seems to have access to buffet of special rules, but if the rule are dependant on detachments and formations they may be a bit more difficult then initially thought to capitalize on.

The nephilim and the vengeance are still rubbish. The dark talon is cool now, but it doesn't solve our anti air problem.

DWKs just had their problems tweaked a little, not fixed. Black Knights are hopefully still awesome in concept, but definitely way too expensive.

This book is going to raise the power level of DAs relative to the last 6-9 months releases, still leaving them at the end of the pack.

Dreds do benefit from Deathwing Assault if they're venerable.

So yes, DA is now all about the RW and DW interaction, which I love dearly.
Our gimmicks are strong (Stasis Bomb, Black Knights, Ravenwing Shenanigans, Mindworm and Interromancy, precision mix&matchTerminators) and the rest is roughly equal to C:SM.

Duds are the DWK's and still the Nephilim.

Spoletta wrote:
Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.

Okay, I'm hearing a lot of how Ravenwing will be largely immune to shooting. This isn't Invisibility they're getting. They're getting a cover save. It's a re-rollable cover save, but it's a cover save nonetheless. And because cover saves have already gotten so common, more and more armies are already loaded for bear with 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons.

Will it be good? Yes. I believe it will be effective. But I think only because people won't be able to pack enough 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons. But I think there will be some armies (Tau) that just won't care.

Sorry for the german.

Deathwing Strike Force
Obligatory
1 HQ
2 Elite

Optional
2 HQ
10 Elite
Only units with Deathwing SR or dedicated transports.
Ven Dread Units may only include 1 model and must use a Drop Pod.

Bring the fight to the Enemy:
Can shoot and run or run and shoot when arriving via Deep Strike

First Knight of Caliban:
If primary detachment, reroll warlord trait.

Summoned to War:
Must start in Deep Strike reserve. If your army contains a RW Attack Squad or a Ravenwing Strike force, you may choose to have them arrive automatically.
----

Ravenwing Strike Force
Obligatory
1 HQ
2 Fast Attack

Optional
2 HQ
1 Elite
10 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
All units must have the Ravenwing SR.

First Hunter:
If primary, reroll warlord trait.

Speed of the Raven:
All units may turbo boost and are considered jinking until your next turn. May fire weapons normally.

United Assault:
All units must be either placed in reserve or be deployed normally.
If in reserve, all units arrive automatically.


There we go, there come the Black Knights. Up to 12 units of them should be enough for anyone, though not in The Lion's Blade.

^Can anyone translate this?

EDIT: Never mind, I guess.

If the Shoot and Run and DW assault are tied to the formation, then I am wondering what non-formation Deathwing will have to set them apart from basic Termies/make up the extra points over C:SM ones. Fearless and Hatred doesn't seem worth 5 points to me, so I do hope they keep the TL-on-drop ability and Split Fire.

Ravenwing, on the other hand, seem insane with that formation. It seems they can Turbo-boost, fire and count as jinking all in one turn; is that a one-use thing or can they keep doing it?

Battle Demi Company:
Objective Secured

Fire Discipline:
Fire Overwatch with BS 3 if model has Grim Resolve
---

DW Redemption Force:
Same Shoot and Run rule.
Deathwing Assault in turn 2,3,4, including Dreads in Pods.
Also preferred Enemy(CSM).

RW Attack Squadron:
Scout
Only one LS in the unit allowed.

Attack Squad:
If the land Speeder or LS Vengeance scores a HIT, other models add 1 to their BS

Summon the Deathwing:
Basically a 12" Teleport Homer!

-----

RW Support Squad
At least 3 Landspeeders
Interceptor!
Strafing run!
Grim Resolve

Ravenshield:
within 24" friendly units can fire overwatch, even vehicles!

Support Squad:
Counts as 2 units if squadron is destroyed.

---

RW Silence Squad

Capture Run (read it for yourselfs, too much to type, was already leaked )

Fighter Escort:
Rerollable reserve roll for the entire formation.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
If the Shoot and Run and DW assault are tied to the formation, then I am wondering what non-formation Deathwing will have to set them apart from basic Termies/make up the extra points over C:SM ones. Fearless and Hatred doesn't seem worth 5 points to me, so I do hope they keep the TL-on-drop ability and Split Fire.

Ravenwing, on the other hand, seem insane with that formation. It seems they can Turbo-boost, fire and count as jinking all in one turn; is that a one-use thing or can they keep doing it?

They keep Split Fire for sure.
The Raventhingy is only in their first turn and they can't fire when they Turbo-boost. So it's a "next turn" thing.

Thanks for the leak and translation, guys

Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?

That's a shame.

Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit (One turn of run and shoot is pretty trivial, guards against blast markers I suppose) unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.