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 Slayer le boucher wrote:
But tarpitting a SHW or GC would be difficulte, the darn things are nearly invulnerable, you have to make explodes damages to the Walkers, and GC as a huge amount of Wounds, plus the Stomps attacks really helps to clear ennemy units.

Damaging it isn't the point. Let's say I charge a titan with a blob of guardsmen (with commissars to ensure they never fail their morale checks). The titan can't kill them fast enough to get out of combat before it misses a shooting phase or two, and may not even be able to escape combat before the game ends (especially when many Apocalypse games only last 2-3 turns). Since a titan's entire purpose is to kill things by shooting that means that the tarpit unit has effectively removed the titan from the game.

In the old Apocalypse rules this wasn't a problem because you always had to fall back after ending a round of combat with a superheavy vehicle or GC, which would free it to act normally during its own turn and made attacking one with a tarpit completely pointless.

Well don't forget that if a unit is in CC with a unit that has no means to harm it in any way, they automatically fallback, or something like this can't really remember, its the "Our weapons doesn't work" rule, or is it "Our weapons are ineffective"?..., can't remember.

Sigmundr wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Wuuuuut? We pay round 170 more points for the same stuff and stats we had before? I know the super rokkits became large blast but as far as I remember we lost co-axial on our super-gatler. Games workshop reaaaaaaaally wants to nerf the older kits don't they? Good thing we can just reprice it appropriately and use IA8 and equivalents instead. Bunch of spankers GW are > I bet Ward had something to do with this....

Owning the IA8 book means I never take a stock stompa. for that same 770ish I get a klawstompa that wrecks face in close combat with a power field and a deff arsenal for 3d6 lascannon shots. I suppose the blast rule was to get around supa rokkits being the best AA without skyfire.

So can we still take the IA8 kustom stompa rules? The new apoc book doesn't invalidate them or anything? I'm assuming we just change supa rokkits in the IA8 book to large blast then to coincide with the new rules?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Well don't forget that if a unit is in CC with a unit that has no means to harm it in any way, they automatically fallback, or something like this can't really remember, its the "Our weapons doesn't work" rule, or is it "Our weapons are ineffective"?..., can't remember.

All that rule does is give you the option to fail a morale test. You're not forced to fall back.

Yes you can use the old formations and datasheets by just converting the Structure points to HP's, the ratio is 1/3, One Structure point=3HP.

Now for using an old version of a formation/SH that had a new version in the book, its houseruling, gotta see if the other players agreed to this, if they do, then nothing keeping you from doing it.

About tarpiting Titans and such, well if your Reaver titan who's all waaaay back in the field on his table border gets tarpitted in CC, then i have bad news for you, you are allready loosing the game.

And the event of ennemy units who are fast enough or use an asset to come close enough, you should always keep some foot units to guard the Titan feets.

But then again it all depends on how the battle goes.

I think the Redoubt was solely put in place for deamons flying circus, csm heldrakes and perhaps necron scyths. Lets face it those armies just hijacked the flying rules and changed the game, mostly the heldrake. Automated targeting is fine really, lets face it.
HOWEVER since it cant be manned, does that mean your opponent cannot take it over? like he otherwise could your Icarus las cannon or quad gun?

I wish they would make at least some greater attempt at point costing the Titan weapons. Many of the weapons just seem outright worse and have no redeeming features, not even cost. Example is the Revenant. Exchanging its pulsars for sonic lances is a downgrade but gives no discount/savings in points.

Utterly baffling too is the removal of the Phantom D-Cannon's ignoring of void shields ability. The whole point of that was to allow it to pose a threat to shielded Titans, which can now comfortably laugh off the "mere" 1 D shot the D-Cannon now puts out. Phantoms with dual pulsars seems to be the only way to go, especially given how Warhounds are walking around with dual turbo-lasers and Reavers with las-blasters.

Sigmundr wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Wuuuuut? We pay round 170 more points for the same stuff and stats we had before? I know the super rokkits became large blast but as far as I remember we lost co-axial on our super-gatler. Games workshop reaaaaaaaally wants to nerf the older kits don't they? Good thing we can just reprice it appropriately and use IA8 and equivalents instead. Bunch of spankers GW are > I bet Ward had something to do with this....

Owning the IA8 book means I never take a stock stompa. for that same 770ish I get a klawstompa that wrecks face in close combat with a power field and a deff arsenal for 3d6 lascannon shots. I suppose the blast rule was to get around supa rokkits being the best AA without skyfire.

Then new stompa datasheet is just sad. More expensive, less guns. It can shoot a warhound to death in about 17 rounds, the warhound can kill it in 1 round. I'll also be using the FW rules. Just stupid not to.

The skullhammer also got screwed. Not fast anymore, not open topped.

I like the Apocalypse book, but hate what they did with the orks.

The titans are horribly underpriced and the Str D weapons make it far worse.

Stock Guardsmen can't charge Titans, since you can't charge a vehicle that you can't hurt. Throw some melta bombs on there and it's a different story, but yeah.

Got my collector's edition today. Very happy with it

Could you give us all a hint of the formations from the other warzone if that's okay?

I don't understand why GW is only releasing the rules for the Vengeance Weapon Battery & Firestorm Redoubt in the box. I thought they'd be in the Apoc book, but at least in my ibooks version I only see rules for the Aquila Strongpoint (as well as a few 'formations' that use them, but not their actual rules). I mean, hell they're not even selling the rules on ibooks for some reason. Its really odd.


And it does seem as though GW has totally and completely given up with this edition of Apoc. I would be okay with the Destroyer weapon change if they were incredibly rare and expensive, but having a Warhound basically have 4 Destroyer weapons for only 700+ points means Warhounds beat everything for their points cost, and just ridiculously so. Tying them up in combat now seems like the only real plan of attack.

Its just crazy. D-weapons either should have been changed to be really effective against Titans and Gargantuan Creatures (but not so good against lesser creatures and vehicles) or they should be insanely expensive and rare. Yet they basically kept the one points cost titan concept and allow players to pick any weapons for free, when the D-weapons are now even more of a no-brainer than they ever were. It is just nutty.


Finally, this book leaves a bunch of FW stuff in complete limbo...stuff like why is the Thunderhawk Gunship only for Space Marines now? Why were the only things left out of the old Apocalypse book the (standard) Brass Scorpion and the Plaguereaper (the Nurgle Baneblade)?

I really love the simplification they did with the Super-Heavy and Gargantuan Creature rules a LOT, but then they go throw it all way by not pricing D-Weapons appropriately at all.

Hang on does chaos get a warhound in the book? (mines in the post and aus post is rubbish) and did they really say loyalist stuff cant be used by CSM?... though Yak there is the rule that superheavies are usable by everyone. so i spose that gets around it. cos i aint benching my thunderhawk lol

About the Thunderhawk, CSm can use it, has it is sais on the first page of the Chaos Section.

It says that CSM can use all the Imperials datasheets and formation.

Look at Page 118, Writing History thingy.

I know that this text box is generally ignored by many poeple in the Rulebook or codexes, but here it has some precious informations.

With this CSM uses Imperial stuff, Orks can use anything( even Cron or Tau stuffs, if it is correctly converted), Taus can use IG stuff for Auxillairies, and even NIds can use Imperial datasheets with Genestealer Cult vibe.

The only ones that don't really have an excuse of doing so are Crons and Eldars .

Ah yes, the forging the narrative boxes, that does clear things up nicely, thanks for that (missed those on my first read through).

And no, there is no specific CSM Warhound in this book. Those rules still technically exist in IAA 2nd edition. Or I guess you can take a 'traitor' version of the Imperial one from the Apoc book if you wanted (which it seems like you would).

I understand that Apocalypse is not intended to be competitive but if you include point costs, they should make make some sense. This is not even about WAAC players, stupid point costs will lead to players making unbalanced armies by accident. If point costs are not connected to the usefulness or power of the thing in the game then why even have them? Of course players can agree to limit destroyer weapons and other OP stuff, but if balancing the armies relies on the players analysing the options and then deciding what is OK to take and what not, then the designers have not done their job. I understand the designers are just people and it might be difficult to predict power of certain combinations, but such a basic thing as comparing individual weapons shouldn't be that hard.

Very saddened yet not surprised at how much effort they didn't put into this book. I sorta wrote off this version of the apoc rulebook due to the writing of the rulebook and current codices but I figured it would given inspiration for my groups own custom rules..

The change to strength D is just ridiculous and I plan to simply make it a weapon property that applies to super heavies and gargantuan creatures.

 yakface wrote:
Why were the only things left out of the old Apocalypse book the (standard) Brass Scorpion and the Plaguereaper (the Nurgle Baneblade)?

Neither of those two things has a kit you can buy on the shelf. And no, the FW Brass Scorpion is different. It's a bigger Brass Scorpion.

No kit? No rules.

Welcome to post-CHS Games Workshop.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Welcome to post-CHS Games Workshop.

Personally, I think it would've happened regardless. They were already going that way with the terrain and tables before that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 yakface wrote:
Why were the only things left out of the old Apocalypse book the (standard) Brass Scorpion and the Plaguereaper (the Nurgle Baneblade)?

Neither of those two things has a kit you can buy on the shelf. And no, the FW Brass Scorpion is different. It's a bigger Brass Scorpion.

No kit? No rules.

Welcome to post-CHS Games Workshop.

Yeah, but the fortress of arrogance is in there, which is just a custom baneblade same as the plaguereaper.

The brass scorpion really isn't needed anymore since they have the FW one, but not including the plague reaper seems like an odd omission given literally every other unit either had newer IA rules for it in the interim or is included in this new book.

Is there any kind of Soul Grinder/Defiler formation or perhaps a Forgefiend formation?

I got a look at the rulebook and templates today. The templates are really flimsy. Expect the tabs on the big one to break pretty quickly.

And I'm really annoyed that the big Necron formation isn't one Money Vault + 3-8 Monliths. It's a flat out 8 monoliths. I mean who the hell just has 8 Monoliths floating around?

 yakface wrote:
Yeah, but the fortress of arrogance is in there, which is just a custom baneblade same as the plaguereaper.

But they sell that.

Every formation. Every big thing. Every bit of terrain. If they have rules, they sell it. If they don't, they don't.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Is there any kind of Soul Grinder/Defiler formation or perhaps a Forgefiend formation?

The collectors edition has the pandorax warzone supplement, which has the plaguereaper, tower of skulls, greater brass scorpion and daemon forge... So was very worth it imho

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean who the hell just has 8 Monoliths floating around?

No one, BUY MOAR.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean who the hell just has 8 Monoliths floating around?

No one, BUY MOAR.

Sarcasm aside it's not unheard of to loan models for bigger games to other players --- though tracking down 3-4 necron players all willing to donate their monoliths would be very difficult.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean who the hell just has 8 Monoliths floating around?

No one, BUY MOAR.

Sarcasm aside it's not unheard of to loan models for bigger games to other players --- though tracking down 3-4 necron players all willing to donate their monoliths would be very difficult.

Yeah. I'd probably house rule that it's a "shared formation" or something(unless we were using points limit) so that everyone can contribute to an absolutely absurd idea.

I do, i have 10 Monoliths, got alot of them cheap in bundle deals off ebay, 8 of them are made (just the right amount lol) and the other few i was thinking of using for terrain pieces.

 Platuan4th wrote:
No one, BUY MOAR.

I already did. I have 4. I thought that would be enough.

I don't even know why you'd want to field it anyway. Monoliths on their own are bad and AFAIK it only buffs the Tesseract Vault + grants inv save. All people will do is immediately snipe the Vault with any S D weapon and then you're boned. I miss the old Monolith formation.

My local GW (Cincinnati) posted this up last night. Inspired. Right or wrong I'm all about making up my own formations/rules/etc. Apoc is really just a bity of structured chaos anyways.