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 ductvader wrote:

omerakk wrote:
If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?

I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

Things some opponents have not realised about my Tyranids:
- Just because has a gun doesn't mean it can't hold its own in close combat
- You don't actually need to kill my 30 Termagant unit, Synapse creatures are a higher priority
- My Exocrine isn't as big a threat as my Carnifices, you should probably be shooting them instead
- There are very few times in which moving closer to a Tyranid army is a good idea
- It is, in fact, impossible for me to build a Tyranid list as cheesy as Tau
- I don't have grenades on anything, forcing me to charge through terrain is big deal

Battle Anecdote time!

Last night i played 1500 points vs a Loganwing list.

He had
Logan
2x10 Wolf guard with TDA, 2x combi-meltas, cyclone
One of the Wolf Guard was Arjac Rockfist
1x6 long fangs with 5x Missile Launchers, and a flamer on the sarge
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

I had showed up with my "Bugs in a Box" list that consisted of:

Swarmlord w/ 1x Tyrant Guard
13x Genestealers
7x Genestealers
3x Hive Guard
1x Zoanthrope
2x1 Biovores
Endless Swarm:
3x Warriors - deathspitters
2x10 Termagants - fleshborers
1x10 Termagants - devourers
2x10 Hormagaunts- Toxin Sacs
1x10 Hormagaunts - no upgrades
Bastion - Ammo Store, Escape Hatch

So at the beginning of the fight I felt pretty confident as I had 9 scoring units compared to his 2. Then we rolled the mission - 2...Purge the Alien! Suddenly it went from an easy match up to i needed to table this guy to win. I placed my bastion midfield, about 1" from the center line, and he won the roll to go first.

Quick note - i rolled Paroxysm on both my Zoey and Swarmy - this was key throughout the battle. As was Psychic Scream, which i'll get to near the end.

Turn 1 - Due to night fight, he only managed to kill a handful of hormagaunts from 2 of the 3 broods. His vindicator took a shot at the bastion but didn't penetrate (lucky me). My turn, i managed to get paroxysm off on both his units of wolf guard, making them WS3. The genestealer brood of 13 bailed out of the bastion, about 8" from his wolf guard and 4" from the vindicator. Warp Lance from Swarmlord failed to destroy the vindicator, so i went after it (with furious charge from swarmy) with the genestealers. 40 attacks later, it was a wreck but my brood was tightly clumped. Biovores killed maybe 1 long fang.

Turn 2 - His wolf guard with logan attached kill 9 genestealers from the large brood (the smaller brood of 7 was hiding behind some BLOS terrain). However, the 4 remaining ones were behind the vindicator husk and prevented his charge. The other unit of wolf guard finished off a hormagaunt brood, with arjac's hammer doing the final wound. Very cinematic. That brood would not return via endless swarm. The long fangs threw out some frag missiles and killed a few termagants, and that was about it.

My turn 2 was when the hammer needed to fall. I paroxysm'd logan's unit to WS2, and ignored the other unit for now. I moved 2 hormagaunt units, a warrior brood (they had gotten into the bastion via the escape hatch after the genestealers bailed out turn 1, and disembarked this turn netting them +18" movement over 2 turns) and both genestealer broods into postion to assault logan's unit. He had a heavy flamer within, so i declared charge first with my naked hormagaunts - he opted not to overwatch, and i then proceeded to fail my charge. Damn you random charge lengths! He did overwatch the second hormagaunt brood but only killed 3, and they made it into CC. The genestealer units both made base contact, as did the 3 warriors.

For brevity's sake i'll fast-forward here - this multiple-melee lasted for the entire rest of the game. Thanks to paroxysm he took apart the tiny units very slowly as the genestealer's rending claws picked at his wolf guard bit by bit.

By turn 5, swarmlord was ready to join the battle and finish off the other wolf guard unit. He cast "psychic scream" and it successfully passed - i then rolled 6, 6 on Logan grimnar (who was alone by this time) and he failed his invulnerable saves - BAHAHAHA. Swarmlord charged and challenged Arjac to deadly battle - sadly, his storm shield held for a turn and he put 2 wounds on swarmy. Then, on turn 6 he and swarmlord Double-KO'ed each other in a very cinematic finish. The rest of the wolf guard and long fangs had been systematically picked apart by weight of dice forcing saves, so my opponent ended the game with no models left.

Tyranid Victory!

I don't always run a swarm army, but i do think it's very fitting to have Swarmlord in charge when i do.

How did you get a shot at the Vindicator on turn 1 with Warp Lance? Did he foolishly move directly toward your Swarmlord?
(12" deploy + 6" move + 18" range = 36", so can't reach into his deployment zone)

Also, I'm pretty sure that disembarking from a Bastion, even with the Escape Hatch, prevents you from assaulting that turn.

rigeld2 wrote:
How did you get a shot at the Vindicator on turn 1 with Warp Lance? Did he foolishly move directly toward your Swarmlord?
(12" deploy + 6" move + 18" range = 36", so can't reach into his deployment zone)

Also, I'm pretty sure that disembarking from a Bastion, even with the Escape Hatch, prevents you from assaulting that turn.

Actually, disembarking from any building allows for assault with the Stronghold ruleset...but using the hatch is the only thing that stops you from being able to do so.

Ah - missed the "Repel the Enemy" rule.
But yes, Escape Hatch explicitly says it doesn't apply.

Just a clarification from the white dwarf- only troops from a Battle Forge list have objective secured unless I'm mistaken.

rigeld2 wrote:
Ah - missed the "Repel the Enemy" rule.
But yes, Escape Hatch explicitly says it doesn't apply.

Right, let me explain how i did it a little better:

The bastion is outside of my DZ, with the main door facing towards the enemy DZ.
The escape hatch is 12" from the back edge of the building, placing it about 7" from my table edge in my own DZ.
The genestealers used "infiltrate" to start deployed inside the building.

His turn one, yes, he did move forward on foot with everything.

My turn one i disembarked the genestealer unit (the other had infiltrated behind BLOS terrain). With the bastion now empty, my warriors used the escape hatch in my DZ to enter it. On turn 2 they disembarked from the regular door, so they could assault with the repel the enemy rule. So their total movement from the table edge to the escape hatch was 6:", the bastion is just shy of 6" wide so when they disembarked their total movment from the escape hatch was actually closer to 24" (12" to bastion edge, 6" bastion width, 6" disembark move) . It's a pretty good slingshot tactic but it takes 1 turn to set up.

Edit - also deployment was dawn of war, hammer and anvil would have changed a lot of things regarding range and tactics.

I just posted my fan made version of the 6th edition Codex with some modifications.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594879.page
I invite you to read it and to comment if you want.

omerakk wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

omerakk wrote:
If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?

I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...

But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.

Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.

I don't think its worth taking the middleground.

 SHUPPET wrote:

omerakk wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

omerakk wrote:
If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?

I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...

But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.

Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.

I don't think its worth taking the middleground.

Again, Battle Forged only gives Objective Secured to Troops.

So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!

I think Skyblight is just as good, but for different reasons. Gargoyles are equal to most troops now, but FMCs are even better. It's a net step sideways, but the best part is now in the BRB not the formation, making it more likely to be accepted.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

omerakk wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

omerakk wrote:
If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?

I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...

But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.

Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.

I don't think its worth taking the middleground.

Again, Battle Forged only gives Objective Secured to Troops.

Oh...very nice Troops is an area where we traditionaly dominate. Add Objective secured, and Bugs get even better! Heck infiltrating Genestealers might even start making sense again. (and Tervigons might be worth their point cost )

Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.

bodazoka wrote:
So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!

GW giveth and GW taketh away...

Apparently snap fire shots are at BS-2 now.

bodazoka wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!

GW giveth and GW taketh away...

Apparently snap fire shots are at BS-2 now.

If only Hive Guard were still BS4.

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.

This. Troops are the weakest point of the army, and if they are the only things that get objective secured in Battleforged, I think I will be unbound every list. Not because I want crazy gak, just because I'd rather not take any troops.

It's definitely because I play horde or semi-horde but I love our troops.

The mighty termagant is not what he was in 5th...which was insanely powerful with an Adrenal/Toxin Tervigon...but he still deals out some damage.

We'll soon see how the book changes with subtle USR rewordings.

So "insanely powerful" that almost nobody ever took above the minimum amount per squad, and even then only because they unlocked Tervigon's as troops.

Balanced in 5th ed is what they almost were. Were in need of the points reduction they recieved. However, Tervigon nerf makes them pretty mediocre again.

If only Toxin Sacs made shooting attacks poisoned as well.

Since we get a codex every edition, do you think we will get a 7th edition codex......


Also I have a feeling we may begin to feel the pain of not having purchasable mastery levels when the new psychic phase is revealed.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If only Toxin Sacs made shooting attacks poisoned as well.

Wait. Maybe the poisoned rule will change.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

Different folks play different I tend to run 5+ Troops no matter what the point level, and one of them is often a Tervigon. I have found that having lots of Troops gives me a tabletop, as well as a psychological edge. Some folks build out with minimal Troops (Terv+Big Brood, done!) but I feel they are missing a play. Making the Girlz "Objective secured" makes them even more powerful, once I hit a objective, you'll have to come get me I think this will improve Tyranids chances to take the blue ribbon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.

It depends on what, and how you compare. One on one? Sure. But when I look across the table at say Spess Marines, I see two Tac Squads, likely combat sqd'd out. I run 5+, one a Tervigon, I might have 9 Troops in play, by the end. That quantity, is a quality all its own. Short of Orks (that see little play these days) nobody competes with Nids for putting Troops on the table. AM/IG could compete, but they spend points on shiney tanks, and other distractions

But I suppose it depends on play style...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If only Toxin Sacs made shooting attacks poisoned as well.

Word, even if only spine fists ('cause it's fluffy )

omerakk wrote:

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

I think that would be a definite "yes".

Why is it still good?

1. You can still remain a Battle-forged army and get its bonuses.

2. Gargoyles who can't be contested (except probably by other Bound troops, depending on the FAQ's).

3. Respawning scoring units.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Battle Anecdote time!

Last night i played 1500 points vs a Loganwing list.

Spoiler:

He had
Logan
2x10 Wolf guard with TDA, 2x combi-meltas, cyclone
One of the Wolf Guard was Arjac Rockfist
1x6 long fangs with 5x Missile Launchers, and a flamer on the sarge
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

I had showed up with my "Bugs in a Box" list that consisted of:

Swarmlord w/ 1x Tyrant Guard
13x Genestealers
7x Genestealers
3x Hive Guard
1x Zoanthrope
2x1 Biovores
Endless Swarm:
3x Warriors - deathspitters
2x10 Termagants - fleshborers
1x10 Termagants - devourers
2x10 Hormagaunts- Toxin Sacs
1x10 Hormagaunts - no upgrades
Bastion - Ammo Store, Escape Hatch

So at the beginning of the fight I felt pretty confident as I had 9 scoring units compared to his 2. Then we rolled the mission - 2...Purge the Alien! Suddenly it went from an easy match up to i needed to table this guy to win. I placed my bastion midfield, about 1" from the center line, and he won the roll to go first.

Quick note - i rolled Paroxysm on both my Zoey and Swarmy - this was key throughout the battle. As was Psychic Scream, which i'll get to near the end.

Turn 1 - Due to night fight, he only managed to kill a handful of hormagaunts from 2 of the 3 broods. His vindicator took a shot at the bastion but didn't penetrate (lucky me). My turn, i managed to get paroxysm off on both his units of wolf guard, making them WS3. The genestealer brood of 13 bailed out of the bastion, about 8" from his wolf guard and 4" from the vindicator. Warp Lance from Swarmlord failed to destroy the vindicator, so i went after it (with furious charge from swarmy) with the genestealers. 40 attacks later, it was a wreck but my brood was tightly clumped. Biovores killed maybe 1 long fang.

Turn 2 - His wolf guard with logan attached kill 9 genestealers from the large brood (the smaller brood of 7 was hiding behind some BLOS terrain). However, the 4 remaining ones were behind the vindicator husk and prevented his charge. The other unit of wolf guard finished off a hormagaunt brood, with arjac's hammer doing the final wound. Very cinematic. That brood would not return via endless swarm. The long fangs threw out some frag missiles and killed a few termagants, and that was about it.

My turn 2 was when the hammer needed to fall. I paroxysm'd logan's unit to WS2, and ignored the other unit for now. I moved 2 hormagaunt units, a warrior brood (they had gotten into the bastion via the escape hatch after the genestealers bailed out turn 1, and disembarked this turn netting them +18" movement over 2 turns) and both genestealer broods into postion to assault logan's unit. He had a heavy flamer within, so i declared charge first with my naked hormagaunts - he opted not to overwatch, and i then proceeded to fail my charge. Damn you random charge lengths! He did overwatch the second hormagaunt brood but only killed 3, and they made it into CC. The genestealer units both made base contact, as did the 3 warriors.

For brevity's sake i'll fast-forward here - this multiple-melee lasted for the entire rest of the game. Thanks to paroxysm he took apart the tiny units very slowly as the genestealer's rending claws picked at his wolf guard bit by bit.

By turn 5, swarmlord was ready to join the battle and finish off the other wolf guard unit. He cast "psychic scream" and it successfully passed - i then rolled 6, 6 on Logan grimnar (who was alone by this time) and he failed his invulnerable saves - BAHAHAHA. Swarmlord charged and challenged Arjac to deadly battle - sadly, his storm shield held for a turn and he put 2 wounds on swarmy. Then, on turn 6 he and swarmlord Double-KO'ed each other in a very cinematic finish. The rest of the wolf guard and long fangs had been systematically picked apart by weight of dice forcing saves, so my opponent ended the game with no models left.

Tyranid Victory!

I don't always run a swarm army, but i do think it's very fitting to have Swarmlord in charge when i do.

Awesome job in a bad mission. Good to see Swarmy still put to good use.

bodazoka wrote:
So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!

Is that a confirmed rule for 7th?

If so, then that's a serious boost to FMC-spam lists, bugs and daemons.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

I think he was refering back to 5th Ed. tervigon nids.

But in all seriousness, our troops aren't so bad. 30 termagants in Synapse can still be quite good. I'll tarpit your Unbound Daemon Prince on an objective and still score!

bodazoka wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!

GW giveth and GW taketh away...

Apparently snap fire shots are at BS-2 now.

That'll help out Eldar and Marine armies. Fortunately for us, Tau are normally BS3.

 SHUPPET wrote:
So "insanely powerful" that almost nobody ever took above the minimum amount per squad, and even then only because they unlocked Tervigon's as troops.

Balanced in 5th ed is what they almost were. Were in need of the points reduction they recieved. However, Tervigon nerf makes them pretty mediocre again.

Well, that hasn't changed since 5th, when we were still taking min-sized gant units to unlock troop Tervigons. Just saying....

Eldercaveman wrote:
Since we get a codex every edition, do you think we will get a 7th edition codex......


Also I have a feeling we may begin to feel the pain of not having purchasable mastery levels when the new psychic phase is revealed.

The psychic phase is still one of our strengths. Unlike most armies which can take only 2 psykers at best, we (along with Daemons) can actually spam them. Yeah dual flyrants and triple zoanthropes FTW (all of which are Lvl 2)!

pinecone77 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Tyranids? Troops? Dominating?

Different folks play different I tend to run 5+ Troops no matter what the point level, and one of them is often a Tervigon. I have found that having lots of Troops gives me a tabletop, as well as a psychological edge. Some folks build out with minimal Troops (Terv+Big Brood, done!) but I feel they are missing a play. Making the Girlz "Objective secured" makes them even more powerful, once I hit a objective, you'll have to come get me I think this will improve Tyranids chances to take the blue ribbon.

pinecone77 wrote:
It depends on what, and how you compare. One on one? Sure. But when I look across the table at say Spess Marines, I see two Tac Squads, likely combat sqd'd out. I run 5+, one a Tervigon, I might have 9 Troops in play, by the end. That quantity, is a quality all its own.

pinecone77 wrote:
Short of Orks (that see little play these days) nobody competes with Nids for putting Troops on the table. AM/IG could compete, but they spend points on shiney tanks, and other distractions

Terv + Big Brood is pretty far from minimal troops.... thats about 350 points, our minimum troops is two Termagant squads at 80 points (well, 2 ripper squads at 78 points but as said - cartoonishly bad. 2 more points to give your troops special ability "possibility-to-actually-make-their-minimal-points-back" is the bees knees. Well worth splurging 2 points on.


Weighing up their value by comparing them at a 1 on 1, model to model basis with other troops obviously isn't sensible - but it's no less sensible than comparing it to 2 squads of space marines. For starters, Tac Marines are one of the more underpowered troop choices in the game. Second of all, you are comparing a situation where you spent (warning: I'm about to estimate, you were quite vague - you said 5 sets of troops and you are at 350 with the Tervigon and Brood as is), say at least 700 points on troops, compared to what sounds like say 200 points of SM - obviously you are going to have a stronger troop force. This is a terrible comparison. Why not compare it point per point value (say a 200 point unit to 200 point unit or something), and to a troop choice that is regarded as useful, as opposed to one that is regardless as overpriced crap. Tell me what you come back with.


Also, AM do spend their points on tank instead of their gribblies. It's the sensible thing to do. Just like Tyranid spends their points on MC's instead of Hormagants. Survivability really is key in such a shooty environment. And alot of the bigger units are just plain better. I'd take Termagants if Tervigons were the same as last dex. It's not that swarms are unusable - just that the swarm options we have just aren't very good


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

omerakk wrote:

And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"

The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?

I think that would be a definite "yes".

Why is it still good?

1. You can still remain a Battle-forged army and get its bonuses.

2. Gargoyles who can't be contested (except probably by other Bound troops, depending on the FAQ's).

3. Respawning scoring units.

Now that you mention respawning scoring units, battleforged 2x Endless Swarm + Trygon tunnel or 2 might be quite stupid with the new changes. Just a bunch of respawning, scoring, incontestable troops, coming back to whereever you want them on the field, in a meta that I'm sure is going to be gak like 8 riptides or 6 wraithknights

why isn't there any love for stealers? Every article I can find on the new book just leaves them out.....

 SHUPPET wrote:

Now that you mention respawning scoring units, battleforged 2x Endless Swarm + Trygon tunnel or 2 might be quite stupid with the new changes. Just a bunch of respawning, scoring, incontestable troops, coming back to whereever you want them on the field, in a meta that I'm sure is going to be gak like 8 riptides or 6 wraithknights

That would be hilariously funny and a big F-U to many of those Unbound lists.

That's why I am all for Battle-forged. Objectives Secured is going to play a huge role in the new edition.

just2fierce wrote:
why isn't there any love for stealers? Every article I can find on the new book just leaves them out.....

Because 6th nerfed the heck out of them. 7th might make them better once again, especially if they can consolidate from combat into combat, but we really don't know if that will happen. Overall, stealers lack survivability to shooting in an edition that is mostly shooty. It also doesn't help that many of the armies can ignore what little cover there is.

just2fierce wrote:
why isn't there any love for stealers? Every article I can find on the new book just leaves them out.....

Because all they're really good at is going to ground on objectives, but Ignores Cover is a much bigger threat than it used to be.