The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**jy2**

So much info in just a couple of days.

I'm just going to focus on some of the lists here.

luke1705 wrote:

2 Flyrants

Malanthrope
Bastion w/Comms Relay

10 Genestealers
10 Genestealers
10 Genestealers

25 Gargoyles
6 Raveners w/Rending Claws
Dimachaeron w/Tyrranocyte
Dimachaeron w/Tyrranocyte

Annnd I just realized that I don't have 4 FA slots.....HOWEVER, this is what Mucolids do for us guys. Oh you want to self ally? Well I can already do that in this list with 2 HQ and 3 troops. But say I only had 2 troops or needed 2 more. You're always going to bring 2 Flyrants, or at the very least 2 HQs (probably) so for 15 points we get an allied slot. For 30 (and 2 strength 8 ap 3 blasts mind you) we get a second CAD (if allowed). That is pretty powerful

Anyhow this list is probably not super good but everything sans the Dimachaerons will be in assault (or have failed their random charge length) by turn 2 in all likelihood. And on the opponent's turn 2 (if he went first) he'll have to not shoot at the Dimachaerons, otherwise he'll just be tied up in combat in the bottom of 2 and top of 3 anyways. Not a lot of players have the discipline to do that against 2 Dimachaerons. I hope you guys are sensing a theme with my lists by now haha

Overall, I am liking the threat overload that this type of list presents. The list has got the potential to be terrifying for some lists to handle. I'm also curious as to much more effective genestealers will become with the spores in the lists.

Verviedi wrote:
Is it a dick move to take this list in a 750 point game?

HQ-
Flyrant with TL BL Devs + eGrubs
Flyrant with TL BL Devs + eGrubs

Troops-
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists

Heavy Support-
Carnifex with TL BL Devs

It depends on your meta. If you are playing in a casual environment, then yeah, 2 flyrants at 750 can be too much for many people.

However, if the players that you normally play against are more experienced players who run somewhat competitive armies as well, then you're probably ok.

locarno24 wrote:
Hmmm....

Playing around with my list; if I slice it up a bit, I can fit in two Tyrannocytes.

From:

Combined Arms Detachment #1
HQ
Tervigon, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Tervigon, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Troops
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs, Scuttling Swarm
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs, Scuttling Swarm
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs, Scuttling Swarm
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants

To:

Combined Arms Detachment #1
HQ
Tervigon, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Tervigon, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Troops
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs, Scuttling Swarm
30 Termagants

Combined Arms Detachment #2
HQ
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs
Tervigon, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Electroshock Grubs,
Troops
14 Termagants
14 Termagants
Heavy Support
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte

Now, obviously that's sliced my termagant wall by over a third, but in return, I can fit in two tyrannocytes. Whilst Tervigons aren't exactly the most devastating of creatures, with crushing claws they can play can-opener fairly efficiently, and with electroshock grubs they can crowd control fairly well. Landing two in an area and spawning two gaunt units can leave a section of an enemy's deployment zone under fairly meaningful threat.

Yes, it takes them out of the battle line, but it's not like tervigons will really put any pressure on an enemy until turn 3 unless they come to me.

For that matter, stripping off all non-essntial biomorphs lets me cram in a third tyrannocite. That leaves only one controlling the 'ground swarm', which feels kind of vulnerable, but it means the deep strike is more likely to have some punch behind it.

I think the Tyrannofex should do pretty well as 'cyte fodder, too. with two templates - one of them torrent - it can make a right mess. Granted it struggles in assaults, but it has an unholy effective wall of death overwatch and it is T6 with 6 wounds and a 2+ save, which means it takes a bloody lot of killing!

Here's hoping for some new formations including the big beasties! If this blood angels/tyranid box proves to be a thing, then maybe there'll be some sanctus reach fashion books. Anything giving Tyrannocites an equivalent of Drop Pod Assault would be terrifying...

That's an interesting list. Not very balanced, but with that many bodies/tervigons on the floor, it will be problematic for many armies.

I'd recommend dropping at least 1 tervigon and adding some support elements like malanthropes or whatnot into your list.

Verviedi wrote:
Please tell me why this list will fail horribly at killing GKs.

HQ-
Flyrant with TL BL Devs + eGrubs (240)
Flyrant with TL BL Devs + eGrubs (240)

Troops-
Rippers w/ DS (45)
Rippers w/ DS (45)

Elites-
Venomthrope (45)
Zoanthrope (50)

Heavy Support-
Exocrine (170)
Mawloc (140)
Exocrine (170)

Yeah, that list should work fairly well against the Grey Knights.

Iechine wrote:

A tourney list for consideration:

1850
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro

Bastion w/coms
Venomthrope
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS

Exocrine w/Tyrannocite and Venom Cannons
Exocrine w/Tyrannocite and Venom Cannons
Mawloc
Mawloc

With points to spare...Its an obvious beta strike army. Perhaps lose a Mawloc for a large gargoyle brood for flexibility?

It's a pretty good list, though personally, I'd rather put something a little shorter in range into my tyrannocites. The exocrine already has a 30" range (up to 36" with Onslaught). It may be better to setup him up behind cover shooting than to pod him in where he's vulnerable to assault (or at least getting tied up). Units that benefit more from the pods are short-ranged shooters (i.e. dakkafex, pyrovores and t-fexes) and dedicated assault units or even the tervigon.

**SHUPPET**

Just to clear things up I'm not saying Genestealers are actually competitive or anything. But they have improved a LOT from a week ago

**tag8833**

SHUPPET wrote:
Just to clear things up I'm not saying Genestealers are actually competitive or anything. But they have improved a LOT from a week ago

Give it a shot, and let us know. Because to me, it looks like a less useful and less reliable variation on the genestealer formations.

**luke1705**

To be even more clear, I think that Genestealers got better because your opponent has to make a tough decision as to whether to deal with them or whatever came down in the pod. Putting Genestealers in the pod makes that math much easier for your opponent and will likely get them into combat even later, as they can turn 2 charge if the circumstances are right

**tetrisphreak**

Multiple threat overload, as coined by Jy2, has just amped up considerably for nid players with this pod release. The 15th can't arrive soon enough.

**chaos0xomega**

Pretty sure that he didn't coin the term, since I and others have been using it for years now, but that tactic definitely got a big boost with the new releases.

**tetrisphreak**

Ah. Sorry - I never noticed the term before reading Jy2's batreps.

But! The tyranids just got a huge speed boost to threaten our prey!

**SBG**

I'm irrationally excited about the possibility of dropping 3-4 spores in with Barbed Stranglers for absolutely ridiculous longer-range large blast spam.

I've never really run 'competitive' lists - one of my favorites is all Carnifexes and Walkrants with Stranglethorns - and an extra 15-20 auto-firing, scattering and somewhat uncontrollable large blasts is making me very happy. And now I have a reason to finish the three spore pods I had almost completed last year - this is a good week.

**chaos0xomega**

Yup, the current issue with nids is that for the most part threats operate on the same 'plane', as in they mostly approach along a similar vector from a similar direction at a relatively similar speed, and there really are only a few exceptions to this rule. A quality opponent can easily prioritize targets in these situations.

The spores mean that units that traditionally arrive to the party late due to their slowness can now be amongst the first to arrive, it completely screws with and changes the way your opponent has to prioritize

**jy2**

Basically, a little history on my philosophy of Maximum Threat Overload, or MTO.

I developed this philosophy back in 5th Edition with the "new" Necrons (well, new back then). Some of my earliest works where I mentioned it were:

12/16/11 - Who Says CSM Aren't Competitive? 2K Competitive Necrons vs Abaddon's Chaos Marines

12/28/11 - 2K Competitive - Jy2's Wraithwing Necrons vs Reecius' Imperial Guards

And the first time I actually used the term MTO in the title of one of my batreps:

01/03/12 - The Grey Knight Challenge Part I - 2K MTO Necrons vs Draigowing!

But it probably wasn't until Reece published an article on it on BoLS as well as his own Frontline Gaming blog (of which it was based on my game against him above) that it received more notoriety:

40K Tactics : Maximum Threat Overload Necrons

Now by no means am I the only one who came up with this strategy. I'm sure many people ran similar type builds back then and probably even before I started playing the game. And there definitely could be others who have coined similar names for their strategies. However, I believe I may have been the one to popularize the term 'MTO' through my battle reports as well as through Reece's article on it.

**SHUPPET**

Giving credit where it's due, I think Jy2 definitely popularised that term even if others were saying it

Actually using it with Nids though is the kind of opposite of what he does however and I think the term gets thrown around a lot because people want a more official way of calling their lists "badass".

**Noctem**

Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.

Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?

**SHUPPET**

Noctem wrote:
Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.

Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?

Doubtful on the last, the Dima is aggressive but pays far more than average per wound, just like Stealers, using them together will likely just give your opponent good targets for all their weaponry, whereas all Stealers will force cost ineffecient shooting from their AT if they try stop your tidal wave, and vice versa with all Dimas and anti infantry fire. Also, it allows them to focus whichever one of the units will be less threatening to their army, and you are better off not giving them this choice. Glass cannon units are better off taken in numbers, yeah it's spammy or whatever but it's part of mitigating their fragility. I know it sounds weird calling Dimas fragile, but look at it this way, it's the same amount of points as 3 Mawlocs each with the same durability, so there is a very relevant cost to the durability of your army when taking Dimas. It's about getting enough out of their aggression to make up for, mixing and matching different types of units puts too much options in your opponents hands to deal with it.

**mekugi**

I have a quick question.
If I take a bastion with an escape hatch and have a malanthrope inside it does the shrouded and synapse bubble also extend from the escape hatch?
Cheers

**Noctem**

SHUPPET wrote:
Noctem wrote:
Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.

Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?

Doubtful on the last, the Dima is aggressive but pays far more than average per wound, just like Stealers, using them together will likely just give your opponent good targets for all their weaponry, whereas all Stealers will force cost ineffecient shooting from their AT if they try stop your tidal wave, and vice versa with all Dimas and anti infantry fire. Also, it allows them to focus whichever one of the units will be less threatening to their army, and you are better off not giving them this choice. Glass cannon units are better off taken in numbers, yeah it's spammy or whatever but it's part of mitigating their fragility. I know it sounds weird calling Dimas fragile, but look at it this way, it's the same amount of points as 3 Mawlocs each with the same durability, so there is a very relevant cost to the durability of your army when taking Dimas. It's about getting enough out of their aggression to make up for, mixing and matching different types of units puts too much options in your opponents hands to deal with it.

That makes sense! I see myself picking up a second Dima... although I just picked up the Tau Y'Vahra heh.

**locarno24**

I'll be honest, If I was taking genestealers I'd reach for the Formation Detachments. If you use ruins in any meaningful quantity in your gaming group, Manufactorum Genestealers are superb, and really help with the whole 'threat overload' level.

Granted, you're almost certainly giving up first blood, but even then you're in a 4+ cover ruin, and can go to ground then use Dominion to stand back up again, provided you're not going to need to move (and with fleet, move through cover and setting up within 6" of the enemy, you shouldn't!)

The tervigon list - yeah, I realise I could make it substantially better by subbing out one tervigon for a pair of malanthropes and throwing shrouded across the whole army; it's one thing I've been thinking about for a while. Alternatively, putting one or more toxicrenes into the line provides a meaningful assault threat besides 'tons of bodies'.

Lastly, I've been wondering about the Leviathan Rising Incubator Nodes. My first response was that they're not great because you are essentially fielding a combined arms detachement - 1 x Tervigon, 3 x Termagants. You lose objective secured, but I tend to find the original broods get shot to buggery over the course of the game, so it's nice not to have to track which is which - and 3 ten strong broods is probably more tactically useful than one of thirty. I'm not sure about the Hyper-Progenitive command benefit, though; as whilst it makes broods a bit bigger (on average) it makes you a bit more likely to exhaust the tervigon (on average).

Neither is that big a deal, though. My main concern is that I'm not sure it can take tyrannocites - it's generally acknowledged that a squad in a formation can take a dedicated transport if it normally has that option, but a tyrannocite isn't a dedicated transport.

**L0rdF1end**

This is what I'm currently thinking of test running at 1500:

Flyrant, Dual Devs, E-Shock Grubs 240
Flyrant, Dual Devs, E-Shock Grubs 240

Mucolid Spore 15
Mucolid Spore 15

Venomthrope 45

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155

Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Toxicrene 160
Toxicrene 160

1490

Zero Objective secured units but it packs quite a punch.
Crones help with flyers and vector strike Wraith Knights, Broadsides, Serpents...
Toxicrenes really want to eat a Wraith Knight, 2+ cover saves when landing sitting behind a pod or in ruins.
I quite like the list because its a little less reliant on the Flyrants.

**Frozocrone**

L0rdF1end wrote:
This is what I'm currently thinking of test running at 1500:

Flyrant, Dual Devs, E-Shock Grubs 240
Flyrant, Dual Devs, E-Shock Grubs 240

Mucolid Spore 15
Mucolid Spore 15

Venomthrope 45

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155

Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Toxicrene 160
Toxicrene 160

1490

Zero Objective secured units but it packs quite a punch.
Crones help with flyers and vector strike Wraith Knights, Broadsides, Serpents...
Toxicrenes really want to eat a Wraith Knight, 2+ cover saves when landing sitting behind a pod or in ruins.
I quite like the list because its a little less reliant on the Flyrants.

I would probably change one of the Hive Crones to a Mawloc with Adrenal Glands, just to have a Pieplate so you can have some defence against Hordes - or at least can take out a lot of the horde before they tie up your Toxicrene.

In addition, an S6 Ap2 is always good to have for Terminators and stuff

**SHUPPET**

Toxicrenes in pods are actually likely to do more damage against hordes who generally have low armour. AP2 blasts are better for hitting elite units, however this isn't really Mawloc's design either, hes more of an excellently priced all rounder, the Exocrine is far more better for killing elite units, and otherwise the Toxicrene should be fine I think.

**L0rdF1end**

Yep, Mawlocs are a little too unreliable otherwise I would run them in every list.

I still run them in an 1850 Skyblight list but there I try to take advantage of a Lictor in reserve and start the Mawlocs on the board. They tunnel turn 2 and pop up next to the Lictor turn 3.
Not perfect but it's fun and normally enemy is far too distracted to kill the Lictor.

**SHUPPET**

The blast is definitely not reliable. It is however a pretty good added bonus as the model is costly pretty decently even without it. Definitely a well priced all rounder that can go in any list imo, cheap 6 T6 wounds with potential to threaten a lot of things or at worst case scenario be an excellent cheap DS tarpit

**locarno24**

Agreed. two poison (2+) pieplates make for pretty damn good crowd control, and with 6 attacks each and the ability to pop miasma if they get mobbed, they probably won't be tied up for long...

**L0rdF1end**

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed. two poison (2+) pieplates make for pretty damn good crowd control, and with 6 attacks each and the ability to pop miasma if they get mobbed, they probably won't be tied up for long...

Not to mention 30 shots from Death Spitters before he gets Tarpitted.
Crones and Flyrants can also aid to thin the crowd on the turn they drop in.

**beardman3000**

So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.

I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.

**tetrisphreak**

beardman3000 wrote:
So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.

I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.

Any melee unit that suffers from slow ground speed - warriors, dima/haruspex/toxi etc. Swarmlord is good too.

Any shooty unit that suffers from low range - dakka fexes, devilgants, zoeys, exocrine, tyrannofex.

**SHUPPET**

beardman3000 wrote:
So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.

I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.

What you really want is Living Artillery. Biovores wreck Orks and trade well with anything in Wolves, and Exocrines wreck any more elite infantry. Tyrannocytes not even going to be that great in this match up, they have to come to you regardless, as such the only real point to using one would be getting rear armour shots or pumping firepower into a backfield unit, I'd say Dakkafex or Exocrine for this role.

**locarno24**

Essentially - anything which doesn't deep strike or fly on its own.

I'd agree with the comment about devilgaunts - I don't have access to Hive Commander because I don't have a Hive Tyrant. If you do, however, it's a cheaper way to bring up those submachinegun toting critters.

Fex aren't bad, but since the 'cyte is limited to one model, I'd rather stick something bigger in. Dakkafex can make devourer range pretty swiftly anyway.

given that you'll be really in people's faces, is Bioplasma a thoughts worth looking at? Yes, all right, Exocrine bioplasma cannons fire a bigger blast a longer way - but if you're coming in by tyrannocyte with several melee carnifici, you can equip thrthem with bioplasma almost as an afterthought.

**tag8833**

locarno24 wrote:
Fex aren't bad, but since the 'cyte is limited to one model, I'd rather stick something bigger in. Dakkafex can make devourer range pretty swiftly anyway.

Because Dakkfexes and Dakkaflyrants are our best anti-tank, being able to drop a dakkafex behind a vehicle to get back armor sounds pretty good. Also, because Dakkafexes want to shoot instead of run, getting them to charge range is much slower than something like a Dimacharon.

**locarno24**

Hmmm....

Fair point.

So, Thinking about massed-tyrannocyte forces.

The key is what you start on the ground with. I was wondering if Deathleaper's Assassin Brood might be a good idea - 5 solo lictors and paranoia-boy himself. Just as a many-small-unit threat, it's unlikely the enemy can flatten them all in one turn, probably not in two, and solo lictor models are easy to hide and get close to the enemy.

On the other hand, it's also not far shy of 400 points.

I suspect drop-heavy forces aren't going to work because of the price per unit you're paying for heavy lift. Using spores to bring in two monstrous creatures instead of walking is affordable - much more than that really starts to bite into your budget.

**L0rdF1end**

locarno24 wrote:
Hmmm....

Fair point.

So, Thinking about massed-tyrannocyte forces.

The key is what you start on the ground with. I was wondering if Deathleaper's Assassin Brood might be a good idea - 5 solo lictors and paranoia-boy himself. Just as a many-small-unit threat, it's unlikely the enemy can flatten them all in one turn, probably not in two, and solo lictor models are easy to hide and get close to the enemy.

On the other hand, it's also not far shy of 400 points.

I suspect drop-heavy forces aren't going to work because of the price per unit you're paying for heavy lift. Using spores to bring in two monstrous creatures instead of walking is affordable - much more than that really starts to bite into your budget.

Exactly, points get out of control quickly.

A couple of pods I think is enough, perhaps different elements in the list so you can choose what to pod depending on army faced.
Or just dropping in something that's an all rounder like a DakkaFex.
Personally I'll be play testing the Toxicrenes in a pod for a while and see how that fairs.