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brother marcus wrote:
The problem with vanguard in 6th cc units either need to wipe out what they charge or have the durability to survive the counter attack, Non-BA vanguard can't do either

Sternguard are more expensive but I believe are the more effective unit by far IMO

Fixed.

Seriously, you'd be surprised what 5+ FNP, Furious charge or the ability to assault out of deepstrike can do.

I don't know the rules for BA Unfortunatly. And yea that's sounds way better than vanilla vanguard, but that's blood angles job :p

Ok hang on a sec I've just seen there is an honor guard as well. So that makes 3x variations - sternguard, vanguard and honor guard. I'm confused now

 kerikhaos wrote:
Ok hang on a sec I've just seen there is an honor guard as well. So that makes 3x variations - sternguard, vanguard and honor guard. I'm confused now

Blood Angels also have the Sanguinary Guard, veteran veterans.

Yeah I have those already. Aren't they best of the elites?

To just clarify on the various adjective-guard

Honour Guard: Generally bodyguards for a HQ character, cane take jump pack and have a Sanguinary Novitiate (basically a priest with slightly worse stats and no IC rule) included in the base cost, for a nice 6" FNP/FC bubble. The best loadout is probably giving the 4x melta or plasma and JP and using them as mobile antitank or anti-MC/TEQ/MEQ units respectively. You can kit them for melee but Vanguard, Sanguinary Guard and probably basic assault marines do this better.

Sanguinary Guard: come with JP stock, 2+ save and a master-crafted power weapon. Not much variety, they are just pure CC units, but unfortunately are too expensive and fragile to reliably use. Fluff (and model) wise they are the best of the Veterans, but in game are generally outclassed.

Vanguard Veterans: CC vets. Can assault out of DS if using Jump Packs, and can load up on special melee weapons. Some would say they are to expensive, but with just Jump Packs and maybe a power weapon or two they can make a nice surprise unit.

Sternguard: Unarguably the best vets, very shooty with ammo types for dealing with all targets. Can also take cheap combi-weapons and a drop pod for a T1 strike.

I got another question. What's the diff between these dreadnoughts -

Standard dreadnought

Furioso dreadnought

Venerable dreadnought

Death company dreadnought

Contemptor dreadnought ( are these bigger than the others?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
To just clarify on the various adjective-guard

Honour Guard: Generally bodyguards for a HQ character, cane take jump pack and have a Sanguinary Novitiate (basically a priest with slightly worse stats and no IC rule) included in the base cost, for a nice 6" FNP/FC bubble. The best loadout is probably giving the 4x melta or plasma and JP and using them as mobile antitank or anti-MC/TEQ/MEQ units respectively. You can kit them for melee but Vanguard, Sanguinary Guard and probably basic assault marines do this better.

Sanguinary Guard: come with JP stock, 2+ save and a master-crafted power weapon. Not much variety, they are just pure CC units, but unfortunately are too expensive and fragile to reliably use. Fluff (and model) wise they are the best of the Veterans, but in game are generally outclassed.

Vanguard Veterans: CC vets. Can assault out of DS if using Jump Packs, and can load up on special melee weapons. Some would say they are to expensive, but with just Jump Packs and maybe a power weapon or two they can make a nice surprise unit.

Sternguard: Unarguably the best vets, very shooty with ammo types for dealing with all targets. Can also take cheap combi-weapons and a drop pod for a T1 strike.

Thanks pal for the super details- makes perfect sense

 Paradigm wrote:
Favourite infantry unit: Either tactical squad or Sternguard vets. Both are versatile and durable, can be kitted for almost any role, and are very fun to build and paint.

Favourite vehicle: Probably the drop pod, as it gives you unmatched freedom in deployment and counter-deployment.

Favourite character: Captain with Teeth of Terra, Primarch's Wrath and Armour Indomitus. Fighty, shooty and hugely expensive!

I like this guy!

I like Tacticals as well, they're just so cool. Even if they are just there to die, I still like them. Sometimes some cool stuff happens, like for example a few games ago I was facing SW and Bjorn. Bjorn managed to flip over my Pred and was about to eat through the nearby Tac Squads when I got lucky on my next turn and was just barely able to explode him with my Combi-Melta Sarge... That guy earned a purity seal!

I also really like the Captains and Chapter Masters, I also run a Cap similar to the one above. Teeth of Terra, a Powerfist, and Termie Armour. People always laugh at the termie armour, but you know what? No one has ever been able to shoot him down after a DS yet, and he just annihilates squads like nobodies business. D3 + 1 attacks, +1 on the charge, that's potentially 8 attacks! I run my Chapter Master a little different, I give him Arti-Armour, the Shield Eternal and a Power Axe and use him to swat down other ICs.

I also really like the Stalker, AV12 and a 4 shot autocannon, with skyfire is really hard to beat for 65 points. I'm also kind of digging the Hunter too, consider this: It never misses, every turn there is a chance to get a big fat rear armour hit, plus the opportunity to stack up more Savant Locks. I'm thinking forcing a Flyer into Ongoing is as good as shooting it down, kind of a waste on FMCs though as they can remove the counters simply by entering close combat. Kind of highly specialized though, can't think of any other use for the Hunter, but the Stalker on the other hand... he can eat Xenos like crazy thanks to ap4!

To be honest though, I haven't seen a Space Marine I didn't like, maybe back in the day some of those older ones looked pretty shoddy but these days, pow! Them SM look damn good.

Characters - Arjac Rockfist and Darnath Lysander, primarily because they're the same guy, more or less. Arjac is written as a personal champion to Grimnar so that ups his badass rank considerably. Where as Lysander is the Captain of the first company, which automatically makes him an ass kicker of epic proportions.

In game reasons: They're both powerhouses of beatstick nastiness. Alone against most anything they'll stomp the competition and I love the models too.

Squads - Legion of the Damned and Vanguard Veterans. I love the ideas behind both squads, moreso the Veterans because of the whole "we tried jump packs, we like them A LOT" aspect they bring with the fluff. Legion of the Damned, seriously? You don't know why?

In game: Both are expensive and see little action in todays games but I have to say I love it when they're fielded. Awesome models and it's great to see LotD show up unannounced and burn a squad to ash.

Vehicle - Blood Angels Rhino or the Contemptor. Supercharged transport with NOS? Yeah, that sells it. Giant dreadnought that doesn't look like a box? Yeah, that sells that too.

In game: Nothing is better than stupidly fast transports. I've only ever seen two fights with a Contemptor and it earned back twice it's points; once in melee and the other shooting down fliers.

 kerikhaos wrote:
I got another question. What's the diff between these dreadnoughts -

Standard dreadnought

Obviously, the basic version. Comes standard with a DCCW and a gun, but can swap out the CCW for an autocannon or ML for double-shootyness. Dual autocannons is probably the best option.

Furioso dreadnought

BA-specific, generally used for up-close work. Can get a Rending template Frag Cannon or go with 2 blood talons, which get another attack for every wound they cause. They are brilliant horde-slicers They can also take Librarian Upgrades, giving them a Force Weapon and access to powers.

Venerable dreadnought

Upgrade to the standard Dread, gets a re-roll on damage results caused to it, and I think in the SM codex they have BS5 as well.

Death company dreadnought

Like the Furioso, these guys are mental in CC, can chop through most stuff pretty well.

Contemptor dreadnought ( are these bigger than the others?)

These are Heresy-Era Dreads, they have higher armour than standard Dreads, an invuln as default I think, and can take dual weapons of any kind. There is also the Contemptor Mortis, which is a Contemptor with 2 Assault Cannons and a CML and get skyfire.

Characters- I'd have to agree that Arjac is pretty awesome. I also fancy the Inquisitor Coteaz model. Not sure how he is game-wise, but the guy looks like a whole new level of badass. The eagle definitely helps.

Squads- Space Marine game definitely sold me on how cool jump packs are fluff wise, so I'm a fan of assualt squads or vanguard vets. Haven't used them before sadly as I focus more on the hobby aspect and haven't gotten around to many real matches, so I don't know how they hold up.

Vehicles- Walkin BAWKSES are pretty sweet. Really any dreadnought is grand, but I gotta put in my vote for the BA Librarian dred.

Hell yes Sternguard are a lot better.

 Paradigm wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
I got another question. What's the diff between these dreadnoughts -

Standard dreadnought

Obviously, the basic version. Comes standard with a DCCW and a gun, but can swap out the CCW for an autocannon or ML for double-shootyness. Dual autocannons is probably the best option.

Furioso dreadnought

BA-specific, generally used for up-close work. Can get a Rending template Frag Cannon or go with 2 blood talons, which get another attack for every wound they cause. They are brilliant horde-slicers They can also take Librarian Upgrades, giving them a Force Weapon and access to powers.

Venerable dreadnought

Upgrade to the standard Dread, gets a re-roll on damage results caused to it, and I think in the SM codex they have BS5 as well.

Death company dreadnought

Like the Furioso, these guys are mental in CC, can chop through most stuff pretty well.

Contemptor dreadnought ( are these bigger than the others?)

These are Heresy-Era Dreads, they have higher armour than standard Dreads, an invuln as default I think, and can take dual weapons of any kind. There is also the Contemptor Mortis, which is a Contemptor with 2 Assault Cannons and a CML and get skyfire.

Nice one - thanks for breaking that down for me......another question. Can pre-heracy dreads still be used with more recent army listings? and are these things so much bigger than the standard box dreads? points difference etc

 kerikhaos wrote:
It looks like you all may be correct. Abbaddon seems to be pretty much a solo mega force on his own and don't look there is anyone on imperium status to be able to take him on. It proves that chaos as a single poses more power than any standard human. Mind you if sanguinious was still alive could he have a chance against him. Obviously Horus took him out but is abbaddon stronger than now after 10000 years?

I'm still looking you never know what may pop up.

So far it's true swarm lord and ghaz seem to be only runners up one on one

. Even after 10000years abbadon is still not a primarch and honestly coud not stand to a primarch one on one. No way would would he "have a chance" he would just crush him. And horus killed sangineous after he just fought an exhalted greater demon....he wasn't at the top of his game.

 kerikhaos wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
I got another question. What's the diff between these dreadnoughts -

Standard dreadnought

Obviously, the basic version. Comes standard with a DCCW and a gun, but can swap out the CCW for an autocannon or ML for double-shootyness. Dual autocannons is probably the best option.

Furioso dreadnought

BA-specific, generally used for up-close work. Can get a Rending template Frag Cannon or go with 2 blood talons, which get another attack for every wound they cause. They are brilliant horde-slicers They can also take Librarian Upgrades, giving them a Force Weapon and access to powers.

Venerable dreadnought

Upgrade to the standard Dread, gets a re-roll on damage results caused to it, and I think in the SM codex they have BS5 as well.

Death company dreadnought

Like the Furioso, these guys are mental in CC, can chop through most stuff pretty well.

Contemptor dreadnought ( are these bigger than the others?)

These are Heresy-Era Dreads, they have higher armour than standard Dreads, an invuln as default I think, and can take dual weapons of any kind. There is also the Contemptor Mortis, which is a Contemptor with 2 Assault Cannons and a CML and get skyfire.

Nice one - thanks for breaking that down for me......another question. Can pre-heracy dreads still be used with more recent army listings? and are these things so much bigger than the standard box dreads? points difference etc

Yes you can use them in a normal army and there pretty damn good I love them especially with the kheres assult cannon (6 s6 ap4 rending shots!!)

Excellent as im thinking to get one of these too at soe point. Are they better than standard dreads? ir harder to kill etc? Plus are they more points on the table than standard dreads?

I don't know the exact stats for Contemptors, but I think they are AV13 (so harder to kill), have a default invuln (5+, I think), and can dual-wield any weapons. They are more points, but I think noticeably tougher than standard dreads.

 Paradigm wrote:
To just clarify on the various adjective-guard

Honour Guard: Generally bodyguards for a HQ character, cane take jump pack and have a Sanguinary Novitiate (basically a priest with slightly worse stats and no IC rule) included in the base cost, for a nice 6" FNP/FC bubble. The best loadout is probably giving the 4x melta or plasma and JP and using them as mobile antitank or anti-MC/TEQ/MEQ units respectively. You can kit them for melee but Vanguard, Sanguinary Guard and probably basic assault marines do this better.

Is this from another codex? I'm just wondering because my Honor Guard (C:SM) can only take power weapons and relic blades, no access to different guns. This is probably from the BA codex?

I really like my Honor Guard to be honest. A 10 man squad of HG with an HQ in a Land Raider is gonna wreck a whole lotta peoples days...

darkcloak wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
To just clarify on the various adjective-guard

Honour Guard: Generally bodyguards for a HQ character, cane take jump pack and have a Sanguinary Novitiate (basically a priest with slightly worse stats and no IC rule) included in the base cost, for a nice 6" FNP/FC bubble. The best loadout is probably giving the 4x melta or plasma and JP and using them as mobile antitank or anti-MC/TEQ/MEQ units respectively. You can kit them for melee but Vanguard, Sanguinary Guard and probably basic assault marines do this better.

Is this from another codex? I'm just wondering because my Honor Guard (C:SM) can only take power weapons and relic blades, no access to different guns. This is probably from the BA codex?

I really like my Honor Guard to be honest. A 10 man squad of HG with an HQ in a Land Raider is gonna wreck a whole lotta peoples days...

Yeah, in the BA codex Honour Guard are just like C:SM Command Squads, the only difference being they can take jump packs and not bikes.

Sanguinary Guard are closer to C:SM Honour guard, with 2+ saves and power weapons and the option for a Chapter Banner of Bonus Attacks. Hopefully, they'll get a similar points drop in the new codex.

 Paradigm wrote:
I don't know the exact stats for Contemptors, but I think they are AV13 (so harder to kill), have a default invuln (5+, I think), and can dual-wield any weapons. They are more points, but I think noticeably tougher than standard dreads.

They are indeed av13 but the 5+ only works against shooting its a 6+ against cc. They are also bs5
There down side is they are quite expensive one with a kheres assult cannon is 190 points which is a lot BUT they are so cool !! :p

Sounds just what I'm missing in my army. I'm still looking on the net for worthy abbaddon opponents and will post back once I've found some.

Favorite Character: a tie between A Biker Captain with a really big sword (relic or teeth) and my dual mace Interrogator chaplain, ready to strike down the heretic!

Favorite unit: Tie between Black Knights, Deathwing Knights and the Grav Centurion squad.

Favorite Vehicle: I don't have it, but the sicaran is really snazzy!

centurion squads are pretty cool. Been hearing bad things about them but I quite like their look. Souped up walking tanks / devastators - equals nice

going back to my rambling about who can take on abaddon.....

well how about the emperors champion - Sigismund?

isn't he lost in warp for some reason?

Ah, I think you're confusing two characters there. Sigsimund was an Imperial Fist Captain in the heresy, and I believe the first leader of the Black Templars. He was a badass, but unfortunately does not exist in the game

However, the Emperor's Champion in game terms is just the BT's best swordsman, and unfortunately, Abbadon is out of his league. His one trick is causing Instant Death, but Abbadon's Eternal Warrior ignores this.

If Sigismund still lived, he could perhaps match Abaddon. Both were First Captains of their respective Legions.

[bad logic/] dorn was the second best primarch, therefore Sigismund was the second best 1st captain. [/bad logic]
terminators.
brilliant models.
awesome fluff.
can servive (fluff-wise) a titan's gun. beat that. terminators are awesome.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

can servive (fluff-wise) a titan's gun. beat that. terminators are awesome.

inb4 melissia

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If Sigismund still lived, he could perhaps match Abaddon. Both were First Captains of their respective Legions.

And Abbadon might be the potential 'son' of Horus himself.

That logic doesn't really stand honestly, because that just assumes they are equally skilled because they are first captains.

So he no longer exists in the game because he's dead or lost in warp?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I give up. It seems abaddon with all 4 god blessings can't be beaten one on one with anyone character from the imperium. Unfortunately anyone who can get a chance wouldn't be human and the only chance that the humans would have would be bolt him him to death with like a load of distance shooters non stop or blasts from a something like a land raider. Seems chaos has a character with more or less the same strengths of what a pre herecy prim arch would have.

So there you have it one to one forget it with abaddon it's not going to happen