Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm glad to see the end of the LOTR/Hobbit stuff. That always felt like the little tag-along sibling that mom forced you to take with you when you wanted to go out.

Proper room for HH? YES PLEASE

 Moopy wrote:
I'm glad to see the end of the LOTR/Hobbit stuff. That always felt like the little tag-along sibling that mom forced you to take with them when you wanted to go out.

Proper room for HH? YES PLEASE

I hated it the most in the White Dwarf back when I had a subscription in 3rd edition 40k. It felt like two separate magazines there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Atia wrote:

 warboss wrote:
They're making a HH branded surf board?

it's for the shelfs^^

Hobbit shelfs will go away, Heresy shelfs will stay

Thanks for the clarification.

 warboss wrote:

I hated it the most in the White Dwarf back when I had a subscription in 3rd edition 40k. It felt like two separate magazines there.

For a while it was, with the flip-over LotR at the back section.

As little interest as I had in the actual game, the LotR section did have some really good modelling articles from time to time, though.

 insaniak wrote:

 warboss wrote:

I hated it the most in the White Dwarf back when I had a subscription in 3rd edition 40k. It felt like two separate magazines there.

For a while it was, with the flip-over LotR at the back section.

As little interest as I had in the actual game, the LotR section did have some really good modelling articles from time to time, though.

That's what I thought I remembered but I wasn't sure.

 BrookM wrote:
Overall the Hobbit was nowhere near as massive a hit as the original trilogy was. I think GW didn't see this, seeing as we're still stuck with Goblin Town special editions. I can only speak for my own FLGS, but around there the Hobbit has been nothing but a waste of space collecting dust, with only one or two items sold over time, most of it now recalled or sent back to make place for Age of Sigmar and more 40k goodies.

But, it's best for GW to move on and dive into something quite a lot of people have been clamouring for. I think the Horus Heresy will be their next little cash cow for sure. Even if the rules of the boxed set are naff, they will still be snatched up like mad as a cheaper alternative to FW's models. All you need is one or more of their excellent books and you are good to go.

The ridiculous price and what you got for it may be the main culprit, if they had priced it a lot cheaper they could have brought in a lot of new players alas it is GW we are talking about.

I hope this is true, but like always i'll wait until i see the prices.

That shelf strip in the picture is for the Black Library Section in the shops.

So people seem really excited for HH stuff from GW, not Forgeworld, but a thought just occurred to me.

The reason people are liking the FW HH stuff right now is because it is handled by FW and not GW surely. Plastic HH armour is still just another form of GW plastic armour, it is not going to be as good as FW resin. If the rules are different from the HH ones then GW will be writing them and they will NOT be as good. Even if they are the same, for it to be on a GW shelf that would, to me at least, imply GW are taking over from FW and will ruin the rules.

I'm suddenly thinking the last thing I want for the HH is for GW to take over it, they seem to have heavily influenced how BL handled the novels and that seems to have turned to crap. I'd hate to see the same happen to Warhammer 30k.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason people are liking the FW HH stuff right now is because it is handled by FW and not GW surely.

Not especially, no. For the most part, people just like the older armour marks.

Plastic HH armour is still just another form of GW plastic armour, it is not going to be as good as FW resin.

On character models there might be a perceptible difference, and that might be enough of a difference to warrant the price difference... but for rank and file troops the difference between plastic and resin is going to be negligible, and is going to be counterbalanced against the ease of working with plastic compared to resin and (somewhat) the price.

That's assuming, of course, that Forgeworld even bother to continue producing power armour once the plastics are out, which seems somewhat unlikely. I could see conversion kits remaining, but I would expect the full armour kits to disappear once there are plastic alternatives.

 insaniak wrote:
That's assuming, of course, that Forgeworld even bother to continue producing power armour once the plastics are out, which seems somewhat unlikely. I could see conversion kits remaining, but I would expect the full armour kits to disappear once there are plastic alternatives.

I think they will, but in different ways. For example most of the chapter specific squads have been in MK4 armor. There's been some exceptions but the units and chapter specific torsos are Mk4.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason people are liking the FW HH stuff right now is because it is handled by FW and not GW surely.

Of course. The books, especially those Legion lists, are Codex Writing 101 as far as I'm concerned and I wish that GW would emulate that for their books.

If GW end up doing the HH books and rules then I will probably walk from the hobby. I have no interest in paying £35 for a new book every year or two, or waiting to see if the bin the whole lot in favour of "age of angry man" and his "Horus Scrolls"

Daston wrote:
If GW end up doing the HH books and rules then I will probably walk from the hobby. I have no interest in paying £35 for a new book every year or two, or waiting to see if the bin the whole lot in favour of "age of angry man" and his "Horus Scrolls"

So you don't pay ~£75 per book once or twice a year from FW already?

 jonolikespie wrote:
So people seem really excited for HH stuff from GW, not Forgeworld, but a thought just occurred to me.

The reason people are liking the FW HH stuff right now is because it is handled by FW and not GW surely.

No.
1) FW had a lot of failed attempts of trying to revitalize less popular miniatures (incl. Fantasy). The FW-brand did or their vaunted writing-skillz nothing there.
2) Space Marines/Heresy was a hit before FW ever took a stab at it. The Heresy-brand was already a hit without FW.

Heresy is the thing that draws, and FW profited from that "spill-over"-appeal for the last few years, not the other way around.


Mostly, people like Heresy because it allows them to play Space Marines without getting "that look" for being "another" Space Marine player. That's about it. If GW (or even FW) did a 40K starter with Space Marines on both sides, the Nerd-more-Xenos-Rage would boil to high heavens. Even Dark Vengeance took flak for being "Power Armour vs. Power Armour". Take away all the details on those Space Marine miniatures and put the Heresy-stamp on there, and people can't stop salivating.

The "FW" brand-stamp is less relevant than the "Horus Heresy"-brand stamp.

Wonderwolf wrote:
1) FW had a lot of failed attempts of trying to revitalize less popular miniatures (incl. Fantasy). The FW-brand did or their vaunted writing-skillz nothing there.

1) FW didn't try to revive WHFB with a whole new expansion and tons of support for it, they just published a few models here and there. Their WHFB stuff was never more than a slight distraction from the main line of 40k products.

2) You're talking about an era before GW went from writing mediocre rules to actively trying to kill 40k. The main reason people like FW's 30k rules so much isn't that they're amazing innovation, it's that they're a continuation of the old style of GW rules from before 6th edition started pushing everything into insanity. No formations, no unbound armies, LoW are heavily limited, no death stars with five different codices stacking up special rules, etc. Same thing with the expansions. GW publishes planetstrike/cities of death/etc expansions that consist of a deck of maelstrom cards and "buy terrain kits because terrain is cool". FW publishes similar expansions with detailed rules, interesting fluff-based missions, a whole campaign system, etc. Those "better rules" selling points simply didn't exist with FW's WHFB stuff because AoS hadn't arrived yet.

2) Space Marines/Heresy was a hit before FW ever took a stab at it. The Heresy-brand was a hit without FW.

It was, but only with a hardcore few. FW's 30k books transformed 30k-era gaming from a few people converting power armor and using 40k rules to a whole new expansion with new model kits (including vehicles, characters, etc) and much wider popularity.

Mostly, people like Heresy because it allows them to play Space Marines without getting "that look" for being "another" Space Marine player.

And because it's just plain better than 40k right now. TBH if FW ever releases an elegant way to convert Eldar/Tau/etc into 30k there will no longer be any reason to even consider playing 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:


And because it's just plain better than 40k right now. TBH if FW ever releases an elegant way to convert Eldar/Tau/etc into 30k there will no longer be any reason to even consider playing 40k.

There is no elegant way to bring Xenos to the Heresy. Because the whole thing is called "The Horus Heresy", not "30K". It's not about any given point in time, but about a particular conflict, notably between Space Marines vs. Space Marines.

If FW (or GW) wants to do "historic" Xenos, they'd probably be better off picking iconic wars for these Xenos. War in Heaven for Necrons vs. Eldar. Maybe Beast Arises for Orks (vs. Imperium presumably). Maybe 45K for Tau vs. Tyranids as "last-species"-standing.

Bringing, say, Eldar into the Heresy would be as thematic a fail as bringing the Heresy-Legions into a War in Heaven setting/book-series.

Don't know where you're getting your erroneous ideas from, Wonderwolf, but FW were never about "Reviving" ranges. They did what they thought was interesting, produced some amazing books and resin kits. Tamarkun (sp?) was well received, especially for Chaos Dwarf players. Indeed, in all GW annual reports, FW have always showed strong sales, this shows that they have always been a popular attraction. Their 30k release has been a hit because of the quality of the kits, rules and the large books they produce. Before FW, you had the odd attempt at pre-heresy, but nowhere near what you have now.

Myself, for example. the Black Library's Heresy Series didn't attract me until FW started doing what they are doing. The amazing FW books are the prime reason I am "Into" 30k. I have always found the Forgeworld books, whether it is an Imperial Armour or Age of Darkness book, explore and enrich the background tremendously and in ways that the Black Library series doesn't and that embarrass the Codex books.

 zedmeister wrote:
Don't know where you're getting your erroneous ideas from, Wonderwolf, but FW were never about "Reviving" ranges. They did what they thought was interesting, produced some amazing books and resin kits. Tamarkun (sp?) was well received, especially for Chaos Dwarf players. Indeed, in all GW annual reports, FW have always showed strong sales, this shows that they have always been a popular attraction. Their 30k release has been a hit because of the quality of the kits, rules and the large books they produce. Before FW, you had the odd attempt at pre-heresy, but nowhere near what you have now.

Myself, for example. the Black Library's Heresy Series didn't attract me until FW started doing what they are doing. The amazing FW books are the prime reason I am "Into" 30k. I have always found the Forgeworld books, whether it is an Imperial Armour or Age of Darkness book, explore and enrich the background tremendously and in ways that the Black Library series doesn't and that embarrass the Codex books.

1) I am not saying that people like you, who got into the Heresy by FW, didn't exist. And as you said, you were into FW before they did Heresy.
2) Also, I am not saying they don't deliver the quality you like.

But...

1) It is obvious that pre-Heresy stuff from FW sold on a far smaller scale, despite (as you acknowledged) the same superiour quality and attention to detail. That writing-quality by FW is thus not (!) a factor causal to mass-success.

2) Even if you personally don't like the BL-Heresy books, there's no denying they sold Millions of copies, catapulted BL into international book-bestseller lists were they'd never been before, and for a time with frighting regularity. The Heresy-stuff as such thus clearly is a massive success, and especially if you think the BL-stuff is gak, that would be even more proof that Heresy succeeds independed of quality, no?

lel, the only useful thing from "Hobbit" range were Mirkwood Elves, as they were perfect to kitbash WHF Wood Elf waywatchers

Plastic Heresy - definitely looking forward to see. Hell, I think we might even see that tomorrow, as it's Warhammer 40k Open days...

Wonderwolf wrote:


1) It is obvious that pre-Heresy stuff from FW sold on a far smaller scale, despite (as you acknowledged) the same superiour quality and attention to detail. That writing-quality by FW is thus not (!) a factor causal to mass-success.

I'd argue that it is. If they'd have just stuffed out the red book, tied it in with the 40k rulebook and be done with it, I don't think it'd been quite as popular as a ruleset. The miniatures would have sold, but for use in 40k games. I'd argue the fact that they spun it off as a proper ruleset expansion on its own, along with some really quality writing and some very clever army lists has helped to bring about its position as the new 3rd product line.

Wonderwolf wrote:

2) Even if you personally don't like the BL-Heresy books, there's no denying they sold Millions of copies, catapulted BL into international book-bestseller lists were they'd never been before, and for a time with frighting regularity. The Heresy-stuff as such thus clearly is a massive success, and especially if you think the BL-stuff is gak, that would be even more proof that Heresy succeeds independed of quality, no?

Never said the Black Library stuff was gak, nor did I say it wasn't popular. Its popularity as a series is undeniable. Forgeworld capitalised on that quite smartly. However, that does not mean that Forgeworld were "struggling" before as you implied with your failed attempts comment.

I am not sure where we disagree.

Yes, FW did many things right that they could've done wrong. But as you said, Heresy was popular before and is popular in other product lines, such as the BL stuff.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that it will also be (and remain) popular as a GW-studio product line.

The theory/claim by jonolikespie was that it people liked Heresy because of Forgeworld. That is wrong. People liked and like and probably will continue to like Heresy independently of Forgeworld. Customers particularly sensitive to quality, like you, being a previous FW-customer predating even their HH-line, will likely continue with FW.

But a large % of people were/are into the Heresy because it is the Heresy, They might have gone FW, because FW did Heresy, but many they not be as sensitive to "writing quality" or "resin miniature detais" as you, especially if money is a factor in the mix.


Indeed, there are likely even lots of customers out there, that are into the Heresy but have not gone to FW, because their sensitivety to price (or the perceived jump to resin from plastic) weighs heavier for them than their preference for Heresy-product.

It's precisely these people who will likely pick up GW-studio Heresy (while the FW-hardcores presumably lose nothing, assuming FW will not just stop doing Heresy).

 xttz wrote:

Daston wrote:
If GW end up doing the HH books and rules then I will probably walk from the hobby. I have no interest in paying £35 for a new book every year or two, or waiting to see if the bin the whole lot in favour of "age of angry man" and his "Horus Scrolls"

So you don't pay ~£75 per book once or twice a year from FW already?

No I pay £30 for the thin red codex that's better quality than the crap 6th edition codex's and cheaper to boot.

You kind of need the £75 books to stay up to date, the £30 ones weren't available until fairly recently. The £30 books do make GW's £35 6th ed Codex books look like a terrible proposition, though. Too much remains to be seen about what exactly is coming to make any of this discussion worthwhile, though. Don't all our most reliable sources still say this is a board game?

Wonderwolf wrote:

There is no elegant way to bring Xenos to the Heresy. Because the whole thing is called "The Horus Heresy", not "30K". It's not about any given point in time, but about a particular conflict, notably between Space Marines vs. Space Marines.

Bringing, say, Eldar into the Heresy would be as thematic a fail as bringing the Heresy-Legions into a War in Heaven setting/book-series.

Yup, total fail..

 Gashrog wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

There is no elegant way to bring Xenos to the Heresy. Because the whole thing is called "The Horus Heresy", not "30K". It's not about any given point in time, but about a particular conflict, notably between Space Marines vs. Space Marines.

Bringing, say, Eldar into the Heresy would be as thematic a fail as bringing the Heresy-Legions into a War in Heaven setting/book-series.

Yup, total fail..

And you haven't even quoted any of the books yet either.

Which have confirmed there were Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar (iirc there is mention of Eldar having 'dark kin' in plenty which makes people very wary about dealing with them as no way of knowing which type of Eldar you are talking to for most Imperials) and if you really want the ultimate definition of a counts-as race if I saw one...the Megarachnids.

 kronk wrote:
If Generic? I'd start a second Heresy Army. I have a loyalist group, so I'd go for a traitor army.

Same for me.
The Contemptor Dreads need keres assault cannons.

 jonolikespie wrote:
So people seem really excited for HH stuff from GW, not Forgeworld, but a thought just occurred to me.

The reason people are liking the FW HH stuff right now is because it is handled by FW and not GW surely. Plastic HH armour is still just another form of GW plastic armour, it is not going to be as good as FW resin. If the rules are different from the HH ones then GW will be writing them and they will NOT be as good. Even if they are the same, for it to be on a GW shelf that would, to me at least, imply GW are taking over from FW and will ruin the rules.

I'm suddenly thinking the last thing I want for the HH is for GW to take over it, they seem to have heavily influenced how BL handled the novels and that seems to have turned to crap. I'd hate to see the same happen to Warhammer 30k.

I think that is a gross oversimplificcation. For me personally, the only "older" armor I like is the mk IV and I actually don't like the older more medieval full plate looking ones for the most part compared with current 40k armors (and Mk 8 is my favorite). I used to like the HH because it's grimdark but yet not grimdark. 40k lays on the decaying imperium only hope for humanity but still oppressively evil very thick and it's nice to have a bit of hope injected into the universe outside of the realm of Ultramar. Then add in the power/scale/coolness of the primarchs and the emperor not being a zombie on a toilet. Those are just the two biggest for me.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

There is no elegant way to bring Xenos to the Heresy. Because the whole thing is called "The Horus Heresy", not "30K". It's not about any given point in time, but about a particular conflict, notably between Space Marines vs. Space Marines.

Bringing, say, Eldar into the Heresy would be as thematic a fail as bringing the Heresy-Legions into a War in Heaven setting/book-series.

Yup, total fail..

And you haven't even quoted any of the books yet either.

Which have confirmed there were Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar (iirc there is mention of Eldar having 'dark kin' in plenty which makes people very wary about dealing with them as no way of knowing which type of Eldar you are talking to for most Imperials) and if you really want the ultimate definition of a counts-as race if I saw one...the Megarachnids.

I'm not sure if any Eldar is referred to as 'dark kin' or similar but there are several depictions of eldar conforming to the aestetics and mannerisms we connect with the Dark eldar. (Butcher's nails and Promethean Sun has some pretty deliberate dark-eldarish descriptions). Going by the eldar timeline; at the time of the heresy there has already been plenty of time for both the craftworlders and the dark to have already solidified their cultures into much as they appear in 40k

Might as well not even say "xenos" when talking about 30k, just say Orks and/or Eldar because that's all you're going to get.

Sure there are other races, but they were all dead by the time of the Heresy (or don't leave their planets). None of those random races would get models, thus they don't matter anyway.

They weren't around long enough to make an impact.

Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar were around, of course.

Then you have Tyranids counting as a variety of Megarachnid-type races.

And then you have Tau standing in for the same role they play in 40k - an insignificant but highly advanced speedbump race. Many small empires like these were met (and eradicated) during the Great Crusade.

And the Necrons were around too, they just weren't awake on a wide scale. I'm sure at least a few Tomb Worlds were awoken early by some intrepid Explorator team.

This all makes the most sense for 30k, and has only limited Horus Heresy crossover, but many people do want to play the Great Crusade. I don't see why you would poo-poo that.