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 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They've always been a GK parallel.

The two differences are that their shtick is Xenos hunting rather than Daemon hunting and they openly recruit known Xenos killers from other chapters rather than doing everything in secret.

Cool.

What's the Witch hunting equivalent of the Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And will they ever get a stupidly-overpowered Codex and badass new models one day?

Ordo Hereticus who doesn't actually have its own army, Sisters of Battle tend to be their go to army of choice but they serve the church.

And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

That doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that Tau are bad at shooting things.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My point is that BA lack units X, Y, Z that make vanilla marines strong.

I havew actually addressed your incredibly vague points over and over. You have never said anything beyond "X, Y, Z." Awesome. Well Sisters are lacking A, B, C and D. Please address that.

What exactly is it that BA is lacking, but Sisters has to make BA so obviously weaker than Sisters?

Martel732 wrote:
So you sacrifice a unit, and then kill that unit and the flyer because it had to hover to do that. Flyers are not good, even against lists with no AA because of their cost and their fragility on a point/hp basis. You aren't thinking deeply about how games play out, and that's why you think flyers are a problem and BA are not terribad.

Sacrifice *a* unit? No, you lose WHATEVER unit the BA player wants you to lose, and then that group of melee continues their rampage through your army, because you have nothing to stop it with.

When you fly in, the flier has two rounds of shooting. One when it enters and one when it goes into hover, and that's even assuming it then gets shot down. So it will even without the consideration that it just delivered a game winning payload most probably make most of its points back. Again, you're just bad at your army. Maybe you win mirror matches because they have to play the same bad list you've made?

you're not thinking deeply about how a game plays out when all you see is the first charge and don't even look at what the flier can do up to getting there. Jesus man, how can you say I don't "think deeply" and then claim you can just sacrifice one unit to a flying landraider if you can't kill it.

BA are more expensive than sisters, and get little functionality in return. Sisters also have more efficient methods of deploying the special weapons and heavy weapons they have at their disposal. Sisters limited codex has many units that do their task in an average or slightly above or slightly below average fashion. BA codex is full of units that perform poorly for the points I'm investing.

Flyers rarely are delivering the game winning payload. You've already burned at least one turn in reserve. You cant' charge before turn 3. Hell, I've been tabled by then against aggressive Eldar lists.

No genius. I play other BA players who have their own models and spank them. Because I understand exactly what BA like and don't like. What's at least functional and what's embrrassingly useless. Stormravens, at the end of the day, are overcosted, making them a very below average unit. There is almost nothing you can assault and actually beat with a BA stormraven plus unit that costs anywhere near what the Stormraven plus unit costs. The Stormraven itself has meh firepower for its enormous cost, so you aren't gaining any ground back there, either.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

That doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that Tau are bad at shooting things.

It isn't true. And the unit isn't mystical, it's called Death Company. They can get buffed to have so many attacks and rerolls that there is vedry little they can't chew right through. But he wouldn't even send it on the penitents. ASWhy would he want to? He gets to pick where to hit you, why would he hit you where you might actually have a chance of handling it?

I think you're just lying about being able to win, Martel. And this gak

I've been tabled by then against aggressive Eldar lists.

what relevance does that have against Sisters? "OH THE BEST CODEX THAT EVERYONE AGREES IS OP CAN TAKE ME DOWN, SO MY THINGS ARE BAD AGAINST SISTERS!" what?

BA get lots of functionality in return. They have many more options to tailor their units. "More efficient methods" are you kidding me? They have one squad that is good at deploying meltas, that's it. Sisters have three things exactly that can fight. 1) cheap bolters, and everyone agrees bolters are the best thing ever, right? One squad that can come in from the table edges as reserves. You seem to love reserves, right? You think those are great! (If you don't come in as reserves they will die as they are expensive as feth and sit in a rhino chassis and have the same T3 as everyoen else in the army) and lastly they have exorcists, who are an RNG powerhouse or dud, depending on how many shots they get.

You are just whiny.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

That doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that Tau are bad at shooting things.

I know it doesn't make sense, but it is absolutely true in 7th ed. Which is why BA are in running for worst codex in the game down with CSM, Orks, DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

That doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that Tau are bad at shooting things.

It isn't true. And the unit isn't mystical, it's called Death Company. They can get buffed to have so many attacks and rerolls that there is vedry little they can't chew right through. But he wouldn't even send it on the penitents. ASWhy would he want to? He gets to pick where to hit you, why would he hit you where you might actually have a chance of handling it?

DC is not that great. They can't multi-assault without crippling themselves. If they get bogged down by counter assaults, they are incredibly mediocre. They are 100% reliant on getting the change. Also, frequently, I need my DC on the table turn 1 if I'm facing a pod alpha strike list. You can't afford to ever have them on a raven. Turn 3 is too late too much of the time. Compared to Wraiths and TWC, DC are a terrible, terrible unit. There's actually a lot of things DC can't chew though. Which is why BA aren't that good in assault in 7th ed.

I understand the disconnect now. You think DC are actually good, when they are just fragile bullies that can't take on real CC units.

Martel732 wrote:
DC is not that great. They can't multi-assault without crippling themselves. If they get bogged down by counter assaults,

Ah yes, the famous Sisters assaulting units. (If they are dumb enough to have Repentias, charge those first. They simply die if they aren't allowed to charge, and even if they are... well, they usually die as a result of I1)

they are incredibly mediocre. They are 100% reliant on getting the charge.

Yes, I just told you how to do that. You're welcome.

Also, frequently, I need my DC on the table turn 1 if I'm facing a pod alpha strike list.

Ah yes, the famous Sisters Alpha Strike.

You can't afford to ever have them on a raven.

Yes you can, My BA friend does it all the time.

Turn 3 is too late too much of the time.

No, Sisters will not have tabled you by then.

Compared to Wraiths and TWC, DC are a terrible, terrible unit.

Ah yes, the famous Sisters of Battle Thunderwolf Cavalry, supported by the Sister-Wraiths. (also, "they're a terrible terrible unit because they're not as good as the two most OP units in the game" shows exactly what your whine is based on. Ridiculous)

There's actually a lot of things DC can't chew though.

In Sisters? No. Nothing.

Awesome how many times I have to remind you that we're talking about sisters here, not the top tier codices.

I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And what is this mystical Blood Angels melee unit that can take on a squadron of 3 Penitent Engines in close combat and then proceed to roll up an entire Sororitas battleline?

They don't have one. BA are depressingly poor actual CC.

That doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that Tau are bad at shooting things.

It isn't true. And the unit isn't mystical, it's called Death Company. They can get buffed to have so many attacks and rerolls that there is vedry little they can't chew right through. But he wouldn't even send it on the penitents. ASWhy would he want to? He gets to pick where to hit you, why would he hit you where you might actually have a chance of handling it?

...Because you said the Sisters have zero melee units that can take down the Death Company.

Penitent Engines sure as feth ain't a ranged unit.

Also how about a large Battle Conclave made of Death-Cult Assassins and Crusaders with a couple of Priests for buffs? Cheaper than the Penitent Engines. I took down an 8-man squad of vanilla Marine Honor Guard in one round with a Battle Conclave of 3-4 Crusaders and 5-6 DCAs back in 5th and the unit hasn't changed much since then. Yeah, power swords are AP3 now but Death Company don't have Artificer or Terminator Armor so it's moot. And I dealt enough overkill to those Honor Guard that it wasn't a matter of getting barely lucky enough. The Crusaders go in front to soak up a bit of fire, then the DCAs just BUTCHER things. I've never been able to use a Battle Conclave effectively after that first time, because they dealt such brutal overkill that every time I field one, it gets targeted by every ranged weapon my opponent has in range until being wiped out. She ignores my tanks with her Lootas to kill a Battle Conclave, that is how much they terrify her.

I think you're just lying about being able to win, Martel. And this gak

I've been tabled by then against aggressive Eldar lists.

what relevance does that have against Sisters? "OH THE BEST CODEX THAT EVERYONE AGREES IS OP CAN TAKE ME DOWN, SO MY THINGS ARE BAD AGAINST SISTERS!" what?

BA get lots of functionality in return. They have many more options to tailor their units. "More efficient methods" are you kidding me? They have one squad that is good at deploying meltas, that's it. Sisters have three things exactly that can fight. 1) cheap bolters, and everyone agrees bolters are the best thing ever, right? One squad that can come in from the table edges as reserves. You seem to love reserves, right? You think those are great! (If you don't come in as reserves they will die as they are expensive as feth and sit in a rhino chassis and have the same T3 as everyoen else in the army) and lastly they have exorcists, who are an RNG powerhouse or dud, depending on how many shots they get.

You are just whiny.

Aren't Dominions fairly comparable in cost to a Battle Sisters Squad of similar size and equipment, with like 20 points layered on top to purchase the squad to to begin with? Did they get a huge price hike?

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

It's because all armies should be approximately even. "More than fine" is not a situation the BA are ever in. BA can't shoot well, and can't assault well. At least by 7th ed standards. BA vs the field are inferior to sisters, making them an inferior overall codex. Head to head means nothing.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

I don't know why, but when I read your posts, I get the feeling you're talking really fast, really loud, and are very excited and more than a bit angry.

Am I somehow reading tone into your posts that isn't there?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

I don't know why, but when I read your posts, I get the feeling you're talking really fast, really loud, and are very excited and more than a bit angry.

Am I somehow reading tone into your posts that isn't there?

I'm pretty sure I could beat Purifier's concept of BA pretty consistently with both my BA and Sisters. Stormravens are bad. Reserved assault units are even worse.

Voted - Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines and Adeptus Sororitas.

CB

Captain Brown wrote:
Voted - Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines and Adeptus Sororitas.

CB

Adepta. With an A at the end.

They are female, not male.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

I don't know why, but when I read your posts, I get the feeling you're talking really fast, really loud, and are very excited and more than a bit angry.

Am I somehow reading tone into your posts that isn't there?

You are. And Penitent Engines are proably the worst unit in the codex. If you're being allowed to use them effectively, you are not playing anything like what he is talking about An open topped F11, R10 walker for 80 points? Maybe if the FAQ gave them more attacks? I don't know if it did, but even then, they are terrible.

Compare it to a BA dreadnought: The Penitent has 2 less BS, 1 less Strength, 1 less front and side armour., 1 less initiative and one more attack. Furthermore, where the Penitents have flamers, meaning they are useless unless they manage to walk up (with 6 inches move and too big to hide behind anything) the dread has a multi melta. The dread also isn't open topped. The dread also has the option of being dropped in by pod. The dread is just better all around. And yet dreads are (rightly so) considered very bad. The Penitent Engines are worse.

They're so easy to pop as they lumber along, that they shouldn't really get into combat. But even if the BA brainfarts and does choose them to charge into, well, they have S5 on the charge, so they'll still rip right through it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm pretty sure I could beat Purifier's concept of BA pretty consistently with both my BA and Sisters. Stormravens are bad. Reserved assault units are even worse.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to handle it if I gave you a 1000 point handicap, but at this point I'm too tired of your whine, so I would never have the patience to play you.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

Why not?

Martel732 wrote:

"but they're still a SM chapter codex. "

That means absolutely nothing. The problems are far more extensive than things "cost a little more." Who's not in reality here? You don't hear much other whining about BA because most other players have given up on them.

"They're not *that* bad."

You trot them out there and see how it goes for you. No invis. No viable death star. No grav cannons. No chapter masters. No squadron bonuses. No gladius. Literally every single thing that makes the vanilla marines good is missing from the BA.

Honestly, the more I hear from you the more I think you have no idea why any given army is good or bad.

I have actually, back when I played Sisters. My BA friend won about 2 games out of 3, and we did a list swap. I beat him with BA. Had a great game. I think maybe you're just not good at your army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Because you're complaining about them doing exactly that.

No I'm not. I'm saying it's what makes the Sisters codex weak. If we could just say "don't use your strong units!" to our opponents in this discussion and then that would make the codex fine, then the whole conversation on what codex is strong and what is weak is fairly pointless, no?

Do you understand the difference between complaining about a weakness and wanting others to play around it, and simply explaining that a weakness exists?

Not having dedicated AA is HARDLY the reason SoB are a mediocre codex though. It's a non-complaint; Fliers are mostly weak so who cares if it isn't there?

Have you read that online somewhere and then just repeat it instead of thinking about what flying can do to an army that has no answer to it? Against Sisters the Storm Raven is an assault ram that can pick exactly where to place a unit of Death Company, without fail. There is no way to stop it from letting them charge exactly what they want, and there is nothing in the Sisters army that can survive their charge. If you don't like death company, then replace it with anything else. When it can't fail its job of getting a unit into combat against an army that doesn't want to be in combat under any circumstances, it is a very strong model. The fact that fliers are weak against the top tier armies has nothing to do with Sisters.

I literally LOL'd at the notion of a Storm raven being used to transport anything. That's a T3 charge at earliest and Death Company have Jump Packs. Nothing without that minimum of mobility + being a melee unit isn't going to be worth running in the first place.

So yes it IS a non-issue. Last time I played CSM with no fliers or AA it made no difference in the outcome because of how the codex operates. That's easily the bottom codex there.

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

I don't know why, but when I read your posts, I get the feeling you're talking really fast, really loud, and are very excited and more than a bit angry.

Am I somehow reading tone into your posts that isn't there?

You are. And Penitent Engines are proably the worst unit in the codex. If you're being allowed to use them effectively, you are not playing anything like what he is talking about An open topped F11, R10 walker for 80 points? Maybe if the FAQ gave them more attacks? I don't know if it did, but even then, they are terrible.

Compare it to a BA dreadnought: The Penitent has 2 less BS, 1 less Strength, 1 less front and side armour., 1 less initiative and one more attack. Furthermore, where the Penitents have flamers, meaning they are useless unless they manage to walk up (with 6 inches move and too big to hide behind anything) the dread has a multi melta. The dread also isn't open topped. The dread also has the option of being dropped in by pod. The dread is just better all around. And yet dreads are (rightly so) considered very bad. The Penitent Engines are worse.

They're so easy to pop as they lumber along, that they shouldn't really get into combat. But even if the BA brainfarts and does choose them to charge into, well, they have S5 on the charge, so they'll still rip right through it.

A few things. First, we're talking about Death Company Marines' ability to fight Penitent Engines in melee, not a Dreadnought versus Dreadnought comparison. If you're gonna use the Dreadnought then we can just have Melta Dominions melt the crap out of it like they do to any other vehicle or rain Exorcist missiles on it until it dies. Stop changing the subject when you realize that Sisters actually can do stuff against Blood Angels sometimes.

Second, Penitent Engines have d6+1 attacks, Maybe more with the revamp to dreadnought attacks in the FAQs once they get to Sisters. And for every unsaved wound they inflict, they get another attack immediately. They have Dreadnought CCWs, so armor saves, ability to wound, and FNP are irrelevant. And they effectively have the "fixed" version of the Furioso Blood Talons' special rule.

Third, a Penitent Engine's ballistic skill is completely irrelevant to everything, as its only ranged weapons are two heavy flamers, which don't roll to hit. It serves only to let it actually fire its flamers.

Fourth, six heavy flamers firing Overwatch against T4 infantry are very, very likely going to cause some casualties. Assuming flamers on Dreadnoughts CAN be fired as Overwatch, anyways.

Fifth, one less strength on the PE is irrelevant, as it's impossible to have a Strength above 10 anyways and if all of a Dreadnought's CCWs are busted (the only time its base strength would matter in this case) then it doesn't matter what its stats are, it's going to die in melee to infantry with Krak Grenades or watch those infantry run away on the grounds they can't physically hurt it.

Sixth, Death Company with Strength 5 glance a Penitent Engine on 6s. They need to inflict 6 6s to take out all of them, which requires around 36 hits on average. I don't know the Death Company's WS but I imagine they're hitting on 4s. Which means that the Death Company squad needs to be able to deliver around 72 attacks to take out the squadron, unless I miscalculated something. And if they fail to take them out, they're stuck with krak grenades.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring for Sisters. I build a list and THEN find out who I'm playing. It's entire possible that BA might have an advantage vs Sisters heads up, but be far worse vs the field. That still makes them an inferior codex.

Yes, it would. But they're NOT. Even if you don't tailor, you're more than fine against Sisters. You're just whiny, and every single time we need an example you drag up Eldar, TWC and Wraiths. It's mind blowing that you don't even take a step back and go "whoa, I keep comparing my army to the top armies even when I'm saying that it's worse than the low tier armies... that's messed up of me! Maybe I'm just whiny?"

I don't know why, but when I read your posts, I get the feeling you're talking really fast, really loud, and are very excited and more than a bit angry.

Am I somehow reading tone into your posts that isn't there?

You are. And Penitent Engines are proably the worst unit in the codex. If you're being allowed to use them effectively, you are not playing anything like what he is talking about An open topped F11, R10 walker for 80 points? Maybe if the FAQ gave them more attacks? I don't know if it did, but even then, they are terrible.

Compare it to a BA dreadnought: The Penitent has 2 less BS, 1 less Strength, 1 less front and side armour., 1 less initiative and one more attack. Furthermore, where the Penitents have flamers, meaning they are useless unless they manage to walk up (with 6 inches move and too big to hide behind anything) the dread has a multi melta. The dread also isn't open topped. The dread also has the option of being dropped in by pod. The dread is just better all around. And yet dreads are (rightly so) considered very bad. The Penitent Engines are worse.

They're so easy to pop as they lumber along, that they shouldn't really get into combat. But even if the BA brainfarts and does choose them to charge into, well, they have S5 on the charge, so they'll still rip right through it.

A few things. First, we're talking about Death Company Marines' ability to fight Penitent Engines in melee, not a Dreadnought versus Dreadnought comparison. If you're gonna use the Dreadnought then we can just have Melta Dominions melt the crap out of it like they do to any other vehicle or rain Exorcist missiles on it until it dies. Stop changing the subject when you realize that Sisters actually can do stuff against Blood Angels sometimes.

Second, Penitent Engines have d6+1 attacks, Maybe more with the revamp to dreadnought attacks in the FAQs once they get to Sisters. And for every unsaved wound they inflict, they get another attack immediately. They have Dreadnought CCWs, so armor saves, ability to wound, and FNP are irrelevant. And they effectively have the "fixed" version of the Furioso Blood Talons' special rule.

Third, a Penitent Engine's ballistic skill is completely irrelevant to everything, as its only ranged weapons are two heavy flamers, which don't roll to hit. It serves only to let it actually fire its flamers.

Fourth, six heavy flamers firing Overwatch against T4 infantry are very, very likely going to cause some casualties. Assuming flamers on Dreadnoughts CAN be fired as Overwatch, anyways.

Fifth, one less strength on the PE is irrelevant, as it's impossible to have a Strength above 10 anyways and if all of a Dreadnought's CCWs are busted (the only time its base strength would matter in this case) then it doesn't matter what its stats are, it's going to die in melee to infantry with Krak Grenades or watch those infantry run away on the grounds they can't physically hurt it.

Sixth, Death Company with Strength 5 glance a Penitent Engine on 6s. They need to inflict 6 6s to take out all of them, which requires around 36 hits on average. I don't know the Death Company's WS but I imagine they're hitting on 4s. Which means that the Death Company squad needs to be able to deliver around 72 attacks to take out the squadron, unless I miscalculated something. And if they fail to take them out, they're stuck with krak grenades.

First of all, I said they shouldn't be charging them at all. I even called it a brainfart. So no, I'm not changing the subject. My point was that they are worse than everyone else's dreads, or at best equal, and no one takes dreads because they're terrible. Mostly because they die easy, and guess whose walkers die easiest of everyone's? Well, maybe Orks, I don't actually know that book. But other than that, probably Sisters.

Second, those Death Company will have 5 attacks each on the charge. Then they get Astorath and they reroll to hit, reroll to wound and if you put a sanguinary priest in the unit they have WS5 and hit on 3+, but honestly, that's not needed, because they'll get those 6 6s like child's play.

So say there's 10 of them, that's 50 attacks, should be about 37 hits rounding down (without the sanguinary priest) which is 6 6s in the first roll and another 5 in the second roll. Will 11 6s do it, you think?

But again, they shouldn't be charging that unit to begin with, and they have free reign over where to charge. And when they charge on the opposite side of the table from where you have your walkers, good luck getting them there before the end of the game.

 Purifier wrote:
First of all, I said they shouldn't be charging them at all. I even called it a brainfart. So no, I'm not changing the subject. My point was that they are worse than everyone else's dreads, or at best equal, and no one takes dreads because they're terrible. Mostly because they die easy, and guess whose walkers die easiest of everyone's? Well, maybe Orks, I don't actually know that book. But other than that, probably Sisters.

Second, those Death Company will have 5 attacks each on the charge. Then they get Astorath and they reroll to hit, reroll to wound and if you put a sanguinary priest in the unit they have WS5 and hit on 3+, but honestly, that's not needed, because they'll get those 6 6s like child's play.

So say there's 10 of them, that's 50 attacks, should be about 37 hits rounding down (without the sanguinary priest) which is 6 6s in the first roll and another 5 in the second roll. Will 11 6s do it, you think?

But again, they shouldn't be charging that unit to begin with, and they have free reign over where to charge. And when they charge on the opposite side of the table from where you have your walkers, good luck getting them there before the end of the game.

So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one. And then after that if they get a bit unlucky and any Penitent Engines survive, they have to use Krak Grenades because they're back to S4 and can't hurt AV11 with their normal attacks, even on 6s.

Also, what's the initiative situation like? Who's going first? I'm legitimately asking, as my units' initiatives haven't been relevant in a long time since my mom plays Orks all the time. If they're going at the same time I feel really confident the Penitent Engines are going to inflict a HELL of a lot of damage and have a good chance of wiping out the Death Company even if they also get wiped out themselves.

Also in the situation you described, it wouldn't be too hard to get the Penitent Engines to the Death Company. Just head straight for them - they're coming in the Penitent Engines' direction, as the DC are rolling up a battle line that the Penitent Engines are at the end of.

Oh, and if the DC don't charge the PE and get charged instead, they're at S4 and can't get 5 attacks each due to not being able to hurt AV11. So it's 1 Krak grenade each.

Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.

I feel like you both missed the word "not" in your posts somewhere.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

Where does the Death Company's second batch of attacks in one round come from?

Well, in the situation you laid out where the Penitent Engines are on the opposite end of the battleline, a completely viable scenario is that the Blood Angels wipe out a Sisters of Battle unit, then it's the Sisters of Battle turn, then the Penitent Engines charge them. Personally if I were using my Penitent Engines as an anti-melee unit I'd place them behind my lines in the middle, not way off on one end.

Also initiative 4 is not completely unheard of in the Sisters of Battle Codex, but yes, Penitent Engines have Initiative 3 so would be going last.

So, yeah, Penitent Engines would take too much damage and probably wouldn't work.

What about a Battle Conclave?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

Why would you need a massive unit? I was under the impression most people thought Lords of War were one of the things ruining tabletop. Also, Sisters don't actually have such a large unit in the lore so far as I know.

They have formations. They may not be much good, but they do have them.

Do fliers and AA really matter in a meta where no one takes them anyways? You're basically saying, "Boy, I sure wish Sisters had fliers and AA units so I could not be using them at any time."

Why does any of this even matter?

 oni wrote:
Why does any of this even matter?

I... don't even know.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

I'd rather ally in 3 Exorcists than 2 Priests. FNP is nice but it is only a marginal improvement over Iron Hands, and honestly TWC can get a 6+++ from their own dude and then a 4++ from Azrael. The only thing they were really allied in for was more Drop Pods and that was stopped.

The army will almost disappear entirely. Watch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

I'd rather ally in 3 Exorcists than 2 Priests. FNP is nice but it is only a marginal improvement over Iron Hands, and honestly TWC can get a 6+++ from their own dude and then a 4++ from Azrael. The only thing they were really allied in for was more Drop Pods and that was stopped.

The army will almost disappear entirely. Watch.

Exorcists (Sisters of Battle), Thunderwolf Cavalry (Space Wolves) and Azrael (Dark Angels) in one army...

You seriously give zero feths about any concept of lore, don't you?

I mean, anyone can not care. It takes real effort to not give a feth.

I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Sisters of Battle have a dedicated melee unit with no armor save at all. Like, not even against lasguns.

Their lore calls them a suicide unit and their gameplay matches that concept completely.