This is a little bit rantish so feel free to delete, but I am hoping for a sensible discussion about this.

Still, after I don't know how long, when I rock up to the local game group with my crons, I'm still met with groans of disgust and choruses of "they don't die".
Have they no been around long enough for us to know how to work around them with every army? Is the only solution people come up with now just " hey paul, grab your destroyer EEldar, we got Necrons over here."

I'm no stranger to how tough crons are, that's how they're supposed to be, pulling themselves back together with their living metal and all that. I've versed my fair share of decurion with my sisters, its been a learning curve but I've learned how to handle it. There's strategy.

Is it just a mentality that the little plastic models have to disappear. That models have to die and if entire units aren't being wiped out in a single phase then there's not enough damage being done moar dakka! Has our blood lust come to such a point that 40k has become about kill point and scratching kill notches into our carry cases like some khornate berserker? The amount of games I've won just by stoking my opponents lust for blood and making g them forget about the mission is both hilarious and depressing.

I've had some people rant that crons should t be able to get up at all, that even their 5+ is op...well last I checked nurgle had 5+ FNP which until it comes to I'd is exactly the same as the rp in which case it goes to 6+ and frankly is you're passing 6+ you deserve it.
If that's the sort of argument were stooping to, why don't we tell eldar they can't move more than 6" a turn or tell marines they have to follow the rules or orks and nids that they can't field hordes. Every army has their flavour and fluff.

If you approach a game from a narrative perspective, everything makes sense. I find some great narratives come from my games against necrons. Are we too competitive focused now? Have we lost our imaginations?!

People like cryin'

Its an incredibly unfun mechanic to deal with because there is literally no interaction with it you just roll dice and watch as your opponent doesn't lose any models. And unlike the previous editions of necrons where you could focus fire and wipe out the unit to the man as a counter tactic, there is literally nothing you can do about RP except take D weapons which only 1 army gets on more then just a LoW. All you get to do is roll dice and hope you get lucky.

A base of 5+ RP isn't that bad on warriors because it just makes them the equivalent of SMurfs but it adds up when its army wide on the already durable units like Immortals and Tomb Blades. And no Nurgle doesn't get 5+ FNP, thats only on a single elite unit choice that is very expensive and has drawbacks added (like SnP). A Tomb blade is basically the same price for the same durability but is also a jet bike.

What really makes it awful is Decurion. Makes RP an army wide 4+ which literally makes immortals 17 pt terminators and warriors 13 pt almost terminators so on and so forth. Especially awful with the Cynaptyk Harvest formation which makes Assault Terminators except with T5, 2W, and 12 movement with fleet. Mor then doubled the durabilty of one of the toughest SM units for the same price and is going to guarenteed assault something turn 2.

Look in the competitive scene Necrons aren't the best as they aren't great at objective games so they haven't made a significant torunement showing. But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.

 CrownAxe wrote:
But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.

That can be said about 40K, not just against Crons.

I find it frustrating that no matter how well i roll or developed strategies that my opponents models will just get up again. This is one of the reasons I dislike the formations of formations that give big bonuses. You get bonuses for no points.

Because people still have dexes that are way below the necrons' power level.

Davor wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.

That can be said about 40K, not just against Crons.

No army has it as bad as crons. Sure a lot of armies can make a silly death star or such but thats usually only a single unit in their army. I can do stuff to the rest of the army. Necrons is army wide unfun.

I personally don't have a problem with necrons. However, the complaints aren't generally because they have models/units that are extremely difficult to kill, it's that they have models/units that some consider too hard to kill for their points cost. Fluffwise necrons should be really tough to kill, but on the tabletop this should be balanced by point costs so they have far fewer models necessary to kill. Many feel, that with the formations, necrons don't have enough trade offs (not that they don't have any like lack of battle brothers, few AP 2 weapons and no psykers) for their incredible durability, making them overpowered/imbalanced.

I can personally see why people can't stand it. I have a damn good deal of AP4 weapons in my army but them still getting a 4+ save is demoralizing. For people to get by two 4+ saves it must feel insane.

It also brings up the mentality people approach it. They see you didn't pay for FnP, you just got it. That model should have been dead.

There is also the terminator test.

-Get hit with AP2 pieplate, the base Necron warrior is more durable and three times less expensive.
-Similar shooting.

People just expect points = usefulness, it often isn't the case.

 chalkobob wrote:
However, the complaints aren't generally because they have models/units that are extremely difficult to kill, it's that they have models/units that some consider too hard to kill for their points cost.

This. OP, the title of your post is "Why are people still crying about Necron RP?" The answer is very, very simple:

GW hasn't nerfed them yet.

Once GW nerfs them, people will stop complaining about a below-cost army. Saying "Why are people still crying about Necron RP?" is a lot like asking "why do people still go to jail for theft?"

I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

I get the feeling really that more and more the rules are emulating the fluff behind things, points aside.
If we looked at games more from a story telling perspective I feel things make a little more sense. I play to have fun and tell stories, that's why I don't field formations or decurion unless my opponent is too. When I walk away from a game there's a story to be told, not a kill score.

Vs tau, the only way I can stomach playing them is looking through the imaginary eyes of the models. On the table, that squad of stealth suits is right there in the open, what garbage is this givig them a cover save? Imagination eyes see some sorta shimmer maybe we should shoot it?

Edit:

I can concede that the crons are undercoated if we're going by mathhammer yada yada yada. Basic sister is 12pts, warrior is 13pts math and stat wise the difference is not well reflected.
Could there be a points increase, yeah more than likely.

I dunno, maybe I'm just tired and frustrated.
I love crons as they are, I feel this has been some of the best rules that closely resemble their fluff to date. But that's just my opinion

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

I said that in my post. That they aren't unbeatable. Its that the mechanic of not dying is not a fun mechanic to play against.

A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

Yoyoyo wrote:
People like cryin'

Agreed.

I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

If you can't see that it's not Eldar/SM/Tau that are complaining but the DE/BA/CSM level of players, then perhaps you should take a look at the steaming pile that those players have to call their codecies. The attitude that a bunch of people are whiners who need to l2p when you've had a top tier dex since the end of 5th isn't going to win you any friends bar the most one eyed eldar apologists.

Extra Credits actually talked about something similar in game design, namely that a mechanic has to be fun to fight against just as much as it is to use. I think CrownAxe summed it up perfectly; the old RP mechanic meant that you, as the opponent, has to tactically think about wiping out entire units to counteract RP rolls, but currently there's none of that. The Necrons can fight you to a stalemate and force the gameboard to remain exactly the same for turns on end, and it's never fun to keep chipping at the same unmoving brick wall for 4 hours, even if you do win at the end.

However, this wouldn't be the first time GW ended up goofing up one of the basic rules of game design, since they're "no longer a game company". :/

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

Necrons can win without wiping things out, too. So they have 2 ways to win, and other (nerfed) armies only have 1. And it's harder than it looks. Yes, my ork blobs are objective secured, and can take the mid objective at the end of turn 5. There is very litlte chance for them to filter through all the flayed ones, tomb blades, wraiths and ghost arks to get to the far objectives. How would such a blob ever get back there? If I try deff koptas, bikes, or other fast things, they aren't objective secured and so they can only contest, for one turn, then they die.

Oh, and my brilliant plan to grab objectives on turn five only works if the game actually ends on turn 5. If it goes on, then the tomb blades/flayed ones/wraiths/arks get to fire point blank at the wide open ork boyz in the top of turn 6...the only reason they are open is because they had to try to steal the game with a mad dash on turn 5.

How is that fun for the ork player? CSM?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.
The Warrior is vulnerable to Fear (yes I know this doesn't mean much) and Sweeping Advances while the Marine is not, however the Warrior has a higher Leadership. (not that Morale really matters in 40k outside of combat anymore).
The Marine has both Frag and Krak grenades, while the Warrior doesn't.
The Warrior does have gauss, allowing them to wound T8, 9 and 10 on 6s and glance AV 11+ on 6s. However the Marine can purchase a Special Weapon that is not only more likely to wound/glance/penetrate a tank or high-toughness model, but will also have a better AP value (1/2/3) to cause the wound to go unsaved/deal better damage on a pen. Against everything else it is just another boltgun.
The Warrior is only I2, meaning more of them will die in Melee leaving them with less attacks when their Initiative step comes making them more likely to lose combat. This I2 makes them very easy to Sweep as well.

Really, if you discount Decurion it is pretty balanced. The problem is the jump for a 5+++ to a 4+++ is massive and not even free Tanks can match it.

I know I know, and I don't mean to come across a s some elitist "l2p noob", I'm not, I'd be the first to admit to my exceedingly average abilities.
Honestly there's no way I can counter your arguments without seeming like a whiner. I know other codexes have got it tough personally I try to tone down my own lists to suit others cuz if there's one thing I like more than a good game is a close one.

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

That's said, I really wouldn't want to see warriors costed to their mathhammered appropriateness... 30something point warriors? Ouch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the newest formation have you automatically bring back wiped out warrior squads the next turn? Doesn't sound very fun trying to deal with RP, then having them auto-return anyway.

On the one hand, I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand it IS a game about combat, as well as objectives. If every game against crons boils down to 5+ turns of hide and seek then that seems like it'd get boring in a hurry.

Also, internet high-5 for a fellow Paul.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
That's said, I really wouldn't want to see warriors costed to their mathhammered appropriateness... 30something point warriors? Ouch.

Why not? You would get far more enjoyment out of the game if you had to play it, instead of just "walk forward onto objectives."

And we'd all shut up!

Because it's OP.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior is vulnerable to Fear (yes I know this doesn't mean much) and Sweeping Advances while the Marine is not, however the Warrior has a higher Leadership. (not that Morale really matters in 40k outside of combat anymore).

True enough.
Necrons have better units for melee combat, but it is true they can get wiped if they lose combat and break.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Marine has both Frag and Krak grenades, while the Warrior doesn't.

A minor thing. Frag is only useful if marines assault, which is rare. Necrons have gauss, which are a lot better than Krak grenades against most targets.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior does have gauss, allowing them to wound T8, 9 and 10 on 6s and glance AV 11+ on 6s. However the Marine can purchase a Special Weapon that is not only more likely to wound/glance/penetrate a tank or high-toughness model, but will also have a better AP value (1/2/3) to cause the wound to go unsaved/deal better damage on a pen. Against everything else it is just another boltgun.

Which raises their point cost even higher. A PG or melta nearly costs enough that the squad raises 1 ppm (so expect a marine squad to be really about 16-17 ppm after the two special weapons).
Not to mention that the weapons are specialized and sometimes the regular bolters are useless.
Against tanks, necrons are a lot better for the points unless the marine takes a drop pod and specs for melta, in which case they aren't nearly as good against GMCs. Necrons are okay against most targets.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior is only I2, meaning more of them will die in Melee leaving them with less attacks when their Initiative step comes making them more likely to lose combat. This I2 makes them very easy to Sweep as well.

True, if they lose combat.
Keep in mind that, generally speaking, the necron army has much better melee units than the marines do overall (wraiths against...bike squad with character?).
With a Decurion, the necrons are much tougher defensively against most targets. With their high leadership, you really need to win by 2 or more to see a break.

Against a lot of units, speaking as a wolves player, I'd much rather kill 8 marines with my TWC and catch them after breaking them so I'm safe on their turn, than sweep the necrons.
I know that seems really stupid (because it is) but its sadly how the rules function. ATSKNF is a weakness against the stronger CC units that will kill 10 marines in 2 turns of combat.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Really, if you discount Decurion it is pretty balanced. The problem is the jump for a 5+++ to a 4+++ is massive and not even free Tanks can match it.

The RP mechanic is good by itself, but Decurion pushes it over the edge.

But really looking at warriors are pointless. Warriors in general aren't want make the necrons scary, just like tacticals aren't why people are saying that the marine codex is top tier.

Akiasura wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.

Notice how I specifically said that I wasn't including the Decurion and that I was comparing it to an Iron Hands Tactical Marine? (ie. FnP(6+))

And I was responding to a post about Necron Warriors, hence why I didn't mention Flayed Ones or Wraiths. Those 2 units ARE too strong, but then so are gravcents and arguably gravbike command squads.
As a mechanic by itself, RP isn't OP and compared to a tactical marine, the Warrior is pretty balanced points-wise. You could argue it deserves to be 14 or even 15 or 16 points but that's about it. They certain't aren't worth 30 points. The problem is the Decurion and some of its formations giving a massive power boost and 2/3 units being too powerful for their own good.

Gauss as a mechanic exists because Necrons lack hard anti-tank for the most part. Without Gauss they'd have to rely on Triarch Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers to destroy AV13+ with any reliability, or to even scratch AV14 from range. Space Marines can take ranged hard AT across multiple units whether they be Scouts, Tacticals, Devastators, Cents, Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads... etc. Necrons can't and without Gauss would be severely limited when it comes to AT.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.

Notice how I specifically said that I wasn't including the Decurion and that I was comparing it to an Iron Hands Tactical Marine? (ie. FnP(6+))

I did notice the decurion (you'll notice I mention both, since many posters are specifically mentioning the decurion). I did not notice the IH, my mistake.
I think it's a little unfair to not include the decurion (+1 FnP essentially) but include the IH chapter tactics (+1 FnP, essentially) personally, but alright. Especially since it's not common to see the IH CT, but the decurion is pretty common, being such a good choice.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

And I was responding to a post about Necron Warriors, hence why I didn't mention Flayed Ones or Wraiths. Those 2 units ARE too strong, but then so are gravcents and arguably gravbike command squads.

I thought the space made it clear I was making a separate point in the same post. Sorry.
I don't understand why anyone is discussing warriors or tactical marines when discussing warrior RP. It's not a huge deal on them, though its certainly annoying.
It's the wraiths and other excellent units that make the RP annoying.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

As a mechanic by itself, RP isn't OP and compared to a tactical marine, the Warrior is pretty balanced points-wise.

It'd be hard to argue either way. A necron would probably be 1 point over costed if the RP was dropped, and I think other dexes pay a lot for 5+ FnP.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

You could argue it deserves to be 14 or even 15 or 16 points but that's about it. They certain't aren't worth 30 points.

Whoa, though is a bit of a slippery slope. We went from 16 to 30 in one jump.
I think a necron warrior can be worth 16-17 points. Their ability to target anything and get some work done, combined with the toughness, makes them a lot better than tacticals.
The decurion should raise their points 1-2 per model (essentially 10% of the models cost, for every model that benefits from the formation imo), but that's wildly off topic.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The problem is the Decurion and some of its formations giving a massive power boost and 2/3 units being too powerful for their own good.

True. Warriors possibly being undercosted isn't going to break the dex.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Gauss as a mechanic exists because Necrons lack hard anti-tank for the most part. Without Gauss they'd have to rely on Triarch Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers to destroy AV13+ with any reliability, or to even scratch AV14 from range.

Well, wraiths do just fine against most tanks in melee. Scarabs use to be good, spyders wouldn't be bad, lychguard could do in a pinch, but for the most part I think your point is mostly true.
But gauss being needed by the army doesn't impact how strong of a rule it is. A rule that says "Your basic gun will never be worthless, and in a few cases, is actually good" is very good on your cheap basic warrior. I don't think it's as good as bladestorm, but it's probably the 2nd best basic weapon (I don't consider scat lasers a basic weapon despite being spammed on troopers).

Oddly enough, I think necron come in 2nd for best army wide rules. Eldar battle focus is better than RP, but it's also better than chapter tactics, and eldar blade storm is arguably better than gauss (though bladestorm might not play well in the necron army...if heavy tanks made a come back that is).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Space Marines can take ranged hard AT across multiple units whether they be Scouts, Tacticals, Devastators, Cents, Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads... etc. Necrons can't and without Gauss would be severely limited when it comes to AT.

Well, let's be real, marines nowadays take grav for take out tanks. Cents with split fire can destroy 2 tanks a turn with ease.
PG and melta aren't bad, but command squads aren't going after tanks in a major way.

There's no denying the power of Decurion. But what do we get from just a stock standard CAD necron army? Is the codex really that so horribly op? Never been a fan of formation in normal 40k myself, they belong in apoc imo.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
There's no denying the power of Decurion. But what do we get from just a stock standard CAD necron army? Is the codex really that so horribly op? Never been a fan of formation in normal 40k myself, they belong in apoc imo.

Well, it certainly goes down in power a lot.
But you still have an excellent stable of units. Wraiths are still good, flayed ones are nice, lychguard aren't terrible, destroyers are good too.

It won't stand up there with the most competitive options, but it will still do a number on the weaker dexes.

I didn't include Decurion because it's a detachment. Chapter Tactics is something marines inherently have. I agree that Decurion is broken as all feth. But if we assume Decurion then it's only fair to assume that the Marines will have Doctrines and a free Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback in addition to ObjSec

Admittedly, I was cherry-picking the defensive CT... but as you said it's one of the less common ones when it comes to competitive play and that's because most of the others are better. (Which kinda reinforces my point if I'm picking one of the bad choices)

The 30pts figure came because someone earlier in the thread mention Warriors being balanced at 30pts each... Which is absurd.

I meant to say at range there with the AT part, whoops. But yes, Wraiths are great at taking them out in Melee.

I do agree that Gauss Flayer are the 2nd best basic weapon, but I do think they're massively overrated among many players. It takes 10 gauss shots to do 1 HP to a tank assuming it has no cover - which is really good, don't get me wrong - but many people seem to act like it's more than that and that those 10 shots will destroy a Land Raider every game.

So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

Try being a Squat.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

Pretty much. Necron CAD lists are decent, but far from overpowered or unfair except against the weakest lists (before someone points out that they are still better than BA). If you are taking the basic CAD people shouldn't be whining.

IMHO, the biggest groaning about Necrons that I've seen beyond the Decurion, are the under costed Wraiths. At least in my area.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

Well, the formations are official and legal/bound, which the players didn't write, they're part of the rules that define what an army is capable of. Therefor the army is the problem. You wouldn't blame the weakness of BA or CSM on the players, would you?

The difference being that Necron players CAN handicap themselves to play down to the level of BA and CSM, whereas BA and CSM players ARE handicapped without the choice to play up to the level of Necrons. Without any sort of penalty to balance out taking powerful formations, they're effectively -not- optional if you're playing competitively.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

That is an argument like "Weapons don't kill, people do".

If you don't give people weapons in the first place... well that's another story, but I think you know what I mean.

I don't like the RP for the same reason as many other said before: It's extreme unfun to play against as it is unfun to play aginst an army where nearly everything is twin linked.
But in general I think Necrons are okay in a CAD. Some units are way to strong for their points, but thats a general balance problem of GW. Other dexes are no better. The whole thing gets out of control if formations are involved. They make an unbalanced game even more unbalanced. Free force multipliers are totally stupid in my opinion. Thats why I stick to the normal CAD.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
... or tell marines they have to follow the rules or...

This line is so perfect.

Ehh, decurion isn't bad. No OS makes its pretty easy to win. The only part that is scary is the wraith formation but if you get some str 10 or kill the spider that takes care of itself as well. They can't kill anything in close combat outside one or two units, their death star is super slow, and ey have no hit and run.

Personally I use force weapons.

Playing Necrons is like playing Tau.

Theoretically it can be great fun! They have loads of cool units that do fun stuff, an awesome walker, cool flyers, jetpack troops deepstrike troops....

Buuuuuuuuut what you're going to get is a decurion, wraith formation, destroyer formation. MAYBE an unkillable brick wall of Lychguard. And it's gonna move 6" towards you, and shoot everything at you, and ignore everything you shoot back.

For 5+ turns.

And you're going to remove maybe 12 models from the table.

And if you win, you lose 90% of your force doing it, and will mostly win by sitting in endless close combats with your Obsec units on objectives.

Fun fun fun fun fun.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Extra Credits actually talked about something similar in game design, namely that a mechanic has to be fun to fight against just as much as it is to use. I think CrownAxe summed it up perfectly; the old RP mechanic meant that you, as the opponent, has to tactically think about wiping out entire units to counteract RP rolls, but currently there's none of that. The Necrons can fight you to a stalemate and force the gameboard to remain exactly the same for turns on end, and it's never fun to keep chipping at the same unmoving brick wall for 4 hours, even if you do win at the end.

However, this wouldn't be the first time GW ended up goofing up one of the basic rules of game design, since they're "no longer a game company". :/

Quoted for truth and exalted! This is the real reason Necrons are not fun; much more so than their overpowered-ness.

People cry to much in general in regards to this hobby and Necrons I feel are caught up in the Xenos hate that appears to be so popular nowadays. Regardless how people feel about it this is accurate to the fluff, its what makes Necrons such a terrifying and tough opponent. Watching as they slowly trudge towards you, piecing themselves back together regardless what you throw at them, coming closer and closer, the embodiment of death. Weight of fire and template weapons have always done great against Necrons in my experience, also I can't tell you how many times there reanimation protocol whiffed during a game.

Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

Yes, the trope of indestructable troops is very much a Necron concept. A very unique and enjoyable one.

But the effectiveness of this needs to be reflected in the points cost of the Necrons themselves. Otherwise, what's stopping me from taking a Warrior at 1 ppm? "It's fluffy, what's the problem?" That's the kind of response being said. Yes, it's fluffy, but the points need to reflect this very powerful ability, to stop it being absolutely game breaking and unfun for opponents.

Hell, if we took half the things that Marines do in fluff, there wouldn't be any hope for any other armies. That's because they have to (somewhat) balanced in the game (yes, I mention somewhat, as Gladius and grav are pretty damn good!).

The points of Tactical Marine are fairly accurate. A Decurion Necron is very powerful for it's durability, so much so that it should have a significant increase in points.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

Against Necrons? Try being the poor dumb*** who runs mono-Tzeentch Daemons.

At least the Chaos Marines will kill 6 Necrons!
The only thing Tzeentch's boys are going to do is make those Res Protocols into an army-wide 2+++.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

I was at an ITC GT in summer where in round 6, there were two necron players in a mirror match effectively vying for best necrons. The big shocker about the game was that no one scored first blood.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

I was at an ITC GT in summer where in round 6, there were two necron players in a mirror match effectively vying for best necrons. The big shocker about the game was that no one scored first blood.

That sounds about right.

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

If you can't see that it's not Eldar/SM/Tau that are complaining but the DE/BA/CSM level of players, then perhaps you should take a look at the steaming pile that those players have to call their codecies. The attitude that a bunch of people are whiners who need to l2p when you've had a top tier dex since the end of 5th isn't going to win you any friends bar the most one eyed eldar apologists.

every time someone brings up IK being to hard to kill... Dude, I would rather fight 2 IK than 1 Eldar Wraithknights!

TBH if RP worked similar to the old WBB, instead of just acting like ANOTHER save, it probably wouldn't even be an issue.

If your Warrior fails his 4+, he falls over and at the end of the phase, you roll your RP. If the whole unit has been wiped out, the squad is dead unless a Spider or a Res Orb is nearby.

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

You... you're joking, right?

Heavy Flamers slaughter Necron Warriors. Heavy Bolters are almost as good. Melta-Minions are great at anything, and nothing takes down Lychguard like mass S5 - and nobody does mass S5 better than Sisters except Tau, and Tau can't come close to our accuracy.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

lol, next time you think you might be facing Knights, try bringing some Repentia...

Well this was solved in the olden days with Phase Out.

A heavy flamer that manages to hit 5 decurion warriors kills 1.6.

The bolters in the rest of the squad kill .16 each.

That does not an efficient counter make.

If I ever get an opportunity to fight a Necron CAD I'll let you know how it goes. In my local meta Necron is my most common opponent and I've never seen it taken as anything other than Decurion. 4+++ is absolutely insane army-wide and since formation/detachment bonuses are free it doesn't cost you anything to get the better RP. This holds up against other 7.5 armies (Eldar, SM, Tau) who also run their detachments and that's fine but even running a normal CAD of a 7.5 dex can be daunting against crons, with the exception of running an all OP unit list anyways. And what is the "tax" of the Decurion anyways? Anything you see in its core is good and is likely something you'd take anyways. Then when you get to auxiliaries you can take your picks and there are some really good options there too.

Of course now any dex that isn't up to snuff in the power curve (chaos, DE, BA, Orks etc...) can't compete at all. To be fair any low power level dex player is probably not complaining just about your crons, they're complaining about being left in the dust by every new dex since crons.

It's been touched on before but I'll mention it cause it's true: fluffy rules do not always equal fun for everyone. To be honest the old reanimation protocols were probably fluffier, seeing models tip over only to have them stand back up. Now essentially you have a beefed up FnP. Fighting an army to only kill 3 or 4 models is disheartening and essentially playing cat and mouse with objectives for 6 turns gets dry real fast. Objective placement is a huge thing to consider too, if the cron side of the table has a good number of the objectives (via player-placed objective rules in the BRB) then he doesn't even have to go far before bubble-wrapping the objectives then laughing as you fruitlessly attempt to shift his models off of them.

Even if you have ObSec the cron strategy is typically: Advance 6" shoot, Advance 6" shoot. Bubblewrap objective shoot. Other armies you can try to focus fire and shift of important objectives, you can threaten them with big weapons that deny their armour. You can't against crons. It's tough to even leverage a great melee advantage either cause they're all WS 4 for some reason, lychguard and such make sense but why does the basic warrior need to be WS 4, he's not a melee combatant. That means that 50% of your attacks hit and then he's got crazy survivability, at Ld10 even if you do win by a couple kills you've only knocked the cron down to the basic Ld of most other armies troops. Initiative two is their only weakness in this regard.

I wouldn't mind if their Decurion modified their RP a bit but making the jump straight from 5+++ to 4+++ is pushing it.

Inevitable brings up a good point I've thought about before: why on earth are cron warriors WS4?

I personally don't have a problem with RP (even in a Decurion), though I do think it's extremely powerful and one of the best faction perks in the game. On the other hand, I TOTALLY understand the perspective of the people who do have an issue with it.

In my observation, these are people who have problems with ALL the really good stuff in the game: invisible deathstars, scatterbikes, free gladius vehicles, BA drop pods, eldar distortion weapons, imperial knights, tau ignore cover, et cetera.

Essentially, the problem boils down to this: if your opponent has one of the really good things in the game, there are only two viable counters. Take something else really good, or go MSU and win on the objectives. To some people, this is not a satisfying game.

And honestly, to me, it's not a satisfying game either. I don't want to play a Dark Eldar CAD versus a Necron Decurion. It's a total waste of my time. There's no reasonable way that I can win even a quarter of my games, even if my opponent is lousy, and I'm rolling hot and they're making poor game board decisions; and they wouldn't switch sides with me for the same reason. I don't want to play imperial guard and hope that I score enough points before the game ends, or that I'm wiped out. So why don't I have a problem with the really good stuff?

Well, I simply choose to play games that are relatively even in power levels I guess I've just never had a problem finding a partner to play a game of either high or low power level, depending on my mood.

the_scotsman wrote:
A heavy flamer that manages to hit 5 decurion warriors kills 1.6.

The bolters in the rest of the squad kill .16 each.

That does not an efficient counter make.

Your mistake is not enough heavy flamers. Use Retributors.

In my area where we play competitively at 1500 (sometimes 1650) points, Necrons are very average. To get a Decurion functioning well I feel you really need at least 1850 points. The Necron players either have a non-Decurion list which does ok damage but gets shot off the table or have a Decurion list which is more resilient but does very little damage.

I think the problem stems when playing non-competitively because RP isn't a result of some killer combo, it's a basic trait of the army. So an average Necron army is pretty hard compared to an average SM list. In a competitive environment it just isn't spectacular IMO.

People can whine and whine about the 4+++. However, the biggest thing for me is Move Through Cover AND Relentless. I charge Warriors into infantry all the time because of it.

Nurgle troops and Nurgle Marked unuts dont just "Get FNP" neither. Im not sure what BS comparison youre trying to make to make yourself feel better, but Plague Bearers dont get FNP unless accompanied by a herald with Fecunfity. And Nurgle CSM dont get FNP period. Plague Marines can only be taken as troops if you take an 80 point Chaos Lord of Nurgle. And he comes stock with absolutely nothing decent nor worth mentioning.

An army wide 5+ FNP is just disgustingly over the top. As mentioned before, there is no reason for it. The models are under costed and out perform models of higher point values with little to no downsides. The game drags on and math hammering out the army just flat out maths you to death with its rule set.

So...

Original Poster, are you writing this stuff down?

Did it answer your question?

and if this

" hey paul, grab your destroyer EEldar, we got Necrons over here."

Is true, why are you still whining about EEldar?

With unkillable units bubble-wrapping objectives, there is litterally NO WAY FOR THE OTHER SIDE TO WIN. Do you get this now?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

You... you're joking, right?

Heavy Flamers slaughter Necron Warriors. Heavy Bolters are almost as good. Melta-Minions are great at anything, and nothing takes down Lychguard like mass S5 - and nobody does mass S5 better than Sisters except Tau, and Tau can't come close to our accuracy.

No, they don't, and no, they aren't. Warriors are still getting their 4+++, sometimes re-rolling 1's, Emperor help you if you need to take out immortals and they're the troops choices! Not to mention that if you're close enough to fire a heavy flamer, you're going to get charged and swept next turn. Heavy bolters are forced to contend with cover for warriors and 3+/4+++ for immortals. Even rets with Heavy bolters aren't a good answer against immortals and who is taking rets instead of exos anyway unless you're running a blob army (hell, even if you're running a blob army)?

Tau can't come close to your accuracy? Do ... Do you know what markerlights are? Have you heard about a Hunter Contingent? This is one of the more rediculous statements I've heard on these forums, and that's saying something!

Have you seen what wraiths are like now? Nothing sisters have doubles them out, they move 12" a turn and the 3++/4+++ means you could fire your entire army at them for 2 turns and consider yourself lucky if you manage to remove 3 of them. Even without reanimation ('cause lets face it, you're going to try and kills the spyder 1st) it takes 11 melta/exo shots to kill a wraith. 11! I know we're one of the most capable armies to spam melta with, but that's rediculous!

Sisters aren't terrible, definately not as bad as most make them out to be, but they can't compete against crons.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

lol, next time you think you might be facing Knights, try bringing some Repentia...

Repentia? Seriously? How the hell are they going to get anywhere near the knights without a stormraven or landraider. Yes, if they get there, the knight is dead, but they're not going to get there, because the instant they step out of their transport, they're dead. They get mowed down by stubbers for crying out loud. Not to mention that list tailoring is bad. No, if I'm having trouble with knights as sisters, I should be taking more meltas, not wasting points on utter trash like repentia. For the points I'd spend on an ally for an assault transport and a squad of repentia, I could get another CAD with min troops and more dominions which are better in every concievable situation.

The point wasn't that sisters struggle against knights (they shouldn't), the point was that most armies find that half or more of their firepower is wasted against a knight army, and that it's not fun. I know, I've got a knight army and it rarely comes out to play beyond apoc and select tournaments for this reason, because my opponents, win or lose, don't have fun playing against it.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
This is a little bit rantish so feel free to delete, but I am hoping for a sensible discussion about this.

Still, after I don't know how long, when I rock up to the local game group with my crons, I'm still met with groans of disgust and choruses of "they don't die".
Have they no been around long enough for us to know how to work around them with every army? Is the only solution people come up with now just " hey paul, grab your destroyer EEldar, we got Necrons over here."

I hate to say it, but in many instances, no, there's not much many other armies can do. Much like with Eldar, there's no new "trick" to learn, no hidden "weakness" to take advantage of, the Necrons are simply just better than they were, and yes, that much insanely harder to kill, without any corresponding increase in killing power to deal with it, particularly with Decurion bonuses.

Can some armies deal with them? Sure, Eldar, Space Marines, etc. Can other armies do so? Not on anything near an equal basis (and especially without including allies from other armies). Try finding a battle report on IG vs Necrons where the IG win, and if you can find one, compare it to the number where the Necrons win, it'll be overwhelmingly in favor of the Necrons. I don't think I saw a Batrep where the IG won vs Necrons until the second half of 2015, and even those are almost impossible to find. Same with Chaos Space Marines.



.

Is it just a mentality that the little plastic models have to disappear. That models have to die and if entire units aren't being wiped out in a single phase then there's not enough damage being done moar dakka!

In some cases, sure. In others, no, when you actually look at the average amount of fire some Necron units can take, it's simply so far beyond what their opposition is capable of mustering that there's nothing an opponent can do but throw spitwads and hope the Necron player rolls statistically improbable poor results.

Most starkly, if you look at something like Wraiths in a Decurion, they require nearly 900 Lasgun shots to kill a unit of 6, and more S10 AP1 firepower to kill than you'd typically need to bring down a Warhound Titan. Granted, you can nullify some of that by killing the Spyder in the Harvest formation, but that's often difficult in and of itself if the Necron player has any sort of brain, and then there may be no firepower left over to engage much of anything else, and even without such benefits, the Wraiths are absolutely absurdly over-resielient for their speed and cost.

Even the basic Necron Warrior, when getting full Decurion & Legion benefits, is beyond reasonably hard to kill. They can take almost as much small arms fire as Terminators at 13pts a pop, while being vastly more resistant to heavy AP2/1/D/Grav/Etc weapons that erase Terminators, with their only real weakness being things like Heavy Bolters if they're caught out in the open (where they're still not terribly easy to kill between a 4+RP roll that gets to reroll 1's).

The problem with RP has many levels. It always functions (unlike other abilities like FNP and previous iterations of RP/WBB) and there's no way to negate it (e.g. Instant Death or wiping out the entire unit in one phase with concentrated fire), and it applies on *every* wound, not just the *last* wound like it used to (which vastly increases multi-wound model survvivability), and to compound that they gave more models more wounds (e.g. Destroyers), on top of doing silly things like giivng already bemoaned Wraiths a Toughness boost.

The army just went overboard on survivability. Even this might have been ok if the army were slow and ponderous, bu Necrons can absolutely be amongst the fastest armies in the game, with probably still the best flyers (and by far the best flyer transports), a curiously 4HP transport with even more firepower that can Jink and still have dudes inside fire to full extent after disembarking and relrentless assault, and Jetbikes with incredible speed and hilariously cheap 3+ save upgrades.

The army just works astoundingly well on every level. It's fast. It's incredibly hard to kill. and they certainly don't lack for killing power.

I've had some people rant that crons should t be able to get up at all, that even their 5+ is op...well last I checked nurgle had 5+ FNP which until it comes to I'd is exactly the same as the rp in which case it goes to 6+ and frankly is you're passing 6+ you deserve it.

5+FNP can be negated and isn't being enhanced significantly, and the Nurgle Daemons aren't getting FNP across the board like they used to, and are slow and aren't shooting anything, nor do they have a 4+ or 3+ armor save on top of that, nor generally any shooting. Meanwhile the Necrons have solid shooting, are typically Relentless, and aren't slow at all.

If that's the sort of argument were stooping to, why don't we tell eldar they can't move more than 6" a turn or tell marines they have to follow the rules or orks and nids that they can't field hordes. Every army has their flavour and fluff.

There's flavor, and then there's "oh they went wayyyyy too far".

If you approach a game from a narrative perspective, everything makes sense.

By that standard an IG player should be able to drop a basilisk shell on every unit before the game starts to because of their preliminary bombardments (and they used to have rules to such effect). You probably wouldn't find that very fun however. Neither do people enjoy games where they can't do anything to their opponent's armies.

 Vaktathi wrote:

If you approach a game from a narrative perspective, everything makes sense.

By that standard an IG player should be able to drop a basilisk shell on every unit before the game starts to because of their preliminary bombardments (and they used to have rules to such effect). You probably wouldn't find that very fun however. Neither do people enjoy games where they can't do anything to their opponent's armies.

And if the IG player loses then the opponents army is automatically wiped out in the ensuing exterminatus.

I'm fine with things being powerful and I love when things from the background are reflected on the table top. What I have a problem with is things being undercosted or as GW has done lately with formations is give bonuses for free, just take these units you were going to anyway and get all these MEGA bonuses. It derails the game and limits what you see on the table.

RP is really the only thing going for Necrons now. I do not consider them top tier.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RP is really the only thing going for Necrons now. I do not consider them top tier.

They seem to be ranking pretty consistently from what I can see. Just off the top of my head I know they made top 10 at both Nova and Adepticon, they appear to place highly rather consistently.

I had a big block of text to go here but dropped out of reception as I was sending it and lost it all.

Basic jist I yes I get it, crons are tough, as I said I've versed my fair share and I can concede many arguments especially the undercosted units.

But because decurion exists doesn't mean it has to be taken and its people grabbing the shiniest to be the biggest kid on the block that's caused most the problems. Decurion decurion decurion always the recurring argument. We have tongues in our heads, and this is a social game; when did we stop communicating with our opponents to work together to make a game both sides can enjoy instead of grumbling and tailoring?

Because communication shouldn't exist outside of deciding point values and missions.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I had a big block of text to go here but dropped out of reception as I was sending it and lost it all.

Basic jist I yes I get it, crons are tough, as I said I've versed my fair share and I can concede many arguments especially the undercosted units.

But because decurion exists doesn't mean it has to be taken and its people grabbing the shiniest to be the biggest kid on the block that's caused most the problems. Decurion decurion decurion always the recurring argument. We have tongues in our heads, and this is a social game; when did we stop communicating with our opponents to work together to make a game both sides can enjoy instead of grumbling and tailoring?

Because if it's available, and the player actively wants to win, like say at an event with a best general prize, it WILL be taken. TO's can't do anything about it because they don't want a bunch of angry necron players screaming at them about how Decurion isn't the only broken thing in the game (and it isn't.)

Even in casual play sometimes people want to win. Telling the necron player time after time "eh I don't feel up to versing Decurion today" is BOUND to get old to them.

And honestly the necron players shouldn't have to hold back. It isn't their fault Decurion is broken. It isn't the other factions' faults that some of them get rolled by it without a dice-related miracle. It's the game designer's fault for sucking at their job and lowering the quality of the game at large.

Clearly I'm part of a minority that are of a very different mentality. If my desire to play was tied to my win tally, I would never play. I play for fun and try to actively seek out other player who play for fun.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Clearly I'm part of a minority that are of a very different mentality. If my desire to play was tied to my win tally, I would never play. I play for fun and try to actively seek out other player who play for fun.

But different people find different things fun. An Eldar player could find playing an all jetbike army fun, or an all wraith units army fun. They get punished for enjoying what they do in the form of people not playing them because it isn't fun for the other player because GW cannot or will not balance the game effectively.

And if GW were good at its job of making a balanced game then it wouldn't matter what specific things about the game that people found fun as everyone could play everyone and have a good time.

Well then I think we've come to a cyclic argument where the only solution is for developer correction but as long as GWs view is:
Sales: first
Game: what's that?
We will only see greater disparagements and power creep. How does balance get implemented? Gradual codex "nerf" till all are the same level? En mass? That won't happen.

Except that you can play a Jetbike themed army without taking the best build (does your "Jetbike themed" army REALLY need 2 wraithknights?) or a wraith army without the best build (bet you a dime they don't include Wraithlords or Wraithblades, 2 of the 4 wraith units )

If you find it "fun" BECAUSE your opponents can never win, then yeah, players like that are being jerks. It'd be great if GW fixed that. But that's not the player "enjoying the flavor" that's them taking pleasure in having an unfair advantage.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Clearly I'm part of a minority that are of a very different mentality. If my desire to play was tied to my win tally, I would never play. I play for fun and try to actively seek out other player who play for fun.

Winning isn't necessary for me to have fun, but having a fair battle is.

Also, I remember when my SOB exorcists could one shot wraiths. That was my only protection against them. Now? I'm not sure what I'd do. Probably roll on the ground and die.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I had a big block of text to go here but dropped out of reception as I was sending it and lost it all.

Basic jist I yes I get it, crons are tough, as I said I've versed my fair share and I can concede many arguments especially the undercosted units.

But because decurion exists doesn't mean it has to be taken and its people grabbing the shiniest to be the biggest kid on the block that's caused most the problems. Decurion decurion decurion always the recurring argument. We have tongues in our heads, and this is a social game; when did we stop communicating with our opponents to work together to make a game both sides can enjoy instead of grumbling and tailoring?

The problem is that many people show up to play a game with a pre-built army list, they want to play a specific list, this is very common in pickup play, and often that'll be a Decurion. Additionally, the Decurion can be fluffy, there's an attractiveness in that, that fact that it enhances the strengths of the Necrons for new additional cost is just a pleasant bonus for some, and of course, at a tournament, people are going to bring their most powerful list.

If you're got a small group of pals where you talk a lot about what each player will play and everyone understands that bringing a face smashing list will result in a poor experience for all, things can be adjusted and everyone can have a great experience. Unfortunately many, if not most, gamers don't have this kind of a tight knit playgroup, instead relying on pickup games of various sorts, even often store/club league play will be very Pickup centric or may have a competitive impetus behind it even if they're not trying to replicate a tournament.

This isn't unique to Necrons, 7th edition as a whole is like this and is why there's so much discontent in general.

The reason we have the new fnp rules to begin with is people complained that mss was op. Tesla snap shots were unfair, and spiders and scarabs needed to be nerfed too. Give me back my old necrons and stop your bitching, we didn't ask for these new rules, you did!

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Clearly I'm part of a minority that are of a very different mentality. If my desire to play was tied to my win tally, I would never play. I play for fun and try to actively seek out other player who play for fun.

Since winning isn't that critical, you can always play against Eldar scatbikes. For fun. Problem solved.

 darthdaddy wrote:
The reason we have the new fnp rules to begin with is people complained that mss was op. Tesla snap shots were unfair, and spiders and scarabs needed to be nerfed too. Give me back my old necrons and stop your bitching, we didn't ask for these new rules, you did!

That is the lamest excuse i've heard yet. Nothing about balancing old issues has anything to do with new unrelated broken issues.

My best friend at our local store plays Necrons. Everytime I play him I feel like flipping the table. It's gotten better after twisting some wrists for the group to mix in maelstrom with their "kill everything" games, and I can camp objectives with daemons. The main issue here tho? My friend doesn't use decursion for most games, and in fact takes suboptimal units just to try and be fair. You know how many times he has Lost since he began playing? Once, and that was him forgetting since neither side was budging and he was facing Eldar cheese from 7th.

Currently I think Necrons went from bad to worse. MSS were the bane of my existence in 6th, as I primarily melee'd with my Nurgle daemons and black Templar, and auotlost because that item was sooooo cheap and broken that I would forfeit games if they were taken. Now we have these situations with 4++ retooling 1's, with forces speeding across the field (jetbikes and wraiths), while his Warlord has NEVER died. One on one challenges against a Great Unclean One with fleshbane AP2? Nope, not even a wound.

Another very very bad issue is the crappy weight distribution on the Necron fliers. You can almost guarantee that at least one will tip over every turn, crushing your models for real.

autumnlotus wrote:
My best friend at our local store plays Necrons. Everytime I play him I feel like flipping the table. It's gotten better after twisting some wrists for the group to mix in maelstrom with their "kill everything" games, and I can camp objectives with daemons. The main issue here tho? My friend doesn't use decursion for most games, and in fact takes suboptimal units just to try and be fair. You know how many times he has Lost since he began playing? Once, and that was him forgetting since neither side was budging and he was facing Eldar cheese from 7th.

Currently I think Necrons went from bad to worse. MSS were the bane of my existence in 6th, as I primarily melee'd with my Nurgle daemons and black Templar, and auotlost because that item was sooooo cheap and broken that I would forfeit games if they were taken. Now we have these situations with 4++ retooling 1's, with forces speeding across the field (jetbikes and wraiths), while his Warlord has NEVER died. One on one challenges against a Great Unclean One with fleshbane AP2? Nope, not even a wound.

Either you're exaggerating or it was a very isolated case of (un)luck.

A GUO, without fleshbane mind you, should be making 1 to 2 wounds every turn (after saves) against an Overlord. At the same time, an Overlord (equipped with the flesbane relic) should make 1 wound each turn, reduced to one wound every other turn when not equipped with the flesbane relic. Seeing has how a GUO has double the wounds of a Necron Overlord, I hardly see how the GUO would lose unless there were some (un)lucky dice involved.

If his warlord has NEVER died, maybe you should look at your own army and figure out what's wrong with it instead of looking for fault with your friends army because mine dies nearly every game because my opponents realize it's a priority target because he is the one allowing the Reanimation rolls of 1 to be rerolled.

Also you're contradicting yourself, because you say your friend almost never uses a Decurion, but go on to rant about how you have to deal with 4++, re-rolling 1's which is actually the benefit given by the decurion and one of the formations from it.

 darthdaddy wrote:
The reason we have the new fnp rules to begin with is people complained that mss was op. Tesla snap shots were unfair, and spiders and scarabs needed to be nerfed too. Give me back my old necrons and stop your bitching, we didn't ask for these new rules, you did!

Mind Shackle Scarabs were overpowered. A 3D6 leadership+1 test to avoid not only doing zero damage to your opponent that turn but, to add salt to the wound, to instead hit yourself in the face was absurd. When your opponent can die in close combat against your model without the combat even getting to your initiative step you potentially have a very broken mechanic.

Which army doesn't have one or two op rules? I lost close combat and had my whole unit swept just as many times as mss helped me win in close combat. It balanced out having a op captain or hq killing 3-6 models and easily sweeping the whole unit. The new fnp rules are a direct result of this issue. The decurion is another issue. I believe this was designed to replace the attacks our crypteks and C'tan use to have. As I have stated I would be happy to go back. I feel like how I played my Necrons was unique before, now it's cookie cutter. I don't want to play the way GW wants Necrons to play.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

This

 darthdaddy wrote:
Which army doesn't have one or two op rules? I lost close combat and had my whole unit swept just as many times as mss helped me win in close combat. It balanced out having a op captain or hq killing 3-6 models and easily sweeping the whole unit. The new fnp rules are a direct result of this issue. The decurion is another issue. I believe this was designed to replace the attacks our crypteks and C'tan use to have. As I have stated I would be happy to go back. I feel like how I played my Necrons was unique before, now it's cookie cutter. I don't want to play the way GW wants Necrons to play.

Chaos Marines have exactly 0 op rules, while Chaos Daemons only requires an investment of at least 600+pts to build their op combos.

And yet more tournaments are won by SM than any other army.

 darthdaddy wrote:
And yet more tournaments are won by SM than any other army.

That's because Space Marines have grav weapons, ignore sweeping advances etc. Chaos Marines don't. They have the high price per model without the advantages in special rules or wargear, unless they spend more points and still typically get less effective versions.

Chaos Marines << Space Marines in terms of power level.

I've always hated this attitude by people playing shooting armies.

I paid 40 points for a weapon, 35 points for armor, 50 points for better combat stats and 35 points for an assault transport to get them there. You paid points for the ability to shoot at supremely long range. I don't want 10 point upgrades to deflect your shooting back at you, you paid points for that shooting. I don't want invuln saves on all my models for free, you paid points for low AP.

This means, when you shoot at me, I remove models. No complaint there, I'm not asking for the ability to shoot back on your turn.

But the second my assault units might actually get some points back for all the melee abilities I bought, people playing shooting armies think they deserve to get 15 point upgrades to invalidate 150+ point characters, they think they're justified that they get to shoot out of turn sequence at me for no cost, and they still find one of the very, very few assault-favoring rules in the game oh so broken.

 darthdaddy wrote:
And yet more tournaments are won by SM than any other army.

Nice claim there, could use some evidence in it though, in case you wanted to back up your point.

https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/t3_armies.php?cid=0&gid=3

I can't believe how long it has taken for people to realize that MSS was overpowered

It was just as broken and dumb on the first day of that Necron Codex release as it was on the last, as I recall only Calgar ever gained immunity to it through selective wording on his leadership rule

Necrons are a poorly written Codex because as one person pointed out it fails the basics of game design which is to facillitate an experience where both people get enjoyment from playing. If you play someone with an Astra Militarum army, you could very well get blown off the board, but odds are you'll kill a lot of Guardsmen or blow up some light vehicles first. Its okay to have things like common place AV14 tanks if an assault is basically a guaranteed kill for most units and at its side armour it becomes almost 20% more vulnerable. There are clear, massive vulnerabilities that any army can take advantage of, and make things not just a binary outcome on those poiints for the other player.

With Necrons, if you came across pre-nerfed MSS, your character was screwed the vast majority of the time. There was no defence, no way to plan for it, (outside of Calgar) you could only just refuse and try kill the Lord in shooting or by other means. If you take a heavy melee character, well that investment just became invalid. With the RP Decurion abuse, there's no way for all but one army to really destroy it. Its something that is so likely to work it is basically guaranteed - like taking a Land Raider that's venerable, has melta immunity and can also be hit only on 6's, even in melee. Like playing Starcraft in a video game or whatever and suddenly your opponent gets a god unit as part of his faction that you can only avoid or hope doesn't influence the game outcome. That's a sign of a terrible strategy element.

If that wasn't bad enough, those warriors all have gauss so as part of the deal the Necron player gets that much extra anti-tank/anti-mc firepower thrown in. And surely, this investment, its a massive sacrifice for the Necron player to take, with high oppurtunity cost? Lol no.

Yeah, you can rinse repeat recite lines about how Necrons are beatable by xyz codex or select strategy all day long Sun Tzu but if they fail at being fun to play against on this level, they're overall a failure as a Codex.

All I'm getting here is yet another Top 3 army getting salty that people don't enjoy playing them. What a surprise.

Lets talk about how you outplay a Necron army.

...oh wait you can't. You are forced to accept their pace because they will always trade effectively.
-Alpha strike is like a serving platter
-Castling is pointless in the current edition of 40k,
-Shoot-n-Scoot is only possible by Xenos armies and only used to the full potential with Eldar.

There are no tactics a person can leverage against them in general. There is no room to outplay them, you *have* to rely on beating them on points.

Dark Eldar - Fragile
Grey Knights - Low model count
Imperial Guard - No real strength to speak of
Orks - Low armor and LD
Sisters of Battle - Suffer from low toughness and AV units

All of these armies have a weakness that can be used and be relied upon. The generals of those armies build their list to minimize the weakness; Necrons don't have to build around a weakness because they have none (Same story for Eldar and SM; Tau is approaching it with assault and psychic being dump stats)

the_scotsman wrote:
I've always hated this attitude by people playing shooting armies.

I paid 40 points for a weapon, 35 points for armor, 50 points for better combat stats and 35 points for an assault transport to get them there. You paid points for the ability to shoot at supremely long range. I don't want 10 point upgrades to deflect your shooting back at you, you paid points for that shooting. I don't want invuln saves on all my models for free, you paid points for low AP.

This means, when you shoot at me, I remove models. No complaint there, I'm not asking for the ability to shoot back on your turn.

But the second my assault units might actually get some points back for all the melee abilities I bought, people playing shooting armies think they deserve to get 15 point upgrades to invalidate 150+ point characters, they think they're justified that they get to shoot out of turn sequence at me for no cost, and they still find one of the very, very few assault-favoring rules in the game oh so broken.

Loyalist Marine & Tau players I find are the worst for this...

Eldar players being arrogant d-bags is really just an epic example of "forging the narrative" and really playing into the character of their army!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 darthdaddy wrote:
The reason we have the new fnp rules to begin with is people complained that mss was op. Tesla snap shots were unfair, and spiders and scarabs needed to be nerfed too. Give me back my old necrons and stop your bitching, we didn't ask for these new rules, you did!

That is the lamest excuse i've heard yet. Nothing about balancing old issues has anything to do with new unrelated broken issues.

Not to mention the fact that MSS was introduced simultaneously with the FnP rules, which means that anything relating to MSS cannot be blamed for the change to Resurrection Protocols.

My whole point is Necron players didn't ask for these changes. People complaining about Necrons did. I find the irony delicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mss and fnp rules may have been created at the same time, however the new rp/fnp rule was created at the same time we lost mss in its old form.

I recently got into 40k with my cousin, him playing necrons and me playing CSM. Now, we both just pick units that look cool and dont really care about power too much, but I gotta say, in the 4 games we have played, I have won one, and thats only because he is still learning certain rules. We played 2000 points last night and by the end of the game I won on objectives, but he removed about 1400 points of my army, and I killed a squad of 5 lychguard, 3 immortals, and a monolith. The most annoying thing to play against them is that he far outshoots me, every turn he wiped something off the board, where I would remove maybe a model in my shooting phase. Its hard to enjoy the victory when your hiding behind cover in the objectives the whole time too afraid to move because you will die, and in the process maybe kill 2 or 3 troops of his. if it wasn't for the obliterators making saves on over 900 points of shooting at them, I would have lost.

The most annoying thing about playing him is I need to pay for meltas out the wazhoo and hope to god they hit to get through his armor, while his troops wound anything on 6s. I'm more scared of Gauss then I am of 4+RP. in the games we have played a simple squad of warriors or immortals have killed countless rhinos, heldrakes, and killed my landraider in 1 turn of shooting, from just basic troops! Everyone says on here that its statistically impossible, but he rolls sixes like theres no tomorrow. Sure I can stay back and not get in rapid fire range, but to kill anything with the 4+ I gotta send everything in close with heavy weapons, which usually get blasted by all the firepower he has. Hell, I could do my full turn sequence before he even gets done half his shooting!

He basically runs a squad of 10 immortals, 2x 10 warriors, 2 monoliths, 2 anni barges, doomsday ark, 4 wraiths, 5 lynchguard, and a stalker. Everything in that list can kill anything I can bring, without having to specialize units to deal with a certain type of threat, while I pay out the wazoo for certain squads that are meant for one purpose. Now im not too sure if its more of a necron problem or a fact that CSM are in bad need of a better codex, or both. Even though I have won one game, its an uphill battle the whole time and I basically got very lucky with save rolls, and he didn't even advance his army until turn 4. I know he wont make that mistake again so im at a loss as to how im going to deal with it next game lol.

Addressing the cost of a warrior vs a space marine. You state at the cost of I2 but forget -1 to our save. Warriors have a 4+ save.

With RP, this only matter agaisnt AP4, the rarest of the game.

If AP4 had been rare, Stormtroopers would have been useful.

Armor saves in general are not really awesome, see the amount of threads regarding terminators. And the Scion dex have a lot more problems than just not being able to survive being shot at.

I can think of 5 weapons, heavy flamer, heavy bolters, chainaxes, autocannons (and variants) and that Leman Russ that ignores cover.

As with all things the better you learn your army the better you are at addressing other armies unique fighting styles.

Also, how often does I2 actually come into play? It's all well and good being slower in combat, but how often are you in melee with them? Especially when their (and the system's) shooting game is so strong.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If AP4 had been rare, Stormtroopers would have been useful.

AP4 is rare. AP3 and below is common, however.

This means that units which pay a premium to get their save from a 4+ to a 3+ in order to be more survivable against big guns are actually making a bad investment of those points, as they're now more expensive but still just as vulnerable to the AP3 and below weapons which are more common in the game compared to AP4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darthdaddy wrote:
My whole point is Necron players didn't ask for these changes. People complaining about Necrons did. I find the irony delicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mss and fnp rules may have been created at the same time, however the new rp/fnp rule was created at the same time we lost mss in its old form.

Correlation =/= causation.

Just because RP got better when MSS disappeared does not mean that RP got better because MSS was taken away.

If it were then that would be one of the most idiotic cases of game design I have ever heard.

"Well we're removing wargear options from these few units."
"Well we'd better buff the entire army to make up for that!"

People complaining about Necrons didn't ask for these changes. They wanted MSS to be balanced, not necessarily removed. They didn't ask for RP to be buffed, army wide.

3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

Yes, on one AP value out of 6, omg, so good

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

And against AP3 or better weapons, which are more common?

And how about AP5+?

And AP 5, 6 and no AP

Let me hear your theory. All I heard complained about Necrons was nerfed 100% in the new Codex. I agree with Tesla snap shots being nerfed and point costs for night scythes being increased those changes were expected. They changed the whole army dynamic. I ask you to use reason when you look at this. The only and I mean only thing that balanced cc was mss, remove it and the army falls apart. What is your solution to this given nerfing mss is going to happen?

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

check your math lol. 4+ and 4+++ is a 75% chance

WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Necrons are a mid range army 24" is the most common range of our weapons, and in order to get rappid fire we need to be within 12" of our target. So I2 comes in play a lot since we want to rapid fire our weapons. Also with drop pod armies becoming more popular.

 darthdaddy wrote:
Necrons are a mid range army 24" is the most common range of our weapons, and in order to get rappid fire we need to be within 12" of our target. So I2 comes in play a lot since we want to rapid fire our weapons. Also with drop pod armies becoming more popular.

Necrons are stupid good. Stop trying to say they aren't. Most armies can't win melee combat against them.

 darthdaddy wrote:
Let me hear your theory. All I heard complained about Necrons was nerfed 100% in the new Codex. I agree with Tesla snap shots being nerfed and point costs for night scythes being increased those changes were expected. They changed the whole army dynamic. I ask you to use reason when you look at this. The only and I mean only thing that balanced cc was mss, remove it and the army falls apart. What is your solution to this given nerfing mss is going to happen?

Oh please, Necrons aren't exactly sitting ducks in combat! Wraiths are one of the best tarpit/bully units in the game, especially when taken in the formation that hands out reanimation protocals. Flayed Ones have a whole host of attacks and shred! A horde of 20 Flayed Ones will slaughter a horde of 40 Ork Boys on the charge, so you can easily use them as deterrents. Praetorians can make a cheap and ridiculously durable (if slow) unit by adding a Cryptek and taking shields. Even a basic Necron Warrior unit isn't exactly terrible given how hard it is to gain combat rez off of them. Any unit without an AP (Assault Marines, Beast Pack, Ork Boyz) are unlikely to cause many wounds at all though your save, and then you just need to pass a Ld 8/9 test to stay locked in combat. Then all charge bonuses are gone and it will turn into a slap fight.

If a capable (usually elite, usually only elites have <AP4 weaponry) melee unit makes it to melee without being tarpitted by the many durable units you have to get at the fragile warriors, he deserves it!

>

Thank you for correcting my math. I averaged the two rolls. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not complaining about my army. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also not complaining about yours. Lol

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Angry, mate?

I love how you say Necrons are better than marines and still cost less and then say marines are under costed... I forgot the part where your dudes are better than marines and therefore extremely undercosted.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Angry, mate?

I love how you say Necrons are better than marines and still cost less and then say marines are under costed... I forgot the part where your dudes are better than marines and therefore extremely undercosted.

I don't play no more, just collect. I just find it funny the people who are crying a lot of them are the ones who have the "easy button" complaining.

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

When a marine costs as much as Stealer or when a marine cost 1 point more than a Chaos Space Marine how can anyone say another unit is under priced. Especially when a Space Marine has AISKNF for what free or one point? Really?

Davor wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

When a marine costs as much as Stealer or when a marine cost 1 point more than a Chaos Space Marine how can anyone say another unit is under priced. Especially when a Space Marine has AISKNF for what free or one point? Really?

No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

There is a lot of crap in the pits of 40K uselessness.

I'd actually say regular Sisters are better than Tactical Marines since they can carry two Special Weapons. That said, anything else is fair game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd actually say regular Sisters are better than Tactical Marines since they can carry two Special Weapons. That said, anything else is fair game.

When those special weapons are either a flamer or a meltagun, Marines are better

 niv-mizzet wrote:
No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

True, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you shouldn't be complaining then. That is just hypocritical. Should people stop playing Necrons then? That is how a lot of people talk that it's the players fault for fielding them. If that is true then these people shouldn't be fielding their Space Marines either.

@tactical spam
Actually I agree with him. I'd rather have sisters as my troop tax than tacticals. Two specials on a minimum squad means more focus, and lower cost means more army elsewhere. If you put them in allied pods with a combi sister superior, you can have a cheaper version of BA meltacide pods with the same output, and those are actually good enough to be a thing. Not superamazingawesomeestforever, but at least good enough to win me a pro painted knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

True, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you shouldn't be complaining then. That is just hypocritical. Should people stop playing Necrons then? That is how a lot of people talk that it's the players fault for fielding them. If that is true then these people shouldn't be fielding their Space Marines either.

What? No? Maybe you missed this?

myself from 2 pages back wrote:and honestly the necron players shouldn't have to hold back. It isn't their fault the Decurion is broken. It isn't the other factions' faults that some of them get rolled without a dice-related miracle. It's the game designer's fault for sucking at their job and lowering the quality of the game at large.

The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

In a vacuum, Tacticals are still good. In practice, they are not as good

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

Did you do that math in your head?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

For BA, having a chaos marine would be better because of the option for extra CC weapon. ATSKNF isn't even a thing anymore. My squads die to a man in shooting.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

People can play whatever they want. Its also everyone else's choice to not play against someone. I refuse to play low point games against an ImpGuard player who knew it was a warband/big killteam game, and took just hellhounds. It's about making the game fun for both sides. Do you feel like someone elses fun is not your responsibility? Welcome to being TFG, because this is a community game and you'll soon find the ONLY person who will play you is other top tier armies and, depending on your attitude, a lot of them will leave anyways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

I'm favoring Rhinos over drop pods at this point anyway. Drop pods really lack versatility and are actually a liability in maelstrom, imo.

autumnlotus wrote:
People can play whatever they want. Its also everyone else's choice to not play against someone. I refuse to play low point games against an ImpGuard player who knew it was a warband/big killteam game, and took just hellhounds. It's about making the game fun for both sides. Do you feel like someone elses fun is not your responsibility? Welcome to being TFG, because this is a community game and you'll soon find the ONLY person who will play you is other top tier armies and, depending on your attitude, a lot of them will leave anyways.

/thread

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

I'm favoring Rhinos over drop pods at this point anyway. Drop pods really lack versatility and are actually a liability in maelstrom, imo.

I always want Plague Marines in the opponent's side immediately to get that delicious Plasma off. I don't trust a Rhino to live to T4 at this point.

Four plasma shots? Meh. The Rhino only has to get to one objective, maybe two, and then it is almost always a wall for you.

Is it weird that I like big squads of plague marines in rhinos rather then MSU? It seems like a good investment, especially against Necrons where they chill out on the roofs while my Plaguebearers summon and summon to cover the objectives

Martel732 wrote:
Four plasma shots? Meh. The Rhino only has to get to one objective, maybe two, and then it is almost always a wall for you.

It's 2 Pgs for 5 guys, plus I believe a possible combi, as compared to 10 guys. It's much more effective firepower for the points.
If marines could take special weapons like plague marines could, they'd be one of the best infantry choices in the game. They could saturate the board in PGs for anti-Mc/light tank armor and launchers for anti-horde, with grav to go after the absurdly tough choices.

To the OP, people don't really have a reason to complain. Hell, the people at my local store that still play, like my one friend that played with me the other night, have outright hated Necrons the first few times I used the new codex. Now he's like "Meh, whatever".

Yeah, if you're playing Wraiths, Destroyers, Orikanstar, ext, Necrons are decently competitive. But if you're not using those, everything else is just good. Very tough, sure, but not over the top in my opinion.

I've also noticed that people seem to have complained so much about RP, but that's the only special rule we have. If we can't have it, then Marines can't have ATSKNF, Eldar can't have Battle Focus, Tau can't have Supporting Fire, ext. Oh, you're not okay with that exchange? Then shut yo mouf, fool.

P.S. Quite a few people were discussing before the codex came out about what the changes should be, and agreed that simplifying RP into a FNP like save would be easier and still make sense. Well, it happened. Now those same people complain.

You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th. The gulf between RP and ATSKNF is enormous.

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

It does. If they get caught, they just become Fearless and stay in combat.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

It does. If they get caught, they just become Fearless and stay in combat.

'And They Shall Know No Fairness' also gives outright immunity to the 'Fear' usr as well, which is a huge deal for an army like Daemons as army-wide Fear is one of our big things.



As for everyone else getting their own unique special rules... Chaos Marines don't, unless you count community-wide "Veternas of the Long Wait" on a new and playable codex as being worthwhile.

I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

I only have an issue with it when it's granted the bonus due to the formation. at a 5 up its ok, but 4 plus army wide and the ability to give it to wraiths in certain conditions. As for ATSNKF, it's a good rule but most of the bonuses are related to CC, where marines don't want to be in generally and which is at an all time low game wise.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

*shrugs* Any army with access to Invisibility...

ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

Akiasura wrote:
ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

I also don't play anywhere where they adopt ITC rules.

And the Canoptek Harvest debate nerfs what they could potentially be. But otherwise, no. Mainly because Wraiths aren't as good as people say.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

*shrugs* Any army with access to Invisibility...

I'm not saying other armies don't have access to buffs such as invisibility, but most of these can be countered in some way. These armies are equally annoying to go up against.
However, the question was why people dislike the reanimation protocol and I dislike it because of how durable it can make the Necrons in addition to some other buffs from the codex (such as Decurion and resurrection orb).

Also, invisibility is not as powerful as having a 3+ invulnerable save and a 4+ re-rollable reanimation save (if an orb is used).

Even in a non ITC invisibility is not a guarantee outside of chaos armies from Belakor. You have to roll for it and always take the chance of not getting it. Necrons bonuses and strengths are all guarantees.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

I also don't play anywhere where they adopt ITC rules.

This will obviously color perception quite a bit, which is why I thought to mention it. If you adopt ITC rules, invisibility is certainly strong, but not the overpowered broken spell it is in the core game. Some of the other psyker powers become nearly as good.
Same thing with many of the deathstar builds. Wraiths go from being weaker to all of the other deathstars by a huge margin to about average to above average for deathstars.

 krodarklorr wrote:

And the Canoptek Harvest debate nerfs what they could potentially be. But otherwise, no. Mainly because Wraiths aren't as good as people say.

I'm unaware of any debate involving nerfs. What nerfs are being bandied about?
In ITC rules, I find wraiths to be one of the strongest units in the game. Without access to invis or 2++ re-rollables, wraiths suddenly seem like an above average deathstar you can spam.
Without ITC rules, sure. Wraiths are probably average at best for death stars, though still very hard to dislodge for any unit that isn't spamming grav, scat lasers, GMC, or is a deathstar themselves.

Most chapter tactics are poor. BA are especially poor. And once again, I'm not losing assaults. Because assaults aren't happening. My opponents' shooting phases prevent it.

 corrm wrote:

Also, invisibility is not as powerful as having a 3+ invulnerable save and a 4+ re-rollable reanimation save (if an orb is used).

I assume you're talking about the Wraiths. Kill the Spyder first. Problem solved. Then they become T5 with a 3+ invuln. Dedicate some firepower and it gets rid of their effectiveness.

Also, if they have an Orb attached to the unit, then you're playing a cheesemonger anyway, because that's extremely wonky in my eyes. Either way, get rid of the Spyder and it no longer matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

I'm unaware of any debate involving nerfs. What nerfs are being bandied about?
In ITC rules, I find wraiths to be one of the strongest units in the game. Without access to invis or 2++ re-rollables, wraiths suddenly seem like an above average deathstar you can spam.
Without ITC rules, sure. Wraiths are probably average at best for death stars, though still very hard to dislodge for any unit that isn't spamming grav, scat lasers, GMC, or is a deathstar themselves.

Well, I don't know about the ITC rules in particular, but I can't always rely on everyone I play against to want to learn them and play with them. Plus, I personally, don't like to use anything unofficial. (Call me weird, it's just a thing I've always had.)

So, I can't say about how balanced it is. However, the nerf for Wraiths was mainly for the formation in general, which there was a whole debate when the codex came out about if you have remain within 12" for the RP buff, and whether or not you could take multiple spyders.

I personally think it doesn't have much to do with them being "unbeatable", but rather just unfun to play against as others have said. I regularly table Necron Decurion lists (but I was playing Eldar, so....).

I even tried out a Decurion with a Destroyer Cult and TWO Canoptek Harvests and pretty much got tabled in my area. And I should preface that I am at least a mid-tier player, having won a couple 1850pt tournies over the past few years. Necrons just don't fit my play style.

In competitive terms, I do not think Necrons are that great. Top tier, maybe, but very bottom of that tier. However, the Decurion is AWFUL to play against in friendly games. My 2 main armies have been Eldar & Daemons for years (since before either was considered "good"). If I was playing my Daemons and had to choose to fight against Eldar or a Necron Decurion, I'd choose Eldar. Win or lose it would be a more fun game.

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

The mission was kill points, so I did have to focus on trying to kill as many of his units as possible. My army was pretty much wiped out and I had killed very few of my opponents units. If you are interested in reading about it, the battle report is here: http://standwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/rapid-fire-2015-game-4-white-scars-vs.html

Seventh versus sixth edition Necrons... Their shooting is nowhere near as good. Tesla used to be the very best for that sweet spot that can handle both infantry and most armor. I don't think they are as good in close combat either. They are okay but they aren't really winning any big events. To me they are an easy army to play that does okay if that's what you want.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They are okay but they aren't really winning any big events.

WHAT are you talking about...

Seriously what IS he talking about? Also are you SERIOUSLY complaining about Tesla?

IT LITERALLY HASN'T CHANGED.

the only difference is that there is no Overwatch or Snapfire abuse of it's mechanic. How does that affect vehicles?

Snap fire was one of the things that made it so awesome. I remember shooting down two zooming Stormravens with one Annibarge.

It's been said before and it rings very true to me, Decurion Necron are just plain not fun to face. I understand survivability is supposed to be your "thing" but it does not translate well into game terms as something fun to face. And don't think RP is your only thing, gauss is a nice cherry on top. If I ever got a chance to face non-Decurion necron I think I'd have a lot more fun, 6 rounds of a game to take out maybe 10 models is depressing, hide and seek for objectives isn't exciting and outright sucks if the necron player gets to the objectives and just bubblewraps them.

My problem isn't RP in it's current iteration, it's Decurion 4+++. If Decurion had a different bonus, such as "RP can't be modified to be worse regardless of ID" then I think it'd be better. Crypteks make it 4+++ don't they? then in Decurion you'd get 4+++ all the time regardless of ID bet atleast you had to pay for a cryptek, rez orbs might see use aswell. I've never faced a 7th edition necron with rez orb cause frankly they never feel they need it.

Don't get me wrong, Decurion is by far not the only broken thing in the game, invisibility is balls to face and Eldar have a couple broken/undercosted units. I haven't faced the new marines yet but I hear people complain about their free transports. Across the whole game there are many things that need to be re-balanced, Decurion RP isn't the only one but I feel it is one of the things that are too powerful right now.

I don't play tournaments btw so I can't speak to that very much but if Decurion RP is the only thing making Necron competitive then other OP things need to be brought down and maybe a few buffs to other areas of the Necron army would suffice. Currently a non-optimized casual Decurion list is still wildly too survivable for any other casual lists to take on in my opinion.

Just my two cents, I want necron players to still be competitive and like their army but I also want everyone else to be able to enjoy fighting them aswell.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
It's been said before and it rings very true to me, Decurion Necron are just plain not fun to face. I understand survivability is supposed to be your "thing" but it does not translate well into game terms as something fun to face. And don't think RP is your only thing, gauss is a nice cherry on top. If I ever got a chance to face non-Decurion necron I think I'd have a lot more fun, 6 rounds of a game to take out maybe 10 models is depressing, hide and seek for objectives isn't exciting and outright sucks if the necron player gets to the objectives and just bubblewraps them.

My problem isn't RP in it's current iteration, it's Decurion 4+++. If Decurion had a different bonus, such as "RP can't be modified to be worse regardless of ID" then I think it'd be better. Crypteks make it 4+++ don't they? then in Decurion you'd get 4+++ all the time regardless of ID bet atleast you had to pay for a cryptek, rez orbs might see use aswell. I've never faced a 7th edition necron with rez orb cause frankly they never feel they need it.

Don't get me wrong, Decurion is by far not the only broken thing in the game, invisibility is balls to face and Eldar have a couple broken/undercosted units. I haven't faced the new marines yet but I hear people complain about their free transports. Across the whole game there are many things that need to be re-balanced, Decurion RP isn't the only one but I feel it is one of the things that are too powerful right now.

I don't play tournaments btw so I can't speak to that very much but if Decurion RP is the only thing making Necron competitive then other OP things need to be brought down and maybe a few buffs to other areas of the Necron army would suffice. Currently a non-optimized casual Decurion list is still wildly too survivable for any other casual lists to take on in my opinion.

Just my two cents, I want necron players to still be competitive and like their army but I also want everyone else to be able to enjoy fighting them aswell.

From what I've heard, competitive Necron lists are actually running 1-2 CADs with some formations thrown in. They hardly ever use Decurion in competitive settings, so take that as you will.

Because those bastards are virtually impossible to kill. Not too good at board control however. For this reason I usually beat them despite having probably only killed one or two complete units. Also; sweeping advance kills them. Thunderwolves FTW!

interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

From what I've heard, a lot of lists are just basic CADs with Tomb Blades for grabbing objectives (in maelstrom type games), minimum warriors in Ghost Arks, Zandrakh/Obyron/Cryptek as the HQ, and lychguard if they want to run Orikanstar. Then, they throw in a Canoptek Harvest or two.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

Eldar have WK and then D-scythes. D-scythes kill Necrons real good.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

Eldar have WK and then D-scythes. D-scythes kill Necrons real good.

D-Scythes kill EVERYTHING well.

Ah I see the CAD strategy then, I find it funny that they don't run Decurion cause if I'm not mistaken the only thing they need is an Overlord to be reclamation legion cored right? Unless they go CAD so they can take MSU of Tomb blades which makes sense. Ghost Arks are amazing IMO and with one you can definitely get away without the 4+++ on warriors. And canoptek harvest... yeah that's a no-brainer IMO, every time I've fought it I've never been able to deal with it properly. I know many people just say "pop the spyder" but that isn't so simple if your opponent is a good player and can use LoS terrain.

Martel, yup D-scythes are good, as well as the WK. I'm sure one could go through a lot of codexes and pick out what units are good against necrons but sadly not every codex has solid answers and this won't always help you if you don't know you'll be fighting necrons. In our group we almost never know who our opponent will be and what they will bring (many of us have multiple armies) and so it makes it very difficult to make sure you have the right units for a necron matchup. Having said that I know that WK and D-scythes are pretty-much elder no-brainers, I don't have wraithguard though and I seldom bring out my WK cause most of my opponents are very casual players and I feel a WK may be too much for most of their lists. If I knew I was fighting necron in advance I'd have no qualms taking my WK out though, unfortunately this is almost never the case. It's not a lack of good answers in the eldar codex that's the problem, it's trying to make a TAC list for whoever my opponent will be that night (thinking casual games cause that's what we play here) and then getting pitted against necron where my TAC list doesn't stand a chance. Arguably Eldar is also a very top tier codex atm so finding answers to Necron in there isn't that hard. Now my CSM army on the other hand... yeah no matter what I've tried with that I can't even come close to a draw. I know triple heldrake is still supposedly our best answer but I don't have 270$ (Canadian) to drop on buying three just so I can attempt to be competitive against necron. I don't want to have to buy specific units/list tailor to put up a fight against necron.

Since the written word is very hard to infer intonation I would like to also say that I in no way mean to sound overly angry about the things I'm saying. Imagine it being read by Morgan Freeman in his calm wise-man voice. Yeah, that's about right lol

Yeah, except WK and D-scythes go in an Eldar TAC list. As you pointed out.

In a crazy twist, I've actually driven Necron players nuts with the archangel sanguine wing. It's not a threat to the shooty power lists, but it's quite good vs Necrons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Ah I see the CAD strategy then, I find it funny that they don't run Decurion cause if I'm not mistaken the only thing they need is an Overlord to be reclamation legion cored right? Unless they go CAD so they can take MSU of Tomb blades which makes sense. Ghost Arks are amazing IMO and with one you can definitely get away without the 4+++ on warriors. And canoptek harvest... yeah that's a no-brainer IMO, every time I've fought it I've never been able to deal with it properly. I know many people just say "pop the spyder" but that isn't so simple if your opponent is a good player and can use LoS terrain.

You need a minimum of 2 Warrior squads and a minimum unit or Immortals, which people don't like taking. And you can have up to 3 units of Tomb Blades in a Decurion, so yeah.

Plus, people usually want a Cryptek, but don't feel like spending the points on a full Royal Court.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

I play melee heavy so I guess I'm lucky to be good(ish) at dealing with Necrons. I do however find Eldar very hard to deal with (never beaten them ever).

As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

Naaris wrote:
As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

But aren't basically all Necron units LD10? So you have to lose 4 models to get to the point where you need to roll below the average 2D6 result.

Hi. I'm a Tyranid Player. If I use anything other than flyrants, I'm the worst army in the game.
Hilariously enough, I have the most AP4 range firepower for some dumb reason. Pyrovores (lol), [heavy] Venom cannons, biovores, spore mines, Crone's Cannon, Miasma Cannon, One of our 'relics', Rupture cannon, acid spray, Impaler cannon, stinger salvo, and the thresher tail. Yeah... 12 ranged and a weird CCW. Did I mention there is a single 2+ save in the army?? GW you so cray cray.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Hi. I'm a Tyranid Player. If I use anything other than flyrants, I'm the worst army in the game.
Hilariously enough, I have the most AP4 range firepower for some dumb reason. Pyrovores (lol), [heavy] Venom cannons, biovores, spore mines, Crone's Cannon, Miasma Cannon, One of our 'relics', Rupture cannon, acid spray, Impaler cannon, stinger salvo, and the thresher tail. Yeah... 12 ranged and a weird CCW. Did I mention there is a single 2+ save in the army?? GW you so cray cray.

You can stomp BA with non flyrant-lists. MCs ignore all my defenses.

 corrm wrote:

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

The mission was kill points, so I did have to focus on trying to kill as many of his units as possible. My army was pretty much wiped out and I had killed very few of my opponents units. If you are interested in reading about it, the battle report is here: http://standwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/rapid-fire-2015-game-4-white-scars-vs.html

Kill Point missions against Necrons are often a lost cause. I seized the initiative against my friend and dropped two battle cannons, four blastmasters, and some other heavy weapons into his line. I think I killed one scarab base.

Naaris wrote:
As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

I mean...you have to lose the combat, and then fail a LD test, and they're all LD 10. It's not as likely as you'd think.

Martel732 wrote:

You can stomp BA with non flyrant-lists. MCs ignore all my defenses.

Grav? Check. Divination? Check. Better-than-I-2 Melee? Check. The cheapest MC will get rolled by furiosos or DC [dreads]. Death Company with a few fists/hammers hidden in there will kill a unit of fexes no problem. Nids have almost no defense against storm ravens. Jeez, krak missile devastators with an auspex are good enough. Heck, Dante will solo -any- nid MC, dropping it before it can swing, same with mephiston. Unless you're throwing vanilla fist/melta dreads solo against 3-strong fex broods, there is no reason BA should ever lose to nids with less than 3 flyrants. Heck, two squads of grav bikes will take out any MC in shooting almost guaranteed. Crazy mode? TH/SS terminators hare a HARD counter to every single tyranid MC. Ever since GW nerf-hammered the swarmlord into the ground, I just try to tarpit them with gants.

Also, seriously Martel, we all know GW gave BA a short stick. However, just because they didnt get a vaulting pole (Tau, Eldar) doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM). At this point, I want to build out a full-on jump infantry BA army and learn to stomp face with it. Almost ever post of yours I see comes out as a "I'm derailing another thread with my BA whines, which while semi-justfied, I take out to the most extreme of hyperbole. A single grot killed my 9001 point BA army with a single shot; nerf Orks please".

On Topic Mode Engaged
At this point OP, it's all about people who like having their cake, eating it, then stealing their opponent's as well. All of the books that came out after Crons have been cringeworthy in their obvious WAAC-cheesemonger-powerbuilds. Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, Dark Angels are all fan-freaking-tastic armies. They have great games against eachother from what I've seen. However, when anyone who isn't in the mile high club tries to get a first-class ticket, they get laughed off the plane. You can try to math-hammer who is better or what, but when it comes right down to it, GW's design team had a MAJOR shift in it's rules writing, and those who came before are being punished for it. Will something be done to bring the dregs a little closer? Hopefully. Will people still refuse to play against the Swarmlord because of PTSD from the glory days of Biomancy-Nids early 6th? Yes.

" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

On topic: I still say RP is stupid OP. At the very least, ID should take it away completely.

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

As I discovered in that one poll thread, I'm probably one of the few people on here with one list. That explains a lot, I think. If I were bad WITH them, my record in mirror matches wouldn't be almost flawless. Not to mention army swaps.

And Mephiston is average at best now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

As I discovered in that one poll thread, I'm probably one of the few people on here with one list. That explains a lot, I think. If I were bad WITH them, my record in mirror matches wouldn't be almost flawless. Not to mention army swaps.

And Mephiston is average at best now.

Maybe you made a bad list so you can complain how OP every other army is.

@Tactical_Spam - that's unfair, as Martel plays Blood Angels, and there's no such thing as competitive, straight Blood Angels list

There are playable lists, less playable lists, and suicide lists, all of which will have reasonable win ratios against bad players or good players with toned down lists; but all of which will have terrible win rates against decent players with tournament-winning lists. They're all pretty unforgiving, and obviously inferior to their vanilla or dark angels counterparts.

And BA aren't the only faction in the penalty box....

I still love mine. If I want a little more power level, I just play them as vanilla (Blood Templars! Crimson Angels!) and pull out grav cents instead of cool-looking winged elites and marginal heroes. *shrug*. And if I want to tone it down, all I have to do is drag out more terminators, of which I have no short supply of

Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

That doesn't sound competitive at all. I'm pretty sure even play Iron Hands I could take that down in a single turn of shooting.

back on the topic. Necrons RP, especially in the decurion is completely un-fun to play against. There is no way to actually negate the protocols like you can with FNP. Quite frankly, Necrons are far more durable than marines including Iron Hands. Gauss is also disgustingly good. At least it has been when used against me. Who needs special weapons when your stock weapon is better than the special weapons of a lot of armies.

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

Astorath is terrible. Moving on...

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

That list would have so few bodies in it... I mean yes you get a bit more durability but the opponents shooting also becomes more focused. It also ignores the biggest issue for assault; getting there.

Astorath is mainly there for the re-rolls (and fluff). In 1850 you could have 40 odd DC (counting the scouts, ravens and HQ). Stormravens and jump packs provide mobility. A smart player jumps from terrain to terrain. One should force their opponent into moving units into chargeable positions in order to get some shooting in (so only a couple of their units can shoot and therefore not able to kill enough DC.) Why do you guys always assume an open field?

Ps: I regularly enter tournaments with less than 50 models and always do fairly well. I came third out of 23 players in last years biggest tournament.

Yea I'm used to having less than 30 models on the table as well.... and I do play at my local store with a large amount of terrain. But you won't be getting a better cover save than armor save the majority of the time so as always its only worth it for those AP2 weapons.

I could beat that list with an Imperial Guard army. The only real way to stand a chance would be to deepstrike some of the DC while the scouts hug some LoS blocking terrain. But then the DC would be eating Wyvern pieplates like no tomorrow.

Martel can tell you better why that is a bad competitive list.

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

On topic: I still say RP is stupid OP. At the very least, ID should take it away completely.

Overcosted power Armoured losers? Double check, we can be swept, we don't automatically rally, we're not immune to fear, we don't get special rules and we have minimal weapons options.
No good formations? Check
No good IC's? Nah, we got a couple.
No grav Cannons? Double check, we don't have any grav at all!
Terrible chapter tactics? Double check, we don't get chapter tactics at all.
Missing half the equipment of vanilla Marines? Mate, we're missing half the equipment of BA!

Welcome to chaos. Or sisters.

While your complaints about BA are valid, saying that they're worse than csm is not. I'd liken it to a guy on crutches with a broken leg complaining that a paraplegic at least gets to sit down all day and gets all the best parking spots.

Deep strike? Hell no. I'm jumping up the table and assaulting on turn two. You'd better kill my whole army turn one because turn two it's over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess my point is any army can be competitive, they just have less army building options. If played some pretty mean CSM lists. Spawn with mark of Nurgle and endurance/invisibility. Ouch!

How are jump troops assaulting turn two? Bikes can but I'm not seeing how jump infantry can mange it unless the enemy moves towards you.

T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

BAs have a lot of fun tricks. Against my lists, the BAs I've played have had a fair chance, and usually had fun (I'm a TFG at heart, and fight it, but sometimes I'm not carful enough). I've certainly lost to BAs and CSM.

When I face BAs I know they're not going to have the ugliest stuff SM can bring to bear, but in less competitive metas can do fine. They have lots of options that can do stuff.

For instance, you always bitch about DAs. Do you know what a podded Tac squad with a HF would do to them?

Or the +1 I formation, if Tacs charge Banshees, who would lose the shooting game anyways?

Or lots of MEQs for 14ppm that can outshoot the choppy and outchop the shooty?

Not competitive, sure. But they can be fun and goodish in many metas.

CSM are in a similar boat. They have a few nasty things (OMFG helldrale when I started. I played SM, and even tailoring I couldn't kill that thing.). But asside from a few shenanigans (Be'lakor, DP that magically always rolls +1T/-1Save, IA, Endurance), they are just BA -1. Sure, they're also 1ppm cheaper. But they lose a lot for that 1pt.

 Kavish wrote:
Deep strike? Hell no. I'm jumping up the table and assaulting on turn two. You'd better kill my whole army turn one because turn two it's over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess my point is any army can be competitive, they just have less army building options. If played some pretty mean CSM lists. Spawn with mark of Nurgle and endurance/invisibility. Ouch!

If BA really could do that without catching 80 scatterlaser shots and then being spoiling assaulted by WK, that would be nice. As for your ig example, a few sacrificial squads make it so the game certainly is NOT over. In fact you should know that the turn after a successful assault is actually very dangerous.

I rank csm over ba because of more fw options and more opportunity to take units that have better than a marine statline. Everything that makes vanilla marines better than ba are units other than meq or formations that break rules. BA are stuck with marine stat lines everywhere and mcs whatsoever. As the other thread about mutilators unfolds, im finding myself jealous of damn mutilators just because they can kinda take a hit.

"But they lose a lot for that 1pt."

Really? ATSKNF stopped being a thing when Taudar dropped in 6th. The new plan A is to kill entire units to the man in the shooting phase. This has only gotten worse in 7th. In fact, because of the shooting meta, I'd almost rather my units be able to be swept so I can shoot the enemy assault unit on my turn. IG and Tau and such have done it to me enough times.

" but in less competitive metas can do fine."

Great. So BA can beat people not trying to win. Got it.

"Do you know what a podded Tac squad with a HF would do to them? "

Basically nothing, because you only clear 22% of your wounds. So if you cover 5, you kill one. And then you die. Such an awesome tradeoff!

"Or lots of MEQs for 14ppm that can outshoot the choppy and outchop the shooty? "

Except this never works in practice. They just die.

Normal rp for warriors 4+,5+++ that's a 66.5% chance to save the wound while a sm 3+ save is a 66% chance to save the wound. What bothers you is when it's a 4+++ rp or 75% chance to save the wound granted by crypteks at 65pts per model one unit only or army wide decurion which limits troop choices to select choices from fast attack and elite slots. I'm guessing your real issue is with the Decurion formation. Just ask your Necron player if they will play a non Decurion list. You can still play the old Necrons in Imperial armour 12, granted there are a few buffed hq choices and such but they fall down, and I still enjoy playing my old rules. Problem solved


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the right to say NO to Lords of War, Forge world models and Deathstar lists and yes even Decurion.

While this is an off topic in the discussion, I must say I am agree with Martel more or less on this.

I don't fear them or even worry about them with any of my armies when BA are my enemies. Often it is just a turkey shoot.
I find myself thinking how much shooting will it take to table this person.

Might not be fair to think that way, but it is just how I feel. To me, chaos anything poses more of a threat to me I think. My IH are pretty bad when compared to the rest of the other marines with the exception of BA. The only reason IH right now are any good is their access to codex space marine armory.

Conversely, Necrons don't have to hardly do anything to be annoying and a threat. Yes, in a competitive environment necrons have to put thought into what they take and need tactics but they still need less than several other armies. It is for that reason I rank them just behind eldar and tau and ahead of space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darthdaddy wrote:
Normal rp for warriors 4+,5+++ that's a 66.5% chance to save the wound while a sm 3+ save is a 66% chance to save the wound. What bothers you is when it's a 4+++ rp or 75% chance to save the wound granted by crypteks at 65pts per model one unit only or army wide decurion which limits troop choices to select choices from fast attack and elite slots. I'm guessing your real issue is with the Decurion formation. Just ask your Necron player if they will play a non Decurion list. You can still play the old Necrons in Imperial armour 12, granted there are a few buffed hq choices and such but they fall down, and I still enjoy playing my old rules. Problem solved


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the right to say NO to Lords of War, Forge world models and Deathstar lists and yes even Decurion.

You can't say no in a tournament if the tourney allows it. Sure you can not play in the tournament, but how is that fun?

My issue for necrons without the decurion is this: they are as durable as SM, have a similar statline, similar pricepoint, and better weapons. Necrons for the most part with their basic troops don't need to take any upgrades. Their basic wargear gets the job done keeping them cheap. SM on the other hand pretty much HAVE to take upgrades to be effective at killing anything. This makes SM more expensive and once the special weapons are removed the unit becomes pretty worthless.

 Kavish wrote:
T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

On a table that is 72" long. Still not enough to charge turn 2 unless your opponent lets you.

Akiasura wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

On a table that is 72" long. Still not enough to charge turn 2 unless your opponent lets you.

Yes, because you're going to start them right at your table edge...

Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Glad to see another topic is derailed by Blood Angels

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

on average it would be 12" move, 3" run (unless DC have a rule that means they always run 6"?) then 12" move and 7" charge. So you have a 34" threat range, over two turns.

And moving 12" in the movement phase means you don't get HoW or re-roll charge distance in the assault phase.

Add in casualties being removed from the front and you'll probably lose between 1" and 2", depending on how spread out you are to avoid blasts, from the first turn of shooting, too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Let's be real, that's a 42"+6/7 threat range. No one banks on a 12.
So that's about 48 to 49. Still leaves them quite a bit of space on a 6' board. If you are playing on a 4' board, which seems small, they can still evade you.
So no, don't have to play that far back at all.

I tried to move things along.

For BA: no one cares about jump losers. They get shot and killed by real lists. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few squads to do this. Oh well.

For Necrons: the Decurion is super duper frustrating. That's why everyone hates it. Having your list's schtick be "we never die and you have to completely rely on obj sec to win some esoteric victory" is going to upset a lot of people.

Akiasura wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Let's be real, that's a 42"+6/7 threat range. No one banks on a 12.
So that's about 48 to 49. Still leaves them quite a bit of space on a 6' board. If you are playing on a 4' board, which seems small, they can still evade you.
So no, don't have to play that far back at all.

And if they're not hugging terrain, they're gonna have a bunch of AP 2/3 coming their way, making their Turn 2 charge irrelevant when they're all dead.

Martel732 wrote:
I tried to move things along.

For BA: no one cares about jump losers. They get shot and killed by real lists. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few squads to do this. Oh well.

For Necrons: the Decurion is super duper frustrating. That's why everyone hates it. Having your list's schtick be "we never die and you have to completely rely on obj sec to win some esoteric victory" is going to upset a lot of people.

Eh. I'd rather have that chance than have all of my super expensive stuff be shot to bits by D-weapons or stomped out of existence with no way to counter it. Or be shot at with Alpha strike Grav...that you can't do anything about.

Necrons just take some more strategy to actually beat. Whereas the other heavy hitters in the game just, well...hit you hard. And of course you can't do anything about it.

Assuming there is terrain to hug that suits their pathing needs.

22% kill rate from a HF vs a DA?
T3 4+ means:
(1)(5/6)(1), or 80+% chance.
Cover 5 and you're killing at least 4.

I don't think anyone is claiming BAs are top tier. The claim that's getting flack is that they are worse off than CSM.

Do CSM feel like any less of a turkey shoot since the Helldrake stealth nerf? If they face 80 SL shots and a WK, aren't they at least as boned?

As for the charge range, it depends what you're up against. Some things can shoot across the board, sure. But most Necron things need to be within 24" of their target. If that is the ASM or DC, and there is no LOS terrain, that could be a problem. If not, then they have to move *up* to get to their target.

In the first case - they want to shoot the ASM/DC - they should only get one or maybe two rounds of shooting (close 15" on average, to 9", they back off 6" max to 15", shoot, then you assault).

In the second case, screening is easy. You should be able to assault on T2 at the latest.

I thought we were talking about Dark Angel Black knights. I haven't seen a dire avenger in a long time. That's how many better options the Eldar have.

" If they face 80 SL shots and a WK, aren't they at least as boned? "

Go read the mutilator thread. They at least have resiliency that BA only dream of.

Rereading it, it seems clear it was dire avengers.
At first pass I also assumed dark Angels, to be fair. I'm the only Eldar player I know that runs dire avengers

Also, you wouldn't let me put a drop pod next to your DA anyway unless you were a bad player.

I might let you if you asked nicely

I think the avatar above that post made me think of Dark Angels. BA drop pods are really not a good idea in general. In my opinion.

Martel732 wrote:
BA drop pods are really not a good idea in general. In my opinion.

Unless, you know, Admech....

Oh so my list I wrote in ten seconds gets beaten by the most op list in all of 40k. Surprise surprise. Funny how I get a second turn charge with my Thunderwolves EVERY SINGLE GAME I PLAY. And I play almost every weekend. Sure they are more durable. But for what they cost you could get 3 times as many DC (counting wargear costs).

Martel, if you play in a Meta where your facing 80 SL shots and a wraithknight on a regular basis I feel bad for you. I would probably quit 40k. I've only ever come across one and I wouldn't play him again. Against normal armies BA are quite good. Dante, sang priests, storm ravens, DC, flamer tacs in drop pods, fast vindicators... All good choices.

Because (all of these are true, personal anecdotes):

2x deff dreads and a morkanaut charge ~12 warriors with a cryptek. Warriors manage to hold my 3 walkers, with a total of 12x str 10, ap2 attacks a round for 7 rounds of combat. One round in particular I got 7 wounds, he made 7 RP rolls.

20 nobz (NOBZ, not boyz) charge 20 warriors and lose combat - granted, they used a Rez orb.

Shrugging off ~30 wounds from combined loota and lobba fire, 12x warrior squad didn't lose enough to make a morale test.

Skullhamma 10" str 9 Ap3 blast over giant blobs of immortals and warriors and killing like 3-5 a shot.

~20 choppa boyz with a nob/PK charge necron lord with 3+ armor, and in 3 rounds of combat, do not inflict a single unsaved wound. The lord fails to wound at all until the 3rd round, in which he kills the nob, boyz fail morale & MR, he runs them down and destroys them all. I think my opponent was feeling bad for me in that game and wanted to give me an easy kill, and it didn't work out that way.

10 nobz + warboss + wierdboy charge 2x cryptek + c'tan shard formation, lose combat, fail morale & MR, sweeping advanced. I will admit that we did it wrong - PKs still instakill crypteks, because they're wounded at T8, but not ID'd at T8. But it was a bit frustrating at the time.

Not all of us have handy access to str D flamers out the ass. I have won some games v. necrons since the new codex, but it's always, ALWAYS, a massive uphill battle.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure I have won any games v. necrons since their codex came out.

 Kavish wrote:
Oh so my list I wrote in ten seconds gets beaten by the most op list in all of 40k. Surprise surprise. Funny how I get a second turn charge with my Thunderwolves EVERY SINGLE GAME I PLAY. And I play almost every weekend. Sure they are more durable. But for what they cost you could get 3 times as many DC (counting wargear costs).

Wolves are a lot more durable than DC, hit a lot harder, and are a bit faster. It's why they are, overall, considered to be better.
Capslock doesn't serve to prove a point. If you can't state how you are clearing 20" of board space that the enemy has outside your threat range with the DC, without them moving close to you or deploying poorly, they are probably deploying poorly or moving towards you. Or you are playing on a small board.
It's simple math. Most people in battle reports will state that Jump infantry get turn 3 charges, Bikes get turn 2, and Beasts get turn 2 or 3 depending on the enemy army and their speed.

 Kavish wrote:

Martel, if you play in a Meta where your facing 80 SL shots and a wraithknight on a regular basis I feel bad for you. I would probably quit 40k. I've only ever come across one and I wouldn't play him again. Against normal armies BA are quite good. Dante, sang priests, storm ravens, DC, flamer tacs in drop pods, fast vindicators... All good choices.

Define normal. 80 SL shots (20 bikes) and a wraithknight seems normal to me.

I would define that kind of list leaning towards hard competitive.

Me and my buddy tend to tailor to each others lists, so when we have a game both of us have fun. There is a list of units and formations we have both agreed we would tell each other if we plan of fielding them, just to keep it balanced. The fact that decurion, harvest, destroyer cult and lychstar are on there by both of our blessings says a lot about the army

 Kavish wrote:
Oh so my list I wrote in ten seconds gets beaten by the most op list in all of 40k. Surprise surprise. Funny how I get a second turn charge with my Thunderwolves EVERY SINGLE GAME I PLAY. And I play almost every weekend. Sure they are more durable. But for what they cost you could get 3 times as many DC (counting wargear costs).

Martel, if you play in a Meta where your facing 80 SL shots and a wraithknight on a regular basis I feel bad for you. I would probably quit 40k. I've only ever come across one and I wouldn't play him again. Against normal armies BA are quite good. Dante, sang priests, storm ravens, DC, flamer tacs in drop pods, fast vindicators... All good choices.

Vindicators? Okay. Those have been bad since they put in hps. In fact, dc are the only unit you listed that I would consider good.

I've got some bad news. Scatbike WK lists ARE normal. Your refusal to play against standard eldar underscores my point about ba pretty well. Oh and one wk and 20 scatterlasers is light for my meta.

One thing I see a fair amount of is "Decurion isn't OP when we have scat bikes and Wk and SM gravspam and etc..." I think it's not fair to everyone who wants to play a non-cheese list that Decurion is counted as balanced but only when put in a vacuum against those things everyone agress is OP anyways. Scatbikes never should have been a thing, WK need a points hike, SM grav spam needs a nerf somehow, the bridge between MC and vehicles needs to be made, especially for walkers, melee/assault rules need a small buff (especially in terms of getting to combat for some armies), CSM desperately need a new codex, tyranids need more viable builds than just flyrants with brainleech, All pre-necron codexes that are considered 7th edition (orks, BA, DE) need to be re-made with the current 7th edition formats, invisibility is stupid as it's written, Decurion needs to be shifted from 4+++ to something not as survivable as it is but still worthwhile and fun to both use and PLAY AGAINST etc... This list can be endless.

The answer is not "well x has this so I should get that" because what about poor y and z who languish with poor weak units and rules? Not everything needs to be made more powerful to compensate for the other popular builds but rather those popular builds should be brought down to be in line with what exists. This is how we have such huge gaps between the "auto-take" units and the "shelved collecting dust" units.

Balancing this whole game has got to be tough, there is a ton of stuff to consider but I don't think this staggered realease system of codexes works, especially the way they historically write them using what seems to be people with wildly different scales of what they feel the power level should be. GW should take a page from video games and find a way to track what units are being played, what units are not, what gear is used, what gear never is added to units, what fromations are popular, which ones never see use. All of this data can then be used to see numbers. These numbers can be used to identify what units/gear/formations are powerful and which could use some love. With that info you can softly nerf the popular stuff while gently increasing the viability of the un-popular stuff. that's what many video game developers do for their online multiplayer games and after a lot of hard work a general average can be achieved. Balance will always be a juggling act but if GW dedicated a team to monitoring it and implementing them via a system similar to the AoS warscrolls then I think 40K could just maybe be that much better of a game.

/end rant

I once had a DA Exarch one-round a Wraith. With a Power Lance/shimmershield. Not on the first round of combat. (Did 2 wounds with his 2 attacks, needing 6s to wound...)

That doesn't mean Wraiths are so terrible that DA Exarchs can take them in CC.

Should all early 7th books (ed drop - pre-Necrons) be brought up to Eldar levels, or should all the post-Necron books be brought down to pre-Necron levels? Certainly debatable, but I prefer the former.

Vindicators are good in vanilla SM armies where squadrons of three automatically form that old Linebreaker Apocalypse formation and put out a S10 AP1 Ignores Cover 10" blast.

heck, sm gravspam isn't even that good against necron decurion. Eldar and tau are just pretty much good against everything though necrons tend to counter tau a bit. Not sure how much that has changed with the new tau stormsurge


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 master of ordinance wrote:
Vindicators are good in vanilla SM armies where squadrons of three automatically form that old Linebreaker Apocalypse formation and put out a S10 AP1 Ignores Cover 10" blast.

I play IH and i wouldn't try this even. For one there are much better things to take in the heavy slot and two it still isn't very durable.

Only use the best units. Who cares about fluff. I love it when everyone takes the same list. Hell. Just pick the best units from Tau, Necrons, and/or Eldar, spam them until your points run out, and enter tournaments with a pillow so you can fall asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you could pick a nice selection of units with a fluffy theme to your army and interesting strategic options. And win hard fought battles.

 Kavish wrote:
Only use the best units. Who cares about fluff. I love it when everyone takes the same list. Hell. Just pick the best units from Tau, Necrons, and/or Eldar, spam them until your points run out, and enter tournaments with a pillow so you can fall asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you could pick a nice selection of units with a fluffy theme to your army and interesting strategic options. And win hard fought battles.

But that's the problem currently, there are some units that are amazing, some are average and some are disgustingly inferior. That means guys who really want to win will take all the best units and tourneys only will ever see certain units/formations/wargear. But when I play I want a good fair fight and that won't happen at all if I make a list of the units I like because fluff or I like the model etc and my opponent built an army of the units he likes because they are powerful and he likes having a powerful force. Neither of us are wrong but it won't make for a fun match because it will be so terribly one-sided. The balance needs to hit a point to which I can take the units I want, he can take the units he wants and we can have a fair and fun match where no one is going to be the clear winner based on his list. Clearly things like making sure you have enough anti-tank/MC are important but that's a fine part of the strategy. But truthfully I don't want to always have to fight an uphill battle ever single time I set up across from certain armies just because clearly their codex is written with a bigger power creep than mine. Some people thrive on these underdog challenges but not everyone does, having the underdog challenge forced upon you based on your army choice/unit preferences/disposable income to buy the biggest baddest new toys just doesn't make for a fun game to many people.

I guess I'm lucky that in my area people mostly take balanced sorts of lists and openly bitch about people that spam op units. The only time I ever saw/played a scatbike list was a guy who came from interstate for a tournament. Although we call them tournaments they are mostly just an excuse to play some games.

Lucky or not, it has no bearing on a discussion if certain units are worth it.

This game isn't very complicated, it's usually a simple matter to determine a unit's uses and relative power level and determine if it has a place in your meta.

The bottom line is don't be afraid of the soulless robots. You will never learn to beat them by avoiding them.

 darthdaddy wrote:
The bottom line is don't be afraid of the soulless robots. You will never learn to beat them by avoiding them.

Nope but I will learn to lose by facing them.

It's times like this I'm glad to play assaulty armies. If the Necrons want the objectives they're going to have to move forward. Which makes it easier to charge them and score a sweeping advance. Grey hunters with ccw (or assault marines or whatever your armies equivalent) can do it just fine. Just avoid the unit with the res orb and the wraiths. You'll need something beefier for that.

 Kavish wrote:
It's times like this I'm glad to play assaulty armies. If the Necrons want the objectives they're going to have to move forward. Which makes it easier to charge them and score a sweeping advance. Grey hunters with ccw (or assault marines or whatever your armies equivalent) can do it just fine. Just avoid the unit with the res orb and the wraiths. You'll need something beefier for that.

And what about us peasants whom dont play one of the big four?

Sorry but Orks and Tyranids are screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Guard.

SW run over the entire Necron list with TWC.

I don't understand this mentality. Give me the toughest list from any army and let me have a swing at them. If I loose at least I learned something and get to spend a few hours doing something I love.

What's annoying is hearing people moan about 80 scatter shots from Eldar, but those same 80 shots won't scratch the paint off Necrons. You might be lucky after rolling to hit, wound, they save, and then rp, and rez orb, to kill maybe 2-5 WARRIORS a turn. It's bs.

They is no guaranteed, surefire way to take them down unless you get lucky.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
What's annoying is hearing people moan about 80 scatter shots from Eldar, but those same 80 shots won't scratch the paint off Necrons. You might be lucky after rolling to hit, wound, they save, and then rp, and rez orb, to kill maybe 2-5 WARRIORS a turn. It's bs.

They is no guaranteed, surefire way to take them down unless you get lucky.

With average rolls, even in a decurion (no rez orb), you will kill ~11 warriors a turn.

Yes, the rez orb halves that. However it's a 1-use only item that costs a bunch and won't be spammed at all, especially not in warrior squads.

For comparison those 80 shots will kill ~15 Tactical Marines (~12 if they're Iron Hands), or the same number of non-Decurion, non-Cryptek-joined warriors.

The problem isn't RP, it's the Decurion.

Ninja'd

Being tough is the necron's bag but they don't have as many options on their units, or as much high S low ap (or d when talking about eldar), mid-low range shooting for the majority of their guns. Don't get me wrong necrons are still a strong army but I'd say the majority of that comes from their durability. If they didn't have their rp they would not be anywhere as strong as they are. Eldar could have their D back into the old way it was and they still would have a crazy army because of scatter laser spam and other things. Even if Necrons kepted the 5th ed RP but all the other changes stayed how they are now (anything dealing with RP would be worded to effect the old rp of course) people would say the necrons where hit pretty hard without the RP change (and people where saying necrons where doomed once they heard about the tesla changes and point increases).

 Kavish wrote:
It's times like this I'm glad to play assaulty armies. If the Necrons want the objectives they're going to have to move forward. Which makes it easier to charge them and score a sweeping advance. Grey hunters with ccw (or assault marines or whatever your armies equivalent) can do it just fine. Just avoid the unit with the res orb and the wraiths. You'll need something beefier for that.

10x ASM do ~1.7 wounds on the charge to Immortals who aren't in a decurion (A fair comparison since ASM are 17 ppm and so are Immortals). If they are in a reclamation legion, that drops to 1.29. Immortals will do ~
0.7 to 0.8 of a wound in return, leaving you testing on ld9 if at all. If the ASM don't break and run them down on the charge, then they almost never will, considering that one they're locked in combat, it's ~0.8 wounds for the ASM and the same 0.7-0.8 for the crons.

Since the crons in a decurion are relentless, they can charge the ASM and reliably win combat, but you're marines, so you don't care.

CSM are doubly screwed (as usual) since they aren't pseudo fearless and if they're beat (and they have lower Ld thn the crons too), not only can they be run down, even if they get away, they don't automatically rally, and if they do rally, they're firing snap shots and can't charge. The only thing they have going for them here is that the ASM equivalent are raptors, and they come stock with fear, so there is the 10% chance that they're hitting on 3's and being hit on 5's, but a 10% chance to mabye have +1 combat res against a ld 10 unit doesn't exactly strike me as awesome.

Also, just how the hell are you meant to avoid wraiths? They're either dead or charging something turn 2 for the most part, and they're usually charging whatever they want to charge and you often don't have much choice in the matter.

 darthdaddy wrote:
I don't understand this mentality. Give me the toughest list from any army and let me have a swing at them. If I loose at least I learned something and get to spend a few hours doing something I love.

And how many times is this fun? 1? 2? 5? 10? 50? 100? Eventally the only thing you learn is that your army can't beat theirs and that there's no point playing 'cause you both know the outcome before you deploy your models. Go on, play purge against Decuricrons, let me know how much you learn there and how fun it is after 20 games.

Martel732 wrote:
SW run over the entire Necron list with TWC.

Eeeeehhhh, I wouldn't quite say that. I played a 2v2 (Casual Necrons/Casual Skitarii vs. Decently strong SW and Nurgle Chaos marines). 2k points per person, and my Skitarii friend got virtually tabled, so he conceded and said "Good luck" to me. I then proceeded to almost table both of my opponents while having very little of my stuff die. And the SW player was using a big unit of TWC. Even my Warriors held them up for a turn or two, and when they were swept, it was a good thing because then I shot and killed all of them. They didn't do that much damage overall.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SW run over the entire Necron list with TWC.

Eeeeehhhh, I wouldn't quite say that. I played a 2v2 (Casual Necrons/Casual Skitarii vs. Decently strong SW and Nurgle Chaos marines). 2k points per person, and my Skitarii friend got virtually tabled, so he conceded and said "Good luck" to me. I then proceeded to almost table both of my opponents while having very little of my stuff die. And the SW player was using a big unit of TWC. Even my Warriors held them up for a turn or two, and when they were swept, it was a good thing because then I shot and killed all of them. They didn't do that much damage overall.

I also wouldn't say "run over" as well. The TWC do very well against the wraiths (since they can ID them with the right loadout and have a similar profile, although they are slower) but necrons have enough shooting that the SW are still about even. SW really need allies or better long range weapons before I would consider them a top tier army.
Did I mention I really hate the SW codex now? It used to be perfect for Chaos Marines (mix and match gear, good CC abilities, Wulfen represent mutated/possessed warriors, scouts are perfect alpha legion fits, good powers for alpha legion, Lone Wolf can represent a champion of chaos or a mini-daemon, TWC make great daemon cav....). Now I'm forced to go loyalist, since a TWC star doesn't seem very alpha legion

One big weakness of Necrons you can take advantage of is their lack of range. Gauss, which is the vast majority of their army is 24". Anything with 36"+ range will have a nice advantage.

I think RP is fine. The one part I completely disagree with is about insta-kills. If a model is insta-killed (double the toughness), they should not receive any RP at all, not just -1 to the roll.

Akiasura wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SW run over the entire Necron list with TWC.

Eeeeehhhh, I wouldn't quite say that. I played a 2v2 (Casual Necrons/Casual Skitarii vs. Decently strong SW and Nurgle Chaos marines). 2k points per person, and my Skitarii friend got virtually tabled, so he conceded and said "Good luck" to me. I then proceeded to almost table both of my opponents while having very little of my stuff die. And the SW player was using a big unit of TWC. Even my Warriors held them up for a turn or two, and when they were swept, it was a good thing because then I shot and killed all of them. They didn't do that much damage overall.

I also wouldn't say "run over" as well. The TWC do very well against the wraiths (since they can ID them with the right loadout and have a similar profile, although they are slower) but necrons have enough shooting that the SW are still about even. SW really need allies or better long range weapons before I would consider them a top tier army.
Did I mention I really hate the SW codex now? It used to be perfect for Chaos Marines (mix and match gear, good CC abilities, Wulfen represent mutated/possessed warriors, scouts are perfect alpha legion fits, good powers for alpha legion, Lone Wolf can represent a champion of chaos or a mini-daemon, TWC make great daemon cav....). Now I'm forced to go loyalist, since a TWC star doesn't seem very alpha legion

Hopefully the new Space Wolves codex heavily rumored to be coming in Feb will return the army to more than just Thundercav at the more competitive levels, thus allowing us poor Chaos players a decent stand-in book to get us by for the next 18-24 months before our own codex gets a re-do. (and hopefully we'll actually get a decent codex this time, instead of a steaming rodent turd 4.2ed codex! )


As for how stupidly resilient 'Crons are, especially within their Decurion?

They remind me a lot of trying to wrestle the old "Dickenhoff Guard" Vampire Counts lists from 7th ed fantasy...
You know, the list where it was pretty much impossible to avoid the super Deathstar of doom that had S5 Killing Blow attacks, that always hit on 2's, with 'Always Strikes First' AND would charge in the Magic phase thanks to Vanhel's Danse?!
Meanwhile those Ghoul & Zombies blocks would routinely add more models to their units each turn than you would be killing?!

Yep, fun times watching your opponent finish a game with more models than they started with, while your army was handed back to you on a platter!

Decurion Necrons play like the exact same brick wall in 40k. It's just not fun seeing only your stuff die, while your opponent might remove half a dozen models after 5+ turns of you throwing everything and the kitchen sink at them.

Please don't mention VC.
Let's keep this civil.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Hopefully the new Space Wolves codex heavily rumored to be coming in Feb will return the army to more than just Thundercav at the more competitive levels, thus allowing us poor Chaos players a decent stand-in book to get us by for the next 18-24 months before our own codex gets a re-do. (and hopefully we'll actually get a decent codex this time, instead of a steaming rodent turd 4.2ed codex! )

Wait what? Space Wolves getting a new codex already? Say what you want about Space Wolves in 7th Edition but at least they aren't ORKS! If GW starts going back and re-doing 7th Edition Codexes and doesn't START with the codex that they gakked the crap out of first I'll be quite annoyed.

When 7th Edition Orks came out all us Ork players were sort of like "Ehhh OK... well it's a new book let's see what we can do with it, but this doesn't look that great..." Then a couple months later Space Wolves dropped... vastly superior in just about every single way... and Ork players instantly pretty much knew this would be a trend, and we'd gotten shafted badly.

BUT we can still laugh at Space Wolves on the model front, because we got some awesome cool walkers, Flash Gitz, and Meganobz. You guys got Santa Claus and a flying...

Murrdox wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Hopefully the new Space Wolves codex heavily rumored to be coming in Feb will return the army to more than just Thundercav at the more competitive levels, thus allowing us poor Chaos players a decent stand-in book to get us by for the next 18-24 months before our own codex gets a re-do. (and hopefully we'll actually get a decent codex this time, instead of a steaming rodent turd 4.2ed codex! )

Wait what? Space Wolves getting a new codex already? Say what you want about Space Wolves in 7th Edition but at least they aren't ORKS! If GW starts going back and re-doing 7th Edition Codexes and doesn't START with the codex that they gakked the crap out of first I'll be quite annoyed.

When 7th Edition Orks came out all us Ork players were sort of like "Ehhh OK... well it's a new book let's see what we can do with it, but this doesn't look that great..." Then a couple months later Space Wolves dropped... vastly superior in just about every single way... and Ork players instantly pretty much knew this would be a trend, and we'd gotten shafted badly.

BUT we can still laugh at Space Wolves on the model front, because we got some awesome cool walkers, Flash Gitz, and Meganobz. You guys got Santa Claus and a flying...

At least Orks are a lot more likely to be updated this year... Chaos gets to wait until likely well into 2017 before we get toys. (which will likely still invariably just be Loyalists -1)

And we're still playing with a 6th edition codex AND our other one feels & reads like it's just a 4.1 version of the worst codex GW has ever produced!

Akiasura wrote:
Please don't mention VC.
Let's keep this civil.

Well, at least I didn't compare Decurion 'Crons to 7th ed Daemons of Chaos!