NoPoet wrote: All I can say is, these girls must be REALLY tough if all they wear to a battle is their knickers. Why do female fantasy/sci-fi characters all seem to be some kind of wish fulfilment designed for people who don't know any real women?
Imagine everyday dealings - political rallies, meetings, judgements, status updates, training, dealing with other people - if the woman is wearing only knickers and bra. Hard to imagine she'd be taken very seriously, or present much authority...
You're applying human standards of morality and decency to non-human subjects. In thi case, subjects with an explicit system of both, which is very alien to those of humans.
The non-human models are very clearly sub-ins for Dark Eldar and Slaaneshi daemons. Dark Eldar eschew heavy armor, since every ounce of deadweight slows them down even more, and speed is valued more than protection in their minds. Furthermore, it actually benefits the army for its members to become injured, further making heavy armor less beneficial. The coven forces are expendable drudges, whose flesh is all the protection their haemonculus masters are willing to spare on them. Finally, the wych cults display as much of their bodies as possible, both to dare their opponents to strike and to show off how unblemished their skin is by past scars.
Slaaneshi daemons, by comparison, also go into battle scantily clad, but they display their bodies as an act of veneration of their deity, a god of lust, perversion, and excess. So again, it makes perfect sense for them to be in various states of undress.
NoPoet wrote: All I can say is, these girls must be REALLY tough if all they wear to a battle is their knickers. Why do female fantasy/sci-fi characters all seem to be some kind of wish fulfilment designed for people who don't know any real women?
Imagine everyday dealings - political rallies, meetings, judgements, status updates, training, dealing with other people - if the woman is wearing only knickers and bra. Hard to imagine she'd be taken very seriously, or present much authority...
Who says I don't know any women who walk around in scantly clothing regularly? Does that make them not real women? I don't think so.
However you are talking about current views, morals and trends and applying that to a futuristic fantasy environment... who says their point of view is the same as existing. Not to mention if you want to look at something realistically, modern armor doesn't really provide much protection against modern weapons that are armor penetrating, laser, cutting, decapitating violence. As to what presents authority... I didn't realize clothes represented authority vs the person with the large gun and license to kill.
Note: Not being completely serious, so don't take this as an attack or offense. I tend to take a devils advocate role to anything.
Looking at the original art for that Lust Elves General, she seems to have lost her legs that were originally coming out of her robes.
Maybe that's why she looks a bit diminished.
agnosto wrote: So, let me get this straight; even after the fact that the previous KS is still unfulfilled and this company's track record of complete randomness, people saw fit to give them an additional $801,057? It boggles the mind. Sure, the models look great but you might be dead by the time they actually release them.
Well i am only missing my mecha stuff the rest is delivered, we are just suckers for shiny miniatures (or maybe it's the boobs )
Honestly, and I say this as someone quite critical of Raging Heroes, I can completely understand why they get backers, compared to absolute useless lying gaks like Palladium, Prodos and Games and Gears, they really aren't that bad.
In an industry where the default copmany to compare folks to seems to be GW, the sins of Raging Heroes are miniscule.
Don't get me wrong, they've certainly got things they could improve on. But next to quite a few other companies, they're still doing pretty great. (And DEFINITELY better this time around.)
RH is slow, frustrating, a bit full of themselves and extremely French.
However for a boutique minis maker they have one of the larger product lines out there and consistently deliver some of the best minis on the market a relatively fair price. As a bonus, for all their skin, they're one of the few places on the market you can find sci-fi females who don't look like they just stepped off the set of themed pornography.
Of all the things? You haven't seen Montreal's pathetic excuse for a subway, then. If you're already in the central core, then it's great. If you're outside, then you're screwed no matter what. Their metro seems positively brilliant to me.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Of all the things? You haven't seen Montreal's pathetic excuse for a subway, then. If you're already in the central core, then it's great. If you're outside, then you're screwed no matter what. Their metro seems positively brilliant to me.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: And remember, those minis were late in the game, so they probably won't be on top of the to-do pile.
But...I thought that RH didn't actually work in any discernible 'order' or with what could be called 'logic' - just from The Super Secret Proprietary Workflow Spreadsheet® and ™?
We know how you are all eagerly awaiting the monthly Update, and it may seem like we're taking a cruel pleasure in making you linger for a few extra days before releasing this. And on top of this, this Update comes with very few images! We are really sorry about that... The truth is that the summer months are always a bit hard on the planning and scheduling. A big part of the creative team is currently on holidays, and 2 of our sculptors, Andrea and Francesca, just welcomed Gino, their very first baby, last Thursday!
Nevertheless, a lot of work has been accomplished in July. The only thing missing are the images to share with you. That's because preparing the renders takes about a full week of work for 2 to 3 people, and we chose to keep the focus on the sculpting work since we're operating with a reduced crew until the end of August.
The good news is that you'll get a double dose of images in the September Update! And the other good news is that we have a very special surprise for you this month...
Bonus Unlock – The Huntress!
“Can we work towards unlocking the Huntress next? The concept art is fantastic and both the Fantasy and Sci-Fi versions would work for a very wide variety of games/settings.” – Arthur Monteath-Car
We know that this one has been a favourite of yours since the beginning, and we received many messages like this one
Not to mention the fact that you're not the only ones to like this gal. Alex, one of our sculptors, started working on her in his spare time, so eager was he to convince us that we had to unlock her! His work was so good, we could only agree with him. We then passed on his work to Svetlana, another one of our freelance sculptors, and boy did she deliver!
So now, both Sci-Fi and Fantasy versions of The Huntress are UNLOCKED and will be available for our backers.
But who is this girl exactly? Why does she look so different than the rest of the Sisters? Some say that she is the blade in the shadows. Others swear that she's the one Sister who does the dirty deeds. Most agree that she's the one without a name. She's just The Huntress.
→ The Huntress (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
→ The Huntress (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
And, guys, just so you know: please do NOT expect more bonus unlocks in every Update
3D Print Preview
The 3D prints are arriving to our office at a steady pace. Here's a sneak peak of the most recent ones.
Sister Celenia
Kraash, the Beastmaster
One of the beasts
Beedle, one of the Sisters' Minions
Krudle, one of the Sisters' Minions
Nope, probably everyone's favourite Minion
Vladimir the Virtuous
Doralys minus her tears
Shalia
Sorceress Shiveryah
Silkeeriss
Sister Trematta
Completed Sculpts
Below are all the sculpts that were finished this month and are about to be sent to the 3D printer.
A lot of great stuff here. One of our favourite is probably Lady Melith, who turned out extremely and will probably become a painter's favourite.
Also, we know that some of you were not too keen on Violet, the Dark Elf Mascot, as even if we put much effort in the concept, a lot of what we were looking for was not there yet. So we put a lot of work on the sculpt, going through three versions before finalising her. In the end, she now has that old lady haughty and nasty look that we were looking for.
Finally, you'll notice that we added back Zailith to this list: despite showing here as completed in Update #26, we were not completely happy with her posing. So we tweaked her pose a bit and we now feel that she has the regal look she was supposed to have.
Again, as mentioned above, there are no renders to show for this Update, due to lack of manpower this summer. We plan to have them for our next monthly Update.
Arkiish, The Black Reaper (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine) Lady Kashala, Dark Elf General (Fantasy – Heroine) Lady Kashala, Void Elf General (SciFi – Heroine) Lady Melith, Courtesan (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) Liligrith, Exsanguinatrix (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) Sephea, Executrix Champion (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) Sister Trematta, Field Resurectrix (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine) Tobias (Sisters Mascot – Freebie) Violet (Dark Elves Mascot – Freebie) Zailith (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) – Updated version (see above) Zaraya, Pilgrim Priestess (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine) Zaraya, Pilgrim Priestess (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
Sculpts Still in the Completion Queue
You might notice that the sculpts in this list have been here for some time. The reason for this is because some of these sculpts were in the hands of Andrea and Francesca, and they've been busy bringing to life a little miniature of their own these past few weeks. Other sculpts actually need special attention from the Art Director, and with so many other sculpts getting done at this time, he's got less time than he would like to directly work on these sculpts. But don't worry, they will get time for their close-up too.
Asharah (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine) Asharah (Void Elves – SciFi – Heroine) Sister Altarii (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine) Sister Altarii (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine) Sister Ardanna, Pillar of the Faith (Sisters – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) Templar Ela Seraqui, Demon Slayer (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine) Templar Ela Seraqui, Demon Slayer (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
New Sculpts Near Completion
Quite a few sculpts are now almost done:
Senshyrha, Slave Master (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine) Senshyrha, Slave Master (Lust Elves – SciFi – Heroine) Sinzirith, Blood Vestal High Priestess (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) The Daughters of the Orphanage (Sisters – Fantasy – Command and Troops) The Daughters of the Crucible (Sisters – SciFi – Command and Troops)
Sculpts in Progress
These Sculpts were started up several weeks ago, and are continuing to move forward.
The Blood Vestals (first the Sci-Fi version, then the Fantasy) The Davidians (mostly the SciFi version) The remaining Freebies Xarsiss and Rithali-in The Throne of the Succubi The War Pulpit
New Sculpts in Progress
Here is are the new sculpts that we started working on since our previous Update. It does not mean that all will be finished by the time the next Update (next month) rolls around, but significant progress will have been made on these characters.
Ascended Sister Erzebel, Great Seraphim (Sisters – Fantasy/SciFi – Heroine) Varaseesh, The Venomous (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine) Varaseesh, The Venomous (Lust Elves – Sci-Fi – Heroine) 3 Stingrays - Command Group (Lust Elves – Fantasy – Troops) 3 Stingrays - Command Group (Void Elves – SciFi – Troops)
Sculpting Workshop
In the previous Update, you may remember us saying that we had added new sculptors to the team. To get them up and running as fast as possible, and also to refine our workflow once more, we invited 3 of them to the studio for an intensive week-long training session.
So from Madrid, Oslo and Helsinki they came, and it was an absolute blast. Everybody learned a lot during that week. And on our end, we saw how working together in the same room for a time had a impact even on the sculpts that we have yet to meet in person. But we worked so intently all week that none of us thought to snap a picture of our time together!
We will definitely do more sculpting workshops in the future, so that we can bring in other members of the sculpting team in the next coming months and continue to raise the bar.
Drink Mats
As we had to reprint more beer coasters mats for the TGG1, we took this opportunity to assemble a first series of TGG2 Drink Mats! This series is all about the Daughters of the crucible, but I'm sure you'll agree this is not a bad choice And just like we did in the TGG1 shipments, we'll include random drink mats in your parcels when we ship you your Rewards. We'll also soon add them to our webshop, in case you're planning a TGG party at your place or gaming club!
The TGG2 Drink Mats, featuring the Daughters of the Crucible
Angels' Weaponry
In the last few weeks, we've received a significant amount of questions about the Sisters' Angels, especially concerning their weaponry. As you saw in the campaign, we've planned them with lances, but many of you have asked if we could provide other weapon options.
As you know, while we work on production, nothing is really set in stone, and so there's always time to make things evolve. But if we choose a specific kind of equipment, let's say, the lance, or a sword + shield, we probably won't be able to put both options in the same box.
So, given this, what would be your favoured choice?
Well, that's all for now. Feel free to browse over to our latest TGG1 update, for more pretty pictures and a couple of images for our upcoming TGG1 Artbook.
I ended up doing a late Lieutenant pledge through Paypal because those totally-not-Slaanesh Elves were just too good to pass up on. The Centaurs are absolutely phenomenal. See a lot of people complaining about their last Kickstarter, were/are the delays/communication that bad? I don't really mind as long as it gets there. Hopefully they learned something from last time.
P.S. What the hell is going on with the Huntress's mouth? I can't tell if she's about to stick her tongue out, has a fat lip, or has a mouth guard on.
Jimsolo wrote: This doesn't seem like it's already going faster than the last one to you?
Does it? I wasn't in the last one. Comparatively, how far along are they? I heard something about the last KS being almost 2 years beyond deadline and it's still not done? I mean, I dropped a modest amount on my pledge, but the models definitely look worth it. Besides, having pledged to another Kickstarter that has been suffering major delays (Creature Caster), as long as their communication is good I tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to wait times.
But two years? That's pretty rough. What exactly happened?
"Finally, you'll notice that we added back Zailith to this list: despite showing here as completed in Update #26, we were not completely happy with her posing. So we tweaked her pose a bit and we now feel that she has the regal look she was supposed to have."
this is 'interesting', finished a sculpt......er......we can do betterer...... fiddle with sculpt....... now we're done for sure
basically this happened a lot in KS1 which certainly slowed it down (although it certainly improved the product), and now we see it happening here too
time for those hoping for a quicker ride this time to start worrying (more)?
Jimsolo wrote: This doesn't seem like it's already going faster than the last one to you?
Does it? I wasn't in the last one. Comparatively, how far along are they? I heard something about the last KS being almost 2 years beyond deadline and it's still not done? I mean, I dropped a modest amount on my pledge, but the models definitely look worth it. Besides, having pledged to another Kickstarter that has been suffering major delays (Creature Caster), as long as their communication is good I tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to wait times.
But two years? That's pretty rough. What exactly happened?
Depending on who you ask, the answer to that changes. Personally, I think they anticipated a big response, but maybe not quite as big as they got. I also think they hadn't fully prepared to expand their operation to that level. I have high hopes that they learned a few things the first time around, and are doing a bit better this time. Fortunately, it seems about finished; people are getting the last of their pledges even as we speak.
That Huntress' hat seems like texture for the sake of texture. Not my cup of tea at all. Also, she'll be connected to the base by sheer force of will? Those are supposed to be gaming pieces, right?
Like everything I've seen thus far. But my heart belongs to the Daughters of the Crucible so if Raging Heroes want to post images of them, I'd be more than okay with that.
I would like to know how she's supposed to stay on her base, though.
I would like to know why she's wearing a mouth guard.
Seriously, am I the only one who's super confused about what's going on with her lips/mouth? She's such a great model, but that face just kills it for me.
Hey, if I were going to be risking getting smacked in my unhelmeted head by heretics, and didn't have good dental insurance, I would totally wear at least a mouth guard.
My guess on the foot is that there will be a rock or bit of bulkhead attached to the bottom of her foot. An elegant solution would be a steel wire cast into the leg that comes out the bottom, but an annoying thing to produce.
BrookM wrote: The mini will be produced in metal and resin right? If so.. It'll come on a tab or whatever it's called that you stick into the slotta of the base.
However, if you plan on using custom bases..
I did some Hormagaunts on resin bases a while back, and what I ended up having to do was run some rod from their body down into the base. It's relatively low profile and keeps them on pretty well. If you're really careful you could probably run a rod up her leg. Otherwise, it might look a bit unsightly coming down from her crotch. Although, with that large length of cloth covering her front, it might not be too noticeable.
Their mini's are nine out of eleven times the sort where practicality is ignored in favour of looking good and extreme.
Like, you'd think they'd learn a thing or two about making their models fit onto their bleeding bases after the first three Kurganova sisters with their legs so far akimbo regular 28mm bases didn't cut it.
Yes, the tallest sister was the most egregious of the lot. That large tab had to stay because it was the only to fit her feet on anything solid. Made for a more complicated job fitting her in with other models that all had the same basing.
Why did I pledge, again? Ah right, need something to do in 2 years time.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yes, the tallest sister was the most egregious of the lot. That large tab had to stay because it was the only to fit her feet on anything solid. Made for a more complicated job fitting her in with other models that all had the same basing.
Why did I pledge, again? Ah right, need something to do in 2 years time.
A bit over two weeks ago, we were scrupulously and meticulously gathering the various elements necessary to prepare the next Update. For once, we were beginning to do so quite in advance. That's because we wanted to make sure we'd meet our self-imposed deadline of outputting Updates roughly every 30 days. And then, the plan was that, after this Update, we'd leave France in early September to spend a few days at the foundry in the USA and plan the manufacturing of the TGG2 miniatures with the foundry team.
But this was August, and the gods were bored. So they thought they'd amuse themselves by wreaking havoc on our planning. They devised a cunning chain of events that forced us to jump on the first airplane out of Montpellier and rejoin our foundry team in the United States three weeks earlier than expected.
Once there, we worked very hard with the foundry. Together, we set in motion many actions that will prove a definite plus for the upcoming TGG2 production. Together, we spent two weeks analysing our sculpting and manufacturing process, reviewing the most intricate details, and devising improved methods and workflows. All this was EXTREMELY fruitful.
Needless to say, this trip delayed the renders of the finished TGG2 sculpts. However, while thoroughly jet lagged and working at decidedly strange hours now that we are back in France, we're hard at work getting those renders ready for you.
So, with all this going on, we wanted to let you know that we had to delay the full Update for a few more days because we want to show you as many new images as we can, and tell you more about our foundry trip.
Until then, please enjoy your early September days, and gleefully remind yourself that they no longer mean 'back-to-school' for you (well, perhaps for most of you, that is). Meanwhile, for more TGG goodness, check out our TGG1 Update #110, which we just published now.
The very first TGG2 moulds being made right before our eyes!
Have they been existing mostly on KS 'revenue' for (x) years now?
And...this is going to be a loooooong wait, isn't it?
Indeed. Put simply, something unexpected happened that meant the entire team was away for three weeks so we could learn some things. Renders soon, promise. - RH
I'm with you guys....I weathered the first one and dropped alot in the second one too...but I never really complained. I'm kinda laid back about ks though...as long as it fulfills one day.
I did get called out for referring tp them as "french" though. That might have counted as a complaint.
I'll chime in to make a joke here and there...it IS what dakka does you know...
Actually, I pledged for the fantasy sisters. It's more for the pleasure of the miniatures than for a set game - thus I took a lot less than the first one.
I don't know why, but I'm not convinced by the sci-fi artworks. Anyway, by the time this pledge is completed, GW will certainly sell a game called Age of Abaddon to replace 40k and kill all the Adepta Sororitas in the new fluff.
rayphoton wrote: I'm with you guys....I weathered the first one and dropped alot in the second one too...but I never really complained. I'm kinda laid back about ks though...as long as it fulfills one day.
Same here. I'm used to delays, having backed many Kickstarters, from several categories other just gaming, so I tend to take a laid back approach, too.
Oh, I don't give them a "pass," no. I still expect the product and expect to see progress happen over time. I just know, going in, things will always take longer than planned. Forewarned is forearmed or however the saying goes.
As always, it's a risk assessment: do I pay less money now for product later, or wait for the product to come out later and pay more money?
Alpharius wrote: That's definitely best for your overall health and blood pressure, but giving companies a pass "because Kickstarter!" is kind of lame.
Especially companies that aren't new to the Kickstarter Experience.
I think it's less about risk and more about a cost/benefit analysis. I know Raging Heroes is going to be late. But their customer service has always been on par for me, and their model quality is good enough that I'm willing to suck up the tardiness.
Every game company has huge flaws in their product or the way they do business. It's just a matter of figuring out which flaws are deal breakers and which ones aren't. The lateness isn't a deal-breaker for me, after everything else is weighed in.
in the end did i get a boatload of incredibly well done boutique miniatures for a 3rd the price....yes.....
Did I pledge to the new KS knowing this would all happen again...yes....
All in all...i feel I did well
I pledged less in the second kickstarter than I might have had I received my figures before hand.
And that's totally fair...They could have done a better job and I was also concerned when they announced a second before the fist had resolved. I guess I'm taking a gamble. I have no doubt this will be super delayed and have terrible communication. But man I sure love their designs.
All the renders look pretty good. But there's just something about Justicia Luz's hands that looks off. I'm not entirely sure what, but I think it might be the very sharp bend in the hand holding the gun pointing down.
prankster wrote: All the renders look pretty good. But there's just something about Justicia Luz's hands that looks off. I'm not entirely sure what, but I think it might be the very sharp bend in the hand holding the gun pointing down.
The hands don't look connected to the arms. And the perfect line the guns make look bad as well.
Very nice stuff to show this update. Though this quote right after all the shiny renders does not bode well:
Raging Heroes wrote:As you may know, very often, we have several sculptors working on a single sculpts so that each individual can bring to it what he/she is best at. But with the TGG2 Troops, we want to bring this approach up to a whole new level. As we gear up for this, we deliberately are making the choice of slowing production a bit and focussing and training up all of our sculptors.
Sigh, at least the models will be worth it, right?
On a side note, the face on Xarsiss is freaking stupid. She's a terrifying but beautiful harpy but she's got a face like some dopey teenager taking a duckface selfie.
She looks like she's getting ready to kiss something that isn't there. And she's got a dead emotionless expression, rather than the sinister, sly smile she had in the artwork. The facial features are nothing like the concept art.
Does anyone know if the connoiseur box for this kickstarter included all the heroine models like in TGG1? Or is it only the lame 'vignettes' that the mentioned?
I'm not seeing a smile, sinister, sly, or otherwise. The concept art looks like she has a shadow on her face, like from her bone structure or what have you, but I don't think it's a smile. Honestly, the concept art looks pretty gutter-skanky and raggedy. The render doesn't look dynamic, I'll give you that, but it looks like a person with some grace and poise. Like a runway model, or somesuch. I understand some people don't like that look, but I think its a big improvement over the sketch.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm not seeing a smile, sinister, sly, or otherwise. The concept art looks like she has a shadow on her face, like from her bone structure or what have you, but I don't think it's a smile. Honestly, the concept art looks pretty gutter-skanky and raggedy. The render doesn't look dynamic, I'll give you that, but it looks like a person with some grace and poise. Like a runway model, or somesuch. I understand some people don't like that look, but I think its a big improvement over the sketch.
The sculpt is great, except the face. She has literally no expression except duck lips. There's definitely expression and emotion in the face of the concept art. None of that made it to the model.
This is the last Kickstarter that I am waiting on. Given the first one they did took just over two years, how long do you think this will will take to fulfill?
Jimsolo wrote: I'm not seeing a smile, sinister, sly, or otherwise. The concept art looks like she has a shadow on her face, like from her bone structure or what have you, but I don't think it's a smile. Honestly, the concept art looks pretty gutter-skanky and raggedy. The render doesn't look dynamic, I'll give you that, but it looks like a person with some grace and poise. Like a runway model, or somesuch. I understand some people don't like that look, but I think its a big improvement over the sketch.
The sculpt is great, except the face. She has literally no expression except duck lips. There's definitely expression and emotion in the face of the concept art. None of that made it to the model.
Full lips, yes. Duck lips, no. I don't see it, at any rate.
Her expression looks the same, except for the raggedy shadow line in the sketch.
Bob, you realise just how small her eventual head will be. Especially compared to the concept art. Especially especially compared to the size of that render?
Automatically Appended Next Post: My only concern is that this KS could be (and probably will be) so blown-out delayed that it'll fall into my glorious government's new "10% GST on all imports" that's due to come in in July 2017. Given that the last one hasn't completed, it's a definite concern.
Azazelx wrote: My only concern is that this KS could be (and probably will be) so blown-out delayed that it'll fall into my glorious government's new "10% GST on all imports" that's due to come in in July 2017. Given that the last one hasn't completed, it's a definite concern.
Is your order more than $1,000? If not, it will still be GST-free. The only companies who have to collect GST are those which sell at least $75,000 of product in Australia per year, and Raging Heroes is going to be way, way below that threshold.
Not much updating here while there are enough updated on facebook
GG2 - UPDATE #30: NEW RENDERS... OH... MY... GOD!!!
So, as promised, here's an orgy of renders to feast your eyes on. Below, you will find the work of two summer months' worth of sculpting.
As you can see, the Freebies are now almost finished (we are just missing Tobias and Ardanna), and a very big quantity of Heroines have also been made.
This means that these figures are moving on to 3D printing as quickly as we can prepare the files. As you will see below, in the section covering our trip to the foundry, the first TGG2 masters have already made their way to the foundry.
So we're pretty excited, because things are moving along quite nicely.
Our goal for the upcoming 4 weeks is to finish preparing all the finished sculpts for 3D printing, and move them along to the foundry. At the same time, we plan to start implementing an updated workflow for the troops. Scroll down below the renders for more info.
COMPLETED SCULPTS
You will find below the renders for the following completed sculpts:
Lady Melith, Courtesan (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Mahleezariah, Lust Elves Matriarch (Lust Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Heroine)
Arthenya VI The Archpapess (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
Arthenya VI The Archpapess (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
Augusta, The Mother Superior (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
Augusta, The Mother Superior (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
Lady Kashala, Dark Elf General (Fantasy – Heroine)
Lady Kashala, Void Elf General (SciFi – Heroine)
Liligrith, Exsanguinatrix (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Sephea, Executrix Champion (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Sister Trematta, Field Resurectrix (Sisters – SF – Heroine)
Violet (Dark Elves Mascot – Freebie)
Zailith (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) – Updated version
Rithali-in, Expiatrix (Sisters – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Zaraya, Pilgrim Priestess (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
Zaraya, Pilgrim Priestess (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
Sinzirith, Blood Vestal High Priestess (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Xarsiss, Harpie Queen (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Sister Altarii (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
Sister Altarii (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
Arkiish, The Black Reaper (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine)
The 10 Daughters of the Crucible (Sisters – SciFi – Command and Troops)
→ Lady Melith, Courtesan (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
→ Mahleezariah, Lust Elves Matriarch (Lust Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Heroine)
By the way, remember that this Lust Elves Matriarch is a pretty large miniature. See this image http://i.imgur.com/Edm6sd3.jpgfor reference.
→ Arthenya VI, The Archpapess (Sisters Heroine)
We knew from the start that Arthenya VI would be quite a character, and we are extremely happy with how she turned out. Nevertheless, we decided to forego the small cherubs from the concept and replace them with angel-like minions instead, which will work better fluff-wise. Please note that the 2 minions will be on separate bases, and there will be a scroll stretching down to the ground to hold up the one with the gun/sword.
→ Augusta, The Mother Superior (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
→ Augusta, The Mother Superior (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
→ Lady Kashala, Dark Elf General (Fantasy – Heroine)
→ Lady Kashala, Void Elf General (SciFi – Heroine)
→ Sister Trematta, Field Resurectrix (Sisters – SF – Heroine)
→ Violet (Dark Elves Mascot – Freebie)
To be honest, we know that some of you were not fully onboard with the concept of Violet that was shown during the KS campaign. The truth is that we had a very specific idea in mind, but it was not easy to translate it visually. So a lot of work has gone into this sculpt and we are now quite happy that she looks like the haughty and grumpy old lady we had envisioned.
→ Zailith (Dark Elves – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine) – Updated version
We were no 100% happy with the posing of Zailith from a previous render, and so we slightly tweaked it. It might look like a very subtle difference but we know that the final miniature will look a lot better for it.
During the campaign, a few backers were puzzled by the look of Rithali-in, as they thought she were a Dark Elf and not a Sister... It will probably make more sense to you when you see her leading units of Repenting Sinners (some of our future Sister miniatures). She moves them forward into battle, towering above them on high iron heels, negligently cracking her whip whenever the spirit moves her...
→ Zaraya, Pilgrim Priestess (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
→ Sister Altarii (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
You saw Altarii during the campaign, but since then, we have extensively reworked the proportions of that first sculpt as well as the design of several of her elements.
→ Sister Altarii (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
→ Arkiish, The Black Reaper (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine)
→ The Daughters of the Crucible (Sisters – SciFi – Command and Troops)
SCULPTS IN THE COMPLETION QUEUE
These are sculpts that are almost done. Normally, they should only need a bit of work to be finished. They are
Senshyrha, Slave Master (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine)
Senshyrha, Slave Master (Lust Elves – SciFi – Heroine)
The Daughters of the Orphanage (Sisters – Fantasy – Command and Troops)
3 Stingrays - Command Group (Lust Elves – Fantasy – Troops)
3 Stingrays - Command Group (Void Elves – SciFi – Troops)
The sculpts listed below have been lingering in the Completion queue for a while now. Sometimes, there are sculpts that prove harder than expected to bring up to the level we want them to be at. The ones below have been waiting for attention for a while now, because the people who could give them the necessary finishing touches have been kept super-busy with other sculpts. And so it's hard to squeeze them back into the planning. But just like you, we are extremely eager to see them done!
Asharah (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine)
Asharah (Void Elves – SciFi – Heroine)
Sister Ardanna, Pillar of the Faith (Sisters – Fantasy/SciFi – Freebie/Heroine)
Templar Ela Seraqui, Demon Slayer (Sisters – Fantasy – Heroine)
Templar Ela Seraqui, Demon Slayer (Sisters – SciFi – Heroine)
And finally, there's Tobias (Sisters Mascot – Freebie)
Tobias had been pegged as finished. But when we prepared the renders, we were not happy with him. So we sent him back to the Completion Queue.
SCULPTS IN PROGRESS
These sculpts have been worked on, but they need much more work to be called finished. Nevertheless, we they have begun to take shape, and we can't wait to move them forward. They are
The Draahk Riders (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Troops)
Ascended Sister Erzebel, Great Seraphim (Sisters – Fantasy/SciFi – Heroine)
Varaseesh, The Venomous (Dark Elves – Fantasy – Heroine)
Varaseesh, The Venomous (Lust Elves – Sci-Fi – Heroine)
Avatar of Shaah (Lust Elves – Fantasy– Heroine)
The Blood Vestals (first the Sci-Fi version, then the Fantasy)
The Davidians (mostly the Sci-Fi version)
The Throne of the Succubi
The War Pulpit
THE TROOPS ARE NEXT!
While some of the sculptors will be preparing the finished Freebies and Heroines for 3D print, the rest of the crew will set up an updated workflow to produce the TGG2 Troops. During the Kickstarter campaign, you've see a few sculpts of troopers and units. In retrospect, these were still very much work-in progress and tests. We now know that we can make them look much better and get them up to our continually higher standards.
As you may know, very often, we have several sculptors working on a single sculpts so that each individual can bring to it what he/she is best at. But with the TGG2 Troops, we want to bring this approach up to a whole new level. As we gear up for this, we deliberately are making the choice of slowing production a bit and focusing and training up all of our sculptors.
In the end, the production will move decidedly faster. However, it is quite possible that next month, we may have less sculpts to show you than in our previous monthly updates.
The Stingrays are already in the completion queue, and will be one of the first Troops to be finished.
I need to up my pledge to the lieutenant box (went in at $15 initially, just in case), but the paypal system is so confusing... maybe I should just wait for the pledge manager?
[img]https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/805/500/a62e4f86dcaa1cfde916612a7767217d_original.jpg?v=1446247264&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=66977cb02df766d86454e30c57b9e186[/ig]
stingray riders sf
(only the some of these were unlocked, but they've sculpted the lot, but as a result some will be more expensive, though not full retail)
daughters of the orphanage
more daughters.... was only getting the SF ones, now I need all of them, mutter,mutter
That one certainly will. Do you think the others are going to be just as big? I saw the picture and thought maybe she was exceptional, size wise, given that she's a special character.
I think they more or less took some of the lessons previously learned to heart this time around, plus they know they can ill afford to have another one overshoot the initially promised delivery date by a long shot, no matter how good the mini's may be.
I buy the odd kit from them as they become available, so there's that. However, the retail prices are quite steep for what you get, plus the casting quality isn't all there either, looking at you, greasy and mold-line ridden Jailbird mecha.
As the New Year begins, the entire Raging Heroes team and I wanted to send you our very best and warmest wishes for a 2016 year filled with fun, friends, games, painting, modelling, growing, singing and a hearty dose of excitement.
On our end, we are currently working on finishing a new Update full of badass looking sculpts. It will be ready next week but in the meantime, we did not want to leave you waiting for news.
So what’s happening here at the studio ? We are pretty close to have all the TGG2 heroines sculpted and new 3D prints keep on coming in. The foundry has already made quite a lot of production moulds and this means that, yes, the opening of the Pledge Manager is not far away now.
We still have to finish the sculpt of Ardanna, the last of the Freebies, as we want to make sure that all the Freebies will be available when the Pledge Manager opens so that you can get a big first shipment if you are so inclined and get all the Freebies right away.
But, as Lieutenant Parker was the troublemaker of TGG1 (one of the first sculpt we started and one of the last ones we finished), Ardanna is proving to have her own temper and we are having a hard time getting her right. We are not far from having curbed her rebellious attitude, but boy, is she hard to manage… 4 or 5 sculptors have been necessary to bring her up to the standards we have set for her. Anyway, she will be done in two weeks at most.
In the last two Updates, we talked a lot about our Troops’ workflow. Everything looks great on that front, everything is ready to go… except that the two people who are meant to create the troops' poses are Benoit (the Art Director) and I (Mireille, the General Manager)… And we have been tied up with so many different things in December that we haven’t been able to create all these poses. Just so you know, this is one of the last steps of the process so it means a lot has already been made but there is basically nothing to show to you yet :(
So, in the meantime, the rest of the sculpting team has continued working mostly on Heroines. And you’ll get a big load of them in next week’s Update. Then the Troops will follow in February as Benoit and I finally get the posing going.
We want to take the opportunity of this short Update to once again thank you for your ongoing support. Backing a Kickstarter is about believing in a dream that has not yet materialised. And we want to thank you most sincerely for sharing that dream with us. By helping us bringing the TGGs to life, you have become a key part in the Raging Heroes story and your faith in us has transformed our very small 3-people company into a project that keeps getting bigger and bigger in every ways.
If you already own some of our minis, I think that once you get the TGG2 minis in your hands, you will notice how the whole team has pushed the enveloppe to bring you something even better than our previous creations. We are very proud of our TGG2 girls but this massive project has been possible only thanks to your trust in us. So once again Raging friends, thanks again and have a wonderful 2016 year.
Just a quick question: why would you prime with teflon? Wouldn't that be like... an anti-primer?
It seems like a great way of making your model slick and non-stick, which I would normally assume is a terrible quality for a model to have before painting.
Ahh, thanks, that does indeed make sense. it also explains why the basing seemed so rough on those figures (since they are going to be removed from the bases for mold making).
I don't pay attention to KS deadlines, since it seems few creators do. I just ordered a bunch of Sisters characters for use as RPG characters, and they'll arrive whenever they arrive.
Alpharius wrote: I don't think the Pledge Manager for this campaign has even launched yet, has it?
In the New Years update they stated they wanted all the freebies done before launching the pledge manager. They are still working on Sister Ardanna. Unfortunately there is no 3D model even yet for her.
Well, in all fairness, no one gets into KS anymore and not expect at least a 6 months delay. So let's move those goalposts to September 2016.
Even that seems incredibly optimistic. And when do we consider the line crossed? They did stipulate that as soon as minis are available, if you want to cash out, you can. So that makes for a very fluid definition of "Mission Accomplished."
(Note: Some email providers truncate the end of long messages, so please be aware that this Update ends with a Special Deal).
Firstly, thank you for all the positive comments on the last update: not knowing which miniatures to choose because they’re all so awesome is exactly the kind of problem we like to create :-)
We’ve got some important info for you, so let’s get started.
Things are moving along swiftly, and a first wave of shipments should happen as early as April. This means that the Pledge Manager will soon be live!!! For more details, keep right on reading.
Indeed, in terms of sculpting, we are nearly there: •All of the Freebie models are sculpted, printed and cast, except for Xarsiss who is already at the foundry and ready for casting, and Ardanna who is about to leave for 3D printing and will be shown in our next Update; •Almost all of the Heroines are sculpted and many are ready for 3D printing or casting; •Work on the Troops is greatly accelerating (see details below), with the sculpting of up to 75% finished before the end of March and the remaining ones in April!
That being said, when this Kickstarter began, we were hoping to deliver at the end of March, but sadly, it will not happen this month, although you can expect the first wave to start shipping in April!
We wish there hadn’t been any delays, but there were. We hate letting you down and we owe you an apology. From the bottom of our heart, please know that we are sorry, and that we are tirelessly working to catch up.
As you know, we're constantly obsessed with the quality of the minis you will receive, and that's what these delays have been about.
We went overseas twice for a total of over a month to visit the foundry and, together, improved and streamlined many processes. We also helped them recruit new staff, to better handle the TGG2 production. On their end, they completely upgraded their manufacturing processes to achieve an even higher quality level. We also recruited and trained more than 10 3D sculptors during this project, and only kept a few of the very best from that pool. We think that the result of this really shows in the quality of the sculpts, which we feel are even a step up from the TGG1 models.
Upcoming Renders
The next batch of renders are almost ready for processing, so you’ll be getting a massive slew of them in our update at the end of the month! I'd have liked to have shown them in this post, but creating them not only takes a lot of time, it also stops the rest of the work and we have to balance content for Updates with getting things finished. Since we’re so close to finishing the troops, we thought it was best to knuckle down, head for the finish line and give you a big Update next time!
I mentioned an Update at the end of this month? That’s right, and if you thought the last one was huge, wait till you see what’s coming… you'll be seeing renders for: •Dark Elves (F) - Halberdiers Command and Troops •Dark Elves (F) - Spearmen Command and Troops •Dark Elves (F) - Swordsmen Command and Troops •Dark Elves (F) - Crossbowmen Command and Troops •Lust Elves (SF) - Skinners Command and Troops •Lust Elves (F) - Flesh Eaters Command and Troops •Sisters of Eternal Mercy (SF) - Regular Command and Troops •Sisters of Eternal Mercy (SF) - Icariates Command and Troops •Sisters of The Orphanage (F) - Regular Command and Troops •Sisters of The Orphanage (F) - Angels Command and Troops
AND with many more Command and Troops to follow just a month after!
These have all come about so fast because the workflows we talked about before are picking up speed. The initial stages were the most delicate and took almost 3 months to setup, which was in part responsible for the delays. But now they’re in place, we are flying through the other steps!
The first units we worked on were the Dark Elf Halberdiers which, after a few tweaks, were finished super-fast and so I’ve managed to sneak a sample out to show you:
Pledge Manager
All of the progress mentioned above means that the Pledge Manager is almost ready to be released!!!
Just like with our previous Kickstarter, we chose to delay opening the Pledge Manager until we had as many renders as possible to show you when it opens.
The Pledge Manager will follow the same format as the previous one, which is basically a very intuitive and easy-to-use online shop. Here's a screen grab for the TGG KS Pledge Manager:
Please note that you WILL be able to add more funds directly into the Pledge Manager.
However, you WON’T be able to JUMP UP to a higher Pledge Level once the Pledge Manager has launched.
If you wish to jump to a higher pledge level, you need to do it as soon as possible: •Go to this page http://bit.ly/TGG2-Paypal and add the necessary funds to get to where you want to be. You don't need to pick a specific Pledge Level, just do the maths between what you've pledged and the Pledge Level you want to go to. •Then, send us an email at RagingHeroesTeam@gmail.com to tell us to which Pledge Level you are going to, and what your Kickstarter email address is, so that we can combine both pledges. •If you have an Early Bird, don’t worry - you can keep it and still jump to a higher Pledge Level without losing your bonus. If you need any help, send us a message at RagingHeroesTeam@gmail.com or via Kickstarter and we’ll get things sorted.
What's in the First Wave of Shipments?
Our goal is to ship a First Wave of TGG2 minis shortly after the Pledge Manager closes.
This will include •All the Freebies (these are available to Lieutenant Box Pledges and higher) •Many Heroines (a precise list to come with the Pledge Manager) •Several Troops/Command (list to come with the Pledge Manager too)
The foundry has already begun casting most of those.
Here are photos of casts and new prototypes that we are regularly receiving from the foundry.
Feeling Left Out?
We're working hard to make the best minis of the galaxy, and perhaps there are those of you who would like to hear from us more often. And yet, preparing Updates is a much longer and challenging endeavour than anyone could imagine, so we can't always do them as often as we'd all like :(
Nevertheless, we've got your back and you're in good hands with this project. So whenever you have questions / concerns / comments / or even kudos about the TGG2 project, get in touch directly!
Just type into our Live Chat window at http://www.ragingheroes.com, or send us an email at RagingHeroesTeam@gmail.com ora message via Kickstarter. In virtually all cases, we respond in less than 24 hours during the working week.
Tobias Is Out There…
----- Tobias has nuclear potential as a weapon of war. Look at what rabbits did to US (dust bowl / great depression) and what rabbits have done and are doing to Australia. Rabbits breed quickly. Millions of them can wipe out a nation’s food supply. Winged rabbits are much more difficult to contain and can attack on different fronts. Tobias is by far the most deadly bioweapon every produced ----- ... message ends with the sound of glass smashing, followed by a high pitched squealing, the patter of small furry feet and then… silence -----
This was a recording we were asked to collect at midnight from a nearby phone box. It is from a mysterious stranger, referred to only as Bill (and which was later re-copied on the TGG2 message thread by said Bill).
We thought it might be important to share this with you and if you unleash Tobias on your collection, we can’t be held responsible for the consequences...
And a Special Deal Just for You…
Like all the best acts… we like to end with an encore, so how about a backer-only discount code as a small token of our appreciation to you, our backers!
DISCOUNT CODE: BestBackerEver10 But hurry, this offer expires next Friday March 11.
This code gives you 10% off across our entire store, including on our latest releases, such as the uber-popular Nepharya!
To use it, simply visit our webshop as normal and enter the code in the Discount box during checkout.
That’s all for now, thanks for reading and brace yourself for the next update; it will be another render-heavy one!
If you haven’t already, why not like us on Facebook for other news and events...
Guess its time to bump up my pledge. Undecided if I should go to Captain or Major level, which depends on whether I want the avatar and spider mother models or not.
I think I'll just leave my pledge at Commander rather than upgrading to Captain. It's only a $10 savings in the grand scheme of things, and I'll have more money when the pledge manager opens than I do now.
The artbook won't be released until all miniatures are up for sale, which may take some time, as they only go up for sale when they're all painted up by their artist of choice and have boxes and whatnot.
Is their idea of game development also permanently dead? Their new motto seems a bit defeatist, if you ask me. Sure, everyone *is* using them as proxies... but that forever makes you dependent on others for your minis to have any appeal as an army, rather than set pieces.
Speaking of set pieces, I wonder what Jah Joshua thinks of the minis.
Every model from the first KS is done, they are now slowly integrated into their on-line store, a few releases at a time as they wait for painted minis to show up that they can use for box / blister card art.
Once those are all done they'll be integrated into the art book, IIRC. At the current rate, two or so boxed sets and a few blisters per release wave, it should all be up for sale around the end of the year at the latest.
With Ardanna now finished, we now have 52 out of 63 Heroines whose sculpting is complete! And out of the remaining 11, the majority are almost done.
Furthermore, you probably also know that Sister Ardanna was the last remaining Freebie to be sculpted.
This is very good news, because it now means that all the Freebies are now done, and they will be included in with your first TGG2 shipment, if you're at Lieutenant Box Pledge Level or above!
In our eyes, this set of 16 TGG2 Freebies is really special. Indeed, the fact that a mini is also a Freebie does not translate into a quick and dirty job. On the contrary, we designed and crafted each Freebie with the same loving attention as any other sculpts of this Kickstarter. In fact, we think that characters like Sister Ardanna, Lady Melith, or Xarsiss, are among the very strong characters of the TGG line.
And as you know, we are currently working on a TGG game, and the Freebies will be as important as the other characters in the gameplay!
Upcoming Renders
Earlier today, on the Comments thread, Lwarren posted this:
"How funny would it be if they update later today (April fools day), with 150 broken links to pictures, complete with descriptions of how awesome the models we can't see are. Now that would be a good prank "
That could have been tempting... If a tiny bit sadistic... However, while, in the last Update, we told you that we should have a lot of renders of the Troops for you in this Update, as it turned out, our new Troops workflow actually got in the way.
But in a good way, though.
Usually, what we do is that we make a sculpt, then we do a 3D render that we share with you in Updates. Then and only then, after you've seen it, do we prepare the 3D sculpt for 3D printing. This means that the sculpts go to the 3D printer 2 to 4 weeks AFTER you've seen the render.
But our Troops workflow is so radical that the 3D print preparation is now incorporated directly into the sculpting process. So that means that the renders that we will be showing you now come in the very last stage.
This means that, unfortunately, the renders have been slightly delayed. But looking at where we're at today, we should be showing you a first series of Troops renders them later next week. And another good chunk of Troops renders just a few days after that, even though renders are so time-consuming to create and prepare.
AND the very good news is that when you see those renders, it will mean that the sculpts will already be in the 3D printing queue at the 3D printer shop!
So, while we all wait for those Troops renders, I thought that you might have a use for these cool DE and Fantasy Sisters wallpapers.
Shipping and the Pledge Manager
Speaking of the Pledge Manager, this may seem surprising, but setting up an effective Pledge Manager platform is an incredibly complex task because the various logistical needs it has to address are unusual, and simple off-the-shelf solutions don't actually exist. So we have to twist and tweak what does exist to achieve our ends.
We were pretty happy with the system we had for TGG1. And yet, it required a massive amount of manual and non-automated work, and you can bet that we'd rather spend it on creating gorgeous minis and new projects instead. So for TGG2, we've been working on making the new Pledge Manager more efficient.
Yet right now, we still have problems setting up the shipping exactly as we had planned. As you know, we did not collect the shipping fees during the Kickstarter, because we wanted to use a weight-based system and the option for you to get as many shipments as you wanted as often as you wanted.
So, we still have to collect your shipping costs. But after very long conversations, back and forth, and lots of hair pulling with various commercial platforms we've been working with, it appears that something that looks so simple is in fact hindered by many technical considerations for which, at this point in time, there are no workarounds. In this digital age, it seems rather crazy that this cannot be done but, right now, this is where we're at.
So, unless there's a breakthrough with one of our vendors, we may have to devise another approach for shipping than what we originally had in mind.
To make up for this, I am studying the possibility of getting you 2 shipments for the price of one. This way, you'd be able to quickly get your hands on all the Freebies together with everything else that's already available in Wave 1, and you'd get a second shipment when the rest of your Rewards Selection is ready.
And of course, I would try and include an option to add more shipments later if that's what you'd want.
So that's where I'm at right now. There's still a bit of smoke coming out of my ears, but the doctor said it should get better in time... I'll be able to share more in the next Update.
In case you missed it, there is more info on the Pledge Manager in Update #35.
Casts and Stocks
Sprinkled throughout this Update are the latest production casts that we received from the foundry.
Indeed, while we are working like crazy to finish the sculpts, the foundry is not slacking off either, and the team is committed to produce as many models as possible with Wave 1. We've already received massive boxes full of minis. Most of them are already stacked on our shelves patiently waiting for the next step.
For example, as soon as we have received all the Freebies, we'll gather the whole team and have a beer and pizza (well, this being France, it might be wine and cheese) packing week-end to put together all 16 Freebie models in over 2500 individual little plastic bags.
We had a banker visit our stock room last week, and he very innocently asked where our minis where packaged before shipment. We could not decide if he were impressed or thought us crazy when we told him it was done in our offices, and not by little hands in faraway countries... But you won't be surprised when we tell you that one of the reasons why we do this ourselves is also because it gives us one more chance to quality control the minis before they get into your hands.
And here's the beautiful Manticore we talk to you about, now in its cast version
Wish Nope and Beedle could help out with the packing, too...
Base size and shape
This question was posted on the Comments thread by Jonathan Holt:
"It will be unfortunate if these models don't fit on 20mm square bases. LnR said that these models are supposed to be proxies for different games but when the models don't fit for the more obvious choices for games to proxy (KoW/WH)...that is a problem. I am obviously speaking from the Fantasy side of things. These may work fine for Warpath/40k."
I was going to prepare a reply for this, but John Wolf jumped in and did it extremely well, so it made more sense to simply quote him:
John Wolf: "You are thinking about the numbers wrong. A 20mm square base is only smaller then a 25mm round base when compared to the 20mm side. The diagonal is a pinch over 28mm. The problem with basing on squares is not whether the feet will fit, but how the arms and weapons interact. One way to limit this is by making something similar to the 80mm x 20mm bases GW made (for four models a cross). The models can still mess with the placement in front of and behind them but each rank is uniform. You still use single bases in the last rank, to make "change" as your troops are taken off (Yes, you will be removing models... If you don't want your troops to die, you shouldn't be playing war...)"
I would also add that by doing what John Wolf talks about and putting them in a line-up on a larger base, you get the best possible effect of what we're trying to do, which is to aim at making each unit look like a small diorama.
(update also has 'new releases from the webstore for TTG1 mins and discount codes so have a look if you're thinking of shopping)
As a rule, was there little overlap in pledgers from the previous campaign, or did people just pledge with a cooler head?
I think people pledged with cooler heads this time around. I didn't pledge fore the first one, but having seen everything that went on with thew delays, I pledged for this one knowing it would be at least a year over the estimate.
Pledged for both TGG 1 and 2. Did invest a lot less than the first, though, so I'm not in a hurry.
The fact I took the pledge for TGG 2 for something else than a GW proxy army is also helping.
Otherwise, when you see the actual prices for retail and the price you paid for TGG 1 in the highest pledges, well...it's really worth it. And since the quality is real...
It does seem to be going faster... or we're a lot older and times just flies by.
I don't think we've seen many troops, yet, and that is where the first KS was meh, imho. The heroines, very happy. They have character and a nice flow, but the troops were a bit disappointing in execution (bits being too chunky, mostly)
I have not counted this but they always boast with x-numbers of character Models designed.
If you would add all the unit models to that which have not been finished, the %of finished models would be something like 30%.
Which means this project needs another year for completion
Original shipping date was March bye the way!
I dont mind the heels, the less than GW boob plate isn't bad at all. Would love the hooded heads for my own sisters. Have to say the only thing i see as BAD are the helmets. Not sure whats going on there but i'm not a fan.
I actually really love the helmets. They look gothic, extravagant, and remorseless. Then again, I've always been a fan of headgear that looks nothing like a face.
I got into this Kickstarter for mostly Slaaneshi daemons, but the SoB are looking really good. I'm also a huge fan of the comedically swooshy cloth pieces. It's Fabio syndrome where convenient dramatic wind is always flowing.
I just don't see how the helmets would allow them to actually see anything, looks like the fantasy helms are much the same way, so no auto senses. Good news is they come with both, so I am okay with that part.
Actually starting to think the fantasy girls might be a good counts as Sigmarites for AoS.
dracpanzer wrote: I just don't see how the helmets would allow them to actually see anything.
They're SciFi helmets from a bunch of people wearing mini-cathedrals on their back. 'Rule of Cool' definitely applies here. Also something something blind faith.
Am I the only one in the world that likes faceless helmets?
There's a reason that this Dark Eldar helmet is a rather popular bit, and nobody has ever really questioned those:
There's a reason that this Dark Eldar helmet is a rather popular bit, and nobody has ever really questioned those:
Spoiler:
Like I said, the eyeless helm might make sense in the sci-fi setting where you would expect some sort of auto senses or some form of transparency. That works fine for your dark eldar example. The fantasy sisters having the same helmet with far less technology (I'm assuming) makes a lot less sense to me.
Its a personal thing, you like it and I don't. The good news is that the set comes with both. I guess that's what eBay is for. I might actually get some of the fantasy sisters as a counts as sigmarite army for AoS. They are a lot better than I had expected. I really want some of those hooded heads to spice up my celestial squads.
Edit: Just took a better look at the fantasy girls, the helms do have eye slots, all good news!
I actually like many of their design, it's the poses that make me sort of hate them. They all have butts, tits or hips sticking out, no matter what they're doing, and look more like super models posing than actual soldiers.
Mymearan wrote: I actually like many of their design, it's the poses that make me sort of hate them. They all have butts, tits or hips sticking out, no matter what they're doing, and look more like super models posing than actual soldiers.
That is sorta RH's whole aesthetic and goal. so ...mission achieved right?
By now, you know the drill: 24 images for this new Unit, make sure all of them are in your email message, we begin with 2 line-ups (Command Group and Troops), and this Update ends with our Flash Sale (yes, it's still on!).
Poses are expectedly extravagant and awesome. I just wish the wings had an angelic option like the Fantasy minis or a cloth option like the freebie. Chunky stone wings look weird.
Absolutionis wrote: Poses are expectedly extravagant and awesome. I just wish the wings had an angelic option like the Fantasy minis or a cloth option like the freebie. Chunky stone wings look weird.
I wonder if Dark Eldar Scourges wings would work on these models? Either the bat or feathered wings would look really, really cool.
I thought they said the Pledge Manager was incoming? Doesn't this wave of renders imply they're pretty deep into the process? Any hope at all of them filling the "troop" parts of this Kickstarter by the end of summer?
Bit of a scrim on the KS page over the change of the Not-Sisters of Battle from wearing boots to high heels. For my part i'm going with the 'anti' faction, for two reasons;
First, when they were actually asking for money, the renders and concept art all had the not-Sisters in boots. Switching from boots to heels so far from feedback may satisfy their retifism, but it seems scarcely appropriate.
Second, and there really is no other way to put this, they did a crap job in some very notable ways;
Spoiler:
Seriously, that's just bad sculpting. Not only are the feet and ankles contorted into unnatural and downright improbably/impossible positions, but armor plates are bending and angling in ways that don't speak of fantasy materials or powered armor but laziness. That's what happens when you just grab a 3D model and move things without caring about what it's supposed to be. It resembles nothing so much as how armor works in older MMOs like WoW: armor isn't an actual texture in man cases, it's simply painted onto the character model. So steel plates flex (and bounce and jiggle) like they have no weight, because they don't.
Damn. I would be super pissed if I had pledged for those. The feet in the renders on the KS page looks like actual feet with armor, these look like mutilated cow feet in magical bendy armour.
I wanted a few nuns, but I'm mostly cherry picking for skirmish stuff anyways (and a bit more character focused) but I can still understand the distaste in the new designs.
A reply has been sent, which (in typical fashion) takes a whole lot of words to say very little;
Spoiler:
We received several messages concerning our sisters' heels and since they all asked more or less the same questions, we thought it simpler to come up with a general answer that would cover what you asked us and maybe a bit more. We are not including this in our regular Updates because those are long enough as it is (and people often complain about our walls of text) and we did not want to bother backers (like Lust Elves and Dark Elves fans, for example) who would not feel concerned about this. So please grab a tea or coffee, and dive in:
First, I am really sorry that you feel disappointed by the high heels on our Sisters, and I understand that you would prefer another style of footwear.
Probably like you, I have bought tons of miniatures and have looked at tons of press releases showing sculpts that I would love to be slightly different. Just a small change would have made a big difference for me. So I totally get your point.
So let me give you a bit more info about what we do, why we do it, what's really going on, and what we might have missed.
Running a project as big as TGG2 is a massive undertaking with more than 3000 backers involved and as much as our intention are good and we try to please everybody, it is inevitable that at one point, we'll come up with something that some people don't like. In fact, it can be anything that we do. Some people will say that our miniatures are too sexy. Others will complain that they should more sexy (this happened during TGG1 and on many other occasions). Some will love the design of this sword or that weapon, and others will hate it.
As much as we would like to please every single one of our backers, this is sadly a totally impossible task. From the very beginning of Raging Heroes, we've been developing very strong and personal aesthetics in the way we dress and pose our characters. We understand that these choices cannot fit everyone's tastes, but at the same time, they are what has made Raging Heroes the distinctive and successful brand that it is.
Like we explained on many occasions, the images we show at the launch of the campaign, whether they be sculpts or concepts, are always work-in-progress. As much as we strive to stay true to those concepts, we also always try to improve them. And we've been frequently named as one of the only company that is able to deliver sculpts that are an improvement on our concepts.
Of course, once again, an improvement is a subjective thing. And some changes cannot always please everybody.
When we create creatures like the Draahks that somehow follow the commonly accepted archetype of Dark Elves riding some sort of dinosaurs, we take a big risk in offering a new take that is nevertheless fairly different from the usual raptor-like creatures. A lot of people might not like that look. And even if we show a preview of that in the concepts, in the end, the sculpts end up being fairly different from the originals shown in the campaign, and that is because we keep on refining the design of the armies and adapting it to the 30mm scale. Since I'm the one inspiring and supervising these creations, I may find (like was the case with the Draahks), that the concept artist has done a great job, but that we could push it further at the sculpting stage. So at every stage of the process, we run the risk of creating something that a few (or a lot) people might not like.
But I have to do this because my job is to make sure that the Raging Heroes aesthetics and the coherence of each of our armies is preserved throughout the whole creation process. Of course, the changes we make are entirely subjective, but from our experience, they always turn out into something that people like more than the concepts.
However, on some occasion, some details or parts of a design generate a strong reaction, both for and against, from the people who follow our work, be they backers, regular customers or miniature enthusiasts who simply look and comment on new releases. This is the case with what is happening with the Sisters' heels right now.
Contrary to what some comments might make you think, we received a massive onslaught of positive messages these last few days, especially regarding the Sisters. So, I feel a bit at a loss to know how to answer you.
The vast majority of the backers love everything about the Sisters, including their heels. And I can say that these troops have probably been the most popular of all the troops (albeit being also the ones generating the most upheaval) we have shown until now in TGG2.
So, even if I understand that some people may be put off by this look and some are being very vocal about it, I cannot change it when the majority of the backers like them that way.
Please understand that I am not trying to put down what you feel about them by sharing with you these informations. I'm just trying to give you a little bit more perspective and understanding of what's going on and why we do what we do, in the hope that it will help you look at the Sisters in a different way.
To be honest, we were very surprised by these strong reactions.
The truth is that high-heeled characters have been a typical RH thing from the start, and it also happens that, while sometimes generating controversy, these characters have always been the ones people like the most: The Kurganova Sisters, Asharah, The Blood Vestals (scifi and fantasy), Mad Nurse Bernadette...
But more than that, TGG2 Sisters' characters like Celenia, Reyallia, Altarii, Arthenia, and the Daughters of the Crucible all have high heels and we haven't received A SINGLE complaint about them.
Even more so, Celenia, Reyallia and Altarii have armours and general outlook that are very similar to the Regulars and Icariates' look since they are meant to be heroines of these units. They have been created like the template of these troops.
So we understand why some of you prefer more heavy looking, no-heels, army boots, we really do, but still, this is odd...
So we wondered “could there be something else that have made you feel something was wrong with the Sisters Troops and Icariates? A thing that transformed a design that everybody seems to be fine with into something that strongly irritated some people?”
Well, the answer seems quite obvious. And it's an easy fix.
Ok, we don't mean it solves the whole like/dislike issue, but we think it will make a big difference.
It is true that some of these models have a strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, accentuating the feeling that the heels look impractical and not warrior-like.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
The Fantasy Angels update that we are posting today won't have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we'll show you the change soon.
And finally, please remember that very few miniature companies ever show their sculpts or renders in such large images as we do. What you see here on a full-size image looks more like a movie poster than a regular small photograph of a miniature. These heels will look very differently when your miniature is based, and on the table. They will virtually disappear from view and, if you want to, by filling the gap between the heel and the sole, they'll look nearly non-existent. We know for sure, because we often had the opposite problem when we based our own models and tried to preserve the heels look.
Now, there is something else we need to address.
Many queries and complaints about the heels issue were perfectly fine and concerns were expressed in the most constructive way. And we are happy to address them as deeply as we can.
But some of the comments we read or messages we received used adjectives like “silly, ugly, stupid” in a very dismissive manner and this is something that nobody responds well to.
If we were the ones using these words, everybody would rightly find us offensive.
You might find us a bit old school (we are fine with that) but such speech is disrespectful and rude, both to a team that works VERY hard, and to the other backers who may or do disagree with what is being said. It's all quite unfortunate, and does not help any cause: it's hard for opposite opinions to come and work together when such words and attitude are tossed around.
We find that nothing constructive can come out of this kind of interactions and this is something we cannot condone. We don't want you, or any other Loud'n Raging backer, or the people who work with us on this, to have to deal with that kind of bad vibe.
On our end, we are sorry that it took us several days to answer your questions, but these last few days have been truly hectic and we wanted to examine the issue carefully and calmly before giving you a detailed answer.
Once again, we are truly sorry if this message does not bring you the exact solution you were hoping for, but I hope that this long message has helped you understand the things that we do, and the changes that will be made.
Benoit Guerville
Art Director
PS: One last little thing, talk about serendipity...... Oddly enough, I stumbled on this today... Take a look at John Blanche's illustration on the first Games Workshop's Battle Sisters' codex. This is the very first Battle Sisters illustration they ever made if I'm correct. Look at this foot on the skull... Life is odd
Jimsolo (Collegium reject) just now
As a side note, the John Blanche illustration that is referenced in the email is exactly the sort of hypersexual, chicks-with-guns fetishism that drove so many backers to choose Raging Heroes over Games Workshop in the first place. If you can draw strong parallels between that image and the newest renders, I think that's a very good sign that the artists might need to do a little reworking of the models.
The sad part of it is, they've managed to entirely live down to my expectations. In the first KS, I pledged about $300. As one may note from my signature line, I had some problems with how they ran their campaign, not least of which was their constantly shifting rationale for changes made and impenetrability to suggestion. I ended up with a variety of heroes and a marked caution towards the company.
This campaign: $15. Looks like I made the right choice. It's a sorry situation where I can drop my pledge amount by 95% and have no regrets, but then again, buried in that long, self-congratulatory email they pretty much reserve the right to change whatever they want, whenever they want.
By the way, it's worth pointing out that in the previous campaign, a large number (I would say the majority, but don't hold me to that) of figures are far more interesting precisely for their lack of high heels. This temptation to put everything and everyone in stripper heels is a marked change from the first campaign, and not a positive one. That's what really makes it so irritating: they could be a great miniature company if only they could restrain themselves.
Interesting, apparently RH is now refusing to honor requests for refunds;
Saga Wälivaara about 1 hour ago
My request to be refunded was denied and I was left with this.
"However, our Financial Department suggests that we wait until all our sculpts are finished, in order to see if some miniatures can meet your expectations. If not, then they will be discussing the refund at this time."
Just have to wait it out then.
First, this does not strike me as something that RH could maintain if someone really wanted to push the issue. If you pledged for X, and then X (as you pledged for it) is not going to be made, you have the right to a refund. It is not incumbent on the backer to instead settle for Y or Z.
Second, I wonder, if all of the people that were expecting sisters and are unhappy demanded a refund, I seriously doubt that RH could actually fulfill them. One can't help but notice the proliferation of sales enhancements that RH has been engaging in recently: their last update continued their "Flash sale" (it's now less a flash and more a lingering glow, I suppose), and their 'deal' tab on their website is... extensive. It's worth pointing out that, even on sale, their stuff is really expensive. I mean, substantially more expensive then Infinity expensive.
*My response from the comments;
Spoiler:
@Saga Wälivaara: Just to be clear, you wanted a refund because they're not producing X, they knowledge that they are not producing X, but they are refusing to refund you and demanding you instead accept Y and Z?
If that is the case, then it really comes down to whether your pledge was completely motivated by the sisters troopers. If so, then it's not unreasonable to point out that they are simply not going to make what you pledged for (the difference between soldier and stripper aesthetic is a material alteration), and you may wish to contact the financial institution that you used to pay your pledge.
For most people that is going to be your credit card company or your bank. This is not a new issue, even for kickstarter; it's no different then having a contract for groceries. If you arraign a contract for 100 kilos of apples, and are then told (a year later) that you can't have apples, but apple sauce, grapes or pineapples, then the other side is in breach of contract.
That's why I'm asking if it's ONLY the (now) stripper-ified troops that you pledged for, because while you may be able to get your money back, it's pretty likely that's all you're getting back. It's lousy position for RH to put you guys in, and I'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Like I said, I learned this last campaign and it meant $300 to $15, you guys are learning it now.
Really expensive and horrendously niche in application in the case of some of their sets.
I made the mistake of buying three boxes of their KST troops and one command box to crank out a twenty strong infantry squad. The models of their first KS are not suited for building entire armies like advertised, not unless you like duplicate poses with a lot of "unique" snowflake parts, which in my case meant way too many overly dynamic running legs and nowhere near enough arms holding the common rifle in both hands. In hindsight, as lovely as the models are, even with the discounts I've been given, it would've been cheaper to get the official twenty model squad from Forge World instead.
It's a good thing they're having so many sales these days, as I do still buy the odd mini from them from time to time, but no longer for the purposes of building entire squads.
I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'
Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.
aku-chan wrote: I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'
Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.
I think the one thing everyone should take away from this is:
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
They ARE reacting to the criticism, and they're even explaining why they changed from boots to high heels.
What they're asking you to do is wait for the final designs. Yes, they will be wearing high heels, but they will look better than on the current renders. They've already said so, although they added a LOT of explaination to it.
The issue is that some people just flat out don't want high heels (pun intended). I get that, but I would still wait to see the updated version before making any final decision. The changes may mitigate it enough for some people. I, personally, don't care if there are high heels or not.
Buzzsaw wrote: It's worth pointing out that, even on sale, their stuff is really expensive. I mean, substantially more expensive then Infinity expensive.
I'm not buying RH because they're cheaper than GW, I'm buying them because I prefer the sculpts over GW. Victoria Lamb is also much more expensive than GW - a simple infantry squad is $50, two boxes of Raging Heroes Iron Storm troops are basically the same price. GWs Cadians are $30 but of a MUCH lower quality.
Sisters, on the other hand - well. GWs price is just cray-cray for an absolutely substandard product. They're seriously asking for $80 for a squad of 10 ancient, low-quality and utterly non-customizable metal miniatures. And for that you're not even getting all the Special Weapons you need, no no - you'll have to shell out another $14 for any heavy weapon or $9.50 for any special weapon you might want to add to that one melta and two stormbolters.
And that's not even taking into account that you might want to build Retributors or Dominion Squads.
2 Squads of Retributors? That's $137 if you go the cheap route of grabbing a 3-pack of regular sisters as the Sister Superiors.
You get a whole army of Sisters for that price through the KS.
aku-chan wrote: I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'
Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.
I think the one thing everyone should take away from this is:
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
They ARE reacting to the criticism, and they're even explaining why they changed from boots to high heels.
What they're asking you to do is wait for the final designs. Yes, they will be wearing high heels, but they will look better than on the current renders. They've already said so, although they added a LOT of explaination to it.
With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...
In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.
The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.
By the by, it's also worth pointing out that the 'explanation' (which I include in its entirety in an above comment) adds a lot of words, but the actual explanation boils down to 'because we felt like it'.
EDIT; found my post with the terrible sculpting that they are now going to fix (and it is terrible).
Buzzsaw wrote: Bit of a scrim on the KS page over the change of the Not-Sisters of Battle from wearing boots to high heels. For my part i'm going with the 'anti' faction, for two reasons;
First, when they were actually asking for money, the renders and concept art all had the not-Sisters in boots. Switching from boots to heels so far from feedback may satisfy their retifism, but it seems scarcely appropriate.
Second, and there really is no other way to put this, they did a crap job in some very notable ways;
Spoiler:
Seriously, that's just bad sculpting. Not only are the feet and ankles contorted into unnatural and downright improbably/impossible positions, but armor plates are bending and angling in ways that don't speak of fantasy materials or powered armor but laziness. That's what happens when you just grab a 3D model and move things without caring about what it's supposed to be. It resembles nothing so much as how armor works in older MMOs like WoW: armor isn't an actual texture in man cases, it's simply painted onto the character model. So steel plates flex (and bounce and jiggle) like they have no weight, because they don't.
With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...
In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.
The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.
Not at all. If they promised us plastic models and delivered a simple block of plastic your analogy would work, but you're completely exaggerating the change they did.
If you don't accept High Heels that's a different matter, agreed. But many of the models already showed them, and RH is known using that style for their products. It sucks for you, but they did explain their reasoning - to have the style consistent across the army. You don't have any legal right to a refund, the product will be mostly what was presented as early designs. one detail is not enough to say "this is a completely different product".
That being said I would hope they'll allow refunds once they had the chance to present the sculpts the way they want to finalize them, without the problems from the rendering mistakes. That would be fair and square, and they also get a fair shot at convincing you to stay onboard. Not you as a person - as you're so adamant about not wanting high heels - but backers in general, of course.
With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...
In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.
The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.
Not at all. If they promised us plastic models and delivered a simple block of plastic your analogy would work, but you're completely exaggerating the change they did.
If you don't accept High Heels that's a different matter, agreed. But many of the models already showed them, and RH is known using that style for their products. It sucks for you, but they did explain their reasoning - to have the style consistent across the army. You don't have any legal right to a refund, the product will be mostly what was presented as early designs. one detail is not enough to say "this is a completely different product".
That being said I would hope they'll allow refunds once they had the chance to present the sculpts the way they want to finalize them, without the problems from the rendering mistakes. That would be fair and square, and they also get a fair shot at convincing you to stay onboard. Not you as a person - as you're so adamant about not wanting high heels - but backers in general, of course.
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
The better course of action is through people's payment methods: credit cards and banks. This particular action is about as close to a bait and switch as one is likely to find, as should be easily remedied if RH continues to be intransigent.
As for "they did explain their reasoning", it's largely irrelevant. This wasn't a change motivated by exigency, but a conscious decision to not supply the product ordered and instead supply a different product. As I pointed out above, applesauce and apples are both fundamentally similar and yet distinct, so it also is that a figure costumed in boots and uniform is fundamentally similar and yet distinct from a figure costumed in the 'sexy Halloween' version of a uniform complete with stripper heels.
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
I would argue that the apples to applesauce analogy is a poor one, as those are functionally different items. A better one would be if Honeycrisp apples had been replaced by Red Delicious.
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.
The big problem, of course, with the arguments that people have been making about how this 'unifies the aesthtic', is that... this change actually completely upends the existing aesthetic that RH had going for them, and replaces it with a simplistic aesthetic of 'high heels = sexy', 'sexy = good', therefore 'high heels = good'.
Or, as I put it in the comments;
Spoiler:
@DeSteele: Yeah, you make a good point that I had been thinking about in the back of my head. The simple fact is that the more one thinks about Benoit's reasoning, the less sense it actually makes.
Raging Heroes now makes 4 human armies (5 if you count fantasy separately): Iron Empire, Jailbirds and Kurganovas from their first campaign, and Sisters from this one. All of the first campaign troopers are wearing boots (I looked and could not find any troop boxes in heels, except the mech zombies, which I don't count as 'human'). All of the troops.
Now, we come to the sisters, and while they were shown wearing boots, now, for some reason, they're in heels.
This isn't just aesthetically displeasing, going from soldier uniform to 'sexy Halloween costume' soldier uniform, it now actually breaks the aesthetic of their 'universe'. Previously, in the Raging Heroes universe (remember, they have for years claimed they were making a game world for this), humans wore 'normal' clothes and boots to war, except for the crazy standout characters where it was a part of their character. Elves, on the other hand, always wore crazy heels, as a way of differentiating them from humans.
Now, that aesthetic is broken down, You have three lines of human troops that look like they inhabit one universe, and the sisters, who look like they inhabit a fetish parody of the same universe. The more thought one gives to this, the less sense it actually ends up making.
Now, while that is a problem with the aesthetics, let's be honest (as Benoit actually has been) and concede that these are not being bought to be used in RH's eternally 'coming soon' game system, they're being bought to be used as Sisters of Battle. This creates a very different problem, as my understanding is that RH's sisters were considered one of the more 'popular' offerings, so let's play a little with numbers.
Let's assume that the Sisters were not a prohibitive favorite, but substantially more then the alternatives, say 40% of backers were in this for not-SoB.
There is a poll that has been run by someone in the comments about Heels/Boots, and the poll tilts to Boots, but let's be generous and call it a 50/50 split (so 20% of total backers on either side).
Now, of those that prefer boots, some will undoubtedly either be okay with the changes, or willing to spend their pledge money on other things. Let's again say 50%.
So, while admitting that all of the above is speculative, let's imagine that 10% of total backers are what we might term hard core SoB players looking for not-SoBs. As I'm sure many of us are familiar with SoB players, when it comes to the nuns, they can be... less then easygoing.
If that's the problem that is blowing up in slow motion in their inbox, no wonder they are taking their 'phone off the hook', so to speak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: I would argue that the apples to applesauce analogy is a poor one, as those are functionally different items. A better one would be if Honeycrisp apples had been replaced by Red Delicious.
That would be fine too. In Frigalament the difference was between frying and stewing chickens. There are any number of possible analogies, The important bit is that, contrary to what was claimed, there is no simple test for what differences are material and what are not. I content (with fair confidence) that to a non-trivial number of SoB players that bought into this for non-GWSoB figures, high heels are a material difference that makes these figures unsuitable.
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.
Oh, no - you're missing the point. I wasn't expressing contempt for the state or the law nor was I conceding a point. I was acknowledging that you think you have a point while expressing contempt for you - a person that claims that changing the footwear of a miniature is the same as throwing it in a blender, and at the same time claims higher authority by telling us his occupation in a really pompous way. How you being a lawyer makes you more qualified to judge whether or not a product is or isn't changed in a material way is beyond me, though. Don't courts usually call on actual experts for that type of judgment?
And that's even ignoring the whole "this is concept art, subject to change - be aware there are risks!" aspect which would probably have the whole case thrown out in a court - although THAT is probably something you're much better qualified to judge than I am. But then there's the whole "RH are French and I am German, so US laws are really irrelevant to me" thing, even if the US laws would ensure a refund for US customers.
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.
Oh, no - you're missing the point. I wasn't expressing contempt for the state or the law nor was I conceding a point. I was acknowledging that you think you have a point while expressing contempt for you - a person that claims that changing the footwear of a miniature is the same as throwing it in a blender, and at the same time claims higher authority by telling us his occupation in a really pompous way. How you being a lawyer makes you more qualified to judge whether or not a product is or isn't changed in a material way is beyond me, though. Don't courts usually call on actual experts for that type of judgment?
And that's even ignoring the whole "this is concept art, subject to change - be aware there are risks!" aspect which would probably have the whole case thrown out in a court - although THAT is probably something you're much better qualified to judge than I am. But then there's the whole "RH are French and I am German, so US laws are really irrelevant to me" thing, even if the US laws would ensure a refund for US customers.
Hmm, you're right, it is strange that someone would imagine being an attorney would confer some insight into the applicable laws or legal standards. I suppose we'll just have to relegate that question to the land of mystery... it is, as you've done, much better to speculate wildly while making baseless and incoherent assumptions. Trully, your theories about the legal island that is France are tantalizing, as are your ideas about expertise in miniature footwear. Perhaps you have a newsletter we could subscribe to?
Listen, you don't want to argue the law, that's fine. I've shared my professional opinion, you've shared your amateur opinion, let's leave it at that, shall we? Moving on.
The new update is out, and it features their take on Angels with dirty faces... oops, I mean stripper heels, half-a dozen of the other and all that.
I left some feedback there (long story short, nice figures, but really weird proportions in some areas), but the real thing that struck me overall is what BrookM mentioned: their figures are just so 'dynamic' that they end up really poorly done for making actual units. The angels especially don't look like a unit that you would want to ever have more then one of, because so many highly distinctive design elements would be so obvious when you have more then one.
There are angels ascending, angels descending, angels shoving forward a book, etc. They all look rather nice (with the noted exceptions), until you have more then one on the field. They really seem more painters miniatures or heroes then unit figures.
Which rather ties into one of the things I've observed about RH: they just don't know when to tone things down. Troopers should not be so distinctive, because you end up on detail overload.
It's a combination of having way more "special snowflake" poses and options than the boring old bread and butter options that may do it in over time. And yes, the inability to tone it down is a massive factor in all of this as well. It's an army so busy and full of character that well, it makes you lose focus of who are supposed to the heroes and who are supposed to the scrubs!
I'll keep it in spoilers, but people looking to build armies, or even squads using the Raging Heroes models, here's what it may end up looking like. I used the Kurganova regular infantry boxed sets and one command boxed set for these.
Spoiler:
My biggest problems with these infantry kits, in short:
- Way too many running legs
- Stationary legs are far too akimbo (this is even worse with the Jailbirds sets, who can't fit onto regular 28mm bases!)
- Not enough helmeted heads! (I want the boring helmeted heads, not the wild, wind in the hair heads! )
- Not enough arms holding a rifle in both hands, whether it is shooting or at ease, there are way too many gesturing arms, or ones holding grenades and demolition charges!
The last one is particularly damning. What I was hoping for was a unit of voidborn infantry that could neatly be ranked up into a cool firing line, but when I do that on the tabletop I'm stuck with a unit that seems to be in utter chaos and doing anything but firing.
Another problem people should look out for is this, pardon the crappy picture:
Spoiler:
RETURN OF THE CROOKED SPINES. All girls from those boxed sets (ditto with my box of Jailbirds and the many blisters of character sculpts I've bought) have a perky bum and quite a crooked back, so buyer beware, this may also very well happen with the sisters. I think we can safely assume that the elves, of both fantasy and scientific persuasion, already have these.
But....Brook....this is Raging heroes. I mean ...perky butts, bent spines and armor with cleavage.... isn't that their objective. Isn't their whole motif Pinup models in army gear. It seems odd to me for people to expect different. Even their "ugly characters" are worth taking home.
Much like if you bought a few set of Victorias female IG and angrily declared they all were much too sensibly proportioned and appropriately dressed. They are what they are designed to be.
BrookM wrote: I was expecting some perky bums and crooked backs, but not on almost all of them.
Sacré bleu! How dare you criticise such artiste's!
You sir, may see only sculpts, but they have created such beautiful art and you lack such ability to see it that you are not fit to comment! These are more than pigeon toes, broken backs and dislocated ankles! This is our new paradigm, where we interpret art from such classics like picasso and create them in miniature form!
Good! Good! Let the delicious Gifs flow. Blast their their special snowflake, delicate artistic sensibilities with the superheated air of criticism and snark.
prankster wrote: So, twice as many armies in half the time? I suspect it'll mostly be characters with a unit or two per faction, rather than the other way around.
Some predictions (in no particular order) Arbitrary funding level that they can blow through in minutes - $20-30k. Somewhat elastic stretch goals during the first period, whilst they drink wine and get around to posting them. Better communication, at least at first. Always reaching for another unlock, rather than stopping themselves from over promising Another entertaining Dania thread. Delays, resculpts and changes after the fact.
That said, if they have actually learnt things, much of the above may not come to pass. Either way, I'll probably back, at least for a dollar to get updates.
Well, can't say that backers weren't warned - quoting from the fifth post in this thread!
BrookM wrote: It's a combination of having way more "special snowflake" poses and options than the boring old bread and butter options that may do it in over time. And yes, the inability to tone it down is a massive factor in all of this as well. It's an army so busy and full of character that well, it makes you lose focus of who are supposed to the heroes and who are supposed to the scrubs!
I'll keep it in spoilers, but people looking to build armies, or even squads using the Raging Heroes models, here's what it may end up looking like. I used the Kurganova regular infantry boxed sets and one command boxed set for these.
Spoiler:
My biggest problems with these infantry kits, in short:
- Way too many running legs
- Stationary legs are far too akimbo (this is even worse with the Jailbirds sets, who can't fit onto regular 28mm bases!)
- Not enough helmeted heads! (I want the boring helmeted heads, not the wild, wind in the hair heads! )
- Not enough arms holding a rifle in both hands, whether it is shooting or at ease, there are way too many gesturing arms, or ones holding grenades and demolition charges!
The last one is particularly damning. What I was hoping for was a unit of voidborn infantry that could neatly be ranked up into a cool firing line, but when I do that on the tabletop I'm stuck with a unit that seems to be in utter chaos and doing anything but firing.
Another problem people should look out for is this, pardon the crappy picture:
Spoiler:
RETURN OF THE CROOKED SPINES. All girls from those boxed sets (ditto with my box of Jailbirds and the many blisters of character sculpts I've bought) have a perky bum and quite a crooked back, so buyer beware, this may also very well happen with the sisters. I think we can safely assume that the elves, of both fantasy and scientific persuasion, already have these.
That's exactly what I was talking about. Actually, overnight I was thinking about this, and it occured to me that the perfect analogy comes from an episode of the UK version of Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. If you're a fan of that series, one of the things that made it different form the USA version (which was mostly Ramsey shouting at incompetent chefs running terrible restraunts), is several of the episodes he actually liked the chefs and their problems came not from being bad cooks, but simply not knowing how to run a restrant as a business.
The specific episode I was thinking about is from season 2: La Riveira. It's one of the best examples of how the principle of 'less is more' can work sometimes.
Edit: To expand on that, the Chef at La Riveira is Luic, a hotshot young French (by coincidence) chef who has found a rich patron that allows him to explore all his culinary aspirations. The problem is, having never learned moderation, his dishes actually suffer for all their extravagance.
If I could sit Benoit down and explain what is going wrong with his vision, I would basically have him watch this episode. So much of what RH is putting out now is like the dishes Luic put on the table: brimming with good ideas, good execution and fine ingredients... but too many of them.
It's a lesser version of what Kingdom Death is still going through really: a creative mind not bound by someone putting the foot down and saying enough is enough already.
I honestly tell people to get the RH stuff for the characters, not for army building, as price aside, it is not a great way of doing it. People love ragging on the Cadian plastics for being ugly, but they do their job, that of being boring old rank and file troops you use to build squads, perfectly. You get one set of special weapons, one set of sergeant arms, one hand lobbing a grenade and the rest is all holding lasguns. The Kurganova kits I bought for this did not have one set of rifle toting arms that was firing or holding it sufficiently high enough to make it look like someone was firing, it's all "lobbing a frag!" here, "hauling a landmine" there and "may I tickle le moustache" in one case.
I'm actually curious, has a breakdown of the infantry kits been shown yet? Or is that still early days?
BrookM - While I think you have some good points, when you start saying Cadian plastics do anything "perfectly"... I think you've crossed the line
There's a reason there's such a market for alternate IG, and it's mostly that GW's IG (whether Cadians / Catachans / etc!) are pretty poor!
There's some nice sculpts to be had if you go through Forgeworld, etc... but it just makes it ripe for competitors.
Also, to you and Buzzsaw I just had a question - At least in Buzzsaw's case, since you didn't really back this project much I wonder why you continue to go after the RH folks - not saying they don't leave themselves really open to it, but it just feels a bit harsh. Especially with say that gif, that has continued to pop up throughout any RH discussion. It's funny as a meme, I'll grant you . But at some point I would think you'd say you disagree with their approach and move on...
Finally, just wanted to say I do find both of your analyses on things like this interesting - this is more a comment of motivation / what you're looking to get out of continuing to track them, since you're not really after the minis themselves this time around (again from Buzzsaw's comment of dropping his backing by 95% last page - not sure if you're in on this one heavily BrookM?).
He's not even in for a buck, he just comes here to feed on the angst.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whereas I pledged (boo! hiss!) to get the Daughters of the Crucible and those mega-armoured SoB. I expect Tarantino-levels of dynamism, attitude and heels from the former. I'll only ever field a full unit, max, so each can be individual and clearly identifiable as such.
From the latter, I do hope they won't be in KISS-sized heels, because, well, you know. I feel very sorry for those backers who wanted sensible boots and got heels and pigeon toes. I am very happy that I made my SoB army with Dreamforge Valkir instead, regardless of the price difference. Mine don't look like chicks, and that's perfect for me.
My own 5 cents, I'm not holding out for the RH game. It'l probably be very hero-centric, and troops will only act as support, and I just don't find them believable as combat heroes. Not that girls can't kick ass. They can.
I'm trying so hard to behave this time round to keep the vitriol in check! And aye, no pledge here this time around, as it became clear that the one mini I was interested in, Witchfinder Pointy-Shoes (There's also the not-Terminators, I was a bit weary of those, still am, can you imagine suits of tactical dreadnought armour with heels?), would not be unlocked during this campaign. However, I created this thread, so it keeps on popping up in my feed and as such, I keep checking in on it. If this is supposed to be a KS backers exclusive club, maybe put it in the forum charter? I kid of course, though if one of you guys does pop round, warn me in advance so I can put on the kettle and pull out our favourite paddling bat.
I will say this though, as shocking as it may sound to some of the veterans of the first rodeo: I still want them to succeed. I really, honestly do. I likequiteafewoftheirmodels. If I like a model enough that I missed out on during the KS, I will gladly buy it from their own store instead.
However, just because I want something to succeed does not mean that I'm going to keep my gob shut and not point out what bothers me about something like some people show with some companies out there.
Now, if my posts here are reported by others for whatever reason they deem, be it offensive or annoying, just say so and I'll stay out.
No no, the criticism is valid and fine - I was just curious about that . It's certainly not an exclusive club - I didn't back either, but then again I only check in here occasionally
I can certainly relate to wanting to track something even after not being directly involved in it, was just wondering!
I do feel bad for RH sometimes and think when we indulge in a bit of, for lack of a better term, "french-bashing" it might go a bit too far here. It's funny in a lot of ways (and there's plenty of similar "Murica" type jokes elsewhere) but might cloud some legitimate criticism at times.
Looking last page, the ankles really do seem unforgivable - and their explanation unsatisfactory - but it sounds like they might fix it. Seems totally required to me, so hopefully backers do push for that!
In the end I mostly don't follow this because I highly prefer realistic looking female minis, but just think RH might get the short end of the stick sometimes with their supporters not really posting here and so ending up being a bit of a punching bag on Dakka.
and actually i'd be happy with either big mechanical boots (which actually got a whole bunch of critisim when first shown) or combat heels although they'll change how I paint the minis up
(assuming they fix the bendy armour issue which they say they'll do)
and the exaggerated poses are one of the reasons I like their stuff
RiTides wrote:In the end I mostly don't follow this because I highly prefer realistic looking female minis, but just think RH might get the short end of the stick sometimes with their supporters not really posting here and so ending up being a bit of a punching bag on Dakka.
Dakka and a great deal of its members have been blacklisted for quite some time, or at least until the second campaign was kicked off, at which point they reinstated a lot of their Heralds, whom despite being awfully vocal with their concerns, still got roped back in again, not to mention re-friended a lot of blocked Dakka members on Facebook. Me as well!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I backed,
and actually i'd be happy with either big mechanical boots (which actually got a whole bunch of critisim when first shown) or combat heels although they'll change how I paint the minis up
You mean the Super Mario movie boots?
Alpharius wrote:I pledged because of the Not-Terminators.
I don't think we've even seen renders of them yet though, have we?
I think they may be in the same boat as General Wolfenstein from the first campaign: one of the first concepts to be shown off but ultimately one of the last to be done up as a mini. Shame really, as I also very loved the look of that one lass with the hammer and shield an awful lot.
BrookM - While I think you have some good points, when you start saying Cadian plastics do anything "perfectly"... I think you've crossed the line
There's a reason there's such a market for alternate IG, and it's mostly that GW's IG (whether Cadians / Catachans / etc!) are pretty poor!
There's some nice sculpts to be had if you go through Forgeworld, etc... but it just makes it ripe for competitors.
Also, to you and Buzzsaw I just had a question - At least in Buzzsaw's case, since you didn't really back this project much I wonder why you continue to go after the RH folks - not saying they don't leave themselves really open to it, but it just feels a bit harsh. Especially with say that gif, that has continued to pop up throughout any RH discussion. It's funny as a meme, I'll grant you . But at some point I would think you'd say you disagree with their approach and move on...
Finally, just wanted to say I do find both of your analyses on things like this interesting - this is more a comment of motivation / what you're looking to get out of continuing to track them, since you're not really after the minis themselves this time around (again from Buzzsaw's comment of dropping his backing by 95% last page - not sure if you're in on this one heavily BrookM?).
Hmm, you know, that's a fine question, and one I've actually asked myself. I suppose that it really comes down to one definite point, and then two things that flow from that. The definite point is this: I consider sister models in boots are not equivalent to sister models in stripper heels. There is a lot of argument to be had on that, I'm sure, but that's what I believe, and put simply, I consider the changes that RH has made to be the equivalent of (in lay terms) a Bait and Switch.
I realize there a people that don't agree with my assessment, which is fine, but that assessment motivates the two points that follow from it;
-The first is... I genuinely think they are screwing people over here. What pushes my evaluation of RH's actions from basically harmless to malignant and (bordering on) tortious is their refusal to refund people who don't like the change. This moves beyond the area of their usual shenanigans of silly design decisions, interminable delays and general pig-headed-ness. This is the bait and switch, it aggravates me, and it's likely to keep aggravating me unless and until they either revert the offending sculpts or offer refunds.
Please note: my aggravation here is not inherently connected to the stripper heels. Plenty of the models were initially shown in such heels, and they worked fine with that in their established aesthetic. My ire is connected to showing art that clearly had the models in boots, and then switching to stripper heels, without either soliciting feedback ahead of time or allowing people refunds. If they allow refunds? This problem is completely fixed.
-The second point is rather similar to BrookM's: on the aesthetic side I think they really are going down the wrong path and it's disappointing, because I had high hopes in the first campaign, and they... sorta came through?
Someone mentioned Kingdom Death, and I think that's a good comparison, because I think that what Poots has gone the right way, at least when it comes to his miniature philosophy. What I mean by that is there is a pretty clear divergence between the individual, monopose sculpts and the 'generic' armor kits. His armor kits are just amazing, in no small part because they don't go as far over the top as the individual sculpts.
Consider the difference between individual figures like the Fighter, Mage and Thief on the one hand...
Spoiler:
And, on the other hand, the Leather Armor kit;
Spoiler:
Or the Spider Silk armor kit;
Spoiler:
There is a huge difference in pose and dynamism, if you will. There is clearly less 'movement' in the kits... which makes them vastly more flexible, because it means they can be used in a modular fashion. This means that the kits have a great deal of utility for making various fantasy figures, not just highly individualized 'characters', but you can also make units out of them.
This is the biggest problem with what RH has decided to do with most, if not all, of their unit boxes: rather then toning down their aesthetic, they're simply making boxes of aesthetically similar heroic models.
In Warmachine, one of the big complaints is how noticeable it is that there is repetition of sculpt in, basically, anything larger then a unit of 3. Imagine how much more jarring that will be when you have multiple squads of, say, 10 Sisters, and in every single squad you have the one Sister doing the hokey-pokey, the one Sister doing... the reverse hokey pokey, the come at me, bro... Nobody can be just 'shooting', instead you have to be executing a one foot landing in high heels (with an ankle breaking angle, natch), tabard swirling around with the spine in some impossible position...
Again, this would all be fine for hero models. It would also be fine if the unit was especially acrobatic... but these aren't. These are just regular trooper models with a variety of guns, not limber assassins. This is one area where GW clearly understood what they were doing back when they released their updated Dark Eldar range; there was a clear differentiation between Warriors and Wyches, where the warriors had more solid, 'military' stances, contrasting the running and athletic poses of the Wyches.
This is an area where RH was only OK to start, but now seem to have completely lost their ability to use visual language to express information... well, information other then "Awesome! Everything is Awesome!" The problem is that when everything is awesome, nothing is.
Unfortunately, the answer seems to be what someone suggested literally years ago, after the first campaign: lower expectations. It's shame, because they really do have some good art staff, but the direction they are getting is so wrongheaded and... almost, patronizing? There seems something just desperate about how over the top everything is. Like in that Ramsey show I linked above, it almost seems like there is a lack of confidence in the product, and so a need to throw everything into it in an attempt to say "see, it's great! It's got all this great stuff, everyone likes all of these things, so why wouldn't they like them together?!"
That being said, the entire team is working non-stop on finishing all the sculpts, with huge commitment and energy. The process that we developed with the first Troops is paying off and is constantly evolving and improving. But it requires a high level of skills and attention, and even then, occasionally, some things slip through.
By slipping through, I don't mean that we don't see the problems, but rather, that we cannot fix them all before we produce the renders for you. Case in point is the case of the rubbery ankles...
It is true that some of the models we showed last week have strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, creating the feeling that the heels look impractical.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is a problem that shows in both Sisters and Dark Eves Troops , and it will be fixed.
More specifically, for the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
Please note that the Fantasy Angels images that we are posting below do not have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we plan to show you the changes at that time.
And I think this test print is relevant to many's interests:
That being said, the entire team is working non-stop on finishing all the sculpts, with huge commitment and energy. The process that we developed with the first Troops is paying off and is constantly evolving and improving. But it requires a high level of skills and attention, and even then, occasionally, some things slip through.
By slipping through, I don't mean that we don't see the problems, but rather, that we cannot fix them all before we produce the renders for you. Case in point is the case of the rubbery ankles...
It is true that some of the models we showed last week have strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, creating the feeling that the heels look impractical.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is a problem that shows in both Sisters and Dark Eves Troops , and it will be fixed.
More specifically, for the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
Please note that the Fantasy Angels images that we are posting below do not have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we plan to show you the changes at that time.
And I think this test print is relevant to many's interests:
The new update is out, and it features their take on Angels with dirty faces... oops, I mean stripper heels, half-a dozen of the other and all that.
I left some feedback there (long story short, nice figures, but really weird proportions in some areas), but the real thing that struck me overall is what BrookM mentioned: their figures are just so 'dynamic' that they end up really poorly done for making actual units. The angels especially don't look like a unit that you would want to ever have more then one of, because so many highly distinctive design elements would be so obvious when you have more then one.
There are angels ascending, angels descending, angels shoving forward a book, etc. They all look rather nice (with the noted exceptions), until you have more then one on the field. They really seem more painters miniatures or heroes then unit figures.
Which rather ties into one of the things I've observed about RH: they just don't know when to tone things down. Troopers should not be so distinctive, because you end up on detail overload.
By the way, earlier I had sent a message to RH, asking them how the male conversion kits for Dark Elves were going to work (yet another casualty of hyper-dynamism), and received this reply;
I have received feedback from the creative team regarding your query on the male bits for Dark Elves, but as they will redesigned and produced last in this KS, it is too early to provide a specific answer for this.
Now, I don't want to read too much into this, but my sense that they forgot they were evening doing these kits has increased. If for no other reason then how bad it seems (at least to a laymen) to completely design the Dark Elves, push them to production stage, then, after everything else is done, design major replacement parts.
Buzzsaw - Just wanted to say, all fair points! Someday, though, I want to see you do a post-mortem of a Kickstarter you Love
I actually track all of this because I'm both interested as a backer (of wayyyy to many KS!) and creator... so it's all just very helpful to see and learn from.
Would there be any support for alternate feet for the sisters? If they are going to redesign the ankles anyway, wouldn't that be the perfect time to design two bits for the ankle downward? That way the RH team doesn't have to sacrifice the heeled look that they say they think embodies the line, but the backers still get what they want? It seems like a very minimal amount of work, which would be done on an area of the render they're already going back to do more work on...
Jimsolo wrote: Would there be any support for alternate feet for the sisters? If they are going to redesign the ankles anyway, wouldn't that be the perfect time to design two bits for the ankle downward? That way the RH team doesn't have to sacrifice the heeled look that they say they think embodies the line, but the backers still get what they want? It seems like a very minimal amount of work, which would be done on an area of the render they're already going back to do more work on...
I'm sure there would be: the people that object to heels do not (seem) to have anything against heels as an option, they just don't want it to be the only option. The problem is that for many of the figures, the 'dynamic' poses mean that feel often touch other pieces of the sculpts: flowing tabards, tactical rocks, etc... Besides, the stripper heel seems to be the hill that RH is willing to fight and die on (possible in the economic sense, as I point out in an earlier post, I would be shocked if RH had the capability to refund even a very small % of their pledges).
Hehe, one of the backers (I believe the one that has already asked for, and been denied, a refund) made this image;
Spoiler:
If RH thinks that everyone is going to warm up to this change, methinks they are going to be disappointed. Which leads to the question I have pondered: what percentage of this campaign's backers are going to ask for a refund, and what percent can RH actually afford to refund?
I hope they fix the feet... their choices are a bit odd. That being said they still haven't reveled the units I went in for. I hope their horsemen and Worm riders turn out well as I want to use them for KoW.
I was a late backer through paypal (wish i'd waited a few months now), are they really not offering refunds on this? seems kind of shady of them.
Pretty much all the models I wanted when I backed have been shown now except the not-repentia, and I don't exactly have high hopes for them as there artwork there wasn't hopeful to begin with.
Currently looking at $175 for the dark elf with the pet dragon, good times.
Firah wrote: I was a late backer through paypal (wish i'd waited a few months now), are they really not offering refunds on this? seems kind of shady of them.
Pretty much all the models I wanted when I backed have been shown now except the not-repentia, and I don't exactly have high hopes for them as there artwork there wasn't hopeful to begin with.
Currently looking at $175 for the dark elf with the pet dragon, good times.
At first I hadn't noticed you mentioning Paypal; if you're really not interested in much else, you may want to get in contact with Paypal sooner rather then later, as Paypal will not offer "Purchase Protection" on "Payments on crowdfunding platforms" starting June 25, 2016. You probably knew, but I didn't want that to come as an unpleasant surprise.
Baseless speculation time (Warning!)
There have been some things recently that make me wonder what is going on with RH: including, but not limited to, the appearance of near constant sales or promotions of one type or another. The most recent one is the free shipping on any order (if you're curious, it's free shipping on any order, just use discount code RHFreeShipMay when you check out). The thing is, that promotion was originally a 3 day affair, now it seems to be open ended.
This all just brings me back to something I was baselessly speculating about a few pages back: how many of their backers are actually pissed enough to be contacting their payment providers right now and forcing a refund? My impression is that the Sisters line was one of their most popular (although since the PM hasn't gone through, no idea where that stat comes from), and SoB players are... I'm going to say, exacting. Which may put their answer about refunds;
Saga Wälivaara about 1 hour ago
My request to be refunded was denied and I was left with this.
"However, our Financial Department suggests that we wait until all our sculpts are finished, in order to see if some miniatures can meet your expectations. If not, then they will be discussing the refund at this time."
Just have to wait it out then.
in a slightly different light. Should it be read as somewhat less of a 'screw you', and more of a 'please wait, please... Maybe you'll be happy with something coming?' Think of it this way: there are 6 armies, and about 3k backers. Assume that we can group fantasy and sci-fi Sister backers together then that's 1000 people, give or take, and that's around a quarter of a million in backing funds.
How much of that could RH possibly be able to refund without serious damage to their ability to conduct business? How much could they possible have in liquid assets? Remember, at $250 (about), every four (4) people that demand a refund is $1000.
Let's imagine it's 10%, not of the whole campaign, but just of the thousand Sister backers that are pissed. That's 100 people, just 1/30th of the entire campaign... but that's $25,000+ in refunds. And that's just 1 in 10 of the Sisters backers.
How much of that could RH possibly be able to refund without serious damage to their ability to conduct business? How much could they possible have in liquid assets? Remember, at $250 (about), every four (4) people that demand a refund is $1000.
Let's imagine it's 10%, not of the whole campaign, but just of the thousand Sister backers that are pissed. That's 100 people, just 1/30th of the entire campaign... but that's $25,000+ in refunds. And that's just 1 in 10 of the Sisters backers.
Just a thought.
Hopefully enough that they change their minds on the whole fetish gear thing. Doubt it though the guy in charge seems to have one hell of an ego on him.
BrookM wrote: Once a target has been acquired, it will not be let go so easily.
Which makes a future Kickstarter where they promote and sell their own set of rules all the more interesting to follow when it happens.
It's rather fascinating: at the end of the first campaign, they were very, very keen to note that they were using the influx of funds to develope... quite a lot, really;
As we told you on the KS video, the possibility of a great result on our Kickstarter would open up new opportunities for you and us. And so it has! Many improvements have now become possible. And we already have some wicked plans for not just one, but two games!
One will be a mass combat rule system, and the other one will be a board game with a unique, very cool and fun setting.
The board game had been in the back of our mind for over two years. We've already laid out many of its concepts, but we did not have the resources to develop it fully before. This has now become possible and we can't wait to tell you more about it.
The new resources generated by the TGG Kickstarter will also allow us to make these games and their background available to you in a very new, innovative form that will truly enrich the gaming experience.
That message was posted July 13, 2013. May 9th (of this year, that is), I see that they are instead using the following line in their advertisements (emphasis in original);
Offer ends in 48 hours, so treat yourself now!!!
There's never been a better time to sample
the best proxies in the world for wargaming!
Not only have they seemingly abandoned their much touted independent rules system, it's worth remembering they still have not delivered one of the simplest pieces from the first campaign: the digital art book.
Buzzsaw wrote: Not only have they seemingly abandoned their much touted independent rules system, it's worth remembering they still have not delivered one of the simplest pieces from the first campaign: the digital art book.
Not jumping to their defence, but that book won't happen until they have each and every model of the first KS all painted up, which is still an ongoing process, as models will only appear in their on-line store either unpainted as part of their bundles, or all painted up as separate products.
Buzzsaw wrote: Not only have they seemingly abandoned their much touted independent rules system, it's worth remembering they still have not delivered one of the simplest pieces from the first campaign: the digital art book.
Not jumping to their defence, but that book won't happen until they have each and every model of the first KS all painted up, which is still an ongoing process, as models will only appear in their on-line store either unpainted as part of their bundles, or all painted up as separate products.
That's fair enough, except... why? I haven't looked up exactly how they promoted the digital art book at the time, but I (at least) have no interest in the painted pictures. Not to be mean, but their studio painter isn't exactly Angel from CB (of course, who is?). But in a way, this is a good example of what you mentioned before comparing them to Poots at Kingdom Death;
In both cases, the influx of Kickstarter money allowed an 'unfettered' artistic exploration. What I find is that when you compare them, Poots (by and large) went in the right direction with his flights of fancy, while RH largely has not.
I don't want the off-palette painted minis in the art book, I want their great line art from the campaign. Instead, we're going to wait... well, continue to wait, as we're now 3 years post funding.
I love the size of Buzzsaw's cojones, and yet his utmost etiquette distilled in this simple comment: off-palette painted minis.
The digital artbook was supposed to be about the line drawings, and the concept art. They're just hoping people stop asking about it.
Alpharius: They already have printed a sample low-res copy of a not-terminator, so I'm guessing there is some sort of progress on that front? Honestly, it looks more like the Hannah alternate sculpt from the TtB Kickstarter, which Buzzsaw also did a Post-Mortem of... are they secret fans, Buzz?
For those few titillated holdouts, the scuttle is that late pledges will end very soon. Like this week and/or imminently. I finally caved in last night, after months of resisting the Lust Elves and their gribbly mounts
Somewhat ironically, I basically paid for my pledge using money from selling previous kickstarter hauls
That's one of the reasons I can't quite disabuse myself of the notion that there is trouble behind the scenes; perhaps I am forgetting them allow pledges on TG1 for ages, but they are still advertising the free anywhere shipping shipping on any order.
Which is interesting, given that it was originally proposed as a 3 day event... on May 9th (closing on May 11th). I jsut got something from them claiming it will end 'tomorrow'.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I love the size of Buzzsaw's cojones, and yet his utmost etiquette distilled in this simple comment: off-palette painted minis.
The digital artbook was supposed to be about the line drawings, and the concept art. They're just hoping people stop asking about it.
Alpharius: They already have printed a sample low-res copy of a not-terminator, so I'm guessing there is some sort of progress on that front? Honestly, it looks more like the Hannah alternate sculpt from the TtB Kickstarter, which Buzzsaw also did a Post-Mortem of... are they secret fans, Buzz?
Well, you never know, perhaps (along with the high heels) that's what they are into...
Pure speculation on my end, but I think for them it's cheaper to give free shipping than it is to give a percentage off (10% or whatever) on the entire range. Shipping has always been dirt cheap with them to begin with, but you'll still pay the boutique prices for the mini's.
The shipping on such light packages must not be too burdensome, and maybe they get a rebate on volume, like Canada Post is keen on giving my business (ain't no way I'm shipping glass. Ever)
May as well give it a try here: Are there any veterans of the first Kickstarter or general buyers of the Doctor von X model who have not used the small robotic arm with the teacup and are willing to part with it?
I need one for a conversion and I can't for the life of me find the one I had set aside.
{/quote]Update #45 – Troops Coming Next + Pledge Manager News + Shipping Begins in June
Saw this on one of the sculptors' screen and fell in love with her...
We have been working like crazy this month, creating more troops than we ever did. The working rhythm is so intense that at one point, someone raised his head from the computer and said “hey guys, I think we forgot to make an update”. There was a general “oops!” in the room... and so here are some news to keep you posted.
When we work on the sculpts, it's hard to move into “render mode” as it breaks everybody' rhythm, which is why you haven't seen images these last four weeks. But now we are very close to the end, so some of us can start on the renders and we are currently preparing the images to share with you.
Here's what's in the Image Render Queue. Please note that as we proceed to render, we occasionally find problems which force us to remove a sculpt from the render queue and rework it, so while this list is pretty definitive, there can always be last-minute changes:
•10 Davidians – Sci-Fi Sisters (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Blade Maidens – Fantasy Sisters (Troops and Command Group)
•5 remaining Death Dancers – Fantasy Lust Elves
•10 Blood Vestals – Fantasy Dark Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Blood Vestals – Sci-Fi Void Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•6 Vestal Riders – Fantasy Dark Elves
•10 Skinners – Sci-Fi Lust Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Flesh Eaters – Fantasy Lust Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•6/10 Knights of the Chalice – Sci-Fi Sisters (Troops and Command Group)
•6 Mounted Knights – Fantasy Sisters (Troops and Command Group)
•6 Worm Riders – Fantasy Lust Elves (Troops and Command Group) : Command Group got unlocked this week!!!
There is also
•The huge Avatar of Shaah – Sci-Fi/Fantasy Lust Elves
And these Heroines:
•Senshyrha, Slave Master – Fantasy Lust Elves
•Senshyrha, Slave Master – Sci-Fi Lust Elves
•Yscarloth, The Harvester of Flesh – Fantasy Lust Elves
•Yscarloth, The Harvester of Flesh – Sci-Fi Lust Elves
And finally, listed below are the models that we are currently working on. We are not sure when they will be finished, but we plan to have at least a few models of each troops to feature in the Pledge Manager, to help you to make your Rewards Selection:
•Centaur Heroine – Fantasy Lust Elves
•Centaur Heroine – Sci-Fi Lust Elves
•Ascended Sister Erzebel, Great Seraphim – Fantasy/SciFi Sisters
•10 Hunters – Sci-Fi Void Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Long Swords – Fantasy Dark Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Executrix – Sci-Fi Dark Elves (Troops and Command Group)
•10 Harpies – Fantasy Dark Elves (Troops and Command Group)
Pledge Manager
The Pledge Manager is being compiled right now. It will be open within the next 2 weeks, possibly before. Keep reading for info on shipping costs and first shipments.
Shipping Costs
My key problem has been with the shipping costs. I wanted to manage them differently from our TGG1 Kickstarter, but no supplier is able give me what I want. We've worked with many e-commerce solutions and suppliers, some even specialised in Kickstarter Rewards. But none has been able to come up with a solution that would allow the functionalities we need, given the fact that our production is spread out over time, that no two Rewards Selection are alike, and that we want to ship out Rewards as soon as they are produced, so that your wait is as short as possible.
And so, I've had to go back to the system we used for our last Kickstarter, that is, flat-rate shipping and a 2-week window for completing the Pledge Manager. We may be able to re-open the Pledge Manager later so that you can add to your pledge while the production is moving forward. More on this later.
2 Shipments for the Price of 1 !
As before, shipping costs will be collected upfront. Once they are paid, you will have access to the Pledge Manager.
So this means that we have to get back to our previous shipping method, which we used on TGG1. The price of the shipping will cover shipping, handling, and packaging and it will be along the lines of what we had back in 2013, that is, between $22 and $28. But this will cover 2 shipments as we are offering you one shipment for free!
Kickstarter Shipments will begin in June!
The first shipments will be made in the month of June and will include ALL the Freebies + all the minis that have already been produced by the foundry and are in stock at this time.
The next shipment will be made when the rest of your rewards are ready to ship. There will also be an option to buy additional shipments if you want to.
I am preparing a detailed listing on this. In fact, the listing should show
•what's still being sculpted
•what's in the production queue
•what's in stock and ready to ship.
This way, you'll know what's happening now that we are nearing the end of our sculpting work. I shall put this document online and update it regularly. More on this soon...
And stay tuned for tons of images and new sculpts coming your way next week
Questions?
If you have questions, please contact us directly, either via the Kickstarter private message system, or via e-mail at RagingHeroesTeam@gmail.com, or via the Live Chat box on www.ragingheroes.com. We strive to answer within 24 hours (except on week-ends).
Alpharius wrote: once this one grew to ridiculous proportions - good and evil humans and elves for fantasy and SF!
Yes, it would have made more sense to do a Humans (sci fi / fantasy) campaign, then an Elves (x3, sci fi / fantasy) campaign rather than smash them all together and drag all 8? lines out for years, though I guess I can thank the human supporters for some of the weirder lust elves stuff I'm interested in BUT I'm in no rush, am sure I'll find some extant game system to use all these naked chicks and their gribbly beasts in when they finally arrive
)
You haven't seen Montreal's pathetic excuse for a subway, then. If you're already in the central core, then it's great. If you're outside, then you're screwed no matter what. Their metro seems positively brilliant to me.
Why do we think it's rubber?
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