They shouldve really said something about the material right at the end of the pledgemanager. See which models are popular, maybe poll the customers about which material theyd prefer their models to be in and give refunds/allow them to change their choices if they disagree.
Hmm I wonder if the 'loose' stuff with the HIPS forgefathers is actually going to be HIPS too,
clipping all those individual bits would be a pain, but if the were done in 'sprueless' PVC/restic/DS plastic then the machine could pop them right out.....
of course that would mean superglue rather than plastic cement for assembly
I actually asked Mantic for board game plastic models in DZI because I was so pleased with Mars Attacks, and they said it was completely out of the question.
Board game plastic I'm fine with in Dungeon Saga, it's perfect for that sort of thing. Board game plastic at resin prices for wargames miniatures, in a last minute material swap, not so much.
MaxT wrote: Board game plastic I'm fine with in Dungeon Saga, it's perfect for that sort of thing. Board game plastic at resin prices for wargames miniatures, in a last minute material swap, not so much.
Thanks, MaxT, I think you hit the nail on the head. In all honesty, I'm not completely against boardgame plastic in all circumstances. I also don't mind moving metal to plastic dependent on order quantities. But pledging with high quality, higher priced resin in mind and getting boardgame plastic minis instead is pretty crummy. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any mention of resin being swapped out for boardgame plastic being a possibility dependent on order quantities, either.
The resin minis were draws for the whole campaign, some of them intended to be exclusive luxury items. Dungeon Saga itself stands as proof that boardgame plastic minis don't hold detail as well as resin does, and that resin minis are valued more highly. If you don't like resin, you're good, but that's not really a defense of Mantic's behavior on this, it's just saying it doesn't affect you particularly.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Hmm I wonder if the 'loose' stuff with the HIPS forgefathers is actually going to be HIPS too,
clipping all those individual bits would be a pain, but if the were done in 'sprueless' PVC/restic/DS plastic then the machine could pop them right out.....
of course that would mean superglue rather than plastic cement for assembly
The sprue that the clipped parts are from was shown at the open day it's definitely HIPS it looks like the sprue is to long to fit in the cases so they have to clip them to package them and make them fit. Of more concern is the reduced number of heavy weapons and flamers as they can't fit a squads worth on the sprue now you have to combine several sprues which probably won't be an issue for most people as they will have multiples to hand.
Spoiler:
Sigh so much for no PVC metal to PVC doesn't bother me to much as Mantics metals are hit and miss quality wise but I'm not happy about the loss of resins and for price paid for the larger resins they should really be doubling up like the Strider by way of compensation
I think we're all used to DaveC's tendency to get over-emotional about small things and write florid, fire-and-brimstone critiques of Mantic's decisions. But I always write terse, objective summations that get right to the heart of the matter. So if I'm complaining, something is definitely amiss.
Whoops. I think I meant that in reverse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: I actually asked Mantic for board game plastic models in DZI because I was so pleased with Mars Attacks
(Victorian melodrama actress voice) Oh, how could you? After all the KS campaigns we've been through together? And Bob? Et tu, Bobbe?
Guys, it's Thanksgiving day. We should definitely spend it on important things, like complaining about Mantic's material switches.
I know all this matters from a certain perspective, but don't ever take a step back from that perspective and look at yourself and what you're saying, like I just did. Because then it all starts looking very inconsequential and silly. I think I just experienced a sudden, vicious attack of maturity. Hideous.
And if it wasn't apparent, no offense was intended to DaveC, that was just me making fun of myself. Peace, DaveC.
Did I miss where they released a Firefight Alpha? Pretty sure during the KS they promised it would be up shortly after the KS finished but.. yeah.. no.. unless I missed it, they haven't delivered on that.
Today, I am thankful I didn't back the WP KS.
So I take it the Dust guys only produce board game plastic? The update just says it's they who are producing them and that they are the same people who did the DS stuff, not that they are doing them in boardgame plastic. That said if that's the only material they produce (I'm not familiar with any of their output- notwithstanding an Operation Babylon kickstarter that I've not seen anything from and gave up on long ago- so I genuinely don't know) then fair enough. I'm pretty happy with my Dungeon Saga figures and the less metal I have to deal with, the better, but this should have been something people were made aware of long ago.
I love the Ogre though. For some reason I'm getting two and I've already given my DBX one a weapon too, so I'm pleased with the look.
I won't comment on the material changes, since I wasn't in on this Kickstarter and so have no horse in the race, though it does make me a little concerned about the Warpath KS I went in on recently.
If anyone is unhappy with the new sculpt for the N7-117, Forward Observer let me know though, since I am hoping to get one and would gladly pay to take one off someone's hands.
As for the upcoming IP, I am really hoping it is Fallout.
I'm wondering if the Ogre's veil was inspired by Forge World's masked 40K Ogryn renegades.
Regardless, it seems odd to me, but I didn't get one anyway.
On a positive note, I think that Rebs leader has a subtle, effective pose - the kind I'm not used to seeing from computer sculpted minis. I'm a little confused though as to whether she's going to be metal or is being changed to plastic. I think she'll be metal - I think Mantic put her and the Ogre on at the end to show the last previously unseen model renders, not as part of the boardgame plastic parade that preceded them.
Either way, I'm disinterested in metal enough that I don't much care.
I don't think I pledged for anything other than a Lockdown pledge and the ogre, so I'm not sure how I feel about all the changes, as I didn't pay any extra specifically for the affected models. They were all included with my pledge.
I shall reserve passing judgement for when we get more clear details on what all these changes are actually going to be- what kinds of plastics, how the price will be affected, how many models we will actually receive... stuff like that.
Maybe this will result in the Aberration and Chem Thrower kits being larger? A really HUGE Aberration could be cool, and if Mantic wants to toss in an extra or two as a "We're sorry we messed up" type deal, I think my problems with the material won't be as bad...
I feel like the bait and switch is becoming Mantic's go to move. Whatever this new amazing IP is, I don't think I will be pledging for it. Not sure how anyone could put much trust in Mantic with the way they've been doing business lately.
several units of Laser Grenadiers that I converted and painted to be ONI Korps units for AT-43, and a unit of German command to use for a pulp Bolt Action game.
A couple vehicles and suits that I bought to use for other things.
The laser grenadiers are multipart plastic (though Dust stuff came preassembled and preprimed) and highly detailed. The command set was the same - very sharp pristine details. the vehicles are very high quality hard plastic kits like the AT-43 walkers.
People keep saying boardgame plastic but that is not my experience at all with Dust.
Is that what Mantic has switched to?
I've attached screenshots of a Mantic zombie (arguably one of Mantic's best plastics, with Warlord German accessories) and the Dust figure for comparison.
I guess we disagree, Judge Doug. (It's a first!) Having just received my heavily discounted Dust figures and vehicles from FFG, I'm happy I didn't pay more for them. I find the figures more rubbery and their detail inferior to Mantic's restic, and the vehicles lighter and more brittle than those used in AT-43. My first impression was surprise that Dust Studios ever got away with charging full price for these, and I'm not surprised FFG is dumping them at bargain prices now.
Bioptic wrote: Torrent of abuse incoming! Mantic has released a Deadzone update indicating that most of the metal/resin stuff from the Kickstarter is now being produced in the Dungeon Saga plastics:
If those are the same quality as the Mars Attacks plastics, and if they adjust the price accordingly, then I will be happy with this decision.
Edit: not very happy. Just slightly happy.
At last we violently disagree! Let slip the dogs of war!
OK, not violently. Here's my take:
Converting metal to plastic: a good thing for me.
Converting resin to Dust Studios PVC: Yeah, I just got some Dust figures at the FFG sale delivered, and they're fairly poor quality. Passable, but I'd take Mantic's restic over the Dust PVC any day. Also, from what I've seen of the Dungeon Saga plastics online, I'm not impressed. That's not the same as seeing them in person, though.
Overall reaction: Some of this benefits me (less metal), some of it is a pretty major disappointment (losing resin to low-quality PVC). But overall, a last minute switch of this scope, on a KS project as recent as this one after they're supposed to know better? They've lost a lot of my trust. I think from this point on I'll stick with the obvious HIPS kits from Mantic - the ones they can't change at the last minute without shooting themselves in the foot - and that's it. Starting with the Warpath PM, which I've already pledged $100 unassigned dollars on. All that's going to $20/20 HIPS deals and nothing else will be added.
I know Mantic have been trying to watch their budgeting more carefully, but this is ridiculous. If they stand to lose money or be inconvenienced, the customer definitely comes second now. Sheesh.
Whatever the new IP is, I think I'll wait a year after it's released and pick it up on clearance this time. Scratch that. It'll be in boardgame plastic and I'll skip it entirely.
Oh, and for everybody who enjoys kicking MEdge like a dog? Guess which company doesn't pull garbage like this on their customers, or manufacture any figures in half-@ssed materials? Guess where I'll be spending more money from this point on?
Finally, some drama in this thread!
Actually, my post was more of a kneejerk "Plastic: superior/metal: inferior" reaction. Really, I had been waiting for the Mantic Kickstarter's other shoe to drop, and now that it has the tension has melted away.
Obviously it's not a good thing that Mantic broke yet another promise. I can imagine how many people will feel betrayed that Mantic took their money without giving what they paid for. It's par for the course and it's gak. I already lost my trust for Mantic, and am firmly into the "no kissing on the mouth/money's on the nightstand" relationship with them. They clearly screwed over a huge number of people with their Mantic antics, and show no shame about it.
I'm pretty much done with ordering anything but 20 for $20 deals from Mantic KS's. (And Blaines. Damn it, I don't even know why I want them!)
As for the DUST plastic, I haven't met a DUST miniature that wasn't worth its (heavily discounted) price. I like the material and I love their vehicles. The Mars Attacks minis were good enough for me, especially the Tiger Corps, so if these minis hit that level of quality I'll simmer down. Lots of people dislike those minis or find their quality lacking, though, so Mantic should really have thought twice about this decision.
Oh.Hmmm. I just remembered that I paid 15 bucks for that Blaine on jetbike thinking it would be resin and I'm livid. Sure, I actually like plastic even more as a material, but somehow I feel cheated.
Maybe they should give us two Blaines.
PS: I'm still excited for Medge. Plastic robots and aliens? Still want 'em. They even have a card game and novels. If they somehow got an Adventure Game Book into print, that would be checkmate.
Vermonter wrote: I guess we disagree, Judge Doug. (It's a first!) Having just received my heavily discounted Dust figures and vehicles from FFG, I'm happy I didn't pay more for them. I find the figures more rubbery and their detail inferior to Mantic's restic, and the vehicles lighter and more brittle than those used in AT-43. My first impression was surprise that Dust Studios ever got away with charging full price for these, and I'm not surprised FFG is dumping them at bargain prices now.
Weird, dunno. The Laser Grenadiers matched perfectly into the ONI army and I haven't had troubles with the couple vehicles I bought. If they're anything like the quality of that Dust evil nazi doctor dude I posted, I'm much happier with that than getting metals. But I'm super pissed about the resin. But now I can't remember what I pledged for. The $110 level ish and maybe one or two add ons.
Hmm, I liked the plastic in DS so I'm okay with replacing metal with it. Given a choice between resin, restic and boardgame plastic, I'd take resin followed by boardgame plastic and then restic.
(Victorian melodrama actress voice) Oh, how could you? After all the KS campaigns we've been through together? And Bob? Et tu, Bobbe?
No, you were right. Now is not the time for cooler heads to prevail. I had just shot off a terse reply before stuffing the turkey so I hadn't had a chance to get properly Dakka'd. Now I'm all a-froth.
The word "resin" definitely affected my purchasing calculations, encouraging me to spend more on certain single figures than I should have. Mantic used customer psychology in effect to 'haggle a higher price' on those minis, apparently a new variation on the fake stretch goals or the rope-a-dope single vehicle/triple vehicle combo. I thought I was cynical about Mantic's manipulative kickstarter tactics before, but this has exposed me as a veritable doe-eyed babe.
Oh dear Mantic. I think they could have guessed the general response to this but went ahead anyway. I really do feel for the backers on this one, a switch to what is generally regarded as an inferior material is a real no no.
And working with Dust? Their recent record is hardly exemplary.
Dust Studios is the manufacturing arm of the whole Dust operation. Lots of companies work with them.
Conan's plastics are all being done by them. Don't remember people complaining too much about the quality of those. Now if they'd have just offered some of those sculpts in resin as well... but that's a different story.
Heck, doesn't CMON use them as well?
Dust the game was a whole different cluster of a mess with what happened with that Kickstarter...
But we are pretty sure that these Dust plastics will be the Dungeon Saga "boardgame" "mmmm bendy" type. I really hope Mantic do something to make it up to backers.
I was never a big fan of "Mantic: Almost" but they seem to be trying to live up to that epithet with every new project. I think a lot of the issues stem from over promising and under delivering, seems to me like they need a more concrete plan and budget before they embark on any Kickstarter.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Dust Studios is the manufacturing arm of the whole Dust operation. Lots of companies work with them.
Conan's plastics are all being done by them. Don't remember people complaining too much about the quality of those. Now if they'd have just offered some of those sculpts in resin as well... but that's a different story.
Heck, doesn't CMON use them as well?
Dust the game was a whole different cluster of a mess with what happened with that Kickstarter...
Sining wrote: X-Wing is produced by them as well iirc.
I have heard that as well. Since now two people on the Internet say it, it must be true! Joking aside I have heard that mentioned and I believe they do Armada too, for obvious reasons.
The switch (mostly) doesn't impact me as I review my pledge and I think the only thing they switched that I'm getting was the N-117 model (so a big win for hating the Veer-myn as a concept I suppose). All I can muster there is "meh" as far as outrage. It does make me less inclined to back Mantic KS projects though, and that was an area that really didn't need the help.
Dust Studios also did/are doing the miniatures for Conan, Blood Rage, The Others and Zombicide Black Plague. For me there's no issue with the miniatures they can produce (That's all separate to the Dust game issues) its the change from resin to PVC thats annoying while something like the Aberration will translate OK to PVC as its large it will still lose fine detail as can seen if you compare the resin Gen 1 to the restic version.
Use your connections to get somebody to smack Ronnie on the nose with a rolled up newspaper....
"No!, bad Ronnie, stop that, stop that now!"
I actually wonder if all the hassle over getting the Resin Blaine done has soured relationships in the casting industry,
it would certainly be an easier pill to swallow than mantic not actually seeing a difference between a high quality resin cast and the same number of items in PVC (even good quality PVC
That is a very good deal on Deadzone, for the miniatures alone. Add in the terrain, dice etc etc and it is a really good investment. Any new buyers that fancy it just be aware that the Deadzone rules will be changing in quarter 1 2016 with the release of Deadzone 2.0/Infestation.
@Scarletsquig: Yup, that is a very poor deal for you and other similar backers. As someone on the RC who has a degree (it may be relatively minor) of dealings with Mantic have you any insights as to why daft decisions often seem to be the go to option as of late?
I'm sorry to say this, but it really does feel like Mantic have hired a conservative financial consultant, and they have taken to heart his advice that they should be willing to burn bridges with loyal customers in the pursuit of short term profits. Perhaps their new license is so big they no longer care about what their former supporters do, since they know enough people will flock to whatever they do next based on the license.
Whatever it is, it's a brash, ugly, and arrogant attitude shift from a company I had supported and felt invested in.
There have been problems since I started backing Mantic campaigns with Deadzone, but for me, they've been relatively minor (I wasn't part of Dungeon Saga), and I thought Mantic had put the "bad old days" of their fledgling KS efforts behind them. I've pretty much dismissed "bait-and-switch" claims as histrionic up till this point. Even now, I doubt that "bait-and-switch" is entirely apt, as I doubt this was Mantic's plan from the beginning. But it has essentially defaulted into a "bait-and-switch" effect, regardless. I thought we wouldn't see this willingness to pull disrespectful stunts on their customers until Ronnie got bored, sold the company, and it came under new, screw-the-customers management.
This is a game changer, and from the looks of things online, that's a majority opinion. I will be interested to see how long Mantic can keep up their nonchalant wall of silence on this issue. Their new license may be a killer, but this is going to haunt them and impact their KS support regardless.
I'm sure their financial adviser is shaking his head "no" on any thoughts of "making up the value" to backers with extra figures or sprues. Time to fire that guy, folks. Frankly, you ought to have known better in the first place.
I'm regretting DZI, but am increasingly grateful that I didn't sign on to any bundle pledge deals for Warpath, so I can rest easy knowing that everything I spend my credit on there will be HIPS and nothing else.
Oh, and who still thinks the Warpath Mules will be cast in resin? Caveat emptor. Mu hu ha ha ha . . .
I honestly doubt they've hired anybody that's changed anything.
On another note (and I realize this is the 'net), I honestly also doubt that Mantic's next KS will perform one bit less than their previous forays. People continue to buy in and buy in big--even the people who swear their disappointment at the latest KS deliverables while optimistically backing the next one.
If I were Renton I wouldn't change a thing. Their formula is working.
I question that the formula is working as well as it once did. And this is not just for Mantic. I think there is a fair bit of Kickstarter fatigue in general as people are fed up with delays, often cheaper availability at retail and with the knowledge of what you are actually getting in terms of sculpts, material and quality of components. Looking at Mantic's last few Kickstarters:
Dungeon Saga was the obvious hit there, a testament to the popularity of Dungeon Crawlers and the board game market. The other systems tend to show a drop off in funding with KOW 1 and 2 being the only one to show an increase, and then of only $12k. KOW1 was Mantic's first KS when the system was more of an unknown then and Mantic were far well less known.
More recently:
Deadzone 1: $1,216,482
Deadzone 2: $380,554
So a drop off of $835928
Dreadball 1:$728,985
Dreadball Extreme: $575,755
A drop off of $153230
Then you had Warpath failing to beat $500k when many considered it to be a $1+ million Kickstarter.
So not as successful as the Kickstarters once were. Admittedly it is still a very viable business model for Mantic, and this is before they get the retail sales from the funded games and miniatures. For example Dungeon saga is selling very well and I believe sold out until January. But with every material change, every poor component and every mis-packed delivery Mantic are slowly eroding their customer base and engendering bad will amongst the community. Just look at the Deadzone: Infestation comments section on the Kickstarter page, it is hitting near toxic levels. Then again the new "mystery" IP may well exceed the Mantic KS record set by Deadzone 1. We shall see.
I pulled out of the WP KS when it was obvious they were waffling back into their old ways. Anytime "anything" is promised "soon" you should know right then and there to back away slowly.
I like Mantic and am a customer from day one basically. For various reasons including a limited hobby budget I have not participated in their kickstarters so far. I bought a lot of their product at retail though. Like half a locker full. They have some good games and many okay minis and they deliver in niches that GW has failed to. Their scifi terrain is also really good.
But I dont like the 'most cheapish-preorder'-idea they use kickstarter for. This concept lacks in several departments.
For example the new vehicles. They do look great and I plan to buy at least three of the tunneler and the flyer kits. But I don't see how these can actually be produced and sold within the limitation of 25$. They have to and should increase the retail price significantly - maybe even to twice as much - if they want to make money from it. This should then fund future releases.
I am a customer who prefers actual quality over the most cheapish minis-approach. I will still buy at a higher price IF the quality is there.
Mantic has some both cheap and good miniatures like the Forgeguard no doubt. Maybe not topnotch but they are an overall nice product. For a quite low price. Does this make them money?
With their current business model they have to make compromises that really show (Basileans made some of my club's players very upset).
Crowdfunding is a nice thing. But in case of Mantic who I have and will buy product from it could turn out to be the wrong choice. Because everyone is currently expecting lots of stuff - for very few money. I do too, but changed my mind after some of their product turned out to be bad.
If they they come in hard plastic, have options and will be as large as similiar models from GW or other manufacturers yes. Mantic's buildings aren't that cheap either. But the quality is imo good. Maybe the 3D prints are misleading how large and of what quality they will be. 50? 40? I cannot say what would be a good price but I hope Mantic is not producing them with low quality technic like the Basileans were. There is quite some cheap and crap plastic product on the model market I would not buy even for 25$.
Pacific wrote: Having just caught up with this thread late on, could someone please very quickly summarise the material change and for what game system?
DeadZone Infestation at the moment; resin and metal for some models -> Dungeon Saga-style plastic by Dust Studios.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Why would you expect anything from Mantic not to be cheap and/or crap? That's their MO.
Well
I re-read your earlier post. The bearded tank and the Enforcer flyer are indeed not good and would probably not sell at higher prices - I think they won't sell anyway. Who greenlights such bad designs? But change at least their major issues and they could sell. There aren't that many scifi plastic tabletop vehicles yet.
The kits I mentioned are nice designs though. I also like the Corp buggy and the newest Asterian flyer variant.
Anyone mentioned that at the open day they had staff asking people to fill out a survey that was basically "why isn't deadzone selling/being played" ...... I know a common thing people talked about was the figures. If you are Mantic then you gave to looking at FFG, CMON etc knocking out the sales with the guard game figures requiring no assembly and then wanting some of that money. I' gave up assembling my deadzone and sold it on, horrendous figures, whereas the dungeon saga figures are great. Sucks if you backed the KS but that's the nature of KS.......
There is a real dichotomy between the board games and wargames market, board gamers seem to generally hate even the simplest of construction of figures. Personally I had no issues with the construction of the miniatures from Deadzone. The only one you had to think about was the Enforcer Engineer, apart from that it was mainly a case of gluing arms and heads onto bodies.
Maybe Mantic is going the route of KOW and Warpath being their wargaming franchises whilst everything else will be labeled as a board game? That would make sense and if backers/retail purchasers invest with that in mind then it would
help to reduce a lot of the criticism. What we currently have is a hodge podge of games and miniatures that blur the lines between the two and ultimately neither the board game or wargame camp is entirely happy.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone mentioned that at the open day they had staff asking people to fill out a survey that was basically "why isn't deadzone selling/being played" ...... I know a common thing people talked about was the figures. If you are Mantic then you gave to looking at FFG, CMON etc knocking out the sales with the guard game figures requiring no assembly and then wanting some of that money. I' gave up assembling my deadzone and sold it on, horrendous figures, whereas the dungeon saga figures are great. Sucks if you backed the KS but that's the nature of KS.......
Well, I didn't get to fill out any survey on DZ. I like the figures.. barring the early restic mess. The rules are terrible though. I know there is a following but for me it's cringe-worthy and majorly unbalanced.
Ugh, this is getting ridiculous. I'm getting all carried away again.
Alright, here's where I stand:
1. Making last minute material changes after the PM has closed is dickish, and something I thought Mantic had put behind them.
2. I will not invest much faith in future offers of limited / KS only Mantic resin miniatures, bundled with pledges or otherwise. I don't think anyone should. Am I being unfair or unreasonable?
3. Customer opinions don't matter. Opinions on Dakka don't matter. Opinions on KS comments sections don't matter. In fact, no one's opinion matters, or impacts present or future sales or profit margins in any way. And by the way, even though the numbers don't support it, for every critic there's someone happy about this change, so it all balances out 50 / 50, even though it doesn't. If Mantic do something their customers don't like, we should pat them on the back and encourage them to do it more often, so they become a better business. There are always other customers, and "We don't need your money, anyway" is the motto of businesses around the globe, which is why none of them have customer relations departments. The sky is orange, too.
4. On balance, this change actually benefits me in some ways - I'd rather have boardgame plastic versions of figures than metal ones. Not a total loss. But I don't like losing high value resins that influenced my decision to pledge, and I don't like the way Mantic have handled this. So far.
5. The formulaic Mantic response to situations like this actually isn't "Suck it, guys. We don't need you, anyway." That's the formulaic response of some Dakka commentators unaffiliated with Mantic whose opinions don't matter. Mantic's usual response is "Sorry, but we had to do this for X reasons" followed by "here's some extra figures to make up." That's their precedent. It's one of the reasons I have been a repeat customer.
6. All things considered, I intend to keep buying and using Mantic products until I stop liking them or they become too expensive for their britches. But I'm already buying less, and supporting their KS campaigns less, and waiting for the final product more often before investing. I know I don't matter, but the number of KS backers at $1 during the Warpath campaign hit record levels for Mantic, so it would seem more people are approaching Mantic KS campaigns cautiously. Those people don't matter, either. In fact, anyone with anything critical to say about Mantic doesn't matter. In fact, it's all so meaningless that no one should ever say or write anything.
I know it's popular to argue this, especially when a particular argument is getting tiresome. But I don't buy it. Opinions on Dakka actually do have influence. I read Dakka opinions long before I started posting here, and they definitely impacted my buying decisions. If I'm the only person that's true for, then yes, opinions expressed here don't matter much.
But honestly, if there's so little at stake here, why bother arguing with me about it in the first place? My opinion doesn't matter, and neither does yours, so why are we wasting our time? I'm not out to claim that I have particular sway with Mantic or any other business, or that I'm better / more important than anyone else, etc. But this argument that nothing said here carries any weight whatsoever gets absurd fast. Dakka opinions have influenced my buying habits quite a lot. I expect that's true for most people here, whether they care to admit it or not, and for quite a few more people who read but don't post. Many game companies are small companies. What doesn't impact GW impacts them.
As for Mantic not adjusting their behavior due to complaints from just one man or multiples thereof, this is demonstrably false, not in terms of "your opinion is no better than mine, and they're both just opinions, so we have an impasse", but rather in terms of what has actually, factually happened time and time again. To argue that criticism can't impact what Mantic does flies in the face of the fact that it has done just that many times over. That responsiveness to criticism has been an admirable quality of theirs. Personally, I think your opinion actually matters, Mikes. Maybe it doesn't resonate with the authority and power of the voice of God, but it matters. And if many people share your opinion and express it, it becomes that much more meaningful.
The only logic I can discern behind "you're just one man, you don't matter, so be quiet" is: 1. "I find you annoying, so shut up", and / or 2., "I like Mantic and you're saying bad things about them, you meanie." Fair enough, I suppose, but not really sound reasoning.
And privateer4hire, please don't try to taunt me by saying you'd do exactly the same thing Mantic has and laugh gleefully while you did it. That's just silly.
Not sure if the next (licensed) one will be an exception. It if's something big and it's well done, it could be a real exception. Of course, it could also AVP if they pull the usual shenanigans post-PM...
I'm glad I only went in for $1 on the Warpath KS to get the rulebooks. These kinds of changes are why I'm really hesitant to preorder stuff on Kickstarter.
Pacific wrote: Having just caught up with this thread late on, could someone please very quickly summarise the material change and for what game system?
DeadZone Infestation at the moment; resin and metal for some models -> Dungeon Saga-style plastic by Dust Studios.
OK many thanks Krinsath. So is this just Deadzone, not Warpath?
Having just got Dungeon Saga, while that material is fine for a board game, I've always thought of Deadzone as more of a miniatures game and not sure that's a good change.
Looking at the kind of stuff that Warlord is doing with plastics with Gates of Antares, the Dungeon Saga material doesn't even come close. And compared to the AvP resins, it's not even on the same planet, let alone the same ball park.
With the Chem thrower and crew going to Dust plastic rather than resin I'm absolutely certain that the 'small' vehicles (veermyn doomwheel, corp mule etc) from the warpath KS will do the same thing
fair enough if they tell us that's what is going to happen before we fill in the PM (they should be able to shouldn't they?.....)
They should...but they didn't this time. I was pretty set to order the mules because good resin price. But I'd hate to have to ask for a refund. If they make them in bendy plastic I'm not as sure if I'm crazy for them for $13.33 each. Still not bad... but other things have come up, and maybe the new post apoc is worth waiting to invest in instead..
privateer4hire wrote: If I were pulling in the kind of dosh they're doing by following the same pattern, I would be a fool to change. That's not silly.
At this point, I think you'd be a fool to buy resin figures from a Mantic Kickstarter if you expect to receive them in resin. I think you're better off as a potential future Mantic customer knowing that they can't be trusted to deliver on that.
I'll bet Mantic would like to be CMON right now. Their impressive level of dosh is a complete joke next to what CMON regularly pulls in. What do you think will sell better at retail: Dungeon Saga, with its cut corners and errors, or Black Plague, which will likely be a pretty smart package? I can tell you exactly which one of those I expect to find on clearance in a year or two. Here's a hint: it's the one made by the same company whose products regularly end up there, year after year. I think Mantic could be doing quite a bit better than they are.
Do you always applaud when companies make a lot of money and screw over their customers? Do you think Prodos Games has done an admirable thing by taking so much KS money and refusing to ship the final product to most of their backers? I mean, they made a lot of dosh doing that, and it's yet to be seen how much it will hurt the sales of their property via retail. Should they be praised and encouraged for ripping people off? Because what? Schadenfreude? I don't get your motivation. If a company screws some gamers over and they complain about it, more power to them. It informs me as a customer and might save me from the same fate. It might even help get the company to change their ways for the better. Saying "Bravo, Mantic!" doesn't get me anywhere, unless perhaps I'm toadying for a job with said company, in which case it makes perfect sense and is morally admirable.
Saying "good for you" when a company switches materials on customers this late in the game . . . you're free to do it, but beyond playing Devil's advocate for the hell of it or vicariously twirling your moustache, I don't see the point, benefit, or motivation. Even Scarlet Squig is on record saying this is a legitimate issue. The KS comments are boiling over with complaints from backers without me having to stir the pot there at all. For Mantic to simply count their money and ignore all that seems both morally dubious and bad for business. If you're going to argue that no, on the contrary, it's very good for business, do you really think it's better business than having your backers happy with your product and fired up to give your next KS campaign a go? Do you really think future backers new to Mantic won't get nervous when they do a little internet research and find out that their most recent campaigns ended in controversy? That sort of thing has warned me away from participating in several KS campaigns, personally. Negative customer response certainly didn't help Studio McVey, who may be recovering now, but whose million+ flagship KS property remains as dead as the dodo. (Which is a real shame - they had damn good space horror designs.) Personally, I think McVey would be in a better business position if Sedition Wars had gone over big and made their backers happy. So they pulled in over a million on the campaign. So what? Think of the millions they could have made if people had actually supported the game afterwards. If their legions of backers had gone out and talked it up with their friends.
Whether you approve of them or not, you're not Mantic. My beef just isn't with you, and I'm not going to shadow box with you as a surrogate for the company. I guess if you think they're doing everything right, and that negative blowback from angry customers is completely irrelevant to their profits, your conventional wisdom / common sense and mine are completely different. We aren't going to agree on this. I say we let it go.
I don't back Mantic so there's no shadow-boxing opportunity. My point is when people continue to reward them for what they're doing, then there's no incentive for them to change course.
A backer asked Paolo Parente about this and he doesn't know anything about the change to "plastic" and said its a competitor not Dust Studios that are working on Deadzone they only did DS.
Vermonter wrote: What do you think will sell better at retail: Dungeon Saga, with its cut corners and errors, or Black Plague, which will likely be a pretty smart package? I can tell you exactly which one of those I expect to find on clearance in a year or two. Here's a hint: it's the one made by the same company whose products regularly end up there, year after year. I think Mantic could be doing quite a bit better than they are.
To be fair, the retail version of Dungeon Saga don't seem to have much errors in it as far as I understand. The problems is mostly with the KS addons and the adventurers companion in particular. The base game is very well received and by the time any additions land at retail they'll have had the opportunity to fix the errors.
The KS backers seems pretty shafted though admittedly. And even as somewhat of a Mantic fanboy I'd be pretty hesitant about backing any of their Kickstarters.
Granted, Zywus, and peace, privateer4hire. I got Mantic road rage over the resin issue. I do hope they resolve this better, but yes, I went a bit too far with my ranting. Just a tiny bit.
I saw that news about Parente's comments too, DaveC. Odd.
'These plastic miniatures are being made by Dust Studios, the manufacturer behind the Dust Tactics and Dust Warfare games, and the great miniatures in Dungeon Saga. '
from the update,
so either Paolo doesn't know what his company has signed up to do (possible as he's not the owner and clearly is not totally on top of the business side of things as the Dust KS debacle revaled)
or
Mantic plans to contract with Dust to do the work, but have not done so yet and are assuming they'll agree based on the dungeon saga work going well, being paid on time etc with all the potential pitfalls of production slots this generates
For what it's worth, even the Germans - yes, those wacky, easy-going, "Quality? Who cares?" Germans, of all people! - are in a tizzy over the switch from Resin to PVC. This is fast becoming a global catastrophe that will plunge the planet into a grim future of darkness and war and all sorts of nasty badness!
Wow. I don't think the world has ever seen the Germans so angry.
Mantic has struck dark deals with Prodos, Dust Studios, and mysterious Chinese factories, a true trio of terror, a brotherhood of badness, a convocation of conniving cons. Signs and portents all point to one thing:
Mantic is paving the way for Tony Reidy's triumphant return.
I suspect anyone who lived through a world war might disagree. In any case, I'm not surprised backers are unhappy about this sudden unilateral change. I personally find it more surprising that the word gak storm is used as is in German without a translation in the comments.
.... there's an update coming for DZ:I today - it's not hard plastic and it's not resin plastic. It is the same plastic used in the Wrath of Kings wargame and the Kings of War dragon.
Of course, if you are no longer happy with your choices regarding these miniatures not being in metal or resin we are more than happy to cancel those items and refund your for them. Just message us and we’ll get that sorted for you.
And finally...
I'd like to address the notion of ‘bait and switch’ which we’ve heard in the community a little bit.
We do not use Kickstarter as a pre-order system, we use it to fund the development of a project.
We hope that the extensive discounts you receive and exclusives you can’t buy anywhere else helps off-set the fact that you are not buying a finished retail product, that you are getting at least twice as much stuff as you would at retail for the same price for participating on a journey that leads to the creation of a product.
However, as with the development of any new product, sometimes things will change. We try not to change things - we don’t go into a project and promise something we don’t intend to deliver – and we try to plan as far in advance as we can. But there are some things – like volumes, like demand, like quality – which you can only try your best and plan for.
We did not think our metal quantities would be as high as they are, and that the miniatures quality would suffer as a result of it. We hadn’t had experience of the quality resin we were getting when we first started the project, or the reliability issues we’ve had.
Where we have to change things, we try and make it for the better, and when we screw up – as we clearly did by the confusion our last update caused – we only try and make things better and right again.
Of course, not everyone will be happy with a change, and as we’ve said before – if you think you’re not getting what you pledged for, we will happily cancel your pledge and give you your money back. We don’t want anyone getting anything they aren’t happy with.
We are a team of 25 hobbyists (and a few boring accountants) looking to make great miniatures and great games, looking to build an inclusive community that shares a great hobby experience. In this case, we’ve been able to take some of the great miniatures the studio has created and put them in a material we think is better for the game and better for the community.
We’ve had more than a few value-related questions back in response, and we’ll address those by putting more value back into the pledge level.
Anyone who pledged and is now upset over the bait and switch 'funding and development' "system" that Mantic's using - vote with your wallet and/or by taking advantage of the Refund Policy!
Maybe the 'few boring accountants' will then take notice?
Hello backers,
It’s clear that there was some confusion surrounding the contents of the last update.
Regarding the metal and resin figures listed in the update as being moved into plastic. When we ran the Kickstarter a lot of the feedback surrounded the use of metal as a material, and the plastic we are able to use with these miniatures is the same plastic used in wargames like Wrath of Kings, and games like Dungeon Saga and The Others: 7 Sins.
It is not sprued hard plastic like the Pathfinders or Night-crawlers or "resin plastic" like original Deadzone faction starters.
The figures will not be pre-assembled, you will still be able to build them yourself.
The material will allow for better casts than we can produce in metal, whilst reducing the weight of miniatures like the Veer-myn weapon platform and plague aberration, stop paint chipping, and has a smaller chance of the finer details breaking. They will be better quality for gaming, whilst also improving the quality of the figures that are remaining in metal as we can spend more time casting them and checking the quality of them.
Regarding the resins, we’ve recently experienced a massive drop in the quality of resin we are able to reliably get due to the demand we have been receiving. We recently refunded a batch of resin items for our Dungeon Saga Kickstarter.
With figures as nice as the Piper, Blaine on Jetbike and N7-117, we didn’t want the sheer quantum of resin figures we needed (approximately 2000 of each) to compromise on quality in a mad rush to produce them all.
However, we appreciate that some of you feel that we have taken some of the value out of the items, and we will be adding something cool and exclusive to the pledge levels that include these miniatures to make this up.
We think that $10 for the Piper (which is 3 miniatures) and $8 for N7-117 – both Kickstarter Exclusive miniatures - in plastic is perfectly reasonable and is in line with what we have charged for other plastic miniatures on Kickstarter before. However we agree that $15 for Blaine on Jetbike is a bit sporty, and will include something extra for those who have bought an extra one separately to bulk up the value.
Of course, if you are no longer happy with your choices regarding these miniatures not being in metal or resin we are more than happy to cancel those items and refund your for them. Just message us and we’ll get that sorted for you.
On Wednesday Ronnie has an update talking about the extensive work we’ve done on the rules, and will also cover the additional items we are adding to the pledge level and Blaine on Jetbike add-on.
Anyone who pledged and is now upset over the bait and switch 'funding and development' "system" that Mantic's using - vote with your wallet and/or by taking advantage of the Refund Policy!
Maybe the 'few boring accountants' will then take notice?
I know I have been. I only pledged $1 for Warpath, and I had forgotten even about that until I was looking up another kickstarter. I've had enough of it for the time being.
That said, I think accusations of "bait and switch" are a bit much, as that implies a level of malice there simply isn't any evidence of. The problem, alas, is that Mantic remains unprofessional and inept, not malicious. They lag significantly behind other companies in terms of customer service, reliability, and quality assurance. But lets not overstate the problem.
So, the company supplying the resin has been doing extraordinarily shoddy work. Mantic should just send the shoddy resin casts to the people who would prefer that Mantic not be agile during the development process, so that they can get a poorly produced resin model with which to wave the "Mantic. Almost." flag about.
However, count me among those content to not receive shittily produced resin or DB/DZ restic. Wrath of Kings models are pretty awesome.
Mantic has struck dark deals with Prodos, Dust Studios, and mysterious Chinese factories, a true trio of terror, a brotherhood of badness, a convocation of conniving cons. Signs and portents all point to one thing:
Mantic is paving the way for Tony Reidy's triumphant return.
This time, no backer will be spared.
The true test will be if Tony Reidy is running the show or not
I'm glad to hear Judge Doug likes the WoK plastic. The Dungeon Saga dragon didn't look too spiffy to me in photos on line (not the design, which I always hated, I'm talking about close-ups showing the detail), and I've read negative things about it having shallow detail. I have no "seeing it in person experience" with either the dragon or WoK, though, so will reserve judgment based on points 1-6 below.
Deadzone Infestation didn't go over gangbusters as a KS campaign, so I do wonder what numbers Mantic were expecting to get. But overall, it's too bad that even at this point in the game they don't have a full handle on what they can promise vs. deliver in terms of materials used. "Too bad" isn't a crime - it isn't "bait and switch" and things do happen that surprise people. Just too bad. I really liked that 1st Gen resin figure from Deadzone 1, and have never seen a plastic mini that matched its quality and detail from Mantic or anyone else.
I feel no shame in having been disappointed at the material switch, and think Mantic should have anticipated the negative responses they got based on their past experience doing things like this. Late game material switches always get negative feedback.
But I'm tentatively pleased by Mantic's response today on a few points:
1. They recognize that the inclusion of resin figures influenced pledge level backers too, not just the people who bought the figures individually. It definitely influenced my decision to go in for Lockdown. Good for them.
2. They plan to add something to offset the value loss. If you don't care for resins, you have no value to lose. But resin holds detail better than anything else (the trade-off is that it is brittle, especially thin bits), so for some, it was definitely a value loss. What they add will determine whether I'm fully on board with this or not, since I do value resin. But the fact that they plan to add anything at all shows that they are still responsive to backers, even if economists have proven that backer opinions don't matter and don't ever change anything. Seriously, this is the responsive "Mantic formula" that I'm familiar with and that I admire.
3. The figures will not come pre-assembled! Fantastic. Love this, love this. Better for better quality assembly, better for modding, and more along the lines of what wargamers (rather than boardgamers) generally expect.
4. Dust studios still is / isn't doing these. No comment from Mantic on that yet. The mystery deepens!
5. Replacing metal with plastic was and still is still a win for me. I'd be happy to see them extend that to all metal figures included in Lockdown, but this aspect of the switch is a nice surprise rather than something promised, so no problem on that count.
6. Offering a refund to all those backers who are still unhappy - which might include me if they make up the value with extra dice, I dunno - basically eliminates any further complaints I might have on the subject regardless. Nothing fairer than that. Many companies wouldn't be bold enough to offer that - like, say, I don't know . . . Prodos games. Good show, Mantic.
7. I'm proud of myself for never over-reacting or going too far in any of my previous commentary. It would be nice if I could write that sentence with a straight face someday.
Color me cautiously optimistic.
On the subject of Dust Studios Dust figures, which may or may not even be relevant, one of the hard plastic vehicles I picked up from FFG is already broken (a running robot, leg broke off with minimal pressure applied. Not a problem for me as I bought it to use as parts rather than keep it whole anyway.) The rubbery power-armor guys I received, though, having looked more closely at them, actually look pretty good. Not top of the line, and the fact that they are bulky power armor guys certainly helps (simpler design, less fine details), but they're nice figures. Definitely worth the $4.00 for 3 price I paid. But seriously, not bad. And absolutely perfect for converting to Fallout-type post-apocalyptic power armor, as some have already done online.
A bit of a rush here - and this isn't piling on - but it's clear that they did not expect this kind of backlash. The only "extra value" that they were giving before Resingate (can we call it Resingate?) happened was that people were going to get two veermyn guys instead of one. No offers of refunds, extras for Blaine, and seemingly no understanding that when people pay for "premium resin" they don't expect to get PVC.
I think that attempting to say that WoK's PVC isn't "restic" is disingenuous, as is showing renders of several of the models. That's going to bite them on the bum a bit later.
Azazelx wrote: A bit of a rush here - and this isn't piling on - but it's clear that they did not expect this kind of backlash. The only "extra value" that they were giving before Resingate (can we call it Resingate?) happened was that people were going to get two veermyn guys instead of one. No offers of refunds, extras for Blaine, and seemingly no understanding that when people pay for "premium resin" they don't expect to get PVC.
I think that attempting to say that WoK's PVC isn't "restic" is disingenuous, as is showing renders of several of the models. That's going to bite them on the bum a bit later.
Anyway, off to work!
I wondered about that, but decided not to comment as I'm not familiar with the product and wasn't sure if the pictures were of renders or not. Some of the pictures certainly looked like renders rather than production shots. Using renders to illustrate production quality definitely doesn't work . . .
I've got WoK, the figures are nice and sharp and have limited mould lines, but those that they do have are just as much of a pain to clean up as any other PVC
It's also useful to point out that WoK figures have fine/narrow parts like swords/spears etc made out of yet another plastic, ABS (lego)
as CMON have realised that however good their PVC casting (and it's great) is it's not good enough for the stuff that needs real sharp edges and thin lines for wargaming figures (as opposed to boardgaming pieces like Bloodrage) so they need to use an alternative for them
I wonder if Mantic has taken that distinction on board too ?
I like the material they used. It's good stuff. Definitely a step up from Mantic's restic, that's for sure. A lot less to clean for starters. Pieces retain a lot of detail, although some of the smaller more delicate pieces were a bit soft- mostly stuff like the Vampire's faces.
The big huge chunky stuff like the octopus and dragon I thought really benefited from the material.
Is it the best? Of course not! Does it get the job done nicely? Certainly.
Hopefully Mantic makes sure that cuts are deep enough to retain detail- that is my biggest concern.
I think I'll be okay with this in the end. Especially if it results in me netting a few extra figures.
...now about those Deadzone rules.... did we ever hear one way or another if the mat size change was official?
The new command dice - DZ:I backers get one regular set and 1 KS exclusive set with their pledge. If you backed the original DZ or bought it retail they will be available to buy in a standard retail set.
The full update
Spoiler:
Hi there, Ronnie here with an update for all things Deadzone, this time focusing on the rules.
I am really excited to talk about the updated rules and why we have chosen to do what we have done.
First off just a quick apology for the plastic vs. resin changes in the last update. While I think this issue is pretty much sorted (and hopefully today’s update will sweeten the pot even more!) I don’t think we handled the communication quite as well as we could. As well as extoling the greatness of the plastic, I should have given a bit more colour about the challenges we are having with resin – both because this is often causing significant delays to despatching Kickstarters (such as Blaine for KoW – great model – but the major reason for delays because of the quantities) and a few quality issues (such as the traps in DS). Anyway, we all know that any Kickstarter when it is still early in the creative process will experience a few changes – in fact that might be some of the fun – but I don’t ever want you to feel that you are getting less than we promised.
Which leads me on to today’s update. We knew people wanted to play Deadzone – great scenery, great models and cool background, but the rules were just a bit too tough to master. A steep learning curve and a few rules that always caught you out. That’s why we set about doing an updated set. We wanted to make it faster, slicker – more fun!
Jake and I spoke at length about what needed doing. I will let Jake himself talk you through the next bit….
First we tried small tweaks and general tidying up, but it simply wasn’t enough of a difference. What we needed was a step change in ease of use, so we came up with this version.
The intent is not to take away a popular game, but to replace it with a slicker and faster version of itself that retains the key elements whilst losing anything unnecessary. In doing this, many elements were moved from being separate rules to being integrated in other ways, so most of what seems to be missing is actually just hidden somewhere else. This process of integration has made the game play much faster and with a far greater body count.
When we started we intended to just upgrade the rulebook, but once we started working on it and saw what we could do – which is make a truly fantastic, quick skirmish game – we knew it was an opportunity we had to take.
He wrote a first pass, and I played it… and I played it again and again! I thought it was brilliant, but then perhaps it was just me. So I sent a very rough draft to the Deadzone rules committee and the guys in the USA and UK that I knew loved the 1st edition and were always playing, and the 3 Deadzone Tournament Champions from Adepticon 2015 – i.e. the people who were regularly playing the game as it was. And I honestly asked them if they preferred the new or the old version. There was only one answer – and it was the same from every single player. The liked the 1st edition, but they loved the second!
At this point Jake went away and worked the rules up into a more complete document. If you want to know more about his design thinking and the journey of the game pop over to his site, where he has been sharing his thoughts (www.quirkworthy.com). Since we got the script back it’s been edited and the army lists have been added. The rules committee have also developed the campaign system, which allows you to design your own force and see it improve over time.
And that’s what you have here!
- Just click the link and press download in the top right.
A new shiny version of Deadzone, and I hope it will get you to finish painting that squad (if you are like me they are based and undercoated!) and have a game on all that fantastic scenery and rubber-backed mat! The rules have been designed to allow quick and fast – but always tactical – play.
There are victory points to collect by grabbing key positions on the battlefield (and keeping them) – great for those fast armies that are looking for supplies – like the Rebs. There are loot counters – with a few booby traps, naturally – that give in-game buffs. And much less armour and fewer dice modifiers - so much more death!
We have also given far more choice in the basic army lists, so you pick troop types and then select any additional weapons & gear they are packing, over and above their standard equipment - giving you a high degree of customisation over your force.
And then there is the command dice – these really create the dramatic, heroic moments in the game. These are the buffs to allow you to do the impossible – but remember your opponent can do it too!
These replace the cards (which although a good idea, they were a little slow and cumbersome). During the KS we promised everyone an updated set of cards – and these will of course be replaced by a full set of the new command dice. (Before you ask we looked at making them the same as the Warpath dice – but ended up compromising both games doing that!).
This means that the only thing a backer from the last edition of DZ will need to buy is one pack of dice to validate his whole collection (I have already promised to give them a pdf download version of the new rulebook).
The plan is also to give another set of Kickstarter-exclusive special edition command dice to every backer on this campaign too, so you’ll get 2 sets – the standard retail set (for your friends) and a KS exclusive set (to show off with!).
We wanted to tell you about this with the plastic changes last week, but it made the blog too long (and too late because I have been slow writing it).
I am not going to tell you too much about the changes – hopefully you’ll discover these in the game play videos we have coming up, or better yet, by having a few games.
I will just mention this… on one face of the command dice there is a Mantic splat. This is the army special ability. This is the 6! It is what makes your force do something special – in keeping with their training/attributes but just that little bit unique, and it’s based on your commander. It might let you go on a frenzy and do another attack with a model (per splat dice!), or a horde rule that allows you to shuffle forward a previously moved model. This is a change on the surface that will make every game that bit different (just like the loot counters!!!).
Ok this is cool, I hear you say – but there are only 7 armies right – so how much different can it be? Wrong! Because starting with Infestation we will be creating a new army list for each Deadzone faction, based around a named character – and they will have their own unique splat (and sometimes even unique unit entries or upgrades). This will be an ongoing development so there will be new lists coming – meaning that although most of your force will use the same models from game to game you can radically change your force by changing your leader, and adding a new splat and some different upgrades - keeping every game fresh with only a little effort from you.
Ok, enough from me. Please have a read of the rules, hopefully a game or two, and let me know your thoughts!
Best wishes, thank you as always for supporting us through Kickstarter. It makes what we can do so much better.
How many years was it in between editions? It feels like it lasted longer than the KOW version a year or two schedule. I'm curious to see what various Dakkites will think of the rules. It kind of sucks for folks that bought it at retail recently and will buy for xmas as they'll not find out they are buying/bought an outdated version until too late.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Is it just me, or did Ronnie forget to add the resingate part of the update that he mentioned at the beginning?
First off just a quick apology for the plastic vs. resin changes in the last update. While I think this issue is pretty much sorted (and hopefully today’s update will sweeten the pot even more!) I don’t think we handled the communication quite as well as we could. As well as extoling the greatness of the plastic, I should have given a bit more colour about the challenges we are having with resin – both because this is often causing significant delays to despatching Kickstarters (such as Blaine for KoW – great model – but the major reason for delays because of the quantities) and a few quality issues (such as the traps in DS). Anyway, we all know that any Kickstarter when it is still early in the creative process will experience a few changes – in fact that might be some of the fun – but I don’t ever want you to feel that you are getting less than we promised.
I did not back the original campaign, but I did back this one for a few sprues of terrain and units, and I bought the game retail... will I get a copy of the new rule book?
In days of yore, I think Mantic would have gone further than just adding an extra set of dice in a different color (or whatever). I know that some here believe that this sort of non-response has been the Mantic formula all along, but to me, it feels more like a belt-tightening change. If anything, I thought Mantic's earlier reactions to this sort of thing erred on the generous side. Not a single extra figure thrown in? Disappointing.
One thing I learned from all this is that photos of Wrath of Kings figures look much, much better than photos of Dungeon Saga figures. I really like some of these WoK designs, so I found a cheap set of Ashmen - my favorites - online and put in an order. If they're good, hopefully Mantic's figures will match that. I think we can forget about Mantic casting weapons etc. in a harder plastic like Cmon did, though. That would require more time and expense, just for the sake of better quality.
Alex C wrote: I think the "sweetening of the pot" was the KS dice?
Right?
I assumed it meant he would be showing us what they were throwing in with JetBlaine to make amends. Last update they said they would show us our fabulous consolation prizes in the next update.
EDIT: If he thinks the dice are anything I care about, he's wrong. I pledged for minis. Dice suck.
warboss wrote: How many years was it in between editions? It feels like it lasted longer than the KOW version a year or two schedule. I'm curious to see what various Dakkites will think of the rules. It kind of sucks for folks that bought it at retail recently and will buy for xmas as they'll not find out they are buying/bought an outdated version until too late.
"Dungeon Saga Quality" tells us nothing. The abyssals I got ranged from Mars Attacks Martians to Mars Attacks US Troops in quality, but my Valandor was worse than a Descent 1st Ed mini. In fact, Valandor is a very good reason to be upset at Mantic. He cost $8, which is a bit on the high side for a boardgame plastic mini, especially since a Bones mini of the same size would be $4 or maybe even $5, but his details are so soft and anemic that $4 would be stretching it.
If my $15 JetBlaine ends up at Valandor quality, no amount of dice on Earth would shut me up about it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If my $15 JetBlaine ends up at Valandor quality, no amount of dice on Earth would shut me up about it.
But Bob, think about it. Dice, man! Maybe in a different color - or, dare I dream it? - even with a different special symbol than the Mantic splat? And it's exclusive dice, too, and there's absolutely no reason to suspect that Mantic was already planning on adding them anyway. They're sure to go up in value on ebay, too, just like those exclusive Dreadball Xtreme Frenzy tokens did. Ah, sweet plastic tokens with teeth printed on them. Why didn't I jump on you when I had the chance?
Actually, Vermonter, you have a point. If the other sides of the limited dice said "change media", "cancel print run", "ignore email", "stiff sculptor", and "mispack ", I'd be much happier.
PS: does the Mantic Splat make anyone else think of Bill Clinton?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Actually, Vermonter, you have a point. If the other sides of the limited dice said "change media", "cancel print run", "ignore email", "stiff sculptor", and "mispack ", I'd be much happier.
PS: does the Mantic Splat make anyone else think of Bill Clinton?
You forgot - "offer empty promises, stay in beta for 1+years but still release an unbalanced game, fail to proofred, tiny feet, mail your models in a paper envelope, clip sprues way too close to model and include sprue clippings anyway, blobby fist, retcon faction, add a beard to it, get your fans to work for you for free, bribe disgruntled KS backers, start another KS, offer same stuff in next KS for cheaper, and my favorite.. shrug off any complaints as growing pains. Looks like they switched to a d20..
I would be very interested in seeing what people think of the v2 campaign rules, since those are the main part where the RC has had input (basically re-writing it from scratch).
Strategic Assets were a pet concept of mine, wanted to include an optional element of area control and players fighting over key assets in a way that didn't require the use of a map.
As for the game itself, the only complaint I agree with is that pinning should play a larger part. Apart from that v1 was terrible and seriously needed a re-write.
The cards were a mess and turned into a mini-ccg on the side.. my Asterians pretty much became auto-win due to infinite re-drawing of Surge and Headshot from the discard pile via reliable triples on command actions, it got to the point where every model in my Strike Team was having a good card played on them every time they activated.
The game had a ton of doubles/triples results which were confusing to remember and often didn't make sense, especially in cases like 1 success vs. 0 successes =Tripling for Blaze away, and often killing a model with the damage (again with my Asterians).
The whole free actions and infinite fight chains were a mess.
The table was covered in counters and the game took a long time to play.
Having played the new rules I'd say it feels a little rough around the edges, but is still a lot more fun and less micro-managey/ metagamey than v1. Give it a try.
scarletsquig wrote: I would be very interested in seeing what people think of the v2 campaign rules, since those are the main part where the RC has had input (basically re-writing it from scratch).
You certainly won't get that from here. Everyone's enjoying showing off how impressive their tinfoil hats are.
warboss wrote: How many years was it in between editions? It feels like it lasted longer than the KOW version a year or two schedule. I'm curious to see what various Dakkites will think of the rules. It kind of sucks for folks that bought it at retail recently and will buy for xmas as they'll not find out they are buying/bought an outdated version until too late.
The minis, terrain, mats and dice are still useable. As for the rulebook, Ronnie has offered a free replacement to anyone who wants one, retail customers included. 50% off was a really good deal!
They had plastic bins full of battlezones sprues for £1 each at the open day too, I picked up a table full of ruins... now is quite a good time to pick up the old stock on clearance.
scarletsquig wrote: As for the rulebook, Ronnie has offered a free replacement to anyone who wants one, retail customers included. 50% off was a really good deal!
Thanks for the update. The devil is in the details though. Is that free replacement condition free? Or do you have to mail in the old book? Mail in the old book cover? Take a photo of your receipt and or box? Is the replacement a physical book or pdf? Other than mailing in the whole book, those would be reasonable requests depending on whether you're getting the PDF or physical copy.
judgedoug wrote: You certainly won't get that from here. Everyone's enjoying showing off how impressive their tinfoil hats are.
Rather than resort to ad hominem attacks, debate this:
1. There is now no reason to trust Mantic when they say they're going to produce KS exclusive figures in a given material that, to some backers, holds particular value.
2. If the material they switch to holds less detail / value, they will not make any serious attempt to make up the difference to people who bought the items expecting higher quality.
I generally like Mantic, have thrown a lot of money at them, and want them to succeed, but when they do things like this, I don't see why any of that precludes me from drawing these conclusions.
If you can show me how the statements above are untrue or unfair, I'd be interested to hear it. I'm not particularly interested in debating how insane I am to criticize Mantic at all, or whether or not the changes they've made bother you personally, or whether they're really all that big a deal in general. To be honest with you, in terms of how it impacts the product I'm getting, these changes, while not entirely welcome, aren't really that big a deal to me, either. In principle, though, I think this was badly done and not fair to backers. As a guy who likes Mantic, I think that's beneath them.
If you're just sick of hearing people like me go on and on about this, say so; it's more honest than insinuating that there was no reasonable basis for complaint in the first place. Meet me at that halfway point of civility and you won't hear another word from me on the subject. Right now, I just want my Forge Father sprues. (And I haven't complained once about the Forge Father heavy weapons thing. Unless you count the previous sentence. In which case, I just blew it.)
I will now invalidate any counter-argument you might care to make with an ad hominem attack, just to show you how it's done.
I'm calling you out, judgedoug. You're not a wargamer. You've never assembled or painted a miniature in your life. You know how I know? I've seen your photo.
You don't wear glasses, you have no beard, and you're not fat. That might fly in health conscious Euro-geekdom, but in sedentary America, it's a big red flag. You, Sir, are a football-watching, gym-attending, lunch-money-snatching jock, and a traitor to the geek cause.
I like what I've seen so far. Overwatch and suppression missing stinks go a degree. Suppression moreso. Overwatch ehh I can just play infinity and overwatch all the time.
Need some clarification or to reread the gear rules. If an enforcer takes a snipe are rifle is it a fixed cost in addition or do I subtract the cost of his old rifle? No restrictions like gear?
Anyone wondering about Grogans they are just regular Rebs Troopers and you pay extra for the weapon. The idea being to keep the number of troops with similar stats to a minimum and just differentiate by weapons/gear options.
Quirkworthy says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:34 am
Apparently the Grogans are supposed to be included in the basic Rebel stat line. I am guessing here, but I think that’s a reflection of the way they work in Warpath.
IIRC Survey Drones can hold objectives, and therefore gain VPs while they free up other models for the fighting.
but
Quirkworthy says:
December 4, 2015 at 3:50 pm
As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I preferred the Grogans as a separate line. I will be arguing for them as a separate thing again when we come to look through all the feedback.
I argued for Grogans to be a separate line and was overruled. I’d been hoping that enough people would take up that banner so we could argue for them back. We’ll see
1. There is now no reason to trust Mantic when they say they're going to produce KS exclusive figures in a given material that, to some backers, holds particular value.
2. If the material they switch to holds less detail / value, they will not make any serious attempt to make up the difference to people who bought the items expecting higher quality.
I suppose that's the difference between peeps like me and everyone else. I've been doing KS for years and years and fully expect that projects are very much a development especially when it comes to things that have literally not been produced yet. gak happens. I know it's a commonly held belief that all Kickstarters are preorders systems and everything is all ready to go and as soon as the funding is taken the big "produce product" lever is pulled. This is why I've never understood complaints about people pledging for concept art. LOL! why the feth are you complaining? for me, the only company I actually do that with is Mierce. every other company, if it's a "freebie", then it's cool if it looks good when I get it; if it doesn't, whatever.
Vermonter wrote: I generally like Mantic, have thrown a lot of money at them, and want them to succeed, but when they do things like this, I don't see why any of that precludes me from drawing these conclusions.
I generally like 'em too - well, I love their games, and some of their minis. (this is why I get accused of being a fanboy) I don't complain a lot because simply because of how I feel when I support a KS - is the original contents pledge worth it to me? If so, I'll pledge. All those "freebies" can be bags of gravel when they arrive. I also only add stuff that is complete - or near to completion (say, in tooling, etc) in pledge managers. If I take a gamble with something, I very much know that it is a gamble.
So, more often than not, my Mantic pledges tend to be the whatever level plus like maybe fifty bucks in the pledge manager. (in the case of Dreadball Xtreme, it was $1 plus some add-ons)
Vermonter wrote: If you can show me how the statements above are untrue or unfair, I'd be interested to hear it. I'm not particularly interested in debating how insane I am to criticize Mantic at all, or whether or not the changes they've made bother you personally, or whether they're really all that big a deal in general. To be honest with you, in terms of how it impacts the product I'm getting, these changes, while not entirely welcome, aren't really that big a deal to me, either. In principle, though, I think this was badly done and not fair to backers. As a guy who likes Mantic, I think that's beneath them.
That last part we can agree on. It always seems like "some jerk" makes an update and "hero Ronnie" has to ride in to clarify. How about just hire someone who is semi competent to do this? If the update had been worded as "look, we got too many orders, and can't find a resin supplier who can fulfill them. We are making them in plastic. We'll give you two, or you can get a refund. Hope that's cool!" then there'd be a lot less complaints. Certainly the normal people who criticize everything Mantic does, but that's background noise. I mean, *I* want my resin Blaine in resin, so it sucks, and they handled it like crap. But going back to my point above, gosh, I know that it's entirely possible that during the creation of new product that things can change.
Vermonter wrote: If you're just sick of hearing people like me go on and on about this, say so; it's more honest than insinuating that there was no reasonable basis for complaint in the first place. Meet me at that halfway point of civility and you won't hear another word from me on the subject. Right now, I just want my Forge Father sprues. (And I haven't complained once about the Forge Father heavy weapons thing. Unless you count the previous sentence. In which case, I just blew it.)
Vermonter wrote: I will now invalidate any counter-argument you might care to make with an ad hominem attack, just to show you how it's done. I'm calling you out, judgedoug. You're not a wargamer. You've never assembled or painted a miniature in your life. You know how I know? I've seen your photo. You don't wear glasses, you have no beard, and you're not fat. That might fly in health conscious Euro-geekdom, but in sedentary America, it's a big red flag. You, Sir, are a football-watching, gym-attending, lunch-money-snatching jock, and a traitor to the geek cause.
I've not read the rules yet myself but, the most important things to me in Deadzone were:
The 3dness of the board and the terrain interaction. - I loved how height was a big part of the games I played. And the terrain interaction with the whole 'cover for an area, but line of sight matters too' was great. I've been playing Batman recently and, while the game is fun, the terrain rules feel rather heavy in that.
Here's an example of the sorts of boards I played.
The other thing that I really loved was the massive importance of controlling movement in it. This includes surpression and pinning, getting guys into good firing lines, working out how to outflank thos epositions. A good analogy I liked using for Deadzone was.
"Have you ever played X-Com?" It's that feel that I loved in the game.
The elements don't need to be identical ruleswise for me, but I want to have that X-Com 'feel' to it.
Think you can get a physical copy as well if you bring your old book to a convention where Mantic has a stand.
Overwatch isn't as necessary in the new rules due to the alternating activation of one model at a time, you have more opportunities to react unlike v1 where a small elite Strike Team (again, my Asterians) could do all their stuff before the opponent got a chance to do anything.
A similar thing applies to Blaze Away.
To use a CCG analogy, v1 was like playing a "control" deck, you could effectively shut down the opponent with suppression, but it leads to very long and drawn -out games.
v2 is more like playing an "aggro" deck, things die fast, objectives get grabbed, captured, re-captured very quickly.
I managed to play 3 games of Deadzone v2 in the time it would have taken to play one game of v1.
This in turn will lead to a few more minis on the table being possible, which unlocks a greater spread of tactical options.. you can fit some suppression weapons alongside melee and all-rounders and specialists. List building for a 70-point Strike Team in v1 was very difficult.
It's hard to describe without playing it, but the game is now fast-paced and very action-packed, there are fewer restrictions on movement, things move faster and die more. Missions discourage camping.
The core of the game is the same, but it plays in a much faster and more enjoyable way. Unfortunately, on the whole, v1 was not a successful game at retail, and people did find the rules to be too long-winded and over-burdened with rules bloat.
warboss wrote: I'm guessing you have to email them directly yourself. It's not realistic for them to hunt you down.
j
Yeah, I figured it would be an active process on the part of the customer. Just didn't know if I would have to hunt down a receipt.
It's only been 2 years since the game came out but I know I don't have a receipt any more.
That's not as good as it could be but better than nothing I suppose.
TLDR: Mantic. Almost.
so like...
Battlefront: Perfect
Mantic: Almost
every other publisher/designer/manufacturer of anything that gets replaced by a revised version: fething horrible pieces of gak because you have to buy a new $20-$75 rulebook
so Mantic is number two in the world by your metric
I agree fully that Battlefront putting out barebones tiny rulebooks for free for existing customers (even if only for a limited time) was a very classy move. Is Battlefront known for ridiculously short edition lifespans of 1-2 years like Mantic that prematurely devalue your purchases? I don't play/collect FOW so I don't really know but I assume they don't as people don't generally comment negatively about them in that regard. If that is indeed the case then your comparison is not very good since (previously) most publishers/designers/manufacturers don't devalue their own products in 1-2 years. I will admit that by your very poor shelf life metric that Mantic is better than GW since they will give out free pdfs... but that is a very low bar to hurdle over. Mantic would indeed be like a 6ft Superman leaping tall 28mm buildings in a single bound.
warboss wrote: How many years was it in between editions? It feels like it lasted longer than the KOW version a year or two schedule. I'm curious to see what various Dakkites will think of the rules. It kind of sucks for folks that bought it at retail recently and will buy for xmas as they'll not find out they are buying/bought an outdated version until too late.
Not long for DZ. Hard to give exact dates since there's the KS date, the fulfilment date and then the retail dates. Do we go from retail of DZ1 to KS of DZ2? Jan 2014-March 2015 for both campaign launches, according to google. So 14 months. That's even faster than 40k!
KoW by comparison was May 2012-Nov 2014, so 30 months. Twice as long as DeadZone.
I wonder if we'll see a second (fixed up) edition of Dungeon Saga launched in, say, October 2016 or Feb 2017?
scarletsquig wrote: I would be very interested in seeing what people think of the v2 campaign rules, since those are the main part where the RC has had input (basically re-writing it from scratch).
You certainly won't get that from here. Everyone's enjoying showing off how impressive their tinfoil hats are.
You mean complaining about Mantic's poor choices in material switching, poor communication and poor "attempt" to rectify it when there was a backlash for (amongst other things) expensive premium resin becoming PVC? Those are tinfoil hats now? Mantic is on a run of extremely poor form right now between the issues here and the DS ones, and people are well within their rights to be unhappy and discuss those issues. Geeze, Doug, You were much more able to be a critical thinker when it came to MEdge.
The minis, terrain, mats and dice are still useable. As for the rulebook, Ronnie has offered a free replacement to anyone who wants one, retail customers included. 50% off was a really good deal!
They had plastic bins full of battlezones sprues for £1 each at the open day too, I picked up a table full of ruins... now is quite a good time to pick up the old stock on clearance.
Where is the free replacement rulebook offer located?
KoW by comparison was May 2012-Nov 2014, so 30 months. Twice as long as DeadZone.
What came out in 2012? The hardback that replaced the previous version and was significantly revised from it was in 2013. The KOW2 kickstarter that was to replace it was in 2014 and the final product was delivered in 2015 so that hardback version lasted as little as a year and change before they started coming out with rules to replace it (albeit PDF). That seems to correspond to Deadzone pretty well. Mantic seems to just like that 1-2 year lifecycle of usefulness in their rules before they're devalued. It's up to customers to decide whether a can of soup should last longer than an entire game edition.
scarletsquig wrote: The core of the game is the same, but it plays in a much faster and more enjoyable way. Unfortunately, on the whole, v1 was not a successful game at retail, and people did find the rules to be too long-winded and over-burdened with rules bloat.
The rules were primarily burdened with the sort of crap-ass editing and imbalance that's an inevitable result of every book being a rush job by a single man also juggling 3 other projects (and having a bit of an ego when confronted with criticism).
What needs fixing is the process, not the mechanics.
scarletsquig wrote: I would be very interested in seeing what people think of the v2 campaign rules, since those are the main part where the RC has had input (basically re-writing it from scratch).
You certainly won't get that from here. Everyone's enjoying showing off how impressive their tinfoil hats are.
I bought a tin foil hat, but they shipped me aluminum.
If we can't have a sense of humor about being screwed over for the nth time, then Mantic is the least of our problems. They certainly aren't the worst when it comes to kickstarter. Prodos and Palladium are so bad they aren't worth joking over. Defiance Games screwed over the backers in a blaze of glory that took out an entire second Kickstarter as collateral damage and nearly put two more game companies out of business, spending all their money on booze and strippers. Ronnie's really going to have to work to top that.
But feel free to dictate how we should feel when a company takes our money and breaks it's promises.
I checked my emails, and they got (and pretty quickly shipped, IIRC) the hardback KOW books in August of 2012, and they had a download for the mini-rulebook in June of 2012. The second edition was not officially released until September 2015, so First edition KOW lasted at least three years, and that's if you're only counting the time between hard copy releases, as KoW had free rules well before 2012. I'm not sure if I'm misremembering, but I also though Mantic actually sold out of physical hard copy books, and decided to revise the books rather than reprint old rules, which shows a real ethic, IMO. (GW, of course, expects its employees to hard sell a codex everybody knows will be replaced in a week)
New editions don't bother me when they are substantive improvements. KoW 1st was a good game, but the balancing of the army lists made competitive play pretty unfulfilling, although certainly better than, say, 40k.
While I pledged for DZ1, I never actually played the game as a game, so I never really got feel for it. From the comments I'm seeing, it looks like they're changing some core mechanics, which to me indicates that the first release was pretty flawed.
Either way, gaming companies run into a serious problem of addressing broken or unbalanced or just plain bad rules, in that if they do nothing, people won't play the game, but if they release new rules, people complain about spending money on rules that are now obsolete. The easy answer is to say that they should write better rules, which for KoW they really did. I'd argue that they could have created a tournament pack that would have balanced KoW enough to limp it through another year. DZ seems to be a pretty flawed game, so maybe burning it down for the insurance money was the best bet.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: while Mantic shows an alarmingly amateurish approach to running a games company, nothing to be indicates that they are in any way cunning or manipulative.
I am genuinely surprised that Deadzone was a retail failure. I thought it was an overall good product at a fair price. I guess that it was maybe a bit too involved modelling wise for the important board game crowd?
Plus somebody must be playing it as I just sold all my painted Deadzone factions to a US buyer for £320/$480 odd.
That is surprising. I wonder if it wasn't a success in that the customers didn't buy enough from retailers or if it wasn't a success because retailers and distributors didn't buy enough from Mantic. Considering how successful they made Mars Attacks out to be, I find it surprising that they seem to be burying it quietly by the side of the road while pushing Deadzone on every passerby.
Polonius wrote: I checked my emails, and they got (and pretty quickly shipped, IIRC) the hardback KOW books in August of 2012, and they had a download for the mini-rulebook in June of 2012. The second edition was not officially released until September 2015, so First edition KOW lasted at least three years, and that's if you're only counting the time between hard copy releases, as KoW had free rules well before 2012. I'm not sure if I'm misremembering, but I also though Mantic actually sold out of physical hard copy books, and decided to revise the books rather than reprint old rules, which shows a real ethic, IMO. (GW, of course, expects its employees to hard sell a codex everybody knows will be replaced in a week)
Weren't their beta WIP rules for download for the year prior? I suspect alot of folks playing KOW during that time were using those so I'd personally start the countdown at the kickstarter for 2nd edition; YMMV. Either way, thanks for the correction. The wiki has the hardback listed as 2013.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: while Mantic shows an alarmingly amateurish approach to running a games company, nothing to be indicates that they are in any way cunning or manipulative.
Agreed. They're more Steve Urkel ("Did I do thaaaaat?") than Dr. Evil for sure but regardless they both hit the pocketbook just as hard no matter what the underlying reasons. If a game edition doesn't last 4-5 years before being replaced (as opposed to errata'd or being added onto with increasing scope) then they didn't do a good enough job initially and should extend an olive branch. At 3 years, I'm fine with a free PDF of the full final product. Retiring an edition at 1-2 years like GW/DP9/Mantic's Deadzone is never appropriate without a suitable free offer to existing customers for the screw up (like the FOW mini-book even though they didn't pull their editions early).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That is surprising. I wonder if it wasn't a success in that the customers didn't buy enough from retailers or if it wasn't a success because retailers and distributors didn't buy enough from Mantic. Considering how successful they made Mars Attacks out to be, I find it surprising that they seem to be burying it quietly by the side of the road while pushing Deadzone on every passerby.
Or despite Mantic's vigorous propaganda to the contrary, they've been cutting their own throats with the Kickstarters. The Kickstarters fill up most of the demand for the product, leaving it dead on arrival at retail. Stores have likely seen this and won't come near Mantic product now, and even in the early days were feeling alienated by Mantic's heavy use of Kickstarter. I'm sure the 'release and forget' policy as far as their rules support doesn't help. While I hold Jake Thornton somewhat responsible, he is a contractor, not a Mantic employee. Mantic accepts and publishes his half baked ideas, then leaves the games to die. Or in the hands of forum users to try to fix all the junk and make something presentable out of it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That is surprising. I wonder if it wasn't a success in that the customers didn't buy enough from retailers or if it wasn't a success because retailers and distributors didn't buy enough from Mantic. Considering how successful they made Mars Attacks out to be, I find it surprising that they seem to be burying it quietly by the side of the road while pushing Deadzone on every passerby.
Or despite Mantic's vigorous propaganda to the contrary, they've been cutting their own throats with the Kickstarters. The Kickstarters fill up most of the demand for the product, leaving it dead on arrival at retail. Stores have likely seen this and won't come near Mantic product now, and even in the early days were feeling alienated by Mantic's heavy use of Kickstarter. I'm sure the 'release and forget' policy as far as their rules support doesn't help. While I hold Jake Thornton somewhat responsible, he is a contractor, not a Mantic employee. Mantic accepts and publishes his half baked ideas, then leaves the games to die. Or in the hands of forum users to try to fix all the junk and make something presentable out of it.
It's not just Jake's ideas.. they have set up a "council" of people who have no business as anything other than Mantic customers. Somehow though, these people get to decide what is and is not going into the games we all are looking at. These people get to just walk away from it and claim they were just helping or they did their best or whatever but for Mantic to rely on amateurs and go directly to finish product from that.. yeah.. well.. its' very telling. I know that might strike people wrong but frankly I don't care. When Mantic came along they had a lot of great ideas and the more I watched this community driven BS take hold the more I watched that glimmer of hope go down the toilet.
MLaw wrote: It's not just Jake's ideas.. they have set up a "council" of people who have no business as anything other than Mantic customers. Somehow though, these people get to decide what is and is not going into the games we all are looking at. These people get to just walk away from it and claim they were just helping or they did their best or whatever but for Mantic to rely on amateurs and go directly to finish product from that.. yeah.. well.. its' very telling. I know that might strike people wrong but frankly I don't care. When Mantic came along they had a lot of great ideas and the more I watched this community driven BS take hold the more I watched that glimmer of hope go down the toilet.
A designer, supported by a steering committee, backed by large numbers of private and public playtests with feedback, per title. Utterly disgusting behaviour, I hope they all catch a vigorous strain of fire squirts for doing that. I mean, who do they think they are, utilising their community to help develop games? That sort of behaviour ought to be stamped out right now, so they can go back to locking three designers in separate rooms with no communication, collating all their work into one book with no editing, and releasing without any kind of playtesting.
NTRabbit wrote: A designer, supported by a steering committee, backed by large numbers of private and public playtests with feedback, per title. Utterly disgusting behaviour, I hope they all catch a vigorous strain of fire squirts for doing that. I mean, who do they think they are, utilising their community to help develop games? That sort of behaviour ought to be stamped out right now, so they can go back to locking three designers in separate rooms with no communication, collating all their work into one book with no editing, and releasing without any kind of playtesting.
That dang rules committee making KoW 2 the finest mass battles game ever published! Get off my lawn!
KoW2 is the only Mantic publication, to my knowledge, that was "designed by committee". It's also the only one I would call truly polished.
And while I agree that exploiting volunteers doesn't paint Mantic in a great light as a business, claiming that the product somehow suffers for it is misinformed at best, as is the notion that "amateurs" are somehow less competent and accountable than hired writers.
Jake Thornton is a professional, yes? And apparently Deadzone 1 was a complete mess and a failure of a ruleset and a commercial flop, according to Mantic, but they still hired the same author to do the new edition. It's hard to imagine the rules committee being even less accountable than that.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That is surprising. I wonder if it wasn't a success in that the customers didn't buy enough from retailers or if it wasn't a success because retailers and distributors didn't buy enough from Mantic. Considering how successful they made Mars Attacks out to be, I find it surprising that they seem to be burying it quietly by the side of the road while pushing Deadzone on every passerby.
Or despite Mantic's vigorous propaganda to the contrary, they've been cutting their own throats with the Kickstarters. The Kickstarters fill up most of the demand for the product, leaving it dead on arrival at retail. Stores have likely seen this and won't come near Mantic product now, and even in the early days were feeling alienated by Mantic's heavy use of Kickstarter. I'm sure the 'release and forget' policy as far as their rules support doesn't help. While I hold Jake Thornton somewhat responsible, he is a contractor, not a Mantic employee. Mantic accepts and publishes his half baked ideas, then leaves the games to die. Or in the hands of forum users to try to fix all the junk and make something presentable out of it.
It's not just Jake's ideas.. they have set up a "council" of people who have no business as anything other than Mantic customers. Somehow though, these people get to decide what is and is not going into the games we all are looking at. These people get to just walk away from it and claim they were just helping or they did their best or whatever but for Mantic to rely on amateurs and go directly to finish product from that.. yeah.. well.. its' very telling. I know that might strike people wrong but frankly I don't care. When Mantic came along they had a lot of great ideas and the more I watched this community driven BS take hold the more I watched that glimmer of hope go down the toilet.
Actually the Deadzone RC hasn't seen large parts of the rules until very late in the process, a fact that is evident by the campaign rules (our only contribution at this point) having a whole "army selection pending update from Jake/ Mantic" placeholder in it.
The rules are being developed by another person within Mantic after Jake developed an initial version.
Anyway, we are gathering feedback and the rules will be modified based on that, if anyone wants to contribute they are welcome too, the RC will put forward a suggested list of changes based on what the community wants, if it gets accepted by Mantic, great, if not we did our best.
At the moment we're working out how to add a form of Blaze Away back into the game, this is a point I agree with and thought the lack of it didn't feel right in my own playtest games last month.
1. Have more weapons with the Suppression rule (this is where BA has gone to it seems).
2. In conjunction with the point above, have some weapons able to fire for suppression OR to kill (alternate modes).
scarletsquig wrote: Actually the Deadzone RC hasn't seen large parts of the rules until very late in the process, a fact that is evident by the campaign rules (our only contribution at this point) having a whole "army selection pending update from Jake/ Mantic" placeholder in it.
The rules are being developed by another person within Mantic after Jake developed an initial version.
Regarding feedback, I'm hearing a lot of chatter regarding the weapon lists, such as: they appear fiddly to execute and keep track of, are oddly costed, are by any reasonable standard so various that they are impossible to fully test / balance in time for publication, and are so unrestricted at the moment that pretty much any model can field any weapon.
Some are against this new weapon list being kept at all, others think at least reigning in which models can have access to which weapons (so you don't have Zees walking around with Polaris cannons) makes good common sense, reinforces the narrative fluff of the Warpath universe, and hopefully makes the game easier to balance out.
And if it is primarily there for the campaign rules, which people seem to like on the whole, maybe alternate weapons should be kept there separate from one-off gameplay? From the outside looking in, it does seem like it could get confusing, involved, and problematic for a game that wants to streamline itself and lead to faster set-up / play.
As far as the major changes coming from an unnamed person within Mantic rather than the rules committee - and the rules committee not even getting to see most of the major rules changes - my hope that we'd get an improved, balanced, and tested Deadzone ruleset is diminished. It's hard to put out a balanced game of this complexity in the first edition as it is; so many issues only come out after players have at them over the years. So I was hoping Deadzone 2.0, even though its coming a bit early, would really clean up the game in a positive way. I'm not necessarily against Mantic changing the 1st edition rules and making the game radically different in principle, but this is clearly no longer about a rules committee vetting ideas that the original designer has put forth. Instead, a second designer is making sweeping changes the rules committee doesn't get to see until it's late in the game. Particularly if Mantic intend to release the new rules in February, I fully expect that whatever the new virtues of Deadzone 2.0 are, it will be as in need of repair and balancing as the current Deadzone.
I'm staying in regardless, because even if the rules are poor, I want my space ratmen, and the ratmen I want will never be this cheap to obtain again - at least, not when bought directly from Mantic. (Clearance in a year or two at Miniature Market is another story. But one does wonder how long Miniature Market will be willing to continue stocking Mantic at all, with their clearance of Mantic products at firesale prices being almost a guaranteed yearly event now. And if Miniature Market ever stops stocking Mantic products altogether, good luck counting on getting Mantic product reliably at good clearance prices in the USA. It can happen at other stores, but not with as good a discount, and not as reliably.) With shipping going up appreciably for US customers as of the Warpath KS, I'm much better off getting the new Veer-myn and Forge Fathers via my US-shipping-subsidized Deadzone Infestation pledge. Put that in your woogambas, tlingtz, and hopay salay and smoke it, rest-of-the-world-US-shipping-price-increase-Schadenfreuders. And if you don't even know what any of those are, maybe you shouldn't be accusing the USA of being insular and ignorant about the rest of the world, as you clearly have some studying to do. Or maybe I just made those words up. In which case, feel free to feel superior.
That said, there do seem to be more people on the KS pages rage-quitting / asking for a refund based on the rules changes than normal. (Assuming a good number are actually following through, of course.)
Not liking these new rules. Blaze away made pinning a key concept of the game, and the two different levels of pinning added further importance and tactical consideration to it. That's now gone. The doubling/tripling rules for dice tests also added extra excitement when you made a really good roll and made for some very cinematic moments. That's now gone. The command cards were flawed in their implementation, but were immensely satisfying to use, and there was a lot of variety. They're now gone, and the command dice are pretty limited in comparison. I feel like the things that made DZ unique and cinematic, the things I enjoyed the most, have been removed or diminished, which is very disappoint, seeing as I love the original rules so much. Command-moving a Sniper onto a roof and taking a clear shot using a Headshot card, burying a Plague Stage 1 under a torrent of dice, stopping the enemy in his tracks with some well-placed blaze aways... that gak was awesome. They needed some reworking, and there was some convoluted stuff, sure, but I felt that the core was sound. The new Campaign system seems better, and I like some stuff (speed stat f e), I'll have to play v2 obviously, but I'm not as excited as I thought I'd be, not by a long shot.
The game looks to have been stripped back. However, that's not to now say that the things that made DZ for people cannot be layered back on to the new core mechanics. What's needed I would suggest is lots of batreps and balancing and then feedback on where things need adjusting and work still.
Mymearan wrote: Not liking these new rules. Blaze away made pinning a key concept of the game, and the two different levels of pinning added further importance and tactical consideration to it. That's now gone. The doubling/tripling rules for dice tests also added extra excitement when you made a really good roll and made for some very cinematic moments. That's now gone. The command cards were flawed in their implementation, but were immensely satisfying to use, and there was a lot of variety. They're now gone, and the command dice are pretty limited in comparison. I feel like the things that made DZ unique and cinematic, the things I enjoyed the most, have been removed or diminished, which is very disappoint, seeing as I love the original rules so much. Command-moving a Sniper onto a roof and taking a clear shot using a Headshot card, burying a Plague Stage 1 under a torrent of dice, stopping the enemy in his tracks with some well-placed blaze aways... that gak was awesome. They needed some reworking, and there was some convoluted stuff, sure, but I felt that the core was sound. The new Campaign system seems better, and I like some stuff (speed stat f e), I'll have to play v2 obviously, but I'm not as excited as I thought I'd be, not by a long shot.
Got to highly disagree with most things here.
Blaze away was horrid. Most of the time unless you were a hgh AP weapon or an amazing weapon like the sniper, you always blazed away as it was better. No tactics here. It didnt suffer the penalties as shooting did for whatever dumb reason (such as range)
Two levels of pinning made the game drag on horribly long. This was made to be a fast skirmish game, not everyone massivly pinned and nothing happening. Plus spending all your time getting up just to be pinned again.
Double tripple was a neat idea. But to speed up the game I accept and understand why it was removed.
The cards were also terrible. It was a counterspell fest. Oh +1 shooting? I have +1 def, over and over. Not to mention the first turn auto activate a enemy model for the round.
Id rather the rules stripped down and more simple so the game is a fast paced skirmish then drawn out and boring with no one dieing.
^ Agree. Liked the concept of Blaze Away, but it was very poorly implemented. If it comes back it will not be anything like the previous version with the "double range with no negatives" "1 success v 0 success = tripled", "everything in the cube is hit" stuff.
that said the rules are wip, and my friends and i read them and a had few games we find them fun, and about the retail not selling, a lot of people were put off by the fact you had to buy multiple rules ad the ks exclusive characters
The pledge manager is about to enter testing tomorrow. No release date yet
The Rules
The mass-battle game - needs more feedback and balancing to get the points and power levels correct.
Firefight has a set of core rules but they can't cater to everyone's taste so they want comments on what people want it to be. Reads very much like they don't have a great deal done or ready to show yet.
The Miniatures same list as DZ:I going to PVC with a caveat "Figures not included in this list will remain in the material originally stated for now, but there may be a couple of changes to other models later in production." Still no word on price changes or extras due to the change from resin to PVC.
We do about hundred points, it's great. As a rebs player ive won quite a few games,
Ok no blaze away or overwatch has caused some issues from time to time but nothing changing tactics doesn't help.
we've had a few fast games and a couple of really long ones too. oO average between 45 mins to about two hours
KoW by comparison was May 2012-Nov 2014, so 30 months. Twice as long as DeadZone.
What came out in 2012? The hardback that replaced the previous version and was significantly revised from it was in 2013. The KOW2 kickstarter that was to replace it was in 2014 and the final product was delivered in 2015 so that hardback version lasted as little as a year and change before they started coming out with rules to replace it (albeit PDF). That seems to correspond to Deadzone pretty well. Mantic seems to just like that 1-2 year lifecycle of usefulness in their rules before they're devalued. It's up to customers to decide whether a can of soup should last longer than an entire game edition.
Those were the KS dates for both. I don't recall when fulfilment was, or when they hit retail, but it still felt a decent chunk longer than DZ, which didn't even last a year.
Kickstarter <no-reply@kickstarter.com>
14 Jan
to me
Kickstarter
#167
Keeping the peace
Posted by Mantic Games
On Friday 16th January we will have completed shipping the Deadzone Kickstarter.
I'll agree that the second KS cut short KoW's lifespan, since I did stop bothering to play KoW at the end of 2014 though, since it felt like there wasn't much point becoming more familiar with rules that were about to be superseded, but it was still longer than DZ1 which had a lifespan shorter than a mayfly. I think the problem is that Mantic don't playtest properly/enough/thoroughly enough and so we can count on most of their "new" projects having the holes picked out of them in the year or so following release - and hence a second edition. I imagine the same will happen in a year or so with a re-release KS for a rewritten DKQ.
New editions don't bother me when they are substantive improvements. KoW 1st was a good game, but the balancing of the army lists made competitive play pretty unfulfilling, although certainly better than, say, 40k.
While I pledged for DZ1, I never actually played the game as a game, so I never really got feel for it. From the comments I'm seeing, it looks like they're changing some core mechanics, which to me indicates that the first release was pretty flawed.
Either way, gaming companies run into a serious problem of addressing broken or unbalanced or just plain bad rules, in that if they do nothing, people won't play the game, but if they release new rules, people complain about spending money on rules that are now obsolete. The easy answer is to say that they should write better rules, which for KoW they really did. I'd argue that they could have created a tournament pack that would have balanced KoW enough to limp it through another year. DZ seems to be a pretty flawed game, so maybe burning it down for the insurance money was the best bet.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: while Mantic shows an alarmingly amateurish approach to running a games company, nothing to be indicates that they are in any way cunning or manipulative.
The rules were primarily burdened with the sort of crap-ass editing and imbalance that's an inevitable result of every book being a rush job by a single man also juggling 3 other projects (and having a bit of an ego when confronted with criticism).
What needs fixing is the process, not the mechanics.
I'm quite happy to give the credit for KoW V.2 (3!) being as good as it is because of all the hard (unpaid) work that the Rules Committee put in, as well as their ability to open the rules up to the community for proper playtesting. Even so, I thought the time allowed for playtesting was woefully short, and I suspect that the two additional armies in the Not-Ravening Hordes book will suffer from a lack of public, open playtest and feedback like most of Mantic's other "closed" rules have.
If we can't have a sense of humor about being screwed over for the nth time, then Mantic is the least of our problems. They certainly aren't the worst when it comes to kickstarter. Prodos and Palladium are so bad they aren't worth joking over. Defiance Games screwed over the backers in a blaze of glory that took out an entire second Kickstarter as collateral damage and nearly put two more game companies out of business, spending all their money on booze and strippers. Ronnie's really going to have to work to top that.
But feel free to dictate how we should feel when a company takes our money and breaks it's promises.
Well put, Bob. I used the last of my aluminium hat up this morning while frying up some bacon on the grill. Delicious!
It's not just Jake's ideas.. they have set up a "council" of people who have no business as anything other than Mantic customers. Somehow though, these people get to decide what is and is not going into the games we all are looking at. These people get to just walk away from it and claim they were just helping or they did their best or whatever but for Mantic to rely on amateurs and go directly to finish product from that.. yeah.. well.. its' very telling.
I agree with you insomuch that I think people like Matt and Daedle should be paid for their work like any other freelancers. There's no "magic touch" that transforms someone from a normal member of the gaming community (or "amateur") into a "professional games designer", and to suggest that people who are skilled at something (for example, rules writing) can't do so with any skill or talent while holding other jobs is silly. Did you know Nigel Stillman is a postman these days? JudgeDoug has written some decent wargame rules. (that I never had time to feedback/critique properly - sorry Doug!)
Automatically Appended Next Post: edit - Sorry Red. Just saw your Mod stuff when I turned the page just now. Please don't delete it though - anyone who wants to reply can quote me and start a new thread in Discussions.
A postman? Well I hope he's happy, but I'd call that a net loss for the industry. I still remember his wonderful articles about the ethos of army building!
Things that the Deadzone RC are going to be looking at sorting out with the Deadzone beta:
- Height advantage returning.
- Blaze Away returning in a simplified form.
- Rebalancing Indirect and Blast (early playtests indicate that they're broken).
- Fixing the army list chaos (invisible grogans and polaris cannon zees!)
- Adding some background to the campaign section to better explain that it isn't just scavenging for bottlecaps.
Cards and Overwatch are things not likely to come back, the latter mainly because the new rules are very much focused on a mobile firepower kind of gameplay rather than static gunlines, and single model activations removing the need for it to some extent.
There will be a playtest survey for people to submit games launched very soon. For the time being post your games in this thread:
We will also be compiling a list of changes shortly for people to test and see if they like them.
Deadline for core rules changes is the end of the year, this is a fixed deadline. Army lists have another couple of weeks after that for balancing and points costs.
Mymearan wrote: Well I hope he's happy, but I'd call that a net loss for the industry. I still remember his wonderful articles about the ethos of army building!
I don't know him, but I would imagine being a postman is less about his pursuing his life's dream and more about the need to have a steady job that pays the bills and provides some security for the future as he gets older. If anything, it's a commentary on poor employment practices inside the gaming industry. One can't be 20something and live on peanut butter / vegemite / hummus and ramen forever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote: Things that the Deadzone RC are going to be looking at sorting out with the Deadzone beta:
- Height advantage returning.
- Blaze Away returning in a simplified form.
- Rebalancing Indirect and Blast (early playtests indicate that they're broken).
- Fixing the army list chaos (invisible grogans and polaris cannon zees!)
- Adding some background to the campaign section to better explain that it isn't just scavenging for bottlecaps.
You go, Squig and the RC commandos! Real United Kingdom Heroes! Fighting Cobra and Destro!
I just wish they'd allow you guys and playtesters some more time. Considering rules will directly impact the long term sales success of a game they've already invested so much in, you'd think they wouldn't rush the vetting process so much.
Those are some pretty huge changes for a beta, seems like its still in an early design phase if such things are still being considered? My impression of a beta would be that it's essentially feature-locked and more about refinement then development.
edit: Deadline end of the year? Honestly I don't see any way this could turn out well, except by accident. Introducing significant changes with a couple of weeks to playtest...
We will also be compiling a list of changes shortly for people to test and see if they like them.
Deadline for core rules changes is the end of the year, this is a fixed deadline. Army lists have another couple of weeks after that for balancing and points costs.
Well thanks to the rules committee for trying, but that deadline does seem more than tight especially with Christmas eating up peoples free time
DaveC wrote: The Miniatures same list as DZ:I going to PVC with a caveat "Figures not included in this list will remain in the material originally stated for now, but there may be a couple of changes to other models later in production." Still no word on price changes or extras due to the change from resin to PVC.
Pretty sure that means they're trying to find a way to avoid having to change some of the vehicle upgrade parts, ie the Polaris Guns on the Arbiter, from resin to boardgame plastic, because I can't see anyone having a good time at all trying to mate BGP to hard plastic. Just keep the kettle on the boil, we'll be here bending a while.
Really miss this. At first it was a "oh, I don't get a bonus anymore and that feels strange". Now it is a "Screw going up there to shoot things, that's where Frags and Blasts knock me off with no benefit. I'll hide behind this ruin under a bridge thank you very much"
Missed this at first, still miss it only on the really bad models that can't do much otherwise now. I think the game is going to catch too much flak if there isn't some form of this in it anymore, I'm just not sure what the right answer is while maintaining balance.
- Rebalancing Indirect and Blast (early playtests indicate that they're broken)..
Right now Indirect in particular is super oppressive. It is far far too easy to launch an Indirect shot into your opponents deployment zone on the top of turn 1, which while it might not kill much it will throw off their positioning for the remainder of the game. The only variant rule I've tried thus far for one game was to make Indirect not resolve until the end of the turn (so you pick the cube and mark it then don't let the incoming fire hit and roll for scatter until later). It still might be too good, but it at least prevents the two big problems I've had with Indirect (neutered Deployment zones and the "Last Activation Indirect, First Activation Indirect and pin half your army for my Mawbeasts or whatever to now pick apart"). Blast wasn't too bad in one-offs, but it got almost as bad as Indirect once you start upgrading models with it and Deadeye in a campaign.
- Fixing the army list chaos (invisible grogans and polaris cannon zees!).
I've been avoiding doing the incredibly silly things as I assumed that there was some rule or table that just didn't make it. Still hard to tell if I can do things like Double-Drill Stalkers so I'm interested to see what format this fix comes in.
- Adding some background to the campaign section to better explain that it isn't just scavenging for bottlecaps..
Enforcers are looking for those Strategic Assets (which I love, btw). Sometimes you run into a walk-in clinic and only get a Medipack, other times you find a well-equipped hospital and you lock it down as your new FOB. Guess some people need it explicitly stated.
Cards and Overwatch are things not likely to come back, the latter mainly because the new rules are very much focused on a mobile firepower kind of gameplay rather than static gunlines, and single model activations removing the need for it to some extent..
Totally fine with both of these now. Mission cards needed to die, and Battle cards are implemented much smoother by Command dice. Stat cards were really nice (and I hope someone makes good ones to have on hand for one-offs), but printing out stat lines makes things much faster and versatile.
I do wish there was some sort of Overwatch option in very specific matchups (specifically Enforcers and Asterians against the fast melee troops of Marauders, Plague, and Veer-Myn) but any implementation is likely to be too complicated so I'm fine with it going away as the original DZ implementation wasn't filling that role well either.
Deadline for core rules changes is the end of the year, this is a fixed deadline. Army lists have another couple of weeks after that for balancing and points costs.
Nigel Stillman was one of the GW guys from the 90's. I mostly knew him as the terrain guy in White Dwarf but I imagine he had a greater influence in game design in general?
I think he did the first Bretonnian army book, right?
lord_blackfang wrote: The rules were primarily burdened with the sort of crap-ass editing and imbalance that's an inevitable result of every book being a rush job by a single man also juggling 3 other projects (and having a bit of an ego when confronted with criticism).
What needs fixing is the process, not the mechanics.
scarletsquig wrote: Deadline for core rules changes is the end of the year, this is a fixed deadline. Army lists have another couple of weeks after that for balancing and points costs.
Oh well. Maybe Mantic will learn something from the difference in reception between KoW2 and DZ2. But probably not.
We will also be compiling a list of changes shortly for people to test and see if they like them.
Deadline for core rules changes is the end of the year, this is a fixed deadline. Army lists have another couple of weeks after that for balancing and points costs.
Well thanks to the rules committee for trying, but that deadline does seem more than tight especially with Christmas eating up peoples free time
Agreed. I thought the KoW playtest/beta time was way too short. This is a joke, and like many of Mantic's poor choices, it'll bite them on the arse later on. I salute your valiant efforts, though Squiggy!
Azazelx wrote: I'll agree that the second KS cut short KoW's lifespan, since I did stop bothering to play KoW at the end of 2014 though, since it felt like there wasn't much point becoming more familiar with rules that were about to be superseded, but it was still longer than DZ1 which had a lifespan shorter than a mayfly. I think the problem is that Mantic don't playtest properly/enough/thoroughly enough and so we can count on most of their "new" projects having the holes picked out of them in the year or so following release - and hence a second edition. I imagine the same will happen in a year or so with a re-release KS for a rewritten DKQ.
I think Mantic got lucky with the original KoW ruleset being fairly tight, and simply have no appreciation of what's required (particularly in the area of exposure to the public) to develop a solid ruleset, which is why they keep releasing ones with glaring issues in (Dreadball, Deadzone).
Azazelx wrote: I'm quite happy to give the credit for KoW V.2 (3!) being as good as it is because of all the hard (unpaid) work that the Rules Committee put in, as well as their ability to open the rules up to the community for proper playtesting. Even so, I thought the time allowed for playtesting was woefully short, and I suspect that the two additional armies in the Not-Ravening Hordes book will suffer from a lack of public, open playtest and feedback like most of Mantic's other "closed" rules have.
I think the fishmen will be ok because the underlying principles are the same as all the other armies in the game, I don't think you'll find much imbalance in units individually across most of the lists, if there is some, it will apply equally to the same class of units in every army.
Nightstalkers not going full public test is a bit of a risk no doubt, however, we recruited our own team of playtesters from players across the globe, we didn't use any of the normal in-house team, Alessio's mates or Jake's mates.
I think Mantic got lucky with the original KoW ruleset being fairly tight, and simply have no appreciation of what's required (particularly in the area of exposure to the public) to develop a solid ruleset, which is why they keep releasing ones with glaring issues in (Dreadball, Deadzone).
Having read those games, the current DZ:I beta, and all the Dungeon Saga stuff that showed up this week, I've come to a conclusion about Jake Thornton as a rules writer: his final submission makes for a great first draft of a ruleset.
He's good at making a solid core rules system and decent at balancing the forces, but you can tell which add-on systems interest him and which parts were required deliverables that bored him or he disagreed with. For someone so imaginative with base rulesets, he shows a startling lack of imagination with scenarios and campaign systems (see the difference between the stock Dungeon Saga missions and the crazy Dungeon Journal character missions!) He also can't write clear explanations of how rules should work to save his life.
I think if Mantic continues to use Jake (and I think they should, as long as the following happens) they should resign themselves to either hiring an in-house rewriter or continuing to rely on volunteer rules committees and Kickstarter backer playtesting. I've spent my entire Dungeon Saga reading time thinking, "I'm going to have to do a lot of tweaking to run this game for my group. I really wish this had gone through a rules committee before getting to me."
I think Mantic got lucky with the original KoW ruleset being fairly tight, and simply have no appreciation of what's required (particularly in the area of exposure to the public) to develop a solid ruleset, which is why they keep releasing ones with glaring issues in (Dreadball, Deadzone).
Having read those games, the current DZ:I beta, and all the Dungeon Saga stuff that showed up this week, I've come to a conclusion about Jake Thornton as a rules writer: his final submission makes for a great first draft of a ruleset.
He's good at making a solid core rules system and decent at balancing the forces, but you can tell which add-on systems interest him and which parts were required deliverables that bored him or he disagreed with. For someone so imaginative with base rulesets, he shows a startling lack of imagination with scenarios and campaign systems (see the difference between the stock Dungeon Saga missions and the crazy Dungeon Journal character missions!) He also can't write clear explanations of how rules should work to save his life.
I think if Mantic continues to use Jake (and I think they should, as long as the following happens) they should resign themselves to either hiring an in-house rewriter or continuing to rely on volunteer rules committees and Kickstarter backer playtesting. I've spent my entire Dungeon Saga reading time thinking, "I'm going to have to do a lot of tweaking to run this game for my group. I really wish this had gone through a rules committee before getting to me."
.
It's good to have Jake on board but dangerous to give him the final say. He seems to have difficulty taking on board constructive criticism and rarely seems to act on decent suggestions- and his general responses to suggestions boil down to " no, we're keeping it as I wrote it, I'm right and that's that." I have a lot more faith in the RC than I have in Jake, though his work is great as a rough first draft to be refined and polished by others.
I'd agree with that. But there's an even bigger problem now with Jake's "draft" first going through the RC and then through some anonymous Mantic intern who makes a bunch of changes without consulting anyone.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'd agree with that. But there's an even bigger problem now with Jake's "draft" first going through the RC and then through some anonymous Mantic intern who makes a bunch of changes without consulting anyone.
His draft didn't go through the RC, they saw it the same time as the rest of us.
We've been very busy, this what we have planned to change for the next iteration of the core rules, expect very rapid updates and reactions to playtest reports:
Sort of, but wouldn't that have been up by now? I mean, same with crazy bags/boxes; we're well past the point where it would have made sense to put those up, so those are likely not coming this year either.
Sounds like time for another KS, this time for crazy boxes!
Impossible to pack wrong and they can throw in a free copy of the DZ 1.0 rulebook to clear those out.
Given how many people are complaining about mis-packs and unsent KS goodies, it was probably a wise choice to not add even more things to be shipped before Xmas.
Speaking of which, have folks finally started receiving KoW packages for list/misplaced wave1 shipments yet? It's fething December and I still haven't gotten a single thing from that KS -_-'
Bolognesus wrote: Speaking of which, have folks finally started receiving KoW packages for list/misplaced wave1 shipments yet? It's fething December and I still haven't gotten a single thing from that KS -_-'
I got my DS stuff, without even a mispack. But no, I still haven't received any KOW2 stuff, not even my wave 1 items. Rich emailed me recently to tell me they had been shipped or will have been shipped or something and that wave 2 heads out on the 14th. I guess we won't know for sure unless something arrives soon. Even then, it could still be an extraordinary mispack.
I emailed them 2 months ago when they lost my KOW2 pledge and weren't responding to emails asking for a refund on my warpath KS. When they responded they said that they would do the refund minus the 10% even though at the time it was still within a couple weeks of the close of the project (30 day window for full refund), I told them to forget it and keep my pledge so I would get the rules and NOT do the refund. That was 6 plus weeks ago. They emailed me today that they refunded my pledge . Wonder if I can late pledge now just the $1 for the rules.
Thanks Mantic, you guys know how to respond quickly to customer service issues.
I emailed them 2 months ago when they lost my KOW2 pledge and weren't responding to emails asking for a refund on my warpath KS. When they responded they said that they would do the refund minus the 10% even though at the time it was still within a couple weeks of the close of the project (30 day window for full refund), I told them to forget it and keep my pledge so I would get the rules and NOT do the refund. That was 6 plus weeks ago. They emailed me today that they refunded my pledge . Wonder if I can late pledge now just the $1 for the rules.
Thanks Mantic, you guys know how to respond quickly to customer service issues.
Hey, I'm still missing half of my DBX pledge and wound up with the KOW rulebooks and freebies without even pledging for them.
Alex C wrote: They're certainly becoming quite the hot mess.
I'm done with their kickstarters. They're going down the tubes quicker than Mario.
You say that, but then I've just received the new Zombiecide which has delivered everything; price, quality, and actually released before it was meant to be. Sudden postage sent email and then it was here.
Although that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The thing I've learnt from AvP though is that you have to try and just forget about it until it gets there (not easy I know! Helps when you have a painting queue that would stretch to the moon and back 4 times to go through in the meantime..)
Alex C wrote: They're certainly becoming quite the hot mess.
I'm done with their kickstarters. They're going down the tubes quicker than Mario.
You say that, but then I've just received the new Zombiecide which has delivered everything; price, quality, and actually released before it was meant to be. Sudden postage sent email and then it was here.
Although that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The thing I've learnt from AvP though is that you have to try and just forget about it until it gets there (not easy I know! Helps when you have a painting queue that would stretch to the moon and back 4 times to go through in the meantime..)
I just got my Black Plague core box as well, but I think they were trying to lighten their final load and get some good cheer as well. It was always scheduled to ship in December 2015. All the unlocks and expansions are shipping once they are done with them which won't be till after Chinese New Year, but they sent one core box to everyone to have under the tree for Christmas. If you ordered more than one core box though you only got the one set. That was great on CMONs behalf, and they are not charging more for a split shipping (though this could be the reason for the insanely high shipping some areas of the world saw(tinfoil hat talking there). Either way Mantic is a sorry bunch that doesn't know wether they are coming or going. Good rules....but such a poor customer service bunch. At this point the poor guy (Rich) in charge of their service and Kickstarter info, just looks like the buddy from high school that they gave the job to because he was on hard times. He has called people liars in the comment section of the Kickstarter, told me in particular that he personally mailed out my package on xxxx date, then went on vacation the next day, only for his temporary replacement to the following Monday email me to say he sent out my package. I got the package the other guy sent, but still waiting on rich's package.
Alex C wrote: They're certainly becoming quite the hot mess.
I'm done with their kickstarters. They're going down the tubes quicker than Mario.
You say that, but then I've just received the new Zombiecide which has delivered everything; price, quality, and actually released before it was meant to be. Sudden postage sent email and then it was here.
Although that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The thing I've learnt from AvP though is that you have to try and just forget about it until it gets there (not easy I know! Helps when you have a painting queue that would stretch to the moon and back 4 times to go through in the meantime..)
I just got Black Plague too and it is indeed very nice, but that's CMON, not Mantic. CMON tends to deliver a professional product and getting increasingly better at it. Mantic not so much.
I've not seen the specific instance but there's a user called Chris (IIRC) who posts frequently on the KoWKS comments about Rich calling him a liar.
Not sure I'd put too much credence in what that guy says, he seems like somewhat of a drama queen, ranting to anyone who'll listen. I'd be willing to wager Rich told him that something he said wasn't true, to which the guy responded in the classic move of "are you calling me a liar?" and all that sort of nonsense. From what I've seen, he's been throwing all sorts of accusations around, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's been told that some of the things he's saying simply aren't true.
There's a guy in the comment section who also never recieved his base pledge (I think his name is Chris), he and a group had ordered together, but something happened with the pledge manager. Chris wrote to Rich and was told he would get his stuff, then radio silence. Chris asked again and was blown off by rich, and went to the next level. The higher up person looked into it and chris provided the documentation for it and was waiting for an answer, that never came so he got more vocal and RIch called him a flat-out liar in the comments section. THat happened at the time that rich told me he was shipping my package....which he didn't and his vacation covering person did . So I guess it takes a liar to spot a liar. A few weeks later is when Mantic realized their excellent pledge manager ate/lost (they don't like anyone saying that it was lost ) over 100 (might be 200 I cannot remember, but it is said in a recent update) pledge manager base pledges. basically they charged them for the goods, but when the numbers were ported over to the main ordering sheet for them to order product the base pledge levels never made it. THats why some people got their add-ons, but never the pledge level goods. THey were working on filling those, but because the computer didn't switch those numbers over they didn't order enough goods. Why they cannot just pay to use the pledgemanager that most companies use to solve that problem is beyond me.
Deadzone RC has finished its work on an official v1.5 release, and a new update of rules + army lists ready for public release has been sent to mantic for approval and release by them.
There's a guy in the comment section who also never recieved his base pledge (I think his name is Chris), he and a group had ordered together, but something happened with the pledge manager. Chris wrote to Rich and was told he would get his stuff, then radio silence. Chris asked again and was blown off by rich, and went to the next level. The higher up person looked into it and chris provided the documentation for it and was waiting for an answer, that never came so he got more vocal and RIch called him a flat-out liar in the comments section. THat happened at the time that rich told me he was shipping my package....which he didn't and his vacation covering person did . So I guess it takes a liar to spot a liar. A few weeks later is when Mantic realized their excellent pledge manager ate/lost (they don't like anyone saying that it was lost ) over 100 (might be 200 I cannot remember, but it is said in a recent update) pledge manager base pledges. basically they charged them for the goods, but when the numbers were ported over to the main ordering sheet for them to order product the base pledge levels never made it. THats why some people got their add-ons, but never the pledge level goods. THey were working on filling those, but because the computer didn't switch those numbers over they didn't order enough goods. Why they cannot just pay to use the pledgemanager that most companies use to solve that problem is beyond me.
I had the exact same thing happen to me involving Rich leaving for vacation and finding that out from Dave. Still have no idea if they even sent me the KOW wave 1 stuff. I'll sort it out in January, I guess. I also have a feeling they lost some of my info based on Rich's "who are you and what did you order?" response email from two or three months back.
The wait is over! We've now begun sending out invites to the Pledge Manager for Warpath.
You must complete the Warpath Pledgemanager by 11:59pm GMT Monday 29th February 2016 if you want your pledge.
We have already invited the Early Bird Advanced Warfare backers first and will be keeping a close eye on the feedback before we release it to any other groups.
Anyone know what material the birds are supposed to be? If its anything but metal, Id be sorely tempted... (hell, even in metal they wouldnt be bad, Id just be concerned with tipping.<.< )
Murder Birds metal but would be a prime candidate to change to PVC
If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce a mixed set of 5 metal 3rd and 2nd Generation Murderbirds. The Murderbird Swarm will be available for you to add-on for $15.
On a side note I've updated the OP to make things easier to find.
GCPS are set to be hard plastic. No word yet if we will be pampered again by having our sprues pre-clipped.
Murderbirds were set to be metal in the kickstarter, but given the combination of the DZ:I updates about moving away from resin/metal and the large number of resin/metal kits in the Warpath kickstarter I would honestly be shocked if they don't end up in the new boardgame plastic.
Well I'll be, the GCPS actually look good. Hell, they are even close to the artwork. I actually like them. Unfortunately, this means I'll have to put my faith in Mantic that they'll get my order right and actually send it to me.
I need those birds. Nothing quite like it out there, unlike pretty much everything else Mantic makes. I wonder how big they are?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I need those birds. Nothing quite like it out there, unlike pretty much everything else Mantic makes. I wonder how big they are?
Fair is fair Barzam. I think I need some too... At least the PM is open past my birthday, and I'll almost be back working by then... Glad it's open for a couple of months
I know they look nice, but between Mantic CS and the fact I bought more sedition wars sets dirt cheap I think I'm passing on the corporation guys. And I'll go the zombicide route for murderbirds so I can use them for both games.
Troopers are looking great. I was in for them in the KS but had to drop at the last minute thanks to bills :( Will definitely pick some up when they're available though.
judgedoug wrote: GCPS look great!
I mean, they're no medge epirians...
...but then you repeat yourself. Oh well, no accounting for taste I guess
I see a fair bit of detail on those legs that will never physically be able to make it into a HIPS tool though - stuff on top of the foot while you really need to mold the legs from the front, details to the sides of the legs that really won't transfer, in short: lovely design, but whoever missed the memo that these ought to be HIPS is going to cause yet another mantic-hatefest once the inevitably disappointing result turns up.
Oh well...
Yeah the face looks somewhat feminine though we'll see if that detail passes through the crucible...
Just got my survey invite, time to politely ignore it for nearly two months while I generate funds. Then we'll see how I feel.
I really *really* hope that they let us know what the new KS is going to be before March and the close of the survey. I'm not planning on spending on both and I'd like to be able to make a somewhat informed decision...
I just got an email from the campaign, having pledged a dollar... think I'm going to up it to include some "murder birds" now! Love everything about them... except the name
judgedoug wrote: GCPS look great!
I mean, they're no medge epirians...
Heh. The Mantic GPS guys look great in render. If the sprues cast cleanly and with no surprises, and if Mantic don't make any weird alterations, they will be the best generic unarmored sci fi infantry on the market. However, that's a lot of ifs for a Mantic product. The sculpting and proportions look miles better than the Enforcer Pathfinders.
I'll probably get 20 of them through the PM while they are cheap. If they don't pan out, oh well.
^That's kind of where my thinking is, Bob. $20 is probably worth the risk for what those *can* be, but I probably won't be ordering a full company of the buggers.
And the trucks are probably right out after DZ:I. I considered ordering a 3 pack of mules because in resin, that's a good price. But if they (likely, IMO) switch them to restic... I can probably just wait for retail. I mean restic won't be a bad material for them necessarily, but I'm less inclined to buy now for reasons that may evaporate before the product ships.
Ouch. I know it is a WIP - but the fingers on the front hand is *way* off.
There is no way (except for serious rheumatism) they could be bending slightly forward - when they ought to be pointing approx 45 degrees backwards!
Ouch. I know it is a WIP - but the fingers on the front hand is *way* off.
There is no way (except for serious rheumatism) they could be bending slightly forward - when they ought to be pointing approx 45 degrees backwards!
Spoiler:
That's some pretty sloppy anatomy.
They look decent. Anvil Industries did it better though IMO. Being in proper hard plastic would give them some value.
Anvil is in resin(right?) and has a weird (subjective, I know) aesthetic I can't get into. The fingers should be changed though. Being a digital sculpt that should be fairly easy right? We've just got to hound them? Sure they could have someone in house fact checking them but as long as it gets done.
Honestly the large shells on his arm bother me more, unless they're adding a grenade launcher profile and he's it. I don't see a second barrel but he does have a different gun. Should be laser tech though, always has been. Seems to be the first thing that gets forgotten by writers and artists though, maybe it isn't heavily emphasized in their instructions/requests/however you tell/ask them to do what they do.
kendoka wrote: There is no way (except for serious rheumatism) they could be bending slightly forward - when they ought to be pointing approx 45 degrees backwards!
Yeah, but this is in the future. Random stuff like "hands" are supposed to look different. I'm sure Mantic did this intentionally.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GrimDork wrote: Honestly the large shells on his arm bother me more, unless they're adding a grenade launcher profile and he's it.
Good point. What are those over-sized shells for? Maybe I'll just pretend they're futuristic grenades. That makes some sense, given their size.
I wish mantic would stop with the kickstarters and focus on developing the stuff they already have in a more incremental fashion, as in take their time and do it right. Or at least not start a new kickstarter until the previous one has been completely shipped.
Got my own survey invite and while I pledged for $1, I am tempted to pick up some things here and there. My only worry is how long it's going to take for them to deliver the GCPS stuff.
Vermonter wrote: Good point. What are those over-sized shells for? Maybe I'll just pretend they're futuristic grenades. That makes some sense, given their size.
Why futuristic? Go and google 40mm grenade, they look exactly the same, and the same scale compared to the fingers, and have been in service for decades.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I wish mantic would stop with the kickstarters and focus on developing the stuff they already have in a more incremental fashion, as in take their time and do it right. Or at least not start a new kickstarter until the previous one has been completely shipped.
They tried that, it didn't work. You have to make a big splash with multiple complete armies or nobody will play the game, so no money comes in, or alternatively make everything in an inferior material with cheap moulds like metal, which is what Warord had to do with Antares.
NTRabbit wrote: Why futuristic? Go and google 40mm grenade, they look exactly the same, and the same scale compared to the fingers, and have been in service for decades.
As used in Grenade launchers, which the trooper doesn't appear to have so it makes no sense that he'd be packing them, sure. As hand grenades, the ones strapped to has arm don't fit the bill. Hence "futuristic."
Well it's not impossible that troopers would all carry extra ammo for a squad support weapon that only some of them had (especially if they didn't need to carry ammo for their main gun)
(look at all the late WWII German squads weighed down with MG42 belts)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well it's not impossible that troopers would all carry extra ammo for a squad support weapon that only some of them had (especially if they didn't need to carry ammo for their main gun)
(look at all the late WWII German squads weighed down with MG42 belts)
but in reality it's probably just lazy sculpting
You would not carry ammo for the squad/team grenadier on your damned sleeve. Maybe in your ruck sack. It is (another) silly Mantic design decision.
Am I wrong in thinking that the GCPS faction starter is much worse value than the others though? You have $40 of the $75 taken up in the plastic troops, but then the remaining $35 gets you...a couple of PVC striders, a couple of weapons teams (which do have the potential to be more impressive than the image in my head), a small resin buggy (that is likely to end up in PVC), and a couple of human-sized metal characters.
I suppose, as ever, we have to wait until the last possible moment and decide. Although as we've discovered, that won't stop things like reduced sprues or changed materials!
Vermonter wrote: As used in Grenade launchers, which the trooper doesn't appear to have so it makes no sense that he'd be packing them, sure. As hand grenades, the ones strapped to has arm don't fit the bill. Hence "futuristic."
Are you sure he or she doesn't? You don't get to see the front of their gun for an underslung barrel opening, and that rifle in particular is different at the front end from the rifle that appears in the other three renders
I suppose, as ever, we have to wait until the last possible moment and decide. Although as we've discovered, that won't stop things like reduced sprues or changed materials!
First post. Lurking for a really long time
I backed for $750 USD and I also just got the Pledge Manager email. It's my first time kickstarting anything, so I have high hopes and am pretty excited...
I hope that 'hard plastic' is easy to work with like GW's plastic.
The GCPS Trooper WIP looks amazing, really nice detail, of course these are the CAD renders and not actual physical models. The front bit on some of the guns look like a lasgun, which I do like and the gun's themselves are very nice.
As for the grenades/shells on the left forearm - I think maybe on the legs, top of the thighs would be cooler? or both?
Personally, the more grenades and ammo present on the model the better ... some of my favourite models are the old GW Metal IG Stormtroopers below:
Spoiler:
FYI there was a Google spreadsheet on the Mantic Warpath Kickstarter page comments section to help with calculating base + add-ons, I don't know how it compares to the Pledge Manager yet.
Well, there's always the possibility that those grenades are a separate piece that can be glued on. They're probably not, but you never know. I'm just glad that so far, everything they've shown has been pretty accurate to their concept art. Those Murder Birds are actually spot on to the art.
Vermonter wrote: As used in Grenade launchers, which the trooper doesn't appear to have so it makes no sense that he'd be packing them, sure. As hand grenades, the ones strapped to has arm don't fit the bill. Hence "futuristic."
Are you sure he or she doesn't? You don't get to see the front of their gun for an underslung barrel opening, and that rifle in particular is different at the front end from the rifle that appears in the other three renders
Hard to tell for sure from a side view, isn't it? With that caveat, it looks unlikely to me that there's such an opening sized to fire those shells. But if there is, you win, I'm wrong, and we're both happy. Sound good? If there isn't, then I claim the sacred right to call it dumb. If it makes no sense, I would hope that Mantic are able and willing to change details like that and the fingers.
Incidentally, it looks like the minimum shipping charge for US backers is $12. That's what you pay to get one $8 (presumably metal? That's what they said in their updates, but who knows anymore?) Blaine figure or 5 hard plastic nightcrawlers mailed to you in the States.
Otherwise, it's worth fooling around with the your choices to see how it impacts shipping. Certain choices will land you at $25 shipping for spending $100 (adding 3 tunnel runners for $30 bumped my shipping up $5.) Other choices will allow you to buy $108 worth of goods for $20 shipping (adding one tunnel runner, one Tangle, and one Blaine Mercenary to my order for $38 instead of the tunnel runners kept the shipping at $20.)
We don't know what material any of those figures will end up being, and it's likely that Mantic don't know either, perhaps waiting to see how many are ordered before deciding, and they have wisely decided not to tell you what material these items will be cast in on the actual pledge manager to cover their bases. But they're still calculating shipping based on some assumption of the intended material and its weight.
On another note, could someone who loves the murder birds explain their appeal to me? I'm just not getting it. I don't mean to slam them, I'm just not seeing what the rest of you are, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing here. The details on the feathers impress me, but otherwise the design and the whole idea of murder birds just isn't clicking for me.
yeah full credit to their digital 3D sculptor(s) they do seem to be able to get their work to match up to or exceed the concepts. The more digital sculpting they do the better (IMO).
Vermonter wrote: As used in Grenade launchers, which the trooper doesn't appear to have so it makes no sense that he'd be packing them, sure. As hand grenades, the ones strapped to has arm don't fit the bill. Hence "futuristic."
Are you sure he or she doesn't? You don't get to see the front of their gun for an underslung barrel opening, and that rifle in particular is different at the front end from the rifle that appears in the other three renders
Hard to tell for sure from a side view, isn't it? With that caveat, it looks unlikely to me that there's such an opening sized to fire those shells. But if there is, you win, I'm wrong, and we're both happy. Sound good? If there isn't, then I claim the sacred right to call it dumb. If it makes no sense, I would hope that Mantic are able and willing to change details like that and the fingers.
Incidentally, it looks like the minimum shipping charge for US backers is $12. That's what you pay to get one $8 (presumably metal? That's what they said in their updates, but who knows anymore?) Blaine figure or 5 hard plastic nightcrawlers mailed to you in the States.
Otherwise, it's worth fooling around with the your choices to see how it impacts shipping. Certain choices will land you at $25 shipping for spending $100 (adding 3 tunnel runners for $30 bumped my shipping up $5.) Other choices will allow you to buy $108 worth of goods for $20 shipping (adding one tunnel runner, one Tangle, and one Blaine Mercenary to my order for $38 instead of the tunnel runners kept the shipping at $20.)
We don't know what material any of those figures will end up being, and it's likely that Mantic don't know either, perhaps waiting to see how many are ordered before deciding, and they have wisely decided not to tell you what material these items will be cast in on the actual pledge manager to cover their bases. But they're still calculating shipping based on some assumption of the intended material and its weight.
On another note, could someone who loves the murder birds explain their appeal to me? I'm just not getting it. I don't mean to slam them, I'm just not seeing what the rest of you are, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing here. The details on the feathers impress me, but otherwise the design and the whole idea of murder birds just isn't clicking for me.
Having to send out all the extra packages to correct misplaces/erroneous orders must put a giant hole in their budget. I'm surprised they don't pad the kid shipping charges more to help cover it.
The murder birds are just something new and different that i'll be able to dress up bases and dioramas with
I got a few pigeons from the infamy KS for the same reason, and some from Kromlech too but they're not 'evil' looking enough for general use and the murder birds will address that need
darkon wrote: The GCPS Trooper WIP looks amazing, really nice detail, of course these are the CAD renders and not actual physical models. The front bit on some of the guns look like a lasgun, which I do like and the gun's themselves are very nice.
As for the grenades/shells on the left forearm - I think maybe on the legs, top of the thighs would be cooler? or both?
Personally, the more grenades and ammo present on the model the better ... some of my favourite models are the old GW Metal IG Stormtroopers below:
Spoiler:
FYI there was a Google spreadsheet on the Mantic Warpath Kickstarter page comments section to help with calculating base + add-ons, I don't know how it compares to the Pledge Manager yet.
Welcome to Dakka, darkon! And those oldschool models are great, if these look like them once produced that would be awesome
GrimDork wrote: Anvil is in resin(right?) and has a weird (subjective, I know) aesthetic I can't get into. The fingers should be changed though. Being a digital sculpt that should be fairly easy right? We've just got to hound them? Sure they could have someone in house fact checking them but as long as it gets done.
Honestly the large shells on his arm bother me more, unless they're adding a grenade launcher profile and he's it. I don't see a second barrel but he does have a different gun. Should be laser tech though, always has been. Seems to be the first thing that gets forgotten by writers and artists though, maybe it isn't heavily emphasized in their instructions/requests/however you tell/ask them to do what they do.
Pretty much your entire post hinges on the idea that Mantic has some sort of creative director with the responsibility and power to oversee their production. I love that kind of dry humor. Bravo.
I think someone needs to build a Leftorium Battlezone for all those Southpaws that have enlisted in the GCPS
Since funds aren't due til the end of February, I think I'll be holding off to see how things progress on some of the other things I'm interested in.
Having backed both the original Deadzone as well as Deadzone Infestation at a Lockdown pledge, I'm not sure what else I'll really need at this point for Firefight at least.
I've got scenery for just about any size game now, and a good 20-30+ figures for just about every faction that I'm interested in... yet I pledged for an Advanced Warfare pledge.
Depending on the heavy weapon teams and Mule, I may go with the Marines just for something different. Hopefully they'll all have a closed helmet option!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Having backed both the original Deadzone as well as Deadzone Infestation at a Lockdown pledge, I'm not sure what else I'll really need at this point for Firefight at least.
I got Heracles, FF Vehicles, GCPS BG, an Interceptor, 10 Plague 3G, 12 Asterians, Murderbirds. Basically, all the new stuff that I wanted and enough to push my existing Enf/FF into Warpath range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I almost got 3 of the rat wheels but passed.
kendoka wrote: >On another note, could someone who loves the murder birds explain their appeal to me?
Brings back scary memories from playing Resident Evil 1 Also, ragged birds are perfect for a Necromunda setting.
... did I just hint at my age
I guess I see them fitting a post-apocalyptic or fantasy setting better. They'd be fantastic for a post-apoc setting. But it's nice that people like them.
Are these officially PVC plastic, or do they fall under Mantic's "we haven't decided yet?" material category?
GrimDork wrote: Anvil is in resin(right?) and has a weird (subjective, I know) aesthetic I can't get into. The fingers should be changed though. Being a digital sculpt that should be fairly easy right? We've just got to hound them? Sure they could have someone in house fact checking them but as long as it gets done.
Honestly the large shells on his arm bother me more, unless they're adding a grenade launcher profile and he's it. I don't see a second barrel but he does have a different gun. Should be laser tech though, always has been. Seems to be the first thing that gets forgotten by writers and artists though, maybe it isn't heavily emphasized in their instructions/requests/however you tell/ask them to do what they do.
Pretty much your entire post hinges on the idea that Mantic has some sort of creative director with the responsibility and power to oversee their production. I love that kind of dry humor. Bravo.
Hey. Mantic here. I got the bent fingers and all of the superfluous equipment fixed this morning :-). Keep the comments coming, there's still time before these go into tooling.
GrimDork wrote: Anvil is in resin(right?) and has a weird (subjective, I know) aesthetic I can't get into. The fingers should be changed though. Being a digital sculpt that should be fairly easy right? We've just got to hound them? Sure they could have someone in house fact checking them but as long as it gets done.
Honestly the large shells on his arm bother me more, unless they're adding a grenade launcher profile and he's it. I don't see a second barrel but he does have a different gun. Should be laser tech though, always has been. Seems to be the first thing that gets forgotten by writers and artists though, maybe it isn't heavily emphasized in their instructions/requests/however you tell/ask them to do what they do.
Pretty much your entire post hinges on the idea that Mantic has some sort of creative director with the responsibility and power to oversee their production. I love that kind of dry humor. Bravo.
Hey. Mantic here. I got the bent fingers and all of the superfluous equipment fixed this morning :-). Keep the comments coming, there's still time before these go into tooling.
Will there be options for left-handed as well as right-handed riflemen? (There really only needs to be one per sprue to be better than none.) Will there be enough fully-enclosed helmets for each GCPS trooper?
Can we take a look at the Asterian infantry plastics and give feedback before they go into tooling, too, please?
I wouldn't mind having multiple headgear uptions. Enough closed helmets for all of the figures on a sprue, a few open helmets, and some hats. A couple field caps and a beret or two would be nice.
@Mantic / Stew - I think it would be better if you made the Asterian droid torsos and hips/legs separate, rather than one piece. As one piece casts the poses will be extremely limited (you could only vary the head and arm positions), which will make large armies of the droids less diverse looking and less appealing.
Any chance that you could separate the chest/torso from the hips/legs, or at least consider it? Instead of just five fixed poses, separating the two allows for an infinite variety of poses.
One piece:...................................Separated:
I only pledged a dollar for a look, but those murderbirds have got me thinking, they'd add a nice bit of character to a battlefield as just terrain pieces. It's not a battlefield until the carrion feeders arrive.
Right now we're working on customer service issues and massive dispatch operations. We know that there have been problems and we are working as hard as we can to get them resolved, but we also know that what we have now isn't good enough. Ronnie goes through what's happening and changing in the year to come in this blog post https://manticblog.com/?p=14756&preview=true
There's more people in the newest post versus "we added a guy" so there's that much in the way of movement. Overall though I'd have to say it's an on-going issue for Mantic, which I don't think is a shocker to anyone in this thread.
In other news, the GCPS troopers are intriguing and I'd like to see more of them. Unfortunately Dropfleet is probably going to be shunting funds away from WarPath due to the way the PMs are reasonably close together.
How many KS have Mantic completed now? 8,9? How long have they been about now? They should have things like quality control, art direction and KS packing pretty darn spot on by now, but they haven't yet. Because of this I passed on the DZ:I, KoW2 and only put in £1 (sorry I mean $1) for the WP KS. I want to support them but I'm trying hard to find a reason to finish of my Enforcers, just need some Jetbikes and some of those transports (won't touch the Path Finders as I really dislike them). As Jake T didn't have a hand on the rules I may try them out. I've been mostly lucky with my KS deliveries but my mates have not been, one example is my friend was a backer for the KoW2 KS whilst I was not, I preorderd the book through the website and I received it on release day whilst my friend is STILL waiting for his KoW2 pledge...
Matt Gilbert was hired as well, I know enough about him to know that he'll do a damned good job of keeping things on track as Mantic expands.
He's probably the single most instrumental person as far as the success of KoW 2.0 goes, and that was while working for free in his spare time (something he's been doing for the past 5 years or so).
Do their KS usually overshoot the promised release date? This is my first KS rodeo with them and while September 2016 is still some time off, I do wonder..
Yes and no. Usually they won't have quite *everything* done for their release date and things, say, may slip from a Wave 1 to a Wave 2. Or things might be reorganised etc.
However, offhand, I can't think of a situation where, say, the Boxed Game component of a kickstarter has ever been late (in fact, sometimes it's been very early!). It's more situations lie, say, in Deadzone where the plastic models for the Enforcers which were due to be in the boxed game weren't ready, so they shipped the boxed game with resin ones instead.
The plastics were then (finally) ready for the 3rd wave.
of a mess with what happened with that Kickstarter...
Joking aside I have heard that mentioned and I believe they do Armada too, for obvious reasons.
) over 100 (might be 200 I cannot remember, but it is said in a recent update) pledge manager base pledges. basically they charged them for the goods, but when the numbers were ported over to the main ordering sheet for them to order product the base pledge levels never made it. THats why some people got their add-ons, but never the pledge level goods. THey were working on filling those, but because the computer didn't switch those numbers over they didn't order enough goods. Why they cannot just pay to use the pledgemanager that most companies use to solve that problem is beyond me.
and the gun's themselves are very nice.
