World War Z and Aeon Flux are the only post apocalyptic Paramount IPs I can think of, and considering they were both critical flops with the kind of people who'd buy in to related products...
Well, if it weren't for the fact that Warlord already beat them to it, I'd say Terminator. I suppose it's possible they could have received an overall Terminator license while Warlord's is specifically for Genysis, but I highly doubt that. Beyond that, there's The Boyscout's Guide to the Zombie Apocalypse (which I doubt) and WWZ-2 coming eventually (ugh). So, there's nothing recent from them that's post apocalyptic that isn't Terminator. WWZ was already a couple years ago. I think you're going to have to give us some more info, Squig.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be a published movie, or one published by Paramount specifically; studios buy up properties they have no use for just so others wouldn't get them.
For example, Dreamworks bought the Monsterpocalypse license and held a pillow to its face until it stopped struggling just for the lulz.
So it could be anything that Paramount bought 10 years ago, didn't do anything with, and now wants to finally pull some money from.
scarletsquig wrote: I don't have any more info, I'm just going by the current information we have publicly available.
Another possibility is that the post-apoc game and the license are two different things.
Not asking for inside info, asking what the answer was when you put 2 and 2 together, because the rest of us keep putting it into the calculator and getting "spoon" as the answer
So going through Paramounts previous film/tv lists... there is some cool IP there, but not really suitable to a wargame.
No one 'big' franchise that could be likely, so probably a fringe IP like Mars Attacks.
There is Star Trek... but I don't think so. It's also not post-apoc.
Well, it's only a matter of time now since Mantic and their partner have signed. The delays are what brought WP forward. So hopefully they release the news soon and not 'spring' it on us without warning.
Edit: Source - Ronnie at Essen Spiel.
I suspect it would be in the first half of next year as a KS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's also something called 'Monster Problems', which is 'post-apocalyptic road movie' that Paramount were looking at in 2012. Can't find much recently though.
There's also a 'sci-fi adventure' called ARES.
Anyway, enough speculating from me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... no more zombies please!!!
I'm kinda dreaming that Mantic was able to seal the deal by showing them how awesome they can make sci-fi Zombies... argh! =(
When I first read "post-apocalyptic", I immediately thought Mad Max... which would be awesome, though unlikely if the Paramount thing is also true... ah well. :/
Didn't they also hint at a necromunda style game? I think the 1980s movie Testament might fight both niches. It happens in San Francisco after a nuclear holocaust. Was done by paramount and its 30+ years old, so it's ripe for a remake, which could coincide with the game release. Kevin Costner and Rebecca Demornay were young in that movie . Could have gangs trying to scavenge and survive (necromunda and gorkamorka).
NTRabbit wrote: Gale Force 9 just got the Star Trek tabletop license anyway
What? Is there a thread on this?
No idea, but it happened back in July.
Gale Force Nine will produce a series of Star Trek hobby board games under license from CBS Consumer Products, the company revealed today. Gale Force 9, a Battlefront Group company, will launch the new series of games in Summer 2016.
Battlefront Group CEO John-Paul Brisigotti promises an expansive game. “Building on the great history and depth of Star Trek, the team at Gale Force Nine are creating a compelling game system that will explore all corners of the universe and bring gamers and fans alike into the world of Star Trek like nothing that’s come before,” he said.
Gale Force 9 has extensive experience with licensed games based on media properties, producing games based on Firefly, Spartacus, Homeland, and others.
Theophony wrote: Didn't they also hint at a necromunda style game? I think the 1980s movie Testament might fight both niches. It happens in San Francisco after a nuclear holocaust. Was done by paramount and its 30+ years old, so it's ripe for a remake, which could coincide with the game release. Kevin Costner and Rebecca Demornay were young in that movie . Could have gangs trying to scavenge and survive (necromunda and gorkamorka).
Does Testament have a gang of badass punk girls? If not, it's not much of a Necromunda alternative.
Deadzone Redux Movement
Posted on October 11, 2015 by Quirkworthy
Another little snippet from the current version of DZR.
I’ve added a Speed stat to the models. This is a way of including a lot more variation in the model’s rate of movement, and doing so very simply.
Speed is listed as two numbers separated by a dash, eg 1-2, or 2-3.
The first number is the distance (in cubes) the model goes when it takes a Move action. The second is how far it goes with a Sprint action. Easy!
Doing it this way allows me to remove abilities such as Fast as it is already incorporated into the stat line. It also lets me easily have things that are disproportionate too, with a Speed of, say, 1-5 or 2-7. In the old system that would have needed a specific ability to describe it.
The Move result of the Command Dice may make more sense now, as it is a move of 1, regardless of the model’s Speed. This helps balance the models that are naturally Speedy, such as Veer-myn (2-3).
It also gives me a nice shorthand if I need to reference movements in other rules. The effect is the same as either the first or second Speed number.
So, a helpful addition to the stats, and a very simple way to describe a variety of alien movements
This is great, it cleans up the rules AND introduces variation without complicating things. God, I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Deadzone rules. When am I going to have time to paint up my Enforcers though...
The Warriors? Huge cult following, like Mars Attacks, would be a good necromunda style gang based skirmish game with very distinctive gangs? Not sure if it's technically post apocalyptic as I cannot remember if they ever explain how the world got like that. Would be a fun idea, although a little short on sci-fi weapons and that sort of thing
BigOscar wrote: The Warriors? Huge cult following, like Mars Attacks, would be a good necromunda style gang based skirmish game with very distinctive gangs? Not sure if it's technically post apocalyptic as I cannot remember if they ever explain how the world got like that. Would be a fun idea, although a little short on sci-fi weapons and that sort of thing
The Warriors is a fun movie but it's not post apocalypse at all, it's just street ganges in NYC in the 1970s. There's already a KS for a game based on it so I'm not sure if Mantic could/would choose to pay for the IP.
BigOscar wrote: The Warriors? Huge cult following, like Mars Attacks, would be a good necromunda style gang based skirmish game with very distinctive gangs? Not sure if it's technically post apocalyptic as I cannot remember if they ever explain how the world got like that. Would be a fun idea, although a little short on sci-fi weapons and that sort of thing
The Warriors is a fun movie but it's not post apocalypse at all, it's just street ganges in NYC in the 1970s. There's already a KS for a game based on it so I'm not sure if Mantic could/would choose to pay for the IP.
The WWZ film is an IP both generic and terrible. If I had more respect for Mantic, I would say there would be no way they'd pay Paramount for the privilege of making a World War Z game when they could just do that for free.
The WWZ film is an IP both generic and terrible. If I had more respect for Mantic, I would say there would be no way they'd pay Paramount for the privilege of making a World War Z game when they could just do that for free.
Well, since they can only not screw up zombie miniatures, it's only the rules that would be terrible.
The WWZ film is an IP both generic and terrible. If I had more respect for Mantic, I would say there would be no way they'd pay Paramount for the privilege of making a World War Z game when they could just do that for free.
Agreed, there is nothing particularly standout worth paying money for, other than the name. Other than that it's just a generic zombie movie with standard army men and Brad Pitt(who is just a man with long hair and a beard), there are no characters or unique aspects to it, it's hard to see what would be interesting enough in it to bother getting the rights for. I'm not aware that it has any particular popularity or fanbase to speak of, I'm actually surprised they are making a sequel. I can't really even see how you could make a game out of it, or why anyone would.
The WWZ film is an IP both generic and terrible. If I had more respect for Mantic, I would say there would be no way they'd pay Paramount for the privilege of making a World War Z game when they could just do that for free.
Well, since they can only not screw up zombie miniatures, it's only the rules that would be terrible.
So now this thread has devolved into bashing Mantic for an IP that they haven't licensed
judgedoug wrote: So now this thread has devolved into bashing Mantic for an IP that they haven't licensed
For a guy whose panties got incredibly bunched up for me casually insinuating that you were a vocal Mantic supporter, you really do go out of your way to white knight for them.
The WWZ film is an IP both generic and terrible. If I had more respect for Mantic, I would say there would be no way they'd pay Paramount for the privilege of making a World War Z game when they could just do that for free.
Well, since they can only not screw up zombie miniatures, it's only the rules that would be terrible.
So now this thread has devolved into bashing Mantic for an IP that they haven't licensed
judgedoug wrote: So now this thread has devolved into bashing Mantic for an IP that they haven't licensed
For a guy whose panties got incredibly bunched up for me casually insinuating that you were a vocal Mantic supporter, you really do go out of your way to white knight for them.
So now this thread has devolved into Polonius bashing judgedoug for pointing out that people are bashing Mantic for literally things that they have not done
I think I'm going to pull my pledge from the World War Z kickstarter, all the sculpts shown so far are very disappointing, and I'm not confident in the rules.
NTRabbit wrote: I think I'm going to pull my pledge from the World War Z kickstarter, all the sculpts shown so far are very disappointing, and I'm not confident in the rules.
plus MiniatureMarket.com will have it at 50% off on Black Friday, I plan on picking it up plus some more 60% off Dropzone Commander and 40% off Infinity like last year
Alpharius wrote: We're all going to need to reign it in a bit and get back on topic here.
I will say this: I would not want Mantic to get the license to any property I had an emotional stake in. I guess Mars Attacks is a pretty fun game, but from my perspective I've seen the company deliver one solid hit in the Kings of War Rules. Deadzone required extensive changes soon after release and Warpath is on both the fourth and fifth iteration since it sort of debuted. Model-wise, the best of the lot could be considered "good enough for the price."
I like Mantic a lot. I've played in their events, backed their kickstarters, bought their stuff direct from them and at retail. I think you can do some great gaming with their stuff, and they make some things that are good value for the price. But we're long past the point where they are a scrappy underdog, and we're past the point where we need to continually lower our expectations to match whatever Mantic puts out.
So yes, I will be negative about the idea of Mantic adapting a property I'm interested in, because I no longer have reason to trust them. I don't think I'm being irrational, and I don't think I'm "bashing" them to say that they have a wildly erratic quality of rules (with an admittedly high ceiling) and erratic quality models (with a depressing low floor).
Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
judgedoug wrote: So now this thread has devolved into bashing Mantic for an IP that they haven't licensed
For a guy whose panties got incredibly bunched up for me casually insinuating that you were a vocal Mantic supporter, you really do go out of your way to white knight for them.
That's stretching the definition of "white knighting" to..............making up a completely new one
I happen to agree with you about the quality of Mantic's rules out of the gate, but maybe wait until you all know what it is [i]then[i/] you can have your meltdown, or not
Bombad wrote: Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
Big stompy robots gets my money every time. If Gundam models ever had a game attached to them my wallet would be in trouble.
Bombad wrote: Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
Big stompy robots gets my money every time. If Gundam models ever had a game attached to them my wallet would be in trouble.
I got tired of there not being a good one so I bought like 25 1/144 one year war mobile suits and collaborated with Manchu on a quick ruleset.
Now to build them...
Baragash wrote: I happen to agree with you about the quality of Mantic's rules out of the gate, but maybe wait until you all know what it is [i]then[i/] you can have your meltdown, or not
Do you know what I do know? That Mantic has been sitting on about $300 of mine for over a year, and has neither shipped my KOW pledge, nor have they responded to any of my attempts to contact them.
This is the, what, sixth major kickstarter they've run? And every time, they act shocked that it requires a lot of time and planning to coordinate? I'm frustrated, and annoyed, because with the army I have and the pdf, I'd almost rather have the $300 back than my pledge. But instead I get a brick wall of what I'll laughingly call "customer support."
This is a company that's bush league in nearly everything they do, and its only a matter of time before any given customer gets screwed hard by them.
Bombad wrote: Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
Big stompy robots gets my money every time. If Gundam models ever had a game attached to them my wallet would be in trouble.
I got tired of there not being a good one so I bought like 25 1/144 one year war mobile suits and collaborated with Manchu on a quick ruleset.
Now to build them...
Did you guys put a thread together over it? I'd totally torture my friends into playing something like that.
Bombad wrote: Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
Big stompy robots gets my money every time. If Gundam models ever had a game attached to them my wallet would be in trouble.
I got tired of there not being a good one so I bought like 25 1/144 one year war mobile suits and collaborated with Manchu on a quick ruleset.
Now to build them...
Did you guys put a thread together over it? I'd totally torture my friends into playing something like that.
Yes, please share this. I imagine there could be a lot of abuse though unless you kept it strictly One Year War.
1/144 stompy robot rules.. if you want, try Gruntz.. Technically 1/100 is 15mm but a lot of people use Gundam and other figures with that set.
As for Mantic.. I try not to get emotionally attached. They know they have to keep their playerbase happy, interested, and relevant. They also are trying somewhat hard to push towards hard sci-fi... if.. you call 80s cartoon designs hard sci-fi.. (I kid they do have "some" nice infantry) I haven't really found any of their rules to be enjoyable even though they are getting traction. The talk about Firefight "sounds" hopeful but so did Warpath when they were talking about it during DZ1.. and DZ sounded awesome when they were describing it. Some people enjoy the mechanics of those games and that's fine, I'm just finding that I don't seem to be among them.
I am not sure why people would get upset about Mantic working on WW:Z. It's not like there aren't a ton of zombie games out there. If you're really into that kind of thing, you probably have found one you can at least stand to play at the moment. If Mantic does NOT pick up the property then who will? We've seen plenty of other companies pick up and either over charge for this type of property or fail on concept. It's a roll of the dice with Mantic. The figures will probably be decent to good and they may end up cranking out a sleeper. They have that capability I think, they just haven't found their big hit yet.
Bombad wrote: Does Transformers count as post-apocalyptic by now? I think Michael Bay has destroyed almost every major city by now in those movies. I'd even take Noah over WW:Z...
Big stompy robots gets my money every time. If Gundam models ever had a game attached to them my wallet would be in trouble.
I got tired of there not being a good one so I bought like 25 1/144 one year war mobile suits and collaborated with Manchu on a quick ruleset.
Now to build them...
I need to see this ruleset please - ASAP!
(Does it also include rules for infantry, tanks and other vehicles?)
if you want to message me, i'll send you a link to our playtest copy. (google doc)
It's a d6, vaguely dice pool system, mobile suits only.
I doubt we'll be able to even touch it this year due to other miniatures commitments (look at all the kits I need to build) but I'm hoping to get to testing it out in January.
(Does it also include rules for infantry, tanks and other vehicles?)
If its mecha wouldn't the rule be target an infantry or tank unit, roll any number of dice, regardless of result replace tsnk/infantry with a smoking crater? In the reverse, infantry and tanks can do light damage to mecha by rolling 3 consecutive 6's on a d6
I dunno maybe I never saw some of the older shows, have tanks and infantry ever been effective?
On topic, I'm cautiously optimistic about the IP. If its really cool I'll be on board, if I'm not interested I get to skip pledging.
I played three games of the new Deadzone rules last night, the game is so much more fun without the results of doubles and triples and tons of modifiers to constantly look up, it is stripped right down to the basic things that are good about the game, and is much better for it.
Activation is now one model only, so play passes back and forth very quickly, keeps both players very involved.
Movement, LoS, positioning within cubes is basically the same, only with the speed stat added to ditch all the fast/agile/slow special rules.
Command dice are far better than the old system of cards and command actions (you can actually do things with your commander now, rather than parking them out of sight and using command actions).
Played three games (and two of them were larger 200-pointers) in the space of around 2 1/2 hours. Only would have had time for one game under the old rules.
Going to keep playing it and hopefully will get to balance points values, going to be a lot of work!
Also, the Deadzone RC is writing the campaign rules. This is one area that might actually gain in complexity over the old rules, but it's going to be worth it.
One of my usmc buddies and I read over the Warpath 0.2 quick reference sheet, then the pdf last night, and discussed it a bit. Copied and pasted here for anyone interested in seeing what we discovered about the ruleset
Spoiler:
10/13, 10:17pm
Kevin
Just saw warpath was only the 3rd best KS for Mantic
What a total fail Doug
10/13, 10:17pm
Doug
Should have been zero best
Did you read the summary sheet
10/13, 10:17pm
Kevin
When the feth they going open up that sweet sweet pledge manager
I see they failed to hit 500k. I want my Hultr
10/13, 10:21pm
Kevin
Like the half speed if suppressed
Autofail but no autosuccess not bad
Blaze away is a stupid name for suppressive fire, but civilians so I'll let it pass.
10/13, 10:25pm
Doug
Haha
10/13, 10:25pm
Kevin
But I like that it add suppression per hit.
10/13, 10:25pm
Doug
It's based on the deadzone name
10/13, 10:26pm
Kevin
My problem is that it uses D6s and blaze away is always on a Acc 6
frown emoticon
That I don't get but will need to see the other working parts to judge it.
10/13, 10:26pm
Doug
Yeah it's just kinda of like putting shots in the area. Gotta see how many dice though
If a unit puts out like twenty dice
10/13, 10:27pm
Kevin
Well since it's per hit, that means weapons with higher dice will be naturally better at suppression. I.E. a machine gun
Which i really really like
10/13, 10:28pm
Doug
Right
10/13, 10:28pm
Kevin
Mayhaps certain weapons will have positive modifiers towards "Blaze Away" based on their role.
So it seems you remove teams of dudes at once for causalities.
I do like that point fire or "shoot" as they call it still adds suppression but considerably less. That makes a lot of sense
10/13, 10:29pm
Doug
This is the mass battles version so kings of war. Apocalypse.
Fast play large armies
10/13, 10:30pm
Kevin
It also means something interesting. It means that if you straight up didn't cause enough damage to be meaningful it's basically ignored
But damage seems to be meaningful in two ways, either it kills (damage equaling res), or it scares (damage equaling nerve). Or like I said you didn't do enough for the unit to register it.
10/13, 10:32pm
Doug
Like incidental firing
Plus it's teams which I think are two three or four man in larger squads
10/13, 10:33pm
Kevin
Very interesting though, it looks like they are making an honest attempt at showing how modern weaponry (future in this case) works.
10/13, 10:34pm
Doug
I'd like to see some troop stats
10/13, 10:34pm
Kevin
Also the different options for actions presents lots of interesting choice. Do you spend a short action to regroup? and another to move to cover? Or do you move to cover and blaze away not worrying about the mounting suppression tokens
making the correct choice at the right time could be critical if the game is well balanced.
commadn mechanic looks interesting, would need to see it in action
When a grounded unit activates,
roll 1 dice per team, for every result
greater than the unit’s Nerve,
remove one Team.
10/13, 10:39pm
Doug
Grounded is double nerve
10/13, 10:39pm
Kevin
Which means nerve will be on a D6 spectrum
10/13, 10:39pm
Doug
Suppress them to retreat basically
10/13, 10:40pm
Kevin
Yes but nerve will be fairly low number, single digits unlike KoW
10/13, 10:41pm
Doug
But with multiple teams in a unit it's more granular
Highly interesting
Crumble a unit a team at a time
10/13, 10:43pm
Kevin
Makes sense from a large scale view. Teams are the smallest semi-autonomous manuever element.
Where as WP: Firefight zooms in on the individual actions of well individuals
So Warpath I'm guessing is Company level ops and above
10/13, 10:44pm
Doug
Seems to be
10/13, 10:48pm
Kevin
So excited about this game
Will enjoy that fat ass package in 2016
10/13, 10:50pm
Doug
One year from now
10/13, 10:51pm
Kevin
So long Doug
So long
10/13, 10:51pm
Doug
unless we get stats
then we can use my models
10/13, 11:35pm
Kevin
All units and terrain areas in the game have a height,
as shown in the chart below:
Height 0 The gaming surface
Height 1 Small creatures, low scrub, low walls
and barricades
Height 2 Man-sized creatures, most Infantry
units, perimeter walls
Height 3 Most Vehicle units, large humanoids,
trees, one-storey buildings
Height 4+ Two-storey buildings, some hills, some
large vehicles or alien beast
10/13, 11:36pm
Doug
Next gen ! Haha
10/13, 11:36pm
Kevin
Lol For real though, glad to see more games stealing gak from Starship Troopers
The only game that was actually ahead of it's time
10/13, 11:38pm
Kevin
Damn, nerve 3
If the loser of an Assault is not completely destroyed,
the winner will push them back. The owner of the
winning unit may make a Move action with the
opponent’s losing unit in any direction. This move
cannot be used to engage another unit.
Ok that's kinda of really cool
10/13, 11:43pm
Doug
haha force them back
10/13, 11:43pm
Kevin
Yep very dynamic
And you can move them into a position that could potentially allow you to follow up with fire.
Losing assualts will I think suck a big dick
10/13, 11:44pm
Doug
seems reasonable
10/13, 11:45pm
Kevin
X tokens for being bit by a weapon with the
Suppressive Fire (X) rule
Appears I was correct
This unit deals X suppression tokens on top of any
regular suppression caused when making a Shoot or
Blaze Away action. This applies even if no damage is
caused, but the weapon must hit at least once. If firing
multiple weapons with this rule, the totals are
cumulative.
From the larger entry
Also appears Blaze Away is only on a unmodified roll of 6
As it states no modifiers are applied to the roll.
But that means negative ones as well
But requiring a 6 makes more sense now that I know Nerve is so low. Otherwise getting above double suppression would be way to powerful.
As it is there's still a chance based on that one statline that you could force a unit to ground with a single roll.
Holy gak going to ground is straight up awful as feth
You can't even retaliate in an assault
This is suppression done right!
If you ground a unit on overwatch it immediately gets an activation token.
10/13, 11:56pm
Kevin
Brah, I've been waiting for this ruleset all my life
10/13, 11:56pm
Doug
I'll get my enforcers assembled and you can use my old forge fathers
10/13, 11:57pm
Kevin
Uggghhh Forge Father Steel warriors Nerve 2
Is there a Mantic forum
I need to convince these guys to please change the fething name from Blaze Away to Suppressing fire
Or actually Area fire
From the Forge Father Stormrage vets
Hailstorm Autocannon: 36" range, 16 dice!
Suppresive fire 1
12:03am
Doug
That's a whole unit with them right
12:03am
Kevin
Basically
Well a single team
So half the unit s
Since the unit can be 1-2 teams
As apposed to the Steel Warriors who can upgrade teams to them. They get 4 dice with the gun.
So if a team is 4 people, that means that everyone in a Stormrage team is armed with one.
But a Steel Warrior Ranged support team has a single one
12:06am
Doug
Gotcha
12:08am
Kevin
Hmmm appears a team is 5 guys
12:08am
Doug
Makes sense with five man sprues
12:09am
Kevin
Question
Teams must be modeled on a stand I notice
Will they be providing plug in stands that you can easily remove the models from
Wait the rules answers the question
and it is yes
It hink
It's implied but not directly stated
12:14am
Doug
it just says 2" within the leader
cloud
12:16am
Kevin
Units are broken down into smaller groups of
miniatures called teams, made up of a number of
miniatures mounted together on a single base, or
stand.
12:20am
Doug
ah there we go
12:21am
Doug
The miniatures used in the game are static, but in real
life would be very dynamic, constantly moving,
shooting and fighting. Therefore, the exact position of
the figures within the stand is not important – the
whole piece, including any space between the models,
is considered to be the area in which the models are
moving, and is regarded as the team for the purposes
of the rules
I also watched this last week, and I think it is pretty interesting as well, in case folks haven't seen it. The BoW guy meets up with a Mantic guy to go over the finer points of the latest version of the rules, I believe.
scarletsquig wrote: I played three games of the new Deadzone rules last night, the game is so much more fun without the results of doubles and triples and tons of modifiers to constantly look up, it is stripped right down to the basic things that are good about the game, and is much better for it.
Activation is now one model only, so play passes back and forth very quickly, keeps both players very involved.
Movement, LoS, positioning within cubes is basically the same, only with the speed stat added to ditch all the fast/agile/slow special rules.
Command dice are far better than the old system of cards and command actions (you can actually do things with your commander now, rather than parking them out of sight and using command actions).
Played three games (and two of them were larger 200-pointers) in the space of around 2 1/2 hours. Only would have had time for one game under the old rules.
Going to keep playing it and hopefully will get to balance points values, going to be a lot of work!
Also, the Deadzone RC is writing the campaign rules. This is one area that might actually gain in complexity over the old rules, but it's going to be worth it.
Sounds good squig, shame I didn't go for a physical book with my pledge, any news if there's a new box set coming?
Mymearan wrote: Oh man looking forward to DZ2.0 even more now... Didn't buy the rule book from Infestation though, guess I was too cheap!
did the same thing, just went massive on a veermyn force for warpath (and I hope ff is worth it)
Still got half a room of deadzone scenery to put together plus the secret weapon plastic board (which is sweet) I'm hoping I can drag some people down the local store into deadzone if I paint up a couple of basic forces.
Thanks for sharing Doug. That's probably the most I've gotten out of the new rules soo far.
I backed at $1 this time.I have unused LOKA, DEADZONE, and DREADBALL Kickstarter packages on a shelf in my cellar. If I like the rules PDF, I'll just my forces at retail.
adamsouza wrote: Thanks for sharing Doug. That's probably the most I've gotten out of the new rules soo far.
I backed at $1 this time.I have unused LOKA, DEADZONE, and DREADBALL Kickstarter packages on a shelf in my cellar. If I like the rules PDF, I'll just my forces at retail.
I've found it's a lot easier to digest rules when you and a buddy or two are going over them together at the same time, so you can bounce rules concepts off of each other.
Yeah, I just don't get behind the notion of "in real life ___ "... it's a game, not a simulator. Most of the rest was stuff I had picked up on and isn't my personal cuppa. Unless I missed something, your assumption about Mantic supplying the bases is off. I am fairly certain they said a few times they'll not have any for this.
I think there should be a limiter on how much suppression you can stack on (if there isn't, I don't remember one) based on the type of weapon or other situations. I just can't see someone encased in armor capable of withstanding an orbital drop being phased by small arms fire.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I just don't get behind the notion of "in real life ___ "... it's a game, not a simulator. Most of the rest was stuff I had picked up on and isn't my personal cuppa. Unless I missed something, your assumption about Mantic supplying the bases is off. I am fairly certain they said a few times they'll not have any for this.
I think there should be a limiter on how much suppression you can stack on (if there isn't, I don't remember one) based on the type of weapon or other situations. I just can't see someone encased in armor capable of withstanding an orbital drop being phased by small arms fire.
Why should a game necessarily be gamey? Sure, there are games that are completely abstract, but if Im playing a miniatures game... Id kind of like a measure of realism when it comes to tactics. Just my opinion ofc.
And re: drop armour: Simple. Theyve got lots of insulation and shock dampeners, but all that bulk necessary to survive the drop limits the amount of actual ballistic armour you can have. Or you got shot in a joint and now youve got a bullet jamming your knee. Take cover to pry it out. Or your sensors got hit, and youre effectively blind until they reboot. Stuff like that. Nothing is completely bulletproof. (well, nothing that can move around anyway)
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I just don't get behind the notion of "in real life ___ "... it's a game, not a simulator. Most of the rest was stuff I had picked up on and isn't my personal cuppa. Unless I missed something, your assumption about Mantic supplying the bases is off. I am fairly certain they said a few times they'll not have any for this.
I think there should be a limiter on how much suppression you can stack on (if there isn't, I don't remember one) based on the type of weapon or other situations. I just can't see someone encased in armor capable of withstanding an orbital drop being phased by small arms fire.
Why should a game necessarily be gamey? Sure, there are games that are completely abstract, but if Im playing a miniatures game... Id kind of like a measure of realism when it comes to tactics. Just my opinion ofc.
And re: drop armour: Simple. Theyve got lots of insulation and shock dampeners, but all that bulk necessary to survive the drop limits the amount of actual ballistic armour you can have. Or you got shot in a joint and now youve got a bullet jamming your knee. Take cover to pry it out. Or your sensors got hit, and youre effectively blind until they reboot. Stuff like that. Nothing is completely bulletproof. (well, nothing that can move around anyway)
The guys from the famous Hollywood shootout were heavily armored. Yes, they were missing very important details, like feet.. but they didn't take cover. SEALs who are advancing on a position aren't really armoured up, but are trained to push through whatever it is.. being shot, knicked, whatever. I'm not saying psychology has no place, I'm saying that it's treating highly trained soldiers in cutting edge futuristic equipment as though they are weak-willed civilians in casual attire. You can argue back and forth on that, but you're not going to convince me that in such a futuristic setting, people are going to be taking cover behind stuff that is weaker than the armor they're wearing and sacrificing their objective. That's not how modern combat works. If you're in the open or in light cover and could make it to your objective then you haul ass with your unit and pray you don't catch a bullet. If you dig in and miss your objective or sacrifice a strategic advantage because you're scared of people shooting in your general area then you are as good as dead. Hollywood has done a poor job teaching people what happens once bullets start flying.
As to gamey-ness. Having a big blob represent your unit is just as gamey and even more abstract.. so I really don't see what you're getting at. Strategy is an element of games. Placement of your game pieces is crucial. The same can be said for your figures. If they are zoned in behind built up cover and providing overwatch, then they would not be swirling around doing interpretive dance. They would be secured in very specific locations covering their sector. EDIT: You say realism, I kinda think you mean the other thing.
MLaw wrote: Placement of your game pieces is crucial. The same can be said for your figures. If they are zoned in behind built up cover and providing overwatch, then they would not be swirling around doing interpretive dance. They would be secured in very specific locations covering their sector. EDIT: You say realism, I kinda think you mean the other thing.
For me it boils down to the question: What is the role of the player? For example, in a Company or BN Commander role, frankly the individual placement of fire team members/individual troopers is NOT something I need to deal with. As a company commander knowing where squads are and what sector they are covering is good enough. As a BN Commander, knowing where platoons are and their sectors is good enough. If Warpath is supposed to put the player into the role of a plussed up Company Commander or an understrength Battalion Commander, the player placing fire team or squad 'clusters'/bases is probably good enough IF the mechanisms are done correctly.
MLaw wrote: Placement of your game pieces is crucial. The same can be said for your figures. If they are zoned in behind built up cover and providing overwatch, then they would not be swirling around doing interpretive dance. They would be secured in very specific locations covering their sector. EDIT: You say realism, I kinda think you mean the other thing.
For me it boils down to the question: What is the role of the player? For example, in a Company or BN Commander role, frankly the individual placement of fire team members/individual troopers is NOT something I need to deal with. As a company commander knowing where squads are and what sector they are covering is good enough. As a BN Commander, knowing where platoons are and their sectors is good enough. If Warpath is supposed to put the player into the role of a plussed up Company Commander or an understrength Battalion Commander, the player placing fire team or squad 'clusters'/bases is probably good enough IF the mechanisms are done correctly.
While I understand the idea behind this philosophy, it isn't really something I am into. Also, some of the mechanisms are geared to support the scope you mention while others (like suppression) seems like it's more micro level, contrasting with the nature of overview style gaming. I will say that your explanation of your point of view as opposed to some of the dismissals of my own views is refreshing.
By my limited reading of the rules, the situation you describe - orbital elite drop troops, etc, would have a Nerve value higher than their Resilience. So they do not take suppression from Shoot actions and only take suppression from Blaze Away (which is the whole point of area fire that has been in use by militaries for eighty years to suppress an area of terrain that has enemies in it)
Additionally, if you have mega armor guys with De 7 then they cannot even take suppression unless the weapon being fired has at least AP 1
And a unit is only Suppressed if it has as many tokens as it's Nerve
So you could theoretically have a high never, high de unit that is nearly impossible to suppress
Does that address your complaint? Unless I'm misunderstanding something. This is my first real read-through of the 0.2 rules.
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MLaw wrote: Yeah, I just don't get behind the notion of "in real life ___ "... it's a game, not a simulator.
Ah, see, so it may just be personal preference. I've developed a taste over the years for games that can accurately simulate ultramodern combat tactics with a light, elegant ruleset. So a simulator is what I'd like, but one that can accurately simulate warfare without a cumbersome system.
judgedoug wrote: By my limited reading of the rules, the situation you describe - orbital elite drop troops, etc, would have a Nerve value higher than their Resilience. So they do not take suppression from Shoot actions and only take suppression from Blaze Away (which is the whole point of area fire that has been in use by militaries for eighty years to suppress an area of terrain that has enemies in it)
Additionally, if you have mega armor guys with De 7 then they cannot even take suppression unless the weapon being fired has at least AP 1
And a unit is only Suppressed if it has as many tokens as it's Nerve
So you could theoretically have a high never, high de unit that is nearly impossible to suppress
Does that address your complaint? Unless I'm misunderstanding something. This is my first real read-through of the 0.2 rules.
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MLaw wrote: Yeah, I just don't get behind the notion of "in real life ___ "... it's a game, not a simulator.
Ah, see, so it may just be personal preference. I've developed a taste over the years for games that can accurately simulate ultramodern combat tactics with a light, elegant ruleset. So a simulator is what I'd like, but one that can accurately simulate warfare without a cumbersome system.
Yeah, that sounds like they might have factored in what I was looking for. That's good to hear because sometimes it sounds like some aspects of the community want all suppression all the time and from my experience with DZ and a brief glance at one of the previous versions of the WP rules it felt like they might've been heading that direction. While I might not be swayed to WP by this it does give hope for FF.
As to the other bit, I think our ideas of what an accurate simulation of combat would look like might be different. Having been involved in training room clearing techniques, small arms, and other areas of actual modern combat, I think I am looking for very specific things from how combat works in a game.
Hi all, I'm Judgedoug's USMC buddy. If anyone is interested (I know you don't really care), I served for 6 years as an 0311 (Riflemen) before being medically separated. I EAS'd at E-5 AKA Sgt. So that's my background and it has colored my thought process ever since it became that.
One I want to say that the comments were just me and Doug talking over the mechanics on facebook after having done a cursory read. Haven't put mini's down on the table yet to test them out so I couldn't give a full assessment.
Two being intimately familiar with modern warfare, the first thing I look for in a game with semi automatic weaponry, tanks, and HE weapons is how is suppression handled and did the designer bother to understand the difference between point and area targets. This is because I believe suppression is tantamount to having a proper feel for modern combat. It is the fire portion of fire and maneuver. As we use to say movement without fire is death, fire without movement is a waste of ammunition. So the two types of shooting and how they interacted with units is what I focused on during that convo with Doug and what I focused on with my cursory glance of the rules.
I can say at a glance I'm pleased. They've made suppression important, and they've made forcing someone down a terrible thing to occur. However it appears they have maintained some balance. Through the use of Nerve, I.E. you are only suppressed if you have tokens equal to your Nerve and only go to ground if it's double. While gone to ground you get a bunch of negatives, you can't do anything but rally (remove d6+1 suppression tokens is basically your turn) you don't even get to react in an assault, life is generally terrible, much more terrible than simply being suppressed, which just gives you negatives to moving and doing things like shooting effectively. And there's a chance of teams being removed right before you do make that rally test, again that's based on Nerve though. So higher Nerve (better trained guys) will fair better. But these negatives sure do seem to reward you for concentrating a volume of fire onto whatever objective you want to assault. So suppression is important, and forcing a unit to go to ground is even better. I know this may sound insane but the main roll of the machine gun I.E. 240B or similar is not to kill your enemy but to suppress the objective so the maneuver element takes less incoming fire, so I like the effects of suppression for this reason.
So the other thing I looked at was is it too easy to outright put the other side out of the game with suppression tokens. I don't think so and here is why, the early mentioned Nerve is one. Also the two types of fire are another, a shoot action, which is essentially firing at point targets puts very little tokens on an enemy and could possibly put none. The second type is Blaze Away (man do I hate that name), it is essentially firing at an area target, with blaze away you put one suppression token on an enemy for every 6 you roll, this can not be modified in any way under the current rules. So natural 6s only. This means weapons with more dice (higher rates of fire) will be more successful at this role, kinda of like a machine gun. Another thing that doesn't make suppression easy is the actual activation. It's alternating, so I don't get to move every unit and just blast yours off the table, I get to choose one, than you choose one. Did my mortar just put a bunch of suppression tokens on your squad maneuvering on my flank? Well counter battery that thing and try and put it out of action, or better yet hit my machine guns since they haven't gone yet. That way I won't be able to use them as effectively to add even more suppression to your maneuver elements.
Hopefully this less of a loose ramble clarifies my loose ramble I had with Doug over facebook.
I had a discussion with my brother, who is ex-Royal Marine, and he said basically exactly the same thing with regard to what he saw as the most important things in representing modern/near future warfare on the battlefield.
I was putting together a squad based system with these ideas in mind, but both Medge and Warpath seem to be going along the same route, which is great as it will save me work and probably mean I'll have more people to play with!
DrNo172000 wrote: Hi all, I'm Judgedoug's USMC buddy. If anyone is interested (I know you don't really care), I served for 6 years as an 0311 (Riflemen) before being medically separated. I EAS'd at E-5 AKA Sgt. So that's my background and it has colored my thought process ever since it became that.
One I want to say that the comments were just me and Doug talking over the mechanics on facebook after having done a cursory read. Haven't put mini's down on the table yet to test them out so I couldn't give a full assessment.
Two being intimately familiar with modern warfare, the first thing I look for in a game with semi automatic weaponry, tanks, and HE weapons is how is suppression handled and did the designer bother to understand the difference between point and area targets. This is because I believe suppression is tantamount to having a proper feel for modern combat. It is the fire portion of fire and maneuver. As we use to say movement without fire is death, fire without movement is a waste of ammunition. So the two types of shooting and how they interacted with units is what I focused on during that convo with Doug and what I focused on with my cursory glance of the rules.
I can say at a glance I'm pleased. They've made suppression important, and they've made forcing someone down a terrible thing to occur. However it appears they have maintained some balance. Through the use of Nerve, I.E. you are only suppressed if you have tokens equal to your Nerve and only go to ground if it's double. While gone to ground you get a bunch of negatives, you can't do anything but rally (remove d6+1 suppression tokens is basically your turn) you don't even get to react in an assault, life is generally terrible, much more terrible than simply being suppressed, which just gives you negatives to moving and doing things like shooting effectively. And there's a chance of teams being removed right before you do make that rally test, again that's based on Nerve though. So higher Nerve (better trained guys) will fair better. But these negatives sure do seem to reward you for concentrating a volume of fire onto whatever objective you want to assault. So suppression is important, and forcing a unit to go to ground is even better. I know this may sound insane but the main roll of the machine gun I.E. 240B or similar is not to kill your enemy but to suppress the objective so the maneuver element takes less incoming fire, so I like the effects of suppression for this reason.
So the other thing I looked at was is it too easy to outright put the other side out of the game with suppression tokens. I don't think so and here is why, the early mentioned Nerve is one. Also the two types of fire are another, a shoot action, which is essentially firing at point targets puts very little tokens on an enemy and could possibly put none. The second type is Blaze Away (man do I hate that name), it is essentially firing at an area target, with blaze away you put one suppression token on an enemy for every 6 you roll, this can not be modified in any way under the current rules. So natural 6s only. This means weapons with more dice (higher rates of fire) will be more successful at this role, kinda of like a machine gun. Another thing that doesn't make suppression easy is the actual activation. It's alternating, so I don't get to move every unit and just blast yours off the table, I get to choose one, than you choose one. Did my mortar just put a bunch of suppression tokens on your squad maneuvering on my flank? Well counter battery that thing and try and put it out of action, or better yet hit my machine guns since they haven't gone yet. That way I won't be able to use them as effectively to add even more suppression to your maneuver elements.
Hopefully this less of a loose ramble clarifies my loose ramble I had with Doug over facebook.
To me, the scope of what WP is supposed to be, is more broad than the level of depth for the various types of suppression you're mentioning. Some people are saying it's an orbital commander type view. If that's the case, then such granularity on psychology does not make sense. In DZ, sure I could see it being that specific, just not in a game that's supposed to be about the big picture.
To me, at such a broad level, suppression should be a delaying action, defensive in nature. If you're sitting in CiC and your teams are taking fire, all you're going to hear is whether or not they're being flanked and whether or not they're moving forward.. and any casualties of course from fire connecting. I fully understand the nature and uses of suppression but in most tabletop games, it's used more like trench warfare than modern combat in built up areas.
All that said, when I mentioned realism, I was referring to positioning. Positioning of fireteam members and how they are formed for specific situations is extremely important. The abstraction to everyone being in a huge cumbersome blob is reductive in nature to the point of turning your 5 man team into essentially one large figure or abstract form, like a multi-wound creature from 40k.
Like I said, I'm holding out for FF. There's specific things I'm looking for and from the philosophy, it's sounds like fireteam level control is being handled through that outlet.
MLaw wrote: To me, the scope of what WP is supposed to be, is more broad than the level of depth for the various types of suppression you're mentioning. Some people are saying it's an orbital commander type view. If that's the case, then such granularity on psychology does not make sense. In DZ, sure I could see it being that specific, just not in a game that's supposed to be about the big picture.
To me, at such a broad level, suppression should be a delaying action, defensive in nature. If you're sitting in CiC and your teams are taking fire, all you're going to hear is whether or not they're being flanked and whether or not they're moving forward.. and any casualties of course from fire connecting. I fully understand the nature and uses of suppression but in most tabletop games, it's used more like trench warfare than modern combat in built up areas.
All that said, when I mentioned realism, I was referring to positioning. Positioning of fireteam members and how they are formed for specific situations is extremely important. The abstraction to everyone being in a huge cumbersome blob is reductive in nature to the point of turning your 5 man team into essentially one large figure or abstract form, like a multi-wound creature from 40k.
Like I said, I'm holding out for FF. There's specific things I'm looking for and from the philosophy, it's sounds like fireteam level control is being handled through that outlet.
I dunno... I think at company level, the granularity on psychology is one of the only things that's left, so is pretty much makes sense to me. As in, what state are my units in? We don't need to know the status of individual models, their positioning, etc, at that level; as a company commander, I just need to know if my units are capable of fighting or out of action. (Honestly, I could do with half as many stats - more akin to SG2 and TW in this aspect) . What type of unit is it and can it reliably perform it's duties?
So, you as a player are not controlling individual models - the unit itself should have the rules abstracted in such a way that the unit would perform in-game... roughly the same as if the individuals models were controlled by the player. Your focus has moved away from them, so the rules that govern how they function (abstractly) should reflect their average performance. I'm 100% for that abstraction, element/cloud units, if it's done well (and it's done well in many other rulesets). Having not actually played Warpath 0.2 yet I can't comment on whether it's done well or not. A lot of platoon-to-company-level rulesets touch on element/cloud (random chunks of element/cloud rules from other rulesets include; majority of models in cover then unit in cover, AT-43 style measure from leader to leader for ranged combat, move just leader model when moving and reposition troops around leader)
The idea of a ruleset where positioning within a fireteam matters immensely does sound pretty cool - have you ever checked out a ruleset from about ten years ago called Dogs of War? written by JC McDaniels. It's on the fireteam level. Largest game I played was perhaps two USMC fireteams versus two squads of Iraqi Republican Guard. But, positioning of individual elements within a fireteam is such a zoomed in scope that Warpath (massive) wouldn't make sense to handle any of that.
I have to admit, I first thought the idea of two rulesets was pretty stupid. But now that I see the direction that Warpath (massive) is going, I kind of like it. I had always wanted to a) do Apocalypse games in a reasonable amount of time and b) play Epic using 28mm minis; it seems like Warpath has the potential to play those huge 4x8 or 6x8 or 6x12 games in a reasonable amount of time. So that leaves me cautiously optimistic for Warpath Firefight - will it be just a 40k clone, or will it be realistically granular in the ways you hope (positioning within a fireteam, etc)? Well, I guess good thing it was only $1 pledge to find out, haha.
I don't know how to ask this without coming across like a rube who lacks sophistication, so I'll just ask. Is there a super simple wargame in the same scale where you just move around and shoot at things?
Suppression is cool, but it also sounds like something that would kill the game for my group. Special rules, lots of tokens or book keeping, or any kind of status where your side 'loses a turn' would pretty much stop the game. I'm looking for something at least as simple as Space Hulk, but without a board, and maybe with more rules for varied units, weapons or even vehicles.
My friends and family/gaming group have yet to make it through a single FFG board game, although we've managed a few turns at Descent a couple of times. If there is some fast, high-carnage game out there, please tell me what it is.
If you're just looking to push some models about and roll some dice even 3/4 ed 40k would work ok, wouldn't it? As long as balance and tactical depth are less of a concern it is actually a fairly useable system for rolling a few dice, and if you can avoid the ever-present glaring balance issue by just supplying pre-built lists, I'd say it would work well enough.
If low model count is OK, from what Scarletsquig has been posting from deep, deep inside the rules committee, 2nd edition Deadzone is looking to be real fast, simple, and quite close to what you describe. Alternatively Mars Attacks is a faster, simpler deadzone-like system AFAIK (never played it, but reports are pretty good) which seems ideally suited to beer 'n pretzels type gaming as well.
(And personally I consider Infinity to be a very fast-paced, elegant system which, IMO, is easy enough to learn - but that last bit is not something many people seem to agree with so it might not really be that suitable. As far as "fast, high-carnage" elegant systems go, though - Infinity does those things like no other!)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't know how to ask this without coming across like a rube who lacks sophistication, so I'll just ask. Is there a super simple wargame in the same scale where you just move around and shoot at things?
Suppression is cool, but it also sounds like something that would kill the game for my group. Special rules, lots of tokens or book keeping, or any kind of status where your side 'loses a turn' would pretty much stop the game. I'm looking for something at least as simple as Space Hulk, but without a board, and maybe with more rules for varied units, weapons or even vehicles.
My friends and family/gaming group have yet to make it through a single FFG board game, although we've managed a few turns at Descent a couple of times. If there is some fast, high-carnage game out there, please tell me what it is.
Hmm, Warhammer Quest would be the first thing I'd say, especially when it comes to high carnage... but, you'd need to invest hundreds of dollars in out of print stuff.
I'll take a look at Combat Zone, although I would most likely be using my GW/Mantic/DFG minis for counts as purposes.
I'll also take a look at Mars Attacks. I already have the rules somewhere... From what I remember, ScarletSquig described that as a simpler, faster version of Deadzone, right?
We tried playing 4th edition 40k back in the day and it did not work out. Battlefleet Gothic did, but that has spaceships so it really isn't a fair comparison.
I love Mars Attacks. It might scratch that itch for you Bob. It really is quick and simple, especially compared to DZ.
Then again, for quick and simple I'm always a big fan of Ganesha Games and their line of stuff. Flying Lead might be a good fit for what you want, especially if you want a near future shoot 'em up that you can use any old figure in.
Andrea at Ganesha is supposed to be putting together some new SciFi rules for a 40k equivalent, and he's got some new stuff coming out through Osprey as well that looks like it's going to play more at an Infinity level than at a 40k sized game.
DZ2 sounds like lessons from the speed and simplicity of MA have been incorporated into its design. It's likely still not as simple, but the aesthetic might scratch quite a different itch than MA does (those martians look lovely to me but I can imagine they might be quite the turn-off to that system to some people).
Also, holy feth - BFG worked fine for a group that needs absolute simplicity as priority no.1? That's certainly not how I remember that game (don't get me wrong, awesome game for its day but neither simple nor straightforward are terms I'd use to describe that system - firing arcs are one thing but damage bookkeeping alone, not to mention waves of boarders/torpedoes would make me think twice, then think real hard again before trying to demo that as a quick, high-carnage system!).
I would keep an open mind w.r.t. DZ2 when it comes out if that sort of system wasn't completely out of reach - it certainly will be leaps and bounds faster and simpler than 4th ed 40k and again, you're not stuck with the silly cartoon green alien men look nearly as much
Andrea at Ganesha is supposed to be putting together some new SciFi rules for a 40k equivalent, and he's got some new stuff coming out through Osprey as well that looks like it's going to play more at an Infinity level than at a 40k sized game.
Really?
SoBaH is excellent, I'm looking for a sci-fi equivalent...
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I love Mars Attacks. It might scratch that itch for you Bob. It really is quick and simple, especially compared to DZ.
Then again, for quick and simple I'm always a big fan of Ganesha Games and their line of stuff. Flying Lead might be a good fit for what you want, especially if you want a near future shoot 'em up that you can use any old figure in.
Andrea at Ganesha is supposed to be putting together some new SciFi rules for a 40k equivalent, and he's got some new stuff coming out through Osprey as well that looks like it's going to play more at an Infinity level than at a 40k sized game.
Beat me to it. I was going to suggest Ganesha's games as well. You might also consider looking into Two Hour Wargames' Chain Reaction. The nice thing about that is that it's designed for small scale gaming and it's totally free.
@Bob - For my family, Mars Attacks was the break out hit among all of the Mantic games I've bought into. That's entirely down to how fluidly and easily it plays, while still preserving a light element of tactics and strategy. No one in my family cares about the franchise.
In fact, I think the only reason I haven't taken Mars Attacks fully to heart is the franchise; I'd much rather be playing a game set in Mantic's warpath universe. If Deadzone V.2 is really all that, I've probably found our ideal game. And having learned the lessons of Mars Attacks, it really should be all that, and we know exactly who to blame if it isn't.
But yeah, I'd also recommend Mars Attacks, with the only caveat being that if you think your family / buddies will get tired of playing US Army vs. Martians, there's not much else you can do with that game. (At least the human / Martian sides are large enough that you can vary the force compositions quite a bit.)
Seems Alpharius chimed in while I was typing this. So to bring this back on topic (not just Mantic Sci-Fi, but rumors about new Mantic Sci-Fi, I take it) -
Here's a very light proto-rumor to take with two shovelfulls of salt. I'm hopeful that the idea of doing a sci-fi Dungeon saga has inched just a bit closer to being on Mantic's radar. During the Warpath campaign, I brought up the idea in the comments thread, and a lot of people chimed in to support it, bringing it up again on their own initiative later. I know people have raised the idea before, and I don't know who originated it, so no bragging rights assumed on that point.
Mantic were actively responding to the comments this time, and seemed interested in the idea. And I think it makes a lot of business sense, particularly if conventional wisdom has it that boardgames are the big KS sellers anyway. At any rate, hopefully we made a convincing case that there would be demand for it. But if it sounds like something you'd be interested in, let them know. I don't imagine we'd see anything happen for at least another two years, as they probably have their slate planned out that far. I'm certain, among other things, that we'll see a fantasy Deadzone before we see a sci-fi Dungeon Saga. But once fantasy Deadzone is done, they'll have to move on to something.
If the Mutant Chronicles "Siege of the Citadel" boardgame is getting relaunched, why not Project Pandora?
I still think on such a large scale, suppression should be simple, like reduces movement, restricts actions to defensive, focuses the target on the suppressing unit.. stuff like that. Having suppressive fire directly result in casualties (if I understood correctly) never makes sense to me. I don't want to draw this out as a "I don't like this" "you're wrong" kinda thing because it's still a game and the mechanics of that game are what they are and our ideas and philosophies on it are what they are. Theory-crafting some other possible mechanics is the only thing I could see but that's predicated on the belief that this system isn't great, so it seems like something that would be a one-way convo.
I have not heard of the fireteam game you mention. Specter games has some stuff too but I'm really hoping to steer towards sci-fi with more of a near future or hard sci-fi -video-gamey type of feel (hence my interest).
Bob - I have a pipedream for a game. I've been slowly working on it over the years but it's much more of a boardgame with emphasis on what you're talking about. HINT might also be your huckleberry whenever it finally ships, or MERCS Recon (sigh). Privateer Press did something as well I think.. but I never really heard much about it.
EDIT: Alpharius - Sorry, didn't see your post. I'm not sure what we're supposed to stop talking about though.. suppression in WP or boardgames? I'm not being funny, I'm legitimately unsure.
I think we're supposed to stop discussing BobtheInquisitor's question regarding casual gaming systems; an in-depth discussion of the actual mechanics of one of the games this topic covers seems AOK so far
Having suppressive fire directly result in casualties (if I understood correctly) never makes sense to me.
Comparatively few casualties, though, vs direct targeted fire. Seems to me if a (to be) suppressed target does happen to stick his noggin' out of hard cover one would be remiss not to oblige, right? It'll still cause fewer direct casualties than targeted fire intended to specifically pick off such targets would.
In the end though it is just a game, and something like this is likely done in part for balancing purposes, and in part because shooting without a chance to actually put a hole in someone might not feel 'right' to a significant part of the intended customer base.
(I know that to me, at least, it 'feels' like more fun than the mechanic you seem to prefer - and I'm not interested in playing a simulation as much as I'm interested in playing a fun, competitive game that rewards tactical decisions even if they only make sense in the context of that ruleset and not so much in an actual military context - I'm firing a yuuge laser at a giant rat, dammit! )
Bolognesus wrote: I think we're supposed to stop discussing BobtheInquisitor's question regarding casual gaming systems; an in-depth discussion of the actual mechanics of one of the games this topic covers seems AOK so far
Having suppressive fire directly result in casualties (if I understood correctly) never makes sense to me.
Comparatively few casualties, though, vs direct targeted fire. Seems to me if a (to be) suppressed target does happen to stick his noggin' out of hard cover one would be remiss not to oblige, right? It'll still cause fewer direct casualties than targeted fire intended to specifically pick off such targets would. In the end though it is just a game, and something like this is likely done in part for balancing purposes, and in part because shooting without a chance to actually put a hole in someone might not feel 'right' to a significant part of the intended customer base. (I know that to me, at least, it 'feels' like more fun than the mechanic you seem to prefer - and I'm not interested in playing a simulation as much as I'm interested in playing a fun, competitive game that rewards tactical decisions even if they only make sense in the context of that ruleset and not so much in an actual military context - I'm firing a yuuge laser at a giant rat, dammit! )
So.. I am not interested in fun games? Hm.. that's upsetting :( You've got me wrong.. Suppressing fire has a place. I keep saying that and the fact that I don't like lumping it in keeps getting misconstrued as me saying it doesn't belong period. That's not at all what I'm saying. Look at X-Com. When you have a heavy and you set him to do suppressing fire, it takes 2 actions and keeps the targets' head down. The target can still move on it's turn but takes a chance of getting nailed. If it sits tight, the only danger it faces is getting flanked or having a grenade land in his lap. Typically if someone is laying down cover fire, they are not aiming specifically so much as firing into an area. If you can see your target you shoot your target. This is what Doug's buddy was talking about. Point fire vs area fire. I'm good with all of that. I think I even indicated (twice now.. or three times counting this post) that what Doug described as the current 0.2 suppression rules sounds like it could work compared to the looser more suppression-happy rules in DZ1.
EDIT: Alpharius thanks for clarifying, I'm feeling particularly dense at the moment and have a massive headache.
Bolognesus wrote: I think we're supposed to stop discussing BobtheInquisitor's question regarding casual gaming systems; an in-depth discussion of the actual mechanics of one of the games this topic covers seems AOK so far
Having suppressive fire directly result in casualties (if I understood correctly) never makes sense to me.
Comparatively few casualties, though, vs direct targeted fire. Seems to me if a (to be) suppressed target does happen to stick his noggin' out of hard cover one would be remiss not to oblige, right? It'll still cause fewer direct casualties than targeted fire intended to specifically pick off such targets would.
In the end though it is just a game, and something like this is likely done in part for balancing purposes, and in part because shooting without a chance to actually put a hole in someone might not feel 'right' to a significant part of the intended customer base.
(I know that to me, at least, it 'feels' like more fun than the mechanic you seem to prefer - and I'm not interested in playing a simulation as much as I'm interested in playing a fun, competitive game that rewards tactical decisions even if they only make sense in the context of that ruleset and not so much in an actual military context - I'm firing a yuuge laser at a giant rat, dammit! )
So.. I am not interested in fun games? Hm.. that's upsetting :(
You've got me wrong.. Suppressing fire has a place. I keep saying that and the fact that I don't like lumping it in keeps getting misconstrued as me saying it doesn't belong period. That's not at all what I'm saying.
Look at X-Com. When you have a heavy and you set him to do suppressing fire, it takes 2 actions and keeps the targets' head down. The target can still move on it's turn but takes a chance of getting nailed. If it sits tight, the only danger it faces is getting flanked or having a grenade land in his lap. Typically if someone is laying down cover fire, they are not aiming specifically so much as firing into an area. If you can see your target you shoot your target. This is what Doug's buddy was talking about. Point fire vs area fire. I'm good with all of that. I think I even indicated (twice now.. or three times counting this post) that what Doug described as the current 0.2 suppression rules sounds like it could work compared to the looser more suppression-happy rules in DZ1.
EDIT: Alpharius thanks for clarifying, I'm feeling particularly dense at the moment and have a massive headache.
Sorry, not what I'm saying! All I'm saying is that I suspect there's a large group of players who likely won't share some of the concerns you and others in this thread do have. At least, not as much. For example, IMO it doesn't seem unreasonable that, from time to time, suppressive fire actually might take down a target as well, just much less effectively than shooting purely to hit would. Is that so far off the mark? (Honestly, I can't say I've had the need to give it a try. that might be part of the disconnect here )
Are you referring to X-COM the board game or the PC game? I haven't had a chance to play the board game, but I know suppressive fire in the PC game is, IMO, however realistic it might have been implemented, not something that feels like a valid strategy in the context of that ruleset. I pretty much always have better things to do with that turn, and when used against me I'll just take out the fether suppressing my guy with another guy first. Likely nowhere near as clear-cut outside my comfy turn-based make-believe situation, but that doesn't make it any more of a 'fun' option to me. I just don't see SF like that being rewarding on the tabletop (while OTOH the whole pinning system from BA, for example, is something I like very much. However much it might not be the most realistic thing ever)
Some of what Judgedoug mentioned (I think, might have been DrNo172000) about suppression forcing units down in the open rather than forcing them to leg it to cover feels like much more of a disconnect to me. OTOH I'm pretty sure any rule that would force you to make a move to nearest cover, or best cover would be open to horrendous abuse (try debating where that unit should have tried to go halfway through a tournament game, or just imagine how much would balance on precise .1"-closer-to-favourable-position model placement).
In that light, I can see why WP would go with a 'realistic enough' approach that at least doesn't lend itself well to that sort of antics. I see why a historicals/simulators player might vastly prefer that - but it's a very different kind of play from the sort of close-enough but still tactically rewarding, but most of all quick and unambiguous ruleset I would actually like this to be. (Honestly I'm not even saying such a system would not be a fun game - just not to me! again, not looking for a fight here )
Come to think of it, isn't "Typically if someone is laying down cover fire, they are not aiming specifically so much as firing into an area. If you can see your target you shoot your target" mostly the issue? No LoF means no suppression atm, and the distinction which I'm sure works much better on a battlefield that isn't actually as conveniently flat-with-intermittent-terrain-gunk as most wargaming tables will, IMO, struggle on a battlefield devoid of the sort of micro-cover (for lack of a better phrase) that a 'real' setting would provide in much greater amount.
It seems that, just going by what you're saying, the distinction you'd like to see would require another distinction that, IME, tends to be utterly absent from most gaming tables.
All I'm saying is that this likely works 'good enough' if you just shrug and accept the lack of realism (likely easier for me than for some others here, I'll grant you that). Also, SF still does way less damage than targeted fire. Whether that's still too much of an abstraction is a matter of taste, I suppose.
Lastly, when you point out that covering fire is something you do for lack of a more effective option - sorry for horrendously oversimplifying your statement there! - it does sort of sound like the sort of 'meh' option that would simply not be attractive in a wargame which by nature can't quite make some of the distinctions required to give it a proper place. Maybe look at this as a way to balance that out for the more competitive play-oriented customers? Some of us don't particularly care if 'realism' gets trampled six ways to sunday if it makes for a quicker, more competitive system. I know Infinity let's me spend 10 orders (11, even, strictly speaking) on a single model trying to rambo an enemy by its lonesome. Could he realistically do *that* much in that space of time? I rather doubt it. But it makes for a very enjoyable, tactically rewarding game for me - even if there is no relation between tabletop and real-world tactics in sight. If that might not be your cup of tea, I'll be the last person ever to claim you fail to understand 'fun' or somesuch - but I'll gladly defend the mechanic however ludicrous it might be from a 'realism'-based perspective. And in the end a game like WP will always try to cater both to your tastes and mine, and will have to make some accommodations for hilariously-scaled fliers and yuuge laaazors hitting MegaRatz while doing so. Again, please don't take anything in that sort of statement as some sort of personal attack
The bit in Poland that does their casting is the bit that would be most useful to Mantic, but I suspect it would be tricky to properly oversee it from the UK
The rules and marketing stuff from the UK would be easier to absorb (if their licences allow) bu I'm uncertain of the value there (unless fox has signed off on all the outstanding stuff, and renewed the licence fort at least another 2-3 years
It looks like 2x Martian Attack Forces $75 each plus a Robot $30 and The Surgeon and Rex for $8 - it has less Science Division minis though not that it matters much
Those veermyn are some lucky ducks... err rats, to be more precise.
Would be great to have some sort of marker for one erupting out of the ground.
Agreed...silly folks flyin' about...like a bunch o'eldar pretty boys!
Except that gyrocopter they made is SO sweet...so these Dwarves may learn to frolic.
And ground eruption markers would be good...though the Ramshackle model handles that aspect well.
Their Veer-myn would make great Chaos Nurgling Renegades
Dreadball Xtreme is now 50% off (£25/$40) in the Mantic store until midnight 31st October, in case there's any interest! It's now cheaper than buying two teams...
Bioptic wrote: Dreadball Xtreme is now 50% off (£25/$40) in the Mantic store until midnight 31st October, in case there's any interest! It's now cheaper than buying two teams...
Definitely a great deal, even if you just want the convicts for regular dreadball (where they are awesome).
Only downside is that it makes the $200 I dropped on the Kickstarter look like not such a great idea after all...
Most likely a stock clearance, since DBX had an odd release, with the initial game released, and then no rules to use teams with it for another 6 months, by which point people had lost interest.
Around 2 dozen+ local DB players in my city (and the largest UK regional tournament), but pretty much no DBX gets played.
Problem I feel with Dreadball is that whilst it's a great game (miles better then Bloodbowl) they absolutely saturated the market with teams. To many teams in such a short space of time that all my local DB players (had about 12) just got fed up with it all, then they released the DBX KS which was massively overkill. At the most they should of released one season per year and they could've made an event for each release.
overtyrant wrote: Problem I feel with Dreadball is that whilst it's a great game (miles better then Bloodbowl) they absolutely saturated the market with teams. To many teams in such a short space of time that all my local DB players (had about 12) just got fed up with it all, then they released the DBX KS which was massively overkill. At the most they should of released one season per year and they could've made an event for each release.
A season per year would have been better pacing, I'd have felt like I could buy all the teams and get them painted.
Not sure what will happen with releases in future, 25 teams and 59 MVPS (and counting) is quite a lot to choose from already, that's basically what blood bowl had at its peak, It feels very complete as a game.
I'd be happy with a new team and expansion once a year at this point.
DBX was actually done really well as a Kickstarter, the plastic used is great, way better than restic, and the hard plastic crates and terrain are really good, everything clips together properly.
I'd love to see a second edition of Dreadball, fixing some of the odd things in the rules (like slow teams also being the most vulnerable, hello Forge Fathers, and nimble, fast guys also being oddly resistant to damage). Up Jacks a bit. Bring down Strikers a bit. Sort out and balance the mess that is the current MvP-System.
Base game 2nd Ed. with updated rules and hard plastic Corporation and Marauders.
After that, revisit all the existing teams one a year in hard plastic.
I do wonder why it was promoted so little compared to DBO! Perhaps Mantic got cold feet after the entire thing was paid for and made.
One aspect is that I would never introduce new players to DBX over DBO - the former is just a lot more complicated to initially get your head around. Which means that the player base is quite likely to be a subset of an existing player base, making it quite a small number of people that are probably spread thinly.
But it is just a much better package than original Dreadball in every way! You get a lot more stuff in the box, nicer components, much less assembly, and there's plenty of meat to the game even without expansions.
Bioptic wrote: I do wonder why it was promoted so little compared to DBO!
Because the DBX rules were there just to rope in a few extra backers who had not previously heard of the game into what was really a DBO 4-6 Kickstarter.
You can count on it. They're already essentially working on a second edition of Deadzone and it's only been out less than 2 years.
With all the belly-aching about jacks in the game, it's a good bet DBO will see a relaunch in the relatively near future.
Just a quick request bump. If you guys see the octagonal building terrain kit (the stronghold IIRC) or the city quadrant on sale 50% off or more at places like Miniature Market (either daily deal or clearance), feel free to post. I'm thinking about getting a terrain set but I've got plenty of time to wait for an excellent deal compared with retail.
Black Friday in one month, baby. I'm saving my pfennigs. I usually wind up making two or three orders from Miniature Market (fill up cart to free shipping, order, fill up cart to free shipping, order, haha). Gotta be quick for their Black Friday deals tho!
GrimDork wrote: Yeah they're lightning fast and confusing cause you gotta dig through a spreadsheet... Well hard on my phone at least.
Well, you don't have to dig thru a spreadsheet. Using their website, I just narrow down the category to the manufacturers I care about and open new tab per product, add to cart on each page, eventually reaching $100, check out, start a new cart with other open tabs.
warboss wrote: Why start a new cart? Is there a benefit to ordering in $100 batches besides free shipping that doesn't apply if you just order $200+ in one go?
Because, having survived several of Miniature Market's black friday sales, the rapidity which items go out of stock is scary fast along with the frequency that the entire cart system crashes. It's best to check out as fast as possible to avoid having items go out of stock while you're waiting for the payment page to load.
Yeah, I didn't like the bodybuilder arms on the skaven before.. I think I'm even less fond of them now. Hmm.. wait.. does anyone sell arms like that? I think PW sells werewolf arms but I don't think they're made to hold weapons..
They look alot better now they've got some armour on their legs.
I'm liking everything I'm seeing so far for the verrmyn, even the brood mother, I just wish it was in a more interesting pose and had more options than what have been seen.
Seeing the actual figures, I'm thinking they'll look fine in flesh tones. It'll make them look more like monsterous aliens with rat-like features rather than full on rats.
Actually, as brown or grey rats or whatever.. I'm not sure I'll ever be fond of them but I just had a thought.. These guys painted like naked mole rats might look good. Barring that, I really want a set of normal, man-sized (non-buff) furry arms to slap on and I'd probably be perfectly content! (You hear that PW, Maxmini, Mad Robot, etc????). I'd have to convert the hell out of that Brood Mother to not feel like she should be hollowed out and used as a bounce-house for a 6mm game.
edlowe wrote: They look alot better now they've got some armour on their legs.
That's it exactly. I quite like the Shredders now.
I doubt I'll ever like the new Veer-myn as much as Remy's old ones, but I do like them, and may well kitbash them with the old ones anyway. I plan to have quite a bit of fun with them. There really haven't been many Mantic miniatures that I haven't found good use for, even the ones I didn't care for initially. If I don't like the whole sculpt, there's usually great bits from it that I can use.
The Brood Mother as is, I dunno. Not my favorite, but on the other hand, it's nice to see Mantic take a risk and do something outside the Skaven box. Ditto on the upcoming Tangle miniature, which I'm looking forward to seeing greens or renders for.
Even so, I think I'll probably end up using the Zombicide: Black Plague Rat abomination as my brood mother. I'm just too hooked on the raggedy horror aesthetic. I don't think ratmen can ever completely escape their humorous aspect, but some models do it better than others.
I guess that all sounds pretty equivocal, but in truth, as a Veer-myn fan I'm pretty happy with this update.
I think you just have to lean into it! Go for horrible pallid slimey-looking flesh, or sleek-looking jet black flesh, or even ruddy abused/mutated-looking flesh:
After all, Rat Ogres have been around for yonks, and people have come up with just about every variation under the sun for those!
That Rat Ogre half-models the other solution to bare arms. Same as they did for the legs: add armor. Much easier to do-it-yourself sculpt on than fur, I'd guess.
judgedoug wrote: Well, that settles it. I'm going to paint my space skaven dudes like that, with corroded gunmetal-painted-black armor plates. Thanks MLaw!
No problem.. those things are so freaky looking.. I really hope you're able to recreate that feeling that makes your skin crawl looking at them.
judgedoug wrote: Well, that settles it. I'm going to paint my space skaven dudes like that, with corroded gunmetal-painted-black armor plates. Thanks MLaw!
No problem.. those things are so freaky looking.. I really hope you're able to recreate that feeling that makes your skin crawl looking at them.
pinks, yellows, blues, purples - like painting one giant bruise. I'm thinking spraying with a light yellow - maybe army painter bone - and then splotchy red and purple washes, drybrush with dunkelgelb/desert yellow... hmm....
I'm not worried about the fur thing. I'm just assuming for myself that the fur is very fine and doesn't stick up at all angles. Rats are pretty meticulous about grooming themselves anyway, the only time they look bad is when their sick or maybe if they've been wet/in the gunk. Just gonna paint brown then transition to skin.
GrimDork wrote: I'm not worried about the fur thing. I'm just assuming for myself that the fur is very fine and doesn't stick up at all angles. Rats are pretty meticulous about grooming themselves anyway, the only time they look bad is when their sick or maybe if they've been wet/in the gunk. Just gonna paint brown then transition to skin.
The fur thing doesn't bother me so much as the arms are among the most muscular arms I've ever seen on a miniature. I would honestly prefer tufts at joints and areas effected by gravity though. On most furry creatures, the top side is smooth and the underside tends to be more noticeably bushy/furry.
Are those models the same size? Either way, I said among the most muscular. Considering the length of the Rat-Ogre's arms, if you scaled it to the same length as the uh (what are those called?) other arms, you'd see where I'm coming from. I was thinking proportionately when I typed that. *waits for the deluge of pictures of bigger arms*
I think it's a 40mm round and a 40 or 50mm square so... loosely equivalent.
Only thing I don't like about the veermyn scheme is that it's too clean looking. Probably just the painter's style-- and they look good-- but to my taste at least, they're too smooth and clean. I know they painted chips and weathering on some of the armor but the skin is just so smooth. Looks like the way you'd paint I dunno, an elf/lion centaur thing, not a dirty space rat.
They are pretty beefy, but they don't look ridiculously so to me.
They honestly don't look any more 'ridiculously beefy' than GW's rat ogres, to me at least.
But what the GW ones have is fur or armor, as others have said. Having the bare skin (and so much of it) really puts me off to the Veer-Myn. With a massive Skaven army still on my shelf, I -really- was hoping the Veer-myn would scratch a space-skaven itch I've had off and on for many years now. But they don't quite reach it... yet.
Yeah, I could customize/GS armor/fur, etc, etc. and for folks on the fence about them, that's definitely a viable (if time-consuming) option. Fur would probably be simplest, at least for my skill level (NOTHING!) it would. But I bet some folks out there could GS some serious armorplates on their arms or wherever.
I have to say, once painted, the figs -do- look much better than I first thought. I wouldn't pick yellow... (Cheese? Cowardice? Ugh), but I do think they look nicer.
Mort wrote: I have to say, once painted, the figs -do- look much better than I first thought. I wouldn't pick yellow... (Cheese? Cowardice? Ugh), but I do think they look nicer.
I suspect they're the victims of "All the good color schemes were already taken by our other armies."
Yoink!
Thanks for the heads up. Any time I feel bad about missing a Mantic Kickstarter I always remind myself that their stuff ends up in clearance pretty fast. Grabbed one and somewhat regretting missing the deals from last month or whenever now.
I picked up a mars attacks, struggled with whether or not to buy it overnight, but 40 models for $25 plus all the terrain....even though its mantic and I'm frustrated with them right now I still broke down. Plus martians.
Edit: Well, multiple (sets) mistakes were made. Lets just say lots of terrain, and plenty of martians for Warpath are going to get picked up on monday
I look at it as supporting my local plastic crack supplier.
Mars Attacks is a really solid game. It's good to go straight out of the box. My kids grasped it with no problems whatsoever. It's a simplified and streamlined Deadzone after all.
Grabbed one for a gift for a family member (not Barzam, he can get his own damn Martians!) so he can play with his nerd friends.
It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: They were gone by the time I saw the link. Maybe I'll get a chance on Black Friday...
Black Friday will probably see dungeon saga: see page xxx
I saw plenty of page XXX as a teenager, thanks.
DS for Black Friday could be a winner, though.
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overtyrant wrote: It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
I may not be representative of the entire hobby, but I find I will buy reasonably priced items and impulse buys at the FLGS, while waiting for super deals on huge sets or satisfactory price cuts on overpriced items via MM Black Friday sales. For example, I'll buy Bones or WGF/DFG minis at the FLGS, but I wouldn't buy Arcane Legions from the FLGS at the original MSRP, whereas I have bought 3 KOW armies' worth from MM at their 'just right' prices.
Mantic's KS campaigns have set their 'just right' prices far lower than their MSRPs. Live by the kickstarter/ die by the kickstarter.
overtyrant wrote: It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
This is off-topic but it's not KS. It's companies that use KS for their release cycle instead of a traditional funding model. Traditional funding and an actual preorder system help support an FLGS. Startups using KS to fund their initial products are not hurting FLGS because no sales are lost on something that doesn't exist from a company that may not exist if funding isn't successful.
MM is selling at a price that FLGS are refusing. Most FLGS I've seen sell at MSRP or even higher if they know it's a popular item or OOP. I went to a place in Fresno and there were boardgames there that were listed at $100 that have been in the bargain bin in just about every online store I've seen. My kids were like "dad can we get this" and I had to very softly explain no.. that game isn't made anymore and is on sale for $30 online.
Is it the FLGS fault that they don't reduce the price on their product to reflect the market? Most retailers get 40-60% off and some even more depending on the product and volume. Sticking to MSRP to maximize their cut is purely a business decision on their part and not the fault of any other retailer.
Sorry about the mini rant but I see this often and it is a little frustrating that people don't understand.
MiniatureMarket but it really applies to any of the online stores like Warstore etc. MM just happens to have a DotD program that offers massive discounts to stuff they have too much stock of.
Miniature Market, http://www.miniaturemarket.com/, the US go to place for cheap minis and games (sadly postage/VAT means savings tend not to be worth it to ship stuff over here)
TheWaspinator wrote: It's kind of weird situation for me, since I live about 20 minutes from Miniature Market so they basically are a FLGS for me.
Same here, I live less than 2 miles from them and stop by at least once a week to check their dinged and dented deals, usually score something awesome. You just have to time it right. I passed on a set of Mars attacks buildings from there the other day, guess they had gotten a shipment in and had a damaged box. I might have picked it up if I knew their deal of the day yesterday was going to be so good (snagged 3 boxes).
overtyrant wrote: It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
This is off-topic but it's not KS. It's companies that use KS for their release cycle instead of a traditional funding model. Traditional funding and an actual preorder system help support an FLGS. Startups using KS to fund their initial products are not hurting FLGS because no sales are lost on something that doesn't exist from a company that may not exist if funding isn't successful.
MM is selling at a price that FLGS are refusing. Most FLGS I've seen sell at MSRP or even higher if they know it's a popular item or OOP. I went to a place in Fresno and there were boardgames there that were listed at $100 that have been in the bargain bin in just about every online store I've seen. My kids were like "dad can we get this" and I had to very softly explain no.. that game isn't made anymore and is on sale for $30 online.
Is it the FLGS fault that they don't reduce the price on their product to reflect the market? Most retailers get 40-60% off and some even more depending on the product and volume. Sticking to MSRP to maximize their cut is purely a business decision on their part and not the fault of any other retailer.
Sorry about the mini rant but I see this often and it is a little frustrating that people don't understand.
Are you advocating that brick & mortar stores not sell @ MSRP? Sorry not sure I understand the mini-rant.
overtyrant wrote: It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
This is off-topic but it's not KS. It's companies that use KS for their release cycle instead of a traditional funding model. Traditional funding and an actual preorder system help support an FLGS. Startups using KS to fund their initial products are not hurting FLGS because no sales are lost on something that doesn't exist from a company that may not exist if funding isn't successful.
MM is selling at a price that FLGS are refusing. Most FLGS I've seen sell at MSRP or even higher if they know it's a popular item or OOP. I went to a place in Fresno and there were boardgames there that were listed at $100 that have been in the bargain bin in just about every online store I've seen. My kids were like "dad can we get this" and I had to very softly explain no.. that game isn't made anymore and is on sale for $30 online.
Is it the FLGS fault that they don't reduce the price on their product to reflect the market? Most retailers get 40-60% off and some even more depending on the product and volume. Sticking to MSRP to maximize their cut is purely a business decision on their part and not the fault of any other retailer.
Sorry about the mini rant but I see this often and it is a little frustrating that people don't understand.
Are you advocating that brick & mortar stores not sell @ MSRP? Sorry not sure I understand the mini-rant.
It's this simple. If Miniature Market can sell for below MSRP and thrive, even with shipping charges.. then FLGS should be able to sell at reduced rates. My FLGS when I lived in VA understood this and had a membership fee that netted you discounts and sales. They were very successful. From what others are saying, MM is a brick and mortar store too (it's their FLGS.. they say it here a few posts up)..
Anyway, this is related to Mantic, purely because they have been pushing through KS.. arguably alienating FLGSes. Which, in theory.. long term the FLGS should be Mantic's lifeblood for longevity but funding so heavily through KS, they are arguably pushing away the businesses that they need to survive.
Sining wrote: Isn't this why Mantic is releasing certain models only via retail outlets?
I'm sure a lot of retailers are thrilled.. except that a few retailer only models don't really fill the gap of the FLGS not selling the rest of the army the model is intended for. I would bet money that store owners see it as a token gesture at best.
Just a heads up, but Brookhurst Hobbies had Mantic undead boxes at 50% off last time I went there. They have some of the new army boxes, but not a lot and apparently without much expectation of movement.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Just a heads up, but Brookhurst Hobbies had Mantic undead boxes at 50% off last time I went there. They have some of the new army boxes, but not a lot and apparently without much expectation of movement.
When was the last time you were there? Last I went they had the new books and boxes, but none of the old stuff. At all. Believe me, I love digging through that store, and I came across nothing other than a few old Warpath metal blisters.
The three dollar Rackham goblins however... those all came home with me.
I think it was Friday? Maybe Thursday? They had easily 20 of the VHS boxes in the front table, where the Ronin Wars clearance used to be. It might be worth calling them.
overtyrant wrote: It's funny that some people claim that KS is driving business away from FLGS unfairly then you have MM that seems to me that they are driving business to them unfairly due to their price cuts, kind of like Amazon really. I'm just glad that there isn't a MM here in the UK, or the EU for that matter!
I've gotten 60-70% off Mantic more than a few times in the UK, northstar and ebay clearance sales happen sometimes.
Not a regular thing though.
A larger issue from a FLGS perspective is probably stuff like DBX being sold at 50% off on the Mantic store itself.
I do know that my local store isn't overly pleased with them kickstarting most things and the stock they have is quite static. They do back their Kickstarters as a retailer though, mainly a case of making the best of the situation.
Purely my opinion but I think it would make sense at this stage to hold off on it until Xmas is done and people have had at least one month to recover.
None and no update now for 3 weeks Mantic has gone very quiet on the subject which normally means delays I just don't see it shipping in January now. We have yet to see the jet bike, shredders, Steel Warriors or terrain sprues
Rules are in the process of coming together, they are a bit different from previous versions of Deadzone and are undergoing multiple iterations to polish them.
They seem to be trying to figure out some way to cope with the very vocal fall out from the Dungeon Saga misprinits/missing content that isn't going to involve them reprinting anything or shipping anything else to backers,
(Edit: personally I'd go for stickers to add page numbers and change what needs changing made available to all KS backers who actually requests them, cheap to send out and relatively cheap to print especially as a lot of people won't bother, but it will show they are willing to fix the fixable problems)
I would also hope they're having a thorough investigation about how the screw ups happened and who was responsible (other than Ronnie overpromising which they aren't going to be able to solve)
so hopefully they don't get the same on the incoming projects
Dungeon Saga issues mostly come down to missing scenarios, something which should be easy to remedy with an additional .pdf with all of the scenarios and maybe a few more.
I wonder if all the moaning and gnashing of teeth is due to a different crowd than usual for Mantic- more board gamers than the usual wargamers and hobbyists?
While I'm a bit miffed about the missing scenarios, and would much prefer having them printed than in pdf format, I also know the community will end up ironing out any kinks in the Invisible Overlord system... at least until Mantic ends up doing a Dungeon Saga 2.0 rulebook or something.
scarletsquig wrote: Dungeon Saga issues mostly come down to missing scenarios, something which should be easy to remedy with an additional .pdf with all of the scenarios and maybe a few more.
Anyone at the mantic open day? They've got some of the vehicles from the warpath kickstarter on display that I'd imagine people would appreciate pictures of.
It seems Deadzone is changing to 3x3 wonder how that will work with the current mats and will the new one be changed to 3x3. I always thought 2x2 was a bit small but for a more hybrid board game style game I could understand it.
Fisty Glue Man @FistyGlueMan 24m24 minutes ago
... 3x3 feet board (instead of 2x2), diferent rules for LOS (simpler). But still compatible with existing minis and terrains
Fisty Glue Man @FistyGlueMan 16m16 minutes ago
And finally they have some plans about an updated version of Project Pandora, similar to what they did for Dungeon Saga
Having 4x mats 3x3' is acceptable to me but that's a pretty big departure from the original game, and people just bought new pats for DZI in the 2x2' size when companies are readily cranking out 3x3 mats... I'll reserve judgement till I see the redux rules I guess.
Models look nice. Tunneler and asterian ship look much larger than the tank...which is supposed to be better than the size of a rhino so either its too small or those are huge...wish they had a mini in for scale.
I can't see 4x 3x3 being practical for me . . . I don't even have space for 4x 2x2 as it is. On the other hand, 1 3x3 mat would definitely be better than 1 2x2 mat, and I'll most likely be playing with one or two mats, maximum. So this could be good.
The tunneler and Asterian flyer look really good, but really big. I've been seeing a fair amount of chatter from 40K gamers recently about large vehicles being unwieldy for 28mm miniature wargames - I don't think that's anything new, it's just that I've recently become aware of it. (I follow 40K only sporadically and I mostly play skirmish games. Actually, I mostly think about playing skirmish games.) Long story short, I'm coming to agree with them. I just don't have a practical use for large vehicles or space to field them. So if I bought a tunneler, say, just because I like the Veer-myn and it looks fantastic, I'd probably never use it. Which is fine, but makes it even more of a luxury item. That actually makes the FF tank more appealing with its smaller size, but I'm not a fan of how the turret sits so close to the drop-off on the front of the tank. Looks a bit unstable, like the turret is a bit too large for the design, or should be set back a bit more.
I am thrilled that they are talking about re-launching Project Pandora Dungeon-Saga style. I don't take credit for inventing that idea or raising it first - I have no idea who did and don't care to do the research - but I take a little credit, because I was partly responsible for getting a conversation going during the Warpath KS about the idea that got Mantic interested and actively responding in the comments section. So maybe my role was in reality nil and they were going to do it anyway, but I'll live out my little fantasy and give myself a small pat on the back just the same.
Project Pandora Dungeon Saga style is my dream Mantic game! It would be the perfect gateway drug to get my family interested in Mantic's sci-fi universe, even more so than Mars Attacks, which has been the biggest success so far at home.
My only quibble would be that if I had my druthers, the miniatures would not be pre-assembled, and would be made in a more robust restic, if not hard plastic (although their boardgame plastic reformulations are getting sturdier). But I won't push for that, as in terms of the market it makes no sense and would in fact hurt the game's appeal to a broader boardgaming audience.
I'd be over the moon about this but for Mantic's switch to actual shipping charges from Europe to the USA. But I've already said my piece on that point and won't belabor it; I just hope it doesn't impact the overall participation of US backers / success of the campaign, as I'll be wanting to see as many expansions funded as possible. For myself, this is a project I would have gone in big for in the past. Whether I do now will depend on how tempting they can make the exclusives / benefits of pledging during the kickstarter, whenever it launches, since the contrast with buying retail prices won't be as significant as it once was.
But I'll definitely be in for the base pledge, and rooting for the project all the way. Hot damn! I really hope they can make the most of this. I could see a Project Pandora / Dungeon Quest mash-up becoming the ultimate sci-fi dungeon boardgame and ultimate sci-fi dungeon toolkit. If you want to play PP a la Space Hulk for a simple 2 player vs match, you can. If you want to play PP as a series of narrative DQ quests, you can. There are so many classic sci-fi scenarios that could be played out: Alien is the one that everyone thinks of first, but consider this - even Star Wars began with a Space corridor shoot-out. That said, if they don't include a vicious, more menacingly designed Zz'or faction for bug hunt scenarios, they're fools.
And for people playing Deadzone or Warpath looking for character models to liven up their squads, it's going to be a goldmine.
I wonder if they'll do an optional, 3d plastic space corridor battlezone kit, compatible with their current ones but optimized for Space Hulk style games? (Denser maze patterns possible, better visibility for figures in narrow corridors.) That would definitely be a luxury item, especially in the age of unsubsidized shipping. I'd want it, but probably wouldn't be able to afford a decent set-up. Maybe buy it piecemeal over the years if it is excellent.
Let me close this rambling salivating with a question for ye who have suffered through it:
What do you think? Would it be economically worthwhile for Mantic to invest in a 3-D, plastic sci-fi Space Hulk corridor kit? Is there enough of a market out there for something that pricy? Because in Deadzone, even one battlezone is useful. Tiny buildings work. But in Pandora, if you can't network a good amount of rooms and corridors, requiring a big buy-in, it's not worth it for the consumer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just noticed that that Steel Warriors sprue IS the complete Steel Warriors sprue, not one of 2 like the Enforcers have. Personally, I'm disappointed. I'm not a fan of integrated heads, and had intended to do a lot of head swaps on my new FF, which will now be more of a chore to pull off. I know the first Steel Warriors sprue had a few integrated head pieces, but I didn't like them, either, and unlike the new kit, they also had some with separate heads.
I'm sorry to see Mantic skimp on one of their core army sprues like this. It's still a great look for the FF, and will still be useful for people who just want alotta Space Dwarfs on the table, but it doesn't allow for much variation and will be harder to customize than I'd hoped. And making two out of five possible poses so distinctive - the running guy and guy with his foot on a rock - is going to make massed regiments with those identical poses look more silly.
That said, as a Veer-myn player I feel spoiled. The nightcrawler sprue is comparatively luxurious for whatever reason, and the heavy Veer-myn Shredder units will also be hard plastic, making them the only faction outside of the Enforcers (with their Peacekeepers) to get heavies in something other than restic or metal.
So you win some, you lose some. For me at least, the Veer-myn are the big winners of DZ2 and Warpath so far, while Mantic's flagship line, the FF, comes up short. (ha ha.)
How is that the entire FF sprue Verm? Do you have confirmation of someone official saying this? There are only six guns, we're supposed to have options for regular guns, all flamers, and all heavies, or so I believe the updates went. Also, I'm pretty sure that bottom row does not equate to torsos AND heads to match the legs... there *has* to be another sprue. Just has to be.
*I mean to say, how is that sprue the entirety of the steel warriors, there just has to be more than one sprue.
GrimDork wrote: How is that the entire FF sprue Verm? Do you have confirmation of someone official saying this? There are only six guns, we're supposed to have options for regular guns, all flamers, and all heavies, or so I believe the updates went. Also, I'm pretty sure that bottom row does not equate to torsos AND heads to match the legs... there *has* to be another sprue. Just has to be.
*I mean to say, how is that sprue the entirety of the steel warriors, there just has to be more than one sprue.
Maybe the other parts of the sprue were deformed and they couldn't get a 100% sprue there in time, so chose to hide the faulty part of the test run to avoid another "melty goblin" scenario?
Yeah see, way more arms and parts that look like they'll be torsos and heads when I can take a better look later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh huh... Looks like they've got empty closed hands that the guns go onto, the rifles at least, much like tactical space marines? Interesting switch from hands-attached to guns all around.
Much obliged, NTRabbit. Now I'm glad I went for 20 of the little guys on DZI.
And thanks to Thraxas for posting the pics here in the first place.
On the Mantic Fantasy thread there's people buzzing about a licensed upcoming post-apocalyptic project that I know everyone's already aware of. Personally, I'm hoping it turns out to be Mad Max, as I would have no interest in that.
If it's Fallout, I'm dead meat. The last thing my budget needs is a second genre to spend money on.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Fisty Glue Man needs to be more careful. I was pretty close to losing even more esteem for Mantic.
What, because of my runaway assumption about the FF sprue photo?
Fellas, I've got a Ph.D. that's supposed to prove I have some kind of smarts, but I am so very, very dumb in so many ways.
My apologies for the false alarm, Bob.
Runaway assumption? I think you mean plausible hypothesis supported by reams of suggestive evidence. If this were DFG or WGF, you wouldn't have even entertained the notion that the one sprue was the only sprue. But with Mantic, you're almost waiting for the other shoe to drop. "What did they almost this time?"
Interestingly, he says Fantasy 3-D terrain is not happening soon because the Sci-Fi terrain hasn't been selling very well. Which is odd, when you think that they just decided to create even more Sci-Fi terrain with the last Deadzone KS campaign.
Open Day was lots of fun, saw the secret IP thing (which is going to be huge, it is not a small or obscure IP, it is an absolute goliath, something extremely well-known and popular).
Ronnie mentioned in the seminar that Dungeon Saga is now out of print, and that their initial print run of 1k copies (6k of which went to KS backers) has now 100% sold out. If you want ti from a store, get it quick, there won't be any new copies until the new year.
Ronnie also mentioned that sci-fi Dungeon Saga could be a thing.
Calling it now: Cormac McCarthy's The Road. Fun for the whole family. Can't wait for the Blood Meridian expansion to pick up Judge Holden and some toddler tree terrain.
I could get down with some kind of main stream game, get more people to play it. If it *were* fallout, I'd go crazy, but there are a lot of other solid titles with similar themes that could also go over well.
Scifi dungeon saga too. May fit even better than regular dungeon saga as people will probalby be slightly less inclined to shoehorn as many RPG elements into it. I could certainly use some more rebs/veermyn/plague/whatevertheydoifitsinthewarpathuniverse.
set in the capital city of Mantica, see if the Basilians can buy up the street of fishmongers, or if the Forge Fathers can corner the market on horse and carage stations
I'm nowhere near as crazy for Fallout as some people, but I'd love to see some of the Brotherhood power armors be realized as tabletop pieces. Deathclaws too.
Hell I'd settle for a reskinned Deadzone with Wasteland/ Fallout style post apoc figures.
Forget the Paramount thing, not sure where I read it.. there was some article or interview where they explained that they got the Mars Attacks license while seeking another license.
Same, but I do love the generic post apoc setting. I love the look of This Is Not a Test, but hesitate to jump in as it's very small time and getting interest in it will be a lot of work. If it's Fallout that work is already done.
Interestingly, he says Fantasy 3-D terrain is not happening soon because the Sci-Fi terrain hasn't been selling very well. Which is odd, when you think that they just decided to create even more Sci-Fi terrain with the last Deadzone KS campaign.
They released their plastic terrain on the cusp of a veritable explosion of scifi (and fantasy and historical to a lesser extent) MDF laser cut terrain. There are tons of companies doing scifi terrain and more seemingly every month. I really like their plastic deadzone terrain but I suspect the glut of "prettier" non-blocky MDF alternatives for cleaner scifi settings like infinity can't be good for their business. I'm still on the market for some of their plastic terrain but I'm waiting for a deep, deep discount before taking the plunge.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I'm nowhere near as crazy for Fallout as some people, but I'd love to see some of the Brotherhood power armors be realized as tabletop pieces. Deathclaws too.
Those already exist, you can get them from Brothr Vinni. Basically exact copies.
Just please let it not be Fallout. Ugh, I'd spend so much on that. There aren't any factions in the game I wouldn't like to own as minis! It seems an unlikely IP for them, though - Mantic throws curveballs that no one was asking for. Prodos is the studio that goes after the obvious, big-time licenses . . . sadly, they're clearly unable to handle them.
I'm calling it now - Fallout will be done, someday, by Prodos games, and it will be a total disaster for anyone fool enough to back the kickstarter.
In a few weeks, Mantic will announce that their IP property is Jason of Star Command.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: They released their plastic terrain on the cusp of a veritable explosion of scifi (and fantasy and historical to a lesser extent) MDF laser cut terrain.
That doesn't explain why they are now preparing to release even more plastic sci-fi terrain after the explosion of MDF laser cut terrain has already hit, though.
The two properties I have heard hint-dropped from folks who would know are genuinely big properties, and both have been culturally relevant in the last calendar year, which is why I said that either would make me very, very happy.
I think people will be pleased, and I wouldn't be totally shocked if we heard about it soon as someone will inevitably leak info, and Mantic will want to get ahead of that.
More importantly, to me, is that people who have PLAYED an early version of said game, rave about it, and say it is genuinely a terrific game beyond any IP hype, etc...
That doesn't explain why they are now preparing to release even more plastic sci-fi terrain after the explosion of MDF laser cut terrain has already hit, though.
Weird timing.
Planning might not be the best word to use. The kickstarter ended around 8 months ago and the planning was probably months before that. At this point, they're legally obligated by thousands of KS contracts to release it, refund it, or account financially for why neither of those two will happen. The scifi terrain option explosion has been continuing for the past year and getting even bigger it seems so likely when they were planning it wasn't as big of an issue but is now. Maybe their sales dipped more recently.. dunno.
Where did you get the idea that the terrain sales are flagging anyways? I took your post about that as fact in developing my response/conjecture but it would be nice to see the original info about worse terrain sales.
Where did you get the idea that the terrain sales are flagging anyways? I took your post about that as fact in developing my response/conjecture but it would be nice to see the original info about worse terrain sales.
I made it up.
Ok, seriously, I got the information from the fisty glue man / children of the kraken guy who went to the Open Day. I have presumed that this person got the information from a session or discussion with Ronnie or something, but could be mistaken.
Despite the jokey tone, I actually intend no disrespect, btw. And I take your point about the lag time between planning and fulfilling a KS campaign. But Mantic's terrain has been on the market since Deadzone. If it was going well until recently, I'd be a little surprised that they'd turn tail so quickly on terrain.
Personally I can't stand MDF and won't invest in it. Don't like the texture.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The two properties I have heard hint-dropped from folks who would know are genuinely big properties, and both have been culturally relevant in the last calendar year, which is why I said that either would make me very, very happy.
I think people will be pleased, and I wouldn't be totally shocked if we heard about it soon as someone will inevitably leak info, and Mantic will want to get ahead of that.
More importantly, to me, is that people who have PLAYED an early version of said game, rave about it, and say it is genuinely a terrific game beyond any IP hype, etc...
The 3x3 thing is not set in stone. I attended the 2nd seminar regarding Mantic's past/future. It's not yet decided upon. Only that 2x2 is too small. Ronnie said that 3x3 as they currently do it would not go through a printing press/machine, but they are looking at what can be done. 4x2 (4x3? I'm sorry that I am terrible at numbers) was too restrictive, but ultimately it sounded like they want a versatile board system that would allow for long range shooting, sniping, etc.
They know 2x2 is too small. That's the only certainty we were given. They're still thinking shapes, materials, etc.
Sorry, I know that's not as snappy as a tweet.
I'm glad to hear someone from Dakka got in the secret room. It was a very fun idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading that blog, I was in the same seminar. I can quote that up and expand/confirm/deny/admit I wasn't paying attention to the points tomorrow.
Bear in mind one person's "fact" is another person's ramble. And whilst Ronnie is easily the most charismatic spokesperson for Mantic, he doesn't do linear explanations.
Hell, I'm awake, here's the gak I can remember before it floats out of my ears overnight. Spoilered because formating and size.
Spoiler:
Buttery Commissar wrote: Mantic Things I learned today at the seminar:
They are going to hire a dedicated communication and customer relations person for future KS. They are very well aware things were leaving folks soured.
For the future Kickstarters, they're looking to up staff levels appropriately and make sure the software is foolproof.
They are keen to work on some dungeon furniture packs as a future product line based on the reactions to the plastic scenery. I didn't get the gist of the timescale.
The DS game sold out its entire print run. 18k printed, 6k went to KS, 12k went to stores and preorders.
Ronnie is keen for: There to be foam in the boxes for the expansions. This may not end up being a thing. Plastic fantasy terrain much like the current sci fi range. Convincing sculptors and that it will sell well is the obstacle.
Start saving for February. (Bear in mind I don't get newsletters, or KS updates, this may not be news.
Responding to the linked blog post...
Cards are officially gone, stats, missions etc are now in the book. Ronnie said that they felt the cards were not working as they thought, so they scrapped them from the new release.
The action cards that were used to give extra actions to the units are now replaced by command dices, D6 with special symbols on each face, each symbol gives you a specific additional action. One of these symbols will give a different bonus depending on the army/commander you are using (similar to a feat in warmachine).
Yes, this I understood. Basically they want to speed things up a lot, and have everything in front of you on the table. No cards, and easy marking with dice.
Something else mentioned was the streamlining makes the game figures less individual characters, and more squad, army like, with leaders and grunts. BUT if you want to get elbow deep and design your army from the boots upwards, there will also be a way to do this. The idea is quick access, but also a toolkit for advanced players.
The size of the board will change from 2 feet x 2 feet to 3x3, this is intended to use better the weapons' range (that now is a little underused)
"Will change" I would say is "under consideration to become". See my above ramble.
They are thinking about doing a simple KS about fantasy/sci-fi furniture terrains (like proper furniture, crates, obstacles...), this is mostly aimed to RPG players and the idea came up after they did the fantasy furniture for Dungeon Saga. (Which it would seem it's loved by the RPG players)
The joyous reactions and low price point of the plastic DS dungeon furniture is leading to serious consideration of this as a thing. They want to hit the Roleplayer and D&D player markets as the equivalent in resin is less durable, less portable, and pricier.
(This was not given a timeline or anything further than severe enthusiasm.)
They are not considering at the moment about making fantasy terrains, it's in their TODO list but not in the immediate future. It seems that the sci-fi terrain for DZ didn't sell so well so they are holding back on this.
Ronnie has some ideas for fantasy terrain that he wants to see made. However the majority of the DZ terrain sold in the KS, and the sales in stores didn't follow the trend of the KS sales. After the expensive tooling of the sci fi terrain, they are reticent to commit to the fantasy. Sales were described as consistent, but "not as high as expected". I didn't read that as bad, just not a storming success.
The other obstacle mentioned is that the design Ronnie has in mind, he has been told isn't really possible by the sculptor. I have no further clue what that means. I want to think gothic buttresses, but I want to think everything is about gothic buttresses.
They will release a "game night kit" to the retailers where players will face waves on enemies and try to survive as long as they can, there will be some sort of ranking system.
This was described as an organised play kit, and something for games clubs. A games club could buy this from their games store, or order it from Mantic, and run challenges where the players can accrue experience I think. It was mentioned that both heroes and the overlord would reap benefits.
I believe the ranking system will be online, as they're talking about rolling such ranking and community sites out for their other systems internationally.
Very early on in Dungeon Saga playtest meets they were talking about building an online community where people could share heroes and discuss tactics, so it ties in with that old seed of an idea.
They are thinking about a new version of Project Pandora, it will be what Dungeon Saga is related to the old Dwarf King's Hold.
This was Ronnie's parting "leak" of the seminar. Pandora Saga brewing, and on a possibly related, possibly completely unrelated note, start saving for February 2016.
The team had different ideas about what to use to hold the dungeon saga game contents. Ronnie summarized his views with something like: "my little pony treasure chests are , book tomes are good"
One designer (the only designer? I don't know), Stuart, wanted to put them in a collective chest. Ronnie doesn't.
Ronnie wants to look at including foam in the expansion boxes if practical. I don't believe that's slotted foam so much as "gak doesn't bang around in here" foam. Conversation quickly swept away elsewhere, so it wasn't expanded on.
Doubt we'll even see those before the PM closes. Sadly. I may give them a pass till retail. Given how much I like the old ones, how giant and goofy the GCPS helmets look on the zombies (I mean they're giant helmets, the zombies really slide back towards heroic scale), I'm not as optimistic as I might have been years ago. Fingers crossed, however.
I think I may still order a 3 pack of mules sight unseen just for the fairly strong value.
I sure hope they show final renders before the pm closes. If I don't pick up any in the PM for $1/mini, I doubt I'll buy any at all. By the time they hit retail, GoA, MEdge, and WGF Mystery Sci Fi kit will all be available at the FLGS, and priced competitively to Mantic's retail scheme.
But I didn't use the word "planning." That was your word.
Sorry, you're correct. You said "preparing", not planning. I'd have made the same points though regardless.
Ok, seriously, I got the information from the fisty glue man / children of the kraken guy who went to the Open Day. I have presumed that this person got the information from a session or discussion with Ronnie or something, but could be mistaken.
Despite the jokey tone, I actually intend no disrespect, btw. And I take your point about the lag time between planning and fulfilling a KS campaign. But Mantic's terrain has been on the market since Deadzone. If it was going well until recently, I'd be a little surprised that they'd turn tail so quickly on terrain.
Personally I can't stand MDF and won't invest in it. Don't like the texture.
Thanks for the link and no offense taken. It looks like Buttery confirmed the blog post (thanks for that Buttery) as well in the meantime. Consider me officially surprised despite the fact that I myself have been holding off on buying it despite my interest. People really seemed excited when that came out and I saw some very nice builds posted here on dakka. The deadzone release kind of coincided with the beginning of the MDF terrain craze (lasers for everyone!!!) and maybe it put more of a damper on that than I thought. I'm not a huge fan of the MDF either and would prefer some black friday terrain bundle instead (or Miniature Market huge discount on individual kits) as long as the hexagon building with curved corners is included.
If it's Mad Max, I can probably take a break from the Mantic KS train. I'm strangely not that interested in putting together or painting vehicles for a vehicle-centric game these days.
But if it's Fallout? Oh, man. I'll be diverting planned Warpath Pledge Manager funds and *still* go ahead and break the bank while I'm at it. If they did a Fallout game even as well as Mars Attacks, I'd be like a kid in a candy store. If they did it *better*, I'm done for.
I was also lucky enough to get a ticket to the secret room, has me wondering who Scarletsquig was now! (I was the guy who played standing up)
Was awesome, drew on bits from a lot of games both Mantic and not Mantic, I'm not even a big Mantic fan but it ticked a lot of boxes already in terms of wish listing what I'd like to see.
I do like the Open Days, though again it felt like a better layout would have stopped the main room being a big pile of congestion. The Warpath vehicles surprised me in terms of design and appearance, better than pics suggested by a mile, and again this isn't from a real fan. Even the dodgier Dungeon a Saga expansion sculpts looked better in person!
Was quite noticeable that Mars Attacks was barely present bar a stack of graphic novels in the store!
Heh, Tangle in the WP ks they went out of their way to go on about the art not being final, and how it needed to be more evil looking ... the model looks exactly like the art!
Not that its not cool looking as is tho. Rat standing on a blanket of rats being pulled in a rat chariot, whats not to like
What is the figure in the front? Still as long as thats a 20 or 25 mm square base they're pretty big huh.
That tank does in fact look as big or bigger than a rhino, and the other two are massive. If the tooling, quality, ease of assembly, and so forth are up to scratch... the $25/per (though only while bundling, I know) is pretty damn nice.
Mymearan wrote: That tank looks worse than the $6 one I got from Tehnolog. The vehicles all look like cheap toys. That doomwheel is pretty cool though.
Seriously? I need to pull out my Tehnolog tank again and have a look, but that seems a bit harsh.
The doomwheel does look good; my main concern is I think it's likely to be done in metal, since Mantic refused to say it would be done in resin during the KS.
I'll have to get my hands on a tunneler at some point (if they turn out well), just to have it as a terrain element during Deadzone games as a colorful bit of scenery. But the bundle deals are absurd to me - I can't imagine ever needing three of any of these vehicles.
(But then, I'm not a mass wargamer.)
I still wonder if the even pricing of these vehicles will change when they hit retail. I could easily see the smaller FF tanks costing less than the tunneler or Asterian ship, for example.
RiTides wrote: Do we know when the new Deadzone rules are being revealed (at least I'm beta form)?
Hey guys, I didn't see if anyone answered this - is it not known / is there any info here?
I committed to a set of ModCube tokens for it and have 20 backers I need to eventually send these to in a makeup package, so just trying to figure out a timeline for when I should plan to make them
Mymearan wrote: That tank looks worse than the $6 one I got from Tehnolog. The vehicles all look like cheap toys. That doomwheel is pretty cool though.
Bear in mind I didn't pledge for these vehicles, and I have no interest in the game itself, so I have no real reason to defend them... You're being overly critical based on a few snapped phone pics.
Perhaps it's the photos, but the vehicles looked very impressive and solid construction in person, within the limitations of the presented materials. The tank was retiring shyly at the back, but both that and the flyer on the next shelf gave the impression of solidly built, menacing futuristic vehicles. Once rendered in plastic, I can see them standing toe to toe with other tanks easily.
The massive drill and alien croissant stole the show, but the little guardsman in me was delighted by the tank. Slightly confused by everything else. It's okay though, he got cake.
Mymearan wrote: That tank looks worse than the $6 one I got from Tehnolog. The vehicles all look like cheap toys. That doomwheel is pretty cool though.
Bear in mind I didn't pledge for these vehicles, and I have no interest in the game itself, so I have no real reason to defend them... You're being overly critical based on a few snapped phone pics.
Perhaps it's the photos, but the vehicles looked very impressive and solid construction in person, within the limitations of the presented materials. The tank was retiring shyly at the back, but both that and the flyer on the next shelf gave the impression of solidly built, menacing futuristic vehicles. Once rendered in plastic, I can see them standing toe to toe with other tanks easily.
The massive drill and alien croissant stole the show, but the little guardsman in me was delighted by the tank. Slightly confused by everything else. It's okay though, he got cake.
It's a snap judgement for sure, but the tank and flyer especially look like they would be right at home in the toy aisle. It's not just the level of detail, it's the aesthetic. Someone said they are going for the Saturday morning cartoon vibe, which I agree with, although in my case it's a big negative. I play Enforcers in Deadzone, and I really like the rebs, but Forge Fathers and Asterians are going in a direction I really dislike.
I think the Veer-myn tunneler needs a more mad sciencey vibe to fit the faction better. I understand that it's appropriated tech from the Corporations, but the ratmen would have rejiggered it for warfare and used malign and questionable technologies to bling it out. Even the big gun could use more cables and bizarre electrical whatnots. Unless that's just my Skaven expectations talking, and Mantic intend to put Veer-myn technology on firmer footing.
I guess this way it has more crossover appeal, since it could really fit into any sci-fi faction with its unblemished, functional design. Invested Veer-myn players can corrupt it themselves through modification.
I do expect that, if the model turns out decent, we'll be seeing some pretty impressive conversions and dioramas centered around the tunneler come out. It's perfect for a subterranean scene. Makes me think of Total Recall and Red Faction.
I'm cool with the Asterians except for the "we need some scantily clad, overmuscled sex appeal in this droid faction" Kalyshi. I'll be substituting some Eldar models in for those. Don't need the flyer, though. It's not bad, but it doesn't really compete with Eldar / Dark Eldar flyers. Except in terms of casting quality. I'm sure it will blow GW out of the water in that department, and for almost exactly the same retail price.
What makes you say a Mantic product will beat a GW product on casting quality? Has Mantic released a single sprue post-Renedra that matched GW quality?
The Peacekeepers are perhaps the best recent Mantic sprue, but them's some smooshy faces.
Are the GW Eldar flyers really only 30ish-40ish dollars? Isn't that Mantic's intended MSRP on their Asterian flyers? I can't imagine Ronnie selling a $65 flyer with a straight face.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What makes you say a Mantic product will beat a GW product on casting quality? Has Mantic released a single sprue post-Renedra that matched GW quality?
The Peacekeepers are perhaps the best recent Mantic sprue, but them's some smooshy faces.
Are the GW Eldar flyers really only 30ish-40ish dollars? Isn't that Mantic's intended MSRP on their Asterian flyers? I can't imagine Ronnie selling a $65 flyer with a straight face.
Hi Bob,
Actually, we agree. I was just being sarcastic with that "casting quality" comment.
To be fair, we don't really know the MSRP on the Asterian flyers yet, we're just guessing based on past experience with KS vs. retail price differences. You're probably right about the Eldar flyers ending up being more expensive, though. I certainly hope so.
Orlanth wrote: Where is the sourcing or source rumour for a post-apocalypse game from Mantic?
Ronnie Renton.
Also members of the public that got into the "special room" (no, the other "special room"....) on Saturday. It's my understanding the public announcement is fairly soon.
I'm about 90% sure it's deliberate. Until the guy next to him in the seminar makes a face like, "No Ronnie, no." and I wonder what the hell just happened.
Orlanth wrote: Where is the sourcing or source rumour for a post-apocalypse game from Mantic?
Ronnie Renton.
Also members of the public that got into the "special room" (no, the other "special room"....) on Saturday. It's my understanding the public announcement is fairly soon.
Everyone that got into the 'other special room' signed an NDA?
Orlanth wrote: Where is the sourcing or source rumour for a post-apocalypse game from Mantic?
Ronnie Renton.
Also members of the public that got into the "special room" (no, the other "special room"....) on Saturday. It's my understanding the public announcement is fairly soon.
Everyone that got into the 'other special room' signed an NDA?
I'm fairly sure I am the only one who "technically" hasn't signed an NDA, but I am working Ronnie HARD to let me on the design team, so I wouldn't want to risk saying anything stupid. I will say people will (most of you) will be impressed and will want to throw a lot of money at this one. I'm quite impressed and its a property I could make my career working on.
Also, to the individual who thinks Ronnie is intentionally teasing... maybe so, but have you met the guy? He's like a little kid. He's so sincerely excited about what he is doing, all the time, that he conveys ideas (and secrets) like a kid passionately describing what's happening on their favorite show (and not caring if it necessarily makes sense... because the enthusiasm has taken hold). :-p
Mymearan wrote: I'll take that PM myself. I keep secrets like Superman keeps briefs. (?)
Outside your trousers?
Superman's not even rockin' that style anymore, so clearly Mymearancan't be trusted.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I could break NDA about a ridiculous horror-comedy-musical video-game I am working on, which is of suspect quality. Would that count? :-p
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I could break NDA about a ridiculous horror-comedy-musical video-game I am working on, which is of suspect quality. Would that count? :-p
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I could break NDA about a ridiculous horror-comedy-musical video-game I am working on, which is of suspect quality. Would that count? :-p
Has this been posted elsewhere on dakkadakka? It's a shame if he's only posting on bgg, which isn't really as miniature focused as well... any other minis game fansite!
I'd love to know whether the new licensed property is Fallout if anyone feels like sharing. Knowing would save me time and money. Not to mention allowing me to start saving for the KS.
Taarnak wrote: I'd love to know whether the new licensed property is Fallout if anyone feels like sharing. Knowing would save me time and money. Not to mention allowing me to start saving for the KS.
Any of you guys been in contact with Mantic lately. I've still not received the missing items from my DBX pledge and I've contacted them several times this week and last week for an update, but I haven't received any responses.
Barzam wrote: Any of you guys been in contact with Mantic lately. I've still not received the missing items from my DBX pledge and I've contacted them several times this week and last week for an update, but I haven't received any responses.
Facebook has worked for my buddy. He's posted on their FB site and Ronnie has personally gotten involved.
You might want to give it a try.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What if we don't want our facebook friends to know we're tabletop wargames?
Then you need to find friends who don't write you off because of your interests.
I'll do that just after I find a job doing what I love so that I'll never work a day in my life.
I mean, it was kind of a joke, but on the other hand, most people pretty much have to be facebook friends with their in-laws, church members, and other judge mental types whom we don't want to know how we live. Please don't make me be myself on facebook.
Make a second FB account. My wife has one to use for online rummage sales and similar transactions so as to keep family photos and personal stuff separate from people she's going to interact with once.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What if we don't want our facebook friends to know we're tabletop wargames?
Then you need to find friends who don't write you off because of your interests.
I'll do that just after I find a job doing what I love so that I'll never work a day in my life.
I mean, it was kind of a joke, but on the other hand, most people pretty much have to be facebook friends with their in-laws, church members, and other judge mental types whom we don't want to know how we live. Please don't make me be myself on facebook.
Then add those people to your Acquaintances group, and make all your wargaming posts to Friends But Not Acquaintances. Or toss 'em in another group of your own making.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What if we don't want our facebook friends to know we're tabletop wargames?
Then you need to find friends who don't write you off because of your interests.
I'll do that just after I find a job doing what I love so that I'll never work a day in my life.
I mean, it was kind of a joke, but on the other hand, most people pretty much have to be facebook friends with their in-laws, church members, and other judge mental types whom we don't want to know how we live. Please don't make me be myself on facebook.
Oh, I don't use FB so I'm unfamiliar of this requirement to be online friends with people you know "IRL".
I came to the conclusion early on in life that "friends" who can't accept you for who you are aren't really friends, and often aren't worth knowing.
But to each their own, and it's getting a bit off topic.
I actually hope the new game is Fallout. It'll mean it's a game I have no interest in and don't have to throw money at. If it's Mad Max, I'm in trouble. And I could probably EASILY get my roommate into it. And he's not a miniatures gamer.
Everyone: I'm glad we're all discussing the finer points of molding my life towards the end of receiving acceptable customer service from Mantic. Obviously I can't just expect them to respond to my emails and contact forms.
Torrent of abuse incoming! Mantic has released a Deadzone update indicating that most of the metal/resin stuff from the Kickstarter is now being produced in the Dungeon Saga plastics:
Bioptic wrote: Torrent of abuse incoming! Mantic has released a Deadzone update indicating that most of the metal/resin stuff from the Kickstarter is now being produced in the Dungeon Saga plastics:
but nowhere near as nice as the resin from the same project,
if anybody paid for resin I'd suggest asking for a refund
if you paid for metal mantic's casting seems to sufficiently variable that dust style plastic might be ok from a quality point of view (but if you wanted weight/heft it's refund time again)
they really, really need to stop messing around and stick to doing what they promised to do, what you offer should not be a guideline, it should be what you deliver
I've defended mantic plenty in the past but bloody hell, swapping a bunch of models from resin or metal to boardgame plastic well after the pledge manager is done is very fething shoddy indeed. No change in cost, no extra models (except in 1 case), they're not even trying to soften the blow.
Get everyone excited for a new IP then weeks before give your backers the shaft, GG...
Bioptic wrote: Torrent of abuse incoming! Mantic has released a Deadzone update indicating that most of the metal/resin stuff from the Kickstarter is now being produced in the Dungeon Saga plastics:
If those are the same quality as the Mars Attacks plastics, and if they adjust the price accordingly, then I will be happy with this decision.
Edit: not very happy. Just slightly happy.
At last we violently disagree! Let slip the dogs of war!
OK, not violently. Here's my take:
Converting metal to plastic: a good thing for me.
Converting resin to Dust Studios PVC: Yeah, I just got some Dust figures at the FFG sale delivered, and they're fairly poor quality. Passable, but I'd take Mantic's restic over the Dust PVC any day. Also, from what I've seen of the Dungeon Saga plastics online, I'm not impressed. That's not the same as seeing them in person, though.
Overall reaction: Some of this benefits me (less metal), some of it is a pretty major disappointment (losing resin to low-quality PVC). But overall, a last minute switch of this scope, on a KS project as recent as this one after they're supposed to know better? They've lost a lot of my trust. I think from this point on I'll stick with the obvious HIPS kits from Mantic - the ones they can't change at the last minute without shooting themselves in the foot - and that's it. Starting with the Warpath PM, which I've already pledged $100 unassigned dollars on. All that's going to $20/20 HIPS deals and nothing else will be added.
I know Mantic have been trying to watch their budgeting more carefully, but this is ridiculous. If they stand to lose money or be inconvenienced, the customer definitely comes second now. Sheesh.
Whatever the new IP is, I think I'll wait a year after it's released and pick it up on clearance this time. Scratch that. It'll be in boardgame plastic and I'll skip it entirely.
Oh, and for everybody who enjoys kicking MEdge like a dog? Guess which company doesn't pull garbage like this on their customers, or manufacture any figures in half-@ssed materials? Guess where I'll be spending more money from this point on?
. Could have gangs trying to scavenge and survive (necromunda and gorkamorka).
)
Well, multiple (sets) mistakes were made. Lets just say lots of terrain, and plenty of martians for Warpath are going to get picked up on monday 
