BrookM wrote: €35,- is a bit steep for the Achilles, but damn it, kinda want one.
I'd argue that it's reasonably priced and makes the Ork buggies look way overpriced.
The whole Start Collecting comment has me VERY interested to see any pictures relating to it now.
I mean, as someone who very frequently uses the ork buggies, I gotta disagree with that sentiment. The only two buggies the ridgerunner outperforms are the snazzwagon (arguably pays for -1 to hit, burna bombs and the ability to actually move around and fire its weapons) and the squigbuggy...which....gold star for that, lol. A wet fart in a paper bag outperforms the squigbuggy.
The lascannon variant is 40 points less than the shokkjump dragsta, which gets 25% more damage vs vehicles, the ability to move and fire its weapons, and clan traits (which can be +1 to hit, super-salamander hit wound and damage reroll+obsec+6++, or reroll 1s to hit, ridgerunner doesn't get cult traits). I'd take the shokkjump over the lascannon ridgerunner any day, the ridgerunner gets to move 9" once and then it better be within 24" of every target its ever going to want to shoot for the rest of the game.
I'd REALLY rather take a skrapjet over the lascannon ridgerunner, since it gets double the stubber shots, the same anti-tank output, the ability to move and shoot, clan traits, and it's a space marine with a chainfist in melee with bonus mortal wounds on the charge.
The KBB really fills a different role. It's tough to compare a stationary gunline vehicle with an anti-tank gun with a vehicle with an anti-light vehicle gun that also has 4d3 flamer shots strapped onto it.
We're talking about the price of the physical model...I'd say it makes them look overpriced with the fact that the Orks are single-build but same price.
As opposed to the ridgerunner coming with 4 extra bits you won't use?
Yeah, they might throw on an extra 10% for funsies over the ork buggies when they do the price in real money, Wallabybux, kiwifruits, or Chuck E. Cheese tokens backed by the Hockey Puck standard.
It seems that the genestealers are affected by the "CULT" keyword..
Yeah, no. The strange thing is that apparently InControl playtested the codex for 2 months. So either GW got cold feet and did a last minute nerf to Genestealers and Patriarch, or Geoff completely missed it (and reported corrupt data to GW for 2 months).
He had access to the codex, but he only just joined the playtesting team, so didn't actually playtest it. That is almost literally the first thing he says in the video.
BrookM wrote: Ray's twitter will sooner or later also show off some of the other cool stuff you can do with this kit, as he's done in the past with the city and industrial kits.
Fifty wrote: He had access to the codex, but he only just joined the playtesting team, so didn't actually playtest it. That is almost literally the first thing he says in the video.
I stand corrected that he hasn't had any say or input into the codex, at 2:10. He's had the codex and played with it for two months though, 2:20.
Causalis wrote: In the codex a start collecting GSC box is mentioned. It says something like "The army in the picture is comprised of a SCGSC box" and it shows Neos, Acos, a Goliath and a Primus.
I mean, as someone who very frequently uses the ork buggies, I gotta disagree with that sentiment. The only two buggies the ridgerunner outperforms are the snazzwagon (arguably pays for -1 to hit, burna bombs and the ability to actually move around and fire its weapons) and the squigbuggy...which....gold star for that, lol. A wet fart in a paper bag outperforms the squigbuggy.
The lascannon variant is 40 points less than the shokkjump dragsta, which gets 25% more damage vs vehicles, the ability to move and fire its weapons, and clan traits (which can be +1 to hit, super-salamander hit wound and damage reroll+obsec+6++, or reroll 1s to hit, ridgerunner doesn't get cult traits). I'd take the shokkjump over the lascannon ridgerunner any day, the ridgerunner gets to move 9" once and then it better be within 24" of every target its ever going to want to shoot for the rest of the game.
I'd REALLY rather take a skrapjet over the lascannon ridgerunner, since it gets double the stubber shots, the same anti-tank output, the ability to move and shoot, clan traits, and it's a space marine with a chainfist in melee with bonus mortal wounds on the charge.
The KBB really fills a different role. It's tough to compare a stationary gunline vehicle with an anti-tank gun with a vehicle with an anti-light vehicle gun that also has 4d3 flamer shots strapped onto it.
The ridgerunner is also significantly cheaper in points than all of the Ork buggy variants (you've said yourself - 40 pts cheaper than SJD which is 34% less expensive, 30 pts less than the Scrapjet) and has effectively the same (if not better) durability because str 5 and 6 weapons are not only rare but also never fired at vehicles. You always seem to completely ignore durability when comparing units and I'm not sure why.
Forget melee on any of the Ork buggies. If you are in melee you have probably fethed up because you won't shoot next turn. And your shooting profile is significantly better than your melee one.
The ridgerunner is also more flexible in its loadout and please stop pretending that it can't move and fire its weapons. It can and its BS goes up to 5+ if it does, the same as Orks....
The clan traits that are actually used competitively by Ork players are Evil Sunz and Bad Moons. So +movement or RR 1s to hit in shooting are the traits they actually benefit from. The ridge runner gets the deployment shenanigans so you can counter deploy it perfectly or you can use the scout move to deny deep strike. For much less points.
To be fair, deffskullz are a pretty good choice for the shokkjump dragsta. In regards to the ridgerunner & ork buggies in general I'd say that the ridgerunner is easily at least better than some of them (boomdakka snazzwagon and the one that won't be namned) but I'd put it on par with the KBB, Megatrakk & shokkjump without issue.
As AAE alluded to above, durability is a big issue and the SJD is 120 points for something that will melt to anything resembling AT and its short range on the guns means it will be in range to be fired at. So a buggy for 84 points brings a lot more durability per point in virtually any instance. I also think that scout move is going to come into play quite a bit, you can somewhat hide the unit depending on who goes first and use it to deepstrike deny etc. You can also "blip them" right? meaning they should be easy to hide out of LoS from the enemy AT if you don't go first. Ork buggies have no such luxury unless you deepstrike them for 2CP each (although the SJD can hide pretty well I guess)
Isn't the ridgerunner also buffable by the jackal alpha or did I misunderstand that? Because if it is, getting d3 lascannon shots at BS3+ for 84 points ain't bad. Sure that's an added cost of that HQ but they have similar ranges and she can buff more than a singular unit right?
We'll see how it all pans out in the end but isn't the bigger issue that GSC get thunder hammers (under a different name) for 4 points? Why is a guardsman powerfist 8 or an SM 9 (or an Ork 13)?
I agree the big advantage the ridge runner has, is the scout move, if you know your going first move into position with your scout move so you don't have to suffer the penalty to hit on the first turn.
The Jackal Alpha appears to buff all units in 6" (bikes within 12") so in theory yeah you can get the +1 to hit, so now, if you are going first you are hitting on 3's. That seems pretty handy to me.
Add in a flare launcher and combo with the dirt bikers and jackal alpha and you've got a nice little mobile force there.
Plus they are probably the best looking units in the GSC army!
I mean, as someone who very frequently uses the ork buggies, I gotta disagree with that sentiment. The only two buggies the ridgerunner outperforms are the snazzwagon (arguably pays for -1 to hit, burna bombs and the ability to actually move around and fire its weapons) and the squigbuggy...which....gold star for that, lol. A wet fart in a paper bag outperforms the squigbuggy.
The lascannon variant is 40 points less than the shokkjump dragsta, which gets 25% more damage vs vehicles, the ability to move and fire its weapons, and clan traits (which can be +1 to hit, super-salamander hit wound and damage reroll+obsec+6++, or reroll 1s to hit, ridgerunner doesn't get cult traits). I'd take the shokkjump over the lascannon ridgerunner any day, the ridgerunner gets to move 9" once and then it better be within 24" of every target its ever going to want to shoot for the rest of the game.
I'd REALLY rather take a skrapjet over the lascannon ridgerunner, since it gets double the stubber shots, the same anti-tank output, the ability to move and shoot, clan traits, and it's a space marine with a chainfist in melee with bonus mortal wounds on the charge.
The KBB really fills a different role. It's tough to compare a stationary gunline vehicle with an anti-tank gun with a vehicle with an anti-light vehicle gun that also has 4d3 flamer shots strapped onto it.
The ridgerunner is also significantly cheaper in points than all of the Ork buggy variants (you've said yourself - 40 pts cheaper than SJD which is 34% less expensive, 30 pts less than the Scrapjet) and has effectively the same (if not better) durability because str 5 and 6 weapons are not only rare but also never fired at vehicles. You always seem to completely ignore durability when comparing units and I'm not sure why.
Forget melee on any of the Ork buggies. If you are in melee you have probably fethed up because you won't shoot next turn. And your shooting profile is significantly better than your melee one.
The ridgerunner is also more flexible in its loadout and please stop pretending that it can't move and fire its weapons. It can and its BS goes up to 5+ if it does, the same as Orks....
The clan traits that are actually used competitively by Ork players are Evil Sunz and Bad Moons. So +movement or RR 1s to hit in shooting are the traits they actually benefit from. The ridge runner gets the deployment shenanigans so you can counter deploy it perfectly or you can use the scout move to deny deep strike. For much less points.
"Forget melee on any of the buggies" - I'm guessing this is why you don't get value out of your skrapjets. Those things are awesome in melee. Just don't charge something that can survive 3 chainfist hits+1 mortal wound and you won't be in melee on your turn. the damage output in melee of a deathskullz skrapjet against tanks/elites is nearly identical to the damage output in shooting.
"The only competitive clan traits are evil sunz and bad moonz" - yeah, deathskullz never gets talked about. You know, I have been reading that 50-odd page ork tactics thread since it came out, and also following tournament results for orks. Deathskullz are an extremely popular choice. I've never seen a competitive ork list that ran pure evil sunz and included any shooting units, so I am 100% ignoring the possibility that it might just have +1 movement from a competitive standpoint. You'll either have a souped bad moonz detachment or be running pure deathskullz if you have buggies.
"It is more durable for its points" - yes. It also has less offensive output by a significant margin, and lower mobility. The reason I focus on those is because those are the differences between the ork buggies and the ridgerunner. A model with the same durability, and nearly twice as much anti tank firepower, is going to need to cost some amount more. You can quibble over whether its overpaying for mobility/the useless jump ability but going "IT COST MORE BUT IT DIE THA SAME!" is kind of silly.
"If it moves it becomes the same BS as orks!" - and does SIGNIFICANTLY less damage because ork weapons tend to have way more shots. Unless, you know, they're not BS5+, like the shokkjump. If the ridgerunner moves with the lascannon loadout, it is getting .66 lascannon hits and 2 stubber hits, compare to a Deathskullz or Bad Moonz shockjump's average of 1.55 lascannon hits and .38 rokkit hits.
"It's more flexible in loadout" - sure, if you want to have brain damage and divide its firepower in half by running a missile launcher or run it as a terrible version of the boomdakka snazzwagon then you can. Realistically the different loadouts you're going to see are "do I take flares or a spotter for extra range." The missile launcher option is literally "you get a choice between paying 5 points less for less than half the antitank firepower, or it can be a 15-point third heavy stubber" and the mortar gives you a 67-point vehicle with 2 heavy stubbers and a heavy bolter. Just run a chimera for like 10 points more lol.
the_scotsman wrote: "Forget melee on any of the buggies" t value out of your skrapjets. Those things are awesome in melee. Just don't charge something that can survive 3 chainfist hits+1 mortal wound and you won't be in melee on your turn. the damage output in melee of a deathskullz skrapjet against tanks/elites is nearly identical to the damage output in shooting.
God you talk some rubbish sometimes. Everything you'll be in range to charge will be able to survive the melee output of the Scrapjet because, as you know and keep harping on about in relation to the Kelerschmerple, screens are a thing. You aren't going to get that Scrapjet in melee combat against its preferred target in reality and I note that you've picked the one possible configuration in deathskulls to try and emphasise that the melee profile isn't a complete waste of points. You are arguing in bad faith and making sweeping assumptions to suit your argument. Assumptions that you literally contradict when you discuss other units.
"The only competitive clan traits are evil sunz and bad moonz" - yeah, deathskullz never gets talked about. You know, I have been reading that 50-odd page ork tactics thread since it came out, and also following tournament results for orks. Deathskullz are an extremely popular choice. I've never seen a competitive ork list that ran pure evil sunz and included any shooting units, so I am 100% ignoring the possibility that it might just have +1 movement from a competitive standpoint. You'll either have a souped bad moonz detachment or be running pure deathskullz if you have buggies.
You've been nailing your opinion all over the Ork tactics thread too iirc. Aren't you the very same Scotsman that told me I was insane for thinking the Snazzwagon is better than the Squig Buggy? That it might rival the KBB? Regardless I've never seen a competitive Deathskulls list that ran buggies. I don't think I've seen a competitive list of any type take Ork Buggies. Please share the details, I'd be interested to see how it performed too, if you have that info?
From what I've seen of competitive Orks (following results very closely, listening to podcasts etc) Evil Sunz are by far the most popular clan, followed by Bad Moonz. You're ignoring the ES clan trait because it doesn't suit your rhetoric. Bad faith.
"It is more durable for its points" - yes. It also has less offensive output by a significant margin, and lower mobility. The reason I focus on those is because those are the differences between the ork buggies and the ridgerunner. A model with the same durability, and nearly twice as much anti tank firepower, is going to need to cost some amount more. You can quibble over whether its overpaying for mobility/the useless jump ability but going "IT COST MORE BUT IT DIE THA SAME!" is kind of silly.
Define 'significant margin'. Where did you get twice ad much anti tank firepower from? You said 25% more for the SJD against preferred targets in your own example. When it is more durable and 35% cheaper? Looks like a win to me overall. The mobility is the same isn't it? Don't they both move 14"? You seem to be overegging the benefits of the Ork buggies for some reason. The other, significant difference is cost. There is a value all in itself in cheap FA slot fillers. Please don't fall into the idiot trap of straemanning. I can manage a conversation without caps thanks.
"If it moves it becomes the same BS as orks!" - and does SIGNIFICANTLY less damage because ork weapons tend to have way more shots. Unless, you know, they're not BS5+, like the shokkjump. If the ridgerunner moves with the lascannon loadout, it is getting .66 lascannon hits and 2 stubber hits, compare to a Deathskullz or Bad Moonz shockjump's average of 1.55 lascannon hits and .38 rokkit hits.
Ah comparing the least favourable situation of one unit (it moves) against the most favourable of another (Deathskulls/Bad Moonz). Bad faith. Again. Why aren't you assuming the SJD has jumped/advanced in any of these comparisons? Why are you claiming a unit can't move when it evidently can? When you have units as cheap and durable as the RR you can send it to grab objectives in a pinch. You make out like the thing is stuck to the table.
"It's more flexible in loadout" - sure, if you want to have brain damage and divide its firepower in half by running a missile launcher or run it as a terrible version of the boomdakka snazzwagon then you can. Realistically the different loadouts you're going to see are "do I take flares or a spotter for extra range." The missile launcher option is literally "you get a choice between paying 5 points less for less than half the antitank firepower, or it can be a 15-point third heavy stubber" and the mortar gives you a 67-point vehicle with 2 heavy stubbers and a heavy bolter. Just run a chimera for like 10 points more lol.
It's still flexibility which is a strength. If you need to drop a few points you have the option. None of the Ork buggies do. How much I'd love to drop the Rokkit from the SJD but alas, tis but a dream.
We'll see how it all pans out in the end but isn't the bigger issue that GSC get thunder hammers (under a different name) for 4 points? Why is a guardsman powerfist 8 or an SM 9 (or an Ork 13)?
Which weapon are you talking about? If it's the Power hammer, I could have sworn it doubled an Abberants cost....or did they lose nearly all of their cost?
The heavy mortar might not be much good on a Ridgerunner, but I definitely want to see how well they would work for a Griffon conversion. I've been wanting to add a battery of Griffons to my Steel Legion army for years! Will keep my eye out for a size comparison once the model is released.
EnTyme wrote: Wow. The last time I saw an Englishman and a Scotsman have a debate this uncivilized, Mel Gibson painted his face blue.
Personally, I think a heavy mortar and a survey scanner (or whatever it's called) might be the best use of a Ridgerunner if you're not using Rusted Claw. Park it behind a building and use it as artillery support. With the 3 detachment limit in match play, you're not always going to be able to bring Brood Brothers artillery. Just a thought.
Lorek wrote: Watch the tone, An Actual Englishman. Edging towards a Rule #1 violation.
And yet stating I have brain damage is entirely polite? Please pm me if you have an issue with my posts rather than call me out in the middle of a thread.
Lorek wrote: Watch the tone, An Actual Englishman. Edging towards a Rule #1 violation.
And yet stating I have brain damage is entirely polite? Please pm me if you have an issue with my posts rather than call me out in the middle of a thread.
the_scotsman said "If you want to have brain damage". Didn't call you brain damaged. Not entirely polite, but you were both bickering a bit before you escalated.
But I WILL call you out for your behavior. Sometimes your value is as an example to others.
I'm sure it will be one of the pricier new SC sets. However, even at $100 USD (and $95 looks to be the most expensive SC currently for 40k) you get one of the infantry units and the character for free, comparing MSRP for everything involved.
Meh. It's been clear for a while that they prefer using English plurals rather than faffing about pretending they care about Latin/Greek plurals. Hence, codexes
This isn't that shocking.
(related, see also octopuses/octopi and hippopotamuses/hippopotami, the latter forms being incorrect)
But now I want to find an old 'Persian' record ranting about how the Greeks and Romans were doing it wrong when they acquired the word.
----
I'm actually more annoyed it's not technically legal to give a neophyte leader a shotgun. He either has to keep his autogun or swap over to pistol/melee.
Finally got a copy, pleased to see that a Baneblade can be taken, and effectively no penalty for doing so since the superheavy detachment doesn't come with any command benefits anyway.
Seems very clear in context that AM are allowed orders, just not regiment-specific ones.
A single Patriarch and Magus per GSC detachment is no big deal as that rule was there in 7th.
Neophyte vs Brood Brothers seems to depend on whether you want them to ever move. To camp at the back seems to default to BBs.
To clarify, they've split the old Neophyte entry into what the two squads can build, rather than the previous version where they were both represented by a single entry, correct?
spiralingcadaver wrote: To clarify, they've split the old Neophyte entry into what the two squads can build, rather than the previous version where they were both represented by a single entry, correct?
Kiiiind of.
They removed the options that appeared only on the guard sprue from Neophyte squads.
They added a new unit called "Brood Brother infantry squad" that is effectively a Guard infantry squad but with two differences: A 20-man unit cap, and the Vox Caster is replaced with a "Cult Vox Caster" which gives a morale reroll.
Brood Brothers do not have the <cult> keyword, so they don't get to choose cult benefits, but do not remove those benefits from your detachment. They do get Cult Ambush, and Unquestioning Loyalty.
As before, Leman Russes are present, but are limited only to the options in the Battle Tank kit if you take them in a GSC detachment (but they do gain Cult Ambush).
cult sentinels are unchnged from the index.
Cult HWTs have been added as a heavy support choice, identical to guard HWTs except for a slight points hike to the mortar I believe.
Cult Chimeras can now only hold Brood Brothers infantry. Brood brothers HWTs count as two. Hilariously, Brood Brothers Ogryns are not addressed - we're gonna get to that.
So here's where it gets squirrely.
You can take Allied Guard Detachments as before. You replace all instances of the <regiment> keyword with Brood Brothers and if you don't have a <Reigment> keyword, you ADD the Brood Brothers keyword.
That means all Auxilia, Militarum Tempestus, Expecto Prefectronus, and Astro Telepatico units gain Brood Brothers.
Sentences within the rules like
"this model may issue orders to 2 Brood Brothers infantry units per turn"
and
"This model may transport 10 Brood Brothers infanry models"
become a lot more hilarious when you can start doing things like, say, 10 bullgryns, a platoon commander and a priest jammed into a cult chimera that gets blip deployment.
This is why a lot of people are thinking this rule is ripe for a FAQ-ing.
Oh, that's really surprising, I assumed you'd only be able to use things that had the <regiment> option, since that would eliminate special characters and weird stuff like auxilia in one fell swoop. That's a really awkward way of doing it, since it opens up interactions that didn't used to be available...
Also, the cult chimera not giving access to other troops is just awkward, like, Primaris transports levels of irritating limitations :/
spiralingcadaver wrote: Oh, that's really surprising, I assumed you'd only be able to use things that had the <regiment> option, since that would eliminate special characters and weird stuff like auxilia in one fell swoop. That's a really awkward way of doing it, since it opens up interactions that didn't used to be available...
Also, the cult chimera not giving access to other troops is just awkward, like, Primaris transports levels of irritating limitations :/
Thanks for the details.
The Chimera thing makes perfect sense--Ogryn aren't in the book. They're in Guard.
The ability to take Cult Ogryns will probably get errata'd out, but in terms of background, abhumans are still genetically human so there's no reason a Genestealer Cult couldn't infect Ogryns, Ratlings, Squats, etc.
If anything, they may just FAQ that auxillary don't get the BB keyword, but don't break the detachment.
Or they will FAQ/add another Keyword like Brood auxillary or some such that will need to be FAQd again, and then thrice to fix what they broke trying to fix the first issue.
That GSC start collecting box is a pretty decent value for what's included.
If they're going to be like that going forward (as in more units and goodies included) I guess I can stomach the price as long as we're getting a decent savings on top of things.
Hmm... I don't think there's a single regular Marine miniature in any picture throughout the whole book.
Also I instantly lost interest when I realised that Brood Brothers were limited to exactly what's on the Cadian sprue - GLs or Flamers. Honestly... *shakes head*
BrookM wrote: I quite like that allied Guard only generate half the amount of CP's as opposed to proper GSC formations.
If only that applied to the Loyal 32 everywhere.
Or if only the FOC actually meant something...
Or if only Command Points weren't a thing at all...
Hmm... I don't think there's a single regular Marine miniature in any picture throughout the whole book.
Also I instantly lost interest when I realised that Brood Brothers were limited to exactly what's on the Cadian sprue - GLs or Flamers. Honestly... *shakes head*
BrookM wrote: I quite like that allied Guard only generate half the amount of CP's as opposed to proper GSC formations.
If only that applied to the Loyal 32 everywhere.
Or if only the FOC actually meant something...
Or if only Command Points weren't a thing at all...
You don't need either. You have the greatest weapon in the game, the Las gun with deeps trike and orders.
You can literally do for free what general discussion had a 28 - page when acolytes could do it for 2cp on one unit. Frfsrf brood bros actually do 1/8 more than the acolyte handflamer bomb.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it does say a lot about the primaris range that near the back of the book there's a Shot of some gsc fighting some rivers and they used 3 identical reiver miniatures for it.
Hmm... I don't think there's a single regular Marine miniature in any picture throughout the whole book.
Also I instantly lost interest when I realised that Brood Brothers were limited to exactly what's on the Cadian sprue - GLs or Flamers. Honestly... *shakes head*
Oh, come on, HBMC, we all know what you're really mad about: The sheer number of motorcycle riding rough riders about to hit table tops.
I'm combining Vics RR arms with these and some anvil heads. Not happy with the limited pose options, but hells bells, it's time to ride.
*in distance, DoomRider can be heard screaming 'COCAAAAIIIIN"*
No I really am annoyed that GW continues to let the miniatures curtail their rules, even (or especially) when it isn't necessary. Guard Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist. The fact that they're not in that specific kit should not stop Brood Brother squads from getting them.
This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity.
"But they're just PDF! They might not have access to complex weapons like Melta..." no, stop, don't even try fluff justifications for this. We know that they don't get Plasma Guns, Meltaguns or anything else because of this, even though this, this and this all exist.
That said, thanks for the idea about the Vic arms. Hadn't considered that.
Yeah, I find it pretty absurd that they discourage really easy weapon swaps (i.e. not conversions, not drawing from other lines, and not drawing from anything esoteric or old).
Honestly, I thought that the GSC conversion pack was designed to give the line a lot more legs without needing other kits, since it could fit with such a wide variety of IG etc. with little work- it was surprising that they really seem to be intended just to build that one Cadian variant squad.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No I really am annoyed that GW continues to let the miniatures curtail their rules, even (or especially) when it isn't necessary. Guard Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist. The fact that they're not in that specific kit should not stop Brood Brother squads from getting them.
This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity.
"But they're just PDF! They might not have access to complex weapons like Melta..." no, stop, don't even try fluff justifications for this. We know that they don't get Plasma Guns, Meltaguns or anything else because of this, even though this, this and this all exist.
That said, thanks for the idea about the Vic arms. Hadn't considered that.
Brood brother squads can take any IG special weapons though. It's done in exactly the same way as they'd take a Company Commander, Basilisk, Shadowsword, or basically any other guard-specific options.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No I really am annoyed that GW continues to let the miniatures curtail their rules, even (or especially) when it isn't necessary. Guard Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist. The fact that they're not in that specific kit should not stop Brood Brother squads from getting them.
This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity.
"But they're just PDF! They might not have access to complex weapons like Melta..." no, stop, don't even try fluff justifications for this. We know that they don't get Plasma Guns, Meltaguns or anything else because of this, even though this, this and this all exist.
That said, thanks for the idea about the Vic arms. Hadn't considered that.
Maybe, they kinda, y'know, wanted to create more of a distinction between armies... . Wouldnt it be great to see GSC plasma spam alongside all those stealers *rolls eyes*
So yeah, its not a bad thing. There is also a fluff justification (maybe less so with the bladed cog) in that how would they be able to maintain all of the plasma, let alone make the ammo? Bullets, explosives, grenades and flame weapons are a lot easier to produce. Do we really need to make GSC Guard ++?
No I really am annoyed that GW continues to let the miniatures curtail their rules, even (or especially) when it isn't necessary. Guard Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist. The fact that they're not in that specific kit should not stop Brood Brother squads from getting them.
This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity.
"But they're just PDF! They might not have access to complex weapons like Melta..." no, stop, don't even try fluff justifications for this. We know that they don't get Plasma Guns, Meltaguns or anything else because of this, even though this, this and this all exist.
That said, thanks for the idea about the Vic arms. Hadn't considered that.
Maybe, they kinda, y'know, wanted to create more of a distinction between armies... . Wouldnt it be great to see GSC plasma spam alongside all those stealers *rolls eyes*
So yeah, its not a bad thing. There is also a fluff justification (maybe less so with the bladed cog) in that how would they be able to maintain all of the plasma, let alone make the ammo? Bullets, explosives, grenades and flame weapons are a lot easier to produce. Do we really need to make GSC Guard ++?
I agree (with the sentiment if not necessarily the sarcasm). It would be a bad thing for the brood brothers datasheet to be a copypaste of guardsmen. But it is also unfortunate that the distinction between them is limited to what's in the box. There's a definite trend of this throughout Games-Workshop releases as of late, and although I myself can barely kitbash a decent sandwich, I definitely appreciate looking at other peoples' fine work.
Don't be disingenuous. You know - you know - that they only get those two options in the actual Codex because that's all that's on the sprue.
I don't see what the index has to do with this, melta & plasma guns weren't an option in there either. You know[ that it's still possible to use those weapons in a GSC army, and you're the one being disingenuous by intentionally posting the wrong unit entry.
Whining about not having plasma guns in the GSC codex is no different to whining that they didn't include a page for Command Squads or Baneblades. They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.
GW had to draw a line between the two armies somewhere. Having the GSC codex include just the GSC-branded IG kits seems like a pretty sensible place.
Don't be disingenuous. You know - you know - that they only get those two options in the actual Codex because that's all that's on the sprue.
I don't see what the index has to do with this, melta & plasma guns weren't an option in there either. You knowthat it's still possible to use those weapons in a GSC army, and you're the one being disingenuous by intentionally posting the wrong unit entry.
Whining about not having plasma guns in the GSC codex is no different to whining that they didn't include a page for Command Squads or Baneblades. They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.
GW had to draw a line between the two armies somewhere. Having the GSC codex include just the GSC-branded IG kits seems like a pretty sensible place.
You've said it yourself, they are two separate armies. GSC get as much access to guard equipment as space marines do, after all. Allying in (with penalties to CP) is not the same thing as being in your codex in my opinion. HBMC's point is valid, the only reason they aren't an option for Brood Brothers is that they aren't on the sprue.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
No I really am annoyed that GW continues to let the miniatures curtail their rules, even (or especially) when it isn't necessary. Guard Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist. The fact that they're not in that specific kit should not stop Brood Brother squads from getting them.
This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity.
"But they're just PDF! They might not have access to complex weapons like Melta..." no, stop, don't even try fluff justifications for this. We know that they don't get Plasma Guns, Meltaguns or anything else because of this, even though this, this and this all exist.
That said, thanks for the idea about the Vic arms. Hadn't considered that.
Maybe, they kinda, y'know, wanted to create more of a distinction between armies... . Wouldnt it be great to see GSC plasma spam alongside all those stealers *rolls eyes*
So yeah, its not a bad thing. There is also a fluff justification (maybe less so with the bladed cog) in that how would they be able to maintain all of the plasma, let alone make the ammo? Bullets, explosives, grenades and flame weapons are a lot easier to produce. Do we really need to make GSC Guard ++?
I agree (with the sentiment if not necessarily the sarcasm). It would be a bad thing for the brood brothers datasheet to be a copypaste of guardsmen. But it is also unfortunate that the distinction between them is limited to what's in the box. There's a definite trend of this throughout Games-Workshop releases as of late, and although I myself can barely kitbash a decent sandwich, I definitely appreciate looking at other peoples' fine work.
Err, why would it be a bad thing for Brood Brothers, who are PDF/Guardsmen under the control of the Cult, to be a copypaste of Guardsmen, ie the thing they are?
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
well on the otherhand you now lack access to HWT's even tough the Genestealer squad of INf has one in the box
well on the otherhand you now lack access to HWT's even tough the Genestealer squad of INf has one in the box
GW.
Why work propperly
You might want to read the entry a bit closer, since it's posted in this thread. The part where it says "Up to two Brood Brothers may form a single Brood Brothers Weapons Team; this team must take one item from the Heavy Weapons list." I don't have the Codex to hand, but I'd be fairly sure that the heavy weapons list includes....heavy weapons.
An awkward way of handling things, but they do have access to HWTs.
well on the otherhand you now lack access to HWT's even tough the Genestealer squad of INf has one in the box
GW.
Why work propperly
You might want to read the entry a bit closer, since it's posted in this thread. The part where it says "Up to two Brood Brothers may form a single Brood Brothers Weapons Team; this team must take one item from the Heavy Weapons list." I don't have the Codex to hand, but I'd be fairly sure that the heavy weapons list includes....heavy weapons.
An awkward way of handling things, but they do have access to HWTs.
No i don't need too, THE WARGEAR OPTION IS MISSING, unlike the Infantry squad and any other army that can form HWT's need the correct wargear option. Basically you can't buy something from the HW list, which you must in order to form a HWT.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.
well on the otherhand you now lack access to HWT's even tough the Genestealer squad of INf has one in the box
GW.
Why work propperly
You might want to read the entry a bit closer, since it's posted in this thread. The part where it says "Up to two Brood Brothers may form a single Brood Brothers Weapons Team; this team must take one item from the Heavy Weapons list." I don't have the Codex to hand, but I'd be fairly sure that the heavy weapons list includes....heavy weapons.
An awkward way of handling things, but they do have access to HWTs.
No i don't need too, THE WARGEAR OPTION IS MISSING, unlike the Infantry squad and any other army that can form HWT's need the correct wargear option. Basically you can't buy something from the HW list, which you must in order to form a HWT.
Uh...no.
No, it definitely says right here they take an item from the heavy weapon list.
and the heavy weapon list definitely has all the normal heavy weapons.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.
You have a hard time getting a company commander who has nothing to do turn 1 other than double advance himself into position?
put it this way: before release, we had a 25-page thread crying about how gsc could deep strike 20 acolytes, use a 2CP stratagem, and hit an enemy screen with 20d6 S3 AP- hits (70 on average).
40 guardsmen FRFSRF'ing for 0CP at 12" put out 80 S3 AP- hits and cost exactly the same plus 30pts for the commander.
Not Online!!! wrote: You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.
Ergo you can't form a HWT.
Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.
Again, not sure what you're getting at.
Page 86:
"Up to two Brood Brothers may form a single Brood Brothers Weapons Team; this team must take one item from the Heavy Weapons list."
Page 79:
"Many of the units you will find on the following pages reference one or more of the following wargear lists (e.g. Special Weapons). When this is the case, the unit may take any item from the appropriate list below."
Ergo:
2 BBs may make a HWT, but they must take a heavy weapon, which comes form the heavy weapon list, which the entry gives them explicit access to.
Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.
Comparison is not required nor does something written for one entry apply to an entry in an entirely different book unless that book is being used directly, which as H.B.M.C. noted it is not or else you'd have more special weapons options. The entry in question states you must take a weapon from the other list if you choose to form a HWT. The list of weapons exists, ergo Brood Brother HWTs are a valid option.
Not Online!!! wrote: Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.
You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.
Ergo you can't form a HWT.
Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.
I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GWFAQ.
So, you're saying because the sentence that says "blablabla may form a heavy weapons team and must take an item from the heavy weapons list" is not in the section of the datasheet that says "Wargear Options" and instead is up at the top, they can't take the weapon?
That's...utterly asinine.
So, looking at my Veteran squad in the guard codex, it says "each veteran is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" up at the top.
Because that's not in the wargear section, does that mean I can't take lasguns and frag grenades on my veterans?
xttz wrote: They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.
Imma need you to show me where, in the Codex, it says that my Brood Brother squads can take Meltaguns and Plasma Guns.
Can you take, as part of a legal Genestealer Cult-based matched play army, one or more kinds of unit with the BROOD BROTHERS keyword and any of the special weapons options listed below?
xttz wrote: They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.
Imma need you to show me where, in the Codex, it says that my Brood Brother squads can take Meltaguns and Plasma Guns.
Can you take, as part of a legal Genestealer Cult-based matched play army, one or more kinds of unit with the BROOD BROTHERS keyword and any of the special weapons options listed below?
god I am SO MAD that my thousand sons army can only have Horrors, Flamers, and Screamers in it?!?!?! WTFGW why can't my Thousand Sons have Lords of Change, Blue Scribes, and Heralds of Tzeentch, it's so unfluffy they're tzeentch daemons and tzeentch marines. It can't be that they gave them full access to each other but you have to purchase the daemon codex to get the full list, I WOULDNT HAVE SOMETHING TO BE MAD ABOUT!
What I can do is take exactly (and only) what's on the sprue - Flamers and Grenade Launchers - exactly as written in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.
If you want to point to a different book and say "But they can there!" that doesn't even remotely address my core argument, being that Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.
Not Online!!! wrote: Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.
You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT. There is none if you look at your screenshot.
Ergo you can't form a HWT.
Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.
I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GWFAQ.
So, you're saying because the sentence that says "blablabla may form a heavy weapons team and must take an item from the heavy weapons list" is not in the section of the datasheet that says "Wargear Options" and instead is up at the top, they can't take the weapon?
That's...utterly asinine.
So, looking at my Veteran squad in the guard codex, it says "each veteran is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" up at the top.
Because that's not in the wargear section, does that mean I can't take lasguns and frag grenades on my veterans?
Don't blame me, i am just the messanger that states that this SHOULD be in the wargear options part of the profile. LIKE ALL OTHER HWT/ HW upgrades and options are.
Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.
Comparison is not required nor does something written for one entry apply to an entry in an entirely different book unless that book is being used directly, which as H.B.M.C. noted it is not or else you'd have more special weapons options. The entry in question states you must take a weapon from the other list if you choose to form a HWT. The list of weapons exists, ergo Brood Brother HWTs are a valid option.
That is the description of the general contents, NOT what options a unit has. So yes the comparison is valid, or am i allowed to suddendly give Hades Autocannons to defilers?
I don't think where it is or isn't matters. The rules say they have access to the Wargear list, the Wargear list defines them as individual wargear lists that units may be granted access to via their unit entries, therefore the BB unit entry grants access to the HW list because it says it does.
And your argument is falling apart. It's a simple two-step process:
Step 1: BB unit entry - Can take from the HW list. Step 2: Wargear list - Unit entries will grant access to one or more of these wargear lists (the plural is important) allowing those units to select from them. Therefore: BB HWTs can take HWs.
What I can do is take exactly (and only) what's on the sprue - Flamers and Grenade Launchers - exactly as written in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.
If you want to point to a different book and say "But they can there!" that doesn't even remotely address my core argument, being that Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.
It is a thing in 8th edition that some armies that frequently have allies get a little bit of the allied faction printed into their codex for convenience. AM gets techpriests, ministorum priests, crusaders. Death Guard and Thousand Sons have daemons printed in. They have to pick some spot to draw the line and stop printing all the entries from the ally-able codex into the new codex book.
Personally, I'm fine with them putting the line somewhere, especially when I get bonuses that I didnt ask for - a higher squadcap, cult ambush, and the ability to take BBs to fill slots in GSC detachments. All that is above and beyond what I'd expect, and what I get in most factions. Honestly, it might be an indicator that you're a little bit spoilt in that regard because the only other book that has those "convenient ally printings" with those kinds of bonuses is the Guard codex, where they can use them to fill slots. I can't take horrors as a troop choice in my Thousand Sons army, even though I'd love to and it'd make constructing my armies far easier.
I also use necromunda models for my brood brother units. I don't get bent out of shape that I don't have needlers, harpoon guns and hand flamers in the brood brother list even though those are on the models I'll be using for them.
You've got to draw the line somewhere as to what guard stuff to print in the GSC book. "what's in the box" is what I would consider..the obvious default?
You have a hard time getting a company commander who has nothing to do turn 1 other than double advance himself into position?
put it this way: before release, we had a 25-page thread crying about how gsc could deep strike 20 acolytes, use a 2CP stratagem, and hit an enemy screen with 20d6 S3 AP- hits (70 on average).
40 guardsmen FRFSRF'ing for 0CP at 12" put out 80 S3 AP- hits and cost exactly the same plus 30pts for the commander.
This is rather a discussion for the tactics thread.
Anyway I think that running a company commander in position for deep striking guardsmen might be pretty dangerous for him. He will outpace a part of your army and also restricts you a lot in where your guardsmen can drop down.
So there are certainly some risks and downsides to this approach.
*checks Genestealer Cult Codex*
Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.
You don't know that. Sure it could be part of the reason, another could be that it's an entirely different unit entry to the IG version. It has double the model cap, different morale-related rules, a powerful deployment rule and is affected by various interactions within the GSC codex. GW could well have thought it overkill to give them extra wargear options too.
Yet another factor could be that GW don't want to be maintaining unnecessary wargear options & future CA points updates in armies that already have a method to access those choices.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.
Your original argument was "This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity. ". It meandered into some weird technicality of "but it's not in this specific book!!!!" when pointed out that it's really a non-issue in this case.
Yet GW provide the rules to use the vast majority of another codex as part of a single cohesive army, and that's anti-creativity? No.
H.B.M.C., a GSC army can take the AM infantry squad as listed in the AM codex as part of a Brood Brothers detachment. They can take any and all options available on that warscroll in a Brood Brothers detachment. They can take the Brood Brothers warscroll in the GSC codex as part of a GSC detachment without breaking the allegiance. Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.
Not Online!!! wrote: Basically you can't buy something from the HW list, which you must in order to form a HWT.
I'm not seeing what you're getting at.
You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.
Ergo you can't form a HWT.
Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.
I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GWFAQ.
Not only can you have 1 Heavy Weapons team, you can have 3. And to these other guys- You folks are not reading the whole series of units that are available.
The answer is yes, from options available on the list. The snipers rifles go to the bikers, the flamer and grenade launchers go to the BB Infantry Squads, and the Heavy rock weapons to the Acolytes and Neophytes.
And just so we are clear- THIS is an army that can have Genestealers as troops.... If you haven't seen them in action, trust me, you don't need to nit pick a plasma gun when you are fielding living weapons that wipe out entire units, and trash vehicles with the claws options.... They didn't drop in these blip markers for nothing as you live in Ambush, as well... All in all, This list is as Formidable as anything out so far.
Acolytes get hand to hand and the claws options. their "heavy Weapon is a heavy rock -drill, saw, or cutter. or a demo charge...
Neophytes, are like terrorists, or rebels. they get the mining equipment that they use as weapons, demo charges, rock cutters, etc... They don't get heavy weapons like the IG use, they get heavy mining weapons. (two different types of heavy weapons options)
the Brood Brother (BB) infantry Squad is like a Planetary defense force squad, where they have IG equipment/ uniformed. troops.
BB Infantry Squad can have 1 Heavy Weapon team of 2 guys. BB Heavy Weapon Squad can have up to 3 heavy weapon teams- 3 heavy weapons total
The no model = no rule thing has been around for so long that denying it is simply naive.
xttz wrote: Your original argument was "This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity. ". It meandered into some weird technicality of "but it's not in this specific book!!!!" when pointed out that it's really a non-issue in this case.
It's not a "weird technicality". It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.
xttz wrote: Yet GW provide the rules to use the vast majority of another codex as part of a single cohesive army, and that's anti-creativity? No.
Again, you are being naive. No model = no rule is a thing, has been for quite some time, and denying it just comes across as blindly stupid.
EnTyme wrote: H.B.M.C., a GSC army can take the AM infantry squad as listed in the AM codex as part of a Brood Brothers detachment.
So what? All I've been talking about is the Genestealer Cult codex limiting weapon options based upon the specific plastic sprue in the box, rather than the weapons that have been available for years and years.
EnTyme wrote: Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.
Then you haven't been paying attention, watching as options vanish from units because the kits don't have the specific part to allow it, even when it was allowed in the past (off the top of my head... Rokkits on Trukks, or Chaos Lords in a Death Guard army not getting the same special rules as actual Death Guard because GW don't make a specific "Death Guard Chaos Lord" kit). This is no different, and just another extension of no model = no rule.
Not Online!!! wrote: Basically you can't buy something from the HW list, which you must in order to form a HWT.
I'm not seeing what you're getting at.
You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.
Ergo you can't form a HWT.
Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.
I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GWFAQ.
Not only can you have 1 Heavy Weapons team, you can have 3. And to these other guys- You folks are not reading the whole series of units that are available.
The answer is yes, from options available on the list. The snipers rifles go to the bikers, the flamer and grenade launchers go to the BB Infantry Squads, and the Heavy rock weapons to the Acolytes and Neophytes.
And just so we are clear- THIS is an army that can have Genestealers as troops.... If you haven't seen them in action, trust me, you don't need to nit pick a plasma gun when you are fielding living weapons that wipe out entire units, and trash vehicles with the claws options.... They didn't drop in these blip markers for nothing as you live in Ambush, as well... All in all, This list is as Formidable as anything out so far.
Acolytes get hand to hand and the claws options. their "heavy Weapon is a heavy rock -drill, saw, or cutter. or a demo charge...
Neophytes, are like terrorists, or rebels. they get the mining equipment that they use as weapons, demo charges, rock cutters, etc... They don't get heavy weapons like the IG use, they get heavy mining weapons. (two different types of heavy weapons options)
the Brood Brother (BB) infantry Squad is like a Planetary defense force squad, where they have IG equipment/ uniformed. troops.
BB Infantry Squad can have 1 Heavy Weapon team of 2 guys. BB Heavy Weapon Squad can have up to 3 heavy weapon teams- 3 heavy weapons total
Be happy with your options... this army is sick.
I think you are all missing HBMCs point.
The buisness practice of limiting rules to individual parts on an individual kit does stifle creativity from a modeling perspective. It also means that codex will loose access to units or options based on how kits were designed when that was not the business practice. For example Rough riders. The rough riders always had more codex options than the kits were sold with. You had to kit bash to upgrade your squad. The whole citadel catalog was parted out by individual pieces so you could order the individual parts you wanted for kit bashing. It was really obvious that rough riders would get cut not just because they had lackluster rules, but because the kit was functionally outdated.
If you try to explain these limitations via PDF fluff you haven't been reading your regimental standard soldier. Report to your company's commissar for remedial mental fitness training.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.
EnTyme wrote: Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.
Then you haven't been paying attention, watching as options vanish from units because the kits don't have the specific part to allow it, even when it was allowed in the past (off the top of my head... Rokkits on Trukks, or Chaos Lords in a Death Guard army not getting the same special rules as actual Death Guard because GW don't make a specific "Death Guard Chaos Lord" kit). This is no different, and just another extension of no model = no rule.
All I'm seeing is you throwing a five-alarm tantrum over a restriction that isn't there.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.
Taking IG units alongside GSC isn't the same as thing as allying them with say Space Marines or AdMech. The printed rules in the GSC codex specifically modifies the behaviour of another faction; and in quite significant ways in some cases. It takes some weird ass bizzaro logic to claim that the new Brood Brothers rule "hardly factors" into the GSC codex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The no model = no rule thing has been around for so long that denying it is simply naive.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again, you are being naive. No model = no rule is a thing, has been for quite some time, and denying it just comes across as blindly stupid.
Feel free to quote the post where I said no model = no rule does not exist in 40k. I haven't once offered an opinion on that wider topic. Mainly because we're in the GSC rumour thread and debating what wargear options GW publish for Orks or Death Guard isn't too relevant.
All I've talked about is this specific case of an option still being available to use, despite your denials of reality and willingness to throw insults at me over a strawman argument you have concocted in your own head.
the_scotsman wrote: Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.
Classic GW,
Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.
I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like
Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders
or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.
Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.
Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.
20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.
That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.
It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.
I'm really curious about the effect of taking 30 Brood Brothers Conscripts that you can put next to a Patriarch, ignore morale, and make Unquestioning Loyalty saves with.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.
Taking IG units alongside GSC isn't the same as thing as allying them with say Space Marines or AdMech. The printed rules in the GSC codex specifically modifies the behaviour of another faction; and in quite significant ways in some cases. It takes some weird ass bizzaro logic to claim that the new Brood Brothers rule "hardly factors" into the GSC codex.
Genuinely think you're reading too much into the BB rule here. It's original intent was simply to allow GSC to ally with another army with which it shared zero faction keywords. The new rule maintains that, but adds further restrictions to prevent CP abuse and regiment bonuses (with Unquestioning loyalty thrown in to compensate). It seems odd to me to say that GSC and IG should be considered all one army simply because of the above. They are no closer entwined than SM and IG are, and it is not unreasonable to look at the GSC codex in isolation. Not everyone wants to ally in from the most powerful codex simply because they can.
From my inspection, every unit in the GSC codex only has the options available to it that are on the sprue. This has personally impacted me as my BB infantry squad with a bolt pistol sarge is no longer legal as it's now a separate unit with narrower options.
mould2k wrote: They are no closer entwined than SM and IG are
That's demonstrably untrue. Not only does this codex effectively introduce a new sub-faction trait for another book - overwriting keywords to suit - there are intentional two-way interactions between the factions. My post above about IG units being able to ignore morale and while shielding GSC characters is the perfect example.
Ynnari aside (whose entire schtick is using other factions' stuff), this is the closest GW have come in 8E to meshing two factions together into a single cohesive army.
I can see how the bolt pistol thing can be annoying. Have you emailed the GWFAQ team about it? That's something I could see them errata'ing back in. There's already several examples in 8th of them relaxing unit restrictions like this.
Yup my normally reliable supplier has got none of the stock his rep promised him for any of the GSC release, the rep keeps saying soon, soon
but as yet soon has not arrived despite most of it apparently being in stock on the GWUK site
I suspect it less underestimating demand as it is simply being unable to supply it without dramatically slowing their release schedule down which they don't seem to want to do
Part of that might be the polar vortex slowing down deliveries etc. My FLGS here in Oregon didn’t get the second wave of GSC stuff until a couple of days ago, because they were stuck in the Midwest due to weather...
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's possible that the Fragdrill got misconstrued as a "superheavy digging machine".
Wouldn't be overly surprised, but I'm guessing mentions of a Macrorig in the old codex help fuel that one given it appeared in the same context as the lunar buggies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's possible that the Fragdrill got misconstrued as a "superheavy digging machine".
Entirely, though didn't the same source say that several factions were getting superheavies at the same time? That suggests it's not mistaken for the fragdrill.
It's probably not worth worrying about for now though.
You know what surprised me.
Just got the book, and the painted examples of different cults is few and far between, even the art versions of a few there aren’t many.
Most of the other factions get quite a few painted examples in the book, I was hoping for some inspiration via that section. Been holding off starting these guys since Kill Team because of it..
Danny76 wrote: You know what surprised me.
Just got the book, and the painted examples of different cults is few and far between, even the art versions of a few there aren’t many.
Most of the other factions get quite a few painted examples in the book, I was hoping for some inspiration via that section. Been holding off starting these guys since Kill Team because of it..
Well there is sure kinda few varieties in color although they did flesh them out. I had even a small giggle when I read about the Behemoid cult.
My paint scheme is sort of based on hazmat suits which when done right is good but it can be troublesome.
Top kek so GSC's version of Agents of Vect got changed to 1/game (good) but the DE version remains 4 CP and multiple uses. Now hopefully that will change in the spring FAQ but it brings up an issue with GW's refusal to have common rules for things that are virtually the same. Why is one 1/game and one just got its CP changed?
This is like exactly the problem Warmahordes Mk1 had and why they consolidated the abilities in Mk2. When you have 5 special rules that are the same, and 1 has slightly different wording than the other 4, you're just adding unnecessary (IMHO) bloat.
Wayniac wrote: Top kek so GSC's version of Agents of Vect got changed to 1/game (good) but the DE version remains 4 CP and multiple uses. Now hopefully that will change in the spring FAQ but it brings up an issue with GW's refusal to have common rules for things that are virtually the same. Why is one 1/game and one just got its CP changed?
This is like exactly the problem Warmahordes Mk1 had and why they consolidated the abilities in Mk2. When you have 5 special rules that are the same, and 1 has slightly different wording than the other 4, you're just adding unnecessary (IMHO) bloat.
It's not like people are spending 8 CP on Vect anyway.
Daedalus81 wrote: Whelp, Mining Lasers at 12 points and D6 damage seem pretty solid when under Rusted Claw.
Makes Neophytes much more attractive as a troops choice. I quite like that. Didn't mind Acolytes becoming the "go-to", but I like Neophytes better for some reason.
Daedalus81 wrote: Whelp, Mining Lasers at 12 points and D6 damage seem pretty solid when under Rusted Claw.
Makes Neophytes much more attractive as a troops choice. I quite like that. Didn't mind Acolytes becoming the "go-to", but I like Neophytes better for some reason.
Agreed. Infantry Squads envy their flexibility. The jackal and iconward become the "commanders".
So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
Wayniac wrote: So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.
Mr_Rose wrote: What is this mysterious super-tactic you guys are alluding to?
With the available leadership buffs and debuffs available to GSC you can use Mental Onslaught to autokill every unit in the game. Takes quite a set up.
Mr_Rose wrote: What is this mysterious super-tactic you guys are alluding to?
Buffing a patriarch's Ld and/or debuffing the opponent's Ld to the point where yours is six higher, then casting Mental Onslaught. As you can't ever lose the roll, that one model take an endless stream of mortal wounds and dies instantly.
It's not that hard to set up, but you can be left standing out in the open if one of the parts fails to come through.
Wayniac wrote: So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.
Here's my thing. Is there a leadership bomb that is in the same solar system of effectiveness as this one, if everything goes right? Nope. That's bad game design. If they go back and errata the Harlequin or Night Lords or Grey Knights powers or strats to be close to as powerful as this one, okay. But as it is, it's really bad form to give this sort of thing to Genestealer Cults and nothing else.
Wayniac wrote: So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.
Here's my thing. Is there a leadership bomb that is in the same solar system of effectiveness as this one, if everything goes right? Nope. That's bad game design. If they go back and errata the Harlequin or Night Lords or Grey Knights powers or strats to be close to as powerful as this one, okay. But as it is, it's really bad form to give this sort of thing to Genestealer Cults and nothing else.
Indeed, just as stupid as their decision to make APGitM different to Vect and to not allow every army the ability to do the same thing. We’re on the way to 7th balance.
Albino Squirrel wrote: So there's a way to set up a situation where you can remove a single model? That does sound pretty game-breaking.
run some knights with a loyal 32 and you can remove multiple models just as easily
The cost:reward ratio isn't exactly similar.
A few hundred points of GSC can delete apocalypse-level units.
Apocalypse style games are about as far from balanced as you can get, with weird and completely broken stuff flying everywhere. About the biggest thing this can kill in a game with even reasonably sane rules is a knight dominus, and it's the cult's way of dealing with such super heavies at "range" (18" isn't much range, but what can you do). You can also pretty easily shut down the combo with some psychic defense, or at least threaten the chances of it going off enough that risking everything involved isn't worth it anymore for the cult player.
Wayniac wrote: So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.
Here's my thing. Is there a leadership bomb that is in the same solar system of effectiveness as this one, if everything goes right? Nope. That's bad game design. If they go back and errata the Harlequin or Night Lords or Grey Knights powers or strats to be close to as powerful as this one, okay. But as it is, it's really bad form to give this sort of thing to Genestealer Cults and nothing else.
So they have one good anti-heavy power that requires investment of multiple characters, relics, and psychic powers to work? Each army is good at different things and gets different toys, this just happens to be one gsc got (much like they didn't get flyers or terminators). It's also a trick that you can disrupt without too much issue, just by bringing some psychic might of your own (or buffing your big thing's leadership yourself, if you have that option).
Albino Squirrel wrote: So there's a way to set up a situation where you can remove a single model? That does sound pretty game-breaking.
run some knights with a loyal 32 and you can remove multiple models just as easily
The cost:reward ratio isn't exactly similar.
A few hundred points of GSC can delete apocalypse-level units.
While being fragile as hell and pretty easy to just erase from the board. GSC are a tinfoil tacnuke. They can really put out a lot of hurt IF you somehow have everything lines up, in range and not dead
A Castellan with CP to burn can do the same thing from the other side of the battlefield, whilst being basically immune to enemy action if you screen right and keep pumping those CPs. I've had 'Apocalype level units' like Scabathriax, a Shadowsword etc deleted turn 1, before they even acted, by a few hundred points of knights.
The Mental onslaught bomb revolves around the Patriarch. He's the only one who can make it work properly. I've had mine tagged out turn 2 by a unit of ratlings , or a couple of units of Eldar rangers several times, as he is (like most GSC) a fragile as hell blender. Yes, he can pass off wounds if he lucks out to his screen, but it's not automatic, and he only has 6 wounds on a T 5 frame with a 5 ++ . Can they do that to knights as easily?
Yes, if the stars all align, you make your psychic test, are not denied, can get close enough to cast and maybe get a debuff off, you can probably delete a single model. Its powerful. Apparently intentionally so, given GW's correction of their FAQ to not limit it. It is especially potent if your opponent put a lot of their eggs in one basket with a high-points model like a knight, which GSC have few other good answers for.
Albino Squirrel wrote: So there's a way to set up a situation where you can remove a single model? That does sound pretty game-breaking.
run some knights with a loyal 32 and you can remove multiple models just as easily
The cost:reward ratio isn't exactly similar.
A few hundred points of GSC can delete apocalypse-level units.
Apocalypse style games are about as far from balanced as you can get, with weird and completely broken stuff flying everywhere. About the biggest thing this can kill in a game with even reasonably sane rules is a knight dominus, and it's the cult's way of dealing with such super heavies at "range" (18" isn't much range, but what can you do). You can also pretty easily shut down the combo with some psychic defense, or at least threaten the chances of it going off enough that risking everything involved isn't worth it anymore for the cult player.
I'm not saying it's practical to achieve the superheavy instakills or that the power is itself game-breaking (though you have pretty great chances of taking a lot of wounds off superheavies with very little effort with just a patriarch and one support character - and you probably have them running around together in an aberrant melee deathstar anyway so it's not a specific set up just for that power). I'm just saying that the comparison with 500+ points of stuff burning CPs is silly.
Mental Onslaught is a GSC psychic power. Like many of the GSC powers it’s all about using your LD.
You roll D6 plus your Ld against D6 plus theirs. If your score beats theirs you deal a mortal wound and go again.
The best vehicle for is is the Patriarch, who is LD 10 base. There are ways to buff his Ld such as the warlord trait no one uses from the main rulebook (+1 ld bubble for warlord and within 6’’) or having a Clamavus nearbyfor a +1. There are ways to reduce enemy LD too, such as having a locus within 6’’ or certain other psychic powers from guard or Nids. There are relics that can help with this too.
It is possible to buff your ld high enough/ debuff the enemy enough to autopass the roll and effectively kill the target without them being able to save, but it takes a LOT of setup and some luck to get close enough and get the power off.
Since the Patriarch has to be your warlord, if you take one, you are putting him in prime position to be shot in reprisal next turn, along with his retinue
Patriarch, rulebook warlord trait inspirational leader for +1 LD aura
Broodsurge detachment relic for +1 LD aura on an iconward
Clamavus for another +1 LD aura
Your Patriarch is now LD 13
Ally in Nids for the horror power for -1 LD Cult ambush a locus for another -1 LD 6" aura (lying in wait to get 3" away)
So now you need to pick a target and decide how many stacking mods you need to auto kill it based on it's LD because if you get a 6 point spread it just auto loses the roll off and dies to infinite mortal wounds. So anything LD 7 doesn't need debuffs, many vehicles and monsters are 7 for example. A knight is a 9, you would need all the mods to auto kill it. Theres a couple other ways for mods but this is the gist of it.
As others have said, it can be hella powerful and delete any single model in the game in one go.
However, the cost is pretty high.
First off you need the following units (at least)-
Patriarch, Clamavus, Locus, Iconward, totalling 273 points base and 4-6 CP. This gets you to Ld 13 on the Patriarch and gives your opponent a -1 Ld.
If you want to go down the Flying Hive Tyrant with Horror route, then you’re adding on at least 210 points + the cost of the rest of the detachment.
All this to drop down on turn 2 to -hopefully- get your Locus within 6” of the Castellan and then get the power cast with the likelihood that you’ll also be up against a Culexus assassin that’ll now get plugged into most Imperium lists.
While I don't think this will end up being a really big deal, I still dislike the idea behind it. It's a lot of moving parts so getting all of those off should be rewarded but auto-killing units just doesn't seem very fun. If they'd changed it to that you still have to roll off because a GSC roll of 1 always fail I'd been super cool with it. The GSC player would probably save a CP for the occasion and still get 10-ish MWs off.
Infinite MO is extremely powerful. It can be used to snipe characters too. Calling the setup difficult is an overstatement. Really you need to pass two psychic powers at Power Level 6 which is easy considering you'll be saving re-rolls for that, and just pick the right abilities to your list. It's not an expensive commitment to have the ability to one shot a Castellan.
I played against this setup last weekend at a GT and managed to avoid my Castellan getting nuked, but it was a hammer and anvil deployment and I kept it far behind my first and second lines pretty much the whole game.
For those unaware, GSC can deep strike pretty much wherever they want unless you can do multiple layers of screens (and have the deployment space to do so). One unit can come within 3" of your units and shoot in the movement phase clearing the chaff for the rest of the units to deep strike inside your lines. It's not really that difficult to get the Patriarch within 18" of whatever it wants to click delete automagically.
Lastly, even at 6 max of mortal wounds it would still have been a useful ability, considering it can snipe any 6 wound hero pretty easily. Stratagem denys can be GSC-vected if necessary. At no max, you can't really run for example a Krast Crusader into the GSC lines as a counter charge unit because it'll just get autodeleted without any real cost to the GSC player.
Really it will have more of an impact than people think. In the flying circus games the Patriarch may very well kill 4 Eldar flyers by himself with MO every turn.
Really it will have more of an impact than people think. In the flying circus games the Patriarch may very well kill 4 Eldar flyers by himself with MO every turn.
What. I'm curious to hear how this is supposed to happen.
At Max, one a turn (three if they can be squadroned), since it's a psychic power that can only be attempted once a turn, right?
He can't fly, and unless you're taking a familiar, can only cast one power a turn.
A 18" range WC 6 psychic powers that can do more than 2 average wounds (smite) is already good in that it doesn't need to target the closest enemy unit.
That it's can potentially kill a 200+ pt model with a setup, or do 6-8 wounds with little setup is likely too good for a wc6 power.
It likely should be wc8, or 12" and wc7, or cap out at 6 wounds..etc.
Im sure it could be done, but keeping the leadership buffs and debuffs alive around him and moving into range would be problematic. It's nice to finally have a good answer to fliers as cult though.
Since relying on 5-6+ BS mining laser shots was terrible in the index.
Those flyers are fast and stupid agile. If they are all hanging out within his range while the rest of the army does nothing to gun the patriarch down or deny his powers, then yes, they will die. And deserve it.
Frankly I find -2 to -3 to hit Alaitoc flyers far more annoying and gamebreaking than Onslaught.
GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.
Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.
I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.
I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.
The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.
To protect a knight (or anything else Ld 9), all you have to do is keep a few chaff models nearby. The locus has to get within 6" for his debuff to work, so you just make a circle 3" from the knight with a guard squad and he can't get close enough to tag it with the aura. At that point the multi-character, multi-power, multi-CP using combo is going to do a survivable number of wounds (don't forget the 5+++ knight strat) and the gsc will be exactly as exposed. Or just deny one of the powers (and/or bring an Eversore if you really want to screw them over). It's not hard to protect yourself from the insta-gib.
The combo is going to nuke the odd knight every once and a while (maybe all the screens within double moving guard + knight movement range (~28", so basically all of them) died turn one somehow, the player forgot and outpaced the guard, there was a gap left in the circle by mistake, etc.), but it's not going to be blowing them up left and right. And since GSC lack the capability for an overwhelming ranged alpha strike against a knight, it's really just their (much more convoluted) equivalent.
Also note that the locus uses the same strat that lets the hand flamer bomb work, so the cult player can't do that on a turn they want to go for the knight-nuke.
Wayniac wrote: So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.
It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.
Here's my thing. Is there a leadership bomb that is in the same solar system of effectiveness as this one, if everything goes right? Nope. That's bad game design. If they go back and errata the Harlequin or Night Lords or Grey Knights powers or strats to be close to as powerful as this one, okay. But as it is, it's really bad form to give this sort of thing to Genestealer Cults and nothing else.
I mean, the best eldar LD bomb is 12+2D6 mortal wounds, which I would definitely call "the same solar system of effectiveness".
The night lords do not have nearly as many parts to their LD bomb strategy as eldar soup or GSC. They can only stack to a -3, and only have Gift of Chaos as a ld-based spell.
oni wrote: GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.
Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.
I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.
I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.
The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.
What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.
I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.
I love how anyone defending the absurdity of that power always needs to suggest turtling all the expensive models in the corner all game. As if that isn't a win in itself.
It's a WC 6 power on models that can appear anywhere, with the character keyword and a horde army to play bodyguard. Any GSC list will almost always have a clamavus, inconward and patriarch anyway.
oni wrote: GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.
Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.
I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.
I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.
The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.
What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.
I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.
As a GSC player myself I can tell you I wasn't using that combo until the post release FAQ. Your assuming they all tried the combo or would have to begin with.
Red Corsair wrote: I love how anyone defending the absurdity of that power always needs to suggest turtling all the expensive models in the corner all game. As if that isn't a win in itself.
It's a WC 6 power on models that can appear anywhere, with the character keyword and a horde army to play bodyguard. Any GSC list will almost always have a clamavus, inconward and patriarch anyway.
oni wrote: GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.
Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.
I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.
I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.
The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.
What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.
I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.
As a GSC player myself I can tell you I wasn't using that combo until the post release FAQ. Your assuming they all tried the combo or would have to begin with.
If it's as trivial as you say to instantly destroy anything you want, why wouldn't you use it? Perhaps there are risks involved and the combo may not even kill your target (or work at all), as I said. It's a great way to crush someone who's never seen it before, but once people react accordingly it's not a huge threat. It's still a great trick to have in your back pocket, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't call it plan A.
Who said anything about a corner? A 40 point IS that the imperial player has at least six of already is enough to keep the locus at bay. They were already screening the knight, all they have to do is arrange one part of the screen slightly differently.
Another forty points gets you a deny attempt, if you weren't already bringing one for some reason. Or splurge on a ninety-something point librarian and get a +1 to the roll if you're that scared. Or bring an 85 point Culexus. If you're really terrified of the combo, bring a psyker and the assassin and watch them try and get two separate powers through with that -2 and your +1.
My thoughts on the mental onslaught thing: it shouldn't exist, but it does and its not too hard to screen against.
It has drawbacks too. Yes the characters involved are all auto-takes, but clustering them together is often not the optimal play and the set-up dictates the warlord traits, relics (of which we have really powerful ones we might rather take) and detachments you can take (have to ally at least one detachment to get the guaranteed kill, and GSC are very CP hungry). On top of all that its contingent on a psyker power manifesting, of which there is counterplay available.
One extra hurdle for knight killer wanters will be now mandatory assasin. It will be, surprise surprise, non imperium armies that will have harder time as they aren't able to field anti psyker assasin
Hmm, I for one see nothing wrong with a Patriarch taking down a fully operational Knight by blowing the pilots brains out of his ears, but it also feels wrong, no matter how difficult it is to maneuver into position, and no matter how easy it is to screen against, that once it goes off, to have at least some sort of roll off to be able to stop it.
Warhammer is a game of dice; very little should happen without them.
Edit: just like to add, that I really despise Knights and hate how frequently I see them in 40k, but still...
That’s why I’ve hated the mortal wounds mechanic in general ever since it was introduced; there is no interaction. No saves, no modifiers and a lot of the things that cause it (I.e. psychic powers) don’t even have to roll to hit. And if you’re unlucky enough to play Tau/Necrons, you don’t even get to try and deny.
Actually thinking about it like that, the problem with this power doesn’t originate the infinite loop, it comes from the basic mechanics.
Trimarius wrote: ...since GSC lack the capability for an overwhelming ranged alpha strike against a knight, it's really just their (much more convoluted) equivalent.
Their Brood Brothers pals have plenty. By giving it to GSC you've essentially given it to Nids and AM, too.
I still don't think it's game breaking but it's not really a fun mechanic.
Ginjitzu wrote: Hmm, I for one see nothing wrong with a Patriarch taking down a fully operational Knight by blowing the pilots brains out of his ears, but it also feels wrong, no matter how difficult it is to maneuver into position, and no matter how easy it is to screen against, that once it goes off, to have at least some sort of roll off to be able to stop it.
Warhammer is a game of dice; very little should happen without them.
Edit: just like to add, that I really despise Knights and hate how frequently I see them in 40k, but still...
Let's just take a quick second to break down what you have to do to accomplish this.
First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)
Then, you need to take a 60pt character, and spend 2CP to make him deep strike within 3" of the knight, making this combo impossible to do anytime before turn 2. Hope that knight is not screened, because one single 25mm base between the knight and your guy is enough to make the whole combo impossible at this point.
Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".
Then, that hive tyrant needs to successfully cast a WC6 power, again from 6" away from the knight. If the imperial player has any psychic defense whatsoever, this roll is going to be opposed by a deny.
Then, the patriarch needs to successfully cast his WC6 power, this time 24" away from the knight (so, somewhat less likely to deny if your opponent has not positioned his psyker between you and the target)
Assuming both rolls are unopposed, this results in a commitment of 525 points of resources, a warlord trait, a relic, and 3CP with a 58% chance of success at removing a model that on the highest end (castellan) is 600pts.
In what way is this not "a game of dice" other than the fact that the opposing player doesn't get to roll any if they don't have psykers in place to deny the power?
Don't get me wrong here, I think MO in its current form should not exist. But the knight combo is pure fething hyperbole. The real problem with the power is how shockingly easy it is to get into oneshotting range against most vehicles (which tend to be LD7/LD8 and don't require you to get +6, +4 will usually result in a oneshot).
If MO used base leadership, it would still be amazing compared to other direct damaging powers. A +3 advantage (patriarch against any LD7 target) still results in 6-7 mortal wounds roughly on average. The problem is it's an exponential curve so once you get into the high + territory it's like "+4, 12 wounds on average. +5, 30 wounds on average. +6, infinite wounds."
The 6 MW cap is also fine, results in almost the same thing TBH. Makes the power slighly more abusable in my opinion because you can still combo him with the easy LD buffs and get that 6 wounds against a wider variety of targets.
First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)
Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".
If I'm reading this whole thing correctly (cause I've only been skimming) You need GSC as your main detachment (i.e. your Warlod is apart of this army) with an Patrol/Allied Detachment of Tyranids. IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)
If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.
First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)
Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".
If I'm reading this whole thing correctly (cause I've only been skimming) You need GSC as your main detachment (i.e. your Warlod is apart of this army) with an Patrol/Allied Detachment of Tyranids. IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)
If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.
The Bounty of the Hive Mind strategem allows extra relics to be taken, correct? More CP investment for the combo then.
Of course I might have missed an FAQ about relics and strategems being used by different Detachments in an army.
BomBomHotdog wrote: IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)
If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.
You only get the free relic for the faction your warlord belongs to. You can still buy extra relics with CP.
Also, there is a GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait each to a Patriarch, Magus and Primus so long as the Patriarch is warlord.
BomBomHotdog wrote: IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)
If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.
You only get the free relic for the faction your warlord belongs to. You can still buy extra relics with CP.
Also, there is a GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait each to a Patriarch, Magus and Primus so long as the Patriarch is warlord.
Right. You do need to spend 1cp to get the jorm relic on the hive tyrant.
Also, FWIW, the flyrant and locus are essentially suiciding for the combo. You spend 280 points to take that 58% shot.
Flyrant could even be dead before Turn 2, seeing as it's easily targeted on the board, but has to move up to get into range to use it's relic. It it also has the fly keyword, so doesn't benefit from Jorm traits, and would likely much rather be a different fleet.
Could always plop the Infrasonic roar on OOE, and run him with a big screen of bodies? Turn two you could probably get him in range of whatever you wanted, and if all else fails, he's often the cruise missile sent to deal with a Castellan (if that is the target).
Of course then your adding more psychic support behind him to throw out the Horror on your target, and give him the ability to charge after advancing....
I guess we can see who are Knight players or players who don't want to change their army for a this could happen and not actually make a "take all comers".
With the FAQ out in the wild and no more releases on the horizon I am locking this one down now. Please take all further discussion regarding alpha-strikes, boggles of the mind and other such things to their respective forums.
Slow clap.
