The one with the huge metal hump from the Servitor kill team is also super neat, and the box has two Mech characters for less than the cost of two clampacks, and the servitors are free.
lord_blackfang wrote: The one with the huge metal hump from the Servitor kill team is also super neat, and the box has two Mech characters for less than the cost of two clampacks, and the servitors are free.
That kit is great and I might pick up another box or 2.
It's a very cool if curious set because without it the 40K Mechanicus doesn't even have any other servitors whilst the 30K does. So you'd almost think they were stolen from 30K development.
Overread wrote: It's a very cool if curious set because without it the 40K Mechanicus doesn't even have any other servitors whilst the 30K does. So you'd almost think they were stolen from 30K development.
40k AdMech has battle servitors on tracks. It's 30k that doesn't have any servitors, the Mechanicum seems to rely on automata instead - at least on the battlefield.
Battle servitors have had rules since 1.0. They've just not had models since the metal ones (the lads you usually saw alongside Techmarines in older 40k editions) were discontinued.
You could arguably consider Tech-Thralls an extremely cheap and basic form of combat servitor.
Ashiraya wrote: Battle servitors have had rules since 1.0. They've just not had models since the metal ones (the lads you usually saw alongside Techmarines in older 40k editions) were discontinued.
I know (though I wouldn't call the five 1.0 models battle servitors), but the only servitor unit in the AdMech army (outside legends and ignoring the poor guy on the Ironstrider) since they got a codex were the Kataphrons.
Ashiraya wrote: You could arguably consider Tech-Thralls an extremely cheap and basic form of combat servitor.
They're more like grimdark conscripts.
But of course, background-wise they have a lot servitors in both timelines. Just not so much in the armed forces.
This is only the first sheaf from a vast library of lore that we’ll be dropping each Thursday for the foreseeable future, so come back next week when we open the file on the notorious Thramas Crusade – the Night Lords’ three-year campaign of terror against the Emperor’s worlds.
Overread wrote: It's a very cool if curious set because without it the 40K Mechanicus doesn't even have any other servitors whilst the 30K does. So you'd almost think they were stolen from 30K development.
The classic Servitors are in Legends. As is X101 from Blackstone.
Just because you choose not to use Legends units doesn't make them not exist.
Good for the community, particularly the new folk, to get access to the stuff. The earlier black books in particular are still as brilliant now as when they were first published. Wonder why they picked the NL to start with
I dont think GW wants to play into an angle of "HH is Alan's baby" too much. I mean, they never played to an angle such as "40K is Rick's baby" so why would they do so with HH
Come to think of it, I don't recall a single time GW would acknowledge publicly that their IP would be partially because of any single individual's work..
tauist wrote: Come to think of it, I don't recall a single time GW would acknowledge publicly that their IP would be partially because of any single individual's work..
That’s because it would be very silly for them to do that, from a legal point of view. Or you get situations like the one that arose with Dr Who, where the rights to the Dalek didn’t belong entirely to the BBC. I’m sure that GW’s employees all have the standard clause that provides that any IP they generate belongs to the company.
That’s a pretty common thing in terms of art creation. If made under contract (as in, you’re an employee not a freelancer) then anything you produce during working hours belongs to the company, not the individual.
And I’d imagine you just need a similar clause with any Freelancer, even if you’re buying an existing piece they’ve made. Latter might affect the price of course. But it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to have in the agreed bill of sale and that.
Hopefully I can find someone with a right-handed pyrithite spear. I'd rather not have to spend $35 on a five-pack just to better convert the Shield-Captain.
Much, much prefer the way these look over the 40K ones. I feel jealous, these will all have 40K rules (which most likely wont even be Legend'd when 11th ed arrives)
I love the static, more upright poses of these new models, also look a bit less chunky while still conveying power and poise. Don't like the oversized mags sticking out like that though.
From the associated Warhammer Community article, emphasis mine
We’ve dropped a few hints that some of these models are also perfect for using in Warhammer 40,000 and it’s entirely true. A rules update for the Adeptus Custodes is set for later this year. But several of these new miniatures are already perfectly suitable to represent current units in Warhammer 40,000.
Manage your own expectations, but it seems entirely possible this will be dual setting range. Just not entirely sure it will all be coming over.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BorderCountess wrote: Hopefully I can find someone with a right-handed pyrithite spear. I'd rather not have to spend $35 on a five-pack just to better convert the Shield-Captain.
I expect we’ll see weapon upgrade packs like those for the Astartes.
We’ve dropped a few hints that some of these models are also perfect for using in Warhammer 40,000 and it’s entirely true. A rules update for the Adeptus Custodes is set for later this year. But several of these new miniatures are already perfectly suitable to represent current units in Warhammer 40,000.
Manage your own expectations, but it seems entirely possible this will be dual setting range. Just not entirely sure it will all be coming over.
That is very interesting
Great wave overall, even if I'm not into golden bananas. It does mean a fourth distinct faction is getting a biiig boost in affordability. Glaive sooner than expected. And the Whirlwind means we might see other new units that premiered in Legions Imperialis (Arachne variants, giga flamer Flachion, ...?)
At most the new guard squads will get updates to unit sizes, probably units of 3,5,6. Vehicles going to plastic will possibly get official 40k rules, and wing boys maybe as well, but resin models will likely stay legends
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe a weapons pack with 6 pyrite spears, 6 adrastite, and 6 guns.
I think that’s a reasonable expectation to be honest.
Of course, between now and end of the year? There’s time for a second Heresy Custards wave. Such as, I would hope, a weapons box for variant Pokey Sticks and that.
Disappointed we didn't get the Fire Raptor/Storm Eagle kit I was hoping for, absolutely stoked with all the new plastic custards especially the dreads.
Ashiraya wrote: Good lord. 30k absolutely dunking on 40k here.
Bigtime, seeing those two kits on the shelves near each other is going to be a laugh.
Never really been a fan of the Custodians but tempted by the new models and the value box, that's easily over 1000 points. Fantastic stuff from the designers.
Hard to see the logic for even retaining separate 30k/40k ranges in this case, now the resin is on the way out. It's not like the design language is much different.
Maybe (probably?) they find a reason next time the 40k range is due a major update, but maybe they decide that there is long-standing precedent (daemons) for sharing models between systems, so why not?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The joy of better proportions. 40K model is fine detail wise, but seems disproportionately wide.
All 40K Custodes have always looked like fat people to me. Which is why I never liked em. HH Custodes have always felt "right" somehow in comparison. YMMV
I got my hands on the new Skitarii Battle Group and made an unboxing for my blog. I still think that the Battle-Pilgryms look super cool in a John Blanche grimdark way, but unfortunately, the kit is very limited and has some seam line issues. You can check the high-res sprue images and assembly options for all the models in the box over on my blog: https://taleofpainters.com/2026/01/review-mechanicum-skitarii-battle-group/
Gael Knight wrote: That's certainly a convenient excuse for a major oversight.
Yes, the models must’ve got all the way through to production with no one noticing the triggers had been forgotten, rather than a conscious decision to change the way they’re fired. Must be that.
twoseventwo wrote: Hard to see the logic for even retaining separate 30k/40k ranges in this case, now the resin is on the way out. It's not like the design language is much different.
Maybe (probably?) they find a reason next time the 40k range is due a major update, but maybe they decide that there is long-standing precedent (daemons) for sharing models between systems, so why not?
It might take another year or three, but replacing the 40k range with these at least seems plausible. However to keep a little consistency, GW may well wait until HH gets around to updating things like Allarus terminators & jetbikes before encouraging wholesale replacement.
At some point I expect they'll also cut the legacy kits like marine contemptors & land raiders from the 40k roster, and tell people to buy the new Galatus & Corunus instead.
Gael Knight wrote: That's certainly a convenient excuse for a major oversight.
I'm pretty sure they still have Bluetooth in the 41st millenium.
Gael Knight wrote: That's certainly a convenient excuse for a major oversight.
Yes, the models must’ve got all the way through to production with no one noticing the triggers had been forgotten, rather than a conscious decision to change the way they’re fired. Must be that.
GW famously never has had any quality control problems.
Interesting bits:
Skitarii list includes all the big tanks
And a unit of mechanicum cargo cultists that come in units of 10-30 at 5ppm, conversion guide says use Cawdor bodies with Tech-thrall arms.
That's an interestingly bold statement considering its not something "modern GW management" likes to encourage in books. Normally hobby guides but books they've been less and less focused on "counts as conversions" and much more hard line on separating model lines and having only listings that have actual models in the books.
So do the TOW journals. It seems like a conscious choice for niche units.
Also, the entire Imperialis Militia army list is just "make an army themed around your favourite kitbash."
yeah, this is something new as with until now there was "illegal" to use the models from a different GW game and now it is officially recommended.
guess someone figured out how stupid that idea was
The split isn't between individual games, it's between the main studio and specialist games one. Necromunda is part of specialist games so there's no problem crossing over those models with the Heresy. If they had been recommending to use the Krieg models from 40k instead for example, then that would have indicated a huge change in policy.
It might also just be something that manged to "slip the net". You can very much tell that its a management driven directive not a hobby/modeller/creative staffer driven one (save for the fact that it makes more work for creatives which is a good thing for job security
It's like everyone has forgotten about the Exemplar Battles PDFs and non-Liber armies where kitbashing and converting are actively encouraged.
Hell's bells, the Atramentar were converted with Liberator shoulder pads from AoS so they have the lion shoulder guard they're known for.
HH3 is a mess for sure, but the studio team are still getting conversion and kitbashing opportunities through (even if it is behind a £25 paywall for a book with minimal content).
Most of all, it’s Marines and Chaos Marines that would benefit, yes? And Marines certainly already have a wealth of options.
Start adding in everything Heresy (such as more exotic weapons, super heavies, Jetbikes toting heavy weapons) and you quickly run into a balancing issue.
Custards? Well, right now? They’re barely an army. As was pointed out to me by Border Countess (thank you!) the FW stuff is already matched play compatible. But you’ve still price disparity.
So, maintaining that access, and even porting everything plastic in heresy across isn’t expanding the 40k Custards beyond the sort of unit variety most 40K armies enjoy already.
In summary? And keep in mind this is just my opinion? It’s a different proposition.
The split isn't between individual games, it's between the main studio and specialist games one. Necromunda is part of specialist games so there's no problem crossing over those models with the Heresy. If they had been recommending to use the Krieg models from 40k instead for example, then that would have indicated a huge change in policy.
But the imperial militia list is open to lots of non-SDS kits, some of them explicitly only sold from the 40k studio like GSC mining weapons. Weapon options from the krieg artillery team are mentioned by name, and the cavalry option supports both death riders & rough riders.
Whoever wrote that PDF didn't think there was a limitation between studios.
Ashiraya wrote: You'd definitely want two hands for anything that long, or you won't get any stable aim anyway.
Nobody has ever suffered an arm wound in combat, luckily.
EDIT: How do the swords shoot? It can't be the same 'twist the handle' explanation as the spears. So why don't the spears use the same method as the swords?
I’m assuming some kind of MIU or linked Haptic Trigger. Either way? Something which all but assures an opponent can never fully use your weapon against you.
I mean, lightsabers are activated and deactivated by a small button(sometimes designed to be inset on the hilt), why couldn't the same be true for Custodes weapons. We literally put pressure sensitive button technology into video game controllers, not that far a stretch a future weapon has that tech.
Ashiraya wrote: You'd definitely want two hands for anything that long, or you won't get any stable aim anyway.
Nobody has ever suffered an arm wound in combat, luckily.
And that is why the Imperium has completely abandoned two-handed weapons. Most astute.
The most sensible solution (in Imperial Logic™, somewhat of a cousin to Imperial Truth™) is to take a page from a very old book and just make a weapon that's always firing, and have the user constantly hold a button to stop that.
Platuan4th wrote: I mean, lightsabers are activated and deactivated by a small button(sometimes designed to be inset on the hilt), why couldn't the same be true for Custodes weapons. We literally put pressure sensitive button technology into video game controllers, not that far a stretch a future weapon has that tech.
But GWsaid that you twist the the spears like a grimdark Bop It!
Tsagualsa wrote: The most sensible solution (in Imperial Logic™, somewhat of a cousin to Imperial Truth™) is to take a page from a very old book and just make a weapon that's always firing, and have the user constantly hold a button to stop that.
I worry that would draw attention from the Bad Moonz legal team...
It also must really help with accuracy, twisting the same wrists that are holding the thing steady, but they can just spray and pray with that gun holding like a whole 8 bolter rounds.
I think I'd prefer if they just made it voice activated, "Shooty spear, open fire!"
twoseventwo wrote: Hard to see the logic for even retaining separate 30k/40k ranges in this case, now the resin is on the way out. It's not like the design language is much different.
Maybe (probably?) they find a reason next time the 40k range is due a major update, but maybe they decide that there is long-standing precedent (daemons) for sharing models between systems, so why not?
It might take another year or three, but replacing the 40k range with these at least seems plausible. However to keep a little consistency, GW may well wait until HH gets around to updating things like Allarus terminators & jetbikes before encouraging wholesale replacement
I don't think so. They've been very consistent in splitting lines between SGS games/main studio games. They'll keep releasing models for 40k Custodes based on the aesthetic/proportions of the original kit as they've done since it came out, and eventually access to the 30k models will go to 'legends' or whatever they're calling it these days. While it does seem like they're approaching things with more tact this time around, no chance they replace the 40k range with the 30k range
twoseventwo wrote: Hard to see the logic for even retaining separate 30k/40k ranges in this case, now the resin is on the way out. It's not like the design language is much different.
Maybe (probably?) they find a reason next time the 40k range is due a major update, but maybe they decide that there is long-standing precedent (daemons) for sharing models between systems, so why not?
It might take another year or three, but replacing the 40k range with these at least seems plausible. However to keep a little consistency, GW may well wait until HH gets around to updating things like Allarus terminators & jetbikes before encouraging wholesale replacement
I don't think so. They've been very consistent in splitting lines between SGS games/main studio games. They'll keep releasing models for 40k Custodes based on the aesthetic/proportions of the original kit as they've done since it came out, and eventually access to the 30k models will go to 'legends' or whatever they're calling it these days. While it does seem like they're approaching things with more tact this time around, no chance they replace the 40k range with the 30k range
I agree it's unlikely but I don't think it's impossible. Clearly, for whatever reason, Knights and Custodes have earned an exception.
I don't think we will ever see full overlap. The Dominus Knight seems to have been just rejected from 30k arbitrarily, and I wouldn't expect to see Allarus in 30k either. But I just genuinely can't see 40k custodes be treated the same way as ToW Warriors of Chaos were, getting the last generation models shed from Age of Sigmar. 40k is just too big for that.
Also? I seem to recall a similar "YoU cAn ToTeS UsE yOuR nEw Hh MaHrEeNs In 40K! Trust me bro" before 10th edition hit.. So I'd be exremely sceptical on just how much these will be supported in 11th..
stahly wrote: I got my hands on the new Skitarii Battle Group and made an unboxing for my blog. I still think that the Battle-Pilgryms look super cool in a John Blanche grimdark way, but unfortunately, the kit is very limited and has some seam line issues. You can check the high-res sprue images and assembly options for all the models in the box over on my blog: https://taleofpainters.com/2026/01/review-mechanicum-skitarii-battle-group/
Thanks for that
The seam line down the cloak is disappointing and it's making me reconsider the box - a hard choice given the rules are actually very decent.
Ashiraya wrote: But I just genuinely can't see 40k custodes be treated the same way as ToW Warriors of Chaos were, getting the last generation models shed from Age of Sigmar. 40k is just too big for that.
They've built what models were created specifically for the 40k range - the blade champion, the vertus praetors, the wardens, the allarus custodians, Trajan, the shield-captain - off that aesthetic. I don't think that is something they're going to move away from, and it's less egregious than the TOW example as these kits are far younger.
It's precisely 40k being 'too big for that' which means there's no chance of a 40k army being in a perpetual situation where key options are branded as "Horus Heresy".
tauist wrote: Also? I seem to recall a similar "YoU cAn ToTeS UsE yOuR nEw Hh MaHrEeNs In 40K! Trust me bro" before 10th edition hit.. So I'd be exremely sceptical on just how much these will be supported in 11th..
Yeah I think this will be a similar situation to the Kratos fanfare, 30k units will remain available to 40k players for now and then move to legends at some point.
Armiger and Questoris Knights have both HH and 40k packaging versions, with different decal sheets inside. Custodes Infantry may be system distinct with a case of sure, use whichever if the load out is right, while the tanks and dreadnoughts get dual packaging and the old monopose contemptor and landraider borrowed from marines get bumped to legends
MajorWesJanson wrote: Armiger and Questoris Knights have both HH and 40k packaging versions, with different decal sheets inside.
Good point, though the heresy versions of those kits are (and always were) online only and not present on shelves in stores, I don't see a situation where you have two of the same kit with different labels sold in a store at the same time. More likely I think is the current status quo hangs around until 40k Custodes get a wave of vehicles. We'll see how things pan out, but I think any 40k player that buys the 30k specific kits thinking they're going to be able to use them in perpetuity without going to legends is going to end up sorely disappointed
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s a pretty common thing in terms of art creation. If made under contract (as in, you’re an employee not a freelancer) then anything you produce during working hours belongs to the company, not the individual.
And I’d imagine you just need a similar clause with any Freelancer, even if you’re buying an existing piece they’ve made. Latter might affect the price of course. But it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to have in the agreed bill of sale and that.
I'm into quite a lot of other video games, fantasy/sci-fi material, RPGs, comics, other games within the wargaming industry. I cannot think of a single other example of a company that purposefully excludes the names of its creatives from its published material. GW themselves did not do so until fairly recently in the company's history.
I am not going to accept them normalising it, because it is not normal, and its quite disappointing that so many are seemingly happy for it to continue; it is disrespectful to the artists, authors and game designers who are creating material for them.
Yeah, I mean I really loved the "miniatures designed by X" texts in the old WD mags whenever a new metal blister pack was out. Also, all the artwork displayed credited the illustrators with either name or via a sigil, which had a legend on the first page of any publication. Been a long time since I've seen anything like that on GW products. Hell, to this day, I dont know who to give credit for resculpting my favourite RT-era models (MKVI armour, Indomitus Terminators, Land Raider Proteus) in the HH range..
Ashiraya wrote: That is true as well. If you are a pure 40k player I'd definitely approach this with caution. The Kratos rug pull was just cruel.
Awe, poor tourney players....
My Kratos plays just fine using it's Legends sheet.
So while I agree the 40k community really should embrace their PDFs like the 30k community has, the reality is it unfortunately hasn't, and not everyone has the chance of finding a legends-friendly gaming group near them. That is why I call it cruel - for a great many 40k players, "legends" is a banlist in disguise.
Coming in a bit late on the new Heresy releases. I really like the new Custodes models - especially the Caladius / Coronus. I won't be doing a Custodes army, but if I did I'd be maxing out on these; I think they are some of the best looking vehicles in Heresy. The whole female Custodes thing is absurd; even if it's a change to the lore, it's just one of many ret-cons we've had over the years, and I welcome it. The female heads also add some more variety to the usual lantern-jawed male heads - although I'd probably ultimately use the plumed helms. I bet we see some amazing Custodes armies - especially once the rest of the range comes out.
The newest Heresy tanks are a bit of a non-event, however. The Glaive is cool, in an ugly kind of way, but the Whirlwind is something that probably should be a lot further down the release list. And 2 variants on existing chassis is hardly 'tanks galore'...
So while I agree the 40k community really should embrace their PDFs like the 30k community has, the reality is it unfortunately hasn't, and not everyone has the chance of finding a legends-friendly gaming group near them. That is why I call it cruel - for a great many 40k players, "legends" is a banlist in disguise.
There is also the fact, that I do not trust the Legends support to continue. I will not buy a hundred euro tank, rules of which might be gone in the next edition.
Yep that's a huge thing with Legends - its not a block of rules that gets updated its a safeguard for one maybe two editions if you're lucky.
And with how GW wholesale changes the core fundamentals of the rules every 3 years that's a real risk that you can end up with a model that you have to create your own rules for entirely.
3K Kind of got a bit of a wider acceptance I think in part because it was fairly old-school in that it came out with a LOT of units in the book which still don't have models. So proxies/countsas were almost par for the course to get anything on the table for some factions.
40K is very mainstream in GW which means if its not got a model, it doesn't have rules anywhere and if there are rules without a model its only short term.
If GW changed how they did their rules to a more long term approach with smaller adjustments then a Legends document would not only last longer, but be more likely to get updates. When the rules wholesale change and GW already has to update every single army in one go; the Legends are easily forgotten/abandoned.
I wonder how the new HH custodes heads will look next to marine heads. If they aren't that much larger, GW is finally giving us female Astartes compatible heads
Still, I feel like its a weird RetCon. It's as if GW is trying to backtrack from the "Emperor was gay, and only loved men" stance they've maintained until now..
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s a pretty common thing in terms of art creation. If made under contract (as in, you’re an employee not a freelancer) then anything you produce during working hours belongs to the company, not the individual.
And I’d imagine you just need a similar clause with any Freelancer, even if you’re buying an existing piece they’ve made. Latter might affect the price of course. But it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to have in the agreed bill of sale and that.
Snip.
I'm into quite a lot of other video games, fantasy/sci-fi material, RPGs, comics, other games within the wargaming industry.
Spoiler:
I cannot think of a single other example of a company that purposefully excludes the names of its creatives from its published material. GW themselves did not do so until fairly recently in the company's history.
I am not going to accept them normalising it, because it is not normal, and its quite disappointing that so many are seemingly happy for it to continue; it is disrespectful to the artists, authors and game designers who are creating material for them.
Snip
Conceptually I don't disagree with you, not giving direct credit is weird.
However it doesn't come from a 'scrw the artists' place AFAIK. From memory there was a *lot* of blowback a bit over a decade ago based on some codex's, including a fairly large amount of specific death threats against some of the authors involved. And, to my knowledge, this was why they removed specific names; to basically protect their authors / artists from being singled out by angry and obsessive fans. This isn't a bad reason, tbh.
That it also shields some of the incredibly shoddy work which GW allows through, while also not allowing authors to be praised or develop a (positive) following is, admittedly, probably also a benefit to them.
Hey, can we take this whole credit thing to a thread of its own, as it is something that yes, should be discussed, but not here, nor anywhere else it is constantly brought up in various other topics, thanks.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Even more coolerer on that one?
For us weirdos with impractically large collections? It’s a second source of the new sponsons.
Ashiraya wrote:We've had Laser Destroyer sponsons since 1e, I am very glad we finally have a source of them (a better source than cannibalising rapiers, anyway).
Also on that line of thinking? Big and genuine thanks to whoever it was at GW that ensure, without any conversion whatsoever? When you buy a Fellblade, and presumably but yet to be properly confirmed Glaive?\
You can build two out of three sponson options. If like me you’ve two or more Spartans, the choice is of course easy.
It’s more that the Command Squad is, or I suppose now was, the outlier.
Heavy Weapons, Combat Weapons and Assault/Special Weapons are all stand alone boxes, to be bought alongside a squad in your preferred Mk of armour.
Given MkIII is the Breacher armour (being an adaptation and specialisation of MkII, rather than a true Mk in its own right), I wasn’t expecting a separate Breacher sprue.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Hopefully they will do the same and release Seeker squad upgrades and Destroyer squad upgrades, but they may be waiting for Mk IV before doing those.
Yeah I suspect the same thing re: waiting for Mark IV for those. Hopefully they come before too long as it's nice to finally see a decent array of infantry upgrades coming out
Ashiraya wrote: That is true as well. If you are a pure 40k player I'd definitely approach this with caution. The Kratos rug pull was just cruel.
Awe, poor tourney players....
My Kratos plays just fine using it's Legends sheet.
So while I agree the 40k community really should embrace their PDFs like the 30k community has, the reality is it unfortunately hasn't, and not everyone has the chance of finding a legends-friendly gaming group near them. That is why I call it cruel - for a great many 40k players, "legends" is a banlist in disguise.
You're wrong. Outside of tourney play (or a GW store) the players are in complete control of how they play the game.
That they CHOOSE not to use the rules GW gives them (for free!) is 100% their fault.
Ashiraya wrote: That is true as well. If you are a pure 40k player I'd definitely approach this with caution. The Kratos rug pull was just cruel.
Awe, poor tourney players....
My Kratos plays just fine using it's Legends sheet.
So while I agree the 40k community really should embrace their PDFs like the 30k community has, the reality is it unfortunately hasn't, and not everyone has the chance of finding a legends-friendly gaming group near them. That is why I call it cruel - for a great many 40k players, "legends" is a banlist in disguise.
You're wrong. Outside of tourney play (or a GW store) the players are in complete control of how they play the game.
That they CHOOSE not to use the rules GW gives them (for free!) is 100% their fault.
The thing is, if the people they play against aren't willing to play against Legends units, then they can't play Legends units.
Just because you think they're wrong doesn't suddenly make their opponents chill with Legends.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s more that the Command Squad is, or I suppose now was, the outlier.
Heavy Weapons, Combat Weapons and Assault/Special Weapons are all stand alone boxes, to be bought alongside a squad in your preferred Mk of armour.
Given MkIII is the Breacher armour (being an adaptation and specialisation of MkII, rather than a true Mk in its own right), I wasn’t expecting a separate Breacher sprue.
Has anyone tried matching the arms from the melee weapons sprue (which are compatible with Mk VI armour) with the Breacher pieces? There are a lot of arms on that sprue - it should be possible to get it to work.
Ashiraya wrote: That is true as well. If you are a pure 40k player I'd definitely approach this with caution. The Kratos rug pull was just cruel.
Awe, poor tourney players....
My Kratos plays just fine using it's Legends sheet.
So while I agree the 40k community really should embrace their PDFs like the 30k community has, the reality is it unfortunately hasn't, and not everyone has the chance of finding a legends-friendly gaming group near them. That is why I call it cruel - for a great many 40k players, "legends" is a banlist in disguise.
You're wrong. Outside of tourney play (or a GW store) the players are in complete control of how they play the game.
That they CHOOSE not to use the rules GW gives them (for free!) is 100% their fault.
The thing is, if the people they play against aren't willing to play against Legends units, then they can't play Legends units.
Just because you think they're wrong doesn't suddenly make their opponents chill with Legends.
Outside of a tournament environment, if your opponent isn't okay with you using Legends, just tell them you're not okay with them using [whatever unit they have that is legal] since, outside of a tournament, Legends are fully legal even in Matched Play.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s more that the Command Squad is, or I suppose now was, the outlier.
Heavy Weapons, Combat Weapons and Assault/Special Weapons are all stand alone boxes, to be bought alongside a squad in your preferred Mk of armour.
Given MkIII is the Breacher armour (being an adaptation and specialisation of MkII, rather than a true Mk in its own right), I wasn’t expecting a separate Breacher sprue.
Has anyone tried matching the arms from the melee weapons sprue (which are compatible with Mk VI armour) with the Breacher pieces? There are a lot of arms on that sprue - it should be possible to get it to work.
I was about to do that, but ran out of time last time I was at my hobby spot. Will post my findings after next session.
The left arn barely shows from under the shield, so not sure I'd even change that one (the contact with the shield arm is flat, but the angle quite specific), but right arm should be swappable, depending on the pose one is after. If you want the gun sticking out from the slot in the shield as intended, its going to require quite a specific shaped arm..
Those new red corsair raiders would probably make for great late-heresy/siege of terra models. If they're gonna start doing legion upgrade sprues, mixing them together would make for some great piratical/nearly-chaos marines on the walls at the end.
I had them pegged for Blackshields. Potentially suspicious icons and dangly bits here and there. But feeling like an under equipped and poorly supplied force.
Sure, a couple of the Bolters are anachronistic, being more modern variants. But easy enough to swap should you feel the need. And whilst I of course have me own preference there, said need is of course entirely at your own discretion.
The shield handles look like they should be compatible with the Command Squad shield arms. Not sure what to do about the bolters though.
Also that 40k terminator warsmith design is quite interesting. The frame is mostly Indomitus pattern but it's covered on Cataphractii plates. You could almost mistake it for a transitional design.
Mr_Rose wrote: The shield handles look like they should be compatible with the Command Squad shield arms. Not sure what to do about the bolters though.
Also that 40k terminator warsmith design is quite interesting. The frame is mostly Indomitus pattern but it's covered on Cataphractii plates. You could almost mistake it for a transitional design.
Oo, nice one! I do also have that Command Squad upg. frame, will check this as well the next time I'm at my hobby point.
This would actually be perfect for me since I really have no use for those extra shield arms at present.
The Breacher upgrade frame on its own turned out so expensive that I didn't really miss on any savings by going with an ebay split of the big HH box, in hindsight.
Mr_Rose wrote: Also that 40k terminator warsmith design is quite interesting. The frame is mostly Indomitus pattern but it's covered on Cataphractii plates. You could almost mistake it for a transitional design.
I noticed that too. But remember that the WHC article writers are community managers, they're not the direct lore authors themselves. The actual model is 90% Indomitus, only the pauldrons are Cataphractii, and even there only partially (a lot of pteruges are missing).
Outside of a tournament environment, if your opponent isn't okay with you using Legends, just tell them you're not okay with them using [whatever unit they have that is legal] since, outside of a tournament, Legends are fully legal even in Matched Play.
I think all of us here agree that this is totally a reasonable stance to take, but it doesn't change the original fact that doing this will leave an unfortunate number of people with no available opponents at all. Casual 40k players have ravenously adopted the tournament standard in recent years. I see casuals who will never in a million years attend a tournament still debate the latest Art of War tierlist and lament that their faction has below average podium rate.
I can only pray that 30k will remain as accepting of PDFs that it is. It's so heartening to see.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, freebies are nice, but they're still on Night Lords? We'll be in 4th edition by the time they get through 18 legions.
WarCom wrote:Soon we’ll be moving on to other Legions and battles from the expansive Age of Darkness, but before we bid adieu to the Nostramans for a while, there’s one more extract from their infamous campaign to catch up on next week – a tally of the worlds along the Eastern Fringe that felt their wrath. We’ll see you then!
Unless they shake things up a bit to do tie ins- Night Lords now since the raptors kill team is coming out, maybe Custodes when their box comes along, possibly Iron Warriors alongside the Eye of Terror release
I don’t think so. If it was a dual kit they’d normally mention that in the article. Maybe it’s like the 30k kits and there’s a base body farm and two weapon frames that will get sold as separate kits but that doesn’t seem to be in trend for 40k outside of vehicles.
Anyway, to add to the list of things it could be in 30k, throw on some green stuff robes and call them corrupted Myrmidon Secutors.
This is the best attempt at this particular kind of Chaos model so far, but (IMO) they still look a bit...s**t. I've never really liked the big lumpy Chaos models (like the Hellbrute). Maybe they'll grow on me - perhaps if someone does a good 30k conversion.
I like that they're seemingly smaller/less corrupted than obliterators. They look more like messed up marines than giant monsters in with a few marine gubbins.
Look at the arms. Both are twisted, hulking limbs of virus-corrupted flesh, but the Mutilator has additional armour plating over it. You can see the flesh is still there on the raised arm. The torso also has a lot of flesh which you can see in the high angle shot elsewhere in the article, and you can see more flesh poking out at the hips, etc.
As for scale, well, minicompare.info is as usual extremely quick in using base sizes to establish a basis for comparison, and they seem genuinely intended to be identical in terms of overall bulk, with just differences in posture, plating coverage, how high up the head is sat on the body and so on.
Obliterators have gnarlier, more mutated armour. The Mutilators armour just looks too clean to me. And on that point it’s not the paintjob for certain.
The comparison pic above shows it pretty clearly. The Obliterator looks like its armour is undergoing fleshification, the organic and inorganic becoming one and the same. Regard the teeth around the collar, the plasma cannon growing out of tortured flesh and his little tootsies manifesting from the armour, rather than bursting through it.
The Mutilator, and I’m not saying it’s a bad look as such? Looks more like the swelling flesh has forced his armour apart, or that the armour is just sort of attached to the flesh mountain. The distinction between squidgy flesh and thick armour is simply too pronounced.
I think the key difference is that the Obliterator is clearly exploring out of its armour. The Mutilator has become one with its armour and is within the shell.
One is a creature bursting to be free of its shell; the other is a huge beetle one with its shell even whilst bloated
Next week we’re continuing our detailed look into the Legiones Astartes with an exposé on the Dark Angels. Check in each week to see if your favourites are stepping up to the plate!
I find it interesting how prescriptive they tried to be with the build instructions for the Skitarii Battle-Pilgrym Marshal - if you are building this weapons loadout, you'll use this head and these servo-skulls in this position, as opposed to making these things options and maybe flagging if there's a known position where things would interfere with the arms...
That is nothing new at all. The tactical squads are the same, the arms are freely swappable but the instructions don't present it as such.
In fact I remember seeing that on the Age of Sigmar Chosen too. That kit is far more versatile than the instructions make it seem (and this is not even getting into cases like Hormagaunts where the arms are "technically" not swappable but in practice for some arms it's so close no one will notice the misfit). The instructions generally tend to be very conservative.
Seeing the Oblits and these new ones side by side like that, I can def see similarities. I'd even go so far as suggesting one buys both kits for kitbashing new, unique versions of both
Next week we continue with the Loyalist Legions by taking a trip to the moon of Baal Secundus and the home of the illustrious Blood Angels. At least now that we’re leaving the Dark Angels behind, we don’t have to worry about Loyalists with tragic secrets… do we?
Yes, right. Its kind of difficult to retcon the name of the Primarch and it relates to the name of a real life poet and poem. So nothing modern, giant corporate GW can do about the whimsy of how a lot of these names were initially thought up.
tauist wrote: Have they finally retconned all the homosexuality references out from DA lore? Still mentions "The Rock" and that?
All two of those references are fanon, not canon. There's no evidence there actually was a gay bar/club called the Rock. I don't even know of any evidence that the Lion El'Jonson pun goes as deep as the subtext of the poem.
Just mucking about. But seriously, according to Valrak they could be announcing a new mid-size Knight for 40K soon. Getting a little ahead of myself here, but if it's true then I sure hope they provide rules to run it in 30K.
tauist wrote: Have they finally retconned all the homosexuality references out from DA lore? Still mentions "The Rock" and that?
All two of those references are fanon, not canon. There's no evidence there actually was a gay bar/club called the Rock. I don't even know of any evidence that the Lion El'Jonson pun goes as deep as the subtext of the poem.
To add some context here, a lot of the ideas for these names were created very early on in the setting. GW wasn't the multi-million pound behemoth that it is now and the characters and background didn't have the gravitas that has since been attached to it. I think the link to the poem and author is pretty much beyond dispute, as there are so many similarities: the poem named 'Dark Angel', by Lionel Johnson, and which is about his own repression of homosexuality (I assume this is referenced by the 'terrible secret' that the Chapter/Legion harbours).
This is a more detailed examination and the poem itself. I think you have to be willfully obstinate, or have some other issue that is bigoted in nature, to ignore the very obvious links to how the name and initial DA fluff was formulated.
https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php
There are several other well documented links to literary figures relating to the other Primarchs, most notable Konrad Kurze, and the Joseph Conrad novel Hearth of Darkness. Others are extremely basic in terms of how they are named (such as Ferrus Mannus or Vulkan for example) - but you have to remember these were often only a single line of text and a character name with no other exposition. Rick Priestley in interviews about the topic said he had initially wanted the Heresy to be so steeped in legend and so long ago that no-one was really sure whether any of it really even took place or if those were real people, in the same way modern historians view characters from Greek legend. As such having the leader of the Iron Hands chapter have a name that is literally the latin for 'Iron Hands' makes sense in that context, and which has now made it seem a bit weak because everything has had so much exposition and we know what haircut Sanguinius was sporting during the battle for Terra.
I'm just parroting what 28 Mag, issue #3, page 187 says:
"What may not be immediately obvious is that
this roots the Dark Angels Legion in queer
culture, as The Dark Angel is a meditation
on Johnson the poet’s deeply repressed
homosexuality. Driven to ruinous alcoholism
by desires he was told were unforgivable, The
Dark Angel is one man’s shriek against his
own unalterable nature. In the poem, Johnson
characterises his homosexual desires as the
titular Dark Angel, who ‘dost my soul such
subtile [sic] violence’. In addition to this, the
Dark Angels’ Chapter planet is called The Rock.
During the late 1980’s - the time of 1st edition
40K’s publication - The Rock was also the
name of Nottingham’s local gay club."
-V.W. Talos, Love Among Angels, 28 Mag
Looking further deets on this, indeed seems like there was no club called "The Rock" in Notthingham around that time. One suggestion thinking they meant some "castle" by it, but who can tell really.. must have been a nickname for some other bar GW guys used as an in-joke, perhaps.
I just like to hold onto this cuz I know all the rightwing 40K people get foamy at the mouth at the slightest notion there might be something to this "theory"...
To add some context here, a lot of the ideas for these names were created very early on in the setting. GW wasn't the multi-million pound behemoth that it is now and the characters and background didn't have the gravitas that has since been attached to it. I think the link to the poem and author is pretty much beyond dispute, as there are so many similarities: the poem named 'Dark Angel', by Lionel Johnson, and which is about his own repression of homosexuality (I assume this is referenced by the 'terrible secret' that the Chapter/Legion harbours).
One should put not too many thoughts into the poem. All the Fallen stuff is from 2nd edition while the Dark Angels existed since the Rogue Trader book.
Pacific wrote: I think you have to be willfully obstinate, or have some other issue that is bigoted in nature, to ignore the very obvious links to how the name and initial DA fluff was formulated.
woah there buddy
Here David Ely did a thorough rundown of early Dark Angels background:
Turns out they had the names before they had the story. The Dark Angels and Lynn Elgonsen are present right from the start, in the Rogue Trader rulebook. But there's no element of shame and secrecy until Codex Imperialis from the 2nd edition starter box.
So it's possible that Rick Priestley (or whoever) had the whole theme and backstory in mind but didn't bring it up for six years. It's also possible that he just thought "Dark Angels" sounded cool and that the reference to Johnson was purely about the title of his poem.
Now, when they get to Codex Imperialis, yeah, that quoted passage sounds like they're riffing on the poem. But that doesn't mean they're carrying over any of the subtext and context.
Granted I'm not big on poetry, but to me the poem doesn't even read as gay, particularly. It reads like Catholic anxiety over having any kind of sexuality. The Dark Angel could just be masturbation. Of course, we know the author was gay so it figures that's what he was writing about, and that makes sense.
And we "know" that the Dark Angels' secret is some kind of implication or in-joke about homosexuality. That factoid's been passed around the fandom for decades. But again to me the Dark Angels don't seem any gayer than other Space Marines. The other main Chapters have secrets too - they're vampires, werewolves and Romans. All of which are kinda gay. Or as gay as you want them to be, anyway.
SamusDrake wrote: But seriously, according to Valrak they could be announcing a new mid-size Knight for 40K soon. Getting a little ahead of myself here, but if it's true then I sure hope they provide rules to run it in 30K.
Just as soon as they give us rules for the Dominus knight in 30k, I am sure they will.
Just as soon as they give us rules for the Dominus knight in 30k, I am sure they will.
Aaany second now...
I've got this gut feeling that the Dominus will return when it has a repackaged 30K specific kit, like the Questoris and Armiger kits. Along with the three Cerastus kits, I'd guess that they can only release so many kits in one edition and so they might introduce the kit and it's rules with a journal release - for this edition.
I'd consider that very optimistic, considering it didn't get rules in 2.0 or 3.0, whereas Armigers were released essentially simultaneously and did receive rules in both.
Granted, the Dominus didn't receive rules in 2.0 but that remains to be seen in 3.0. The reason being that the journals have introduced rules for new units not found in the Liber books.
I'm not saying it will come back, but as it didn't receive legends rules in 2.0 it is for the time being just mysteriously absent from the game. As much as we shouldn't get our hopes up, it also means we shouldn't dismiss the possibility outright.
Unless someone of credibility can offer inside information from GW themselves? All I know is that Legions Imperialis has only the Armiger and Moirax left to be released, and if not the Dominus then they'll just have to create new Knights...
SamusDrake wrote: Granted, the Dominus didn't receive rules in 2.0 but that remains to be seen in 3.0. The reason being that the journals have introduced rules for new units not found in the Liber books.
I'm not saying it will come back, but as it didn't receive legends rules in 2.0 it is for the time being just mysteriously absent from the game. As much as we shouldn't get our hopes up, it also means we shouldn't dismiss the possibility outright.
Unless someone of credibility can offer inside information from GW themselves? All I know is that Legions Imperialis has only the Armiger and Moirax left to be released, and if not the Dominus then they'll just have to create new Knights...
Well, the main thing is that GW hates miniatures that overlap between their games. They have made some exceptions for Knights and Custodes already, but it's clearly reluctant. It's the only reason I can see for why the Dominus hasn't even made it to the PDFs.
Yes, that's the reason why I only have a gut feeling about it and nothing more. We'll just have to see how it plays out for the Knights in the three Heresy games they appear in...
Those Myrmidons look dope af, and really make me want to start a Mechanicum army (I still wont cuz I'm all out of storage space). Miniature Of The Year 2026 candidate for me, that kit
I just opened this thread because I wanted to see what stick was being talked about, and saw a glossy, nicely illustrated, hard back novel called "ZARDU LAYAK"
Da Boss wrote: I just opened this thread because I wanted to see what stick was being talked about, and saw a glossy, nicely illustrated, hard back novel called "ZARDU LAYAK"
ZARDU!
Man, we must look so weird to normal people.
He doesn't want folks using his full name Dr Zardu Seymour Layak Jr.
Almost certainly. Mildly surprised it wasn’t shown off in this article.
And I’m definitely having one. Massive flame weapons are a right laugh due to Panic (2) or even (3). Legend still holds that declaring “ROASTY TOASTY!” when placing the template intimidates your opponent’s dice into rolling lower. There’s not evidence for this, but it’s a scientific fact.
He only becomes a mover and shaker in the Word Bearers after Kor Phareon dissappears into the Eye of Terror, and after Erebus runs away after killing Argel Tal.
Basically once Lorgar doesn't have his three closest advisors, Layak is able to step up.
lord_blackfang wrote: So Glaive and Falchion will come out at the same time it seems, that's a bold move, I can't see too many people affording both in the same month.
There's also the new Whirlwind and any other new vehicles in the tank DLC book (Ascalon?).
Overread wrote: At the same time those kits will likely last more than a decade. So plenty of sales time.
I would hope so. Really, what do you even foresee them being replaced by in 2036? They're already plastic, and I think GW sprue tech has reached a plateau. So what would be updated?
Overread wrote: At the same time those kits will likely last more than a decade. So plenty of sales time.
I would hope so. Really, what do you even foresee them being replaced by in 2036? They're already plastic, and I think GW sprue tech has reached a plateau. So what would be updated?
Fresh designs - even if the tech enters a period of stagnation on advance there's still taking the concept of the unit in a new creative direction. GW has done that before many times.
But why? The Falchion here is remarkably faithful to the original Falchion from 12 years ago. Why would the design need to be any different 12 years from now?
Ashiraya wrote: But why? The Falchion here is remarkably faithful to the original Falchion from 12 years ago. Why would the design need to be any different 12 years from now?
Scale creep. In 12 years the new rhino kit will be the same size as old land raiders, so everything will need to be scaled up.
I’m joking, but there is also a non-zero chance that it will happen...
I would agree for infantry, but vehicle scale has stayed remarkably consistent. The 2022 Deimos Rhino (and variants built on its chassis) is of essentially identical scale to the 2002 Mars Rhino (which is still available).
The Rhino was already undersized and out of proportion with the infantry back then, but this was accepted as a compromise to keep its size as a miniature and game piece reasonable. That excuse remains as relevant as ever.
Terminators on the other hand, oh boy. I still think one of the funniest things I saw was last summer when 40k players saw the Saturnine box. I saw some 40k players on reddit ranting and raving about how the Saturnines make the Leviathan Indomitus Terminators look "small" and "pathetic" and how GW needs to refresh the Leviathan Terminators to "true scale".
Ashiraya wrote: I would agree for infantry, but vehicle scale has stayed remarkably consistent. The 2022 Deimos Rhino (and variants built on its chassis) is of essentially identical scale to the 2002 Mars Rhino (which is still available).
The Rhino was already undersized and out of proportion with the infantry back then, but this was accepted as a compromise to keep its size as a miniature and game piece reasonable. That excuse remains as relevant as ever.
Terminators on the other hand, oh boy. I still think one of the funniest things I saw was last summer when 40k players saw the Saturnine box. I saw some 40k players on reddit ranting and raving about how the Saturnines make the Leviathan Indomitus Terminators look "small" and "pathetic" and how GW needs to refresh the Leviathan Terminators to "true scale".
This community sure has some size queens, huh?
It’s not the size of the marine, it’s how you field them.
I agree that modern plastics are pretty solid, with not a whole lot of reasons to replace them. Sprues are pretty tightly packed, detail is crisp. There is no reason a modern sculpt couldn't see decades of service. But GW wants to sell us new kits, so what excuses could they come up with to get old grognards to repurchase their armies? Adding more options to the kit would be one. While the HH is more set/described then 40k, they could add new variants/options. Scale creep is another. Even if tanks are generally pretty stable, there may come a point where they need to re-do the turret gunners/commanders/drivers/etc to match the modern infantry standards.
They definitely want to keep doing more releases. It's really the only alternative, either your game gets new stuff or it gets killed off altogether.
I hope they do new stuff rather than re-releasing old, and that they think it through well. Some of the new stuff since the Heresy revamp in 2022 has been very promising. The Kratos and the Auxilia sentinels are very good, the Araknae is unexciting but perfectly inoffensive. The Saturnines have been... so-so, but if that's the weirdest stuff we're getting it's fine.
I do worry about the future though and what will happen when they run into the inevitable issue of range bloat. I would be very sad if, for example, the release of HH 4th edition (presumably in 2028) saw all HH 2.0 marine kits be booted to legends, like what happened to the Stormcast Eternals....
For fancy Marine units? Fancy upgrade Sprues. With, let’s face it, Mk II, III and VI having long since paid for themselves? Just takes a bit of skill to produce cloaks and sniper rifle stuff for Recon. And so on and so forth.
Sure, it might take a while for upgrade Sprues to wipe their nose? But each requires a fresh, near as you’ll get to pure profit purchase of the base unit. Or pack them in together, and balance the scales of investment that way.
I would love that, but I worry GW would notice falling profits (because, obviously, a Word Bearers Command Sprue would sell less than the Breacher Sprue does) and would feel compelled to flip the table regardless in the hopes of making people buy what they already have.
All ties back to near as you’ll get to Phree Munneh of selling the core set.
It’s the same approach as resin upgrade kits, without for some, including myself, the offputting choice of materials.
There’s also the economy of scale. Sure, any given Legion Exclusive Unit is going to have comparatively restricted sales. But, if removing what I’ll call for argument’s sake the resin barrier gets more people into the game in the first place? That is where you make your money.
Whilst we don’t, and will never know, the exact unit sales of anything GW produces? We can look at their overall size and financial performance to see that the cost of investment in a plastic mould is no longer the hurdle it once was. Spesh as, to the best of my knowledge, it’s been a while since the tooling itself was brought fully in-house.
Given we’ve a set of plastic Hive Scum and Hangars On for Necromunda? Also the Ambots and Ogryns? I dare say we’re well past the point where a given kit has to sell absolutely squillions of copies to be a worthwhile investment.
And that I accept is perhaps comparing apples and oranges. Maybe. Ish.
A new edition in 3 years will (unfortunately) give them the pretext for messing about with existing kits, if they want to 'refresh' them to boost sales.
Evidence against is they now have four main systems (40K, HH, ToW and AoS).
Evidence for, currently, is 11th Ed seemingly coming this year, in-line with the 3 year schedule.
Next year will be interesting as it would be time for both TOW and AoS but I wouldn't be suprised if TOW is the outlier and gets longer editions as it also is the outlier in terms of releases with all the resin stuff and old re-releases. Its obviously not on the same level as the two main games 40k and AoS but also HH as that gets a lot of releases and plastic so also far better than what TOW is getting.
We should know for certain if we’ve moved to a 4 year cycle with the next edition of Heresy. Because we can’t be sure when such a currently hypothetical cycle began.
In 10 years, they'll have advanced the sprue creation technology to the point where smaller models can have twice the detail and fiddly bits for small kid-hands. They'll be honestly impressive. GW will use this to market the game at a slightly smaller scale of minis, allowing you to field larger armies on the same sized tables (not epic/LI scale, but completely random 23.5mm scale that no other producer uses). Now all your existing minis are way too large, although some people will claim that the old firstborn models and old-skool dreads are finally appropriately scaled.
This would invalidate every purchase you've made, including terrain, allowing them to sell you everything all over again.
Then in 12 years they'll increase the scale back to something closer to what we have now.
Azog wrote: In 10 years, they'll have advanced the sprue creation technology to the point where smaller models can have twice the detail and fiddly bits for small kid-hands. They'll be honestly impressive. GW will use this to market the game at a slightly smaller scale of minis, allowing you to field larger armies on the same sized tables (not epic/LI scale, but completely random 23.5mm scale that no other producer uses). Now all your existing minis are way too large, although some people will claim that the old firstborn models and old-skool dreads are finally appropriately scaled.
This would invalidate every purchase you've made, including terrain, allowing them to sell you everything all over again.
Then in 12 years they'll increase the scale back to something closer to what we have now.
Don't type that kind of thing out loud! GW will hear it and think its a good idea.... and they won't even give you credit.
The interesting thing for me will be how they 'force' Heresy gamers onto the new edition with an aggressive release cycle. My observation (please correct me) is that 40k/AoS players seem to just immediately move onto a new edition, whereas with Heresy there still seem to be a lot of groups still playing 1st or 2nd edition.
I myself have made my gaming group sign in blood that we won't move onto a 4th edition if that comes in 2 years time, simply because learning 3rd has been such an onerous process. The game itself I would give 3/5 - it does the job of getting marines on a tabletop and blowing each other up, albeit ungracefully. So from a rules perspective I can't believe the next one will do anything revolutionary, but will just turn a few things upside down and addle my aging brain.
Think also the setting being 'fixed' now makes it harder to keep introducing new units and kits - they managed to bring in Saturnine (which I think just about managed to find a gap), but not sure where you go from there? If 4th edition comes with a new mkIV kit will that be enough to make everyone switch to the new rules, or don't they care as long as the kits sell?
The easiest way to force people into the new edition is having new mechanics that make it very hard to backport new units/models (the more detailed rules are, the easier to add new units from future releases)
Like if the difference between a shiny new unit and an existing one would be completely gone if using the old edition, it is already enough for people to start using the new one because once you reach the point that you need to add new rules to make something work you could just use the new rules as well
The other part is to make the game mediocre, so nobody playing it is really cares enough and the new rules being a sidegrade that does things differently is enough reason to play it simple because people weren't happy with the current version anyway
Hence why people still play 1st Edition, that was good and detailed enough to not move on.
Same way Warhammer Fantasy 6th is still the go to system for a lot of people because anything new can easily be added and the modifications to make it work well where already made by the community during its release.
Pacific wrote: The interesting thing for me will be how they 'force' Heresy gamers onto the new edition with an aggressive release cycle. My observation (please correct me) is that 40k/AoS players seem to just immediately move onto a new edition, whereas with Heresy there still seem to be a lot of groups still playing 1st or 2nd edition.
I myself have made my gaming group sign in blood that we won't move onto a 4th edition if that comes in 2 years time, simply because learning 3rd has been such an onerous process. The game itself I would give 3/5 - it does the job of getting marines on a tabletop and blowing each other up, albeit ungracefully. So from a rules perspective I can't believe the next one will do anything revolutionary, but will just turn a few things upside down and addle my aging brain.
Think also the setting being 'fixed' now makes it harder to keep introducing new units and kits - they managed to bring in Saturnine (which I think just about managed to find a gap), but not sure where you go from there? If 4th edition comes with a new mkIV kit will that be enough to make everyone switch to the new rules, or don't they care as long as the kits sell?
Unit drag, I guess. There’s more than a few things in 3rd Ed Heresy which didn’t exist in 1st and 2nd. Yes, there’ll be community ports for those and well there should be.
But, outside of your local group, there’s eventually going to be a lack of consensus on which Fan Rules are appropriate. Whereas each GW edition lacks that problem.
Overall, I don’t think GW particularly care exactly which edition you, I or the bloke over there actually play. The rules aren’t the money maker. What they need is buying the models.
So far, 2nd Ed lowered the price and skills bar by moving so much to plastic. 3rd is continuing that, particularly with the Marine Super Heavies. No, £125.00 isn’t cheap for a Fellblade. But it’s still a fraction of the resin price, even before you factor in how much nicer it is to work with a precision plastic kit over resin.
What that does is make the game more accessible in price and skill set. And so there’ll be plenty of folk like myself diving in properly for the first time with 2nd, happy to go on to the next edition. But even if I stuck with 1st or 2nd? I’m still buying those new kits. That is where GW is making its money. And I’m pretty confident there’ll be a pretty decent number of people who got started in 1st Ed using the new plastics to expand their own armies even further.
So far, 2nd Ed lowered the price and skills bar by moving so much to plastic. 3rd is continuing that, particularly with the Marine Super Heavies. No, £125.00 isn’t cheap for a Fellblade. But it’s still a fraction of the resin price, even before you factor in how much nicer it is to work with a precision plastic kit over resin.
It's also fairly likely that GW are getting increased sales from those updated plastics, as there certainly seemed to be a lot of HH players using FW China for resin kits previously.
I could order a fellblade from somewhere like Wayland for £100 and get it delivered tomorrow. Discounted plastic kits that can be grabbed at short notice may even be competing with recasts now.
Next week we’ll be continuing on our tour of the Space Marine Legions with a stop at those responsible for Ferrus Manus’ untimely death – the Emperor’s Children.
kodos wrote: The easiest way to force people into the new edition is having new mechanics that make it very hard to backport new units/models (the more detailed rules are, the easier to add new units from future releases)
Like if the difference between a shiny new unit and an existing one would be completely gone if using the old edition, it is already enough for people to start using the new one because once you reach the point that you need to add new rules to make something work you could just use the new rules as well
Incidentally, I have seen a ton of people homebrew popular Kratos rules for 1.0, Saturnine rules for 2.0, and so on.
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xttz wrote: It's also fairly likely that GW are getting increased sales from those updated plastics, as there certainly seemed to be a lot of HH players using FW China for resin kits previously.
Oh they absolutely are. I am no fan of recasts - I was gifted a recast unit by a friend and the pain of cleaning up the double mould lines (one from the original model, one from the recast), mould slip and so on was so bad that it solidly turned me off the whole notion. But if someone is priced out of the FW range then there's not much to be done, and aside from single characters, plastic kits tend to be a lot cheaper.
It is interesting how said single characters have caught up in cost though. A 40k Primaris Librarian is barely cheaper than a 30k resin Librarian.
Here are a few extracts from our Scouring master timeline – it’s unlikely that all of these events will appear in either novel or gaming book form, but they give a hint of things to come.
So does that confirm that Scouring gaming books are coming?
Here are a few extracts from our Scouring master timeline – it’s unlikely that all of these events will appear in either novel or gaming book form, but they give a hint of things to come.
So does that confirm that Scouring gaming books are coming?
Certainly seems to imply that some events on the Scouring timeline will appear in "gaming books".
Did GW ever refer to their rules as "gaming books" before? Seems kinda weird. Like a "serious" publisher disdainfully having to market a choose your own adventure novel.
It was obvious from the start that what was needed was a convincing and consistent underlying ‘military history style narrative’, a historical backdrop for the character-driven stories the authors wished to tell in their novels, as well as setting things up for any potential future gaming books. This would serve to give both novels and gaming supplements a common foundation and keep the grand narrative moving in the right direction, which, as Warhammer fans know, culminates in the vengeful Loyalists casting the defeated Traitors into the Eye of Terror.
I feel this part made is clear that they are at least considering doing scouring gaming content in the future.
I mean GW has always operated on a "at some point in the future" basis so when the studio has redone all the events from the Heresy for round 2 I'm sure it will move to Siege then post Siege.
It'll be yonks away though. People thought we were getting Terra in HH2 but surprise it was a an edition within 3 years and a redo of Isstvan V.
Actually (trying not to sound like "into it before it was cool!" ) am already playing some Scoring-era gaming using 40k 2nd edition rules - we've had escaping Sons of Horus running into Aeldari raiding parties and attempting to obtain munitions from an Abhuman (Squat/Votaan) mining colony. Its a real cool setting I think and some of the new Corsair and Chaos marine minis are ideal for representing the rag-tag, broken legions trying to escape to the Eye of Terror.
It sounds more like expanding 30k. It's so directly connected to 30k that there's not much point in trying to separate them as two different games. It's closer to 30k than the fall of Cadia is to present day 40k.
Looking at the timeline for the Scouring be like, 'that's now how warfare works.'
"The enemy forces have collapsed, massive reinforcement waves have arrived, now begins the slow process of retaking moons! And little planetoids, and stuff!" Gamifying warfare for games is one thing, now it's got to be young-adult novelized too so they can keep publishing those cheap paperbacks. It feels like the Horus Heresy is less an epic galactic event, and more like a thing that's silly. It's a silly thing full of silly stuff and silly people. A Monty Python movie that they would never have had the budget to actually make.
Some things are just so much better if left to players to imagine out themselves. Though I do look forward to someday when GW's annual report states "We're not a game company... we're not a model company either, we're a terrible novel company."
I'll never understand why GW chooses to make those galaxy spanning wars last for only a couple of years when they have a sandbox of literally ten thousand years and most of their main characters are basically immortal.
Seriously, 5 years? Was it clear that this era was that short before? I feel the HH should've lasted a couple hundred years as well instead of just a decade or what it is. The war of the Beast -you had the whole M32 to play with and decided to write a war where the Orks besieged and nearly broke the whole Imperium last only 2(!!) years!
This ain't a Star Trek series where 3 seasons are quite much to fill with an ongoing plot.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I'll never understand why GW chooses to make those galaxy spanning wars last for only a couple of years when they have a sandbox of literally ten thousand years and most of their main characters are basically immortal.
Seriously, 5 years? Was it clear that this era was that short before? I feel the HH should've lasted a couple hundred years as well instead of just a decade or what it is. The war of the Beast -you had the whole M32 to play with and decided to write a war where the Orks besieged and nearly broke the whole Imperium last only 2(!!) years!
This ain't a Star Trek series where 3 seasons are quite much to fill with an ongoing plot.
I think the bigger problem is taking what was a setting and turning into a "grand narrative"... I think having crossed that particular rubicon, particularly with the focus on all the (super)hero melodrama inherently shrinks the universe and there isn't much that can be done to fix it when that is the approach.
World of Warcraft has the same issue of making everything be TEN THOUSAND YEARS old but then never doing anything meaningful with that span of time, including making these supposed immortals act like teenagers.
I don't know what it is about TEN THOUSAND YEARS that makes it so special.
Ashiraya wrote: World of Warcraft has the same issue of making everything be TEN THOUSAND YEARS old but then never doing anything meaningful with that span of time, including making these supposed immortals act like teenagers.
I don't know what it is about TEN THOUSAND YEARS that makes it so special.
You can refer to it as a hundred hundred years, which sounds funky. The expression seems to have fallen out of favor in more recent times, though.
Gert wrote: I mean, pushing the Traitor forces back from Terra, the first stop would be, yknow, the Moon and then Mars.
That part was meant to be covered by my, that's not how warfare will ever work comment. Because if you have forces enough to hold the Moon and Mars, then maybe you might have thought to deploy them during the pivotal Siege of Terra, the battle which decided the entire conflict. Unless of course, the Chaos Gods tell you to hold them back so you can stretch that book line out more.
After all, who can forget the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. Followed then by the Fall of the Immediate Suburbs of Constantinople in 1454. Proceeded then by the Fall of the Exburbs of Constantinople in 1455. Which then set up the famous Fall of the Outlying Villages Immediately Surrounding Constantinople in 1456. And then of course... well I don't want spoil anything for people who haven't read the whole Fall of Constantinople novel series.
I think initially there was a very real reason Rick Priestley set the Heresy 10000 years before and he has said as much in his interviews - basically for all of it to be lost in the mists of time. No one can be sure what happened, the missing Legions, and all of these semi-mythical characters that may or may not have existed because it was all so bloody long ago.
Then all of the heroes are long gone and dead, and all that time later the Imperium is holding on by its fingertips.
Of course things have evolved a lot since then, both the nature of 40k, and with the Heresy not only do we know those characters exist, but even what brand of footwear they were wearing on a given Tuesday.
It’s also a comfortably and relateably long period of time.
In terms of human history, it’s around the same time period from the building of Gobekli Tepe to today, give or take a thousand years. Which is a long old time, but not one we necessarily struggle to comprehend.
frankelee wrote: That part was meant to be covered by my, that's not how warfare will ever work comment. Because if you have forces enough to hold the Moon and Mars, then maybe you might have thought to deploy them during the pivotal Siege of Terra, the battle which decided the entire conflict. Unless of course, the Chaos Gods tell you to hold them back so you can stretch that book line out more.
Almost like there were large numbers of Traitors who fled the Siege and stopped at Luna and Mars to plunder them. Oh yeah, and Mars was entirely held by the Dark Mechanicum, which was at that very point building up more forces for the upcoming re-conquest of the Galaxy under the rule of Horus.
Or maybe Horus was making sure the important locations the Traitors had taken had defences in case of counterattacks by yknow, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, and Corax so they didn't immediately lose the vital gene-forges of Luna and the Forge World to end all Forge Worlds.
But of course, no general would ever leave troops in defence of their vital supply locations. That would be utterly insane. /s
frankelee wrote: That part was meant to be covered by my, that's not how warfare will ever work comment. Because if you have forces enough to hold the Moon and Mars, then maybe you might have thought to deploy them during the pivotal Siege of Terra, the battle which decided the entire conflict. Unless of course, the Chaos Gods tell you to hold them back so you can stretch that book line out more.
Almost like there were large numbers of Traitors who fled the Siege and stopped at Luna and Mars to plunder them. Oh yeah, and Mars was entirely held by the Dark Mechanicum, which was at that very point building up more forces for the upcoming re-conquest of the Galaxy under the rule of Horus.
Or maybe Horus was making sure the important locations the Traitors had taken had defences in case of counterattacks by yknow, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, and Corax so they didn't immediately lose the vital gene-forges of Luna and the Forge World to end all Forge Worlds.
But of course, no general would ever leave troops in defence of their vital supply locations. That would be utterly insane. /s
Per Ashes of the Imperium, a nominal force had been left behind on Luna to enforce Horus' will on the local Selenar. They were entrenched, but still were dug out by novel's end.
Mars is a much bigger problem due to the power of the Dark Mechanicum. We know the loyalists retook the world but it can't have been easy.
In terms of human history, it’s around the same time period from the building of Gobekli Tepe to today, give or take a thousand years. Which is a long old time, but not one we necessarily struggle to comprehend.
I think it definitely is a span of time that people struggle to comprehend, GW's writers in particular. It absolutely does not feel like Heresy was ten millennia ago, it feels like it was couple of hundred years ago at most.Ten millennia is twice the length of recorded human history, no matter how stagnant the society is, everything would be completely different. Instead we have the exact same organisations and same tech and even same specific expressions of that tech (like the Mk7 armour that was mentioned) sticking around for all that time. It is just laughable.
When the Heresy was just a myth, things made far more sense, as none of it needed to be true. It could have been just some stories made around barely remembered past, and similarities to the 40th millennium would mostly be just how things in that era imagined it. Like in medieval art biblical or ancient Greek characters were depicted in medieval gear, as people did not really know how it actually was back then.
Most of the numbers in 40K are things people have a hard time actually comprehending.
The distances between planets, let alone systems or the idea of an Empire spanning the Galaxy.
Heck 10K years might even be too short, even with travel faster than light and through the Warp.
Overread wrote: Most of the numbers in 40K are things people have a hard time actually comprehending.
The distances between planets, let alone systems or the idea of an Empire spanning the Galaxy.
Heck 10K years might even be too short, even with travel faster than light and through the Warp.
Yet the empire spanning civil war concludes in five years...
Travel is the main reason I wish the Heresy timeline would be extended, honestly. Seven years with warp travel taken into account is just very, very little. Travelling from one system to another can take months. It took Valdor multiple months to get from Beta-Garmon to Prospero, for example (to say nothing of his passage from Terra to Beta-Garmon prior, which is not stated exactly how long it took, but he arrived one and a half months -after- Russ did, despite Russ finishing up a battle and going to Fenris for resupply first!).
Ashiraya wrote: Travel is the main reason I wish the Heresy timeline would be extended, honestly. Seven years with warp travel taken into account is just very, very little. Travelling from one system to another can take months. It took Valdor multiple months to get from Beta-Garmon to Prospero, for example (to say nothing of his passage from Terra to Beta-Garmon prior, which is not stated exactly how long it took, but he arrived one and a half months -after- Russ did, despite Russ finishing up a battle and going to Fenris for resupply first!).
I guess you can explain this by virtue of the unusual warp calmness mentioned in Era of Ruin. Warp travel was perhaps the easiest it had been in millennia for a few years after the Heresy.
After the Heresy, yes, but I am talking about the Heresy itself, during which Warp travel was most certainly not eased (especially if you were loyalist, or one of the traitors who hadn't embraced sorcery yet)!
I don't really think there's a need to separate them, considering 40k itself covers a span of time that is easily more than ten times the Heresy and Scouring combined.
If they can fit everything from Badab to Five Hundred Worlds in one game, we can too.
