Both!

Neith wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Now that advance orders are out, its the worst part.... the waiting for it to get here!

Tell me about it, I have an Honour Guard to paint, but with all the news on Sanguinary Priests being separate units, and the appearance of a banner in the Sanguinary Guard I don't know what to do with them.

I also have an unpainted Predator Annihilator, but I'm considering converting it into a Baal Predator now...

Oh well, guess I can paint my Terminators and Vindicator

I'm in the same boat here. I just got done painting an assault squad I had started months ago and I'm kind of spinning my wheels. When the .pdf codex came out, I had to rip a bunch of arms off from stuff that wasn't legal anymore, most notably the honor guard, so I'm kind of afraid to make more models until the codex comes out. I am torn on what marines to throw into my older BA stuff and what to put into my DIY vanilla marine chapter.

I do have an old baal tank and the space hulk termies that I can paint though...

Edit:

Hulksmash wrote:Both!

This I am so happy about.

Hulksmash wrote:Both!

So I can have 1d6 scattering assault squads deep striking with meltaguns?

And here I thought SW Scouts were overpowered. :(

Hulksmash wrote:Both!

Do you know the full weapon options of assault squads?

Look what showed up ^-^

No, that's the old kit. Someone converted the metal bits to look like a plastic sprue...

insaniak wrote:No, that's the old kit. Someone converted the metal bits to look like a plastic sprue...

And photo shopped the multi plaskit stamp on T-T

Oh wow i just created a new word , plaskit o_o

GBF~~~~~ is it i can hab Devastator Box now

After checking the OZGW prices, thank goodness I get 40% off by buying from an internet retailer in the UK.

Because I'm using the DC kit on in some way on every single marine I make for this, my 6th BA army in 20 years.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:After checking the OZGW prices, thank goodness I get 40% off by buying from an internet retailer in the UK.

Because I'm using the DC kit on in some way on every single marine I make for this, my 6th BA army in 20 years.

I just looked at Japan's march catalogue , is the price just as bad in Aus?

Anyone in the know the relative cost on sanguinary priests and what kind of kit they can get. A sang priest with an infernus pistol in a 10 man deep striking assault squad with 2 meltas and an infernus pistol will make a relatively sturdy mobile melta unit that wont be too shabby in combat.

Also anyone have the any idea on the cost of dc sans jump packs and what their weapon upgrades cost and the availability of them?

Um, Luna... there's actually a separate post with these pics already. But thanks for linking.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283083.page

Ah k i removed them :3

You know GBF won't pay up. But +1 interwebz to you luna for the call.

Man... I have 3 land raiders, 2 rhinos, and 25 assault troops to put together. I went a bit crazy with my tax refund... how am I going to get them all assembled and painted before april? I'm in for a long couple weeks.... At least it will make the time go by faster.

I just wish I had the new codex now, so I could take it to Brimfrost (biggest alaska annual tournament) in 2 weeks. I'll have to take my BA as old PDF codex again... :(

0ldsk00l wrote:The Blood Talon on the furioso counts as a LC (S6, not 10), and only generates additional attacks if you take a pair of them. so you give up your S10 for armor cracking. Not a bad trade, but worth mentioning, because you also give up the magna-poon option, and the S6 AP- heavy 2 rending template weapon as well.

The additional attacks are immediate, and there is no limit to the amount that can be generated. I cant wait to throw one of those into a 30 man mob of orks.

Hooray! Its the return of the web of skulls. Probably one of the most loathed abilities the game has ever had. And rather than being on a T3 4+　save guy with str 3 its on an av13 dread with str6 re-rolling wounds and potentially re-rolling hits.

So with both re-rolls each attack has a 0.52 something chance to kill a ws4 t4 opponent. Assuming 4 attacks on the charge (2 + 2 ccw + charge) then that's about 2 dead generating 2 more attacks
killing another and generating another attack that has a greater than 50% chance of killing another which generates an attack which has a greater than 50% chance of killing another on until you flub a roll.

So you're likely to get 5 dead marines (or pretty much anything since they ignore armour and FnP) on the charge and then each additional attack is about 50/50 as to whether you can make another. With a bit of luck you could kill a 10man marine squad on the charge. With 5 likely dead marines (or nobz, or necrons, etc) you'll likely break them on the charge anyway even if you don't wipe them out.

That is absurd. Simply absurd. It better have a huge pricetag to justify that.


Oh and Mephiston isn't an IC? Well that makes his T6 a lot easier to swallow. Kind of fits the fluff well too (the other BA are scared of him) but it makes him trickier to use since he needs his psychic wings to be mobile (or can he dragoon someone else's land raider?).

Well since it's impossible to get the re-roll to hit and use the blood talons your whole rant was for nothing.

Granted you can get on the charge either:

a) 5 attacks at WS4 ST6 with re-rolls to wound on AV12 with every kill adding another attack Avg Dead MEQ's:4 I think. Requires 100pts in models be taken to be taken plus standard costs.

or

b) 4 attacks at WS6 ST6 with re-rolls to wound on AV13 with every kill adding another attack. Avg Dead MEQ's:5.
Starts at 20 more points than a current dread.

Who cares about the averages?

It's all about getting the Fury to walk up and overkill a full-strength 10-man Tactical Squad.

The rest of the boring results don't matter.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:The Blood Talon on the furioso counts as a LC (S6, not 10), and only generates additional attacks if you take a pair of them. so you give up your S10 for armor cracking. Not a bad trade, but worth mentioning, because you also give up the magna-poon option, and the S6 AP- heavy 2 rending template weapon as well.

The additional attacks are immediate, and there is no limit to the amount that can be generated. I cant wait to throw one of those into a 30 man mob of orks.

Hooray! Its the return of the web of skulls. Probably one of the most loathed abilities the game has ever had. And rather than being on a T3 4+　save guy with str 3 its on an av13 dread with str6 re-rolling wounds and potentially re-rolling hits.

So with both re-rolls each attack has a 0.52 something chance to kill a ws4 t4 opponent. Assuming 4 attacks on the charge (2 + 2 ccw + charge) then that's about 2 dead generating 2 more attacks
killing another and generating another attack that has a greater than 50% chance of killing another which generates an attack which has a greater than 50% chance of killing another on until you flub a roll.

So you're likely to get 5 dead marines (or pretty much anything since they ignore armour and FnP) on the charge and then each additional attack is about 50/50 as to whether you can make another. With a bit of luck you could kill a 10man marine squad on the charge. With 5 likely dead marines (or nobz, or necrons, etc) you'll likely break them on the charge anyway even if you don't wipe them out.

That is absurd. Simply absurd. It better have a huge pricetag to justify that.

I think you're forgetting one thing. Losing more models is often *better* against a Dreadnought. If I lose 2 or 3 Combat Squad guys, the remaining 2 might not be able to escape. If I lose 4 or 5, the remaining guy either escapes or dies from No Retreat! and the Dreadnought dies to a meltagun next turn.

I am starting to like the idea of Relentless DC with bolters. Mix in a few with thunder hammers and fists and with the re-rolling hits and wounds you'll be more than covered in close combat.

The bolters giving some extra firepower before the charge or at 24 inches seems schweet.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Who cares about the averages?

It's all about getting the Fury to walk up and overkill a full-strength 10-man Tactical Squad.

The rest of the boring results don't matter.

This right here folks. I call the game Foeslammer more than I call it Mathhammer

Will there be a Blood Angel Battle Force?

Im thinking what can possibly be in it since the kits are rather expensive and might make the content look small.

LunaHound wrote:Will there be a Blood Angel Battle Force?

Im thinking what can possibly be in it since the kits are rather expensive and might make the content look small.

They could conceivably do 2 DC sprues, 1 SG sprue, and a Baal for like 105.

Wasn't there a "no more battleforce" rumor floating about, though?

Indeed there is.

And I've heard nothing about a BA battleforce yet either.

Without my flying land raiders I see no value in a battle force

Beastmen Battalion was late, so maybe we can expect the same from Blood Angels.

Khornatedemon wrote:Anyone in the know the relative cost on sanguinary priests and what kind of kit they can get. A sang priest with an infernus pistol in a 10 man deep striking assault squad with 2 meltas and an infernus pistol will make a relatively sturdy mobile melta unit that wont be too shabby in combat.?

Sang priest:10 termagants
Jump pack: 5 Termigants
Inferno Pistol: 2 termigants
Power Weapon: 3 Termigants

Khornatedemon wrote:Also anyone have the any idea on the cost of dc sans jump packs and what their weapon upgrades cost and the availability of them?

DC: 4 Termagants
JP: 3 additional Termagants
they can take Power weapons, fists or Thammers. 3, 5, 6 termagants respectively. 1/5 can take a ranged wep upgrade. I believe these were hand flamer or inferno pistol for 2 termagants apiece.

I am not convinced of the value of these inferno pistols. I find it hard enough as it is reliably getting within 6" for melta safely, and I play a biker army. 3" on an arguably "slower" unit gives me pause.

Asrodrig wrote:Beastmen Battalion was late, so maybe we can expect the same from Blood Angels.

True.

..but..we'd heard about it and knew the contents quite sometime in advance.

Maybe they're showing a little bit of business sense and they're worried that they have finally flooded the SM market with the third SM codex of the new edition? They release SM, shareholders are happy because they know SM sell, but they hold off on producing a battleforce because they're worried that maybe, just maybe, people are getting sick of our dear old Astartes. That way if this release tanks (it won't) they'll have an excuse to finally do some non-Imperial releases, and they won't have to worry about "missed" revenue by releasing a battleforce.

Or maybe they've just been getting crappy sales of battleforces? I know a lot of the ones I've looked at I end up passing up because it has units in it that I'm not really considering. Necrons are kind of a no-brainer, but not everyone wants Kroot for Tau, bikes for Orks, Drop Pods for wolves, Possessed Marines for Chaos, etc. If battleforce sales are crappy, they're probably missing out on revenue if the majority of people who buy battleforces would have bought them separately anyway.

If they were smart they'd include some kind of special edition mini in with every battleforce. The BA one could be 2 DC, 1 SG sprues, and a Plastic libby furioso or something.

reds8n wrote:

Asrodrig wrote:Beastmen Battalion was late, so maybe we can expect the same from Blood Angels.

True.

..but..we'd heard about it and knew the contents quite sometime in advance.

Perhaps GW's reasoning is that the BAs should be using the standard space marine boxed deals?

o_o This is my first time hearing no more battle force.
Anyone want to tell me the details?

Like none for BA?
or no more Battle Force in the incomming new armies?
or they'll stop making all of them?

Uhoh!

I am not convinced of the value of these inferno pistols. I find it hard enough as it is reliably getting within 6" for melta safely, and I play a biker army. 3" on an arguably "slower" unit gives me pause.

I frequently play against Sisters of battle, and take it from me, they are nasty in the hands of BS 5 characters

Anyone know what Lemartes does now as last I heard he's an upgrade character for the DC?

I may not be the first person to ask this, but I really don't have the time to read through 52 pages...

Any chance those in the know could either do a V4 of this or at least modify the OP with a current summary of where we are??

I would like to know more but can't face the UBERTEXTWALL!!!!!!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Perhaps GW's reasoning is that the BAs should be using the standard space marine boxed deals?

Well, a blood angels battlefroce would probably have assault marines galore maybe topped of with a rhino and mabe a death company. Some Sanguinary guard if your lucky.

The problem with that (or at least for GW) is that ultra smurfs and other codex space marine chapters get to benefit from the the savings a bit like the existing SM battleforce, and unlike space wolves there aren't that many unique sets to make a balanced set.

I don't think its likely we'll see a battleforce in the near future, but I certainly hope so

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I may not be the first person to ask this, but I really don't have the time to read through 52 pages...

Any chance those in the know could either do a V4 of this or at least modify the OP with a current summary of where we are??

I would like to know more but can't face the UBERTEXTWALL!!!!!!

+1

LunaHound wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:After checking the OZGW prices, thank goodness I get 40% off by buying from an internet retailer in the UK.

Because I'm using the DC kit on in some way on every single marine I make for this, my 6th BA army in 20 years.

I just looked at Japan's march catalogue , is the price just as bad in Aus?

Yeah, I think so, the Au price is nearly double the UK and US price

Edit That and I can't read Japanese so I'm not sure of the pricing there

Finally got to look at the book - some things I've noticed, going down the list: (note these are opinions so don't hammer me on some of them

HQ:
1. Special characters are EXPENSIVE. Basically looking at a Landraider cost for just about everything.
2. Having the stronger version of the Chaplain is nice in a HQ spot, but I guess they dropped the chaplain's ability to stop the DC from raging. If your unwilling to pay the huge cost of special characters, I guess it'll be a toss up for Chaplains or Librarians.
3. Librarian psychic powers are pretty good, although I miss having nullzone. Librarian dreads with Wings of Sanguinus (move as JP) could be pretty nasty, as well as the 4d6" lance shot and Str 10 for CC could be nasty as well.

Elite:
1. Everything seems to be competing for Elite spots
2. Chaplain elite choices? Wow.
3. Assault terminators have to pay extra for TH/SH combo - not understanding that one.
4. Sanguinary Guard - sure they look cool, but max squad size of 5 and pretty expensive. They don't have the heroic intervention like Vanguard Vets, as well as their swords don't give them a Str bonus, I'm failing to see how these guys are really a game changer.
5. Dreadnoughts. Let's see - Venerable, Furioso, Furioso Librarian. I'm partial to the Furioso, as it's not insanely expensive, can drop pod in close to enemy armor and use it's meltagun, while still decent in assaults. WS 6, so it should be hitting what it wants, while you can give it the Lightning Claw Blood Talons if you want. Furioso Librarian - 2 psychic powers, use 1 a turn, not exactly cheap, although you gain the force weapon and pyschic hood. I'm thinking use the "preferred enemy" psychic power with WS6 and the Blood Talons, reroll failed to hit, reroll failed to wound (LC) at Str 6, then gain extra attacks from each wound. Only being able to use 1 power a turn nerfs using the Str 10 power and combining that with your force weapon. AV 13 though on the Furioso variants so they have some CC staying power.
6. Vanguard stuff - eh. Not really interested.
7. Sanguinary Priests. 1-3 per elite choice, can give them terminator armor, give units within 6" FC and FNP. Can attach to units as IC. Talk about pretty good for the points cost (same as BA rhino), these guys could cover multiple units if you place them right.

Troops:
1. Death Company. Cool models. Not cheap. Giving them power weapons makes them just about as expensive as a normal terminator and don't have rending. Not being able to control their Rage rule anymore makes me wonder about these guys. Of course, throw a chaplain in there with them and you get rerolls to hit and wound. Furious charge and FNP. I can see drop podding these guys in or throwing them in a rhino to alleviate the Rage rule. Not a scoring unit though - blah.
2. Death Company Dreadnoughts. 1 per every 5 DC, ignore shaken and stunned, good in CC - still rage though. Not a scoring unit - blah.
3. Tactical Squads - normal but slightly more expensive, FAST vehicle rhino.
4. Scouts - eh.
5. Assault squads. Jump pack troops - whats not to like.

Fast Attack.
1. Baal Predator. These guys scout, have the Flamestorm cannon up top and can buy heavy flamer sponsons. Whats not to like for a Fast vehicle which is actually pretty cheap. AV 13.
2. Land Speeders, Land Speeder Storm - eh. Still think the regular land speeders with meltas will make their way in for anti-mech.

HS
1. Regular dreadnoughts. Can we fit anymore dreadnoughts in this army?
2. Land raiders - all 3 variants. I didn't see a cap on these for units to take as dedicated transports. Oh yeah they deepstrike. LOL.

Don't remember where the Stormraven flying transport thing went, but no model and relatively low armor (AV12) didn't really have me interested.

Played around with a couple lists - it's an interesting army. Dreadnought heavy could be interesting, as well as the rhino rush and drop podding could be an interesting combination. I'm not a big fan of deep striking jump pack troops, so the "Descent of Angels" doesn't really appeal to me. Death Company - very undecided. I love the special character models, but just too many points for my tastes. There's a decent sprinkling of anti-mech weapons in the army with basically every unit choice except for the death company, as well as plenty of CC folks. I'll be very curious to see what people come up with, as like the newer codexes, it is very flexible and doesn't get you locked into 1 power build.
I think the list I threw together (trying to stay away from Landraiders and Assault Terminators - just see too many of those in lists now) had something like 1 Reclusiarch in TA, 2 Furioso Dreads in DPs, 1 Furioso Librarian in DP, 2 Tactical Squads with MG and MM, 1 Squad of 9 Death Company with 3 power weapons in rhino, 2 Landspeeders with HF and MM, 1 Baal Pred with FC and HF sponsons, 2 regular dreads with MM and 1 Death Company Dread. 6 Dreads in 1850 list - lol.

Matt,

the good thing about the Dred as troops option is that it frees up an elite slot, unless you were planning on taking all 6 troop slots for bodies.

Can Assault Squads take meltaguns? And if so, is it 1 per 5?

I believe so, someone mentioned a full squad taking two.

I will say that I'm glad I withheld my initial knee jerk reaction to the likes of Mephiston and the stormharbringersparklymanlovemachine. It seems that the costs for the uber units is well placed and overall balance still seems to be there.

I think BA will be a strong "Competative" option for the tournament goers and a fun option for those that want it.

I do have a question though, and hopefully someone can answer. Does the Stormraven have an inertial guidance system? If not it seems that it would be a real PITA to put somewhere. Also is there any size description? What's to stop someone from making it, say, the size of a landspeeder?

I may have missed it, but is there any mention of regular Honour Guard? (Like the previous Codex). Am I going to have to split them all up now that Sanguinary Priests are a separate choice?

Also, I'm guessing no Ironclad Dreads?

Neith wrote:

Also, I'm guessing no Ironclad Dreads?

No Ironclads, but Furioso dreads have AV13 on the front.

Mattbranb wrote:
7. Sanguinary Priests. 1-3 per elite choice, can give them terminator armor, give units within 6" FC and FNP.

Interesting. Brother Omnio from space hulk would probably make a good model. Is there another model for termi armor I don't know?

Eh? Something feels off about this... Can't put my finger on it yet though...

Hey Mattbranb; one question, did you just miss the Devastator Squad in that summary or is it not in the dex?


//Edge

Sorry - the devastator entry is in there - just didn't talk about it. The book pretty much has every normal Space Marine entry in there for about the same points cost - some things are tweaked slightly (like TH/SS Terminators being a couple points more expensive).

Yes there are regular Honor Guard, who have a Sanguinary Priest in there (basically filling the same job as an Apothecary).

Didn't see anything on the Stormraven having inertial guidance.

Jbunny - good point on the dreads and elite choices. Only problem with the DC filling the troop slots is that you can control the Furioso's better than the DC, while you have to take death company troops to have the DC dreads. Plus neither one of them is a scoring unit.

Are the Land Raiders available as dedicated transports for everyone? If they are, I'm thinking 3 Dreadnoughts, 2 Land Raiders with scoring troops, and 6 Predators. 2x AV14 and 9x AV13 plus pods might be a tough nut to crack.

HOW can LR deepstrike?!?

coteaz wrote:HOW can LR deepstrike?!?

Apparently the rules in the codex say so.

Thunderhawk insertion, I believe. Note that just because they can doesn't mean they should.

jbunny wrote:

coteaz wrote:HOW can LR deepstrike?!?

Apparently the rules in the codex say so.

regular deepstrike? like a termy squad??

Most likely regular deepstrike, Termy Squads don't exaclty deepstrike...they teleport. Minor difference.

How can LR deepstrike:
One Giant Parachute?

Is it possible that the "Mephiston isn't an IC" thing is a mistake?

Sanctjud wrote:Most likely regular deepstrike, Termy Squads don't exaclty deepstrike...they teleport. Minor difference.

How can LR deepstrike:
One Giant Parachute?

but maybe they will follow the same method to "go down" on the tabletop..

Therion wrote:Are the Land Raiders available as dedicated transports for everyone? If they are, I'm thinking 3 Dreadnoughts, 2 Land Raiders with scoring troops, and 6 Predators. 2x AV14 and 9x AV13 plus pods might be a tough nut to crack.

I was thinking something similar -- wondering if it would be feasible to get two more dreads in troops for 11 total AV13 and then use reroll-reserve-and-1d6-scatter scoring Assault squads to claim objectives.

It should at least seriously change the meta; 11 AV13+ is tough to deal with.

Said it before, I'll say it again -- the best thing I've seen so far in the codex is the AV13 FA choices.

Thanks Mat!


//Edge

I was thinking something similar -- wondering if it would be feasible to get two more dreads in troops for 11 total AV13 and then use reroll-reserve-and-1d6-scatter scoring Assault squads to claim objectives.

It might be if the Assault Squads can get something like two meltaguns per five men. As long as the list has 10 or more AV13 or higher vehicles it should be cool They will ignore multi-lasers, laugh at autocannons, and be quite resilient to missile launchers. In return, they totally obliterate stuff like Razorbacks and Chimeras/Vendettas.

I just opened my Black Box to perues the codex........
OH



MY




GOD.



"wets self"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The part where Land Raiders can deep strike.........it was like heaven.

Deepstriking Landraiders?

I call shinanigans!

I am serious. I posted the most crazy things on my forums here

Land Raiders deepstriking (if it really is true...) could be problematic anyway- it's a pretty huge model and if it doesn't have a rule like Drop Pods it could be one hell of a risky Deep Strike. It'll be interesting to see if it can be put to good effect on the tabletop. I'm more interested in Baal Predators with Scout really. a Flamestorm Cannon + 2 Heavy Flamer Baal could really hurt horde armies- hell, the Flamestorm could wreck MEQs if played right. (I think it's AP3?)

can i post pictures of the codex up? I snapped one of the LRC entry but I'm not sticking it up if its not allowed

It probably won't be allowed.

I promise I'll update the original post today. What are the major points that should be summarized?

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh36/ulhorse/return4078-1.jpg - the Land Raider Crusader Entry
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh36/ulhorse/return4077-1.jpg - Me proving I have a solid copy in my grubby paws

Remove these if they break any rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
heres what I had dug up that was different

I'll pop up the things I find here

1. Mephiston does NOT have Independant Character. He CANNOT join units. he IS Fleet

2. Land Raiders can ONLY be taken as dedicated transports......BUT THEY HAVE THE DEEP STRIKE RULE......

3. All vehicles with a Rhino chassis are FAST (Rhino, Razorback, Vindicator, Predator (both Baal and normal) and Whirlwind) - the Vindicator IS fast, move 12" and fire the cannon people!

4. Furioso and Death Company Dreads can take Blood Talons, which allow them to make another attack for each unsaved attack, and this is successive, it continues until you fail to wound.

5. Stormraven is 50 points cheaper than a Land Raider and is 12 on ALL sides, even rear, and carries 12 models and/or 1 Dreadnought. and jumptroops that disembarked if it went flatout do NOT take dangerous. so it can carry 10 marines + 2 characters and a dread Cheesy

6. Vanguards are 10 points cheaper base than Codex SM, but still no attached Jumpacks

7. Death Company are Black Rage, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Relentless and can be in a squad of 3-30.

8. Sanguinary Guard are Elites with 2+ saves and seperate from the Honour Guard, Dante makes them Troops.

9. Dante has 4 wounds, but no EW.

10 Blood Angels have the Reclusiarch, the old GOOD Chaplain. I5, W3 etc.

11. Astorath the Grim removes the limit of Death Company, so theoretically you could have six 30 man squads.

12. Descent of Angels, Blood Angels with this rule reroll failed Deep Strike reserve rolls and only scatter 1 D6.

13. Death Company dreads ignore shaken and stunned.

15. Furiosos are WS6 and Front armour 13.

16. TYCHO - Normal Tycho has Rites of Battle, Preferred Enemy: Orks. he ignores armour in CC and rolls 2d6 against armour and rerolls one failed to wound. Death Company Tycho loses RoB but gains all Death Company traits.

17. Lemartes is ok, if he gets wounded he becomes ST and Tgh 5. and has a master crafted PW, he and his squad also rerolls to hit AND wound on the charge (as do all chaplains if they are in a Death Company, normal squads just reroll to hit.)

18. Astorath, if hes in, all units suffer Red Thirst on a 1-3. has the Liturgies of Blood (reroll to hit(and wd if DC) he has a St 6 PW that forces rerolls of successful invuls.

19. Anyone within 6" of Sanguinary Priests are Furious charge and Feel no Pain

20. Corbulo is st5 in CC and rending.

21 The Sanguinator! WS 8, BS 5, ST 5 I6. Can choose to reroll hits and wds vs one enemy HQ. Choose one Sgt in your army to get +1 WS, Wound, I, and attack for the battle. He has been bleesed by Sanguinius. he has a 3+ invul. Everybody within 6" is +1 attack. is fearless, has eternal warrior. furious charge. Glaive encarmine.

22. Sanguinary Guards can have Death Masks, enemy must make leadership or be reduced to WS1 for the assault.

23.DANTE: Choose one enemy IC, it now has - 1 WS, Wound, I, and attack for the rest of the game. That sucks for everybody. He's only St4 and tgh 4 though. He does not scatter if he deepstrikes though and he has Hit and Run.

24. Gabriel Seth: has a two handed chainsword that is ST 8 and rending (not a power weapon though). Can choose to forgo his attacks to make one AUTO HIT on every model in base contact. If you roll a 1 to hit seth, you suffer an automatic st 4 hit as Seth kicks you in the jubblies.

So what's the difference between Rage and Black Rage? Do we get some kind of benefit in there somewhere?

Black Rage is just normal rage with a fancy name, though it has the added addition that Death Company are NOT scoring



Red Thirst does not have rage in it, just FC and Fearless

Me proving I have a solid copy in my grubby paws

Nice one. Now, could you please tell us what the Tactical Squad and Assault Squad entries look like? How many models per squad and at what cost, and what are the weapon options like?

Tacs and assaults are the exact same as in the SM codex except that Assaults can get hand flamers and infernus pistols, and can buy any dedicated at a discount of 35 points (not just get a free rhino), so your dedicated crusader is 35 points cheaper. other than that, costs as per Codex SM

What are the weapon loadouts for a 10-man assault squad?

Same as Codex:SM, plus handflamers, or completely different?

almost same as, 1 in every 5 can take a hand flamer, flamer, melta, infernus or plasma gun/pistol (jeez, actually now that i look at it, addition of meltas and plasma guns make them nasty too. Sarge can also take hand flamer, infernus pistol plus standard loadouts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
almost same as, 1 in every 5 can take a hand flamer, flamer, melta, infernus or plasma gun/pistol (jeez, actually now that i look at it, addition of meltas and plasma guns make them nasty too. Sarge can also take hand flamer, infernus pistol plus standard loadouts.

Sergeant Horse wrote:almost same as, 1 in every 5 can take a hand flamer, flamer, melta, infernus or plasma gun/pistol (jeez, actually now that i look at it, addition of meltas and plasma guns make them nasty too. Sarge can also take hand flamer, infernus pistol plus standard loadouts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
almost same as, 1 in every 5 can take a hand flamer, flamer, melta, infernus or plasma gun/pistol (jeez, actually now that i look at it, addition of meltas and plasma guns make them nasty too. Sarge can also take hand flamer, infernus pistol plus standard loadouts.

Thank you for finally answering this. I asked this about 3 or 4 times already throughout the thread.

I've got everything figured out how to justify bringing it except Sanguinary Priests and Baals in my revamped Black Dragons...

Sanguinarys give everybody nearby furious charge, and the baal is a fast flamestorm cannon, how can you NOT justify it

so a 10 man assault squad can drop pod in with 2 meltaguns and a sarge infernus pistol + a SP infernus pistol for maximum melta fun.

i think the FC + FNP benefit of the SP makes them a worthy addition just as corbulo was in the pdf, but better.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinarys give everybody nearby furious charge, and the baal is a fast flamestorm cannon, how can you NOT justify it

I meant fluff wise. :p

btw, i cant find where it says a Death Company Dread is not scoring, its listing states it has RAGE, not Black Rage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinarys give everybody nearby furious charge, and the baal is a fast flamestorm cannon, how can you NOT justify it

I meant fluff wise. :p

ah ok

Sergeant Horse wrote:btw, i cant find where it says a Death Company Dread is not scoring, its listing states it has RAGE, not Black Rage

Vehicles are never scoring according to the Main rulebook.

jbunny wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:btw, i cant find where it says a Death Company Dread is not scoring, its listing states it has RAGE, not Black Rage

Vehicles are never scoring according to the Main rulebook.

maybe thats it then

do the blood angels have access to teleport homers/locator beacons on bikes and/or drop pods like regular marines or do they not get them like the wolves? also, which units get the descent of angels special rule? thanks in advance!

yup, all the normal units that would have locators have them..

only Sanguinary guard and assault marines have descent of angels, vanguard don't, which is a bit lame, but they still have heroic intervention

sweet. i can already see a YMTC forum question forming... do HQ's get it also or does a unit lose it if an HQ jumps with them?

if regular assault marines have it then that pretty much clinches my non-deathco troops choices! thanks!

tactical and assault squads pay the same point cost for upgrades like C:SM??

differences? (meltaguns same cost as flamers/plasma pistols..?)

no different. flamers and missiles still free if you have 10, need ten to get them etc

do you have some point costs or something>I was thinking to make me a all angel wing army,but since I have just pre-ordered the codex I have no idea how many assault marines,sanguinor etc. I should order

So just to confirm there's no way at all to control the Rage rule of Death Company units now?

usa_supersonic wrote:do you have some point costs or something>I was thinking to make me a all angel wing army,but since I have just pre-ordered the codex I have no idea how many assault marines,sanguinor etc. I should order

I'm afraid I'm pretty sure GW frowns excessively upon quoting points of units, so I can't do that I'm afraid

Yes but you can say that they have the same point cost like the SM or higher lower..etc. and argue from there

I'm afraid I'm pretty sure GW frowns excessively upon quoting points of units, so I can't do that I'm afraid

I can't help but laugh. Seriously, you can tell people what the points cost of a unit or an upgrade is. What you shouldn't do is scan the entire codex, make a pdf out of it and start distributing it online.

My local GW shop doesn't have the codex untill next Friday. If you people are being paranoid by then too, I can post the points costs of most of the stuff here for your convenience. Uncle GW can then frown at me all day.

Or you could... accidentally... drop the codex... onto a scanner... 96 times...

I'm probably not allowed to say that, huh.

lord_blackfang wrote:Or you could... accidentally... drop the codex... onto a scanner... 96 times...

I'm probably not allowed to say that, huh.

Weirder things have happened...

Why do Land Raiders Deep Strike?

That just seems... absurd.

they get dropped from thunderhawks apparently.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why do Land Raiders Deep Strike?

That just seems... absurd.

The BA sparkle so much you don't see them drive up.

Pretty Marines...always that time of month...every day of the month!
The red rage, bitchy 24/7.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why do Land Raiders Deep Strike?

That just seems... absurd.

Imagine, if you will the Blood Angel Battlebarge Blood of the Sanguin Blood (Yes, that's its name) orbiting the planet Blood Prime.

Blast doors open, a dozen thunderhawks with names that all have "Blood" in them descend swiftly like blood drops through Blood Prime's atmosphere. Underneath there is a landraider clamped on with special magna blood clamps.


The thunderhawks make a pass at the planetary fortress they are assaulting - Blood missiles and blood cannons firing everywhere.

Las weaponry hisses and singes the Thunderhawk Bloody Sword of Suinguinius' Blood, but it's to no avail.

50 feet

40 feet

30 feet...

Magna blood clamps disengage - Raider Bloody Coathanger appears to be in a free fall on to the harsh, rocky planet surface. Fitted Grav Thrusters activate, buffering the 'Raider's descent.

With a loud unrelated blood sound they land shaken, but ready to show that they, the Blood Angels of Sanguinius will draw the most blood this day from their impenetrable Bloody Coathanger.




Atleast, that's how I see it.

lord_blackfang wrote:Or you could... accidentally... drop the codex... onto a scanner... 96 times...

I'm probably not allowed to say that, huh.

lol

Sergeant Horse wrote:they get dropped from thunderhawks apparently.

Yes, they do, and it works the same way for every other chapter. Why suddenly do the BA get this ability?

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinary Guards can have Death Masks, enemy must make leadership or be reduced to WS1 for the assault.

Are you sure it's WS and not I?

so a 10 man assault squad can drop pod in with 2 meltaguns and a sarge infernus pistol + a SP infernus pistol for maximum melta fun.

i think the FC + FNP benefit of the SP makes them a worthy addition just as corbulo was in the pdf, but better.

So the BA are even better army then the SM tooled up as Salamanders?
Thats just great!

I wonder exactly what the hell vanilla SM are supposed to be better at then BA and SW?

The more super dexes come out, each with their series of power builds normal SM cant match, the less generic normal SM will be as nobody will use builds that dedicated SM codexes do better.
Thus we will end up with 1-2 BA builds that no other can match, 1-2 SW builds and SM will be left to pick up the trash, the extremely slim margin where only they do better then the rest.
Wow, talk about killing SM variety in tournaments.

On the other hand, in 8 years when SM gets their codex redone maybe GW can finally make vanguards and legion of the damned that are worth taking...just hope I dont die of old age before that happens!

Upon retrospect, my off color humor will likely offend most people. I retract my post.

Please Space Marines get a new codex ever addition, and if the past is any track record that should be with in the next 3 years. Stop being a Drama Queen until the codex actually comes out.

oni wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinary Guards can have Death Masks, enemy must make leadership or be reduced to WS1 for the assault.

Are you sure it's WS and not I?

its weapon skill.. basically the same thing as banshee masks

Sergeant Horse wrote:no different. flamers and missiles still free if you have 10, need ten to get them etc

assault squad's meltaguns?

same point cost as flamers?

10pts each

I heard termy assault squad is the same as C:SM, but you can pay 5 pts per model for TH/SS.... true?

coteaz wrote:
I heard termy assault squad is the same as C:SM, but you can pay 5 pts per model for TH/SS.... true?

That would not surprise me at all.

We all know , that TH/SS termies were too good for the points in the marine dex, and at 60 some points too much in the Space wolf dex. No one with the basic marine dex takes the lighting claw termies because the TH/SS ones are so much better for the same points.

I actually doubt 5 point will have people taking claws over TH/SS but that combined with a sang Priest might.

Its a balance issue

bah multipost.

"Why do Land Raiders Deep Strike?

That just seems... absurd. "

Absurdly Awesome!

its ture, I hadn't noticed that before, you have to pay 5 pts extra for TH/SS




and as a side, I always take 2-3 LCs with my termie assaults, but then, I usually run Pedro Kantor, so 15 LC attacks is nice!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think its going to be hideously broken, I mean some stuff is out there, but overall, it looks like a really fun list, its the first one in ages that made me genuinely excited to play

Sergeant Horse wrote:

oni wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinary Guards can have Death Masks, enemy must make leadership or be reduced to WS1 for the assault.

Are you sure it's WS and not I?

its weapon skill.. basically the same thing as banshee masks

Banshee masks make them I10. It's warshout that makes the enemy WS if they fail a leadership test.

Arschbombe wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:

oni wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:Sanguinary Guards can have Death Masks, enemy must make leadership or be reduced to WS1 for the assault.

Are you sure it's WS and not I?

its weapon skill.. basically the same thing as banshee masks

Banshee masks make them I10. It's warshout that makes the enemy WS if they fail a leadership test.

my bad. either way, fail your leadership vs a death mask, and your WS 1 enjoy those 5s to hit

i think your going to start seeing a few LC armed guys thrown in with the thunder hammers. Especially combined with sang priests and the preferred enemy ability libbys get.

Sprinkle of each Termy with Furious Charge and FNP on top with a close by priest...yes please?

Storm Shields for low AP.
2+ FNP for small arms.
Furious Charge claws for more numerous opponents and slower opponents.
Str 9 THs for everything else.

The only issue is getting them into combat...which is hit or miss

Sanctjud wrote:Sprinkle of each Termy with Furious Charge and FNP on top with a close by priest...yes please?

Storm Shields for low AP.
2+ FNP for small arms.
Furious Charge claws for more numerous opponents and slower opponents.
Str 9 THs for everything else.

The only issue is getting them into combat...which is hit or miss

thats easy, deep strike them in a land raider crusader onto a locator beacon!

Sanctjud wrote:Sprinkle of each Termy with Furious Charge and FNP on top with a close by priest...yes please?

Storm Shields for low AP.
2+ FNP for small arms.
Furious Charge claws for more numerous opponents and slower opponents.
Str 9 THs for everything else.

The only issue is getting them into combat...which is hit or miss

Thats what the Flying Land Raiders are for

or just use a crusader normally like everyone else does lol

Khornatedemon wrote:or just use a crusader normally like everyone else does lol

thats no fun!

I know this has probably been posted, but this how it deep stikes, I am just waiting for the Model

Anpu42..... Your My hero....

Oh i'm sure we'll see land raiders with wings as stand in storm ravens.

So to build this I need
-A Land Raider Crusaider with and extra set of Assualt Cannons
-A Valkery
-And a Noize Marine
Thats a lot of $$ for one Model

Please Space Marines get a new codex ever addition, and if the past is any track record that should be with in the next 3 years. Stop being a Drama Queen until the codex actually comes out.

What? Tacs for the sme price as SM tacs but with 2 flamers?
Assault marines with flamers and meltas?

Damn dude, my Vulkan army would love this.



The hammer termie cost in SW and BA codexes is probably to offset and balance other cheaper things. They cant get it all I believe.

Finally, many of the units in the C:BA are the same as C:SM.

1) which of these are exactly identical? (equipments...point cost..)

2) is there a standard point cost for the "FAST" upgrade? +20, +30...? or it's different for each type of vehicle?

Can someone confirm BAs have (or not) access to the Land Speeder Storm?

I love the idea of taking these revered, holy tanks, and dropping them out of low flying aircraft. If you thought Marines riding wolves was absurd, you ain't seen nothing yet. It doesn't strike me so much as being broken or hell, even very effective, just as incredibly stupid and unfluffy.

Lol. Well i think that my army needs to have alot of plasma cannons now and alot of anti-tanks. Good Bye artificer armor.

Brother SRM wrote:I love the idea of taking these revered, holy tanks, and dropping them out of low flying aircraft. If you thought Marines riding wolves was absurd, you ain't seen nothing yet. It doesn't strike me so much as being broken or hell, even very effective, just as incredibly stupid and unfluffy.

How else would they get to the fight?

Brother SRM wrote:I love the idea of taking these revered, holy tanks, and dropping them out of low flying aircraft. If you thought Marines riding wolves was absurd, you ain't seen nothing yet. It doesn't strike me so much as being broken or hell, even very effective, just as incredibly stupid and unfluffy.

How do you think they get them dirtside exactly?

The thunderhawk transporter is a heavily armoured fast deployment vehicle, meant to be used in the warzone, not safely behind enemy lines. None of this is new to the BA codex.

Jack

EDIT: Zee neen-jas zey are swift and zilent!

Some one asked this question a couple of pages back, and I don't think it was answered by any of you lucky individuals who have a codex in hand.

Is there any way to control the death company? Do any of the chaplains or special characters mitigate the rage effect?

everything tha thas a Rhino Chassis is fast..as standard.

Vindicator is fast, move 12 and fire the cannon. Predator is fast, move 6 and fire EVERYTHING


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uncle Samm wrote:Some one asked this question a couple of pages back, and I don't think it was answered by any of you lucky individuals who have a codex in hand.

Is there any way to control the death company? Do any of the chaplains or special characters mitigate the rage effect?

no. they still have it, a chaplain in the unit lets them reroll to hit AND to wound though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

temprus wrote:Can someone confirm BAs have (or not) access to the Land Speeder Storm?

they dont get it.

dont know if BA rage is different, but RB page 76 says that while embarked units ignore rage.

well it would, since they cant assault when embarked

Well Rage doesn't actually force you to assault anything, just move towards the nearest visible enemy as fast as possible (and if you should happen to run to do the same there).

But yeah, 16 DC in a Crusader seems like the obvious way to deal with a large group of them.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I love the idea of taking these revered, holy tanks, and dropping them out of low flying aircraft. If you thought Marines riding wolves was absurd, you ain't seen nothing yet. It doesn't strike me so much as being broken or hell, even very effective, just as incredibly stupid and unfluffy.

How do you think they get them dirtside exactly?

The thunderhawk transporter is a heavily armoured fast deployment vehicle, meant to be used in the warzone, not safely behind enemy lines. None of this is new to the BA codex.

Jack

EDIT: Zee neen-jas zey are swift and zilent!

There's a big difference between a Thunderhawk landing and releasing the tank before the battle, and just deep striking it in from space.

Needless to say, a list built around scout bikers and deep striking Crusaders/Redeemers will be hilarious.

And largely ineffective. The biggest problem melta units have is getting close enough to hit Raiders/getting nullified from range. If you're going to go through all the usual risks of deepstriking a big unit, and also deliver it wrapped and ready into melta range, you're simply begging to lose Land Raiders.

Sergeant Horse wrote:everything tha thas a Rhino Chassis is fast..as standard.

Vindicator is fast, move 12 and fire the cannon. Predator is fast, move 6 and fire EVERYTHING


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uncle Samm wrote:Some one asked this question a couple of pages back, and I don't think it was answered by any of you lucky individuals who have a codex in hand.

Is there any way to control the death company? Do any of the chaplains or special characters mitigate the rage effect?

no. they still have it, a chaplain in the unit lets them reroll to hit AND to wound though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

temprus wrote:Can someone confirm BAs have (or not) access to the Land Speeder Storm?

they dont get it.

Since you seem in the know, the Sang guy...is he WS 8 as rumoured with 5 attacks? He just seems like a beast...and for that I assume a bit cheaper than a LR?

Can Sanguinary Priests take Jump Packs?

This was the main drawback with Corbulo.

Can they? huh, huh, Can they?

Here is a DC question
-Are you going to have a DC Blob or can they break up into smaller units.

Sergeant Horse wrote:
no. they still have it, a chaplain in the unit lets them reroll to hit AND to wound though

Thanks, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess it was pretty cheesy before, having the chaplain totally negate the downside to death company, but on the other hand they are a bajillion points for a unit that you can't really control (I liked mine in the jump pack flavor, might be rethinking that now).

Also, I'm a little bummed out that Dante didn't get eternal warrior, you'd think the fella at the head of the chapter for a thousand years would be a little bit tougher. Is Dante still worth around 40 termagants?

rdlb wrote:Can Sanguinary Priests take Jump Packs?

This was the main drawback with Corbulo.

Can they? huh, huh, Can they?

Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who was called up to Chicago for business and stopped by the GW bunker.
Apparently they can... and for 15 melta bombs you get the priest and the pack. Apparently they function like wolf guard.

Nope, not like Wolf Guard, They are actual independent characters. So keep them away from power weapons since they only have 1 wound!

sourclams wrote:And largely ineffective. The biggest problem melta units have is getting close enough to hit Raiders/getting nullified from range. If you're going to go through all the usual risks of deepstriking a big unit, and also deliver it wrapped and ready into melta range, you're simply begging to lose Land Raiders.

There will be ways to make them survivable. Every new Codex provides a way to make a play style competitive.

Alpharius wrote:Is it possible that the "Mephiston isn't an IC" thing is a mistake?

Well, from what I've heard he has monstrous creature stats, with a 2+ save and 5 wounds. Hiding him in a unit would make him unkillable (to a degree). I think it's a way to balance him.

Well I finally got to read the codex.. Sanguinary priests are amazing as everyone knows, however even MORE amazing is the honor guard who get a sanguinary priest FOR FREE..

They cost 10 pts less than current and must pay the cost of a MM attackbike for jumpacks however they are 4 vets + 1 sanguinary aspirant who is a sanguinary priest with only 4WS..

The normal elite priest pays 25pts for a jump pack on top of his normal cost where as an aspirant pays 10 .. So if you minus the cost of the priest youre paying 16pts a model for honor guard or 22pts a model if they have jump packs.. Pretty good considering vets with Jps used to be 25 pts..

You could have 5 models in a normal FOC that give FNP and FC to all models within 6"

Also, the stormraven has a very good combination with locator beacons and vanguard vets (who pay 5pts per model for their heroic intervention.. better than 10 I suppose as it is in the current marine book).. Move 24", deep strike out of the raven on turn 1 and assault with no scatter.. or at most d6 if you dont want to use locators

Mephiston, sanguinor AND tycho as a DC are not ICs.. I dont understand Tycho as that makes his DC option a total waste given hes no more powerful.. He cant even JOIn the death company

Also since mephiston is a normal SIZED model you can simply give him his own rhino and sit a tactical squad somewhere else.. or hide him behind another unit.. plenty of ways to screen him. Really, hes tougher than the old 2+ flying tyrants.. They didnt have invul saves (ok 6+..) either and people were scared as hell of them..

With psychic tests hes S10, preferred enemy and rerolls hits and wounds vs an IC that fails a LD test at -4.. Honestly Id expect to see mostly everyone running Astrogath as hes the new super character for BA imo.. Dante is alright, the biggest thing is the -1W to a single IC but Astrogath is insanely powerful.. S6 power weapon that forces invul saves to be rerolled.. reroll hits on the charge for entire squad and has a 2+ save

I didnt see it in the warseer summary but Id like to point out that another psychic power BA get is Fear the Darkess.. However its only a single squad takes a morale test at -2 within 24".. The power that grants a 5+ cover save to all units within 6" is cast in the ENEMY shooting phase which means its MUCH better than storm caller..

Going based on the warseer roundup as stated..

Dante in addition gives -1 WOUND not just WS, i, a, ld to a single IC
Blood talons are S6 lightning claws that allow you to keep attacking long as you caused a single unsaved wound (no limit).. warseer did not list they were LIGHTNING CLAWS, huge difference!

Librarian is same as C:SM
captain is basically the same as C:Sm with BA options
all honor guard can have special weapons (pretty much same as C:SM command squads)
Assault terms may be given TH/SS for +5pts

BA assault squads are same cost as C::SM and have access to every special weapon.. why bother taking tactical marines.. ever?
devastators have 10 pt HB/MLs.. otherwise same as C:sm
Storm raven allows jump troops to deep strike without dangerous terrain checks.. and HB -> MM you pgrade is free.. Hurricane sponsons do not overwrite anything, they just cost a lot. Basically for 230 pts it is an assault vehicle with Tl assault cannons, hurricane bolters and a MM.. sound familiar?

brassangel wrote:Every new Codex provides a way to make a play style competitive.

Tell that to pure DW, pure RW, and Battle Company DA players.

Having a couple of AR 13 dreads with fear of the darkness sounds nice.

I think in most lists the HQ slots are going to be filled with the super chaplain and the sanguinor dude.

Kirasu wrote:
Storm raven allows jump troops to deep strike without dangerous terrain checks.. and HB -> MM you pgrade is free.. Hurricane sponsons do not overwrite anything, they just cost a lot. Basically for 230 pts it is an assault vehicle with Tl assault cannons, hurricane bolters and a MM.. sound familiar?

its pretty much a crusader that trades armor for speed.

did you notice if the honor guard have the options for bikes? We all know the biker command squad is a neat little death star unit and the addition of furious charge would just make them better.

Brother SRM wrote:I love the idea of taking these revered, holy tanks, and dropping them out of low flying aircraft. If you thought Marines riding wolves was absurd, you ain't seen nothing yet. It doesn't strike me so much as being broken or hell, even very effective, just as incredibly stupid and unfluffy.

Exactly!

Stupidest codex they've released since, well, the last Matt Ward one. The fluff is atrocious.

Land Raiders being dropped from the sky? Considering they can still throw a track on rubble that just seems like a good way to break a land raider.

Magna- Grapple - what possible purpose could this serve? To drag the tank toward you? Only if the servo in the dread's arm powering the winch is stronger than the total pull of a tank in reverse (lets picture this shall we, the pulling power of a dread's arm versus an entire baneblade?) which is stupid. Maybe if the dread can pull with his legs and the cable is strong he could stop the tank from moving away. Frankly it would make more sense to just have the dread pull on the rope like a harpoon. If orks had this upgrade it would be fine but for marines? Its absurd.

Librarian Dread - because letting the dead guy maintain his connection to the warp inside a revered an ancient collosal suit of armour that can kill all his colleagues is a really good idea. They're just inviting a daemon to possess that librarian and then go on a dread fueled rampage.

hmmmmm that sounds like a good scenario rule actually.

Fast Vindicators - I buy all the other vehicles being fast. You can use them to chase a fast moving enemy across the planet's surface/ to strike in one place and then redploy to another to strike or to harry a retreating enemy. But a fast seige engine? What are the buildings that the vindie is there to bust fleeing? If you need to redploy a vindie you use a thunderhawk, you don't make it drive at high speed because its slower than the t-hawk and pointless.

My early prediction?

Jump packs, DC, etc will largely be ignored by most people. Some people will try the all jump pack army for fun and some will try the Seth/Astorath Flesh Tearers/all DC build and have a decent marine cc army. The true strength in this army lies in the ability to spam dreads, preds and landraiders.

4-6 preds backed up by drop podding libby dreads (with the power of 4d6 str 8) and a few rhinos with jp-less assault squads for scoring/clearing objectives.

or

4-6 preds with 2 tac squads or 2 jp-less assault squads in land raiders. You present nothing but armour and have the supreme mobile shooting army. In fact you have a better mobile shooting army than Tau ever were.

Baals in fast is hands down the strongest thing in the codex.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

4-6 preds with 2 tac squads or 2 jp-less assault squads in land raiders. You present nothing but armour and have the supreme mobile shooting army. In fact you have a better mobile shooting army than Tau ever were.

Baals in fast is hands down the strongest thing in the codex.

that + termies in a crusader with a libby and a sprinkling of sanguinary priests is already what i'm thinking about for ard boyz

I'm glad I use Plasma SPAM and Melta Bombs

Anpu42 wrote:I'm glad I use Plasma SPAM and Melta Bombs

fast vehicles full of assault marines love you trying to clamp melta bombs on them

Plasma slows them down and Meta Bombs finish the job

Anpu42 wrote:Plasma slows them down and Meta Bombs finish the job

Plasma is slowing down av13/14 vehicles that are highly manouverable?

You either roll a ton of 6's (and 7's apparently) or have a metric ton of plasma guns.

Honestly the flaw of that build is that a stand and shoot horde army goes, oooh a small model count army with lots of tanks, lets kill it with las-cannons. Fortunately the current meta doesn't really feature many of those armies (this is changing) although ymmv.

But lots of plasma guns? Congratulations you've topped the stupidity of the deep striking land raider.

Sorry asking an OT question ^^;

What are player's general view on using different chapter's marine to play another chapter's codex?

For example , Black Templar / Ultramarines with blood angel codex?

LunaHound wrote:Sorry asking an OT question ^^;

What are player's general view on using different chapter's marine to play another chapter's codex?

For example , Black Templar / Ultramarines with blood angel codex?

Personally, I have no problems as long as I'm told before hand(I myself am going to use the BA 'dex for Black Dragons, so I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise).

Go ahead and deep stike a LR near Melta-Bomb Units and if its my Wolves=Thunder Hammers

LunaHound wrote:Sorry asking an OT question ^^;

What are player's general view on using different chapter's marine to play another chapter's codex?

For example , Black Templar / Ultramarines with blood angel codex?

i don't have a problem with it but i'd prefer if an actual codex is available for someone to use it. i've been using the space wolf dex for my BAs since coming back to 40k because the pdf BA codex was so half hearted an attempt. also, i wouldn't have a problem with any marine chapter using the vanilla marine book.

A lot of eye candy in the book to be sure. People are forgetting that you actually have to win missions and need scoring units in 5th ed.

Getting jump pack assault marines as troops is great. Will allow people to use them as counter assault behind their WALLS AND WALLS of AR 13/14.

The flip side of that is that all the priests and special characters are HUGE force multipliers so it lets the people who are tired and sitting back and shooting to rush or drop across the table and tear heads off.

Embrace the new (again) red overlords!

Anpu42 wrote:Go ahead and deep stike a LR near Melta-Bomb Units and if its my Wolves=Thunder Hammers

i'm pretty sure he was comparing your comment to the stupidity of deep striking land raiders. But either way you must roll lots of 6's if your killing av13 with plasma and av 14 with thunder hammers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blood angel wrote:A lot of eye candy in the book to be sure. People are forgetting that you actually have to win missions and need scoring units in 5th ed.

Getting jump pack assault marines as troops is great. Will allow people to use them as counter assault behind their WALLS AND WALLS of AR 13/14.

The flip side of that is that all the priests and special characters are HUGE force multipliers so it lets the people who are tired and sitting back and shooting to rush or drop across the table and tear heads off.

Embrace the new (again) red overlords!

i wish. Having played BA during 3rd in the heyday of real rhino rush i can say they were a bad ass army. People used to roll their eyes every time you said you were playing blood angels when they asked. Will we be there again? We'll find out in a few months

Anpu42 wrote:Go ahead and deep stike a LR near Melta-Bomb Units and if its my Wolves=Thunder Hammers

Who said anything about deep striking?

Frankly deep striking LR's just sounds like an easy way to lose an LR to me.

No sir, in the list I suggested your melta-bombs and t-hammers will be hitting those preds and LR's on 6's if played correctly.

Now deep striking furioso or libby dreads, that I'd try with the 4-6 pred core.

Deep striking the land raiders in a pod force has some merit, ideally you can locator beacon in the right spot to machine spirit your ap3 str 6 template to wipe squads.

Doesn't make it any less silly though, heh.

Well, not that there is anything silly about 12 death company running out of a land raider you just pinpointed right in the center of the enemy line.

Two questions for those in the know, do BA assault squads have access to razorbacks and what its the fast vehicle tax on a standard pred?

dear Lord

this is utterly a stupid and senseless codex. Know what ? We should just dump GW and get to other game makers that are far better.

Dammit, this CODEX is awesome... AWESOME. Too frigging awesome to be true. It destroys the Blood Angels background entirely, and makes them a tremendous BIG army with big fancy rules.

Who wouldn't make the BA's now ? I love and hate this codex... sincerely, I'm thinking to move to other rule sets where at least I am not having to chase the biggest codex all the time.

Land Raider deepstriking... yeah right, I want the Thunderhawk firing or at least the model. And the charachters ? Disgusting.

EDIT

let me guess... these charachters may be used also with regular SMs such like the Imperial Fists ?

If it's like this this game is totally screwed.

DOUBLE EDIT

@ Luna

who wouldn't play a normal SM army with this codex ?

From my point of view, having a Vindicator or a Predator that moves 12 and can shoot with all weapons, a Reclusiarch and the tremendous bonus rules... it's enough to play some decent games as Imperial Fists player.

Dammit, why these mutants have all these things ? Bah, I'm dissapointed, really dissapointed.

I can't get over Deep Striking Land Raiders.

That's the kind've thing people say as a joke. There's that Angry Marine picture with 'Angry Marine Drop Pods', and the Pods are just Rhinos falling through the air. This is... worse than that!

And I don't care if it's powerful or whatever - the rules don't matter to me - it's just the concept I find so absurd.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't get over Deep Striking Land Raiders.

That's the kind've thing people say as a joke. There's that Angry Marine picture with 'Angry Marine Drop Pods', and the Pods are just Rhinos falling through the air. This is... worse than that!

And I don't care if it's powerful or whatever - the rules don't matter to me - it's just the concept I find so absurd.

QFT.

Along with dreads ignoring the laws of physics by pulling a Baneblade, and Vindicators chasing bunkers around the battlefield.


Quick edit:
Rulewise they dont strike my as OP, but fluffwise its ugly enough for a YO mama joke.

hey this is GW who cares about background ?!

They just ruin it and destroy everything when they want. This is a big joke, am I overreacting or is it really a **** codex ?

Yo mama so fat she only scatters 1d6.

lolz


Guess i was asking for it ^^.

All of this is just terrible and horrifying

KOS wrote:All of this is just terrible and horrifying

Wait wait... let me guess your next words here...

"And the Sky is Falling!!!" ?

Seriously dude, You haven't even seen the codex, or seen the points values.

I'm not saying the codex isn't powerful, or that it is or isn't broken.

Maybe it's my rose tinted glasses, but seriously guys, this same exact thing goes on with almost every single new codex release. Supposedly they're the most broken, cheesy thing to ever be conceived, then suddenly they're here and they're good, but not ridiculous.

My bet: BA are going to be very good, but they're going to suffer from the same problem that deathwing have. Lots of cool stuff, but to get it you're going to pay through your eye teeth to get it. So, just so we're clear, this chicken little crap is starting to get really old.

Now.. just a thought here but...

Thunderhawk insertion of land raiders and other vehicles directly into combat is not only perfectly fluffy, but a viable combat tactic. Has nobody here seen the thunderhawk that can transport a landraider? Is it so inconcieveable that a *SUPERHEAVY FLYER* that has at least 3 structure points could fly in to a hot combat zone, hover a few yards off the deck, and drop the raider that short distance without damaging it. It seems to me that these vehicles would have been *DESIGNED* to do this from day one, as, ya know, orbital insertion from a battlebarge/strike cruiser via Thunderhawk would have been going on since *The Emperor walked among men*. Maybe there's a sub-section of the Codex Astarties that states "This kind of thing is acceptable, but we don't reccomend it." So most chapters that follow this tome of organization that Gulliman penned decided to not do it, but Blood Angels, being the type of combatants that they are, decided that that was a perfectly acceptable and employ it when fighting a running campaign or when they want to preform a heavy drop strike on a pinpoint location but feel they need more than just marines and dreads to handle the problem.

You can carve out a lot of ideas and options to explain a lot with fluff. Just saying something seems 'asinine' or 'stupid' without taking a few minutes to think about it is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

Just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.

-RT-

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't get over Deep Striking Land Raiders.

That's the kind've thing people say as a joke. There's that Angry Marine picture with 'Angry Marine Drop Pods', and the Pods are just Rhinos falling through the air. This is... worse than that!

And I don't care if it's powerful or whatever - the rules don't matter to me - it's just the concept I find so absurd.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh36/ulhorse/return4078-1.jpg

If you haven't seen this, check it out, deepstriking landraiders are no joke, but I can just tell that when I try to use them, I'm going to scatter 12" on to a lone grot, and role double 1's on the deepstrike mishap and lose 600+ pts worth of memphiston and tooled up sanguinary guard

LunaHound wrote: LunaHound wrote:
Sorry asking an OT question ^^;

What are player's general view on using different chapter's marine to play another chapter's codex?

For example , Black Templar / Ultramarines with blood angel codex?

Honestly, I really wouldn't care if someone used Space Wolves as Chaos Marines, so I'm totaly fine if other non-Blood Angels players wanted to bask in the awsomeness of the new codex.

But slightly more seriously, I have no problems with people using the BA codex for a Non-BA related chapter.

Edit: Typo and complements to Sergant Horse for the link

It is a bit wierd given that if you played Apocalypse and someone used a Thunderhawk Transporter to drop a Land Raider into a hot zone, you'd get huge kudos for doing something that fluffy and cool.

Yet in normal 40k where you can't get superheavy transports, the concept somehow doesn't work? As long as the Raider has a suitable points increase I don't have a problem with the rule - I just think it lacks the visual merit of an apoc game where you can actually see the transport (and by the way I wouldn't want to see this used by Blood Angel players in apoc games - the transport is there for a reason, needs paying for and can be shot down by your AA guns and interceptors. Just saying 'this LR has been magically dropped past your air defence' wouldn't work for me)

$0.02

warhammersupernerd wrote:and role double 1's on the deepstrike mishap and lose 600+ pts worth of memphiston and tooled up sanguinary guard

On a sidenote, Sanguinary Guard can't enter a Landraider, as they're jump troops. And Mephiston probably can't deep strike with a Landraider either, as he's not an Independant Character, so he could only deepstrike in one if he has the option to take a dedicated transport, but he'd be the sole occupant if that was the case.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:It is a bit wierd given that if you played Apocalypse and someone used a Thunderhawk Transporter to drop a Land Raider into a hot zone, you'd get huge kudos for doing something that fluffy and cool.

Yet in normal 40k where you can't get superheavy transports, the concept somehow doesn't work? As long as the Raider has a suitable points increase I don't have a problem with the rule - I just think it lacks the visual merit of an apoc game where you can actually see the transport (and by the way I wouldn't want to see this used by Blood Angel players in apoc games - the transport is there for a reason, needs paying for and can be shot down by your AA guns and interceptors. Just saying 'this LR has been magically dropped past your air defence' wouldn't work for me)

It's pretty much the same thing with jump infantry such as Assault Marines; when they deepstrike, they jump from a low flying transport. It's not like they deep strike through atmospheric entry. Not exactly a never done before concept.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:It is a bit wierd given that if you played Apocalypse and someone used a Thunderhawk Transporter to drop a Land Raider into a hot zone, you'd get huge kudos for doing something that fluffy and cool.

Yet in normal 40k where you can't get superheavy transports, the concept somehow doesn't work? As long as the Raider has a suitable points increase I don't have a problem with the rule - I just think it lacks the visual merit of an apoc game where you can actually see the transport (and by the way I wouldn't want to see this used by Blood Angel players in apoc games - the transport is there for a reason, needs paying for and can be shot down by your AA guns and interceptors. Just saying 'this LR has been magically dropped past your air defence' wouldn't work for me)

$0.02

Well the problem is a LR hot dropping costs nothing extra. It simply does, it simply gets past your AA defense.

The other problem is the fluff, a LR hot drop would require the Thunderhawk to hover a few meters off the ground. Ample time for me to shoot it down. But this can be done with pretty much any vehicle!

What we will see in 40k, a locator beacon for no scatter (who in his right mind would like to have his 500+ points die because they scatter on some lonely grot?) and it hits without you doing anything, or even seeing that thunderhawk.

My explanation: Since it is mention in the fluff that it can be only done with landraiders, because of their sturdiness, it hints at a hot drop mroe akin to a bomb drop. Cause how is a Land raider appearing so quickly on the battlefield without the enemy knowing ^^.


Now if you have LRs hot dropping, well have to get all Eldar and DE vehicles hot dropping too, cause they antigrav and have this fluffwiese listed, wont happen cause 40k is still written by GW.


My gripe is not the rules, but that the fluff is OTT.......

Redemption wrote:

warhammersupernerd wrote:and role double 1's on the deepstrike mishap and lose 600+ pts worth of memphiston and tooled up sanguinary guard

On a sidenote, Sanguinary Guard can't enter a Landraider, as they're jump troops. And Mephiston probably can't deep strike with a Landraider either, as he's not an Independant Character, so he could only deepstrike in one if he has the option to take a dedicated transport, but he'd be the sole occupant if that was the case.

Forgot about that, thanks! But my point being, my luck with deepstriking means I won't be hinging any plans on deepstriking landraiders, but it would be funny if that happend.

Red__Thirst wrote:

KOS wrote:All of this is just terrible and horrifying

Wait wait... let me guess your next words here...

"And the Sky is Falling!!!" ?

The Sky is already falling since they are making this monstruosity

Seriously dude, You haven't even seen the codex, or seen the points values.

I'm not saying the codex isn't powerful, or that it is or isn't broken.

Maybe it's my rose tinted glasses, but seriously guys, this same exact thing goes on with almost every single new codex release. Supposedly they're the most broken, cheesy thing to ever be conceived, then suddenly they're here and they're good, but not ridiculous.

They are stupid not ridicoulous. This codex if it's how they are telling us is DEEPLY BROKEN. I have not moaned when the Space Wolves came out nor the Tyranids nor the Imperial Guard. But this one is utterly STUPID.

You can't do things like these... this means just to sell more things, different models and breaking apart the background of a chapter. First with Space Hulk delicatessen and now with this thing that is coming out.

I'm FED UP. I can't and I shouldn't have the need to use the BA codex to use the Imperial Fists in a decent way, but there it is.

Why do they have all these bonuses ? What "vanilla" Marines should have then to use them properly still ?

My bet: BA are going to be very good, but they're going to suffer from the same problem that deathwing have. Lots of cool stuff, but to get it you're going to pay through your eye teeth to get it. So, just so we're clear, this chicken little crap is starting to get really old.

Deathwing is cool as Ravenwing but useless. Too less models, crap rules since all DAs special rules now are all in the vanilla SMs of the 5th Edition... come on.

Now.. just a thought here but...

Thunderhawk insertion of land raiders and other vehicles directly into combat is not only perfectly fluffy, but a viable combat tactic. Has nobody here seen the thunderhawk that can transport a landraider? Is it so inconcieveable that a *SUPERHEAVY FLYER* that has at least 3 structure points could fly in to a hot combat zone, hover a few yards off the deck, and drop the raider that short distance without damaging it. It seems to me that these vehicles would have been *DESIGNED* to do this from day one, as, ya know, orbital insertion from a battlebarge/strike cruiser via Thunderhawk would have been going on since *The Emperor walked among men*. Maybe there's a sub-section of the Codex Astarties that states "This kind of thing is acceptable, but we don't reccomend it." So most chapters that follow this tome of organization that Gulliman penned decided to not do it, but Blood Angels, being the type of combatants that they are, decided that that was a perfectly acceptable and employ it when fighting a running campaign or when they want to preform a heavy drop strike on a pinpoint location but feel they need more than just marines and dreads to handle the problem.

We are talking about the fact that a Thunderhawk should get over an enemy line, hover (maybe) open its hatch and permit a Land Raider to get out... are we joking ? If I'd be the enemy commander I'd shoot the damned airplane to dust with everything I have! This is broken! And if there is a thunderhawk ... why can't I use it to hit the enemy ? Are they too much concentated on opening the hatch or to release the grasps ?

Land Raider with hover engines ? Naaa come on everything is ok except this thing, it's exagerated because they had NO IDEAS.

You can carve out a lot of ideas and options to explain a lot with fluff. Just saying something seems 'asinine' or 'stupid' without taking a few minutes to think about it is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

I've thought about it, and from a tactical and realistic view (also for the 40k) it's DUMB.

Calm the feth down, KOS. Almost everyone who has seen the codex say that the really good stuff is expensive, or is clustering around the same FOC slots, or is hampered by other restrictions (the hardest characters aren't even ICs, par example). It'll be like SW or Tyranids - people will really have to spend some effort building effective lists and you can't take all the cool stuff at once.

As for fluff sillyness... Didn't you know that BA can reroll their fluff?

In all seriousness, I think that the viable lists from this codex will play so differently from vanilla SM that it actually justifies publishing it. Fast rhinos that you still can't assault out of and DC that you can't control with chaplains put up some interesting tactical dilemmas.

I was looking over at the B&C and someone noted that the Decent of Angels (1D6 scatter on deep strike) only applies to Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines (Dante's no scatter is different again).

Someone then looked up the Jump Pack entry and the Jump Pack entry noted that ANYTHING that has a Jump Pack has the Decent of Angels special rule.

If true, this has interesting applications on certain units, particularly Vanguard Veterans with Heroic Intervention.

Can anyone confirm?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't get over Deep Striking Land Raiders.

That's the kind've thing people say as a joke. There's that Angry Marine picture with 'Angry Marine Drop Pods', and the Pods are just Rhinos falling through the air. This is... worse than that!

And I don't care if it's powerful or whatever - the rules don't matter to me - it's just the concept I find so absurd.

Word.

Now, I need to go convert some space wolves riding giant wolves........

Despite my cynicism about GW continuously releasing space marines, I have to say the Blood Angels look like an excellent release. Loving the fluff (bar deep striking land raiders) the miniatures and the playstyle. Looks all very good to me. Blood Angels were my first chapter and I've liked them since second edition, I thought third edition really blanded them up so I'm happy to see them come back as something unique.
Not saying I'll start playing as them again, but definitely loving the new kits and characters. Might have to get Astaroth for old times sake.

Initially I noticed the awesome awesome price of las/plas razorbacks with assault marines inside.

Then I saw that Baal Preds are fast attack....

3 Predators is really pushing it in my opinion. Nevermind the fact that you can stir in LR's or AV13 dreads into the mix.

The codex, the more I read it, seems a bit overpowered and at first glance the strongest builds seem in NO way fluffy.






....I'm in.

Lurker

I saw the codex on Friday and was having this discussion with a redshirt. The Jetpacks provide any unit equppied with them the "Descent of Angels" SR. So any unit with a jump pack, or that can be equipped with a jump pack has the 1D6 scatter. Jumppacks might actually become tactically viable. not super competitive. Actually the red shirt played a MECH marine list, with Dante and 40 sanguine guard and 2 preds, and managed a very hard hitting game. ended in a draw. And thats not remotely the most competitive build out there.

The_0perator wrote:Lurker

I saw the codex on Friday and was having this discussion with a redshirt. The Jetpacks provide any unit equppied with them the "Descent of Angels" SR. So any unit with a jump pack, or that can be equipped with a jump pack has the 1D6 scatter. Jumppacks might actually become tactically viable. not super competitive. Actually the red shirt played a MECH marine list, with Dante and 40 sanguine guard and 2 preds, and managed a very hard hitting game. ended in a draw. And thats not remotely the most competitive build out there.

Awesome news.
Thanks Operator.


I thought Sanguine Guard were 5men to a sqaud, and thus with Dante the max you could take would be 30?
Or were you just describing in brief rather than providing accurate details?
???

From what I understand Dante allows for Sanguine Guard as troops. from what I understand he had 40 Dudes... didint seem the game, just recieved a play by play after the game from the redshirt and the guy he played. Lol i didint have time to go to in depth with the codex.... i rely on Dakka members for that. All I can say with 100% certainty is DSR, for all Jetpack units. Vanguard Vets will actually be fun to use.

does anyone know Furioso Librarian's stats for BS,I and A??

i only understood it has WS6..

Lurker wrote:
I thought Sanguine Guard were 5men to a sqaud, and thus with Dante the max you could take would be 30?
Or were you just describing in brief rather than providing accurate details?
???

I guess if Dante allows for Sanguine Guard to be taken as troops, that doesn't necessarily mean they can't be taken as elites as well. So 3 as elites and 6 as troops allows for a max of 45 theoretically.

The Watcher in the Dark wrote:

Lurker wrote:
I thought Sanguine Guard were 5men to a sqaud, and thus with Dante the max you could take would be 30?
Or were you just describing in brief rather than providing accurate details?
???

I guess if Dante allows for Sanguine Guard to be taken as troops, that doesn't necessarily mean they can't be taken as elites as well. So 3 as elites and 6 as troops allows for a max of 45 theoretically.

But at what cost?! WHAT COST?!?

I dont know what points they were playing at.... lol lets say 1800...but really who cares that would be amazing to field and play...

Duh!
Thanks for that.
I think I decided to give up thinking for a while!

The_0perator wrote:Lurker

I saw the codex on Friday and was having this discussion with a redshirt. The Jetpacks provide any unit equppied with them the "Descent of Angels" SR. So any unit with a jump pack, or that can be equipped with a jump pack has the 1D6 scatter. Jumppacks might actually become tactically viable. not super competitive. Actually the red shirt played a MECH marine list, with Dante and 40 sanguine guard and 2 preds, and managed a very hard hitting game. ended in a draw. And thats not remotely the most competitive build out there.

where did he see that? most units with a jetpack have DoA, but Vanguard don't and there is no entry saying giving them a jumpack gives it to them

It's in the JUMPACK entry, in the Wargear/Armoury section...

I imagine it says something to the effect that 'Any model equipped with a jumpack has the DOA special rule'.

You won't find it in the entry for each different type of troop (I.E. Vanguard, Honor Guard) because it won't be there.

dietrich wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't get over Deep Striking Land Raiders.

That's the kind've thing people say as a joke. There's that Angry Marine picture with 'Angry Marine Drop Pods', and the Pods are just Rhinos falling through the air. This is... worse than that!

And I don't care if it's powerful or whatever - the rules don't matter to me - it's just the concept I find so absurd.

Word.

Now, I need to go convert some space wolves riding giant wolves........

I see what you did there

Kveldulv wrote:

The Watcher in the Dark wrote:

Lurker wrote:
I thought Sanguine Guard were 5men to a sqaud, and thus with Dante the max you could take would be 30?
Or were you just describing in brief rather than providing accurate details?
???

I guess if Dante allows for Sanguine Guard to be taken as troops, that doesn't necessarily mean they can't be taken as elites as well. So 3 as elites and 6 as troops allows for a max of 45 theoretically.

But at what cost?! WHAT COST?!?

Don't get me wrong... just because you can theoretically do something does not mean you should. After all, it's possible to field a Tyranid army consisting of one Prime and 81 bases of Rippers and Sky-slashers... would be amusing though

Lurker wrote:It's in the JUMPACK entry, in the Wargear/Armoury section...

I imagine it says something to the effect that 'Any model equipped with a jumpack has the DOA special rule'.

You won't find it in the entry for each different type of troop (I.E. Vanguard, Honor Guard) because it won't be there.

wow good eye. thats awesome, guess ill be taking some deep striking vanguard afterall!

I'm withholding judgement until I see point values on everything. I'm a little concerned (as I always am when a new Marine codex is released) that it does remove the Vanilla niche. If Blood Angel tacticals have combat squads, heavy weapons in tacticals, Sternguard, and other "Vanilla" things, then I wonder what the balancing factor is. The only thing I've seen so far is the "loss" of the TFC and slightly more expensive TH/SS Termies.

Depending on points, I think Mechanized (Pred/Dread spam) BA is going to be nasty. What Marine player doesn't want Predators that can move and shoot, Razorbacks/Vindicators that can move 12" and fire, Dreadnoughts that can actually chew threw squads fairly quickly, and a flying LR?

its not that big a deal though, Rhinos are 20 points more expensive, Vindis are 30 pts more and the rest are a mix from 5-15 points more


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh..and the Baal Predator has the Scouts rule. Scout move 18", then move twelve, firestorm the enemy line......times 3

Personally, I love codex creep. Can't wait for my Black Templars to get a codex, after seeing what the Blood Angels got

Sergeant Horse wrote:its not that big a deal though, Rhinos are 20 points more expensive, Vindis are 30 pts more and the rest are a mix from 5-15 points more


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh..and the Baal Predator has the Scouts rule. Scout move 18", then move twelve, firestorm the enemy line......times 3

predators?? +30? +20?

BLOOD ANGELS LIST #1 THAT JUST LOOKS WRONG

HQ

Reclusiarch-Crozius, Rozarius, BP, Melta bombs

ELITE

3x Sanguinary Priests-2 w/Power Weapon

TROOPS

5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma

FAST ATTACK

Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

-1850 even


So, We've got troops with Furious charge and Feel No Pain. We've also got a character closeby that can join whatever unit he likes so as to make that unit RR hits AND wounds in CC as well. Two power Weapons per unit on average. Each unit also features 2 Melta Weapons for heavy tank busting.

We've also got 10 fast vehicles that are all very shooty. Horde/mech/MC at range? ....no problem. If you're able to close with this list you're rewarded by getting charged by the EXCELLENT TROOPS.

Just for the record thats also 4 fast vehicles that can take objectives.

Fair? Seems a bit overgood to me.

The thought that came to me is that gets you into point black with Melta weapons real quick.

Chaplain only allows re-rolls to wound when joined to a DC squad.

And it's no tougher than one of my Space Wolf lists or a lot of the mech guard running round out there.

It would be a tough list but I think the codex itself is very well balanced.

Yup... pretty much what I'm thinking. What makes it even better is that you're not cracking those Razorbacks in CC easily as they can move and shoot.

Move + Shoot razorbacks are nice. This list would be a good match up against my mech vets. It isn't OTT though.

The other Though was is I am so glad I went with Power Fist for my Puppies

Deadshane1 wrote:I'm in.

I only need to buy 3 Baal Predators and I can run my DIY Marines as SM, SW and then BA. The variety is fantastic.

What you said about Razorbacks is cool, and initially I hadn't though of that. 100 points for 5 Assault Marines but with a 35 point discount towards the transport once they drop their jump packs is very nice. That means they actually get a las/plas Razorback and five men for 140 points. I'm not yet sure what the points increase for OCE for Razorbacks is, but if it's 15 points it's still tolerable in this case (total 155 points before buying special weapons). In any case, the best part about this is that BA can get a few relatively cheap, mechanised scoring units to support the 6 Predators and 3 Furioso Librarians I already love the look of my 3 Predators (when I'm not using 18 Long Fangs). Six Predators all lined up will be a sight to behold

Therion wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:I'm in.

I only need to buy 3 Baal Predators and I can run my DIY Marines as SM, SW and then BA. The variety is fantastic.

What you said about Razorbacks is cool, and initially I hadn't though of that. 100 points for 5 Assault Marines but with a 35 point discount towards the transport once they drop their jump packs is very nice. That means they actually get a las/plas Razorback and five men for 140 points. I'm not yet sure what the points increase for OCE for Razorbacks is, but if it's 15 points it's still tolerable in this case (total 155 points before buying special weapons). In any case, the best part about this is that BA can get a few relatively cheap, mechanised scoring units to support the 6 Predators and 3 Furioso Librarians I already love the look of my 3 Predators (when I'm not using 18 Long Fangs). Six Predators all lined up will be a sight to behold

Razorbacks are a SM power weapon (15pts ) more expensive to pay for the "Fast" characteristic.


On the side, I may be opening myself to a deluge of personal e-mails, but if you have a question about POINT COSTS about any particular unit thats simply nagging at you that you need to know....I've got the Army List at work today, not the codex...just the complete army list at the back of the book. Dont ask me for the complete list but if you PM me asking how much HB sponsons are on Preds...I'll try to get directly back to you.

So I understand that every unit with jump pack has "Descent of Angels".That is great,just great.to rereol reserves and just scatter 1 d6 + the Vanguard are cheapper,Assault squads are as per C: SM.. great!

Deadshane1 wrote:BLOOD ANGELS LIST #1 THAT JUST LOOKS WRONG

HQ

Reclusiarch-Crozius, Rozarius, BP, Melta bombs

ELITE

3x Sanguinary Priests-2 w/Power Weapon

TROOPS

5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma

FAST ATTACK

Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

-1850 even


So, We've got troops with Furious charge and Feel No Pain. We've also got a character closeby that can join whatever unit he likes so as to make that unit RR hits AND wounds in CC as well. Two power Weapons per unit on average. Each unit also features 2 Melta Weapons for heavy tank busting.

We've also got 10 fast vehicles that are all very shooty. Horde/mech/MC at range? ....no problem. If you're able to close with this list you're rewarded by getting charged by the EXCELLENT TROOPS.

Just for the record thats also 4 fast vehicles that can take objectives.

Fair? Seems a bit overgood to me.

Fine, you dont think this is broken enough! I'm good enough at maneuvering troops within 6" for a bonus, so why quibble?




HQ

Mephiston, by the way, he's the LORD OF DEATH

ELITE

Sanguinary Priest w/Power Weapon

TROOPS

5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma
5xAssault Marine-1 Infernus pistol; Sgt w/Infernus pistol, Power Weapon; Razorback w/Lascannon, Twin-plasma

FAST ATTACK

Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Baal Predator- Twin Assault Cannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter
Predator- Autocannon, 2xHeavy Bolter

-1850 even

BAM! Broken!

I think the Razors are sort of a weak link. They provide targets for S5, S6 and S7 weapons that would otherwise be largely ineffective. I also think the heavy support Predators should have lascannon sponsons for max mobile ownage. How about Land Raiders as troop transports?

I just want to know if assault squads can take a melta gun? Or is their only option the flamer pistols, and melta pistols?

Thanks.

I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but is there wording in there that suggests that Mephiston is in fact an IC?

Wildeyedjester wrote:I just want to know if assault squads can take a melta gun? Or is their only option the flamer pistols, and melta pistols?

Thanks.

they can take one melta gun per 5 guys, same as the other options. 10 points per melta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but is there wording in there that suggests that Mephiston is in fact an IC?

In the codex, he is NOT an IC.

Think of him as a dinky hive tyrant with a small base that gets cover REALLY easily!

nope. unless it gets FAQED, he doesnt have the IC rule.

and assaults get a melta gun for every 5 assault marines

nope. unless it gets FAQED, he doesnt have the IC rule.

Assuming anything else than Mephiston not having IC status being intentional is totally deluded. He isn't the first character that doesn't have IC status, or even the second, or even the third. He's a unit of his own. Maybe he doesn't like the guys who he fights with or maybe they don't like him. Either way he's on his own.

Therion wrote:I think the Razors are sort of a weak link. They provide targets for S5, S6 and S7 weapons that would otherwise be largely ineffective. I also think the heavy support Predators should have lascannon sponsons for max mobile ownage. How about Land Raiders as troop transports?

Shoot at the Razors? Fine, they could be taking cover behind the tougher preds.

Preds up front with AV 13, Razors in the back with AV11 & 4+ cover. Not THAT weak of a link.

Besides, they provide a REALLY nice resource against Tyranid MC's. Moving Lascannon/Plasma fire.

EDIT: I sort of think people would be concentrating around getting to the sides of the predators which are moving and blasting. If they shoot at the Razors...so much the better IMHO. Leave the Preds to do their work.

Yeah... Preds can actually serve as a spearhead now that they can move and shoot.

Gornall wrote:Yeah... Preds can actually serve as a spearhead now that they can move and shoot.

I've no doubt it can work, but at 2K points you could alternatively fit 3 Land Raiders and 6 Predators into the same list, two of the LR mounted AM squads being lead by Sanguinary Priests and one by a Librarian. Anyway, just toying around with the armoured company idea. A BA version of the Maximum Overdrive SW might be perfectly viable too. BA pay a tad more for everything and therefore have slightly less firepower but are a lot more mobile.

Originally I was sort of joking with that list...I think I'm going to build it though.

Some crazy conversions coming....these are going to be my "Star Trek" marines. Thats a sh%t ton of shuttlecraft to convert.

(Infernus Pistols make GREAT phasers BTW)

I cant wait for the ard boyz AV13+ wall O' doom

KOS wrote:We are talking about the fact that a Thunderhawk should get over an enemy line, hover (maybe) open its hatch and permit a Land Raider to get out... are we joking ?

The Thunderhawk variant that transports tanks has cradles for them underneath. No hatch opening... they can just swing in low and release the tank on the way over. Thusly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw&feature=related

Or somthing like this

Yea, if I saw my enemy flying that huge plane full of SOMETHING towards the battle lines, I would'nt bother to shoot at it with my anti-tank weapon either....you'd never hit. Whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That pic/movie really dont have any relevance. That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

Honestly, this really doesn't 'break canon' for me. From reading about it, I assume standard procedure is to drop the Land Raiders a bit further away from active fighting so the procedure can be done with more care. The BA are jsut a bit bolder and maybe a bitmore skilled, and willing to take the chance.

The risk is kind of like Plasma weapons. If plasma weapons overheated as often as they do in the game during routine use, even the Imperium might think twice about issuing them as few would get through range time without being cooked... But the 'Gets Hot!' rule represents battlefield use where the weapon may have been dragged through mud and debris, subjected to shocks, and warnings may be disregarded because it's either take a chance or get eaten by that big huge monster.

The drop Land Raiders are similar. A 'normal' drop behind lines is presumably very reliable, but a battlefield drop has such risks (the Deepstrike rules or worse) that only the BA have pilots who are willing to do it and train to do so.

I cannot wait until the new codex comes out... turns out to be not nearly as "cheese" and "OP" as a lot of posters have been saying... and have a few crows ready to hand out.

HOw about a suspension of belief. We're ok with people being able to kill with their minds, Demons taking over others bodies, but dropping a tank into the front lines is just waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy over the top and makes no sense what so ever. :(

jbunny wrote:HOw about a suspension of belief. We're ok with people being able to kill with their minds, Demons taking over others bodies, but dropping a tank into the front lines is just waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy over the top and makes no sense what so ever. :(

I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop , it has nothing to do with idea of psychers and demons existing in the 40k universe.

Sort of like saying if you throw turtle across the room will it survive or not.

Deadshane1 wrote: That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

That's because modern aircraft aren't shielded by metre-thick Madeupiumite armour and faith in an undying psychic deity, and piloted by frothing loonies with a penchant for high collars and chainsaws...




On an unrelated note, given the Blood Angels' status as, you know, not-quite-vampires, I wonder how many people would be mortally offended by an army painted up in sparkly paint...

LunaHound wrote:

jbunny wrote:HOw about a suspension of belief. We're ok with people being able to kill with their minds, Demons taking over others bodies, but dropping a tank into the front lines is just waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy over the top and makes no sense what so ever. :(

I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop , it has nothing to do with idea of psychers and demons existing in the 40k universe.

Sort of like saying if you throw turtle across the room will it survive or not.

What's most plausible in the real word? Dropping a tank out the back of a plane at decent speeds or a psycher killing people with a look? Given the 30000 years to advance technology I think they can come up with a way to rapidly insert tanks into hte front line.

insaniak wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

That's because modern aircraft aren't shielded by metre-thick Madeupiumite armour and faith in an undying psychic deity, and piloted by frothing loonies with a penchant for high collars and chainsaws...




On an unrelated note, given the Blood Angels' status as, you know, not-quite-vampires, I wonder how many people would be mortally offended by an army painted up in sparkly paint...

I doubt an actual thunderhawk would HURRY to a hot zone. They may be equipped to do so, but the chapter mourns the loss of a single suit of terminator armour. Don't you think that T-hawks would be an even greater loss?

Just because we CAN do something, doesnt mean that we MUST do something.

I'm betting thunderhawks would only drop a LR in the middle of a hot zone in the direst of circumstances...otherwise if possible, it would be a discreet distance away.

Essentially, the idea is dumb, however you slice it.

insaniak wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

That's because modern aircraft aren't shielded by metre-thick Madeupiumite armour and faith in an undying psychic deity, and piloted by frothing loonies with a penchant for high collars and chainsaws...




On an unrelated note, given the Blood Angels' status as, you know, not-quite-vampires, I wonder how many people would be mortally offended by an army painted up in sparkly paint...

No, no, no. Its Unobtanium.

I don't think it matters, since dropping in Land Raiders is probably a bad idea anyway. Consider that Terminators and the like can already Deep Strike, and dropping an LR in with them as well is just asking to eat melta. Further, LRs are very, very large and thus nonideal for deep strikes anyway. It's possible someone will devise a brilliant new technique to make this rule effective, but honestly I don't see how it could really be used efficiently.

Think about the LR deep striking in the back yard of a Gaurd Blob army, It has a hard enough time getting all the models ant the table anyways

Deadshane1 wrote: They may be equipped to do so, but the chapter mourns the loss of a single suit of terminator armour. Don't you think that T-hawks would be an even greater loss?

Not really, no.

Terminator armour is special, and very difficult to replace (I think the older fluff actually said it couldn't still be made). Thunderhawks are just vehicles.

I was thinking more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sybeGUHDzg
at 2:18 is the image running through my head when I think about Deep Striking Land Raiders.

insaniak wrote:On an unrelated note, given the Blood Angels' status as, you know, not-quite-vampires, I wonder how many people would be mortally offended by an army painted up in sparkly paint...

You know, this might just have inspired me to take up the new Codex just to make a BA army with sparkly paint. I just wanna see my opponents groan in agony as they get beaten by an army of Twilight vampires.

Hrm...what kinda paint to use?

Thanks for cheering me up. I now know, no matter how bad things are, there are always people who worry about a game.

LunaHound wrote:What are player's general view on using different chapter's marine to play another chapter's codex?

For example , Black Templar / Ultramarines with blood angel codex?

If it's a canonical BT / UM army in color and insignia, then I'm not really sold on that.

If it's BT models painted red, then, by all means, go ahead and play as BA.

If it's a DIY army, then no problem whatsoever.

Blood Angles=Vampires
Space Wolves=Werewolves
DH/WH=Mages
Necron=Mummy
Changlings=Eldar

What are we playing WoD now

LunaHound wrote:I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop ,

Except, the LR is AV14 all around - it's the toughest thing in the game short of a Monolith (which also DS, IIRC).

So what's the problem again?

insaniak wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: They may be equipped to do so, but the chapter mourns the loss of a single suit of terminator armour. Don't you think that T-hawks would be an even greater loss?

Not really, no.

Terminator armour is special, and very difficult to replace (I think the older fluff actually said it couldn't still be made). Thunderhawks are just vehicles.

There's no such thing as "just Vehicles" in the imperium. Many of the STC's have been lost and those vehicles cannot be replaced. Rhino's are one of the few that CAN be replaced....I'm not sure I've seen any fluff saying that chapters crank out Thunderhawks like crayola pumps out crayons.

Thanatos73 wrote:I was thinking more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sybeGUHDzg
at 2:18 is the image running through my head when I think about Deep Striking Land Raiders.

Good example. I was also thinking of the movie Aliens when the lander swooped in long enough for the APC to disembark before dusting-off. IIRC, it didn't even touch the ground.

LunaHound wrote:I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop ,

If a 4th edition IG guardsman could survive the drop, why couldn't a Land Raider?

The army today can do it with an variety of large vehicles, so I don't see why not a LR.

As said before, I wouldn't do it normally, as that is a pretty big model. Your chances of missing and getting a mishap are pretty high, if you try to land anywhere close to impassable terrain or enemy models.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop ,

Except, the LR is AV14 all around - it's the toughest thing in the game short of a Monolith (which also DS, IIRC).

So what's the problem again?

Monoliths teleport. Theres no force of impact.

The Star Wars vid is cool, but thats how you drop off stuff outside the enemy AT firing range. Safe and easy.

DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

No its just my suspspension of belief that gets crushed under the LR treads. Rulewise i wish for LRs in front of my 4melat Havocs to appear .

I've updated the first post with a really good summary. Not mine, though.

Voronesh wrote:DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

Yeah, because the rest of your army probably won't have anything better to do than watch the skies for a transport ship from somewhere. Who cares about the army that's rushing towards you, or are already upon you, on the ground?

where are the pictures/drawings of the stormraven that are supposedly floating around. I have to see what this thing looks like.

And transports with holy battletanks strapped to them always carry an insignificant amount of noname troops.

Uhh right.....

Ever seen what a single AA Missile does to your transport? Not a big allocation of force in my eyes. If my DIY heretic chapter is fighting BA which would be known for such shenanigans id be bringing firepower for something like that or redivert my Obliterators.

We can keep at this arguement forever, but i still think that playing it safe with a Thawk is not the way to represent a DS LR. Cause that would allow me to shoot it down crushing a significant amount of troops.

Hot dropping it out of a zoomzoom Thawk would not endanger the Thawk, but seriously hurt the LR....

Show me the option that does not lead to utter failure. Fluffwise. I like the rulesidea.

Droppods with Locator beacons and then guide em in. Seems cool, i just consider DS LR as args as Dreadnoughts reeling in Baneblades. Or a Reaver Titan right. Reaver titan stomp. Oops.

Seregon wrote:

Voronesh wrote:DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

Yeah, because the rest of your army probably won't have anything better to do than watch the skies for a transport ship from somewhere. Who cares about the army that's rushing towards you, or are already upon you, on the ground?

They already had rules for dropping in land raiders. They involved buying the thunderhawk, flying onto the table, and dropping the land raider. A thunderhawk doesn't just fly over and let go of the tank, and it has less armor than the thing that it's transporting. This is 38 thousand years in the future so I'm sure they have the tech to do it, but it's dumb. They also should have the tech to accurately put a lance shot from a space ship on every enemy soldier they want to kill in seconds. There's suspension of disbelief and then there is stupid. This is stupid. It is stupid you could suspend your disbelief for, but that just means your suspending disbelief for a stupid thing.

If a landraider has an over 75% chance to survive the best long ranged weapon (Tau Rail Gun) in the game why not just drop it from a little higher up with some anti-grav. The T-Hawk swoops over the field from a significant height and drop the Landraider w/a counter grav sled. Sled only kicks in once it get's to a certain height (think Star Trek movie but with anti-grav). The scatter is the effect of retards trying to shoot the dropping LR and nudging it to the side like

Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

I guess 5th ed removed peoples abstract thinking abilities as well as abstract rules!

On another note, Mephiston is actually better than other Y6 models simply by the fact that he can ride in transports and be hidden by squads infront.. I think people will change their tune when a non-MC hits them with 7 S10 attacks that reroll hits and possibly wounds at I7

I find the flying brick from space to be not as ridiculous as the overcharged seige engine for busting speedy bunkers or anything at all to do with the librarian dread (I not only break internal 40k fluff but my reaver titan dragging magna-grapple is comical in the extreme) but I still find it silly.

It's not really a case of applying strict logic as it is suspension of disbelief. For some reason Space Marines dropping specialised pods from space into the enemy just seems cool and I have no issue with it. But them dropping their main battle tanks directly onto the enemy's position just seems silly.

I have a similar problem with the magna-grapple. Its an absolutely ridiculous idea (lets drag tanks closer!) that would work fine if it was an orky weapon but as a marine weapon we kind of expect it to make more sense.

I have yet to read it but from early reports in my opinion this is the first bad codex GW have released since daemons. Not because I think it is OP (although some stuff seems a little extreme at first glance and viewed in isolation i.e. if vanguard get heroic intervention AND descent of angels, the flying libby dread with his "blood talons", the "just like jaws but better against all targets except low init multi-wound creatures" power, mephiston and the ability to have all your troops sporting FnP and Furious Charge for about 150pts. Presumably these will be pointed appropriately or require compromises in list design to use) but because;

some of the fluff is just silly

the most powerful builds that leap out do not back up the fluff. Jump packs? Death Company? Sod em. BA are all about preds, dreads, razors and raiders.

it treads all over the design space of other chapters rather than giving the BA a decent niche (BT are the land raider based army? Not anymore.)

rules that ae simply unfun for your opponent (principally dante)

I prefer, in every way, that fandex that came out.

Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack
Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.
Shadow of the Primarch - Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.
Hits at S6 in Close Combat and forces Invulnerable Saves to be re-rolled
Removes 0-1 restriction on Death Company

This guy is so money.. he's so money he doesn't even know it.

Awesome stats and an awesome fig. /drool

Too bad I'll have to hack him up to make a new Mephiston :(

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I find the flying brick from space to be not as ridiculous as the overcharged seige engine for busting speedy bunkers or anything at all to do with the librarian dread (I not only break internal 40k fluff but my reaver titan dragging magna-grapple is comical in the extreme) but I still find it silly.

It's not really a case of applying strict logic as it is suspension of disbelief. For some reason Space Marines dropping specialised pods from space into the enemy just seems cool and I have no issue with it. But them dropping their main battle tanks directly onto the enemy's position just seems silly.

I have a similar problem with the magna-grapple. Its an absolutely ridiculous idea (lets drag tanks closer!) that would work fine if it was an orky weapon but as a marine weapon we kind of expect it to make more sense.

I have yet to read it but from early reports in my opinion this is the first bad codex GW have released since daemons. Not because I think it is OP (although some stuff seems a little extreme at first glance and viewed in isolation i.e. if vanguard get heroic intervention AND descent of angels, the flying libby dread with his "blood talons", the "just like jaws but better against all targets except low init multi-wound creatures" power, mephiston and the ability to have all your troops sporting FnP and Furious Charge for about 150pts. Presumably these will be pointed appropriately or require compromises in list design to use) but because;

some of the fluff is just silly

the most powerful builds that leap out do not back up the fluff. Jump packs? Death Company? Sod em. BA are all about preds, dreads, razors and raiders.

it treads all over the design space of other chapters rather than giving the BA a decent niche (BT are the land raider based army? Not anymore.)

rules that ae simply unfun for your opponent (principally dante)

I prefer, in every way, that fandex that came out.

Agreed; this appears to be stepping on the BT schtick here.....I don't have a problem with DS LR's as it would stand to reason that other marine chapters do this as well.
I suppose that according to the BA new fluff addition is that maybe they are more specialized in this sort of operation.

Having assault squads with access to Razorbacks and all still seems to me to be a serious encroachment on the Black Templars along with the LR's as dedicated transports for most units.

I now have to wonder what the Black Templars will be like in their new release......

Can anyone confirm for me if Death Co can take a Land Raider as a deticated transport?

Also I saw someone else ask this question but I dont know if it got answered: Do Chaplians still allow us to actually control DC, or is DC going to be running all over the place like the World Eaters from the previous CSM codex?

Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

It's the first real abstraction to be asked for. Most other deep strike forms simply involve teleportation, parachutes, or having THE MODEL PERFORMING THE DEEP STRIKE EXIST ON THE TABLE (ala land speeder storm, raiders, valkyries, etc).

I don't see the imperial guard getting to deep strike leman russes despite the valkyrie being capable of transporting them. I don't see battlewagons getting dropped from roks and I don't see orks getting shot out of canons. It's the second largest tank in the game next to the monolith, and no other space marine book can do this. People are bitching because it's silly.

So basically blood angels pay more points to get fast vehicles and safer deep striking.

I hope everyone who plays blood angels deep strikes as many raiders as possible. Assuming you cant assault out of it when it lands that puts you safely in my melta range.

I didnt check, but im assuming blood angels still get 3+ invuln hammer terminators. If so, I am certainly going to buy dante and attach his dumbass to 10 of those next time i play planetstrike.

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

Aren't Assault Marines assumed to be jumping out of Thunderhawks when they Deep Strike?

Fetterkey wrote:Aren't Assault Marines assumed to be jumping out of Thunderhawks when they Deep Strike?

From high altitude, and they control their descent using the giant rocket packs attached to them. To drop a land raider the thunderhawk would practically have to land, which is incredibly dangerous. Hence why it's never done in the fluff (getting shot down means the loss of both the thunderhawk and the land raider and everyone inside).

I kind of assume that Land Raiders have some kind of strap-on rockets or whatever that slow their descent. We'll have to see what the fluff says.

I don't think anything would have to near land to deploy a raider. I could see needing to get low enough to not drop it from more than it's own height. But insertion could be very swift. I don't think you would be dropping raiders next to AA platforms (for fluff sake, maybe it would work in game).

I'm just going to toss my land raider on the table and see where it lands... why bother rolling dice since we are going for such realism in our 40k games.

jabbakahut wrote:I don't think anything would have to near land to deploy a raider. I could see needing to get low enough to not drop it from more than it's own height. But insertion could be very swift. I don't think you would be dropping raiders next to AA platforms (for fluff sake, maybe it would work in game).

That makes perfect sense.

Problem is in 40k any good AT weapon can be turned into an AA weapon at this point ^^.

Yeah its kinda like a nerd battle right now, who believes it works and who doesnt. I still think you dont wanna do it in a hot zone.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

You know 40k has invisible grav-chute tech, right? Just look at every single 4ed IG army

Daggermaw wrote:where are the pictures/drawings of the stormraven that are supposedly floating around. I have to see what this thing looks like.

Check page four of codex space wolves.

lord_blackfang wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

You know 40k has invisible grav-chute tech, right? Just look at every single 4ed IG army

You mean like 3rd Ed Orks having bikes that emit smoke hindering enemy shooting, but not their own shooting?

Voronesh wrote:You mean like 3rd Ed Orks having bikes that emit smoke hindering enemy shooting, but not their own shooting?

Well, it not like Orks actually aim while shooting anyway.

Kirasu wrote:Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

I guess 5th ed removed peoples abstract thinking abilities as well as abstract rules!

On another note, Mephiston is actually better than other Y6 models simply by the fact that he can ride in transports and be hidden by squads infront.. I think people will change their tune when a non-MC hits them with 7 S10 attacks that reroll hits and possibly wounds at I7

7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

he has S10, wings and reroll powers... isn't true?

insaniak wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

That's because modern aircraft aren't shielded by metre-thick Madeupiumite armour and faith in an undying psychic deity, and piloted by frothing loonies with a penchant for high collars and chainsaws...

We also have a thing called chaff, it kinda helps save us from heat seaking missiles.

Deadshane1 wrote:
I doubt an actual thunderhawk would HURRY to a hot zone. They may be equipped to do so, but the chapter mourns the loss of a single suit of terminator armour. Don't you think that T-hawks would be an even greater loss?

Just because we CAN do something, doesnt mean that we MUST do something.

I'm betting thunderhawks would only drop a LR in the middle of a hot zone in the direst of circumstances...otherwise if possible, it would be a discreet distance away.

And because terminator suits are so valued, they send them in to space hulks and risk loosing them instead of keeping them in the chapter musuem. The point of that fluff was supposed to emphisise the honor in wearing one of those things, only the chapters best get them.

Same probably applies to thunderhawks dropping Landraiders, the space marines would do it if the battle favoured that tactic, except only the chapters best pilots would get to fly them. And like insaniak said, space marines are very nearly insane

Also, of all the chapters, BA are probably the most eager to go to battle, they leap out of the thunderhawk mid flight rather then waiting to land, so i'm pretty sure that the pilots would probably take all speed to the battlefield

coteaz wrote:
7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

The Sanguinor?

ShumaGorath wrote:It's the first real abstraction to be asked for. Most other deep strike forms simply involve teleportation, parachutes, or having THE MODEL PERFORMING THE DEEP STRIKE EXIST ON THE TABLE (ala land speeder storm, raiders, valkyries, etc).

Marines deploying by Drop Pod Assault didn't have a Drop Pod model on the table when the rule was first introduced.

Yeah, that was a little silly as well... Just pointing out that this isn't actually a first.

I think that people are mostly moaning that deepstriking LR's are broken, and are biast in nearly every way against it. I think it's completely plausible fluff wise, but of all the tanks GW could've chosen to deepstrike, the landraider? This has got to be one of GW's cheesiest sales ideas ever.

Edit: damn multi-post

Deadshane1 wrote:

coteaz wrote:
7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

The Sanguinor?

hem.. 575 pts for QG..

As cool as the special characters sound and look, does anyone else notice that they cost about the same as a land raider? I just can't see spending that much on a single guy . ...

Questions that were above:

1. Yes you can take SS/TH Terminators, but you have to pay more - it's not a free swap like vanilla Marines.
2. No there isn't anything to control your DC - apparently Chaplains just let you reroll hits and wounds for DC.
3. Here's my problem with deepstriking landraiders, probably with a boatload of terminators inside. Based on the size of the model, I wouldn't risk doing it unless there was a teleport beacon nearby. Second, your in reserve Turn 1, then start rolling to come in turn 2. Hopefully you get it, so your in Turn 2. You can't assault or anything that turn, so it's already turn 3 before your guys can disembark and kill stuff. So - hopefully with good rolling, your looking at 3 turns maybe from your Termis. Not sure it's really worth that risk, plus considering you've dropped your nice expensive Land Raider near half range for every melta weapon/MC that your opponent has.
4. Dedicated Transports - yes DC can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. If I was doing a list, I would seriously think about a LR Crusader and throwing all the DC in it - helps alleviate the Rage rule since they don't have to charge if embarked on a transport.
5. Problem I have with the magna grapple is that you don't get your 2D6 when you shoot it at a vehicle for your penetration. So - Str 8, but usually if it's AV13 or AV14 your looking at a 5 or 6 to draw it in.
6. I really hope those are typos on the IC part about Mephiston and some of the others - not being able to attached to squads, no eternal warrior and no invul save makes him a bit dicey for the points cost. With the prevalence of runic weapons, psychic hoods, shadows of the warp, etc. etc., it's not guaranteed that he'll get off every power to turn him into a monster.