21202
Post by: Commander Endova
Okay. I guess this is the third attempt at this.
Summary of rumors and latest discussion in the Old Thread.
Try and keep this one on topic, and let's not actually succumb to the Black Rage this time around, eh?
To open up the discussion, how 'bout that Tantalus Lander thingamabob? Thats a tasty concept.
EDIT: What follows is scuttlebut from warseer, and the best and most detailed summary that I've seen.
Now that we are getting solid confirmation, I present a summary. I will try to keep it up to date, but it looks like a feeding frenzy is about to start
Please do me a favour and check wen the summary was last updated (noted at the bottom of the post) and then read ALL the posts that are older than that before you comment or ask questions. It is not that hard to do.
NOTE: There is a photo of the Stormraven page doing the rounds.
PLEASE DO NOT POST OR LINK TO IT AS IT BREACHES THE RULES OF THIS FORUM!
Any interesting info from it has laready been included in the summary
General info
Release 8 April 2010
Written by Matt Ward
Rules
Army-wide Special Rules
Combat Tactics – Absent. Blood Angels do not seem to get this rule at all.
And They Shall Know No Fear – As per C: SM
Red Thirst - Almost all BA units have it. After deployment roll D6 for each unit with the Red Thirst rule. Any unit that rolls a 1 must exchange ATSKNF for Furious Charge and Fearless.
Descent of Angels - Anything with a Jump Pack can re-roll reserve rolls and will only Scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
Weapons & Wargear
GW have said there will be a range of specialist wargear for the Blood Angels
Infernus Pistols – 6” Melta pistols
Hand Flamers - S3 AP6 Template
Death Mask - Force a Ld check at -2. Fail and fight at WS1.
Over-charged Engines are gone, replaced with Fast on some vehicles.
Blood Talons - Close combat weapons on the Furioso Dreadnought. A dreadnought CCW with a Stormbolter, likely upgradeable to Meltagun/Heavy Flamer. All successful Wounds grant an additional attack.
Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.
Psychic Powers
The Sanguine Sword – Gives Librarian S10
Wings of Sanguinius – As per GW PDF
Quickening - As per C: SM
Unleash Rage - Gives unit Preferred Enemy
Blood Boil – A successful Psychic test causes a wound on an enemy unit, allocated by enemy Player. If the Psychic Test is passed with a result of 5 or less, The Blood Angels player allocates the wound.
Blood Lance - Draw a line of length 4D6” from the Librarian ignoring friendly models. Enemy models take a single S8 AP1 Lance hit.
Might of Heroes - +D3 extra Attacks
Unnamed - Units within 6” get a 5+ cover save
Unnamed – One enemy squad has to take a Ld test to Move, Run, Shoot or Assault.
HQ
Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels – He and his squad don't scatter when Deep Striking. He doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
Death Mask of Sanguinius – As per regular Death Mask, plus pick a single Independent Character at the start of the game and cause -1 to WS, A, I and Ld. This remains even if he dies.
Gives his squad Hit & Run
Hits like a Monstrous Creature
Allows Sanguinary Guard as Troops
Gabriel Seth, Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers – Captain stat line Armed with a very large Chainsword (S8, rending), Bolt Pistol and Iron Halo
Whirlwind of Death - Can forgo his normal attacks and cause one auto-hit on everything in base to base contact with him
If an enemy rolls 1 to hit him, he hits back with a basic close combat attack.
Mephiston, Lord of Death
Armed with Psychic Hood, Plasma Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades
May cast 3 psychic powers per turn,
Transfixing Gaze - Does not require a psychic test. A single Independent Character must take a Ld test with a -4 modifier. If they fail Mephiston may re-roll failed hits and wounds. The enemy may fight back is they survive.
Not an Independant Character
Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company – Hits like a Monstrous Creature (at S4) and can re-roll a single To-Wound roll. His Combi-Melta has access to Sternguard special ammo.
Can be normal with regular Captain rules, or Death Company swapping Captain rukes for Death Company ones.
Both versions have Preferrred Enemy: Orks
Death Company version is not an Independant Character
Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Librarian – No news yet
Company Captain – No news yet
Honour Guard – Option for a Sanguinary Aspirant and Blood Champion (Company Champion)
Tech adept appears to have been removed
Can take Jump Packs
Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack
Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.
Shadow of the Primarch - Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.
Hits at S6 in Close Combat and forces Invulnerable Saves to be re-rolled
Removes 0-1 restriction on Death Company
Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host – A “mysterious avenging angel” armed with 2-handed master crafted Power Sword (possibly S6), Bolt Pistol, and Jump Pack.
He is rumoured to be the head of the Sanguinary Guard circa Horus Heresy, Azkaellon.
Can nominate an enemy HQ and get re-rolls to all To-Hit and Wound rolls on that model
All friendly units within 6” get +1 attack
Blessing of Sanguinor - One sergeant in your army has +1 to WS, S, W, I, A and Ld
Not an Independant Character but Eternal Warrior
Elites
Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Terminator Squad – No news yet
Terminator Assault Squad – No news yet
Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Furioso, and Furioso Librarian
Furioso has front armour 13 and Blood Talons.
Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.
Techmarine – No access to the Thunderfire Cannon
Sternguard Veterans – As per C: SM
Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5. Veteran Marine stats
Sanguinary Priests – WS5 I4 2A. Unit of 1-3. Grails give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to all units within 6". can take Jump Packs or Terminator Armour.
Brother Corbulo – Upgrade to Sanguinary Priests. Same profile. Armed with a S5 rending Chainsword. Red grail gives Feel No Pain and Furious Charge within 6”. Supposedly gets FNP himself on a 2+. Has a single special reroll that can be used on anything at all, including seizing the initiative.
Troops
Assault Squad – As per C: SM but have Red Thirst and can take 1 special weapon per 5 Marines.
Tactical Squad – As per C: SM but have Red Thirst
Death Company – Furious charge, Fearless, Relentless, Feel No Pain, Rage, 3-30 models, 0-1 choice. Armed with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. Can take Power Weapons, Thunder Hammers and Power Fists. Can take Jump Packs.
Cost with Jump Packs is the same as it is in the GW PDF.
Not a Scoring Unit
Rage not removed by the presence of a Chaplain.
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost – Upgrade character for Death Company. Armed with Crozius, Bolt Pistol and Jump Pack. Gets stronger if he loses one of his two wounds.
Death Company Dreadnaught - May take one for every 5 Death Company in the army. Several different weapon options including Magna-Grapple, Blood Talons (some form of Melta weapon), etc. Gets D3 additional attacks.
Scout Squad – Standard Scouts. No “Mad Max” style ones
Fast Attack
Vanguard Veterans – A bit cheaper than C: SM. No Relic Blades, but access to the Glaive Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons). Able to take Hand Flamers. Can supposedly take an Exsanguinator
Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.
Bike Squadron – No news yet
Attack Bike Squadron – No news yet
Land Speeder – No news yet
Land Speeder Storm – Not included
Heavy Support
Devastator Squad – No news yet
Whirlwind – As per C: SM
Predator – As per C: SM but are Fast
Vindicator – As per C: SM but are Fast
Dreadnaught – See Elites
Stormraven Gunship – Skimmer, Fast, Assault Vehicle, Deep Strike.
Armed with twin-linked Assault Cannons, twin-linked Heavy Bolters and 4 Bloodstrike Missiles.
Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures
Bloodstrike Missiles Range 72” S8 AP1 Heavy 1, One-shot
Transports 1 squad of up to 12 Marines total (Jump Troops take up 2 slots) and up to 1 Dreadnought at the same time.
Transported Dreads take a single S4 hit on rear armour if the Stormraven explodes
Models can be deployed at any point of the move, even if it goes flat out but they must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Jump Pack Troops have a better chance of passing). Models deployed in this way cannot assault.
No fire points
4 access points (front, sides and top (?))
May replace Heavy Bolters with either twin-linked Multi-Melta or twin-linked Typhoon Launchers. May also take Hurricane Bolter sponsons.
Dedicated Transports
Rhino – As per C: SM but are Fast
Razorback – As per C: SM but are Fast
Drop Pod – No news yet
Land Raider – Standard, Crusader and Redeemer. Only available as Dedicated Transports (most units that can currently have DTs can get one). Can supposedly Deep Strike somehow.
Minis
Releases are:
Death Company: 26 Euro
Sanguinary Guard: 26 Euro
Baal Predator: 39 Euro
Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host: £10.00 / US$20.00 / 17,50 € / Oz$33.00
Gabriel Seth: £10.00 / US$17.00 / 15,00 € / Oz$28.00
Astorath the Grim: £10.00 / US$17.00 / 15,00 € / Oz$28.00
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost: £10.00 / US$17.00 / 15,00 € / Oz$28.00
Direct only
Blood Angels Vanguard Veteran
Flesh Tearers Shoulder Pads
THE STORMRAVEN IS NOT GETTING A MODEL YET!!!!!
ANYTHING THAT IS NOT LISTED HERE IS NOT GETTING A MODEL YET!!!!!
Death Company ( BA upgrade kit) – Makes 5 plastic Death Company / Blood Angels.
Originally Posted by The Voice
The sprue you are referring to contains:
5x Bolt Pistols
5x Chainswords (1 two-handed)
5x Bolter arm sets
2x Hand Flamers
2x Perdition Pistols
2x Plasma Pistols
1x Power Sword
1x Thunderhammer
1x Powerfist
5x Jump Packs
5x Backpacks
5x Legs
5x Torso backs
5x Torso fronts
8x Heads
20x Shoulder pads
Other small bits
Pictures here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...8&d=1268057886
Sprues here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...8&d=1268059055
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...9&d=1268059055
Sanguinary Guard - Makes 5 plastic Sanguinary Guard
Originally Posted by The Voice
Sanguinary Guard look very similar to Sanguinor, with muscled armour, winged Jump Packs, haloed heads, two-handed weapons (three swords, two axes) and wrist-mounted Bolters. There are additional wrist mounted weapons of the Melta and Plasma variety and a lovely battle standard.
Originally Posted by The Voice
As to the Sanguinary Guard, contents are as follows:
5x legs (look like Dante/Tycho)
5x torso fronts (all muscled, no belts)
5x toros backs
5x winged Jump Packs (5 parts each)
5x left arms with wrist mounted Bolters
1x left arm with wrist mounted Plasma Gun
1x left arm with wrist mounted Melta Gun
3x 2-handed swords
2x 2-handed axes (1 double headed)
15x shoulder pads
1x large standard with winged grail icon on top
Multiple heads of different types such as with haloes and laurels
Other small bits like hands for the left arms
Pic here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...7&d=1268057886
Sprues here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...0&d=1268059055
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1268059096
Seems The Voice forgot to mention the Power Fist on the sprue
Baal Predator – Makes 1 Plastic Baal Predator
Comes with Assault Cannon and Flamestorm Cannon turret options as well as Heavy Flamer and Heavy Bolter sponson options.
Pic here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...4&d=1268058009
Standard Rhino sprues plus the Baal Predator Sprue below:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...7&d=1268059055
Metal Blisters:
Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host
Originally Posted by The Voice
Sanguinor has muscular armour similar to the current Dante miniature. His single engine Jump Pack has large wings on the sides and a halo on top. He adopts the classic “exalted angel” pose similar to Celestine with arched back and arms flung wide. His face is passive with shoulder length, wavy hair. His left hand holds a small grail, his right holds a sword.
Originally Posted by The Voice
Sanguinor has the typical broad-bladed sword used by most Space Marines. The Blade is a hand-span wide, straight, with a diamond point and a Fuller. The Guard is a typical cross guard, slightly embellished and with no Quillions. The Grip is about a one and a half hander, and the Pommel is quite plain.
Pic here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...6&d=1268057886
Gabriel Seth
Originally Posted by The Voice
Chapter Master Gabriel Seth is armed with an Eviscerator (or very large Chainsword) which is longer than he is, double edged, with a very long grip (about 3.5-4 hand spans). He has fairly standard Power Armour, sparsely adorned with some scrollwork etc, and his backpack sports a cloak, small wings and an Iron Halo. His right shoulder pad has trim shaped like a saw blade, and his left sports a Flesh Tearers symbol with a single wing, similar to Tycho’s heraldry. He is posed running forward, pulling back for a two-handed sideways sweep of his blade and has the standard yelling head.
Pic here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...9&d=1268057898
Astorath the Grim
Originally Posted by The Voice
Astorath has muscular armour similar to the current Mephiston miniature. He has a shouting head with long, flowing hair and a single engine Jump Pack with small wings on the sides. He is posed to be coming down in a hard 2-handed overhead swipe with an axe that’s handle is crafted to resemble a spine.
Seen here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...5&d=1268057886
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
Originally Posted by The Voice
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, will get a brand new and much better miniature upon release. He stands atop a small pile or rubble, feet together, with right arm pointing a Bolt Pistol and left arm at ease holding a Crozius topped with a 2-headed eagle. His armour is adorned with many rivets and purity seals. His right shoulder pad is a jawless skull, and his left sports an embossed Blood Angels icon. His torso has a harness for his Jump Pack which itself is adorned with chains and charms and has the Blood Angels icon embossed on top of both intake vents. His helmet is a haloed skull with pipes to the sides of the mouth, but this time the eyes have lenses and the halo is more subtle.
Seen here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...6&d=1268059055
And new Jump Pack Death Company:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1267857602
Vanguard Veteran with Hand Flamer and Power Weapon. (Direct only)
Originally Posted by The Voice
For example, there is a Veteran with Jump Pack, Hand Flamer and Power Weapon due for release. His armour and Pump Pack are sparsely adorned with blood droplet gems, Purity Seals and scrollwork. Standing in the typical tip-toed pose of a jump troop, his upraised left arm holds a broad-bladed double-edged power sword with winged blood droplet guard and two-handed grip. The head is bare with a fairly typical short-haired Marine face in a “grumpy, but not yelling” pose.
Pic here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...5&d=1268058009
Flesh Tearers Shoulder Pads
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...2&d=1268059096
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attach...4&d=1268059096
21358
Post by: Dysartes
Interesting idea, but I'll withhold judgement until I see the model.
Other than that, I'm somewhat bemused by the Dread-heavy nature of the current rumours, but again, I'll wait and see if the 'Dex presents a logical - or at least characterful - rationale for it.
21202
Post by: Commander Endova
I agree. Estimates of five or six Dreadnought variants seem ridiculous. I think it'll be 4, maximum. Regular, Furioso (replacing Ironclad), Venerable, and the unique Moriar. As for quantity, can't be more than 6, by taking a MotF or some equivalent.
20868
Post by: Kervin
I personally like the lander and all the Dreads.
IMO I would think that Moriar should be counted as a character and not as a Dread variant.
And as for the 5-6 variants a slandered chapter has that if you include forge world Siege and Chaplin dreads just in FYI. (Here is a wish list item) Dread squads, now just look at it this way they made Carnifexes into squad units, mind that they did double the cost, but with a character I could see the need for so many Dread variants.
As for the Tantalus, what I read from the old thread and the blood rage that took place over a few comments on its history make it interesting, and with the popularity for source of its history would make one think why would GW put it in only one codex. I am getting the impression if it is worth half of the rumors around it, and the fact that it had showed up in the SW codex, it might show up in the Battle Missions in March. And on that where are all the rumors for that release. And with all those Dread and a new twelve model lander I would not be shocked if it could carry a dread (see drop pod).
I am aware that this all just speculation but it is coming from observations. So, take it or leave it.
8944
Post by: Jackmojo
If they do allow Dreadnoughts as a Fast Attack choice with transport (Tantalus, Pod or both) that's an option I think I'll find my self taking advantage of frequently, since I love my stompy cybots (I own I think a dozen or so  ) but find that in either elites, or previously as heavy support they fight with lots of other fun goodies.
Jack
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Kervin wrote:I am getting the impression if it is worth half of the rumors around it, and the fact that it had showed up in the SW codex, it might show up in the Battle Missions in March. And on that where are all the rumors for that release.
BoLS just posted some information that originated on Warseer-- apparently the planned releases for Battle Missions are:
-Space Marine Venerable Dreadnought
-Ork Deff Dread
-Ork Killa Kanz
-Imperial Guard Chimera
-Imperial Guard Basilisk
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
That information is also on this forum in multiple other threads, which is where I saw it and pointed it out to BoLS. "Will it go 'round in circles...will it fly high like a bird up in the sky..."
24035
Post by: Ostrakon
Commander Endova wrote:I agree. Estimates of five or six Dreadnought variants seem ridiculous. I think it'll be 4, maximum. Regular, Furioso (replacing Ironclad), Venerable, and the unique Moriar. As for quantity, can't be more than 6, by taking a MotF or some equivalent.
Don't forget Death Company dreads. I wouldn't be surprised to see them have their own profile.
I think:
Vanilla dread
Furioso dread (more or less current version)
Death Company dread (furioso with fleet, rage, and more attacks)
Furioso Supremo (Venerable+Furioso, some unique ability)
116
Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Back in 3rd ed I used to Dread spam and regularly ran 3 furiosos and 3 ML/TLLC dreads.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
You know, something I'm wondering about with the Baal Predator is if it'll get some new sponson options like the IG Demolishers did. I mean, it'd be pretty easy for GW to give them something like Hurricane Bolters as a sponson option.
21202
Post by: Commander Endova
Hurricane bolters would be awesome, as would Flamestorm cannons.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Personally, I'm OK with (i.e. playing as):
- BAs for the jump packs
- BTs for the models
- CSM for the rules flexibilty
- SMs for the gun options
That's 4, so I guess I'd be cutting the DA and SWs... So sad. 
So the Marines have a release a year. Big deal.
123
Post by: Alpharius
ALREADY had to remove some OT spam posts.
He's a hint - if you don't like Blood Angels in particular or Space Marines in general, DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD.
If you like some other race, start a thread about them in the appropriate section of this website.
So, once again, we're at the WARNING STAGE of the thread.
After this point, people who choose to ignore the warning will be dealt with...
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Anyone know what guns the Tantalus might be getting or be able to be upgraded to?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
At this point in time we don't even know that the Tantalus exists for sure, so speculating on its upgrades is a little daft.
21202
Post by: Commander Endova
Posted today on BoLS, which came from Warseer, which most likely came from Tim's mom's basement, located somewhere in Michigan.
BoLS wrote:"A little bit of background: another main theme of the codex is that the curse is becoming stronger. In reaction to this there is a kind of philosophical schism inside the chapter - nothing like civil war but an ongoing dispute. The Sanguinians try to adhere to the principle of their primarch and take the curse as a test of character. They try to overcome the affects and stay as civil as possible. Dante is the leader of this faction and it is the more influential. The Faustians however try to use the curse. They believe it was a gift of their dying Primarch to his children, that he gave them his strength. But it was wasted for millenia by overly hesitant chapter masters. The Faustians were a minor group and only prominent inside the Flesh Tearer Chapter. The ascend of the Lord of Death however sparked a fast growth of this group. Mephiston was the living proof that the black rage was not a curse but a only locked door on the way to the full potential of the Blood Angels. Sanguinary Priest Faustus is the most influential member. He is the lord of the tower of Amareo and has studied the black rage for centuries. The successor chapter have similiar groups. The only exceptions are the Flesh Tearers and Angels Sanguine. The former are all Faustians, the latter all Sanguinians.Speed is one of the main themes of the codex."
We've heard the army is subject to the following special rules:
-Combat squads
- ATSKNF
-Furious Charge
-Red Fury: Unit must pass a Ld check if an enemy model is within 12" or be subject to Rage USR
(Note the lack of Combat Tactics)
Interesting stuff.
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Saw this on 40kFightClub this morning, which states it originated on a Hogs of War website (I'm unfamiliar with that site);
Blood Angels - Codex Table of Contents?
Game-Headz has up what appears to be the most concrete list of content from the new Blood Angels book that I have seen so far. Either someone was very bored and made up a false table of contents or this is from a leaked paly-testing copy. My money is on the play testing copy but you never can tell.
From Game-Headz -
Ok stuff is really starting to pour out at this time.
In the UK the feb Wd is showing up and there have been some conformations...
Furiso Dread, and a Librarian Dread!
(NOTE THIS MAY BE the actual page listings, I can not confirm or deny if it's really the one in the new codex, so for now it's just "Fan generated" and not from a GW Codex, take with Salt)
also this got leaked out too.
Its the army list and page numbers from the new codex
Get a look at it while you can ... it came from several trusted forums and trusted posters, I'd rather not directly which ones at this point to keep the ban hammer off them and GW legal off their necks.
Interesting notes ...
1 page for the Land raiders
a lot of Named IC's for several chapters
Honor guard AND the Exalted....they are different people..
2 types of Scout and scout bikers.
Tantalus.... if you don't know don't ask ( or read a couple posts below)
Baal Pread separate from Reg Pred
Mephiston gets 2 pages of entrees
Victor Nergal... a MASTER OF THE FORGE! ( finally....)
Any how enjoy while it lasts
----
page -26 background
27 combat squads, red fury, furious charge, they shall know no fear
28 Commander
29 Sanguinary Priest
30 Chaplain
31 Librarian
32 Tactical Squad
33 Assault Squad
34 Devastator Squad
35 Death Company
36 Terminator Squad
37 Honour Guard
38 Dreadnought
39 Furioso Dreadnought
40 Scouts
41 Initiate Scouts
42 Bikes
43 Scoutbikes
44 Land Speeder
45 Exalted
46 Techmarine/Razorback
47 Rhino
48 Drop Pod
49 Tantalus
50 Predator
51 Baal Predator
52 Whirlwind/Vindicator
53 Land Raider
54 Commander Cervan Dante, Chaptermaster of the Blood Angels
55 Mikhael Faustus, Sanguinor of the Blood Angels, Exemplar of the Host
56-57 Mephiston, Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels, Lord of Death
58 Erasmus Tycho, Captain of the 3. Company of the Blood Angels
59 Reo Lemartes, Chaplain of the Blood Angels, Guardian of the Lost
60 Victor Nergal, Master of the Forge of the Blood Angels
61 Moriar the Chosen, Death Company Dreadnought of the Blood Angels
62 Hieri Lorenzo, Sergeant of the First Company of the Blood Angels
63 Absolutus, Dreadnought of the Flesh Tearers, Furioso Supremo
64 Gabriel Seth, Chaptermaster of the Flesh Tearers
65 Toledo Astorath, Chaptermaster of the Angels Sanguine
66-72 wargear
73 psychic powers
----
Edit :Here's more...
-----
Force Organization Chart
Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
--Assault Squad - troops
--Honour Guard - elites
--Exalted - fast attack
Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC
Units Rules
Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.
Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard
Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.
Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.
Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.
Named Characters
Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:
-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain
Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn.
More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:
The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6
Psychic Powers
Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.
Fluff
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion
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Post by: warboss
the big list is basically a conglomeration of what's been reported on warseer, bolter and chainsword, and here (bell of lost souls tend to get the info later). it's nice to see it in one spot since the threads here keep getting nuked because of idiots who can't keep on topic.
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Post by: Alpharius
! wrote:
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion
This, I like. It should enable a lot of good 'counts as' for stuff that we've lost over the years. Sort of like a 'Index Astartes' "counts as".
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Post by: Neconilis
I'm assuming that this is a yes, but does anyone know for sure if Death Company Furiosos are still in or do we only have Moriar now? Also...  Good-night, sweet prince; and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
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Post by: Kingsley
Well, I assume he can still be a counts-as Sanguinary Priest at the very least....
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Post by: Neconilis
Fetterkey wrote:Well, I assume he can still be a counts-as Sanguinary Priest at the very least....
True enough, but since I just got my Corbulo painted up I will miss the guy being special unto himself.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
I'm liking the idea of successor chapters getting their own little single-page blurb. Do th eDA or SW Codices have this? (I own neither)
I am curious as to why the BA are being turned into the Dread-heavy chapter, when generally Dreads have been pretty shooty and the BA are the all out assault chapter.
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Post by: Kervin
AgeOfEgos wrote:Saw this on 40kFightClub this morning, which states it originated on a Hogs of War website (I'm unfamiliar with that site);
Blood Angels - Codex Table of Contents?
...
54 Commander Cervan Dante, Chaptermaster of the Blood Angels
...
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
...
I am finding it interesting that there are no Jump pack in HQ but Dante is a Jump pack HQ and he still has a model with a Jump pack ( http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1050000&prodId=prod1100005). As well as normal marines all standard HQ choices can take Jump packs except for MoF, so why in a Jump pack heavy army they can't? Just something to chew over.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Uhh.... Blood Angels DO have a jump=pack equipped HQ. It's the Honor Guard.
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Post by: Jackmojo
You're making a rather large assumption that they're going to stay HQ's...
Jack
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Post by: Kervin
Scottywan82 wrote:Uhh.... Blood Angels DO have a jump=pack equipped HQ. It's the Honor Guard.
As they stand now they are an upgrade for another IC not an intendant HQ choice FYI.
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Post by: Commander Endova
Are those all metal models, or plastic?
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Post by: Neconilis
Commander Endova wrote:Are those all metal models, or plastic?
Metal if I'm not mistaken.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Worse than metal. Hybrids.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Tssssss, get the hybrids!
Purge with fires!
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Until there is a cheaper way to do characters, it won't happen. The WHFB plastic HQ's and the SM Commander were experiments, experiments that seem to have sadly gone away.
So viva la metal!
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Post by: Kingsley
Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...
Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I reckon we'll see the return of plastic character kits eventually, but not until all other stuff (like Empire) are all in plastic. Then it becomes a bit more reasonable as part of a release budget to include them.
Certainly the Empire Wizards sell pretty well, as they are easily converted into Necromancers as well!
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Post by: Kingsley
There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I reckon we'll see the return of plastic character kits eventually, but not until all other stuff (like Empire) are all in plastic. Then it becomes a bit more reasonable as part of a release budget to include them.
Certainly the Empire Wizards sell pretty well, as they are easily converted into Necromancers as well!
Not only that, but I've seen some cool Sanctioned Psykers made from Empire Wizard+Cadian bits.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Fetterkey wrote:Well, I assume he can still be a counts-as Sanguinary Priest at the very least....
Don't worry, he commiserates this with Brother Bethor. 
____
chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm liking the idea of successor chapters getting their own little single-page blurb. Do the DA or SW Codices have this?
I don't think so, but the CSM do, sort of. 
I also agree that this is an excellent change in approach, especially for First Founding Legions that were split up (UM, DA & BA). BT & SW should have examples of different Crusade / Great Comany approaches. All of these show increased diversity in terms of setting canonical bounds for each Codex chapter, and allow players more freedom.
In the case of BA, I'm assuming the 4 will break out as:
- BA (default)
- FT (radical fury / rage)
- Angels Sanguine (puritan Sanguinary)
- Angels Vermillion (Dread-heavy)
Anyhow great stuff. I think the BA book is the new model for SM successor / variant Codices and sets a high standard.
chaplaingrabthar wrote: I am curious as to why the BA are being turned into the Dread-heavy chapter, when generally Dreads have been pretty shooty and the BA are the all out assault chapter.
To be Dread-heavy, the army needs both shooty and fighty dreads. The long-standing Furioso vs standard covers that, esp as BA are good to take standard Dreds as Heavies rather than Elite. A standard Dread is still pretty fighty due to the DNCCW.
And really, it's process of elimination/ distribution of features:
- UM SM is vanilla shooty, but (oddly) adds White Scars bikers, leaving room for the other sub-Codices
- DA is minor deviance from Codex, but also covers Termies & Bikes
- SW & BT are fighty, but both major deviance from Codex
- BA is fighty, but still pays lip service to the Codex, so they get the Dread focus, along with the Assault Marines.
IMO, the big challenge will be advancing BT to have more variety, while also forging a clearly distinct identity from BA, SW, and CSM.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Fetterkey wrote:There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.
It's also a sparse kit. We'll ignore the lack-of-a-second-lightning-claw for a second and just look at the sprue - look at all that dead space. There's more air in that kit than plastic, and that means it loses out on what could be a very nice multi-purpose kit. Now, we do have to remember that this was before their plastic tech renaissance, so the packed sprues we're used to now (Space Wolves being the latest example, or for an older example the Devastator Squad box) simply weren't possible then. A re-cut of the Commander, Assault Squad and Command Squad box could yield twice the bits and less wasted space (just look at an Assault Marine sprue - there's more sprue than model!).
People not taking commanders isn't so much an issue, although a Marine 'Commander' box with multiple heads, torsos, shoulder pads, weapons and accessories to make Chaplains/Librarians/Captains out of a single box would be very cool. They could also fill the gaps in the box by giving us Combi-Flamers, the other lightning claw, Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.
I also stand corrected (partially) - Command boxes aren't a concept that has been left behind. Guard got two them. Granted it was a squad rather than a single model, but the concept partially survived there. I hope it continues.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Fetterkey wrote:There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.
Perhaps, that's because the SM Commander Kit isn't intended to cover every SM HQ option.
Perhaps, just perhaps, eventually, GW will release a plastic mix-and-max SM Chaplain kit. And then a SM Librarian kit, to complete the SM HQ range.
And then perhaps GW might release a BA Commander kit, to be followed by DA and BT Commander kits, each with extra spare bitz to customize the SM Chaplain & Librarian kits.
Is that beyond expectation, given how little metal GW has left to remove from the SM range?
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I'll be drop podding all my furiosos directly into the enemy line as soon as possible in game.
Shenanigans will ensue....
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
You can build whatever SM character with all the wargear/options you want from bits, you don't need a boxed kit.
The rumors at this point seem to be wrapping around on themselves with nothing much new provided over the past week. For Blood Angels to be top tier again they will need some strong units that are a bit over the top but don't cost an exorbant amount of points. I am hoping there are at least two viable lists that can perform well. It would be great if you can play a balanced list that hits hard in close combat and can absorb some punishment without quickly fading away. If all the best units are very expensive you will end up with a very small army that you can't make any mistakes if you want to win. If you look at IG now these players have access to many cheap units that can pour out lots and lots of firepower. I have found that IG players don't like killpoint missions because it's their worst mission. Killpoints were designed to balance out armies like mech IG. Victory points is not the answer... IG will field lots of chimeras with BS4 veterans carrying gak tons of melta and maybe one squad with plasma. First you have to crack open eight chimeras of death then engage the cheap veterans. Meanwhile they are pounding you with lots of ordnance and other shooting. They are a nightmare in multiple objective missions. Victory points as opposed to killpoints make them that much stronger. You might kill some chimeras and then assault some of the veteran squads. On the other hand mech IG gives up tons of killpoints, it's their worst matchup by far. They don't need any assault units because their shooting is so strong. That's just the way it is. Hopefully the new Necrons will bring back some balance versus mech armies. It's much needed in my opinion
G
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Post by: Scottywan82
Fetterkey wrote:Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...
Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.
I totally disagree.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Scottywan82 wrote:I totally disagree.
Perhaps he has not seen the Space Hulk Terminators?
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
I'll say this- with metals, for me at least, there is a sense of permanence that I dont get with plastic minis. That plus the nostalgia factos for me mean I rather enjoy special characters being in metal.
Hell, at the prices GW charges all the minis should be in metal, and you should get twice as much stuff.
Thats not to detract from the thread too much- I havent bought anything from GW directly for months, but depending on the BA stuff I might make an exception. (Or maybe not, and it'll only be the bitz sellars I go to) But I will say that if the BA stuff doesnt match a certain look I want it to (for use not as BA at all, but my own chapter.), I probably wont bother too much with GW anymore anyways.
And so i cant wait for pictures, personally. 
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Post by: Kervin
Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.
Now back on topic there is all this talk about the Furioso Dread being a Ironclad equivalent (or it is at least strongly implied) and they are not and one thing I would like to know is other then fluff how is GW going to split the two (hoping they are in the BA dex). If the are putting the Furioso into a fast attack slot give it a 12" move?
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Post by: Leggy
Kervin wrote:Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.
Yeah, but they can also unbalance the model if all the metal is on one side, or if it's top heavy. I agree about plastic models feeling a little light though. Often i stick a penny in the base to give it some weight.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Scottywan82 wrote:Fetterkey wrote:Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...
Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.
I totally disagree.
That depends on what you mean by "detail".
- Plastic molds cannot have any undercuts, so plastics have a 2-D quality. This works great for things assembled from plates, or things that don't have inset / textured detail going evenly around the shape.
- Metal molds "give" and shrink, so there will always be some inaccuracy in the model, and viscosity limits possible "sharpness"
It's a trade-off, but you can use more plastic parts to "accurately" capture a 3-D shape.
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Post by: warboss
Kervin wrote:Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.
Now back on topic there is all this talk about the Furioso Dread being a Ironclad equivalent (or it is at least strongly implied) and they are not and one thing I would like to know is other then fluff how is GW going to split the two (hoping they are in the BA dex). If the are putting the Furioso into a fast attack slot give it a 12" move?
i don't know if from a balance standpoint i'd like the furioso to have ironclad stats. the ironclad is by name a more heavily armored dread while the furioso is.. well.. furious! the limited fluff we have on the furioso dreads doesn't really mention a ton of extra armor. i'd prefer if it had fleet (like the defiler), move through cover, and furious charge (like the rest of the army) for that all important initiative 5 on the charge. GW has been (at least in 5th ed) pretty good about differentiating their units and their variants. the ironclad is the "heavy" dread, the venerable one is the one with a hero statline ( WS/BS5 and reroll damage rolls), and the standard dread is vanilla. i see them as equivalent to termies, sternguard, and tactical marines with the furioso hopefully being the jump marine (aka faster than normal dread).
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Post by: phantommaster
New plastic Tyranids seem pretty well detailed to me.
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Post by: Panic
Commander Endova wrote:BoLS wrote:
-Red Fury: Unit must pass a Ld check if an enemy model is within 12" or be subject to Rage USR
(Note the lack of Combat Tactics)
yeah, How does this work? sounds like premeasureing, you'll know exactly which of your units are within 12" of a enemy unit. Do all BloodAngels test and those that fail check to see if they are within 12"? and if they are must rage. You'll still find out which units are 12.5" away and now being rage free wont risk the charge. Panic...
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Post by: Kirasu
Ill take GWs best plastics over any other companies best metals any day.. The whole argument of plastics being less detailed was relevant years and years ago
I suggest looking at the best new plastic kit imo
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Post by: Scottywan82
Kirasu wrote:Ill take GWs best plastics over any other companies best metals any day.. The whole argument of plastics being less detailed was relevant years and years ago
I suggest looking at the best new plastic kit imo
Thanks. I was going to do some multi-quoting and rant, but that said it for me. Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit, because I can at least convert the plastic. I gave up on metal conversions almost a decade ago.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Scottywan82 wrote:Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit,
Yes, plastics are great, especially with GW's new mix-and-match options, but whoa, dude... Let's not get too carried away here.
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Post by: Kurgash
Scottywan82 wrote:Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit,
please :( no more empire Goldswords
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Post by: Sidstyler
Comments like this one aren't really Dakka suitable. ta.
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Post by: soapy
Do we think this Games Day WIP is likely to be the new lander?
Sorry if this has been mooted already.
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Post by: Therion
The aerodynamics of that thing are breathtaking. Even worse than the 'flying brick'.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
That's an upcoming FW model, not the Tantalus.
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Post by: Alpharius
Therion wrote:The aerodynamics of that thing are breathtaking. Even worse than the 'flying brick'.
"Suspension of Disbelief" is required before entering 40k!
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Post by: Kirasu
Besides the aerodynamics.. it also looks like a flying brick! which looks awful to me anyway
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Post by: jbunny
Well it is a Work in Progess, which means it could change a good bit before it is finalized.
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Post by: Kervin
The tech priests stole a page from the book of George Lucas's book and use Repalser-lift technology.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
soapy wrote:Do we think this Games Day WIP is likely to be the new lander?
Nope. I think it's a 3-D mock-up of a a concept, though.
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Post by: Ostrakon
Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...
Jeez, am I the only one who like metal minis? I love the weight and feel of moving metal minis across the table.
I'll definitely concede that plastic is easier to work with and often more detailed, but I think some units should just remain metal, like HQs and high-profile elites.
I, for one, will be picking up a couple of metal Furiosos while I still can.
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Post by: Chamleoneyes
I really hope finished product for the new lander looks good, it's probably the part of the new codex that I'm most looking forward to. Any idea on how much it may cost? $35-$55? Also, do we think the Librarian Dread is going to be a plastic, metal or hybrid?
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Chamleoneyes wrote:I really hope finished product for the new lander looks good, it's probably the part of the new codex that I'm most looking forward to. Any idea on how much it may cost? $35-$55? Also, do we think the Librarian Dread is going to be a plastic, metal or hybrid?
I'm actually guessing the Librarian dread will among the many codex options without models forthcoming.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
I'm betting that the Tantalus will run $58 like the Valkyrie and that if there is a Librarian Dread that it will be metal and will run in the $55-$60 range.
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Post by: Reecius
The libby dread will just be a dread with a different sarcophagus cover.
Well, let's hope that it is more than just that! haha, that is just the cynic in me I guess.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I'm using this for Moriar if they do not give us a model.
The Forgeworld Chaplain dread...
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Post by: Jackmojo
I do love some of the design components on that model (even though I am not normally a fan of the 'exposed helmet' front panel on the Venerable, it works nicely with the big skull). Those large wings in particular are nice.
Jack
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Post by: Therion
I'm using this for Moriar if they do not give us a model.
I got three Dreadnoughts built from the Ironclad kits, and I've been thinking that should I make another three I would order either those Chaplain Dreads or the BT Dreads. I can't decide which one looks better yet. Maybe two BT ones and one Chappy? Chappy makes me happy.
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Post by: Leggy
soapy wrote:
Do we think this Games Day WIP is likely to be the new lander?
Sorry if this has been mooted already.
This is not the Tantalus, however if you rub the black bit in the middle, you can find out if it's an Autobot or a Decepticon.
(x2 points for anyone below 25 that gets this)
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Post by: dienekes96
Kind of psyched the BA are getting some love. Yes, it's "more Marines", but the release sounds fun, and the BA have gotten the least amount of love of the Big 4 (5 if you include the BT). They had a half 'Dex in 3, and a WD article in 4. This will actually be their first standalone Codex that is longer than 24 pages.
The models sound quite nice. We'll see when we see.
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Post by: Ratbarf
(x2 points for anyone below 25 that gets this)
You do know they have been running incarnations of that show for the last 25 years? The last one I saw was only three years ago.
On topic, I'm hoping for kind of a Marine Flea Circus made of Red Jump packs.
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Post by: Sarigar
Yeah, but it was the 80s versions that had the 'mysterious' Depecticon/Autobot stickers on them. (I think...)
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Post by: Dravenguild
Ah yes the heat transfer stickers they had for transformers, good times =D.
I'm exited for the rumors of exalted, I hope they're a plastic kit though so I may enjoy mixing them into my army.
The librarian dread is a weird concept to me, how are psychic powers going to be executed? Or if not powers then what will set him aside from a normal dread? (Besides an unnecessarily bloated stat-line so we "take" him over everything)
Not liking the concept of a tantalus lander, surely every chapter of space marine would have ome of these if blood angels get them. If it's STC and for marines it is daft that blood angels just suddenly spawned these things out of nothingness.
Keep droppods and overcharged rhinos, why bother with a mini thunderhawk?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Chamleoneyes wrote:I really hope finished product for the new lander looks good, it's probably the part of the new codex that I'm most looking forward to. Any idea on how much it may cost? $35-$55?
Also, do we think the Librarian Dread is going to be a plastic, metal or hybrid?
$35 is way to low. No less than $50 would be my guess.
Libby Dread will probably be metal, unfortunately. With luck, it'll be an extra sprue.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Sarigar wrote:Yeah, but it was the 80s versions that had the 'mysterious' Depecticon/Autobot stickers on them. (I think...)
And (by proxy) Lockdown in the more recent (as in 2008 recent) Transformers Animated series. The animation model had a rubsign whereas the tyoy had a Decepticon sigil.
Why, yes, I am a contributor to TFWiki.net, what gave me away?
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Post by: UltraPrime
The Transformers Classic line from '07 had the rubsign gimmick.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Just found these on wargamerAU
Posted by Organboy:
Force Organization Chart
Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
--Assault Squad - troops
--Honour Guard - elites
--Exalted - fast attack
Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC
Units Rules
Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.
Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard
Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.
Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports. "Put Vega from Street Fighter into a slim power armour and give him the Blade of Sigvald and the jump pack of Saint Celestine and you have the right idea."
After battle the Exalted search for wounded who have succumbed to the black rage and take them to the chapter tower prison.
5-10 members, Fast Attack, Standard Marine statline with Ld:10/I:5
jump packs, stormbolter, boltpistol, Exalted blades (thin straight blade with spiral hilt, power weapon, +1 Strength)
Guardians of Amareo: replaces Red Fury and Furious Charge with hit& run.
No transport options
Upgrade to Exemplar Sanguinator granting:
-Paragon of the Host: Reroll hit & run roll
-Coup de Grace: If at least 3 attacks hit, they causes instant death
Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.
Named Characters
Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:
-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain
Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn.
More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:
The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6
Psychic Powers
Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.
Fluff
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion
BorisBC
Dante: no new model, completely new rules, 4+ inv save, +1S power weapon, fearless 6" aura, up to 4 bonusattacks and a funny special rule: Get off my lawn!
Just kidding ^^ In truth it is 'Has seen it all': During deployment deepstiking, infiltrating or outflanking enemy reserves have to roll against Dante or have to be deployed in the deployment zone.
From the latest White Dwarf:
The Angelic Host
In service to the Emperor for over ten thousand years, the noble Sons of Sanguinius are a Chapter cursed...
In April one of the most famous and noblest Space Marine Chapters gets a brand-new Codex and a whole (angelic) host of new models. Yes, this Easter will see the Blood Angels descending onto Warhammer 40,000 battlefields with a thirst for battle that can barely be kept in check. For both veteran and new Blood Angels players there's much to look forward to in the shape of new troop types and powerful characters such as the Furioso Librarian - a psyker entombed in a Dreadnought - and the mysterious avenging angel known only as the Sanguinor.
April's White Dwarf will be packed with enough information to sate the Red Thirst of even the most ardent Blood Angels fan.
Until then, don't let the Black Rage overcome you...
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Post by: apwill4765
This may have been established already, but I just had a thought. Aren't the flesh tearers supposed to make an appearance in this dex? Could they be the other "half of the story"? I seem to recall rumors as far back as October saying that "Blood Angels are only half the story". That would be lame, as I would consider Flesh Tearers in the same half of any story that contained BA =P and as a Templar player I was just hoping for another marine dex in 2010.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Yes they are in this codex, as per the end of the first quote in my last post, they are with a 1 page summary.
Just like the other successor chapters.
All signs for the last couple of months have been that the flesh tearers are to be in the BA codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there should be another marine codex in 2010, because the cycle is invariably marine/CSM, non marine, marine/CSM etc, etc so there should be another marine release in December.
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Post by: TheRavenWolf
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
BorisBC
Dante: no new model, completely new rules, 4+ inv save, +1S power weapon, fearless 6" aura, up to 4 bonusattacks and a funny special rule: Get off my lawn!
Just kidding ^^ In truth it is 'Has seen it all': During deployment deepstiking, infiltrating or outflanking enemy reserves have to roll against Dante or have to be deployed in the deployment zone.
This means he has the ability to stop daemons deepstriking, think of all those bloodletters trailing across the board onto an enemy gunline.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Libby Dread hey?
Let's hope it's not a Special Character...
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Post by: Scottywan82
Leggy wrote:soapy wrote:
Do we think this Games Day WIP is likely to be the new lander?
Sorry if this has been mooted already.
This is not the Tantalus, however if you rub the black bit in the middle, you can find out if it's an Autobot or a Decepticon.
(x2 points for anyone below 25 that gets this)
Childhood FTW.
A piccy
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Post by: apwill4765
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Yes they are in this codex, as per the end of the first quote in my last post, they are with a 1 page summary.
Just like the other successor chapters.
All signs for the last couple of months have been that the flesh tearers are to be in the BA codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there should be another marine codex in 2010, because the cycle is invariably marine/CSM, non marine, marine/CSM etc, etc so there should be another marine release in December.
Well yea, I know they're in there, I'm just wondering if they are the other half of "the story", as the blood angels are "only half the story". This I think would be lame, because a BA is a BA is a BA.
Also, if there is to be another marine dex in 2010, here's hoping it's BT
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Post by: Hulksmash
I actually hope it's the inquisition book w/ GK's and sisters That's the power armor dex i'm hoping for come fall.
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Post by: UltraPrime
I'm lost somewhere.... Agreed, the releases have (so far) been MEQ-Non-MEQ. So, if BA is next, surely next is Non-MEQ? I wouldn't expect another Marine Codex this year, as getting 3 Codexes will be a bonus.
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Post by: warboss
at first i thought it was old but it mentions furious charge (not in the last two pdfs) and infernus pistols for the tactical marine sergeants (definitely new). i'm not liking the "new" color scheme but it doesn't really mater for me as my blood angels successor chapter paint scheme was different to begin with.
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Post by: Neconilis
I find it interesting it mentions razorbacks when everything else we have has told us no razorbacks thus far.
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Post by: warboss
Neconilis wrote:I find it interesting it mentions razorbacks when everything else we have has told us no razorbacks thus far.
not everything. i've seen on several sites a rumor (maybe the same rumor copied and pasted, maybe different sources... don't know) that you need a techmarine to get the razorbacks.
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Post by: Neconilis
I stand corrected then and I can certainly manage that if it's true, better than having to run a standard SM list to use my razorbacks.
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Post by: johnstewartjohn
I think the razorback rumour started as a misinterpretation of the dedicated transports rule. Im sure you can still take them with squads as normal.
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Post by: rdlb
Can someone copy and paste the GW article, clicking on it or pasting it in just takes me to the home page
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Post by: GitSmack
The article isn't available on the site any more... looks like it may have just been an "oops"... intentional or otherwise.
Did anyone happen to catch who had written it? I'm wondering if it provides a hint as to who authored the upcoming codex...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The article was a "BA Tactical Marines are good, how to paint"
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Post by: Neconilis
rdlb wrote:Can someone copy and paste the GW article, clicking on it or pasting it in just takes me to the home page
* Blood Angels: Tactical Marine Painting Stage-by-Stage
Introduction
— Article by Andrew Kenrick & Nick Bayton
* Print
* Email to a Friend
At the core of any Blood Angels army are squads of Tactical Space Marines, reliable and stalwart Space Marines able to turn their considerable skills to any battlefield role. They are flexible units, as confident on the attack as they are at defence. Tactical Marines might be tasked to hold key objectives in the face of overwhelming numbers, or they might be used to spearhead an advance into the heart of the enemy battleline.
The standard armament of a Tactical Marine is the boltgun, a formidable weapon that fires a relentless hail of explosive warheads. As well as the boltgun, Tactical Marines are trained in the use of more specialist weaponry, from deadly flamers to long-ranged lascannons, allowing a squad to go to war with the right combination of wargear for the task at hand. In addition, Blood Angels Tactical Marines are all trained in the use of jump packs and close combat weaponry, so when the need arises they can take to the air in the role of Assault Marines instead.
Tactical Marines are often mechanised, riding to war in fast-moving Rhinos or accompanied by heavily armed Razorbacks. Unlike other Space Marine Chapters, the Blood Angels often employ Land Raiders to transport their Tactical Marines to battle, providing these mainline warriors with an unparalleled level of protection and firepower.
On the Tabletop
Tactical Squads are the most flexible troops in the Blood Angels army, able to be equipped with a variety of weaponry suited to the role you wish them to perform. They can be used to hang back and defend objectives, armed with longer-ranged weapons such as missile launchers and plasma guns, or sent forwards to drive the enemy back, in which case flamers, melta guns and multi-meltas are key. Better still, because a Tactical Squad can split into two Combat Squads when you deploy it, they can perform both roles at the same time.
Use them to:
Hold Ground: Plant a unit of Tactical Marines on an objective and they won't be going anywhere in a hurry. They have a great armour save, can pump out a truly horrible amount of firepower if the enemy draws too near (and a fair amount even at range) and are unlikely to fall back if they come under sustained assault. When playing Seize Ground, you can split the Tactical Squads into two Combat Squads to capture more objectives.
Push Forwards: Equip a unit of Tactical Marines with a meltagun and the Sergeant an infernus pistol and go tankhunting, or give them a flamer and the Sergeant a power weapon and send them into the thick of the fighting. By putting them in a dedicated transport, you can get them to the frontline in no time at all, clearing the enemy off objectives and then seizing them in the name of the Emperor.
Charge!: Tactical Marines are deadly at close range, as they can rapid fire their boltguns twice up to 12", but they aren't slouches in assault either. Their Sergeant can be armed with a variety of nasty close combat weaponry, including power fists, allowing the unit to tackle any foe no matter how big. And, if a unit of Tactical Marines finds itself afflicted by the Red Thirst, this is doubly true - with Furious Charge the unit will have Strength and Initiative 5, and two attacks when they charge.
Watch out for:
Biting off more than you can chew: Tactical Squads are the most flexible troops in the game, so there's little they can't turn their hands to. Just be careful you don't ask too much of them - they'll give it a good go before they die heroically, but you'll wish you hadn't sent them in unsupported.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 2 was simply the step by step painting section.
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Post by: MinMax
"Hello
This image is the last page of the March White Dwarf.
It's called the Tantalus.
Anyone know what this is?"
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Post by: Alpharius
That's what it says?
Pretty funny, actually...
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Post by: Rinkydink
Neconilis wrote:
— Article by Andrew Kenrick & Nick Bayton
Tactical Marines are often mechanised, riding to war in fast-moving Rhinos or accompanied by heavily armed Razorbacks. Unlike other Space Marine Chapters, the Blood Angels often employ Land Raiders to transport their Tactical Marines to battle, providing these mainline warriors with an unparalleled level of protection and firepower.
^^Thanks for posting this; well it looks like Razors are in, but surely this can't mean that LR's can be dedicated tac transports can it?
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Post by: olympia
Consider this. We already know that the new Blood Angels are dreadnought heavy. Giving tacticals Land Raiders would be the only way to squeeze them in with dreads filling up all your heavy and elite slots.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Talk about overkill on the Assault Transports...
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Post by: rdlb
Exactly!
Step One-Tear everything limb from limb.
Step Two-Drink Blood from limbs.
Step Three-Rinse off power armor and repeat.
OVERKILL!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks NEconilis!!
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Post by: Alpharius
Did you see the Tantalus profile in that pic?
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Post by: GitSmack
It's so blurry/fuzzy that it could just as easily be a tau barracuda.
...of course, if you squint hard enough, you can see the unbridled wrath of Sanguinius...
Either way, neat bit of rumor fuel.
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Post by: Alpharius
It has a much lower profile than I thought it would.
It kind of looks closer to the Tempest Speeder than a 'flying raider drop pod' thing we were hearing about...
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Post by: Absolon
GitSmack wrote:It's so blurry/fuzzy that it could just as easily be a tau barracuda.
...of course, if you squint hard enough, you can see the unbridled wrath of Sanguinius...
Either way, neat bit of rumor fuel.
Or could it be an image of something like this
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Post by: GitSmack
I love the look of that thing... one of the best pieces of cover art I've seen in awhile.
Yeah... it's hard to speculate the angle of the shot on that silhouette, but it does seem much sleeker than I would have expected.
I can hardly wait for the first real pics to start rolling in...
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Yeah, I just thought that was the artist taking license with a Thunderhawk pic. I wouldn't be sorely disappointed, though, if that's ultimately what the Tantalus looks like.
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Post by: ph34r
Same, just like the strange heavy-landspeeder looking things in the first large pic in codex Space Wolves.
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Post by: Alpharius
And here we were all thinking it was 'artistic license' being taken with either a Thunderhawk or a Stormbird!
(OK, yes, that was me!)
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Post by: skipmcne
Neconilis wrote:
...Push Forwards: Equip a unit of Tactical Marines with a meltagun and the Sergeant an infernus pistol and go tankhunting, or give them a flamer and the Sergeant a power weapon and send them into the thick of the fighting. By putting them in a dedicated transport, you can get them to the frontline in no time at all, clearing the enemy off objectives and then seizing them in the name of the Emperor.
...
Wait; what's an Infernus Pistol?
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Post by: bhsman
Presumably a pistol with the melta rule and profile, at least in terms of strength and AP.
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Post by: Jackmojo
Presumably a Pistol sized melta, like Dante has had since he first got stats.
Jack
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alpharius wrote:And here we were all thinking it was 'artistic license' being taken with either a Thunderhawk or a Stormbird!
And here I was hoping Thunderbirds are Go!
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Post by: Salacious Greed
Wasn't the librarian dread said to be the Flesh Tearers dread, a former librarian now encased inside a dread, but with no librarian psychic powers. Its just a named dread with no librarian like abilities, so doubtful that there is a specific model, just like Moriar...
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Post by: lindsay40k
TheRavenWolf wrote:Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
BorisBC
Dante: no new model, completely new rules, 4+ inv save, +1S power weapon, fearless 6" aura, up to 4 bonusattacks and a funny special rule: Get off my lawn!
Just kidding ^^ In truth it is 'Has seen it all': During deployment deepstiking, infiltrating or outflanking enemy reserves have to roll against Dante or have to be deployed in the deployment zone.
This means he has the ability to stop daemons deepstriking, think of all those bloodletters trailing across the board onto an enemy gunline.
IIRC, Daemons Deep Strike in during Movement Phases, not Deployment. Spore Mines do get placed by Deep Strike during Deployment, which could be what this rule refers to.
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Post by: mrsako
Neconilis wrote:
Charge!: Tactical Marines are deadly at close range, as they can rapid fire their boltguns twice up to 12", but they aren't slouches in assault either. Their Sergeant can be armed with a variety of nasty close combat weaponry, including power fists, allowing the unit to tackle any foe no matter how big. And, if a unit of Tactical Marines finds itself afflicted by the Red Thirst, this is doubly true - with Furious Charge the unit will have Strength and Initiative 5, and two attacks when they charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, this answers the question "will BA tactical squads have a bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon like the SW brethren" and the answer appears to be: no.
The Tantalus, however, is making me wait in anticipation. 
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Post by: Kervin
Rinkydink wrote:Neconilis wrote:
— Article by Andrew Kenrick & Nick Bayton
Tactical Marines are often mechanised, riding to war in fast-moving Rhinos or accompanied by heavily armed Razorbacks. Unlike other Space Marine Chapters, the Blood Angels often employ Land Raiders to transport their Tactical Marines to battle, providing these mainline warriors with an unparalleled level of protection and firepower.
^^Thanks for posting this; well it looks like Razors are in, but surely this can't mean that LR's can be dedicated tac transports can it?
Ok I thought that BT had the corner on sticking tac squads in Land Raiders and driving across the table open up and say hi while hitting you in the face. Now BA not only can the fly and say hi but can drive too. I can't say it any better so QFT.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Talk about overkill on the Assault Transports...
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Post by: Sarigar
Absolon wrote:GitSmack wrote:It's so blurry/fuzzy that it could just as easily be a tau barracuda.
...of course, if you squint hard enough, you can see the unbridled wrath of Sanguinius...
Either way, neat bit of rumor fuel.
Or could it be an image of something like this
Where is that pic from? It looks a lot like the silhouette pic that was linked from Warseer.
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Post by: Alpharius
mrsako wrote:Neconilis wrote:
Charge!: Tactical Marines are deadly at close range, as they can rapid fire their boltguns twice up to 12", but they aren't slouches in assault either. Their Sergeant can be armed with a variety of nasty close combat weaponry, including power fists, allowing the unit to tackle any foe no matter how big. And, if a unit of Tactical Marines finds itself afflicted by the Red Thirst, this is doubly true - with Furious Charge the unit will have Strength and Initiative 5, and two attacks when they charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, this answers the question "will BA tactical squads have a bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon like the SW brethren" and the answer appears to be: no.
The Tantalus, however, is making me wait in anticipation.
So you're saying that it is rather tantalizing then?
Sarigar wrote:Absolon wrote:GitSmack wrote:It's so blurry/fuzzy that it could just as easily be a tau barracuda.
...of course, if you squint hard enough, you can see the unbridled wrath of Sanguinius...
Either way, neat bit of rumor fuel.
Or could it be an image of something like this
Where is that pic from? It looks a lot like the silhouette pic that was linked from Warseer.
The upcoming White Scars/Raven Guard Black Library book "The Hunt for Voldorius".
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Post by: Flashman
Maybe this Tantalus thing will be a dropship for a Landraider, kind of like the dropship in Aliens. That's my random thought of the day...
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Post by: Vindicare101
Now I'm kinda surprised that this hasn't caused more debate..
"And, if a unit of Tactical Marines finds itself afflicted by the Red Thirst, this is doubly true - with Furious Charge the unit will have Strength and Initiative 5, and two attacks when they charge. "
Soooo.... does this mean that Furious Charge is linked to the Red Thirst, meaning that the BA's will only get Furious Charge when failing their leadership test within 12 of an enemy unit ? thus gaining Rage and having to charge it ?
It kinda makes sense, when viewed with the whole Faustian and Sanguinian stuff..
Those on the Sanguinian side restraining themselves, therefore not going benefitting from the Red Thirst rules all the time, while the Faustians actively encourage it, harnessing the power that it brings.. but with the added lack of control, choosing where the assaults go.. (i.e. not straight into the dread with no means to harm it)
Would make sense as to why Faustians have the opposite effect of Sanguinary High priests, and don't calm the effect..
Still, given the special rules that the SW enjoy, it could be that Furious Charge is enabled across the board, and it's just the Rage element of Red Thirst that has to be restrained.. a nice middle ground from the old d6 roll per unit, fail and move forward d6.. but with no real benefit to the Faustians..
As to the Infernus Pistol, if it were based on Dante's, that'd be a melta with an 8inch range, 4inch for double dice penetration roll.. poor old Salamanders, masters of all that's hot and burny, yet haven't cottoned onto the idea of a melta pistol ! heck.. even sisters have them...
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Post by: Kervin
Flashman wrote:Maybe this Tantalus thing will be a dropship for a Landraider, kind of like the dropship in Aliens. That's my random thought of the day...
I drought that there is already a lander for Land Raiders and it is big, Supper Heavy and made by FW, just FYI. BTW I am not naming any names or saying anything about plastic.
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Post by: bhsman
Vindicare101 wrote:As to the Infernus Pistol, if it were based on Dante's, that'd be a melta with an 8inch range, 4inch for double dice penetration roll..
Dante's Perdition Pistol is just a Meltagun with the Pistol rule, there's no 8 inches or anything.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Absolon wrote:Or could it be an image of something like this
I really hope there's more to it than just being a deformed smaller T-Hawk.
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Post by: BrookM
In the February WD Phil Kelly mentioned in his Planet Strike article that he playtested something whilst playing planet strike using nine dreadnoughts, along with the line "Take a guess how I did that"
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Post by: MinMax
BrookM wrote:In the February WD Phil Kelly mentioned in his Planet Strike article that he playtested something whilst playing planet strike using nine dreadnoughts, along with the line "Take a guess how I did that"
Vanilla Codex? With a Master of the Forge, you can field 9 Dreads in Planet Strike (6 Elite + 3 Heavy Support as Attacker, or 3 Elite + 6 Heavy Support as Defender).
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Post by: apwill4765
UltraPrime wrote:I'm lost somewhere.... Agreed, the releases have (so far) been MEQ-Non-MEQ. So, if BA is next, surely next is Non-MEQ? I wouldn't expect another Marine Codex this year, as getting 3 Codexes will be a bonus.
I wouldn't be surprised by a third release this year. . . April to January is a long stretch w/o a 40k codex. Last year we had May and October, a 5 month stretch. But the year before THAT (2008) we had January, May, and October releases. You're right though, a fourth might be too much to ask for. Ah well, I have my Guard to tide me over until BT get revamped.
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Post by: Ostrakon
apwill4765 wrote:UltraPrime wrote:I'm lost somewhere.... Agreed, the releases have (so far) been MEQ-Non-MEQ. So, if BA is next, surely next is Non-MEQ? I wouldn't expect another Marine Codex this year, as getting 3 Codexes will be a bonus.
I wouldn't be surprised by a third release this year. . . April to January is a long stretch w/o a 40k codex. Last year we had May and October, a 5 month stretch. But the year before THAT (2008) we had January, May, and October releases. You're right though, a fourth might be too much to ask for. Ah well, I have my Guard to tide me over until BT get revamped.
Here's hoping it's a long-postponed xeno race, like Necrons or Dark Eldar. I heard something a while back about Matt Ward writing the Necron codex, but I also remember that this was supposed to be a winter 2009 (and now an august 2010) release.
I wish GW had releases like WotC were, such that you knew what they were at least a year in advance.
In any case, Blood Angels are looking pretty awesome, I can't wait to field some. I just gotta find a color scheme I like, since the everything-red kinda bugs me. At the very least I'll make the shoulder armor ridges black.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I'm hoping for Necrons 2H '10. They need a rules update and army expansion more than any other army.
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Post by: Therion
In any case, Blood Angels are looking pretty awesome, I can't wait to field some. I just gotta find a color scheme I like, since the everything-red kinda bugs me
My Blood Angels are black and bone. Wonderful magic of being a 'successor chapter'.
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Post by: warboss
Therion wrote:In any case, Blood Angels are looking pretty awesome, I can't wait to field some. I just gotta find a color scheme I like, since the everything-red kinda bugs me
My Blood Angels are black and bone. Wonderful magic of being a 'successor chapter'.
Mine actually reverse the normal scheme. the regular guys are death company colors (black with white/red details) and the death co are mostly red. +1 for successor chapters!
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Post by: Jackmojo
I always liked the all red army look, like powered armoured Royal Marines...
Red coats FTW!
Jack
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Post by: Ostrakon
Therion wrote:In any case, Blood Angels are looking pretty awesome, I can't wait to field some. I just gotta find a color scheme I like, since the everything-red kinda bugs me
My Blood Angels are black and bone. Wonderful magic of being a 'successor chapter'.
Sweet, "Crimson Seraphs," here I come! In all seriousness, it's just the fact that the 'default' look looks lazy, because it's all red. At the very least the shoulder armor ridge should be a different color. There's an older article on GW that does it this way and they look much better.
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Post by: pduggie
Ostrakon wrote:Sweet, "Crimson Seraphs," here I come! In all seriousness, it's just the fact that the 'default' look looks lazy, because it's all red. At the very least the shoulder armor ridge should be a different color. There's an older article on GW that does it this way and they look much better.
Yeah, but then it depends on the ridge color if it looks good. I think the problem with Codex marines is that there will inevitably be a company color that looks lame with the overall base color scheme. I think that's why the blood angels have gone away from that in GWs mind.
Green? Grey? blech
Although now that I think of it, maybe that was for third company BA only?
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Post by: Kveldulv
pot debris wrote:At the very least I'll make the shoulder armor ridges black
+1
I played Blood Angels in 2ed and 3ed, and they will for me always be red armour, black shoulder trim and one black kneepad with company ensignia (a yellow tear looks good). Sergeants would have black shoulder pads with red trim and yellow chapter insignia.
Check out Masteroftheforge's BAs, they look seriously righteous: http://masteroftheforge.com/tag/bloodangels/
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Post by: rdlb
Yeah those are awesome! I love the look of the terminator gauntlets on the hands instead of the flex tube wrists.
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Post by: Khornatedemon
I always liked the black worked into the red myself. I also play a successor called the angels of the damned that have black shoulder pad insides, black hands, and the right leg from the knee down is all black.
I'm just hoping the BA return to being the kick ass assault army that got me playing them in 3rd.
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Post by: Grimhowl
I like what I am hearing regarding the whole Faustian/Sanguinarian conflict. It gives them more depth and I'm all for that. As someone who put helmets on every marine in my successor chapter, the Angels Invictus, I think it's pretty clear they are fighting the red thirst.
The assault lander I'm intrigued by, but it will greatly depend on what the model looks like and how many points/how much cash it costs. Same goes for some of the elite assault options, they could be amazing, if they have nicely sculpted wings and armor sculpted like Dante's I'm in, even if just to paint them and use them occasionally.
Not so much worried about tac squads getting land raiders, not sure it would be cost effective points wise to do that too much anyway if it becomes true, but it may be a sign they are trying to make tac squads seem interesting in comparison to standard assault marines being available as troops.
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Post by: reds8n
Slight update and clarification :
The forthcoming Venerable dreadnought plastic kit does NOT have the options to make a Furiouso/2 DCCW build in it.
Does give you a nice plasma cannon option though.
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Post by: Gargskull
Absolon wrote:Or could it be an image of something like this
Not bad, how likley is it that this is what the BA lander thing will look like?
Aside from being red of course. 
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Post by: dereksatkinson
Here is hoping the Upgrade sprue comes with plenty of Inferno Pistols. I know i'll need at least 12 of the buggers..
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Post by: Alpharius
Gargskull wrote:Absolon wrote:Or could it be an image of something like this
Not bad, how likley is it that this is what the BA lander thing will look like?
Aside from being red of course.
Since this seems to match the mystery profile from the Portuguese link, I'd say odds are pretty good?
And NO 2nd Dread CCW in the new plastic dread kit is lame.
It should have had, in plastic, all the options the regular kit does NOT contain!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
reds8n wrote: The forthcoming Venerable dreadnought plastic kit does NOT have the options to make a Furiouso/2 DCCW build in it.
Does give you a nice plasma cannon option though.
So no plastic Fury? Or a separate plastic Fury? Not a difficult kit to make with MM & 2nd DNCCW!
Plasma Cannon is nice I guess. Hope it's not cartoony like the FW bit.
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Post by: Alpharius
Isn't the Plasma Cannon one of the more useless weapons to take on a dread though?
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Post by: rdlb
dereksatkinson wrote:Here is hoping the Upgrade sprue comes with plenty of Inferno Pistols. I know i'll need at least 12 of the buggers..
I've already begun chopping up melta guns and gluing the barrels and tanks to bolt pistols....
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alpharius wrote:Isn't the Plasma Cannon one of the more useless weapons to take on a dread though?
It *looks* good.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
reds8n wrote:Slight update and clarification :
The forthcoming Venerable dreadnought plastic kit does NOT have the options to make a Furiouso/2 DCCW build in it.
Does give you a nice plasma cannon option though.
Don't suppose you know if it'll have a TL AC arm, do you?
I don't understand what all the fuss about not getting a plastic Furioso box is all about. I mean, use a standard DCCW left arm with an Ironclad set (maybe even find an extra set of the nice Ironclad DCCW fingers to use on the standard DCCW arm) and Bob's your uncle. What am I missing here? A BA specific sarcophagus cover? Please.
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Post by: Khornatedemon
I also expect a forgeworld dread to come along with the BA release as, IIRC, they dont have one yet.
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Post by: skrulnik
Death By Monkeys wrote:reds8n wrote:Slight update and clarification :
The forthcoming Venerable dreadnought plastic kit does NOT have the options to make a Furiouso/2 DCCW build in it.
Does give you a nice plasma cannon option though.
Don't suppose you know if it'll have a TL AC arm, do you?
I don't understand what all the fuss about not getting a plastic Furioso box is all about. I mean, use a standard DCCW left arm with an Ironclad set (maybe even find an extra set of the nice Ironclad DCCW fingers to use on the standard DCCW arm) and Bob's your uncle. What am I missing here? A BA specific sarcophagus cover? Please.
How about not having to buy 2 kits to build one?
The right-side DCCW should be in a kit besides the Ironclad unless Furiosos are retconned into them.
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Post by: Alpharius
skrulnik wrote:Death By Monkeys wrote:reds8n wrote:Slight update and clarification :
The forthcoming Venerable dreadnought plastic kit does NOT have the options to make a Furiouso/2 DCCW build in it.
Does give you a nice plasma cannon option though.
Don't suppose you know if it'll have a TL AC arm, do you?
I don't understand what all the fuss about not getting a plastic Furioso box is all about. I mean, use a standard DCCW left arm with an Ironclad set (maybe even find an extra set of the nice Ironclad DCCW fingers to use on the standard DCCW arm) and Bob's your uncle. What am I missing here? A BA specific sarcophagus cover? Please.
How about not having to buy 2 kits to build one?
The right-side DCCW should be in a kit besides the Ironclad unless Furiosos are retconned into them.
That would be what you missed, I think.
I can see why GW wouldn't like that though...
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Post by: jerbear1071
Commander Endova wrote:I agree. Estimates of five or six Dreadnought variants seem ridiculous. I think it'll be 4, maximum. Regular, Furioso (replacing Ironclad), Venerable, and the unique Moriar. As for quantity, can't be more than 6, by taking a MotF or some equivalent.
I dunno, the teaser in the latest WD makes mention of a Furioso LIBRARIAN variant- even says" a psyker entombed in a dreadnought"... there could well be a ton of dreads in there!
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Come on, guys - seriously? That's the biggest complaint? Nid players are trying to figure out ways to convert their army's newest MVP model because it doesn't exist at all and you're complaining about buying a box set and then having to order another arm from one of the online bitz suppliers? I mean, I'm not advocating GW's business model here, but I'd rather GW put out a new model like the Tantalus than come out with a third loyalist Dreadnought. That's a good way to get Chaos players frothing at the mouth. They're still waiting on a replacement for the PoS Chaos Dread they've been stuck with. What? They can use a loyalist Dreadnought and chaosify it with the Chaos Vehicle sprue? But that'd require two kits!
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Post by: Alpharius
Wait, are you in here complaining about the complaining now?
The point of this particular complaint is that IF they are going to take the time and effort to release a NEW PLASTIC Dreadnought kit, it should contain all of the codex options.
OK?
When it comes time for them to release all those other kits, well, then we'll be talking about them too.
Just like you can only play the games on the schedule, well, we can 'only' talk about the kits announced.
At least, those are the ones we should talk about.
Everything else is whispering in the wind...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Death By Monkeys wrote:Don't suppose you know if it'll have a TL AC arm, do you?
I don't understand what all the fuss about not getting a plastic Furioso box is all about. I mean, use a standard DCCW left arm with an Ironclad set (maybe even find an extra set of the nice Ironclad DCCW fingers to use on the standard DCCW arm) and Bob's your uncle. What am I missing here? A BA specific sarcophagus cover? Please.
TL AC should be on the (eventual) Chaos Dread version with Chaos DNCCW & sarcophagus to match. Ironclad DNCCWs doen't match each other, nor the basic DNCCW, so they won't look as good. And yes, the BA should get their own BA-specific sarcophagi (1 basic BA, 1 BA Fury). Oh yeah, plastic Chaos Dreads have been available for years!
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Ok - that was weird. First it looked like I had double-posted, so I went and deleted what I thought was the double. Then it looked like it I had only made one post and had deleted it...
Anyway - it's a good point that for the convenience of us gamers that GW should include all the various options with their kits. But as we all know what we, as gamers, think GW should do and what GW actually does are often vastly different things. You know, we've seen on the price list that there's something that may be an upgrade sprue - what if that contains a matching DCCW, sarcophagus covers, shoulder pads, etc. Much like the Orks' Death-roller sprue?
Here's my question for my own pre-BA codex release shopping: just how many dreads of different types should I stock up on? I mean, just because there's a potential to run 9 doesn't necessarily mean that one should. I'm thinking that running 6 is about as many as you're really going to want to do so that you still have room to run other BA goodness. I'm just not sure if ensuring that I've got matching DCCWs for all of them is necessary.
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Post by: Niccolo
I have a couple questions about the upcoming BA codex that I hope someone can help me out with. I've been trying to pay attention to all the rumors, but they (like most) have taken such a convoluted path that I may have missed if these have been answered. Of course, if they haven't been answered yet and someone in the know would like to fill us in, I'd be happy with that too.
1: The new Predator kit. Is there a difference to the base model (like sturdier sponsons) and are the Baal parts just plastic copies of the current metal parts or new designs.
2: Chaplains. Will they still be strung together with the DC (like 2nd or 3rd ed)? Will there be more freedom to take things like Terminator and Bike Chaplains or are Sanguinary Priests being included to fill that roll again?
Thanks
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I'm waiting for the BA Codex before I finalize. I have several Dreads, and it's tentatively looking like it'll be:
3x AC&PF Dreads as SM Elite / BA Heavy
1x 2CCW Dread as BA Fury
1x tLC&PF Dread as BT Elite
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Post by: Chamleoneyes
What do you think the odds are of the Librarian dread taking up an HQ slot? Also anyone have a clue on how many points the Tantalus lander is gonna cost?
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Post by: Gargskull
Chamleoneyes wrote:What do you think the odds are of the Librarian dread taking up an HQ slot? Also anyone have a clue on how many points the Tantalus lander is gonna cost?
Most likley it'll occupy the large transport price catergory for land riaders, valks, battlewagons and monoliths.
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Post by: reds8n
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Don't suppose you know if it'll have a TL AC arm, do you?
I don't understand what all the fuss about not getting a plastic Furioso box is all about. I mean, use a standard DCCW left arm with an Ironclad set (maybe even find an extra set of the nice Ironclad DCCW fingers to use on the standard DCCW arm) and Bob's your uncle. What am I missing here? A BA specific sarcophagus cover? Please.
It doesn't I'm afraid, Assault Cannon, Plasma Cannon and Twin Linked Lascannons for the right arm, standard DCCW for the left arm. Conflicting reports about the left arm missile launcher or not.
It's got the sunken helmed head front -- like the grey knight models -- the "chin hider" -- with, I believe a couple of different head variants.
It's nice enough, plasma cannon looks like a bigger version of the dev one, but...hmm... it's a bit... whelming when you see it. Not under or over..just whelming.
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Post by: Gargskull
How can something be just whelming? 
Do you think the Ven dred will be a good painter's piece? Nice details/decorations, etc?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Compared to the FW one, how's it look?
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Post by: reds8n
FW ones are better IMO.
This one is pretty much the standard plastic dread kit, with some engravings, purity seals, notice boards and the like on each front side piece and "shins". Tarted up standard kit is all to be honest IMO.
Disclaimer : I've only seen the one build, there might be some more variation available, but nothing too OTT or jaw dropping methinks.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Why did they take the chance to make a new plastic Dread and not include all the weapon options. That seems really wasteful and stupid to me.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
So now there are 4 different plastic loyalist Dreads and even combining them all you still can't build every option in the Codex.
They could at least do a splash release with a spiky bit sprue included, so we could pretend that Chaos has a plastic Dread, too.
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Post by: Flashman
reds8n wrote:FW ones are better IMO.
This one is pretty much the standard plastic dread kit, with some engravings, purity seals, notice boards and the like on each front side piece and "shins". Tarted up standard kit is all to be honest IMO.
Disclaimer : I've only seen the one build, there might be some more variation available, but nothing too OTT or jaw dropping methinks.
Bet all those extra bits will increase the cost of it by £10. Remember the Chaos Bastion 
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Post by: Gargskull
Alpharius wrote:Gargskull wrote:Absolon wrote:Or could it be an image of something like this
Not bad, how likley is it that this is what the BA lander thing will look like?
Aside from being red of course.
Since this seems to match the mystery profile from the Portuguese link, I'd say odds are pretty good?
Sweet, I have some planz in mind for this thing.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Alpharius wrote:Gargskull wrote:Absolon wrote:Or could it be an image of something like this
Not bad, how likley is it that this is what the BA lander thing will look like?
Aside from being red of course.
Since this seems to match the mystery profile from the Portuguese link, I'd say odds are pretty good?
It matches the rumours, it matches the silhouette in WD.
But there's still a little voice at the back of my mind telling me it's too good to be true.
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Post by: Therion
But there's still a little voice at the back of my mind telling me it's too good to be true.
Does it have three TL lascannons for an inexplicable points cost?
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Post by: Brother SRM
That "Tantalus" picture still looks like an artist's interpretation of a Thunderhawk. Looks like it has the same level of abstraction a lot of BL books do compared to their original models. There are a lot of subtle differences, but it by and large just looks like a Thunderhawk where they removed the main gun.
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Post by: Alpharius
Brother SRM wrote:That "Tantalus" picture still looks like an artist's interpretation of a Thunderhawk. Looks like it has the same level of abstraction a lot of BL books do compared to their original models. There are a lot of subtle differences, but it by and large just looks like a Thunderhawk where they removed the main gun.
That certainly what I thought originally, until I saw the 'mystery silhouette' picture from the Portuguese White Dwarf (?) thread linked above...
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Post by: Carnuscaedes
Translated from the german site by Vovin from warseer then resource redistributed to here!
Ok, here a hand-made translation. The internet translations are rather ... inconvenient.
I omit the chit-chat at the beginning and summarize the relevant parts instead of doing of a word for word translation.
1. article: Mephiston
http://www.40kings.de/?p=695
- costs: 325 points + x (this is a guess of the authors and not part of the actual rumours)
- stats:gigantic, better than before
- special rules: ATSKNF, IC, Lord of Death, psyker, knows all 6 psychic powers
- weapons: Scarlet Fang, Force weapon, Plasma pistol, grenades, Psychic hood
- Lord of Death: no Red Thirst (army wide special rule, if leadershiptest fails wehen enemy is in 12" unit has rage), no Furious charge (otherwise army wide special rule), instead: Feel no Pain, Fearless, Eternal Warrior
-Scarlet Fang: can replace instant death power with one of the other psychic powers. He can use this power without psychic test and it no longer counts as psychic power but instead as normal special rule. A psychic hoodfor example is useless against this power.
2. article: Furioso Librarian:
http://www.40kings.de/?p=704
- costs: expensive, way more than a Dreadnought (unclear if this is also speculation or part of the rumour)
- stats: common Dreadnought stats with some small spikes. He is a Furioso too.
- rules: walker, Furioso Supremo, Red Thirst, Furious Charge
- items: 2 dreadnought ccw, one with melta gun, one with stormbolter, smoke launcher, searchlight
normal options like heavy flamer
- can take 2 powers: Quickening, Might of Heroes, Shockwave
- transports: Drop Pod, Tantalus Drop Ship
- Furioso Supremo: can cast one power with leadership 10. He takes a glancing hit from every Peril of the warp attack. Otherwise he doesn't count as psyker in every regard!
article 3: psychic powers:
http://www.40kings.de/?p=715
Quickening: used at the start of the turn, gives (only the psyker) beast movement. If the psyker is not infantery, he gets fleet. He has to be on the table to cast it (comment from me: to my understanding that means you can't use it in a transport). If Mephiston is casting this spell, his unit gets the faster movement too.
Blood Stasis: shooting power, 12" range, 5" blast, every non vehicle unit under the blast template counts as being in difficult terrain. If they move they get a S10 AP2 hit for every 1 on the difficult terrain test. If they shoot, they get a S5 AP- hit for every 1 on the roll to hit.
Might of Heroes: used at the start of the assault phase. one model in 6" (that includes the psyker) gets D3 extra attacks
Primarchs Grace: used at the start of the turn, Librarian and unit can ignore terrain until the end of the round
Living Darkness: shooting power, 6" range, 5" blast, stays in place until the start of the next Blood Angel turn. No line of sight can be traced through the marker except the targeting unit has Acute Senses USR
Shockwave: shooting power, vehicles in 12" get a S6 AP1 hit against its side armour. in 6" 2 hits and in 3" 3 hits. cover saves are not allowed.
Transfixing Gaze (Mephiston only): begin of the assault phase, hinders enemy to attack, like Genestealer Broodlord, on a draw nothing happens
Vortex of Blood (Mephiston only): can use it before he attcks. every model in base to base contact makes a Toughness test. If it fails it gets a wound. saves are allowed. If at least one wound was caused every successful hit roll from this on until the end of the round against Mephiston has to be rerolled.
CAVEAT EMPTOR! Hopefully gets the rumour wheel rollin' on this rumour wagon....
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Librarian Dread sounds very silly. The least they could do is give it a Force Weapon at base Dread Strength (S6).
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Post by: Jackmojo
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Chaplain Dread sounds very silly. The least they could do is give it a Force Weapon at base Dread Strength (S6).
That would be a silly Chaplain dreadnought...
Jack
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sorry, meant Librarian.
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Post by: Chamleoneyes
Maybe I missunderstood what I read about Mephiston. Is that saying that if you take him in your army all of your troops replace 'red thirst' and 'furious charge' for 'feel no pain", 'fearless' and 'Eternal Warrior"?
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Post by: Redemption
Chamleoneyes wrote:Maybe I missunderstood what I read about Mephiston. Is that saying that if you take him in your army all of your troops replace 'red thirst' and 'furious charge' for 'feel no pain", 'fearless' and 'Eternal Warrior"?
I think he meant that all BA have Red Thirst and Furious Charge, except Mephiston, who has Feel No Pain, Fearless and Eternel Warrior instead.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
So Mephiston no longer flies...eh
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Post by: Jackmojo
AgeOfEgos wrote:So Mephiston no longer flies...eh
Eh, moving as cavalry is probably better. Which he'll be able to if he gets all the described powers. I'll certainly imagine it as a sort of semi flying movement myself.
Jack
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Post by: Emrab
But for 325 points is he really worth taking in anything other than a 2000+ points game?
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Post by: Brother SRM
I'm really hoping whoever typed that up is dyslexic and Mephiston is only 235 points. There are some Wolf characters who are really up there points-wise, and this would completely take the cake. I could never understand why some extra-angry Librarian would cost so much more than Marneus freaking Calgar.
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Post by: Kingsley
Probably because rumor has it he is WS/BS 7, S/T 5, I 7, W 4, A 5, Ld 10, and has Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, and 2+ armor.
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Post by: rdlb
Calgar is a chump! Go Lord of Death Go!
Honestly, how can you not take him if he gives a veteran infantry unit the beast charge range, and his fang lets him bypass shadow of the warp or runes of warding..
Right on!!
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Post by: blood angel
He is going to need a better model. I really like the one we have now, but for this much beefcake he needs one that better matches the art.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Fetterkey wrote:Probably because rumor has it he is WS/BS 7, S/T 5, I 7, W 4, A 5, Ld 10, and has Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, and 2+ armor.
But does he have... love?
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Post by: Carnuscaedes
lord_blackfang wrote:
But does he have... love?
No... but he has something so similar it would take an entire forgeworld of Adeptus Biologians to determine the difference
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Post by: Emrab
rdlb wrote:Calgar is a chump! Go Lord of Death Go!
While I agree with this whole heartedly and it gets me wondering about Dante. If the Lord of Death is so bad  then shouldn't the Chapter Master of the BA be even more so? I mean Mephiston is the number 2 guy. Gives me hope for Dante but I feel as if we are going to suffer points shock with the two most kick leaders of any chapter.
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Post by: dumplingman
personally I find it hard to justify any model over 300 points that doesn't have an invul save no matter how good they are. I remember there was an early rumor that said he may have an option for terminator armor has this been quashed?
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Post by: rdlb
I think Dante is a badass of a different order. He can lead 1000 BA in tactical synergy, and his crazy rumor rule reflects that. Plus he is still pretty badass with that jp and +1 str axe. Maybe he'll have something like god of war too.
Mephiston's leadership qualities aren't up to CM standards.
Chapter Master Interviews:
"So what is your strongest character trait Mephiston?"
"Umm....I'm killcrazy, definitely killcrazy."
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Post by: Alpharius
rdlb wrote:I think Dante is a badass of a different order. He can lead 1000 BA in tactical synergy, and his crazy rumor rule reflects that. Plus he is still pretty badass with that jp and +1 str axe. Maybe he'll have something like god of war too.
Mephiston's leadership qualities aren't up to CM standards.
Chapter Master Interviews:
"So what is your strongest character trait Mephiston?"
"Umm....I'm killcrazy, definitely killcrazy."
What?
Mephiston's a Mod here?
Anyway, The Lord of Death has actually mastered his 'kill crazy', and that's what makes him a BA Mo- Fo.
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Hmmm mephiston + terminators moving as beasts = bad ass? You could set up first turn charges with that possibly. LRC moves 12", disembark 2", run D6, 12" charge for a minimum 27" range. Yikes
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Post by: Redemption
Khornatedemon wrote:Hmmm mephiston + terminators moving as beasts = bad ass? You could set up first turn charges with that possibly. LRC moves 12", disembark 2", run D6, 12" charge for a minimum 27" range. Yikes
Don't forget move 6". 32 + D6" charge range.
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Post by: Kingsley
That sounds great until you realize it costs 750 points at minimum.
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Post by: Kervin
Redemption wrote:Khornatedemon wrote:Hmmm mephiston + terminators moving as beasts = bad ass? You could set up first turn charges with that possibly. LRC moves 12", disembark 2", run D6, 12" charge for a minimum 27" range. Yikes
Don't forget move 6". 32 + D6" charge range.
I don't think you can move 6" after disembarking from a LRC that has moved 12", run yes, charge that is what an LRC is for, but move after the LRC has IDK (but I could be wrong).
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Post by: Fateweaver
You are right. The best you could do is 30" if you moved on a road, the worst would be 24".
18" move on road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet (for fleeting units) and than 6" charge. If you can't fleet the best you could do is 26".
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Post by: Jackmojo
Fateweaver wrote:You are right. The best you could do is 30" if you moved on a road, the worst would be 24".
18" move on road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet (for fleeting units) and than 6" charge. If you can't fleet the best you could do is 26".
Beasts and cavalry charge 12"
Jack
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Post by: Fateweaver
Oh yeah, forgot he apparently moves as cavalry.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
LRC - 12"
Disembark - 2"
Fleet - up to 6"
Charge - 12"
So up to a 32" charge arc. Crazy.
The thing about Mephiston not having an invulnerable save is not that a big deal to me. He was T5 back in the old 3rd edition codex as well. Now for 300+ points you would think that should include an invulnerable save if he is going to be the Blood Angels' número uno badass. He is going to have bad matchups with other special characters that have eternal warrior unless he will have some means of killing them outright (like the GKGM nemesis force weapon).
G
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Post by: reds8n
From Warseer and 100% correct..
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, will get a brand new and much better miniature upon release. He stands atop a small pile or rubble, feet together, with right arm pointing a Bolt Pistol and left arm at ease holding a Crozius topped with a 2-headed eagle. His armour is adorned with many rivets and purity seals. His right shoulder pad is a jawless skull, and his left sports an embossed Blood Angels icon. His torso has a harness for his Jump Pack which itself is adorned with chains and charms and has the Blood Angels icon embossed on top of both intake vents. His helmet is a haloed skull with pipes to the sides of the mouth, but this time the eyes have lenses and the halo is more subtle.
thanks to "The Voice" (.. ? !?) for this.
I still think Seth is a better model though.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
You're all forgetting a very important, but rather minute part of the rumored quickening psyker power listed on the previous page of this rumors thread.
It states that the Psyker (alone) gains movement of beast/calvary instead of standard infantry IF he is indeed standard infantry (I.E. Power/Artificer/Terminator armor), OR he gets fleet if he's not (I.E.: Jump Pack, or Bike). Mephiston gives the unit he's with the quickening too however, because let's face it. He's that bad@$$.
This would equate to the following movement variables.
Standard Librarian (Or Mephiston) Has a potential charge range of 18". 6" movement, 12" charge if he's just moving around the table on his own.
Out of a Land Raider, you have the following. 12" move, 2" consolodaton, 12" charge. So a grand total of 26" potential charge range. Quite impressive to be sure, but not 30+" impressive.
Nowhere have I seen any listing for fleet given to Mephiston or a standard Librarian either. Only if the Librarian isn't standard infantry do they gain fleet *Instead* of beast movement (12" charge, in other words).
Also, it makes specific note to state that the Librarian must be "on the table" and "At the start of the turn" meaning that the power may not be able to be cast while inside the transport. This should be noted because it may also state, in the final printing, that the librarian MUST cast it before movement starts, meaning that he can't ride in a landraider, disembark and then cast the power to get the extra movement. Not saying that's what it will say, but we should be prepared for all contingiencies I think.
Also, Reds8n, Any chance you've got some pictures of these shiney, new blood angels models? I'd be interested to see the new (and vastly improved from the sound of it) Lemarties, as I actually have a (nicely) painted old school Lemartes and it makes me cringe every time I look at it.
What of Dante and Mephiston? Any chance for updates on these classic miniatures? Not to say they're bad, but they are rather dated, and Dante suffers from the classic top-heavy syndrome of chaos raptors et-al.
Just some thoughts. Liking the rumors and hoping for more soon.
Take it easy,
-Red__Thirst-
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Post by: Fateweaver
Beasts/Cavalry have Fleet as per standard so Meph can move 6", Fleet D6 and then assault 12" for a possible 24".
Psy powers can be used in a vehicle but only on the squad/model in the vehicle if it's not a shooting attack, AFAIK. So no using Guide on a squad not in the WS as the WS doesn't have firing ports.
So out of a LR you have 12" move, 2" disembark, D6 fleet and 12" charge = 32" possible threat range. Add 6" to that if the LR moved at cruising speed along a road. Not to mention any power not used during shooting or assault is used "at the start of the turn before Movement begins". So obviously if you cast a power that effects your movement it would come at the start of the turn and last until either the end of your turn or until the start of your turn.
Tis a tricky one because while in a vehicle squads can't be targeted they do still count as "on the table" for the purpose of holding objectives so it will come down to the exact wording but IMO it's going to be worded to work the way I described.
After all, for more than the cost of a LR his movement enhancing spell had better actually enhance movement, whether he is in a vehicle or not.
As to being shown models it won't happen unless people want to get sued/lose jobs over violation of an NDA. If pics were allowed to be posted online Warseer would have had them up weeks ago, followed shortly thereafter by Dakka. As nobody is willing to show pics of models yet I'm guessing the NDA included that clause.
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Post by: Kingsley
Fateweaver wrote:Tis a tricky one because while in a vehicle squads can't be targeted they do still count as "on the table" for the purpose of holding objectives so it will come down to the exact wording but IMO it's going to be worded to work the way I described.
I think it will probably work regardless of wording, as psykers can use powers on units inside vehicles as long as the psyker is in the vehicle with the unit.
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Post by: Fateweaver
I'm drooling over a monster like Meph in a LR getting a first turn charge.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Fair enough on the showing pictures, just figgured I'd ask all the same, ya know?
As for Fleet being part of beasts/calvary, are you certain? I don't have my rulebook handy (at work at the moment sadly) but I seem to remember that units that moved as beasts/calvary still had to have the 'fleet' special rule in order to gain it, as that's a special rule vs. unit/movement type.
Not trying to be argumenitive, If that's the case, awesome. I'd check myself if I were at home w/ my rulebook handy but I just ask for clarification since I can't check.
I agree with you also on the casting in a transport. Though when I field my eldar (admittedly not often at the moment) I take the view that no powers that must be cast outside of the shooting phase (Guide, Fortune, and Doom specifically) can be cast at all while the farseer is inside of a wave serpent, and that's how I play it personally. Of course the shooting powers can't either if he's inside the wave serpent if he doesn't disembark, but should he be inside and disembark from a wave serpent, that turn only shooting powers can be used. This is to include targeting himself or his own squad. Again, no rulebook/codexes on me so I can't point to page numbers to explain my reasoning for this but I do play it this way based on the way I've read the rules. Mayhaps someone with their codex and rules handy could chime in on this topic later.
Back to the discussion of Blood Angels:
A quick tidbit I found that may prove interesting to some here and I haven't seen posted in the rumors thread here. If it was in a previous thread and I'm re-posting: Whoops
Tantalus Lander
Skimmer, Fast, Deep Strike
Front:13 Side:11 Rear:10 BS:4
Two assault cannons, and a forward twin-linked special weapon
Transport Capacity:
16 models (Terminators/Jump pack troops count double)
OR
5 bikes (attack bikes count double)
OR
1 dreadnought
Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-rumors-tantalus-lander.html
I'm guessing this puppy is going to cost at least 200 pts, probably more.
Thoughts?
Take it easy,
- RT-
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Post by: Gornall
Fateweaver wrote:I'm drooling over a monster like Meph in a LR getting a first turn charge.
In every single game... Somehow I think we're not being told everything, as that kind of stuff seems potentially unbalancing.
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Post by: Kingsley
I'll reiterate: the "Mephiston + LR + 5 Terminators" thing costs 750 points at minimum. It's scary, but uses so much of the army that it's not *that* scary.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.
18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").
Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.
Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.
Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
I for one would think Mephiston leading a squad of death company flying out of a land raider redeemer would be 'verrah verrah scarrah' looking.
Probably very expensive, on par with the terminator/Mephiston example Fetterkey just gave.. but man.. I for one would love to see it.
Just my thoughts, take it easy.
-RT-
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Post by: Fateweaver
I'd do it in an Apoc game where I might have 8k plus points to mess around with.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Oh man yea, watching that hit an ork green tide formation.. The sheer unadulterated carnage that would occur makes me almost giddy. Sure they'd die like dogs eventually, but I can see a good chunk of those ork boyz being taken down like wheat before a scythe before the squad is finally swamped and attritioned down.
I'm going to have to plan that for a future apoc game when my buddy brings his orks...
Good times, good times.
- RT-
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Post by: sonofruss
Fateweaver wrote:Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.
18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").
Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.
Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.
Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.
Jump pack troops can not ride in transports that is why there is the option to change the jump packs for a rhino in the codex and you can not remove Shrike's jump pack
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Post by: Alpharius
Ever since 5th took away the ability to consolidate into another combat, these things just aren't as scary anymore...
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Post by: Grarg
Alpharius wrote:Ever since 5th took away the ability to consolidate into another combat, these things just aren't as scary anymore...
But with Mephiston's rumored ability of casting a free psychic power that ignores psychic hoods is what make it cake.
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Post by: Gornall
Even without first turn, being able to tank shock/ram that far into the heart of the enemy and charge whatever you want is still pretty amazing.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
I mean, I guess it's because we all know what a LR can and can't do and we don't know much about the Tantalus, but I'm surprised no one's talking about Mephiston + Choppy Squad of Choice + Tantalus. We've been told that the BA army will be all about speed. Seems to me that, in general, BA are going to be all about Alpha Strike capability.
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Post by: Fateweaver
sonofruss wrote:Fateweaver wrote:Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.
18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").
Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.
Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.
Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.
Jump pack troops can not ride in transports that is why there is the option to change the jump packs for a rhino in the codex and you can not remove Shrike's jump pack
True about Shrike but he still grants the entire army Fleet so that is still doable even without Shrike in the Squad.
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Post by: Ostrakon
Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.
Necrons should be Fearless.
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Post by: Kirasu
Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.
Necrons should be Fearless.
You misspelled the word Stubborn
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Post by: Ostrakon
Kirasu wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.
Necrons should be Fearless.
You misspelled the word Stubborn
Heh, either one would be fine with me.
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Post by: Fateweaver
More info about DC and SP.
News from www.40kings.de on Death Company and Sanguinary Priests:
Death Company:
FOC: Elites (don't occupy a slot), unique
Cost: Somewhere around 25p per model
Size: 5 DC Marines
Profile: Regular marine profile, with more attacks
Equipment: CCW/Boltpistol, Artificer Armor, no Granades
Special Rules: ASKNF, FNP, FC, Fearless, Black Rage
Black Rage: Rage as per rulebook + constantly count as attacking for furious charge (until they lose combat).
Additional rules:
- If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.
- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.
- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).
- An Chaplain in 6" of the DC makes the lose Black Rage and gain Red Fury.
Sanguinius Priest:
Cost: Similar to an Obliterator
Profile: As a chaplain
FOC: HQ
Equipment: Power Armor, CCW/Boltpistol, Krak-/Fraggranades, Exsanguinator
(can buy Red Grail (around 30p), terminator armor, bike, jumppack, etc.)
Special Rules: ATSKNF, FC, Red Fury
Exsanguinator: Marines in 12" can ignore Red Fury OR Marines in 12" can take Red Fury test with 3D6; if they fail they gain prefered enemy for the rest of the players turn. Units that have 'rage' automaticly get prefered enemy.
Red Grail: Gives Sanguinius Priest and his squad FNP
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Post by: Therion
Maybe I'm slow to understanding what the deal is supposed to be, but 25 point Marines that have nothing but normal close combat attacks and a 2+ armour save and FNP that both get ignored by the very guns that are used to kill Marines in the first place?
One thing I find curious is that they may choose any of the transports, including the Tantalus. What is the Tantalus even actually? Is it some AV10 Dark Eldar Raider worth 50 points or under just like the rest of the SM transport options?
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Post by: dumplingman
@fatweaver. According to bolter and chainsword which had the same source as you, the DC cc weapon upgrades also become available if 1 or more normal or assault terminator squad are purchased.
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Post by: apwill4765
Therion wrote:Maybe I'm slow to understanding what the deal is supposed to be, but 25 point Marines that have nothing but normal close combat attacks and a 2+ armour save and FNP that both get ignored by the very guns that are used to kill Marines in the first place?
One thing I find curious is that they may choose any of the transports, including the Tantalus. What is the Tantalus even actually? Is it some AV10 Dark Eldar Raider worth 50 points or under just like the rest of the SM transport options?
Normal marines are what? 16/model? so for 9 pt/model you get:
More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge
sounds like a deal. . .
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Post by: Alpharius
I missed the DC getting a 2+ save bit!
Still, with jump packs, that's a lot of points...
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Post by: MinMax
Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.
- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.
- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).
This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise. "These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"
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Post by: apwill4765
My guess is, fluff-wise, that since the DC are drawn from the company's ranks, that a company with honor guard is more likely to have marines w/ power weapons succomb to the black rage and join the DC.
That part makes sense. . . Dev = more DC doesn't so much . . .
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Post by: Therion
More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge
sounds like a deal. . .
For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.
All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.
More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.
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Post by: Kirasu
apwill4765 wrote:My guess is, fluff-wise, that since the DC are drawn from the company's ranks, that a company with honor guard is more likely to have marines w/ power weapons succomb to the black rage and join the DC.
That part makes sense. . . Dev = more DC doesn't so much . . .
It makes perfect sense because devastators are basically useless in most Sm armies.. Might as well throw them into the death company so you get SOME use out of them!
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Post by: apwill4765
Therion wrote:
More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge
sounds like a deal. . .
For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.
All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.
More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.
Well, I'm glad we could write this codex off months before it comes out. That was a close one, I almost pre-ordered one!
40 attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.
EDIT: Didn't see that their attacks will be non-rending in the new dex. I don't like to see this. Trading rending for artificer armor is indeed lame.
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Post by: Fateweaver
FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons (except crack missles and plasma which not every army has access to in vast quantities).
DC will annoy the hell out of Nids, Orks, and Eldar (only morons take the overcosted Star Cannon) who normally have very little in the way of anti- MEQ at range.
DC won't use a slot; we don't know what options or what BA terminators will cost and with only 3 elite slots open it'll be nice to have the option to take DC without starving yourself anywhere else.
Glad to see you are judging a codex based on "rumors" and not on the gloss covered copy complete with full rules and points.
45 per with power weapons for lets say 4 attacks on the charge (RAS has 3 on the charge), I5, S5, as long as they keep winning combats they ALWAYS count as having the FC bonus so if they win the initial charge round but don't break or wipe their opponent they STILL get the FC bonus so in round 2 they are still S5 I5. 5 of them would then have 20 attacks, 10 hits, 7 dead due to PW's (or 6 dead PF/ SB terminators). Yeah it seems high but we don't know the cost of RAS or HS or EAS.
Sure vanilla terminators can get Fleet if you take a 160pt Shrike but maybe if a person is playing BA for, maybe perhaps the background and imagery and not just the newest and most powerful set of rules than they won't miss the fact that you can spend 160pts, use up one of your HQ slots, to get Fleeting Terminators.
Glad to see the rumors starting to weed out the potential bandwagoners.
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Post by: Therion
40 rending attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.
They lost rending.
What exactly is this unit for? They can't fight against any dedicated close combat units since they don't have invulnerable saves of any kind and are both very expensive and few in number. 50 points for 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge? That's choppy?
They will never survive retribution by shooting at close ranges once they've assaulted and killed a shooty unit. Just imagining these guys trying to open up Chimeras or Rhinos and getting shot to bitz is entertaining. They would need invulnerable saves and/or tons of wounds that you have to allocate all over the unit. Do you not understand that unlike all the other hardcore close combat units in 40K currently, the entire Death Company will die when one badass model with any kind of power weapon swings, not to mention a whole squad of them swinging.
They're glass cannons, and by cannons I mean BB guns. I guess there's some crutch yet to be revealed, like Tantalus costing 50 points and being an AV10 fast vehicle with an assault ramp for jump packers. Then GW doesn't have to remake Dark Eldar since the BA just take their role.
FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons
What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.
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Post by: Ostrakon
Therion wrote:
More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge
sounds like a deal. . .
For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.
All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.
More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.
I dunno, I have the opposite opinion of this codex so far.
Termies that move 12 inches and can sweep sound pretty freakin' sweet to me. Then again, I'm not a tournament player so my opinion is probably pretty skewed.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Therion wrote:40 rending attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.
They lost rending.
What exactly is this unit for? They can't fight against any dedicated close combat units since they don't have invulnerable saves of any kind and are both very expensive and few in number. 50 points for 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge? That's choppy?
They will never survive retribution by shooting at close ranges once they've assaulted and killed a shooty unit. Just imagining these guys trying to open up Chimeras or Rhinos and getting shot to bitz is entertaining. They would need invulnerable saves and/or tons of wounds that you have to allocate all over the unit. Do you not understand that unlike all the other hardcore close combat units in 40K currently, the entire Death Company will die when one badass model with any kind of power weapon swings, not to mention a whole squad of them swinging.
They're glass cannons, and by cannons I mean BB guns. I guess there's some crutch yet to be revealed, like Tantalus costing 50 points and being an AV10 fast vehicle with an assault ramp for jump packers. Then GW doesn't have to remake Dark Eldar since the BA just take their role.
FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons
What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.
Thank the gods I don't play in tournaments. Thank the gods that piecing everything together the BA are starting to sound like the army they should.
The rumor says "more attacks than RAS". What if they had 5 attacks on the charge? For 45-50pts they have JP's. Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy? It's like MEQ players bitching because a Wraithlord that moves 6" per turn can assault a tac squad and with no fist the squad cannot do anything but die. If you let a big scary thing assault your guys that can move 12" per turn than L2play.
Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.
Hmm, that would be so frakking awesome if the SW player is shooting all 20 ML's at my 5 DC marines and not blowing my Rhinos and Furiosos off the table. I'd be ecstatic if instead of shooting my Furiosos, LR's full of BA Terminators and Devs with HB/ ML's and my Baal Predators my IG opponent is shooting 40 ML's, 12 lascannons and 12 TL plasma guns at 5 guys with jump packs. Awesome.
With overcharged rhinos counting as fast I can move 18", be 6" from my opps lines and stop. If he ignores 4 or 5 Rhinos full of Tacticals sitting in his face to shoot 40 ML's at my 5 marines with backpacks than his IG squads will face the firing of 4 tac squads of one or 2 flamers and than getting assaulted.
With 2+ saves the only guns that really scare DC are las, plas and melta. ML's ignore their FNP but with AP3 the DC 2+ save makes them as resilient as terminators.
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Post by: Therion
Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy?
a) Because Nob Bikers, units in Land Raiders and Thunderwolves are all faster than the Death Company. The DC can't survive.
b) Because once you kill a unit thrown right at you you're facing an inevitable counter either by shooting or assault. The DC can't survive.
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Post by: apwill4765
Therion wrote:
What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.
I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day, and no, battle cannons WON'T get the job done in that case. 1/12 of wounds caused by AP3 weapons actually get through new DC, or 1/6 in the case of battle cannons. So assuming you hit and wound all ten DC, 1 or 2 die on average w/ a battle cannon, and <1 on average with any ap3 weapons that are less than str 8.
I agree though that losing rending sucks
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Post by: Therion
I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day
That talk is all fine and dandy and then reality hits and you're getting lashed into multiple plasma cannon templates and getting rapid fired by plasma gun veterans doing drive-bys etc etc. A 5+ invulnerable would be a lot better than the FNP and it's very questionable if the unit would be any good even then.
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Post by: apwill4765
Therion wrote:I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day
That talk is all fine and dandy and then reality hits and you're getting lashed into multiple plasma cannon templates and getting rapid fired by plasma gun veterans doing drive-bys etc etc. A 5+ invulnerable would be a lot better than the FNP and it's very questionable if the unit would be any good even then.
. . . what unit does hold up to plasma cannons / pg drive bys? I'd love to know so I can buy some.
I mean, I wish DC were W2 T5 2+/3++ A5 I7 FNP, Rending, MC, FC, PW for 5pt/model, "I win" buttons but I think you are expecting a bit too much for the pts, and being kind of negative here.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Therion wrote:Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy?
a) Because Nob Bikers, units in Land Raiders and Thunderwolves are all faster than the Death Company. The DC can't survive.
b) Because once you kill a unit thrown right at you you're facing an inevitable counter either by shooting or assault. The DC can't survive.
Nob Bikers are soooooooooo balanced too, aren't they?
Not to mention with Fists those DC are killing 1 Nob PER wound. Only the PK's in that squad are going to worry the DC. The rest of the attacks will more or less bounce off.
If they WIN they are I5, S5. Orks, other than nobs, have nothing else that will scare DC that much. Throw 30 orks at them in a counter-assault and you might kill them but you'll lose a lot of your Orks in the process. So a counter-assault, UNLESS it's with a 2nd nob biker squad, is not going to amount to much pain. Lootas will throw out lots of shots but assuming the max of 15 lootas getting the max # of shots that is going to amount to 1 dead DC marine.
They COULD end up being the lame duck in the codex but let's wait until we get a leaked .pdf or the actual codex before writing DC off.
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Post by: Therion
The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
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Post by: apwill4765
Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
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Post by: MinMax
apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Ass. Terminators are easily handled by Tyrant and 2-3 guard now.
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Post by: Therion
apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Assault Terminators hold up a lot better than the DC do because not only are they cheaper but they actually get saves, so that one is obvious. Nobz have tons of wounds, invulnerable saves, and wound allocation meaning a drive-by won't cripple the unit before it can get stuck in where it really hurts. Complicated Thunderwolves with two or three shields still costs under 400 points for 10 T5 wounds that get wound allocation and saves. Plasma Guns are always going to cause damage, but the entire DC might disappear to a single Veteran squad, while the other units that I mentioned will suffer no casualties at all (Terminators lose 1 model).
Ass. Terminators are easily handled by Tyrant and 2-3 guard now.
Easily? I can't see any reason why a Tyrant and its Guard would be particularly good against units that strike last anyway but get good saves, unlike say the Death Company who can't do anything to that squad you mentioned before it gets crippled.
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Post by: apwill4765
MinMax wrote:apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.
*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable
Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves
If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.
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Post by: Ostrakon
apwill4765 wrote:MinMax wrote:apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.
*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable
Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves
If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.
Well, I'll have to give him Seer council, but that's just what they're good at. In any case it should be easy to hide them behind a command razorback or something.
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Post by: Brother SRM
I sincerely doubt Death Company would have artificer armor. It doesn't feel right to have non-Terminator infantry in a Marine army with 2+ armor. On top of that, aren't Death Company sent to battle solely so they can die and redeem themselves? I doubt they'd be given the best armor in the chapter for that. Not having frags seems like a strange omission as well. I like that taking different units in your army gives them different abilities though. It's cool having that kind of synergy in your army, even if it's forced.
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Post by: MinMax
apwill4765 wrote:MinMax wrote:apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.
*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable
Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves
If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.
The only cover saves I included are self-generated, either by turbo-boosting or simply by virtue of being an Ork bike unit.
The problem with Death Company, the way I see it, is that they gained a bit of defensive capability but lost a lot of offensive capability. This, coupled with the fact that you are no longer shoe-horned into fielding Death Company, and the fact that a lot of their options rely on other, oddly selected units (Devastators) means that DC aren't going to be seen in competitive lists.
That's my take on it, according to these rumours. I'll leave my final judgment until I actually see the Codex.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Force enough saves on a unit they die no matter what they are wearing.
Against Tyrant they get 3+ but it's still a 33% chance to fail. Paroxysm is not nice to Terminators. They need 5's to hit in melee instead of 4's.
I've seen FRFSRF from lasguns take down 6 TH/ SS terminators and those are 2+ saves.
The limitation to 0-1 would mean that at most the Chapter is sacrificing 10 suits of armor (not to mention not all DC fail their mission and die I would assume). HG can have artificer armor and you can have up to 30 if you take Calgar. They are designed to break stuff. Automatically Appended Next Post: MinMax wrote:apwill4765 wrote:MinMax wrote:apwill4765 wrote:Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.
OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.
Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.
*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable
Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves
If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.
The only cover saves I included are self-generated, either by turbo-boosting or simply by virtue of being an Ork bike unit.
The problem with Death Company, the way I see it, is that they gained a bit of defensive capability but lost a lot of offensive capability. This, coupled with the fact that you are no longer shoe-horned into fielding Death Company, and the fact that a lot of their options rely on other, oddly selected units (Devastators) means that DC aren't going to be seen in competitive lists.
That's my take on it, according to these rumours. I'll leave my final judgment until I actually see the Codex.
Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/ SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.
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Post by: Jackmojo
I'll be okay with the devastator requirement so long as they get access to the reasonably priced heavy weapons that long fangs have...
Jack
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Post by: Fateweaver
I don't know why the hate on Devs.
LC Devs are overpriced but HB's and ML's are a very good buy IMO.
I'd rather face an extra LR with my Nids than a 2nd 10man ML Dev Squad.
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Post by: Alpharius
Guys, can we ratchet DOWN the drama in here?
Please, continue to debate the merits of a codex that isn't out yet but leave out the gratuitous 'face palms' and thinly veiled insults.
OK?
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Post by: Kveldulv
Fateweaver wrote:Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.
I hit a vehicle. I roll 6 for armour penetration. Then I roll the maximum 3 for rending. Combined with the FC str 5 I get a 14. I can't rip the LR apart. I can only jam its tracks, lop off a turret or scare its crew. How do you do it?
EDIT: Oddly, the last 10 posts didn't display when I wrote this. Sorry for being late!
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Post by: CrazyThang
Kveldulv wrote:Fateweaver wrote:Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.
I hit a vehicle. I roll 6 for armour penetration. Then I roll the maximum 3 for rending. Combined with the FC str 5 I get a 14. I can't rip the LR apart. I can only jam its tracks, lop off a turret or scare its crew. How do you do it?
EDIT: Oddly, the last 10 posts didn't display when I wrote this. Sorry for being late!
See by bare hands he actually meant power-fisted hands. Common mistake.
But on topic, will the sanguinary be able to get power weapons at all? (Sorry if I missed that they can, can't seem to recall it though.)
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Post by: Fateweaver
I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.
How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.
Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.
Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.
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Post by: apwill4765
Fateweaver wrote:I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.
How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.
Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.
Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.
My BA playing friend is dreading the new codex, because he is afraid it will break his list lol. The .pdf is definitely not a joke, and with Dante / Corbulo given DC preferred enemy and - ws to enemies and one wound ignored per round, they are freaking ridiculous in assault given that they get the charge.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Expensive combo and to use an example earlier "IG artillery would have a field day with that unit".
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Post by: apwill4765
Fateweaver wrote:Expensive combo and to use an example earlier "IG artillery would have a field day with that unit".
Well, Dante has his honour guard and corbulo is in a rhino, exposing only the DC, who get cover from the rhino. And unfortunately, I run mech vet without any Artillery, and if I am editing my list to deal with one unit. . . then the DC are a little more scary than they are given credit for, eh? The cool thing about the synergy between corbulo, dante, and BA soldiers in general is that they only need to be in proximity for most of the benefits of the SCs to apply. 530 pts is no little investment, but it still leaves plenty of room for 2 dreads, 3 mm bikes, MSU assault squads in rhinos, Dante's honor guard, and 3 Baal predators .
EDIT: bottom line is, it's a nasty list, and I wouldn't discount it; you will lose if you do.
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Post by: blood angel
The size, points and availability of these landers is the critical element here.
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Post by: apwill4765
blood angel wrote:The size, points and availability of these landers is the critical element here.
Also, whether or not they can scout / outflank, and if they are definitely assault vehicles, and if they can carry jump-pack models. But yea, I get what you mean.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kirasu wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.
Necrons should be Fearless.
You misspelled the word Stubborn
You misspelled the word "Squatted".
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
If you can take five Death Company Marines with weapons that ignore armor saves plus FC & FNP & 2+ armor saves they are going to be extremely broken. Personally I doubt they will get artificier armors as they are a bunch of madmen. The background would have to be significantly retconned to justify this buff. The 2+ means they will shred all the meta net SW lists running gads of ML toting Long Fangs built to beat the new 3+ Nid MCs... That would be quite the twist.
G
G
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Post by: Ostrakon
JohnHwangDD wrote:Kirasu wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.
Necrons should be Fearless.
You misspelled the word Stubborn
You misspelled the word "Squatted".
They get mentioned far too often in the fluff to be squatted. Many players hate them (although this seems to be more because of neglect on GW's part) but authors seem to love them. Hell, they even upstaged 'nids in their own codex.
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Post by: racta
I mostly always used a big squad of DC in every game. I loved the sheer danger factor, whether people let them rip their guys apart, or pulled "oh snap" maneuvers to get rid of them. Losing rending isnt a big deal if you can buy them assault weapons, the bigger issue is having to take a dev squad for more of them. If that's true I'll just have to change how I play them, and use a smaller unit.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Fateweaver wrote:I've seen FRFSRF from lasguns take down 6 TH/SS terminators and those are 2+ saves.
That's an anecdote and as such, not useful in this or any other statistics-driven conversation. Fateweaver wrote:Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.
Tell that to my Penal Legion made up of 5ft guys in leg irons and jumpsuits.
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Post by: Neconilis
Fateweaver wrote:ML's ignore their FNP but with AP3 the DC 2+ save makes them as resilient as terminators.
Missile launchers don't ignore FNP, FNP is only cancelled out by AP2 or better ranged attacks.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Or attacks whose S is 2xT. Rumor has it DC stay at T4. Hence, no FNP if hit by a Krak Missle.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)
I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.
It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.
Of course all of these injuries do cause eventual death to the marine more often than not, but not before they reap a heavy toll on whomever they're fighting.
Just some thoughts on that.
Also, check this out. I posted it on page 7, but some people (Therion) seem to have missed it. So I'll repost it again for gits and shiggles.
Tantalus Lander
Skimmer, Fast, Deep Strike
Front:13 Side:11 Rear:10 BS:4
Two assault cannons, and a forward twin-linked special weapon
Transport Capacity:
16 models (Terminators/Jump pack troops count double)
OR
5 bikes (attack bikes count double)
OR
1 dreadnought
Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-rumors-tantalus-lander.html
I'm guessing this puppy is going to cost at least 200 pts, probably more. We'll see.
Take it easy.
- RT-
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Post by: Neconilis
Fateweaver wrote:Or attacks whose S is 2xT. Rumor has it DC stay at T4. Hence, no FNP if hit by a Krak Missle.
Correct, I often forget that, of course my opponents often remind me. I'll remember it myself one of these days ;-)
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Post by: Therion
I'm guessing this puppy is going to cost at least 200 pts, probably more. We'll see.
I'm not sure why a unit like that even gets added. It's a Wave Serpent/Falcon, without the holo-fields. Weak, weak, weak. If you can buy 7 Rhinos for the price of one Tantalus, or get better guns and more armor for pretty much the same price, it sure is awful. It all comes down to the points cost. If it costs 120-150 points I'm sure it will be used somewhat. If it costs much more than that, GW's planned megabucks Tantalus sales go byebye.
The funniest thing is you pay 10 points per Marine for jump packs (mobility upgrades) and still have to buy a transport for them. It's just a terrible concept.
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Post by: Chamleoneyes
Sounds like 2 of my Heavy slots are already going to be taken up. 1 for the Devastors so I can have 10 DC, and 1 for my LR to hold the DC. It almost seems like we're going to be forced to build our lists around DC.
My guess is that Tantalus will start around 100pts, and end up around 150 after weapon and upgrade purchases. Seeing that it is armoured like a Hammerhead or Predator, but has transport capacity rather then heavy weaponry.
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Post by: apwill4765
Red__Thirst wrote:Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)
-RT-
Slight clarification here. FnP is bypassed by AP2, AP1, 2xT, and CC-no save wounds, only. Bypassing armor does not necessarily guarantee no FnP, which I believe is a change from 4th. Example: A model with 4+ save, T4 and FnP will benefit from a FnP save against a wound caused by a Str 6 AP 3 weap, even though he would not get an armor save.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?
G
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Post by: Ostrakon
Green Blow Fly wrote:SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?
G
10 marines, 5 honor guard, 1 IC?
8 Termies?
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Post by: CrazyThang
Red__Thirst wrote:Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)
I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.
It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.
Of course all of these injuries do cause eventual death to the marine more often than not, but not before they reap a heavy toll on whomever they're fighting.
Just some thoughts on that.
-RT-
I don't see how an armor save of 2+ represents their ability to feel less pain... seems like they covered that by FnP. A higher toughness would make sense but ya know, what can ya do? Just throwing my thoughts on the matter out there, not trying to be provocative or anything.
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Post by: Fateweaver
It's a very good explanation (at least better than the assumption that they all have artificer armor).
Sisters have 3+ save and it's called "power armor" but it's not the same type of power armor that Marines wear.
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Post by: jbunny
Fateweaver wrote:I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.
How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.
Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.
Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.
The Blood Angels Novel describes 1 Death Company member destroying a Chaos Dred with just his power sword.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Power swords cut through armor (I still think all power weapons should give a bonus against armor as they are designed to cut through anything) so again Rending had nothing to do with it.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Chamleoneyes wrote:Sounds like 2 of my Heavy slots are already going to be taken up. 1 for the Devastors so I can have 10 DC, and 1 for my LR to hold the DC. It almost seems like we're going to be forced to build our lists around DC.
My guess is that Tantalus will start around 100pts, and end up around 150 after weapon and upgrade purchases. Seeing that it is armoured like a Hammerhead or Predator, but has transport capacity rather then heavy weaponry.
What are you going to bring to make them ignore my Sister's invulnerable saves and derisive giggling?
:-P Possibly hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's...
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Post by: Brother SRM
Green Blow Fly wrote:SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?
G
Maybe the Fallout-esque Baal Initiates? Would be interesting for a Marine army to take hordes of 4+ save dudes.
It would also be interesting to steal Black Templars' thunder again, but whatevs.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Yeah for sure
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Post by: CrazyThang
Fateweaver wrote:It's a very good explanation (at least better than the assumption that they all have artificer armor).
Sisters have 3+ save and it's called "power armor" but it's not the same type of power armor that Marines wear.
I wouldn't say anywhere close to "very good" but we will just have to agree to disagree about this because everyone's perception of what their
soldiers are doing "in game" per say is different.
Ok back to BAs!
what about that rumor about taking termies instead of honor guard for the bonus, anything come of that?
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Post by: number9dream
Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.
I'm not gonna comment on whether DC are terrible or awesome because, frankly, I have a lot of catching up to do on this topic... However, don't you think it's somewhat stupid to make a unit non-competitive purely for the hell of it? Can't a unit be BOTH pretty good and fluffy? Ya, it's hard to end up with several options that are exactly equal, but saying "oh we never meant for this unit to be competitive" is such a cop-out. MinMax wrote:Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.
- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.
- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).
This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise. "These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"
Yeah, this sounds really lame, I'm hoping it's just a case of chinese whispers, where a sensible rule got turned on its head after a few repetitions.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Fateweaver wrote:Death Company
0-1 non-slot Elites
5 DC, ~25 pts/model
BP&CCW, Sv2+
ASKNF, FNP, FC, Fearless,
Black Rage: Rage, WFB Frenzy-like Furious Charge
- If 2+ Tactical Squads, DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander Transport.
- If 1+ Assault Squads, DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) pts each.
- If 1+ Devastator Squads, DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1+ Honor Guard, DC may buy PW, PF, and LCs (for the usual prices).
- Chaplain <6" of the DC makes the lose Black Rage and gain Red Fury.
This is pretty decent, actually.
Rule-wise: Sv2+ & FNP is pretty good surviability, and Furious, Rage & Frenzy stack nicely. A reasonable ruleset.
Cost-wise: 18 pts Veteran, +3 Sv2+, +3 FNP, +3 FC, +1 Fearless, -2 Rage / +2 Frenzy = 18 + 10 = 28 pts nominal. Factoring a grouped option, I think they're fairly priced.
Options: It's annoying that everything is linked, new GW SC-style, but I have no issues with them per se. Assault Squad or Tacs must be Troops, so DC will have an mobility option. Devastators are a oddity to link the size, but no major problem (I'll field cheap HB or flexible ML Devs). Special CCWs are good, but the goodness of Honor Guard will be an important question.
Overall, I'm good with this. DC aren't mandatory, aren't random, and aren't unlimited in size. That means players can build the DC that they want as a dedicated unit.
As an aside, I wonder if GW will make more units option-linked to other units. *cough*C: Inquisition*cough*
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Post by: Fateweaver
number9dream wrote:
Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.
I'm not gonna comment on whether DC are terrible or awesome because, frankly, I have a lot of catching up to do on this topic...
However, don't you think it's somewhat stupid to make a unit non-competitive purely for the hell of it? Can't a unit be BOTH pretty good and fluffy?
Ya, it's hard to end up with several options that are exactly equal, but saying "oh we never meant for this unit to be competitive" is such a cop-out.
MinMax wrote:Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.
- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.
- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).
This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise.
"These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"
Yeah, this sounds really lame, I'm hoping it's just a case of chinese whispers, where a sensible rule got turned on its head after a few repetitions.
If something doesn't work against ANY unit out there it's not competitive. If it works against at least one unit than it can be considered competitive. Problem with most people is their idea of competitive is that "it must destroy anything and everything". When you get several units like that it ALWAYS comes down to mathhammer and that ruins the game.
DC will at most cost 280 for 10 without specials/power weapons. It doesn't take a slot on the Force Org and more importantly it probably means that the cost of the DC are not "hidden" within the rest of the army. It's why DC suck now. Can't rely on rending (I personally would take a fist over rending any day of the week) and if you don't WANT to take the DC you might as well since you are inherently paying for them elsewhere.
They might be trash but again, barring the obvious cost in points they are essentially "free" as they are an "elite" type unit that doesn't take one of 3 valuable slots and by just varying your army list up somewhat can tailor them how you want them.
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Post by: Gornall
They look like the second coming of Vanguard Vets to me.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Gornall wrote:They look like the second coming of Vanguard Vets to me.
More or less, but rather than Vanguard's Heroic Intervention being a one-shot only if DSing, the DC rules are continuous: Sv2+, FNP, Rage, FC are always active; Frenzy Fury is usually active as well.
IMO, DC are categorically superior to Vanguard for the points, due to the greater overall utility and survivability. One Battlecannon shot wipes the Vanguard, but the DC shrug it like Termies.
This makes sense, because SM are fundamentally a shooty mech army, so overpay (by a lot) for their JPs. BA are an assault army, so their assault elites like DC are expensive but good.
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Post by: Gornall
Yeah, they will be better than VGVs for sure. VGVs actually aren't horrible if you resist the urge to spend too much on them. I think DC will be similar... if you don't overspend on them they can be built into a solid unit.
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Post by: Neconilis
I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.
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Post by: Therion
BA are an assault army, so their assault elites like DC are expensive but good.
That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+ FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.
So what about the Tantalus? Let's talk about that some more. A transport you're supposed to buy for models you already bought jump packs for?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Neconilis wrote:I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.
Sv2+ is quite good, considering how much AP3 is usually out there. And Rending isn't reliable. The big thing is that they can buy PWs and PFs if you take HG. Perpetually FC PWs and PFs are very solid. ____ Therion wrote:That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.
In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM), so those same 10 DC would cost 400 pts. For the same 400 pts, new BA would have 3 PFs, 3 PWs, and 4 CCWs. That's a much better loadout than 10 Rending. ____ BTW, it's looking like the BA DC build (assuming you're going to take one) is starting to build itself: - HQ = Chaplain - Elite = DC, HG (for DC PWs) - Troops = 2+ AM / Tacs - Heavy = 1 Devs (for 6..10 DC) That's a pretty decent commitment of the FOC. The only real question is whether the DC army has Transport or JPs.
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Post by: jbunny
The only thing I can not understand is why the DC size would be tied to Devs. Or is it GW wanting to sell more models. Right now I don't take any, I either run 2-3 Baals or Landraiders.
Guess if I want a large DC, I could run a 5-man Dev squad with no heavy weapons.
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Post by: Ostrakon
JohnHwangDD wrote:Neconilis wrote:I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.
Sv2+ is quite good, considering how much AP3 is usually out there. And Rending isn't reliable. The big thing is that they can buy PWs and PFs if you take HG. Perpetually FC PWs and PFs are very solid.
____
Therion wrote:That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.
In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM), so those same 10 DC would cost 400 pts. For the same 400 pts, new BA would have 3 PFs, 3 PWs, and 4 CCWs. That's a much better loadout than 10 Rending.
____
BTW, it's looking like the BA DC build (assuming you're going to take one) is starting to build itself:
- HQ = Chaplain
- Elite = DC, HG (for DC PWs)
- Troops = 2+ AM / Tacs
- Heavy = 1 Devs (for 6..10 DC)
That's a pretty decent commitment of the FOC. The only real question is whether the DC army has Transport or JPs.
Wait, I was under the impression that you got some of them for "free" in the current 'dex.
Like if you had 2 tac squads, an assault squad, and an honor guard, you got 4 for 'free'.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Free =/= free. Everything is like 5pts more or so PER model over vanilla marines. I believe Tacticals work out to like 18-20pts PER Marine.
That is the problem I have with the current DC. Even if you don't want them you are still paying for the first 5 in essance. That and Rending is not reliable and far worst than PW/PF's/LC's.
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Post by: Ostrakon
Fateweaver wrote:Free =/= free. Everything is like 5pts more or so PER model over vanilla marines. I believe Tacticals work out to like 18-20pts PER Marine.
That is the problem I have with the current DC. Even if you don't want them you are still paying for the first 5 in essance. That and Rending is not reliable and far worst than PW/PF's/LC's.
hence the quotation marks
But they sound overpriced, especially once factoring in 'unlocking' the full squad.
They should have options at a massive discount if I have to pay to unlock them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Red__Thirst wrote:
I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.
It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.
That is almost always described as an invuln save though.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Ostrakon wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM),
Wait, I was under the impression that you got some of them for "free" in the current 'dex.
Like if you had 2 tac squads, an assault squad, and an honor guard, you got 4 for 'free'.
Compare the cost of 5 BA AM (with 1 "free" DC) against the cost of 5 SM AM. The difference (adding 1 DC) is 40 pts last I checked, so the DC guy was costed in at 40 pts. If the DC model really were free, then the BA AM and SM AM would cost the same.
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