FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns

On the topic of DC. Its pretty easy to negate rage, simply move them LAST and block their LOS somehow then you can move them however you want.. Jump them out of a transport, then get back in as soon as you can

Darknite wrote:there's no additional cost for a substantial upgrade to the unit

Perhaps the issue is that LRs are generally overcosted at 250 pts, so adding DS as an ability brings it back in line?

Or does the BA LR cost the same as a CSM LR?

Er, deepstriking Land Raiders is, at best, a marginal ability unless they have some way of intentionally delaying reserves so that the majority of the army can clear a landing zone turn 2-3 for the LR to drop in on.

Simply hucking LR hulls onto the table is just a good way to get yourself into your opponent's melta range with less risk on his part.

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes, so what?

That list Dreadshane posted (4 las/plas razorbacks with assault marines in them 3 dakka baals and 3 dakka preds with 3 sanguinary's) isn't unbeatable but it is still a formidable list.

Considering my orks have no plasma or melta they're going to be hard pressed to beat it for one.

My SW have a much better chance but still have to contend with the rhino popping power of 4 lascannons, 3 autocannons, 3 assault cannons, 4 plasma guns and all those inferno pistols before getting charged by the 2attack FnP and Furious charge troops.

FNP will be a valuable addition to units like Terminators with TH/SS, as it is usually the buckets of dice rolled for small stuff (bolters and lasguns) that eventually make them fail their saves. This means the opponent is going to have to delegate the killing to the heavier weapons, keeping them off of other targets. It works in with target saturation theories (at least in my head it does!).

Can anyone confirm if the sanguinary guard deathmask has a negative modifier?

It does not. Straight Ld. And is a 25 pt upgrade. Rather pricey for warshout.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

terminus wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

That seems like a lot for a 2 wound model. other than getting tougher when he's wounded and the re-rolls with DC what does he do? Does he have SM chaplain stats or does he have 3A and I5?

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

terminus wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

That seems like a lot for a 2 wound model. other than getting tougher when he's wounded and the re-rolls with DC what does he do? Does he have SM chaplain stats or does he have 3A and I5?

I6 by what I've read. Don't know much about special rules though. His crozius is special in some way.

The Crozius is master-crafted, that's all. No special rules other than going to S5 A5 when wounded. Normally has 2 base attacks. I5 or 6, can't recall at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

coteaz wrote:does anyone know Furioso Librarian's stats for BS,I and A??

i only understood it has WS6..

It's WS6, I5, A2(3). It cannot take two blood talons, as it is forced to replace its armament for a DCCW, force weapon and psychic hood, and there is no option to replace DCCW+FW for blood talons.

The Death Company Dread is WS5 A3(4), don't remember the initiative.

Both Dreads start at 125 points, and the psyker upgrade is 50. And yes, the dread can take Wings of Sanguinius so it can fly around, lol.

Then I guess Ol' Lemmy is pretty good then. you just make sure you allocate one non- instant death attack on him until he hulks out.
Too bad he doesn't have a death mask anymore. that was kind of his thing back in the day. Not that it was all that effective anyway

Okay, went through the last 20 pages or so, skipping the "ZOMG DEEP STRIKING LAND RAIDERS" stupidity that went on for far too long:

Neconilis wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Both!

Do you know the full weapon options of assault squads?

1 in 5 can take flamer/melta/plasma or pistol versions of the same. Sgt can also take pistol versions.

Bubbalicious wrote:Does anyone who took a peek at the codex know if lightning claws will be like C:SM or if they get a special version of it like the wolves did?

Regular lightning claws.

Mattbranb wrote:I'm trying to understand this and maybe you'all can help me out. I thought one of the positive sides to taking Blood Angels was getting furious charge across the army. Now from what everyone is saying, roll a 1 for each unit before deployment and the unit gets Rage and Furious Charge. Everyone else just gets Combat Tactics. Am I missing something here or does Furious Charge now only come with a negative?

No Rage, no Combat Tactics. Combat Tactics is replaced by Red Thirst, on a roll of 1, it gives you Fearless and Furious Charge. Only DC infantry and dreads have Black Rage, which is regular rage + they don't count as scoring (although dread wouldn't be anyway).

Mattbranb wrote:So Sanguinary priests - how exactly do these guys work? Are they more like commissars that are bought and attached to squads to give them FNP and other tasty stuff? Not upgrading to the special character, but what exactly do regular priests do?

No, they are IC that can be purchased 3 to a slot. They all have a 6" FNP + FC bubble.

Agree with what folks are talking about the transport/flier thing - AV12 is just too fragile in my opinion.

Well, at least it is 12 all around and ignores the melta rule.

Alpharius wrote:I hope that in the background section we get "confirmation" that Sanguinius knew he was going to he death but he did so because he also knew that he would provide the opening for the Emperor to defeat Horus by damaging Horus' armor.

Breezed through the fluff, there was nothing much about Sanguinius other than him getting punked by Horus and this being the source of the Red Thirst/Black Rage. The coolest fluff piece probably belongs to Astaroth, who is both the most honored and the most reviled person in the Chapter.

MajorTom11 wrote:Im just relieved they dropped the vampire stuff and grails more or less to focus on greek/roman themed angels again.

Oh how wrong you are. How very very wrong.

Therion wrote:

What level of cheese can they go to from here after Blood Angels? It boggles the mind.

I'm curious, when very competitively minded players criticise this codex for being underwhelming or based on the rumours perhaps even underpowered do you just skip over those posts, try not to read them and erase their existence from your memory and continue to whine about codex creep? I mean if people call something underpowered and others call it overpowered, assuming both parties know atleast something about the game, it should be something in between, right?

Yes, that's exactly what people are doing, because as we all know, people are reactionist and stupid, especially on the internet. The BA codex is hardly overpowered. If anything, other than the AV13 spam list, it's relatively weak. It's just stupid and cartoony, but I didn't expect anything better out of Matt Ward.

Brother SRM wrote:
You know, I was really looking forward to this mini. Seth sounded really badass. This miniature just seems kind of meh to me. His armor looks simple while his backpack is blinged out. I'll need to see some better pictures, but for now I'm not sold on him.

Seth sucks, most unimpressive character in the codex. He does nothing special, just has a S8 rending chainsword and dishes out an automatic S4 hit whenever missed in combat. There was also some give up attacks to hit everything in btb nonsense, whatever. He does NOT increase odds of triggering Red Thirst, that's solely Astaroth's gig.

Some guy wrote:Fast rhinos for a price is how they should have always been played. Its not like fast rhinos are game breaking since you can't really assault faster but they'll be better for tank shocking, dawn of war and objective grabs at the tradeoff of costing you nearly an extra rhino for every 2 you take.

Rhinos/Razorbacks are +15 points.

The hilariously bad "blood" names begin. Blood talons doesn't seem too bad but is laughably pompous for a DCCW

Yes, the regular DCCW is called a blood fist for no reason.

Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.

Target vehicle is stopped if it comes within 1" of terrain, another vehicle (friendly or enemy), or a unit locked in close combat. Otherwise, everything dragged over gets tank shocked. Not sure what happens if you hit a model that's already within 1" of those things. Costs the same as the upcharge on transports.

Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Oh joy, better than a wolf priest AND a standard chappy. He better be more expensive.

Costs 35 more than a SM Chaplain.

Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Venerable, Furioso, and Furioso Librarian
Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.

No Venerable option, this is wrong. And it's a Blood Fist, not Blood Talon. So either S10 DCCW or S6 force weapon.

Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5. They better cost a load.

Same as assault terminators.

Fast Attack
Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.

Costs the same as a C:SM Vindicator.

Vindicator – As per C:SM but are Fast

Cost +30.

Hulksmash wrote:13 Front and 12 Side. On the Furioso's. Libarian Dreads are an upgrade on the Furioso. Not sure if the Death Company ones are 13 Front as well.

Fun side note Furioso's and DC Dreads can exchange their DCCW's for basically dreadnought lightning claws. For every person they kill they get another attack too

DC are front AV12. Both start at regular dread +20, Librarian upgrade is another +50.

Volkov wrote:

I am not convinced of the value of these inferno pistols. I find it hard enough as it is reliably getting within 6" for melta safely, and I play a biker army. 3" on an arguably "slower" unit gives me pause.

I frequently play against Sisters of battle, and take it from me, they are nasty in the hands of BS 5 characters

Your Sisters of Battle opponents are pretty goofy then, since at AP2 their version of this pistol sucks.


Whew, I think that's it. Oh, the Dakka pred is 1/2 the cost of a Stormraven, while the Annihilator version is 20 points less.

Wow, that was a long post Terminus. Did that take you the better part of the day? Thanks for all the good info!

So does anybody else want to run Sanguinary Guard with dante and make them the basis of the army, just because they looks so awesome? I do, but I don't have the dough for 3-4 new kits.

thank you terminus..

but what about fire weapons for libby dread?

is there "frag cannon" or anything like that?

terminus wrote:

Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5. They better cost a load.

Same as assault terminators.

Ghawd, 40 points per model (or more w/upgrades) is just way too much for a jump marine with no invul save. And max squad size of 5! Didn't the total absence of Vanguard from any list teach GW anything? This is costed like a super-elite CC unit that can't beat other elite CC units in CC. Who cares if they can wreck a Tac squad? So can everything else. These guys should be 25 base, maybe 30 if the squad size limit was increased.

Seriously, at least in the fandex they had Hit and Run.

There is a frag cannon, I don't remember the cost (it was less than 25), but it replaces a blood fist, so I really wouldn't bother with it. The stats were S6 template weapon with no AP.

The magna grapple is an independent weapon, so you can have it in addition to your close combat ones.

@FoxPhoenix: lol, no, it only took about 20 minutes... I just skipped the 7 pages or so of people discussing the retardation level of deep striking land raiders.

This is why I dont buy the argument that GW makes rules to sell models.. If that were the case then sanguinary guard would be NOT 40 pts and DC wouldnt pay 15 pts for jump packs

And thats just BA.. the list goes on such as the new basilisk kit.. Venerable dreadnought kit for a 165 pt model.. gaunts still suffering from no retreat.. Vanguard in general, etc, etc

Well, if I was making a list, I'd start with three Stormravens.

I'd load one with 10-11 death company led by a chaplain, and attach a Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (with the cover and the lance powers). Then the other two would get squads of assault marines with Sanguinary priests, with attached DC dreads. The assault marines would give up their jump packs so I could buy Razorbacks with TL assault cannons or las/plas for 55 points.

Then I'd take three Baal predators, keeping one or two of them with just the turret weapon and outflanking them, and the other 1-2 set up for dakka.

Should easily fit in 2000 points, with some overhead for upgrades, magna grapples, etc.

Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns

On the topic of DC. Its pretty easy to negate rage, simply move them LAST and block their LOS somehow then you can move them however you want.. Jump them out of a transport, then get back in as soon as you can

My local game store got the black box with the codex yesterday. death Company do not count as scoring units, so you can't win the game by taking an army of them. I believe the same is true of sanguinary guard. So they are awesome, but since sanguinary priests can't be everywhere, it is unlikely your entire army will feel no pain.

sanguinary guards are scoring with dante but not without him as he makes them troops.

I thought the Frag Cannon was also Rending... wasn't it? There should have been something a bit more for it, I recall...

<Raises eyebrow at GrimTeef> You sound like a man who might've been involved in the PT process...

It's St6 AP- Assault 2 Rending

Hulksmash wrote:It's St6 AP- Assault 2 Rending

No blast?

It's a template.

Ah, thanks.

I Think I figured out the Deep Stiking Land Raiders
Red Onz Go Fasta and then

Question; how many models can our drop pods carry?

DBM - nope, just read the codex that showed up at the LA Bunker, and didn't think the Frag Cannon sounded like too bad a choice considering, that's why I thought I recalled something else to it...

Necon - pretty sure it was 10 models.

Grim - was that you I saw there, reading the Codex yesterday?

Good Job terminus..thanks a lot

Smellingsalts wrote:...death Company do not count as scoring units, so you can't win the game by taking an army of them...

Sure you can.
You just have to table your opponent anytime there are objectives in the mission.

John - sorry, wasn't me! I was at the Bunker on this past Saturday, the 6th, playing 40k with some friends.

skrulnik wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:...death Company do not count as scoring units, so you can't win the game by taking an army of them...

Sure you can.
You just have to table your opponent anytime there are objectives in the mission.

Sure enough, that's basically the tactic Imperial Guard have to follow whenever it's a Kill Point mission.

However, I don't really see the major appeal of Death Company, except one unit to anchor an assault front and get you access to dreadnoughts. Assault Marines with Sanguinary Priests are just as good, without the issue of having Black Rage, and get access to better weapons.

And I still don't understand why DC have Relentless if they don't have ultragrit. Who will take an extra bolter shot over an extra swing in close combat?

Can Death Company at least get special or heavy weapons if they don't have ultragrit? Relentless just seems like a waste if none of their equipment supports it. Man, I sure love these relentless bolt pistols!

No special or heavy weapons. They can take pistols, but that's it. It's a completely pointless rule unless you want to run them with boltguns.

Well that's just silly. How many power weapons/fists can they take? I remember old rumors that said the number was dictated by your army composition but I can't discern what's what anymore.

DC suck, simple as that. Everyone can get FNP and FC from the Sanguinary Priests anyway. If you want power weapons or fists into squads you'll have plenty from all the AM sergeants and priests.

Unless you play nothing but marines rapid fire bolters can kill the majority of the infantry in the game.(orks, IG) Wait bolters suck, I forgot the interwebz rule!

GrimTeef wrote:John - sorry, wasn't me! I was at the Bunker on this past Saturday, the 6th, playing 40k with some friends.

Oh, OK, no biggie. I was just curious if I might have missed a Dakka person IRL.
____

terminus wrote:I don't really see the major appeal of Death Company, except one unit to anchor an assault front and get you access to dreadnoughts.

And I still don't understand why DC have Relentless if they don't have ultragrit. Who will take an extra bolter shot over an extra swing in close combat?

Dude, DC are appealing because they're the Death Company - if they're at least adequate at killing things, look cool, then that's enough for a lot of people. Also, access to more Dreads is always cool!

Relentless is cool for Fluff bunnies who might claim to have pulled their DC models from Tac & Dev squads not normally armed with BP&CCW.

"Dude, DC are appealing because they're the Death Company"

God Damn Right!!

To clarify, I meant appeal of DC beyond the first unit, as I'd always have one unit for the DC dreads. And unlike assault squads, they can't be deprived of FNP by killing the IC Priests.

CKO wrote:Unless you play nothing but marines rapid fire bolters can kill the majority of the infantry in the game.(orks, IG) Wait bolters suck, I forgot the interwebz rule!

Right, which is why you take the regular tac squads, who can take special/heavy weapons, are cheaper, and can capture objectives.

GrimTeef wrote:DBM - nope, just read the codex that showed up at the LA Bunker, and didn't think the Frag Cannon sounded like too bad a choice considering, that's why I thought I recalled something else to it...

Necon - pretty sure it was 10 models.

Crap, there goes the 10 DC + chaplain drop then. Thanks for the info though =)

I don't know, I think Relentless DC with Boltguns is not completely stupid. You could put a pretty serious hurt on a lot of different units by doing that before assaulting them. In a lot of cases I'd actually be worried about doing too much, allowing the other player to remove the whole front line and keep me out of assault or to enable the unit to be wiped out, leaving the DC exposed. I'm sure it won't be the most common setup, but I would probably think about having some of that if I was playing BA.

But, you know, don't let me stand in the way of Internet wisdom!

Take 15+Chap and drop them in a Crusader.

I think the boltgun vs BP issue ends up being rather like the debate for orks betwixt Shoota and Slugga, and I have the same opinion: Small units will need the extra oomph in close combat so should use pistols, but past about 12ish models Boltguns will add more to the unit then extra attacks in melee, which will likely be overkill.

Additonally any with Powerfists should clearly have boltguns.

Jack

Brother SRM wrote:Well that's just silly. How many power weapons/fists can they take? I remember old rumors that said the number was dictated by your army composition but I can't discern what's what anymore.

They can have as many powerfists, power weapons, thunder hammers, inferno pistols, or plasma pistols as you want. The squad can be almost 2200 points at max.

Coming in at 73 points for a W1 model.

Impressive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Coming in at 73 points for a W1 model.

Impressive.

Ahem. I think you meant 12 Termagants with Spinefists, and a single Frag Grenade.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Coming in at 73 points for a W1 model.

Impressive.

They're pretty damn good at half a terminator points base (4 more than the overpriced base tac marine), and rage is less of an issue when your packing upwards of 10 str 9 power first attacks on a jump pack unit (and it effects nothing at all in a unit in a transport). They're much harder to kite around when they can reliably reach (and kill) most anything that would be capable of kiting them.

Well, they are half again as much as a terminator once you give them a jump pack and power fist.

terminus wrote:Well, they are half again as much as a terminator once you give them a jump pack and power fist.

Thats why you don't give them all power fists. With fnp they are as resilient against small arms as terminators are and with the jump packs they are considerably more mobile.

ShumaGorath wrote:

terminus wrote:Well, they are half again as much as a terminator once you give them a jump pack and power fist.

Thats why you don't give them all power fists. With fnp they are as resilient against small arms as terminators are and with the jump packs they are considerably more mobile.

I still don't think paying 35 base each for JP DC is worth it at all. What good is mobility that I have dictated to me? Sure I can build the unit to be able to crush anything, but it costs a lot of points and a smart opponent will feed them sacrifices while they pick them apart.

Neconilis wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

terminus wrote:Well, they are half again as much as a terminator once you give them a jump pack and power fist.

Thats why you don't give them all power fists. With fnp they are as resilient against small arms as terminators are and with the jump packs they are considerably more mobile.

I still don't think paying 35 base each for JP DC is worth it at all. What good is mobility that I have dictated to me? Sure I can build the unit to be able to crush anything, but it costs a lot of points and a smart opponent will feed them sacrifices while they pick them apart.

Thats not particularly different from the role of assault terminators. 10 DC and 2 Pfists comes in at the same cost as a standard 10 man assault termy squad. FNP gives them the same resilience to small arms (though markedly less against ap2 and battlecanons) and the unit is considerably more difficult to strand or chump block. I think the unit will have life, though at the cost of a famous spartan battles number for 10 in a fast rhino there are certainly better uses than the jump unit. For two of the previously mentioned battles you can have a 30 strong running, screaming, bald unit of power armored figures relentlessly feeling no pain while charging things furiously and fearlessly. Even sans upgrades thats a unit that will kill most others. My army would have a hard time really dealing with a sizeable jump pack DC squad, while i have mobility it's not something that the packs couldn't catch or that wouldn't just get shot anyway.

MinMax wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Coming in at 73 points for a W1 model.

Impressive.

Ahem. I think you meant 12 Termagants with Spinefists, and a single Frag Grenade.

Holy crap. Can't we just say 7.3 ISTs / Meltas or 0.73 GGDs (Generic Greater Daemons) and keep this nonsense simple?

Really... who cares about such obfuscation? Ooh, Death Company are 20 points, or 35 with jump packs, so taboo!

I posted a bunch of point costs a page or so back, and I've yet to hear any GW lawyers knocking down my do*BANG*

...

I just thought of a semi-useful purpose for the relentless special rule for DC:

When in a rhino, that means that even if the rhino moves at combat speed you can fire the boltguns out the top hatch once at 24 inches. That may not matter a whole lot, but hey it isn't totally useless.

So on another topic, are LRs the same costs in the BA dex as they are in the vanilla dex, or are we paying more points for the ability to deepstrike?

Land Raiders cost 250 searchlights!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I just thought of a semi-useful purpose for the relentless special rule for DC:

When in a rhino, that means that even if the rhino moves at combat speed you can fire the boltguns out the top hatch once at 24 inches. That may not matter a whole lot, but hey it isn't totally useless.

You mean all 2 of them?

Nah, they are basically there as a way for guys with powerfists/thunderhammers to still gain an extra attack (albeit at range). And I suppose taking a few bolter guys once you get into the larger squad sizes to make them a bit more shooty is a valid, but I'd pull all my casualties from these guys first, as I value a S5 close combat attack that re-rolls to hit and to wound over a S4 attack with AP5, and the extra attack in melee is more useful if the combat lasts more than a single phase.

I thought the rumor was the DC came with bolter + bp + ccw? Was that false?

Arschbombe wrote:

warhammersupernerd wrote:We also have a thing called chaff, it kinda helps save us from heat seaking missiles.

Chaff defeats radar. Flares are used to defeat heatseeker. Just sayin'.

Damn my lack of knowledge of military devices. Thanks for correcting me though!

Terminus wrote:Really... who cares about such obfuscation? Ooh, Death Company are 20 points, or 35 with jump packs, so taboo!

I posted a bunch of point costs a page or so back, and I've yet to hear any GW lawyers knocking down my do*BANG*

...

Actually the C&D letter would get sent to dakka, not you.

Actually nothing would happen. As I keep saying, GW does not want their points costs and rules posted verbatim.

Just saying DC cost 20 points and their jump packs make 'em 35 is not going to breach that.

Do you think the taxes we pay for fast vehicles is justified?

Depends on the vehicle. It seems a bit much on rhinos (are two fast rhinos = three normal ones, I don't think so), but is fairly reasonable on the predator. Also a bit much on the vindicator as far as I am concerned.

Jack

Rhinos are probably overpriced with the Fast tax, but Predators are almost certainly underpriced. Vindicators are significantly improved but pay a premium, and Whirlwinds gain almost no benefit from the upgrade.

Razorbacks are weird. Many configurations are not significantly improved, but others (most notably twin-linked heavy flamers and Stronos-pattern) are much, much better.

Well if more people had voted for Mephiston at the last election rather than Dante, we'd have that tax cut he promised.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if more people had voted for Mephiston at the last election rather than Dante, we'd have that tax cut he promised.

I was going to vote for him but he would always stop talking in the middle of his speeches, like he was suffering from some type of peril attack.

I think fast razorbacks are nasty a lascannon shot and a twin-linked plasma gun shot after moving 6, is really really good, but very expensive near a normal predator i think.

CKO wrote:Do you think the taxes we pay for fast vehicles is justified?

Yes. A thousand times yes on every one of them.

Wait so the frag cannon is assault 2 AND a template weapon? that just sounds to good to be true.

And i thought DC were supposed to have boltgun, bolt pistol and ccw?

Daggermaw wrote:Wait so the frag cannon is assault 2 AND a template weapon? that just sounds to good to be true.

And i thought DC were supposed to have boltgun, bolt pistol and ccw?

DC dreadnaught not the actual marines.

First time posting. A few pages back Terminus replied that the new codex was not so much angel themed as one person thought and was in fact still kinda space vampire. Can anyone give more details on this. It may seem silly but it's pretty important to me. I was getting excited over the angel thing (and I've never been one for vampires.) Thanks.

Nathial wrote:First time posting. A few pages back Terminus replied that the new codex was not so much angel themed as one person thought and was in fact still kinda space vampire. Can anyone give more details on this. It may seem silly but it's pretty important to me. I was getting excited over the angel thing (and I've never been one for vampires.) Thanks.

The Sanguinary Guard have sculpted musculature and angel wings. One of the special characters is a goddamned angel, replete with a messiah pose. I don't think you're in any kind of danger here.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if more people had voted for Mephiston at the last election rather than Dante, we'd have that tax cut he promised.

Or get the psyker that most needs one, an Invulnerability save.

the rumors from a few weeks ago had a two handed chainsword in one of the sprues but i can't for the life of me find it. is it not there or am i simply missing the bit?

warboss wrote:the rumors from a few weeks ago had a two handed chainsword in one of the sprues but i can't for the life of me find it. is it not there or am i simply missing the bit?

Maybe people were thinking of the two handed swords in the Sanguinary Guard set?

temprus wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if more people had voted for Mephiston at the last election rather than Dante, we'd have that tax cut he promised.

Or get the psyker that most needs one, an Invulnerability save.

He's harder to kill than a trygon and packs a much bigger punch. Given the fact that he'll never be without a cover save anyway (just stick him in the middle of the unit he would have been in and boom he gets a 4+ cover save) and his lack of an invulnerable save is just a scratch on a giant pyramid of gold.

Mep has no protection from Perils of the Warp, unlike almost all other major Imperial Psykers. If he was not a Psyker, I would not even bring up his lack of I-Save.

let us all lament the lack of an invuln save that needs to be re-rolled if successful anyway.

Daggermaw wrote:Wait so the frag cannon is assault 2 AND a template weapon? that just sounds to good to be true.

And i thought DC were supposed to have boltgun, bolt pistol and ccw?

Nope, sword and pistol or gun. Guess I can give my powerfist guys bolters and make use of that relentless rule. Woo! Woo. Woo? Woo...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

temprus wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if more people had voted for Mephiston at the last election rather than Dante, we'd have that tax cut he promised.

Or get the psyker that most needs one, an Invulnerability save.

He's harder to kill than a trygon and packs a much bigger punch. Given the fact that he'll never be without a cover save anyway (just stick him in the middle of the unit he would have been in and boom he gets a 4+ cover save) and his lack of an invulnerable save is just a scratch on a giant pyramid of gold.

True, he'd certainly be better with an INV save, but unlike before I think he can now get around that handicap and still prove useful. Not just join a melee, fail to kill everyone with power weapons or rending that can attack him, die horribly and make me think I could've had another Land Raider.

ShumaGorath wrote:

CKO wrote:Do you think the taxes we pay for fast vehicles is justified?

Yes. A thousand times yes on every one of them.

Thanks for quoting that, as I don't normally see his posts and I needed the laugh. I love the use of "we". I wish I had the money, the time, the dedication, and sheer talent to be able to pick up every new army, paint it all up for battle, and become the vocal authority on the subject by the time the next new army hits the block, and then do it all over again. I wish I was special. :(

Daggermaw wrote:Wait so the frag cannon is assault 2 AND a template weapon? that just sounds to good to be true.

And i thought DC were supposed to have boltgun, bolt pistol and ccw?

I am not sure about the assault 2, but it's 100% a template. Doesn't matter though, everyone will be using Furioso librarians and Blood Talon DC dreads (they will kill an entire squad of marines before they get to swing). And nothing in the codx has ultra-grit, not even DC.

Nathial wrote:First time posting. A few pages back Terminus replied that the new codex was not so much angel themed as one person thought and was in fact still kinda space vampire. Can anyone give more details on this. It may seem silly but it's pretty important to me. I was getting excited over the angel thing (and I've never been one for vampires.) Thanks.

Well, there is plenty of Angelic iconography, if that's what you're worried about, though it's mostly limited to the Sanguinary Guard and for every guy with wings there are 10 guys with blood drops and skulls and pimp mugs made of skulls, full of blood with decorative blood drops on them. Fluff-wise, it's all hungry vampires this and angry vampires that. They really are BLOOD angels.

I am not sure about the assault 2, but it's 100% a template. Doesn't matter though, everyone will be using Furioso librarians and Blood Talon DC dreads (they will kill an entire squad of marines before they get to swing).

I would question whether the dread would be capable of reaching the marine squad with that armament. It would be quite a target and it's just a regular dread with respect to its ability to take damage. Rage is also a pretty considerable hinderance on a foot slogging single walker that can't hurt a land raider or monolith and yet will try every single turn. I would just throw an ironclad or regular dread at it and enjoy my kill point.

Why use DC dreads? Furiosos can take blood talons also and dont have to deal with rage and have armor 13 over armor 12.. You also need to take 5 DC as well first, unless you fill up your elites I dont see a reason to take them much

the frag launcher is indeed assault 2 template rending.. It is amazing but more of a drop pod thing. Basically its like a heavy flamer ironclad but .. better!

As far as it reaching the target, it's true that can be difficult, but then again it can be transported by an assault skimmer. Rage is problematic, but not as major an issue if you accompany it with a squad that blocks it moving in a direction you don't want it to.

The main reasons for DC dreads over Furiosos that I can see are the extra attack to start the unit blender attack chain, the furious charge for S7 and initiave to swing first, and the fact that the elite slots have a lot of major contenders. But yes, a furioso with blood talons could munch through a whole squad too. Thank god they still have to hit with the extra attacks, otherwise you'd just remove whatever non-invuln unit they engage from the table to save yourself the trouble of rolling dice.

Taking a DC squad is not exactly a drawback, since they are badasses rules, fluff and model-wise. If I was faced with a BA or successor chapter without at least some DC on the table, I would refuse to acknowledge them as such and proclaim the player renegade and heretic. Of course, since my army never takes the field without an Inquisitor, any Imperial army that opposes me are heretics by default.

Terminus wrote:Thanks for quoting that, as I don't normally see his posts and I needed the laugh. I love the use of "we". I wish I had the money, the time, the dedication, and sheer talent to be able to pick up every new army, paint it all up for battle, and become the vocal authority on the subject by the time the next new army hits the block, and then do it all over again. I wish I was special. :(

I play 2 armies IG and Blood Angels, and I see nothing wrong with using we whenever I am talking about those two armies. I hope I am not the guy you said you would shoot over hitler, you have quoted me more then once the past few days for no other reason but to talk about me, and I have no idea why.

With all that said are you positive sanguinary guard have ws 5?

What I think is really going to rock hard is a Furioso Librarian Dreadnought that can use Wings of Sanguinius...

That's a freakin' fast Force Weapon Dread moving across the board.

That's a freakin' fast Force Weapon Dread moving across the board.

His problem is that he costs 175 points, can't use the force weapon's instant death ability the turn he uses any other psychic power. The fact he has a force weapon is actually a disadvantage to him since he cannot get dual blood talons and therefore does less damage in combat than a 50 points cheaper normal Furioso.

Yes, but that's 175 points, so it should be badass. The wings can be cancelled with a psychic hood, and if it's using wings, it can't use the force weapon's ability.

While it will take some time and plenty of games to really find out what the Blood Angels can do, there's nothing in particular I'm concerned about. I think Space Wolves with their best tactical unit in the game, very flexible psykers, and their awesome Long Fangs are by far the tougher army to face, at least for my IG. There are two things in the BA codex that are OMGFRIGGINAWESOME:

One entry is the Sanguinary Priest and his FNP/FC bubble. However, they don't even have a power weapon at their base cost, can be singled out in close combat, and IIRC, they only have 1 wound each. It will basically be a game of "engage them before they engage you".

The other, and by far the best IMO, is the Baal predator outflanking and moving 12" while firing the flamestorm cannon. For only 115 points, this thing makes my infantry squads crap their collective pants. If I played BA, I'd always bring at least one.


edit: I'm not a big fan of the Sanguinary Guard, but I love the Death Company models. Mixing these guys with the Legion of the Damned models would make a gorgeous unit. The LofD Sargent would make a great Chaplain.

I have an idea in my head for an angelic host type. Basically works like this

Dante
Maybe sanguinor
3 storm ravens
as many sanguinary guard squads as i can fit in the list.

For only 115 points, this thing makes my infantry squads crap their collective pants. If I played BA, I'd always bring at least one.

At 115 points the Predator still doesn't have any sponsons. It costs 145 points with FSC/TL AC and two heavy bolters.

I think Space Wolves with their best tactical unit in the game, very flexible psykers, and their awesome Long Fangs are by far the tougher army to face, at least for my IG

I love the SW units you mentioned but I think by far the biggest difference maker are the TWC. For 260 points the SW get an assault unit with 8 T5 complexified wounds with a storm shield and a power fist tossed in, assaults up to 24" in one turn and causes a pretty hefty amount of damage to any type of target including Land Raiders. To me the speed, damage, resilience and versatility of this unit is something the BA cannot match. The jump packers are simply a lot less viable and LR mounted assault units are pretty much the same as in C:SM.

I think it's actually pretty sad that the expertise of BA is mobile tanks and choppy Dreadnoughts instead of the actual troops. I'm not saying that specialising in fast vehicles is a bad thing at all, but this release was a perfect opportunity to make serious all-out assault SM armies viable. If the SM would be the jacks of all trades, the SW the shooty army that counter-attacks with strong units anything that comes close, then the BA should be the one that is truly offensively minded. It doesn't seem likely.

I know it doesn't have any sponsons. Screw sponsons. 25 points for two heavy bolters? Pass... and I laugh when I see that variant of the Baal. Paying LRBT points for 3 TL AC shots and 6 HB shots on a 13/11/10 chasis? Yeah, not concerned in the slightest.

No, the dirt-cheap turret-only variant can scoot around 12" (so hit in melee only on a 6) and place that "autohits, wounds on 2+, ignores cover saves and any armor short of TDA, and insta-kills eldar/guard" template is by far the more terrifying tank.

Thunderwolves are badasses, but are slower than BA and can't hide in a transport. I don't know if I would bother with the power fist (or thunderhammer, rather) or stormshield, given their high cost. 5-6 rending attacks each should be plenty to deal with armor, and I'd rather have an extra rider. At some point down the line I was going to make a Chaosy SW list using Spawn as wolves, but now I'm tempted to use DC/LotD models for my troops, and they'll look weird together.

a few questions for the codex owners out there regarding dante...

how does his no deviation on the deepstrike rule interact with other squads? is it limited to jump pack squads or can he join up with 10 termies and not have them deviate? also, does his hit and run rule have any limitations as to whom it applies to? can he hit and run with the above termies?

signed,
looking to use my space hulk termies in new and cool ways

Hey Luna if you are still following this I sent you a PM asking how to send you your new Devs.

: )

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Hey Luna if you are still following this I sent you a PM asking how to send you your new Devs.

: )

G

Omg! are you same person as GBF?
Like you wont send me an empty box right xD
or anthrax or a bomb :'<

I'd put the models under a blacklight before touching them.

I have been thinking...If I take on my BA assault squad a flamer pistol on the sergent, do I get 1 extra attack?-like for another ccw.Assault squad with flamer in sergent,and with the numer of attack intact..could be...something


PS: you willl find here..on the bottom of the page... stats of the BA and wargear http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=561867

The new BA sound pretty over the top to me, but then I thought tyranids were pretty broken when I first heard the rumors too, so I will reserve judgment. I am, however, feeling some serious nerd rage on behalf of my poor ordinary space marines. Lets see - what do BA have that I don't? Dreadnaughts as troops, FNP and FC everywhere, flying stuff, monstrous creature, fast vehicles etc. Ok, they are supposed to be assault oriented where I am supposed to be "balanced". Their tac squads are identical. They get sternguard. Their devs are probably better due to FNP shenanigans. Heck, they even get tech marines. So basically if you play vanilla marines its for the ability to run away (combat tactics), a moderately cool artillery piece (thunderfire), and one or two librarian powers that BA don't get. (Null field and gate being the only really important ones...) You can build 90% of a vanilla list out of the BA codex- but the reverse certainly isn't true.

Kestral,

To give the Devs FNP, you have to make sure a 50pt model stays within 6" of them. To get Non-scoring Dreds as troops you have to take another Non-scoring Troop choice. Our fast vehicles are priced higher, than your slower vehicles so we can out manouver you somewhat, you can bring more toys to play with. I don't think we have the option to make our vehicles slower to save on points either, so we have to pay the higher prices.

I'm not saying its necessarily better, just more interesting. I don't think you will see many BA armies that look like Ultramarines armies - but the fact is that almost anything that might be useful from the vanilla list, they can get. I think they should have preserved as much of the "uniqueness" of vanilla as they could.

This may be a bit off topic, but I wanted you guys to check out my scratch built Storm Raven. I figured it has been rumored for some time and I just could not wait for the official version.

See what you guys think on the project log thread below. Thanks anyway and sorry for taking it off topic in a way.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/284421.page

P.S., still alot of work to be done on her but it will be ready for Adepticon.

Thanks for looking

Romeo

kestral wrote:I'm not saying its necessarily better, just more interesting. I don't think you will see many BA armies that look like Ultramarines armies - but the fact is that almost anything that might be useful from the vanilla list, they can get. I think they should have preserved as much of the "uniqueness" of vanilla as they could.

Yep, thats my biggest complaint about the book. They didn't really take anything out. Unless you have a strong attachment to a special character, I really can't see any reason to use the normal SM book. The BA book still gives you all the basic options, plus all the OTT upgrades.

At least with Space wolves, they actually took stuff away to help balance out the book, help actually make them a divergent chapter. BA are nothing more than Smurfs painted red with an extra large helping of toys. Hardly a divergent chapter in the least.

Well, they took out Combat Tactics, the special rule that defines normal Marines. And while Blood Angels have access to many similar units, there are actually great differences in how each should be used.

kestral wrote:Dreadnaughts as troops,

yup, vehicles that are not scoring that are bought with another overpriced nonscoring troops choice. while i personally like the death co dreads as a troop and will use them with an el cheapo death co, they're hardly overpowering.

kestral wrote:
FNP and FC everywhere

at the low low price of 50-100pts per model per 6" radius. for it to be everywhere, you'll have to spend 150-300 for 1 wound models.

kestral wrote:
monstrous creature, fast vehicles

the fast i'll give you with the retort that they're charged for it. it's not free. also, there isn't a single monstrous creature in the book. i'm assuming you mean mephiston who has a similar statline to one but doesn't get the advantages like 2d6 armor pen and move through cover yet can't join squads. and did you see his cost? 275pt IIRC. i'll never take him.

kestral wrote:
Their devs are probably better due to FNP shenanigans

answered above by another poster.

kestral wrote:
Heck, they even get tech marines.

yes, they get another expensive 1 wound marine statline model. but not the master of the forge.

kestral wrote:
So basically if you play vanilla marines its for the ability to run away (combat tactics), a moderately cool artillery piece (thunderfire), and one or two librarian powers that BA don't get.

um, then there's bikes as troops, the ability to fleet/be stubborn/simply choose your morale result/outflank/score with sternguard/twinlink ALL your flamers and meltas, the master of the forge with his beamer and limited dread spam, extended troop capacity transports, cheap th/ss termies, scoring sternguard, land speeder storms, ironclad dreads... and that's what i can think of off hand. with BA you have one real tactic - rush towards and assault. if you're not doing that then youre paying extra for things that you're not using. with regular marines you can do an assault heavy force (not as good as BA though) but still do one heck of a shooty army. the sky is NOT falling.

Marine players will return back to their codex after they have played a few games. The main reason being is that players whether bring extra units then have the fast vehicle rule.

Perhaps, but you can only use ONE of those special options - and I personally think that while its good that they included them for those people who played those chapters, it doesn't add that much to the core list.

Master of the forge I grant you, - ironclads don't seem that different from Fusarios though, Th/SS costing 5 pts more isn't a serious difference.

It looks like BA will have some serious shooting options - as least as good as regular marines, as far as I can tell in theory hammer land. People won't use them much I suspect, but that doesn't mean they aren't as good as the vanilla options. I suppose you lose slightly with a 3 whirlwind list costing slightly more in exchange for being fast - but that seems minor.

Also, I think we'll see some horrifing deathstars with the sanguinary priests. Who cares if his upgrades are expensive - you never want him to fight anyway. What really irks me is the 6" radius thing. As a squad upgrade, he wouldn't be bad. Perhaps most importantly, he can move around - you can bolster whatever unit is most critical to your battle plan. Love to have apothecaries be able to do that.

To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

kestral wrote:Perhaps, but you can only use ONE of those special options - and I personally think that while its good that they included them for those people who played those chapters, it doesn't add that much to the core list.

To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

i think their point with combat tactics with the marine dex was to have an upgradeable mechanic to simulate the 1000 chapters around with their differing heritages/traditions. nothing is stopping GW from coming out with additional special characters for lesser known chapters and if it were 3rd edition GW they would have come out with a half dozen by now, lol. vanilla marines don't necessarily get the best of the best in rules/stuff but they get the ultimate choice in what to take.

as for the last part, i agree. the BA's have always been cooler. it's part of the vampire theme, mwuhaaa!!

kestral wrote:To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

Is it really cooler or just new? I think people are really underestimating the extra point cost.


A.Terminators with th/ss- 25 extra points
3 rhinos-45-extra points

That alone is 70 points if you take any other vehicle you add on to that! Its 70 points that means less wargear or put it this way meltaguns are 5 points, combi weapons are 10, the new pistols are either 5- 10. For a BA rhino you can get a normal space marine rhino and use the extra points to buy a meltagun and a combi-meltagun.

I rather pay 45 pts to move 3 units 18", then next turn get out and assault a unit that was up to 32" or so away at the start

Paying small points for an ability the other army doesnt even have is a lot more useful than not having the ability

Dont underestimate 18" tank shocks either or rhino missiles once the unit is deployed

Sounds like someone who doesnt want to pay extra points to include a dok in a nob squad to give them feel no pain.. because its 'more expensive" despite also being better

Well, if you can't beat 'em join em. Kestrals are a bird chapter, right? Obviously all bird like chapters deserve cool stuff. Say hello to my "really mad apothecaries" who will be giving my drop pod squads and dev squads FNP and the cheaper vanguard dudes/assault termies the same + FC when they drop on the locators. I'm pretty sure I can run my entire list out of the BA codex without changing anything else - oh, and my assault squads will be scoring units now.
; ) Granted, it was a fairly generic drop pod list, but still, it does seem like you ought not to be able to build the same list out of two codexes.


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All marine whining aside, I suppose if GW can get us to buy new stuff because its "cooler" rather than "more powerful" thats better, right? Tyranids really inspired me to get more models, without them being overpowered.

Kirasu wrote:I rather pay 45 pts to move 3 units 18", then next turn get out and assault a unit that was up to 32" or so away at the start

Paying small points for an ability the other army doesnt even have is a lot more useful than not having the ability

Dont underestimate 18" tank shocks either or rhino missiles once the unit is deployed

Sounds like someone who doesnt want to pay extra points to include a dok in a nob squad to give them feel no pain.. because its 'more expensive" despite also being better

You value the fast vehicle rule more then extra equiptment or other units, I dont think everyone will feel that way. Also marine have the same stat line and wargear its impossible for them to make codexes that the other codex can not make a similar list, thats not their job its yours.

ou value the fast vehicle rule more then extra equiptment or other units, I dont think everyone will feel that way.

Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

Also marine have the same stat line and wargear its impossible for them to make codexes that the other codex can not make a similar list, thats not their job its yours.

By giving everyone close combat weapons as well as pistols the space wolves pulled that one off pretty well. But then thats something all marines should have anyway.

CKO wrote:

That alone is 70 points if you take any other vehicle you add on to that! Its 70 points that means less wargear or put it this way meltaguns are 5 points, combi weapons are 10, the new pistols are either 5- 10. For a BA rhino you can get a normal space marine rhino and use the extra points to buy a meltagun and a combi-meltagun.

That is a fair point, but do there really seem to be many cases like that? Even adding "slow rhinos" to the things SM get that DA don't, there don't seem to be much parity between the codexes in terms of the number of options.

IMO, non-JP DC aren't bad, but will likely need Tantalus Lander / Storm Harbinger as Transport to be effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

Which leads to a different play style right? If you look at it in a vacuum then 15 points for fast vehicles is a great deal, however if you try to take advantage of fast vehicles you will spend anywhere from 100-150 points for that speed. Meaning your giving up alot of wargear or one less unit considering that marines already have small armies you will have a very small army.

How are BA transport lists any worse than Vanilla ones?

Try this at 1850 with Vanilla...it wont be as good.

HQ

Captain Twin LC's

Honour Guard-2xFlamer, Power Weapon, 2x LC's; Rhino

TROOPS

(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas

HEAVY SUPPORT

Tri-Lascannon Pred
Tri-Lascannon Pred
Tri-Lascannon Pred

-1850 Even

...all fast and CHEAPER TRANSPORTS offsetting the extra cost of the 15pt more expensive FAST Preds.


The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, non-JP DC aren't bad, but will likely need Tantalus Lander / Storm Harbinger as Transport to be effective.

If you have the gunship for a transport, why do you need the jump packs? It's an assault vehicle and provides the additional mobility that the jump packs would. All this does is waste a lot of points, and limits the size of your unit so their impact in close combat is a lot less significant and they are easier to overwhelm and kill.

As for the whole transport conversation, I'm not a fan of razorbacks with upgraded weapons. They are way expensive considering how easy it is to silence/destroy an AV11 vehicle. I'm also not sold on the tri-las predators, either, given that each is 180 points. If you're planning on abusing the Assault Marine discount, you could purchase god-hammer land raiders for only 35 points more.

@Terminus: As you quoted, I said "non-JP" meaning "without Jump Packs"... Please re-read.

Combi-Preds with fast are gonna be sweet. One thing that makes the Fast rule so powerful is the ability to roll on the board and still fire to full effect. That provides Mech BA the ability to go into reserve to avoid alpha strikes, something which SM lacks.

Sorry Hwang, I misread.

Dakka preds are only 100 points. Now THAT's cost effectiveness.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

I dunno, I'm not convinced that two fast rhinos are better then three regular ones (which is basically how they work out). I do think Predators and Razorbacks benefit much more so though.

I'm also completely in agreement with you that the uber-grit approach probably should be the standard for all marines.

Jack

I dont think the razorback spam list will work either.

Regardless its the point that the assault army, gets all fast vehicles to top it off.

I play the CC game against pretty much everything with myy CSM (including BTs...) and normal Rhinos feel slow to me.

Id pay those extra points gladly to get cheap and fast transports.

Considering better CSM CC squads, you get that nice FNP/FC upgrade to make your MEQs just as fearsome.


I think most people hate the fact, that BA get everything (close to) from the vanilla dex, and the vanilla dex can only eke out a small niche with SCMs like Vulkan.

I think Matt Ward has done his job perfectly, create a mirage that makes marine players buy the codex and maybe 1-2 units resulting in an extra $100 per marine player.

The whole point of these other marine codexes is to make every marine player say with that rule or unit this is clearly going to be better then the usual.

I can see the value in putting jump infantry in the skimmer tank. Move in using fast movement, pop smoke then the next turn your jump infantry can disembark at the beginning of the movement and launch an assault up to 18" (not including the effects of Rage). Some armies will have problems taking out the skimmer tank.

On fast rhinos, this alone will make things very difficult for close combat oriented armies to counter. You can always keep your transports out of charge range from a large number of units if you play it right. OCE as per the PDF codex stinks because it is unreliable plus you are still paying more points for this ability. I think most current BA players will tell you they rarely use OCE and there is always the chance you'll end immobilizing the transport, which can really hurt. Now it's completely full proof and you just pay more points. I think for many smart BA players rhinos will become a staple. It's a huge advantage in every way and you can maintain the protection/defense that comes with playing mech. Jump infantry always have a problem dealing with enemy shooting and running foot infantry in a transport solves these problems. In fact I'll go so far as to say that we will probably see a rebirth of modified rhino rush. All your rhinos zoom up the first turn then you jump out the next turn and launch your assaults. Fast rhinos will remain unique to BA and it was a huge advantage back in 3rd edition. Jump infantry in a fast skimmer is also strong but as noted you are paying a lot more points to do it versus foot infantry in a rhino.

I was never a big fan of razorbacks for a mobile army. They are good for gunlines though but I think you'll lose out on the extra points required to field them in a new BA army. That said one of my most potent BA armies (3rd edition) was a razorback core army with three Baal Predators. Back in third you could take 5/6 man las/plas tactical squads (prior to combat squads). The amount of firepower you could lay down was amazing! This was by far one of the best SAFH armies I've ever seen. You had the cheap and very potent DCs and basically got free power fist/power weapon for each veteran sergeant inducted into the DC. This army was so strong I would only play it against people I didn't like.

On the another subject, the new DC I think are going to be very strong again. I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

I'm extremely excited about the new BA to say the least.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I can see the value in putting jump infantry in the skimmer tank. Move in using fast movement, pop smoke then the next turn your jump infantry can disembark at the beginning of the movement and launch an assault up to 18" (not including the effects of Rage). Some armies will have problems taking out the skimmer tank.

Why are you popping smoke on a vehicle that just generated cover for itself?

Black Blow Fly wrote: I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

Yeah, you wish. No plasmaguns for Death Company.

Terminus wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote: I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

Yeah, you wish. No plasmaguns for Death Company.

Also, I don't think anyone said foot-slogging DC suck, it's the ones that apparently strap a tactical marine to their back that we have issue with.

Well, since they are relentless and thus a very stable platform, would the strapped-on tactical marine still be able to fire heavy weapons?

Is Sanguinary Priests an Independent character? -would be great if I had a blood lance and fc+ fnp in one assault squad

Blood Lance from a Librarian, I assume?

Sanguinary Priests are indeed ICs, that's their main drawback IMO (they could have made them attachment characters like Wolf Guard, but then they'd be broken at 50 points + equipment).

Is the SP FC/FNP-bubble 6" even when attached to a squad, or will it affect the whole squad no matter the distance?

I'm pretty sure it's "units" rather than "models", so one priest could easily have multiple squads benefiting from his chalice.

Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

It does if it pops smoke, not otherwise. Only >12" moving skimmers get the free obscured rule.

Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

Sanguinary priest is pretty much an uber apothecary, not a librarian

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Are you still referring to DC? Because bolters are the only ranged weapon they can take.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Are you still referring to DC? Because bolters are the only ranged weapon they can take.

No, they can get special pistol weapons, 1 for every 5. But yes, the only weapons that they can take that can make use of Relentless are the bolters.

AICN review: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44317

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

And boring...lacking any soul at all. At the end of the day, once people start playing they are going realize they need bolters in their lists. The assault marine/ vehicle discount is a fad.

OK, *why* are people going to need Bolters? For AP5?

CKO wrote:I dont think the razorback spam list will work either.

I agree. It's a fad...just like Combining SOBs with Vulcan lists were when the C:SM codex came out...or the 3 sterguard, pedro drop lists. It's funny you never see those lists anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, *why* are people going to need Bolters? For AP5?

To put lots of wounds to target. Do you really think your predators of OMGAWESOME! are going to get more than one turn of shooting given their weak a$$ side armor? Where is your massed fire coming from? AV11 razorbacks? Spare me...

Breotan wrote:AICN review: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44317

Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with both the 40K community and GW today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

Placing a premium on min/maxing

Abandonment of long established fluff

etc., etc.

Sounds like the tourney set will love it though and so will GW's accountants...

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Bolters? Meh.

Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with the 40K community today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

I completely agree.

Placing a premium on min/maxing

etc., etc.

I completely agree.

Sounds like the tourney set should will love it though...

And all the hambeasts with DIY chapters. Suddenly this new book "fits" better with their "homebrew" chapter...LOL...that is until the new Black Templars codex comes out and then that one will "Fit" better because rhinos will be so cheap that they actually can make a second rhino for free...LOL

i'm not seeing the problem here. assault squads in rhinos and tactical squads fill two different roles on the battlefield. one is cheap scoring close combat while the other is close range firepower. in fact, i plan on using one to two of each depending on the army i'm facing. the fact that they're exactly !! the same point cost makes them easy to flip in between. 10 tacticals with a flamer and multimelta and rhino cost the same as 10 assault marines (without jump packs) with a flamer, melta (not multimelta), and rhino. i'm not saying that the above is an optimal loadout but just that there really is no difference in cost between the two. each has its niche to fill.

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Which all gets bounced 50% of the time with cover saves. I'd rather do more wounds than rely on a scatter die. Don't get me wrong, those weapons have their place, but not for digging units out of cover. Driving 18" to deliver Rapid Fire death is awesome. Man I wish my SOB's could do that. Charge in the following turn and clean up the mess. Rhino rush with bolters ala 3rd edition is going to make a comeback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:i'm not seeing the problem here. assault squads in rhinos and tactical squads fill two different roles on the battlefield. one is cheap scoring close combat while the other is close range firepower. in fact, i plan on using one to two of each depending on the army i'm facing. the fact that they're exactly !! the same point cost makes them easy to flip in between. 10 tacticals with a flamer and multimelta and rhino cost the same as 10 assault marines (without jump packs) with a flamer, melta (not multimelta), and rhino. i'm not saying that the above is an optimal loadout but just that there really is no difference in cost between the two. each has its niche to fill.

Agreed. Assault marines will have a place, but not the carbon copy spam I've been hearing about. At some point, bolters are needed. That's all I'm saying.

jbunny wrote:Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

No you don't. The IC has to be moved first only during pile in moves, not during the initial assault move.

And I have to laugh at people that discount the bolter. These are usually the same folks deriding the Tactical Squad as garbage. *there really needs to be an eyeroll orkmoticon*

jbunny wrote:
Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

This is only true for the defenders react move after being assaulted. Most of the time you do want your IC to be the first to assault so you can get him stuck in since he has to be in base contact to fight, but there is no requirement in the rules for them to do so.

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

So do you think the librarian is the way?100 points for 25 jump pack? to have the psychic powers?Or what other hq?no special characters...

Ps in an assault squad flamers are 10 points(maybe 5)...why don't take just meltaguns???

Why not use 9 RAS w/SHP in a rhino and just don't get your shp out when you disembark? Yes I know that takes away 1 Special weapon but honestly just upgrade the sargent with an infernous pistol.

By the way I really don't think that the BA are OTT in any way. I think the Dante/Corbolo 24" bubble of doom was way more powerful.

Basically there are going to be several strong builds.

G

What what what what
no flesh tearers picture
no more green blow fly????

I think my sanguinary guard spam is going to sweep ard boyz this year.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

And boring...lacking any soul at all. At the end of the day, once people start playing they are going realize they need bolters in their lists. The assault marine/ vehicle discount is a fad.

"Check out all the Bolters in this list...its going to RULE the tournament scene!"

Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. HtH wins battles, HEAVY firepower wins battles. Bolters...kill a couple guys.

A fad? lolz!


I agree with DeadShane - BAs are going to have a heck of a strong gun line and the only bolters you'll see will be on death company, heh.

Deadshane1 wrote:Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. Hurricane Bolters win battles, lots and lots of Hurricane Bolters wins battles. Bolters...make good spare parts.

Fixed.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with the 40K community today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

I completely agree.

Placing a premium on min/maxing

etc., etc.

I completely agree.

Sounds like the tourney set should will love it though...

And all the hambeasts with DIY chapters. Suddenly this new book "fits" better with their "homebrew" chapter...LOL...that is until the new Black Templars codex comes out and then that one will "Fit" better because rhinos will be so cheap that they actually can make a second rhino for free...LOL

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately. At least people who own a marine force have a decent platform from which to 'counts-as' whatever chapter they like. Having more options is never a bad thing.

Breotan wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. Hurricane Bolters win battles, lots and lots of Hurricane Bolters wins battles. Bolters...make good spare parts.

Fixed.

Ahem....actually, volume firepower still wins battles (and yes, this does include bolters), HtH just cleans up the rest....(we are talking about astartes here, not cheap-throw-away horde-troop units like orks or bugs yes?)

Also, since there seems to be some weird sort of consensus that BA's are not going to need bolters or said firepower, let us remember that they are NOT a cheap horde army, and that probably due to their points-cost, there will be a substantially lighter model count when opposing the other army in general....

We will all see how the various lists will play, but spouting that they do not need small arms is rather silly....one would think that as "veteran" as this community has been over the years that you all would not have forgotten the basic tenets of the game yes?

I believe CapnK is on the money here.....one will still need the base-line volume-firepower units to support those tricky assault units down the field.

Balance seems to win more than an over-indulgence of one specific form of fighting.....just my two cents...carry on!

6 shooting rounds of combat in a game, possible 11 rounds of close combat.. (in a 6 turn game - do your own math for longer or shorter games )

In order to get it done only in the shooting phase you need a HECK of a lot of shooting like the guard.

BAs can do heavy lifting in both of those phases but the strengths and the volume of fire are coming from las cannons, plasma guns, melta guns/pistols and flame templates.. NOT bolters.

jbunny wrote:

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

Nope, the person that was assaulted has to move the ICs in their unit first, the assaulter is free to move the rest of his unit before the IC. Though hiding them in a vehicle is still likely the better of ideas.

...And I am quite late to the party in saying this so I shall wander off now.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Which all gets bounced 50% of the time with cover saves. I'd rather do more wounds than rely on a scatter die. Don't get me wrong, those weapons have their place, but not for digging units out of cover.

You know, not everything on the other side of the board is always in cover. Sometimes there are other things to shoot. And dislodging units in cover? Probably best done by fast-moving Assault Troops with grenades. I wonder what armies have that capability...

There is so much epeen waving going on in this thread, it's ridiculous.

Just remember the old adage, folks, the guy screaming loudest has the least to say.

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Wow....snarky much...? Don't think I ever read that in any of the above-mentioned posts.....

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Do tell.....please define this great decline of 40k Civilization...? Now who's crying "Wah, people aren't supporting the game like I do.....wah"?

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately.

Oh, so now it's GW's fault for this stagnation....? Wait, what....?

Having more options is never a bad thing.

And this is what makes the game what it is.....

Now, for a true rebuttal; I believe what some posters are stating is that some players find it easy to switch from the next "hot-item" in newly released marine codexes, while there are some players who like a specific chapter and stick with it through thick and thin. Some people call the former "band-wagoneers", always jumping on the latest and greatest......and that's fine with me, however, there are some of us old-schoolers/veterans that stick with our chosen chapter regardless of what the new hype is.

Now personally, I don't care about any of that, maybe some players cannot afford to build an entirely new marine army from the ground up like some of us veterans can or maybe there are other issues at stake.....regardless, it matters not to me. However, it does seem rather obvious that those that do jump on the wagon, changing their current marines to the latest inception, maybe are just trying to get an edge....(like that's really an edge).

I've been playing since '94 in the heady days of 2nd edition (just so you all know where I'm comming from) and I've seen lots of things in this hobby/game. GW isn't stagnating anything; their models are getting better and the quality of the product appears to be at an all-time-high. I'll keep buying if things continue, but trust me, I don't willingly lap up the GW kool-aid either.....players can do what they want, however, I don't think any amount of sticking to one's chosen marine army is stagnating the game. As long as they keep releasing decent models, people will always buy.

I don't mind DIY chapters either because I think that adds to the game personally, and it is a breath of fresh air; that being said I admire chapter "loyalty" as well. My Ultramarines just keep getting bigger.....especially for those Apoc games, it's great, however, like I said before, if they keep kicking out decent product, I'm going to buy it, but I'm still running Ultras even though I think that all of the other chapters are cool too, no matter how tempting they are....if anything, like some have already mentioned, Raven Guard would fit nicely as a "counts-as" army for this codex.....and I'm actually thinking of building one myself.

So, pardon the rant all, I can see both sides of this deal.....though I'm sure there are valid considerations for both view-points.
Please forgive me for the counter-snarkyness....lol! I couldn't resist, it was nothing personal.....

ThirdUltra wrote:

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Wow....snarky much...? Don't think I ever read that in any of the above-mentioned posts.....

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Do tell.....please define this great decline of 40k Civilization...? Now who's crying "Wah, people aren't supporting the game like I do.....wah"?

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately.

Oh, so now it's GW's fault for this stagnation....? Wait, what....?

Having more options is never a bad thing.

And this is what makes the game what it is.....

Now, for a true rebuttal; I believe what some posters are stating is that some players find it easy to switch from the next "hot-item" in newly released marine codexes, while there are some players who like a specific chapter and stick with it through thick and thin. Some people call the former "band-wagoneers", always jumping on the latest and greatest......and that's fine with me, however, there are some of us old-schoolers/veterans that stick with our chosen chapter regardless of what the new hype is.

Now personally, I don't care about any of that, maybe some players cannot afford to build an entirely new marine army from the ground up like some of us veterans can or maybe there are other issues at stake.....regardless, it matters not to me. However, it does seem rather obvious that those that do jump on the wagon, changing their current marines to the latest inception, maybe are just trying to get an edge....(like that's really an edge).

I've been playing since '94 in the heady days of 2nd edition (just so you all know where I'm comming from) and I've seen lots of things in this hobby/game. GW isn't stagnating anything; their models are getting better and the quality of the product appears to be at an all-time-high. I'll keep buying if things continue, but trust me, I don't willingly lap up the GW kool-aid either.....players can do what they want, however, I don't think any amount of sticking to one's chosen marine army is stagnating the game. As long as they keep releasing decent models, people will always buy.

I don't mind DIY chapters either because I think that adds to the game personally, and it is a breath of fresh air; that being said I admire chapter "loyalty" as well. My Ultramarines just keep getting bigger.....especially for those Apoc games, it's great, however, like I said before, if they keep kicking out decent product, I'm going to buy it, but I'm still running Ultras even though I think that all of the other chapters are cool too, no matter how tempting they are....if anything, like some have already mentioned, Raven Guard would fit nicely as a "counts-as" army for this codex.....and I'm actually thinking of building one myself.

So, pardon the rant all, I can see both sides of this deal.....though I'm sure there are valid considerations for both view-points.
Please forgive me for the counter-snarkyness....lol! I couldn't resist, it was nothing personal.....

I'm not really saying the game is stagnating, I'm simply mocking people who think it is because GW's actions aren't lining up with their own vision of the game, and use crappy strawman arguments to justify their stupid views. Obviously having marine release after marine release can't stagnate the game - provided the releases are unique enough. (Having not read the codex, I have no way of judging that one way or another). If the models are selling, it's good for the game, end of story. Now that doesn't mean that I'M going to run out and buy a bunch of BA stuff - not that I wasn't contemplating it - but I won't be actively dissuading people by constantly bitching about the 40k landscape and GW. If anything, constantly complaining about a game, not buying its products or even boycotting them, and poisoning the perceptions of other players unjustly is what destroys a game.

Honestly, I don't understand the pride of people who loudly proclaim that they're not giving GW any money here, in 40k thread. The board is called DakkaDakka, for Emprah's sake. Nobody confiscated your 3E/4E rulebooks and models, and if you play in tournaments, you should have known that you would only ever succeed by adaptation anyway. Whether you like it or not, the state of balance is what it is, and while it would be nice if every army had stuff in line with the latest 5E codices, you should also realize how unfeasible that would be at this point.

Agreed; people will do what they want, regardless.

But like you said, and I agree, more options is better than none.

I don't recall it being mentioned here but after flipping through the Codex last night, I noticed that DC Dreads has the ability of fleet of foot. This alone is rather interesting as it makes mobility and the ability to close the distance in hth much better. What I failed to follow up on was to check if the Furioso, upgrade from Furioso to Lib or regular Dread in the codex also had the Fleet ability or is this only for DC Dreads?

Also while Mephiston is talked about in this thread not being a IC and the challenge it may be to get him into CC. He does have Fleet and with Wings of Sanguinius we are looking at 12" move followed by 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 19-24" charge range. If in a transport such as a raider 12" move 2" deploy 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 21-26" vault into CC. I assume this math is correct? The only thing other then not having a invulnerable save would be all 3 of his psychic powers are pre-chosen by the codex: Wings of Sanguinius, Sanguine Sword and Unleashed Rage ( I think it was unleashed rage ). Using Vehicles to catapult him or hide behind or staying making sure he has intervening models in front of him can give him all the invuln he may need. Still at his stats and toughness and modified Str of 10 with 6 attacks on a charge ( with rerolls ) it will be interesting to see if he can make back his points, tie up a key unit untill other Assault arive or take out a key character or vehicle.

Dante is also rather interesting as I believe he can be set up in a Land Raider Redeemer or LR with MM upgrade for hvy bolters vs Vehicle hvy armies, deepstrike it with no scatter. This can lead to some rather interesting stratagies pending on terrain and how your opponent sets up ( and no I don't mean suiciding in front of you opponents army ) such as forcing your opponent to deal with it buying time to set up the assault by your other units with fear of where the Baal Preds could show up from or if bunching up too much can make for good times for vindicators as well pending on builds.

All in all it looks like a fun codex with a ton of options ( at least at first ) to try and find out what kind of meta game it may lead to. As many have said, the codex also comes with drawbacks ie: no Combat Tactics ( w/o them many special characters from vanilla C:SM become useless as they are needed in order to be replaced by other names special abilities) and costs. As to deepstriking Land Raiders w/o using Dante? Scatter and a chance to lose 400+ w/o your opponent working for it just doesn't seem reliable enough pending on so many factors ( ie: Terrain, opponents set up and luck of the dice roll ).

Terminus wrote:

jbunny wrote:Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

No you don't. The IC has to be moved first only during pile in moves, not during the initial assault move.

And I have to laugh at people that discount the bolter. These are usually the same folks deriding the Tactical Squad as garbage. *there really needs to be an eyeroll orkmoticon*

there is one right next to the grinning one and the bug eyed one


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Borris the Blade wrote:I don't recall it being mentioned here but after flipping through the Codex last night, I noticed that DC Dreads has the ability of fleet of foot. This alone is rather interesting as it makes mobility and the ability to close the distance in hth much better. What I failed to follow up on was to check if the Furioso, upgrade from Furioso to Lib or regular Dread in the codex also had the Fleet ability or is this only for DC Dreads?

Also while Mephiston is talked about in this thread not being a IC and the challenge it may be to get him into CC. He does have Fleet and with Wings of Sanguinius we are looking at 12" move followed by 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 19-24" charge range. If in a transport such as a raider 12" move 2" deploy 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 21-26" vault into CC. I assume this math is correct? The only thing other then not having a invulnerable save would be all 3 of his psychic powers are pre-chosen by the codex: Wings of Sanguinius, Sanguine Sword and Unleashed Rage ( I think it was unleashed rage ). Using Vehicles to catapult him or hide behind or staying making sure he has intervening models in front of him can give him all the invuln he may need. Still at his stats and toughness and modified Str of 10 with 6 attacks on a charge ( with rerolls ) it will be interesting to see if he can make back his points, tie up a key unit untill other Assault arive or take out a key character or vehicle.

Dante is also rather interesting as I believe he can be set up in a Land Raider Redeemer or LR with MM upgrade for hvy bolters vs Vehicle hvy armies, deepstrike it with no scatter. This can lead to some rather interesting stratagies pending on terrain and how your opponent sets up ( and no I don't mean suiciding in front of you opponents army ) such as forcing your opponent to deal with it buying time to set up the assault by your other units with fear of where the Baal Preds could show up from or if bunching up too much can make for good times for vindicators as well pending on builds.

All in all it looks like a fun codex with a ton of options ( at least at first ) to try and find out what kind of meta game it may lead to. As many have said, the codex also comes with drawbacks ie: no Combat Tactics ( w/o them many special characters from vanilla C:SM become useless as they are needed in order to be replaced by other names special abilities) and costs. As to deepstriking Land Raiders w/o using Dante? Scatter and a chance to lose 400+ w/o your opponent working for it just doesn't seem reliable enough pending on so many factors ( ie: Terrain, opponents set up and luck of the dice roll ).

Dante has a jump pack the only transport he can ride in is the stormraven.

Dante has a jump pack the only transport he can ride in is the stormraven.

Damn! I hate small details like that! Oh well so much for the deep striking napalm idea =(


Appreciate the heads up

Dante is good for anti-pysker defense coupled with a librarian

I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

jbunny wrote:I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

But as an IC counts as a seperate unit in CC, he won't get to attack.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Basically there are going to be several strong builds.

G

Agreed.

UltraPrime wrote:

jbunny wrote:I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

But as an IC counts as a seperate unit in CC, he won't get to attack.

Yes but when you whole army strategy relies on single wound IC's with only a 3+ save and no power weapons, you don't want power weapons attacking them in close combat. I would give up there 2-3 attacks and keep them alive.

jbunny wrote:Yes but when you whole army strategy relies on single wound IC's with only a 3+ save and no power weapons, you don't want power weapons attacking them in close combat. I would give up there 2-3 attacks and keep them alive.

Yes, I see your point.

"Check out all the Bolters in this list...its going to RULE the tournament scene!"

In several months time you'll see once people start playing around with their lists. Trust me tactical squads will be needed to be flexible. BA armies will have a low model count as it is, they'll need the extra firepower. Furious charging tacticals are still just as dangerous.

Are you serious?

Yup. Dead serious. As a templar player I can attest to the potential weaknesses of an army loaded with BP/ CCW. I find it funny how my hurricane bolters in my LRCs usually are getting the job done...yeah I guess mass bolter fire directed at targets doesn't work...lol. You can get the same effect with multiple tactical squads bearing down on a flank or a weak spot in the opponents army.

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles.

I'm not claiming them to win battles. I'm saying there is still a need for the range game with BA. Standoff shooting in volume is still key. 2 tactical squads driving up with a flamer + loads of bolters is going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Hanging back at the 18-24" range can help as well. The BA have plenty of close combat units that get the job done better than 5 man assault squads. You think IG is afraid of 5 guys spammed in 4 units? Try again. Razorbacks will be able to move and shoot better since they are fast, but at the end of the day you're primary move and shoot platforms are AV11. It doesn't take much to stop them from shooting. If they aren't shooting your army isn't doing much other than driving around.

HtH wins battles, HEAVY firepower wins battles.

Since when is massed bolter fire not considered heavy firepower? HTH doesn't win battles all the time. In fact being overly aggressive in HTH can be a liability sometimes. Again, as a BT player I can understand this. My army is predominantly HTH, but I also need the fire power of the humble bolter to get it done as well.

Bolters...kill a couple guys.

Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Are the librarian dreads allowed to swap their DCCW for the blood talons?

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

It has nothing do with any adherence to a particular vision and more to do with people constantly changing their DIY marines to the new codex based on the excuse that it "fits" better when we all know it's because they need to use the latest OMG flavor of the month. You don't need a calculator to do the math on this one...feth, you can do it on a damn abacus. Those people exist and in bigger numbers than you think. I saw it before in 3rd edition when BA came out as well. Suddenly Jimmy's Ultramarines got painted red because Jimmy didn't like the fact that his Ultramarines didn't get Furious Charge, etc. It's lame.

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Sure it is. Any purchases made support the game. I own 4 armies and I'm constantly adding to them. But since this codex came out I'm not going to suddenly stop playing my Templars...paint them red, and call them BA because they do everything my Templars do for cheaper points cost.

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately. At least people who own a marine force have a decent platform from which to 'counts-as' whatever chapter they like. Having more options is never a bad thing.

The problem with about 95% of the DIY chapter players I see is that they constantly flip-flop between what they deem to be the strongest marine codex and suddenly their DIY chapter changes. What once was a codex astartes chapter suddenly woke up one day and became a chapter with a defect, likes BP/CCW all of the sudden, and somehow acquired a metric sh!t ton of Jump packs...LOL. I find it funny that most of these so-called DIY chapters are also in a perpetual state of primer black or bare metal/plastic. Afterall, if you commit to a chapter color you are stuck right?

Could you guys stop vetching and actually stay on the topic of the codex?

I really cant buy what you're selling Captain.

Marine troop choices have generally been hard to use until now with the newer codexes. The better Vanilla lists that I've seen out there feature Vulkan for his melta/Flamer ability.

I havent noticed many awesome Lysander lists out there with him making bolter fire more effective.

People bring tacticals for more/free special/heavy weapons. Sure they fire their bolters....cause thats all they got. The fact is that people struggle to make tacticals useful in large amounts. They're resiliant and hard to kill, twice so after throwing them in a rhino, but destructive?...thanx to their bolters? No, not really. Lots of bolters firing can do some damage, but its not really anything that people are afraid of. ESPECIALLY now that FNP is becomming so common on the battlefeild. The list of things bolters are inneffective against is FAR greater than the things they work against nowadays. Fire bolters at even gaunts, if the tervigon throws FNP on them and half of that brood is out of line of sight for a cover save, you'll be lucky to kill two of the 30 with your precious bolter fire, now, if you've got a flamer in that unit....GREAT...maybe. You quoted cover as being a defense against the Las-Back list, cover works two ways pal, hordes get cover against your bolter fire too, then where are you at. Bolters dont exactly wound anything on a 2+.


Wolf Grey hunters can lay down some bolter fire...which is "nice" but the real damage seems to hit when you charge in against them and after rapid-firing they countercharge you with fists and CCW's. The bolter fire is simply something to do in the meantime.

Now you've got an obviously useful unit in a troops section of the BA list. Assault troops. Often (if not always) with FNP and/or Furious charge. Sometimes getting extra attacks from the Sanguinor or the Chapter Banner (or +2 from both?). These units are truly useful, the only thing tacticals truly have over them is free special/heavy weapons when you pick up a full squad. Bolters? You're better off firing bolt pistols into combat then charging in with your furious charge. Anything you cannot stomp in close combat...im highly doubtful that your bolters would "win the day" against such a target....

Charge 5 assault marines against a swarmlord? Suicide? Sure!
Rapid fire 5 tacticals agaisnt a swarmlord? Effective? Probably not.

Boltermarines > Assault Marines, I find this hard to beleive.


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dereksatkinson wrote:Could you guys stop vetching and actually stay on the topic of the codex?

And your post has any more to do with BA's....how?

Eh...blow it out your bolter....!


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CaptKaruthors wrote:
The problem with about 95% of the DIY chapter players I see is that they constantly flip-flop between what they deem to be the strongest marine codex and suddenly their DIY chapter changes. What once was a codex astartes chapter suddenly woke up one day and became a chapter with a defect, likes BP/CCW all of the sudden, and somehow acquired a metric sh!t ton of Jump packs...LOL. I find it funny that most of these so-called DIY chapters are also in a perpetual state of primer black or bare metal/plastic. Afterall, if you commit to a chapter color you are stuck right?

I see no problem whatsoever with someone painting his own marine army and flipflopping between books to try different things keeping his "marine game" fresh and new to himself.

After all, who's toys are they anyway? Cannot he decide for himself how he wants to play with them?

What are you REALLY angry about Capt?

Deadshane1 wrote:And your post has any more to do with BA's....how?

My previous post asked if the librarian dread could take blood talons.

The discussion you guys are having belongs in the discussions forum, not news and rumors.

About tac marines, a key thing with them is knowing when to rapid fire and when to assault. They can do both well, but not excellent (that's why they are tactical marines). You don't try to out shoot the shooty units and assault the choppy units.

As for BA, has anyone heard or seen rumors about a model for this lander vehicle?

I really cant buy what you're selling Captain.

Fair enough. In a few months time we'll see what builds are doing the best in games.

Marine troop choices have generally been hard to use until now with the newer codexes. The better Vanilla lists that I've seen out there feature Vulkan for his melta/Flamer ability.

I don't agree with that at all, but I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I've seen some pretty killer marine lists that don't rely on Vulkan.

I havent noticed many awesome Lysander lists out there with him making bolter fire more effective.

Hmmm, you haven't seen Lysander/ Sternguard or Lysander/ terminators?

People bring tacticals for more/free special/heavy weapons. Sure they fire their bolters....cause thats all they got.

Of course, but they don't have to rush into combat either. They have options to trade fire. BA tacticals are great because I can drive 18" and get to where I need to get to go, OR I can trade fire.

The fact is that people struggle to make tacticals useful in large amounts. They're resiliant and hard to kill, twice so after throwing them in a rhino, but destructive?...thanx to their bolters?

It isn't about being destructive all the time. It's about being able to adapt quicker. If your BP/ CCW guys are stuck on the other side of the table, suddenly you are going to wish you had some type of shooting. How many turns of quality shooting are your razorbacks really going get?

No, not really. Lots of bolters firing can do some damage, but its not really anything that people are afraid of. ESPECIALLY now that FNP is becomming so common on the battlefeild.

Granted, but FNP can only get you so far. Eventually you'll lose the unit that grants it, or the unit with FNP will be reduced to combat ineffectiveness.

The list of things bolters are inneffective against is FAR greater than the things they work against nowadays. Fire bolters at even gaunts, if the tervigon throws FNP on them and half of that brood is out of line of sight for a cover save, you'll be lucky to kill two of the 30 with your precious bolter fire, now, if you've got a flamer in that unit....GREAT...maybe.

LOL. Yeah, because tyranid players everywhere are FNPing their gaunts all the time...LOL. If they did that I'd laugh and shoot the Tervigon instead.

You quoted cover as being a defense against the Las-Back list, cover works two ways pal, hordes get cover against your bolter fire too, then where are you at.

Hahahaha. With the exception of Orks, most hordes are T3. Regardless of cover saves, I'm still landing more wounds than the odd blast template. Additionally, most tactical squads are also packing flamers....looks to me like I'm still doing more wounds against weak toughness armies. Hell even against SOB it hurts...because at the end of the day while they have a 3+ save they are still toughness 3.

Bolters dont exactly wound anything on a 2+.

Nope but 3+ is just as good in most cases. Sternguard can, but then we are not talking about a scoring unit in the BAs case, so I don't really factor them in. Vanilla marines on the other hand can make them scoring. But lets just stick to BA tacticals.

Wolf Grey hunters can lay down some bolter fire...which is "nice" but the real damage seems to hit when you charge in against them and after rapid-firing they countercharge you with fists and CCW's. The bolter fire is simply something to do in the meantime.

Agreed, but most people will just continue to shoot them and not charge them. Why would I give them a benefit like that when I can simply eliminate them in the shooting phase? Unless you have wittled GH down, charging them is a waste. Shooting them to combat ineffectiveness seems like a better alternative to me.

Now you've got an obviously useful unit in a troops section of the BA list. Assault troops. Often (if not always) with FNP and/or Furious charge. Sometimes getting extra attacks from the Sanguinor or the Chapter Banner (or +2 from both?).

But 5 guys per squad doesn't give me a lot of hope to grind it out with some of the armies I've been seeing on the tables as of late. +2 attacks? So what? You've spent a ton of points on a nifty ability that might not even used if they have to walk. It's not like what they are riding in isn't easy to kill quickly. 25 marines in a list doesn't scare me at all.

These units are truly useful, the only thing tacticals truly have over them is free special/heavy weapons when you pick up a full squad. Bolters? You're better off firing bolt pistols into combat then charging in with your furious charge.

Um how is that possible when I disembark after I moved already unless I'm now taking landraiders? Afterall, your precious assault marines are going to have to sit a turn before they get out and with no firepoints on a razorback...it's not like they'll be doing anything other than praying their ride doesn't blow up. Now tacticals, can get out, shoot a round of good shooting, then follow up with a charge in the next turn. I'm not saying you eliminate assault units completely from a BA list, because they definitely have uses as well as other units that are far better at assault than basic assault marines.

Anything you cannot stomp in close combat...im highly doubtful that your bolters would "win the day" against such a target....

Against a several 5 man squads? Really? I don't agree.

Charge 5 assault marines against a swarmlord? Suicide? Sure!
Rapid fire 5 tacticals agaisnt a swarmlord? Effective? Probably not.

5 tacticals shooting at 24" gives me 3 turns of shooting a swarmlord. So yes in a vacuum I'll probably do more damage to the swarmlord in the long run.

Boltermarines > Assault Marines, I find this hard to beleive.

I guess believe what you want. I'm not going to convince you. We'll see in a few months time when people actively start using BA in tournaments, etc. My guess is the that strongest builds will include tactical squads to some degree.

pdawg517 wrote:About tac marines, a key thing with them is knowing when to rapid fire and when to assault. They can do both well, but not excellent (that's why they are tactical marines). You don't try to out shoot the shooty units and assault the choppy units.

As for BA, has anyone heard or seen rumors about a model for this lander vehicle?

No news that I've heard about the lander (Stormraven Gunship). There's the new tank supplement in a few months, which will have new plastic models, but the specific ones haven't been announced yet. I wouldn't expect a model for at least a few months though (unless FW have been working on one, but nothing's been announced there either).

If you really want to use a Stormraven, either scratch-build/kit-bash one or use 'counts-as' (with your opponents permission though). I'd personally be fine with someone using a Valkyrie to represent it, but some people will have issues as the Stormraven is likely meant to be a lot bigger.

As for the tactical marine vs assault marine debate, I'll be running a jump-pack heavy list, which should prove hilarious when my entire army Mishaps For larger games I still run some Tactical Marines though for their versatility- fast Rhinos and Razorbacks are going to be really useful for storming objectives, or even rushing to defend one that's being contested.

I see no problem whatsoever with someone painting his own marine army and flipflopping between books to try different things keeping his "marine game" fresh and new to himself.

Hey as long as you are okay with playing vs. unpainted grey/black primed marines all the time who am I to say anything, right?

After all, who's toys are they anyway? Cannot he decide for himself how he wants to play with them?

Again, if you are cool with playing against unfinished armies all the time more power to you.

What are you REALLY angry about Capt?

If I told people the world would cease to exist...LOL.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

It's called bust the tank THEN take out the 5-man Squad with bolter fire.

A good player can plan out his target priority and order of fire to pull that off easily enough.

Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

It's called ranged shooting from other aspects of a list to bust tanks. Last time I checked, AV11 isn't all that difficult to penetrate. There is a lot of armies out there that excel at it even.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

No actually, I'm talking about bolters vs. infantry units. I think anybody that plays this game and has half a brain realizes the tanks go boom first, then you shoot the guys inside...OR wait until they charge a disposable unit with their limited-in-number-5-man-scoring-units and then watch them die once they wipe out a pointless unit. 4 to 5 units of 5 guys can't eat the attrition rate that other armies can. Again only 25 marines on the table doesn't scare me.

dereksatkinson wrote:Are the librarian dreads allowed to swap their DCCW for the blood talons?

No.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

Except no he is not. He said you still need a strong mid-range capability because AV11 fire platforms are not exactly difficult to silence. This is the usual 40k forum debate, with one guy trying to share lessons learned from his games and other guys going "lulz, that's not what the rants we read on the internetz and then parrot on other forums say." I'll give you a hint: the folks making sweeping proclamations about how an army whose book hasn't even been published yet "should be played" tend to fall into the second camp.

Neith wrote: There's the new tank supplement in a few months, which will have new plastic models, but the specific ones haven't been announced yet. I wouldn't expect a model for at least a few months though (unless FW have been working on one, but nothing's been announced there either).

Last I heard there will be recut LR battle tanks and SM predators, and new kits for the ork warbuggy/wartrack/skorcha and Eldar Prism. A raven is unlikely Since we haven't seen illustrations for it, much less greens or initial sculpts.

Terminus wrote:
Last I heard there will be recut LR battle tanks and SM predators, and new kits for the ork warbuggy/wartrack/skorcha and Eldar Prism. A raven is unlikely Since we haven't seen illustrations for it, much less greens or initial sculpts.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for a Stormraven kit- while Spearhead would be an ideal time to release it, I think honestly that if it ever does get a model it'll be alongside a new C:SM (and the Stormraven will be added to vanilla Marines). I'm terrible at scratchbuilding so if there isn't a GW/FW kit, I'll just do without unless I feel really adventurous

Hmmm, you haven't seen Lysander/ Sternguard or Lysander/ terminators?

I thought we were talking about tacticals, not storm bolters or special ammo troops (which effectively have different guns).

[LOL. Yeah, because tyranid players everywhere are FNPing their gaunts all the time...LOL. If they did that I'd laugh and shoot the Tervigon instead.

I don't think the tervigon is worried about your scary bolters. It takes three to get past its save, it takes six to make it take a wound, and it takes 3 shots to hit two times. A full tac squad double tapping with bolters has less than a 50% chance of causing a single wound. You would have to do that six times in a row.

It isn't about being destructive all the time. It's about being able to adapt quicker. If your BP/ CCW guys are stuck on the other side of the table, suddenly you are going to wish you had some type of shooting. How many turns of quality shooting are your razorbacks really going get?

How many turns are your footslogging bolter dudes going to get in the same situation? If they have to walk to their objective they'll likely waste 2 there, get two turns of heavy weapons fire (And maybe 7 bolter shots a turn at 24" if unmolested) and probably end up either decimated, gone to ground, or assaulted for two turns of the game. I run a tactical heavy vanilla marine list and thats about the situation I tend to find myself in, typically I'm better off assaulting with shrikes fleet then I am double tapping against most targets.

ahahaha. With the exception of Orks, most hordes are T3. Regardless of cover saves, I'm still landing more wounds than the odd blast template. Additionally, most tactical squads are also packing flamers....looks to me like I'm still doing more wounds against weak toughness armies. Hell even against SOB it hurts...because at the end of the day while they have a 3+ save they are still toughness 3.

Orks are t4, tyranids are t3, and guard are AV12-14. Your bolters aren't going to do much to a guard swarm sitting in its own deployment zone and outgunning you.

Um how is that possible when I disembark after I moved already unless I'm now taking landraiders? Afterall, your precious assault marines are going to have to sit a turn before they get out and with no firepoints on a razorback...it's not like they'll be doing anything other than praying their ride doesn't blow up. Now tacticals, can get out, shoot a round of good shooting, then follow up with a charge in the next turn. I'm not saying you eliminate assault units completely from a BA list, because they definitely have uses as well as other units that are far better at assault than basic assault marines.

Define good. With one special, one heavy, and one pistol or combi on the sergant you're left with 7 bolters vs the 7 bolt pistols the assaults have. You get 7 more shots for one single round. 7 shots, 4 2/3 hits 2 1/3 wounds against orks extra. Congradulations you just killed a whole 15 extra points of orks, or more likely zero extra points of marines as those 7 shots are less than half likely to kill a MEQ.

Dems good shootin'!

5 tacticals shooting at 24" gives me 3 turns of shooting a swarmlord. So yes in a vacuum I'll probably do more damage to the swarmlord in the long run.

Not really, with your extra 7/7/and 12 shots you'll hit 16 and 2/3rd times. Wound 2.6 times. And are still less than half likely to break through it's basic save. The assaults extra attacks aren't doing much better really, but they hold better in combat resolution against anything assaulting them. The cheap heavy weapon would tilt it towards tacs, though im confused as to why you would try to kill it with tacs anyway.

I guess believe what you want. I'm not going to convince you. We'll see in a few months time when people actively start using BA in tournaments, etc. My guess is the that strongest builds will include tactical squads to some degree.

They have different uses in different lists. The impetus to switch came I believe from the cheaper vehicle options making them more attractive in minimum squad sizes (where they basically get comped a razorback when in the same situation the tacticals would have to be 10 man squads to get a similar and less mobile heavy weapon).

It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

The only real use I've ever had for bolters is in dealing with the absolute dregs of an enemy unit that has 2-3 models left in cover.

BA Tacticals may serve the same role as IG PIS in sitting at the very back of the table on objectives in a rhino, but unless they can get a heavy weapon in 5 man squads I kind of doubt that they'll see much use in this application.

I think the real hair splitter is that Assault Marines with no jump packs in a transport are net cheaper than Tacticals in a transport. Whether you regard Tacs as better than AsstM or vice versa, I doubt anybody cares; just like with Marine lists, the focus is going to be on getting in as many Elite/Heavy/Fast choices as possible around a resilient scoring troops. AsstM's fit that role better simply because they're cheaper.

Hrmm i love the interwebz.

By going with most people around here vanilla Marines HAVE to suck hard.

Because all i get are bolter marines. OMG, i will lose, i cannot win, i do not have Assault marines as troops QQ.

Lol.

I am playing CSM mostly, but i have already smashed Nids and Space Wolves without giving the enemy a single killpoint, because of trusty S4 fire. Once noise marines and once the inferno rounds type. I try to run massed CSM because theyre cheaper than the special CC squads. BA will be no different.



But this special army list of 25 marines that are scoring? Dont make me laugh, i normally swamp the field with 40+. I once managed to put 60+ CSM on the field when playing defensive footsloggers. It works.

sourclams wrote:The only real use I've ever had for bolters is in dealing with the absolute dregs of an enemy unit that has 2-3 models left in cover.

BA Tacticals may serve the same role as IG PIS in sitting at the very back of the table on objectives in a rhino, but unless they can get a heavy weapon in 5 man squads I kind of doubt that they'll see much use in this application.

I think the real hair splitter is that Assault Marines with no jump packs in a transport are net cheaper than Tacticals in a transport. Whether you regard Tacs as better than AsstM or vice versa, I doubt anybody cares; just like with Marine lists, the focus is going to be on getting in as many Elite/Heavy/Fast choices as possible around a resilient scoring troops. AsstM's fit that role better simply because they're cheaper.

The funny thing is I think I may switch to the BA for my space sharks. Vanilla marines haven't been doing it for me (too poor in assault and no good elite assault troops other than assault termies which I find cheesy) and I have a marine army with 40 tacticals. My composition will change little in all likelyhood, simply switching out fleet (from shrike) to maybe furious charge sometimes. I'll have all those real important bolters though my experience with them leads me to think that while they're nice I'll probably just end up using them in the same way as before (ablative squads and concentrated mass saturation on troops weakened by the big guns). Any squad that gains furious charge will likely never bother to double tap its bolters (short of dumping out of the rhino).

So... about Blood Angels...

I thought we were talking about tacticals, not storm bolters or special ammo troops (which effectively have different guns).

Nice way of picking a sentence out of context Shummy. That sentence was in reference to the hypothetical application of decent midrange bolter delivery. A bolter is a bolter is a bolter...regardless of source. I'm talking midrange shooting. Tacticals specifically. Something assault squads lack. In the case of C:SM Sternguard can score so qualify. However, I even mentioned later that we just focus the discussion on BA tacticals.

I don't think the tervigon is worried about your scary bolters. It takes three to get past its save, it takes six to make it take a wound, and it takes 3 shots to hit two times. A full tac squad double tapping with bolters has less than a 50% chance of causing a single wound. You would have to do that six times in a row.

No, but he should be worried about the other things that a tactical squad can carry...or better yet the fact that I can standoff with this unit at 24" and chip away it's wounds with bolters + heavy weapons. All these examples of "in a vacuum" situations is amusing. I think any sane marine player will know when to use his tactical squads best. They simply have more flexibility than the BP/CCW squads. Trust me, I play an army full of BP/CCW squads. Sometimes your targets of opportunity are limited when your shooting is only a pistol with a range of 12" and your BP/CCW squads can't always win when more shooting is required from your army.

How many turns are your footslogging bolter dudes going to get in the same situation? If they have to walk to their objective they'll likely waste 2 there, get two turns of heavy weapons fire (And maybe 7 bolter shots a turn at 24" if unmolested) and probably end up either decimated, gone to ground, or assaulted for two turns of the game. I run a tactical heavy vanilla marine list and thats about the situation I tend to find myself in, typically I'm better off assaulting with shrikes fleet then I am double tapping against most targets.

Who's footslogging their BA tacticals? Most marine players I see running tacticals have them mounted in some capacity (in the case of BA, most assuredly you'll see them in rhinos). If the option exists you combat squad, mount 5 and the other 5 camp and shoot heavy weapons. That's where the flexibility comes in. I have options. What options do I truly have with 5 man BP/CCW squads other than move into a position to
assault? With BA tacticals I can do both.

Orks are t4, tyranids are t3, and guard are AV12-14. Your bolters aren't going to do much to a guard swarm sitting in its own deployment zone and outgunning you.

Remember that an army works together. Busting transports is usually done by other elements of your army. I would hope that a sensible person realizes that tacticals can't do it all on their own. Like I've maintained from the beginning, spamming assault squads in a BA army isn't going to be as effective as everyone claims. We'll wait and see how it turns out in the coming months. Additionally, the spam army like that reeks of a lack of originality/ creativity and will surely pay for it on the table top. If it was so good, why aren't Templars or Space Wolves doing it? Both have the ability to do it.

Define good.

Define the situation? Seriously is this really that tough? You pick your battles where it gives you the best advantage...thus you get as close to "good" as you can get. You can't just cherry pick.

With one special, one heavy, and one pistol or combi on the sergant you're left with 7 bolters vs the 7 bolt pistols the assaults have. You get 7 more shots for one single round. 7 shots, 4 2/3 hits 2 1/3 wounds against orks extra. Congradulations you just killed a whole 15 extra points of orks, or more likely zero extra points of marines as those 7 shots are less than half likely to kill a MEQ.

What about the tact squad with a flamer and a combi-flamer? Sounds to me like more dead orks and marines. If I pit my tactical squad vs. a 5 man assault squad like that...guess who's in trouble? As for the Orks? I'll take my chances with 14 bolter shots, and lots of template hits with multiple flamers on a unit. Charging them is only asking for a drawn out combat that I may not win. In the same situation how well do you really think a 5 man assault squad is going to fair vs. an ork mob? You can't eat that kind of attrition, son.

Not really, with your extra 7/7/and 12 shots you'll hit 16 and 2/3rd times. Wound 2.6 times. And are still less than half likely to break through it's basic save.

Well, 2.6 times is better than the other alternative. Additionally with combined fire from say another tactical squad you could effectively kill it before it reached you.

The assaults extra attacks aren't doing much better really, but they hold better in combat resolution against anything assaulting them.

5 assault marines attacking a swarmlord may never even get a chance to kill it, before he kills the entire squad.

The cheap heavy weapon would tilt it towards tacs, though im confused as to why you would try to kill it with tacs anyway.

Thus the inherent flexibility you get with the tactical marine. Assault marines are good at one thing...assaulting. Why take 5 man squads of them.. spam it, and think you are on to a winning strategy with that? I didn't give the example with a swarmlord...I'm merely responding to what another poster gave as an example. Obviously you'd shoot it with something else. Again it doesn't take a genius to know when to get the tacticals involved. That being said, at least at the midrange level they can get involved...and that is my point.

They have different uses in different lists.

Agreed.

The impetus to switch came I believe from the cheaper vehicle options making them more attractive in minimum squad sizes (where they basically get comped a razorback when in the same situation the tacticals would have to be 10 man squads to get a similar and less mobile heavy weapon).

Oh I understand that, but my point is does that make the army better/ more flexibile? So they get comped a transport...big deal. You still have a gun platform that is on AV11, and only 25 marines. Wouldn't a better approach be to go 50/50 split between tacticals and assault squads? Like I said, I can't convince anyone, so lets just wait and see what the coming months bring with list builds based on actual playtesting rather than design lists out of thin air with no practical application in the real world...i.e. on the table top.

Only a non-marine player can appreciate the bolter, to marine players it is just as useless as a lasgun. Captain you are fighting a losing battle, your not going to be able to convince marine players that a newer option is not as good as an old one.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

And clearly you're delusional. How hard is it do gain a save when you need it, but also move your own models into position to take it away from your opponent when required? It's not that hard JHDD.

I play templars, so I think you can figure out how a list goes. Off the top of my head a general list would be: Command squad with/ BP, CCW, FC, Apothecary, SGt with PF, Marshal with 2 LCs mounted in crusader. Crusader squad with BP/ CCW mounted in crusader. Chump with Accept the Challenge. This is my core. Depending on game size, I'll usually have 1-2 more crusader squads. One with all bolters, one with BP/CCW either mounted in rhinos or pods depending on my mood at the time. Season that with various other units in the list and that's pretty much my Templars. More often than not, the crusaders firepower do most of the heavy lifting since my army is predominently focused on CC. However, the bolters are working for me here since I have options to sit at midrange and shoot with my bolter units if I need to. I don't get the fancy fast rhinos...if I did, I'd be putting bolters on more of my guys since moving 18" and jumping out to shoot would be awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CKO wrote:Only a non-marine player can appreciate the bolter, to marine players it is just as useless as a lasgun. Captain you are fighting a losing battle, your not going to be able to convince marine players that a newer option is not as good as an old one.

Of course. I'm not really trying to convince anyone anymore. This is an internet forum and all. We'll see in a few months time which way the proverbial pendulum swings in regards to BA list builds. My bet is the better builds will include tacticals. As for the boring assault marine spam list...my IG say: bring it suckers...LOL.

Nice way of picking a sentence out of context Shummy. That sentence was in reference to the hypothetical application of decent midrange bolter delivery. A bolter is a bolter is a bolter...regardless of source. I'm talking midrange shooting. Tacticals specifically. Something assault squads lack. In the case of C:SM Sternguard can score so qualify. However, I even mentioned later that we just focus the discussion on BA tacticals.

Sternguard do not qualify, they are 35% more costly than the average marine, have twice the attacks in close combat, better leadership average, and have special ammo which changes their bolter profile. They are different in virtually every way.

No, but he should be worried about the other things that a tactical squad can carry...or better yet the fact that I can standoff with this unit at 24" and chip away it's wounds with bolters + heavy weapons. All these examples of "in a vacuum" situations is amusing. I think any sane marine player will know when to use his tactical squads best.

Wasn't this entire argument based on the fact that the assault troops could get heavy weapon packing transports and still cost the same?

They simply have more flexibility than the BP/CCW squads. Trust me, I play an army full of BP/CCW squads. Sometimes your targets of opportunity are limited when your shooting is only a pistol with a range of 12" and your BP/CCW squads can't always win when more shooting is required from your army.

Yes, and I play an army with 40 tactical marines. 170-245 points is a damn poor way to get one heavy weapon and a couple of bolters that likely won't do much over the course of the game.

What about the tact squad with a flamer and a combi-flamer? Sounds to me like more dead orks and marines.

I figured that since the assault squad can get THE SAME ASSAULT WEAPONS that that was a moot point.

pit my tactical squad vs. a 5 man assault squad like that...guess who's in trouble?

In this hypothetical situation I just wouldn't get out of my transport, let you kill it in close combat (maybe), then assault you with the assault marines. Though since, as we've covered, both squads can have the same special weapons, it's a stupid comparison.

Charging them is only asking for a drawn out combat that I may not win. In the same situation how well do you really think a 5 man assault squad is going to fair vs. an ork mob? You can't eat that kind of attrition, son.

As well as a tactical squad will in the same situation. You don't beat an ork mob by throwing minimum sized troops that you need to score at them.

Who's footslogging their BA tacticals? Most marine players I see running tacticals have them mounted in some capacity (in the case of BA, most assuredly you'll see them in rhinos). If the option exists you combat squad, mount 5 and the other 5 camp and shoot heavy weapons. That's where the flexibility comes in. I have options. What options do I truly have with 5 man BP/CCW squads other than move into a position to
assault? With BA tacticals I can do both.

Well since the BA assault squads get their transport nice and cheap they have the same mobility and better firepower, while maintaining the ability to defend themselves in combat.

Well, 2.6 times is better than the other alternative. Additionally with combined fire from say another tactical squad you could effectively kill it before it reached you.

Causing 5.2 wounds on something with a 3+ save means you're probably going to cause maybe 2 wounds, and thats if it doesn't use its psychic power to give you a BS of 1. Why are we doing this comparison, it's not something that would really ever come up (unless you're about to lose).

5 assault marines attacking a swarmlord may never even get a chance to kill it, before he kills the entire squad.

Yeah. We know. It's the swarmlord, it could walk through 30 assault or tactical marines without much issue.

Thus the inherent flexibility you get with the tactical marine. Assault marines are good at one thing...assaulting.

And being more cost effective with their transport (which gives them a mobile heavy weapon) while having more special weapons (better for clearing out entrenched squads) and the ability to assault better (vs having a 200 point unit stand still and fire one heavy weapon a turn). The same bad comparison could be used with vanilla marines and a leman russ (assault marines would be great for popping it in a cost effective manner, and the vanilla tacs would just have their gun bounce off for 6 turns).

Oh I understand that, but my point is does that make the army better/ more flexibile?

Flexibility is great, but tactical marines pay too much for it. They are worse in close combat than orks/kroot/space wolves/chaos marines/assault marines/etc (for nearly 3 times the cost of orks or twice for kroot), worse at shooting than orks/ig/tau (for 3/4/1.6 times the cost respectively). The tactical marines are rugged, but expensive weak and poor at shooting. Theres a reason people are quick to leave them in transports or switch them for other things.

So they get comped a transport...big deal. You still have a gun platform that is on AV11, and only 25 marines.

Vs what? 25 tacticals with 2 heavy weapons and 2 transports? Congradulations, you just cut down your own firepower. 10 tacticals with 1 heavy and 15 assaults? On par with firepower but less mobile with worse firepower.

Like I said, I can't convince anyone, so lets just wait and see what the coming months bring with list builds based on actual playtesting rather than design lists out of thin air with no practical application in the real world...i.e. on the table top.

I suspect the blood angels will spend the bare minimum required on troops just like vanilla marines. At those low low prices the assault troops just happen to be better at it by being more mobile in their comped transports with a better ability to support the force due to more mobile heavy weapon supports and a better ability to take enemy objectives.

5 man assault squad should not have bolters...you need a flamer for them-maybe 2.
How many points is a flamer in a 5 man assault squad? If in isn't 25...then take it...and stop attacking that swarmlord!

The funny thing is I think I may switch to the BA for my space sharks.

LOL. You basically set the example I gave about a page or two ago. Congrats. Your codex chapter somehow sprouts BP/CCWs, cheap access to FNP/ FC. Because somehow your chapter doesn't cut the mustard in this grimdark millenium. Awesome. Is your army at least painted?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

And clearly you're delusional.

How hard is it do gain a save when you need it, but also move your own models into position to take it away from your opponent when required? It's not that hard JHDD.

Excuse me? Did I start calling you names? No? Then don't you start.

In your examples, you dismissed shooting at Tacs saying that they'll have cover, but ignore cover when shooting with your uber Bolters. Be consistent. Or, if your argument hinges on opponents not being able to move their own models in position to take it away when required, then what are you trying to say? That you can beat lower-skill opponents? That's a given.

The point that I'm holding you to is how you said that Bolters can clear enemy 5-man teams, and that AV11 can't save them. That's clearly false, because enemy MEQs in AV11 are going to laugh at your vaunted Bolters all day long.

Looking at the math, to kill 5 SMs (in cover, of course) with Bolters, you'll need 45 shots (30 hit, 15 wound, 5 die). That's more than 2 full Bolter squads double-tapping at close range. If you can get 20 Tacticals within 12" of the enemy, you can get a slightly smaller number of AMs in position to simply wipe the unit in HtH.

Chill out Capt, dont make fun of GW's best customers. We know that you are loyal to the end with your BT and will most likely be rewarded with 2-3 new landraiders, but you cant get mad at people for wanting to play with the newest rules.

However I do agree with you that the DIY excuse is a load of crap.

Man can't you see me? how many points is a flamer on one assault squad?

Maybe it's like 50 I and Don t know...NO bolters...you got pistols+flamer+assault

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The funny thing is I think I may switch to the BA for my space sharks.

LOL. You basically set the example I gave about a page or two ago. Congrats. Your codex chapter somehow sprouts BP/CCWs, cheap access to FNP/ FC. Because somehow your chapter doesn't cut the mustard in this grimdark millenium. Awesome. Is your army at least painted?

Yes, I'm the cheese of the day because I refused to use the overpowered assault terminators that hedge out every other marine army that exists and now might switch to a TACTICAL SQUAD HEAVY BLOOD ANGELS LIST WITH NO FLYING DREADNAUTS OR BAAL PREDS because the veteran assault squad in the C:SM has been replaced by virtually worthless vanguard and the command squads can't take good close combat options.

You're touched in the head. If anything my army will get worse with the change, I'm just doing it because you can't make a functional assault marine army out of C:CSM.



Oh and they're painted grey with some nice highlights. Are your black templars painted black? Because by the sound of it they're painted awfully ultramarine.

@Shuma: Don't feel bad: I'm going to make my "SM" and "CSM" DIY armies into multi-Codex armies once C: BA comes out.

- "grey" SM / CSM / BA with Bolter, BP&CCW, and AM
- "white" BT / CSM / BA based on Mech BP&CCW

As a DIY player, I see no reason to be limited in what I play as - it's my money and my army, and my prerogative to use whatever Codex I desire.

ShumaGorath wrote:You're touched in the head. If anything my army will get worse with the change, I'm just doing it because you can't make a functional assault marine army out of C:CSM.

I dont mean to point you out but this makes my point, about multiple marine codex users being gw's best customers. Every codex creates a mirage that you will be able to do something that the other codexes cant do, which means you will buy the codex and 2-3 units. Only with the new stuff will you be able to make an effective list, something that insults people like cap who is using the old stuff.

@CKO: If you have a core of SM stuff, then you just add a few "signature" units (e.g. SCs, Daemons/Defilers, Death Co/SangGuard) and you're all set to play as another army. Really nice.

The fire! IT BURNZ! Come on guys. Everyone can play whatever no matter how annoying it is because well, as JohnHwang said, it's his money, models, and whatnot.
ANYWHOO
So about them blood angels, do honor guard still get the sanguinary priest upgrade or did I dream that?

CKO wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You're touched in the head. If anything my army will get worse with the change, I'm just doing it because you can't make a functional assault marine army out of C:CSM.

I don't mean to point you out but this makes my point, about multiple marine codex users being gw's best customers. Every codex creates a mirage that you will be able to do something that the other codexes can't do, which means you will buy the codex and 2-3 units. Only with the new stuff will you be able to make an effective list, something that insults people like cap who is using the old stuff.

Er, what? There's no "mirage effect" here. Compare the ability to take ridiculous amounts of Terminators(with better options to boot!) with Space Wolves...to the Deathwing(who are supposed to be y'know...the signature Terminator army), or the upcoming Blood Angels codex, which is looking like you'll be able to field more Assault Squads than a Raven Guard army could shake a stick at.

It's a side effect of Codex Creep and the removal of the Chapter Traits from the standard Codex: Space Marines. Obnoxious? Yeah. But it doesn't automatically mean someone's bandwagoning onto the new army just for the new rules. The 'flavor' of all those standard vanilla Chapters is gone, to where it now is based upon what characters you can successfully use as stand-ins. The same thing goes for Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Imperial Guard. In the effort to streamline and get rid of the more abused builds/traits...they basically gutted the ability of a player to make something truly their own.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@CKO: If you have a core of SM stuff, then you just add a few "signature" units (e.g. SCs, Daemons/Defilers, Death Co/SangGuard) and you're all set to play as another army. Really nice.

Amen. I'm of the camp that more flexibility is a GOOD thing.

CrazyThang wrote:The fire! IT BURNZ! Come on guys. Everyone can play whatever no matter how annoying it is because well, as JohnHwang said, it's his money, models, and whatnot.
ANYWHOO
So about them blood angels, do honor guard still get the sanguinary priest upgrade or did I dream that?

I'm pretty sure Honour Guard still get them, but they're called something else (something like Sanguinary Initiates- it's been a few days since I got to see the Codex). Unfortunately, I didn't see any option for Tech-Adepts, so I'm going to have to change one of my Honour Guard squads D:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

And clearly you're delusional.

How hard is it do gain a save when you need it, but also move your own models into position to take it away from your opponent when required? It's not that hard JHDD.

Excuse me? Did I start calling you names? No? Then don't you start.

Now im going to nitpick, but you started JHDD. Saying someone is using different bolters is implying hes in a different world aka delusional.

You had a nicer tone abotu it, but the same message.

Back to lurking ^^.

I agree 100 percent with Captain K that bolters are awesome. One of SM inherent strengths is the boltgun. When I first started to play hte PDF BA rules I switched from a jump infantry/drop pod list to a mech list. The mech list had two full squads of tactical Marines mounted in rhinos, two Baal predators, an LRC and a LST. The new list was basically a mobile gun line and it could throw out a lot of dakka. The bolters/rapid fire were excellent for flushing units from cover and finishing off small remnant squads (as noted by sourclams). The tactical Marines fulfilled a vital role and were a great core, they really won games in many ways (power fist&plasma pistol/lascannon/plasmagun). I should note I also had one full squad of assault Marines mounted in another rhino. This was back towards the of 4th edition. With the release of 5th edition I made some changes to the list (plasma traded for melta, HQs, etc.).

I have found that assault Marines in general are actually not that great of a close combat unit (even with preferred enemy & furious charge & -1 to enemy WS). They were best used as a shock troop to spring out early causing as much havoc as possible. They will certainly be better now since they can finally take other special weapons beside plasma pistols) but still I wouldn't consider them anywhere near as effective in close combat when compared with a unit like assault terminators. When the Ard Boys rolled around I dropped my squad of assault Marines and started to field an allied troop of Grey Knights in power armor. The Grey Knights were so much better and a lot more effective at both assault and especially shooting. I also added a squad of assault terminators (lightning claws)... I ran them in an LRC with in hte bonus range of Dante & Corbulo (preferred enemy, furious charge & -1 WS to enemy units)... Now that was one hell of a unit!

I am thinking scouts with bolt pistols & combat blades are going to be a better choice over assault Marines if you run them in storm ravens with an IC and can get them into an assault. The scouts are cheaper and will just as hard on the charge, and Blood Angels have ALWAYS been about getting the charge. If your BA assault units are being charged then you are doing something wrong. It's just that simple too.

G

@Voronesh: I was clearly calling out what I believed to be an apples-to-oranges inconsistency, because I didn't believe that he was making a fair apples-to-apples case. I think that's a far cry from name-calling.

When he says that Bolters will easily kill a 5-SM unit, that's just not consistent with my experience in the game. And I don't think it jibes with others' experience either. Nor does it follow from the math averages which underlie those experiences. So if he's saying that Bolters will do it, I think it's fair to suggest that his Bolters are different in some meaningful way that drives a far higher level of effectiveness than what others would expect or experience.

Sternguard do not qualify, they are 35% more costly than the average marine, have twice the attacks in close combat, better leadership average, and have special ammo which changes their bolter profile. They are different in virtually every way.

I already discounted these guys once people stopped making comparisons between BA and C:SM codexes. But in a vanilla marine list they would qualify my point. Quality mid-range shooting via bolters...that can score. Regardless of what you think...ammo or not, the gun is still a bolter. Do 1ksons shooting suddenly not count because their bolters are AP3? It's still a bolter.

Wasn't this entire argument based on the fact that the assault troops could get heavy weapon packing transports and still cost the same?

No. My argument is that spamming 4-5 5man assault squads isn't going to be the Uber OMG build. It simply isn't. At the end of the day, like all marine armies your BA will need some level of midrange shooting, because even though they'll have 5 razorbacks, they still will be out classed by other armies shooting. At some point the extra firepower the tactical squad can provide will prove helpful. I understand that the assault marines are technically cheaper over all, but does it necessarily make it better? I could fill my IG army with small cheap scoring units...does it make it better? There is a drawback to all BP/CCW units. Hopefully, you take something that helps. However, 25 marines is a little light when you think about the rest of that build...all relatively fragile AV11 rides. Rides which can't shoot with minimal effort from the opponent to get them to not shoot. It doesn't take much to shake or stun a razorback.

I figured that since the assault squad can get THE SAME ASSAULT WEAPONS that that was a moot point.

But now you are running into the possibility of shooting yourself out of potential assault range. Why would you risk that? Tacticals don't worry about that because a 12" move + disembark + shoot, they can't charge anyways (next turn they can). Also, taking that assault weapon is going to rob you of the extra attacks for carrying BP/CCWs. Last time I checked Assault marines can't take plasmaguns either. Not that it matters, but again tacticals do have more options of weapon choices.

Well since the BA assault squads get their transport nice and cheap they have the same mobility and better firepower, while maintaining the ability to defend themselves in combat.

5 BP/CCW guys defending themselves in a combat is usually a recipe for disaster. You simply don't throw enough dice to decisively win your combats. Suddenly your scoring units are evaporating quickly. How are 25 assault marines going to stop Battlewagon nob lists? Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything anymore. Go ahead and play your 4-5 man cheap assault squads. In several weeks/ months time I guarantee people will start adding a tactical squad or two to their BA list because they'll realize they'll need them. While were at it, why not take scouts? Cheaper, same number of attacks as assault marines, and can take storms? Yeah, yeah, the Baal Predator I hear you say, well the baal predator is nice, but so is fast moving skimmers that can outflank charge in one turn.

Causing 5.2 wounds on something with a 3+ save means you're probably going to cause maybe 2 wounds, and thats if it doesn't use its psychic power to give you a BS of 1. Why are we doing this comparison, it's not something that would really ever come up (unless you're about to lose).

Range of that power is 12" which means I have 1 full turn to cause as much damage as I could with my tacticals. But enough of the swarmlord example. It's a dumb example and we both know we'd use other guns in our armies to kill it.

Yeah. We know. It's the swarmlord, it could walk through 30 assault or tactical marines without much issue.

Could it? That's a possible 3 missile launchers, 3 melta/plasma/flamer/ combi-weapon+ bolters to eat. It can only kill one unit at time. But again Swarmlord debate is over. It's a dumb example that I didn't even come up with. LOL.

And being more cost effective with their transport (which gives them a mobile heavy weapon) while having more special weapons (better for clearing out entrenched squads)

Since when did hand flamers become awesome? They can take one flamer. Again, their "mobile heavy weapon" can be silenced rather easy.

and the ability to assault better (vs having a 200 point unit stand still and fire one heavy weapon a turn).

Sometimes it may prove beneficial to combat squad. Again, options. If it's to my advantage to keep the squad at 10 great. If it benefits me to combat them, great. Assaulting better is a toss up IMHO. I've played small squads like this with my templars. Now while I don't get access to FC (realistically it's a crapshoot for BA to get it unless you pay close to 50pts to get a SHP to give it to you), I do get to reroll my failed to hit rolls. I've run 5 man squads with BP/CCW with a flamer many times. They simply don't have the oomph to win combats. Maybe vs. weaker toughness units...but then again tacticals (especially if they were lucky to get FC) can do the same amount of damage as well in that case...so it's a wash IMHO.

The same bad comparison could be used with vanilla marines and a leman russ (assault marines would be great for popping it in a cost effective manner, and the vanilla tacs would just have their gun bounce off for 6 turns).

Um ok. How are the assault marines getting there in one piece again?

Flexibility is great, but tactical marines pay too much for it. They are worse in close combat than orks/kroot/space wolves/chaos marines/assault marines/etc (for nearly 3 times the cost of orks or twice for kroot), worse at shooting than orks/ig/tau (for 3/4/1.6 times the cost respectively). The tactical marines are rugged, but expensive weak and poor at shooting. Theres a reason people are quick to leave them in transports or switch them for other things.

Again, I don't know if I agree. All those unit you compared them to have their own weaknesses (weak toughness, poor leadership, etc.) I'm not saying tacticals are the end all be all, but there is definitely a need for them in the BA army in some capacity.

Vs what? 25 tacticals with 2 heavy weapons and 2 transports? Congradulations, you just cut down your own firepower. 10 tacticals with 1 heavy and 15 assaults? On par with firepower but less mobile with worse firepower.

No, more like 2 tactical squads, 3 assault squads. But my comparison is AV11 vehicles and 25 marines vs. Mech guard (actually any decent IG build), Bugs, Vanilla marines, Battlewagon nobs, etc. 25 dudes simply can't stop that kind of possible attrition rate, but I challenge you to try.

I suspect the blood angels will spend the bare minimum required on troops just like vanilla marines. At those low low prices the assault troops just happen to be better at it by being more mobile in their comped transports with a better ability to support the force due to more mobile heavy weapon supports and a better ability to take enemy objectives.

I don't agree, but we'll see. Like I said, in a few weeks time lets see how it plays out on the tables. It reminds me of when people were all over 9 Hive Guard lists....LOL. Now you maybe see one unit of 3 in most lists. Things look good on paper at first, but actual practicality on a table top yields different results.




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Yes, I'm the cheese of the day because I refused to use the overpowered assault terminators that hedge out every other marine army that exists

LOL. Man you really sure place a lot of stock in assault terminators. Newsflash: they are good, but not OMG awesome...and vs. other armies they are also a little slow. BT assault terminators kick their a$$. Some vanilla builds don't even use them. Shocking, I know. There is more in the vanilla codex than assault terminators.

and now might switch to a TACTICAL SQUAD HEAVY BLOOD ANGELS LIST WITH NO FLYING DREADNAUTS OR BAAL PREDS

Who says you can't take tacticals with dreads or preds in a BA army?

because the veteran assault squad in the C:SM has been replaced by virtually worthless vanguard and the command squads can't take good close combat options.

Dunno, I've seen some pretty beefy CC command squads from C:SM...especially on bikes. Vanguard are okay, but require someone to literally build an army around them. Something players may not want to do if there is an easier alternative. It doesn't mean they suck.

You're touched in the head.

Not really. I choose not to focus on one type of unit in a book and obsess over it. I look at what an army can do on the whole.

If anything my army will get worse with the change, I'm just doing it because you can't make a functional assault marine army out of C:CSM.

Last time I checked, space sharks were a codex chapter. Since when did they become a premier assault based army? LOL.

Oh and they're painted grey with some nice highlights. Are your black templars painted black? Because by the sound of it they're painted awfully ultramarine.

Oh, your rage...it sustains me. Actually, if you've been paying attention you will notice I mentioned that my army is almost completely BP/ CCW equipped. A far cry from Ultramarines. I have 6000pts painted how about you?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Sternguard do not qualify, they are 35% more costly than the average marine, have twice the attacks in close combat, better leadership average, and have special ammo which changes their bolter profile. They are different in virtually every way.

I already discounted these guys once people stopped making comparisons between BA and C:SM codexes. But in a vanilla marine list they would qualify my point. Quality mid-range shooting via bolters...that can score. Regardless of what you think...ammo or not, the gun is still a bolter. Do 1ksons shooting suddenly not count because their bolters are AP3? It's still a bolter.

Hang on, I have absolutely no stake in this argument. I don't care if people take Tac Marines or Assault Marines in what will be some sort of fast mech mash list regardless, but trying to "prove" this point is just silly.

Sternguard special ammo is quite clearly beyond the scope of the argument. Not only does it completely change the weapon profile, but Tac squads don't have it. Is it "still a bolter?" as you assert? For the sake of the special rule yes, but it's like comparing the Land Raider to the Rhino. It's "still a transport" but ridiculously more powerful with far more special abilities.

Er, what? There's no "mirage effect" here. Compare the ability to take ridiculous amounts of Terminators(with better options to boot!) with Space Wolves...to the Deathwing(who are supposed to be y'know...the signature Terminator army), or the upcoming Blood Angels codex, which is looking like you'll be able to field more Assault Squads than a Raven Guard army could shake a stick at.

Boohoo. As Justin Timberlake says: cry me a river. Playing your Dark Angels as SW or whatever else flavor comes along because you feel it can't quite "hang" with other codexes is funny. It's basically admitting you could give a crap about an army's background and only like to play with the shiniest new rules. There's more to the game than an exercise of "how uber can I make my marines today?" Should I run out and play my Templars with the BA codex since I have the ability to? No. I chose Templars because of their background, etc. that's why I play them. The rules come second. If they are inferior, I'll play them regardless.

So why hate on people that simply like the "look" of an army and want to try out all the new codices as they're released? For many it's not about POWAR BILDs, it's about changing up the play style. My Chaos Marines have played as Chaos, Vanilla, and Space Wolves; likely new models will make it into the army so it can try Blood Angels as well. It keeps me engaged and into the hobby, as opposed to waving my cane at all the 'flavor of the monthers' while vowing that when my new codex comes out, THEN I"LL SHOW YOU ALL!!!

Capt what is wrong with wanting to use the new units and rules? If they think playing another codex will give them a better chance at winning then they should use it.

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree 100 percent with Captain K that bolters are awesome. One of SM inherent strengths is the boltgun. When I first started to play hte PDF BA rules I switched from a jump infantry/drop pod list to a mech list. The mech list had two full squads of tactical Marines mounted in rhinos, two Baal predators, an LRC and a LST. The new list was basically a mobile gun line and it could throw out a lot of dakka. The bolters/rapid fire were excellent for flushing units from cover and finishing off small remnant squads (as noted by sourclams). The tactical Marines fulfilled a vital role and were a great core, they really won games in many ways (power fist&plasma pistol/lascannon/plasmagun). I should note I also had one full squad of assault Marines mounted in another rhino. This was back towards the of 4th edition. With the release of 5th edition I made some changes to the list (plasma traded for melta, HQs, etc.).

I have found that assault Marines in general are actually not that great of a close combat unit (even with preferred enemy & furious charge & -1 to enemy WS). They were best used as a shock troop to spring out early causing as much havoc as possible. They will certainly be better now since they can finally take other special weapons beside plasma pistols) but still I wouldn't consider them anywhere near as effective in close combat when compared with a unit like assault terminators. When the Ard Boys rolled around I dropped my squad of assault Marines and started to field an allied troop of Grey Knights in power armor. The Grey Knights were so much better and a lot more effective at both assault and especially shooting. I also added a squad of assault terminators (lightning claws)... I ran them in an LRC with in hte bonus range of Dante & Corbulo (preferred enemy, furious charge & -1 WS to enemy units)... Now that was one hell of a unit!

I am thinking scouts with bolt pistols & combat blades are going to be a better choice over assault Marines if you run them in storm ravens with an IC and can get them into an assault. The scouts are cheaper and will just as hard on the charge, and Blood Angels have ALWAYS been about getting the charge. If your BA assault units are being charged then you are doing something wrong. It's just that simple too.

G

Well said sir. I couldn't have said it better. I too agree with your assessment of scouts. Cheaper than assault marines and can still hit like a ton of bricks with the right IC's in tow + good delivery systems. I said it from day one of seeing the BA codex in person. The better builds will see tacticals, scouts, + other stuff as the better builds. None of this "lets take X unit and spam it a million times." But I await actual playtesting on the table tops to show me.

Lets follow up Captain Ks argument regarding the virtues of bolters by considering the new DC armed with bolters and the Relentess USR. First why not arm the DC Marines sporting power fists with a bolter instead of the bolt pistol? Obviously the bolter is the better gun for this specific Marine and I don't think it's necessary to spell out why this is so. Now let's take it one step further and consider arming them all with bolters... 2x S4 attack that hits on a 3+ versus the loss of one attack in close combat. It's hard to say which is better... It's possible the DC might benefit from preferred enemy but often that won't be the case. The tradeoff is one hit at S5 in close combat. The main reason why I am reluctant to say the bolter is better than the bolt pistol is that DC will always suffer from Rage. However rapid firing those bolters just prior to the charge is something very few other units can do.

G

Hang on, I have absolutely no stake in this argument. I don't care if people take Tac Marines or Assault Marines in what will be some sort of fast mech mash list regardless, but trying to "prove" this point is just silly.

Again. I'm not out to prove anything. Believe what you want. I'm done trying to convince people. Find out for yourselves.

Sternguard special ammo is quite clearly beyond the scope of the argument. Not only does it completely change the weapon profile, but Tac squads don't have it.

Again. I've already removed them from the debate table as we are strictly now dealing with comparisons between BA Tacticals and BA assault squads.

Is it "still a bolter?" as you assert? For the sake of the special rule yes, but it's like comparing the Land Raider to the Rhino. It's "still a transport" but ridiculously more powerful with far more special abilities.

Point conceded, but I was thinking more along the lines of the kind of midrange shooting you can get in the various marine armies and how it can be beneficial vs. being locked into a particular troop type that has little flexibility and has one real purpose.

I already discounted these guys once people stopped making comparisons between BA and C:SM codexes. But in a vanilla marine list they would qualify my point. Quality mid-range shooting via bolters...that can score. Regardless of what you think...ammo or not, the gun is still a bolter. Do 1ksons shooting suddenly not count because their bolters are AP3? It's still a bolter.

Yes, and vulcan megabolters are bolters too. Shall we count those?

No. My argument is that spamming 4-5 5man assault squads isn't going to be the Uber OMG build. It simply isn't. At the end of the day, like all marine armies your BA will need some level of midrange shooting, because even though they'll have 5 razorbacks, they still will be out classed by other armies shooting.

I'm pretty sure the BA player is fielding more than just the assault squads alone. Otherwise thats a pretty small game.

But now you are running into the possibility of shooting yourself out of potential assault range. Why would you risk that? Tacticals don't worry about that because a 12" move + disembark + shoot, they can't charge anyways (next turn they can). Also, taking that assault weapon is going to rob you of the extra attacks for carrying BP/CCWs. Last time I checked Assault marines can't take plasmaguns either. Not that it matters, but again tacticals do have more options of weapon choices.

How is the possibility of shooting yourself out of assault range with twice the special weapons any worse than dumping out and shooting yourself into the range you need to be at to get assaulted while having a heavy weapon you payed for sit idle? For more points no less. A second flamer is going to do a hell of a lot more than 6 or 7 extra bolter shots while leaving the same squad more capable of defending itself on the inevitable ensuing charge (it's what makes space wolves the best marines available).

5 BP/CCW guys defending themselves in a combat is usually a recipe for disaster. You simply don't throw enough dice to decisively win your combats. Suddenly your scoring units are evaporating quickly. How are 25 assault marines going to stop Battlewagon nob lists?

Where is the rest of the blood angel army in all these comparisons? Did they just forget to deploy or something?

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything anymore. Go ahead and play your 4-5 man cheap assault squads. In several weeks/ months time I guarantee people will start adding a tactical squad or two to their BA list because they'll realize they'll need them.

Your arguments don't really imply that. Primarily you're just complaining about a lack of bodies on the field. Something switching to tacs doesn't solve. No army worth its salt is worried about the combined bolter fire of a squad and a half of tac marines.

While were at it, why not take scouts? Cheaper, same number of attacks as assault marines, and can take storms?

WS 3 and a 4+ save do not make a good assault unit. I've tried out the storm scout assault unit before. It blows. A five man assault squad with a pred comes in at less points than scouts and the speeder.

Yeah, yeah, the Baal Predator I hear you say, well the baal predator is nice, but so is fast moving skimmers that can outflank charge in one turn.

The storm is great, the scouts its forced to carry are not. They can't beat a single unit in the entire marine codex (short of one already badly damaged or the thunderfire). They do even worse against orks tyranids and chaos.

It's sad too, I really like the concept of the storm. I wish it could hold regular marines.

Since when did hand flamers become awesome? They can take one flamer. Again, their "mobile heavy weapon" can be silenced rather easy.

And the tacs heavy weapon gets silenced every time it has to move (which as your scoring unit it will likely do).

Sometimes it may prove beneficial to combat squad. Again, options. If it's to my advantage to keep the squad at 10 great.

The point of the minimum squading was to maximize the number of free transports (and thus the number of (very) fast moving heavy weapons providing guns while the assault marines hold objectives.

Um ok. How are the assault marines getting there in one piece again?

The fast transport with smoke launchers they have.

Again, I don't know if I agree. All those unit you compared them to have their own weaknesses (weak toughness, poor leadership, etc.) I'm not saying tacticals are the end all be all, but there is definitely a need for them in the BA army in some capacity.

Thats really dependent on the intention of the player. Tacs are a defensive line unit, and an expensive one with poor firepower per point spent at that. Assault marines are just as durable while better capable of receiving assaults and countercharging near the line, all the while being significantly better in a foreward attack use due to the multiple special weapons (more important than the extra attacks in my opinion). Once again though, they're still just a poor mans grey hunters.

No, more like 2 tactical squads, 3 assault squads. But my comparison is AV11 vehicles and 25 marines vs. Mech guard (actually any decent IG build), Bugs, Vanilla marines, Battlewagon nobs, etc. 25 dudes simply can't stop that kind of possible attrition rate, but I challenge you to try.

I'm mystified as to why you think thats all that would be in the blood angel force when its facing such opponents.

I don't agree, but we'll see. Like I said, in a few weeks time lets see how it plays out on the tables. It reminds me of when people were all over 9 Hive Guard lists....LOL. Now you maybe see one unit of 3 in most lists. Things look good on paper at first, but actual practicality on a table top yields different results.

Few people were saying things of that nature.

LOL. Man you really sure place a lot of stock in assault terminators. Newsflash: they are good, but not OMG awesome...and vs. other armies they are also a little slow.

magical. Funny how vulcan/assault terms is the single most popular high end marine list that exists right now. They aren't the end all be all, but they are significantly under priced (to the point where they same unit costs 45 points per model in the BA codex and ~50 in the space wolves).

BT assault terminators kick their a$$.

Cool story.

Some vanilla builds don't even use them. Shocking, I know.

Like the one that I play. In the post that you're quoting. A post that I posted. About the army that I own.

There is more in the vanilla codex than assault terminators.

Not for close combat centric choices. Vanguard are an unplayable joke, assault marines are over expensive and don't have the ability to capture (which significantly hampers their usefulness), command squads have very poor item choices and for some bizzare reason can no longer take terminator armor (which is sad because the terminator assault squad was a classic unit), and honor guard are less effective and more expensive than assault terminators. The space sharks fluff states that they are a linebreaking hard assault army that utilizes a lot of drop pods and assault troops. The vanilla space marine codex just doesn't pull that off very well.

Who says you can't take tacticals with dreads or preds in a BA army?

My wallet, though I do own a heavy bolter ac pred and five dreads.

Dunno, I've seen some pretty beefy CC command squads from C:SM...especially on bikes. Vanguard are okay, but require someone to literally build an army around them. Something players may not want to do if there is an easier alternative. It doesn't mean they suck.

The command squads aren't cost effective with the weapon options. Their price skyrockets quickly, and they are quite vulnerable to firepower/powerfists. They're a great shooting unit, but they just aren't good at assaults.

As for the vanguard, I'm sorry but no. They suck. They cost 12 points more per model than regular assault marines and all they have is one more attack and a nearly useless special ability that requires in the very least a surviving homing beacon to use without seriously endangering the very expensive squad that has it.

Not really. I choose not to focus on one type of unit in a book and obsess over it. I look at what an army can do on the whole.

Actually I was talking more about your poor arguments and insistence on implying im a codex hopping power gamer.

Last time I checked, space sharks were a codex chapter. Since when did they become a premier assault based army?

Last I checked the blood angels were also a codex chapter. Funny how that works.

Oh, your rage...it sustains me. Actually, if you've been paying attention you will notice I mentioned that my army is almost completely BP/ CCW equipped. A far cry from Ultramarines. I have 6000pts painted how about you?

3250.

Anyway, this is a stupid argument and this post was maddeningly long. I'm done... Almost.

Boohoo. As Justin Timberlake says: cry me a river. Playing your Dark Angels as SW or whatever else flavor comes along because you feel it can't quite "hang" with other codexes is funny. It's basically admitting you could give a crap about an army's background and only like to play with the shiniest new rules.

Coming from someone that didn't know blood angels was a codex chapter thats rich. Does your ivory tower have stairs? Or are you stuck up there?

This was a post in the wrong window. :x

I long stopped paying attention to the minutia of this argument, since it seems to be an ad nauseum repetition of the same thing over and over again, but I will say this.

That list posted a few pages ago with all the AV11 razorbacks and 5-man assault squads? Any one of my IG lists would absolutely RAPE that army. Half of it would be gone after one shooting phase, cover or not. The same lists hate tactical squads. Their size makes them tough to wipe out even if I tag them with a couple of demo charges, and those bolters can make a real mess of my infantry lines (yeah yeah, I haven't gone all mech, even though most lists still have 10 vehicles... but if you paid for 120 krieg models, you'd want to use them too.

sourclams wrote:So why hate on people that simply like the "look" of an army and want to try out all the new codices as they're released? For many it's not about POWAR BILDs, it's about changing up the play style. My Chaos Marines have played as Chaos, Vanilla, and Space Wolves; likely new models will make it into the army so it can try Blood Angels as well. It keeps me engaged and into the hobby, as opposed to waving my cane at all the 'flavor of the monthers' while vowing that when my new codex comes out, THEN I"LL SHOW YOU ALL!!!

There's no hate, only mockery. LOL. Believe me, I plan on playing a BA list since I feel this is the best list they've written for them since 2nd edition. However, I'm not going to play it because I want to power build my way to the top tables. I want to play it because it gives me an opportunity to paint a brand new army. I've always liked the armies look. However, I'm not going to use my Templar marines and simply call them BA.


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Black Blow Fly wrote:Lets follow up Captain Ks argument regarding the virtues of bolters by considering the new DC armed with bolters and the Relentess USR. First why not arm the DC Marines sporting power fists with a bolter instead of the bolt pistol? Obviously the bolter is the better gun for this specific Marine and I don't think it's necessary to spell out why this is so. Now let's take it one step further and consider arming them all with bolters... 2x S4 attack that hits on a 3+ versus the loss of one attack in close combat. It's hard to say which is better... It's possible the DC might benefit from preferred enemy but often that won't be the case. The tradeoff is one hit at S5 in close combat. The main reason why I am reluctant to say the bolter is better than the bolt pistol is that DC will always suffer from Rage. However rapid firing those bolters just prior to the charge is something very few other units can do.

G

Yup. I think while DC aren't scoring units, they definitely can add to that midrange punch. There is a tradeoff for having bolters on them, but like you said I think that they can live with it.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

sourclams wrote:So why hate on people that simply like the "look" of an army and want to try out all the new codices as they're released? For many it's not about POWAR BILDs, it's about changing up the play style. My Chaos Marines have played as Chaos, Vanilla, and Space Wolves; likely new models will make it into the army so it can try Blood Angels as well. It keeps me engaged and into the hobby, as opposed to waving my cane at all the 'flavor of the monthers' while vowing that when my new codex comes out, THEN I"LL SHOW YOU ALL!!!

There's no hate, only mockery. LOL. Believe me, I plan on playing a BA list since I feel this is the best list they've written for them since 2nd edition. However, I'm not going to play it because I want to power build my way to the top tables. I want to play it because it gives me an opportunity to paint a brand new army. I've always liked the armies look. However, I'm not going to use my Templar marines and simply call them BA.

Yes, and vulcan megabolters are bolters too. Shall we count those?

LOL. Yes...lets keep adding ridiculous comments to an already tired circular argument... that always works for me.

I'm pretty sure the BA player is fielding more than just the assault squads alone. Otherwise thats a pretty small game.

Well duh! Have you even seen the list posted a few pages back? It's a glass hammer. I'm not the only one in this thread that shares that assessment but since I was the first to mention that it was, I guess I'm the goat, huh? I've seen many incarnations of lists like that and I'm here to tell you that they are a glass hammer. But again, go on believing what you want. That's perfectly fine with me.

How is the possibility of shooting yourself out of assault range with twice the special weapons any worse than dumping out and shooting yourself into the range you need to be at to get assaulted while having a heavy weapon you payed for sit idle? For more points no less. A second flamer is going to do a hell of a lot more than 6 or 7 extra bolter shots while leaving the same squad more capable of defending itself on the inevitable ensuing charge (it's what makes space wolves the best marines available).

Really? Really....I have to explain this? What good does an assault unit do when you are wasting their primary potential? That would be like me just driving around my BT crusader squads all game. Most likely this unit is getting FC. You mean to tell me you are going to waste it? With BA tacticals it's just a nice bonus. Assault marines will live and die by it. Again, I don't quite see how you think a hand flamer is the roxxor. I'd rather have that idle heavy weapon instead. It might actually be useful in the earlier parts of the game when I'm stationary, or farther away. A hand flamer? Completely useless.

Where is the rest of the blood angel army in all these comparisons? Did they just forget to deploy or something?

Go back and reread the rest of the list. It's predators or vindicators depending on which list you look at. Sorry, I'm not jumping up and down for those units. With a side armor 11 it isn't that difficult to get side shots on them that can harm them.

Your arguments don't really imply that.

My argument is simple. BA armies will need some degree of tactical squads in their armies to solve some of their firepower and midrange issues. Period.

Primarily you're just complaining about a lack of bodies on the field. Something switching to tacs doesn't solve. No army worth its salt is worried about the combined bolter fire of a squad and a half of tac marines.

LOL. Are you even looking at the lists? 5 razorbacks and 6 predators + 25 marines? Where's the scary parts? LOL. Switching to a balance of tactical and assault allows your small amount of guys to actually contribute shooting if needed...can get access to FC, so their charges (when they make them) can hurt just as much. Also putting more than 25 guys on the table is a start as well. Most marine armies I play against have at least 35 or more in some cases.

The point of the minimum squading was to maximize the number of free transports (and thus the number of (very) fast moving heavy weapons providing guns while the assault marines hold objectives.

Again, why maximize on something that can be easily silenced? Why maximize on something that gives away KPs easy? Are you seriously thinking this list can actually table an opponent? That seems like the only way they'll be able to win IMHO. Multi objectives will be a pain since spreading out actually hurts this type of army. Again, I sound like a broken record here, but I PLAY an army like this...and more often than not some missions are not going to favor your force selection if you go too heavy in one area. What does this army do in DoW missions? Stay off the entire table? That's risky.

The fast transport with smoke launchers they have.

So you are basically crossing your fingers and praying then? What happens when you cross paths with an IG army that can force you to reroll the smoke save...or as lame as it sounds, the Tau army that can remove it all together? Lastly if you are smokin' you ain't shooting. I'll take that trade off. Smoke doesn't always work and gambling your scoring units like that is fine with me.

Thats really dependent on the intention of the player. Tacs are a defensive line unit, and an expensive one with poor firepower per point spent at that. Assault marines are just as durable while better capable of receiving assaults and countercharging near the line, all the while being significantly better in a foreward attack use due to the multiple special weapons (more important than the extra attacks in my opinion). Once again though, they're still just a poor mans grey hunters.

Tacticals are fine for what they do. While you may think they are over priced, others do not. From a fire power stand point they are okay as well. Assault marines do one thing well and one thing only...and that's giving a charge (and some even think they don't even do that well at that either). Receiving a charge they are no better, or worse than tacticals. Adding more special weapons to the unit actually weakens them since they are now getting less attacks to throw on a charge and truly wasting the FC that they might have.

I'm mystified as to why you think thats all that would be in the blood angel force when its facing such opponents.

Again, I'm only offering commentary on the lists posted by Deadshane. He feels those are killer lists, I and a few others disagree. It's as simple as that.

WS 3 and a 4+ save do not make a good assault unit. I've tried out the storm scout assault unit before. It blows. A five man assault squad with a pred comes in at less points than scouts and the speeder.

For BA? Why not? With the ability to attach a SHP, suddenly they seem pretty damn good to me? Who gives a fig what their WS is when most marine on marine engagements everyone is hitting on 4's anyways? It's the str5 init5 that should concern you. They are swinging first in most cases. Assault marines, scouts...at that point they are both hitting on 4's. What happens afterwards is irrelevant. Either they maul a unit, or get mauled...for an even cheaper investment. Sounds pretty good to me. Speeder Storms are a toss up. However, BBF makes a good point about putting them in a Stormraven.

magical. Funny how vulcan/assault terms is the single most popular high end marine list that exists right now. They aren't the end all be all, but they are significantly under priced (to the point where they same unit costs 45 points per model in the BA codex and ~50 in the space wolves).

Really? That's funny, because I don't see too many of them anymore. They are as predictable as an all drop pod army was in 4th. People have seen it enough times to know how to beat it. I haven't lost to a Vulkan list in months. I've also seen other builds do well in tournaments also. Vulkan isn't the savior for C:SM. Only the true salamander players have stuck with this list. The other bandwagoners have move on from it. Most of those people are playing their marines as SW now...LOL...soon to be Red marines.

Cool story.

All true. I'll take BT assault terminators over vanilla assault terminators all day. Rerolling to hit and wound with my LC attacks and FC? That's a hell of a lot better IMHO. But many don't share my opinion. Oh well.

Like the one that I play. In the post that you're quoting. A post that I posted. About the army that I own.

It shows that you aren't alone in playing a list like that. The difference is those other people can make their lists work without having to switch codexes. Why is that?

Not for close combat centric choices.

Newsflash: It's not suppose to! Codex marines were never assault oriented at all. While they do have some beefy CC units, that isn't the books primary focus.

Vanguard are an unplayable joke, assault marines are over expensive and don't have the ability to capture (which significantly hampers their usefulness),

I'm a firm believer that Vanguard can work. The problem is that it requires over specialization in an army that suffers from doing so. If you over specialize with vanilla marines, you usually are deficient somewhere else. That being said, Vanguard can work with the right kind of supporting cast. While not as points efficient as assault terminators, they are more of a mop up unit rather than a bulldozer unit. Will it magically beat every army out there? No, but then again no army can do that right now anyways.

command squads have very poor item choices and for some bizzare reason can no longer take terminator armor (which is sad because the terminator assault squad was a classic unit),

Dunno about that, the ability to be able to take bikes more than makes up for the loss of not being able to take terminator armor. Most guys in the command squad can take storm shields...which makes them fairly durable. The only real downside is they are vulnerable to things like IG Executioners, etc. but that can be somewhat mitigated.

and honor guard are less effective and more expensive than assault terminators.

Honor guard seem like a choice to take in bigger games. but are still a decent unit.

The space sharks fluff states that they are a linebreaking hard assault army that utilizes a lot of drop pods and assault troops.

Okay, so from a fluff standpoint that tells me that their tacticals would ride in pods, and your fast attack choices would most likely carry 2-3 assault squads. With other stuff to fill in the holes, OR Ironclad dreads in pods followed by a mechanized force to break through the IronClads "line breaking" abilities. There is lots of ways of representing a force like that in the C:SM book. I'm sorry you don't feel that way.

The vanilla space marine codex just doesn't pull that off very well.

Again, I disagree. But I'm sorry you feel that way. To me "line breaking, hard assault force" can mean many things...not just ball busting assault troops.

Actually I was talking more about your poor arguments and insistence on implying im a codex hopping power gamer.

Poor arguments is a matter of opinion. Why make the jump if you claim you are not a person of that ilk? Don't smoke and mirrors your way to claiming otherwise. You are changing books not because you like your chapter and how it runs. You are jumping codexes because you want the biggest, shiniest, marine army you can have. It's no big deal, but at least admit it. Trying to cover it up with "well my army can't fit within the constraints of the C:SM book so I'm switching" is a cop out. I respect you though greatly, because at least your army is fully painted (and probably looks awesome, space sharks color scheme is cool as hell) when you are doing it. Others care even less.

Last I checked the blood angels were also a codex chapter. Funny how that works.

The key word here is were. GW has retcon'd their background completely. I don't remember BA raging in 2nd edition or suddenly having a sh!t ton of assault troops in their codex, do you? As years go by, their chapter looks more and more like a complete divergent chapter to the likes of SW. The Dark Angels codex is inferior to most, but at least they didn't add dumb units that never existed before in the older canon. Some of the new units, characters, deepstriking landraiders from the BA codex is laughable.

3250.

Excellent. That is a lot of points painted. That's quite the accomplishment and commitment of time to finish that. In all seriousness, I salute you sir.

Anyway, this is a stupid argument and this post was maddeningly long. I'm done... Almost.

Agreed. Like I've said about 6 times now, lets see what happens. My gut and experience tells me that lists with assault marine spam in it aren't going to be as good as a list that has diversity in it's troops.

Coming from someone that didn't know blood angels was a codex chapter thats rich. Does your ivory tower have stairs? Or are you stuck up there?

Actually, I've known that for a long time since I played BA at one point back in 2nd edition. But nice try. Nice attempt at an insult as well. I'd retort with something clever, but I'd rather sleep at this point, so I'll refrain.


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Terminus wrote:I long stopped paying attention to the minutia of this argument, since it seems to be an ad nauseum repetition of the same thing over and over again, but I will say this.

That list posted a few pages ago with all the AV11 razorbacks and 5-man assault squads? Any one of my IG lists would absolutely RAPE that army. Half of it would be gone after one shooting phase, cover or not. The same lists hate tactical squads. Their size makes them tough to wipe out even if I tag them with a couple of demo charges, and those bolters can make a real mess of my infantry lines (yeah yeah, I haven't gone all mech, even though most lists still have 10 vehicles... but if you paid for 120 krieg models, you'd want to use them too.

I agree with you. My IG would decimate it as well. Case in point, I faced a similar SOB list like this past weekend. Lots of Immolators, rhinos, etc. about 8 or 9 vehicles I think. After the first shooting phase my opponent lost all but 2 of his AV11 boxes.

C'mon you two, just drop it. You both have in the thousands of posts on here, so it would be pretty silly to see one of you get the boot because a flamewar started over the new BA codex.

If you guys had started the hobby playing BA like I did (because I was poor and the PDF was free) you wouldn't be having this argument. Get over your egos and move on.



Now that is out of the way, we can talk about something more on topic.

This codex looks like it is going to suffer from the same problem that the IG codex did: too many cool combos and not enough points to take them all. I think my list will run a nice balance of LRC with asstermies, couple rhinos with tacs, maybe some assault squads with jetpacks and meltas. Oh yeah, and a sprinkling of sanguinary priests.

LOL. Yes...lets keep adding ridiculous comments to an already tired circular argument... that always works for me.

For someone that doesn't want to convince anyone of anything you seem to love circular logic. I figured I would humor you.

Well duh! Have you even seen the list posted a few pages back? It's a glass hammer. I'm not the only one in this thread that shares that assessment but since I was the first to mention that it was, I guess I'm the goat, huh? I've seen many incarnations of lists like that and I'm here to tell you that they are a glass hammer. But again, go on believing what you want. That's perfectly fine with me.

I think the issue is that all you've said is "It's weak throw in tacticals".

Really? Really....I have to explain this? What good does an assault unit do when you are wasting their primary potential? That would be like me just driving around my BT crusader squads all game. Most likely this unit is getting FC. You mean to tell me you are going to waste it? With BA tacticals it's just a nice bonus. Assault marines will live and die by it.

In the situation assault marines put out more firepower and handle the countercharge better. You're not making any sense. What the hell are you trying to say?

Again, I don't quite see how you think a hand flamer is the roxxor. I'd rather have that idle heavy weapon instead. It might actually be useful in the earlier parts of the game when I'm stationary, or farther away. A hand flamer? Completely useless.

You gave a situation claiming the tacticals superiority. I disputed that. Welcome to the magic of a fluid conversation. Try and keep up chap.

Go back and reread the rest of the list. It's predators or vindicators depending on which list you look at. Sorry, I'm not jumping up and down for those units. With a side armor 11 it isn't that difficult to get side shots on them that can harm them.

It is with the vaunted tacticals heavy weapons though you're right, it's not hard to manage side shots on the. The big ticket for vindicators is their ability to move in blocks, thus negating the side armor issue entirely (chimeras do this too).

My argument is simple.

Actually your arguments been all over the place and wishy washy.

BA armies will need some degree of tactical squads in their armies to solve some of their firepower and midrange issues. Period.

Which makes no sense. The average 7 extra shots you get by double tapping and the 7 shots you get at 24" on occasion are basically just filler. Mathematically they accrue virtually no real interest over the course of most games. It takes 8 bolter shots on average to kill a single marine, thats dreadfully inefective "midrange" firepower. The heavy weapon brings that up but thats long range, not mid, and it's hardly mobile or flexible when it's the primary focus of the unit.

LOL. Are you even looking at the lists? 5 razorbacks and 6 predators + 25 marines? Where's the scary parts? LOL.

The 11 fast tanks with hard hitting heavy weapons? It's a hell of a lot scarier than a horde of tac marines.

Switching to a balance of tactical and assault allows your small amount of guys to actually contribute shooting if needed...can get access to FC, so their charges (when they make them) can hurt just as much. Also putting more than 25 guys on the table is a start as well. Most marine armies I play against have at least 35 or more in some cases.

Adding 10 tacticals reduces the number of razorbacks (thus the number of heavy weapons) for a marginal and statistically meaningless increase in >24 inch firepower. I'm not seeing the big deal with the switch. Every tank fielded has midrange firepower, and the list looks like it could use an assault element. The tacticals would hardly be plugging some kind of giant hole in the list.

Again, why maximize on something that can be easily silenced?

For an early game alpha strike at range? It works for dark eldar.

Why maximize on something that gives away KPs easy? Are you seriously thinking this list can actually table an opponent?

It wouldn't surprise me, it puts out equivalent firepower to an ig gunline and those manage to do so.

That seems like the only way they'll be able to win IMHO.

Actually 25 scoring bodies isn't a bad total for a marine player in the tournament scene. Other than pedro kantor stern lists and the odd tac spam army most seem to field 20-30 on average.

Again, I sound like a broken record here, but I PLAY an army like this...and more often than not some missions are not going to favor your force selection if you go too heavy in one area. What does this army do in DoW missions? Stay off the entire table? That's risky.

I play mixed force and I don't see the big deal with lacking tacticals. I'm consistently underwhelmed by their lackluster abilities in al fields. As for dawn of war, it's not as risky as it seems. If they go second an entire army of fast moving vehicles with heavy weapons is at a tremendous advantage.

So you are basically crossing your fingers and praying then? What happens when you cross paths with an IG army that can force you to reroll the smoke save...or as lame as it sounds, the Tau army that can remove it all together? Lastly if you are smokin' you ain't shooting. I'll take that trade off. Smoke doesn't always work and gambling your scoring units like that is fine with me.

Well we were comparing ridiculous analogies. I went for something similar to the swarmlord idea where one unit can't do anything at all and the other can at least hope to cause damage.

Tacticals are fine for what they do. While you may think they are over priced, others do not.

And I'm sure people still think the world is flat somewhere too. Presence of opinion does not equate to correctness of thought.

From a fire power stand point they are okay as well.

Not for their points cost. Most units in the game put out more firepower for less cost. Not most troops choices, most units. Most anything. They are reaaaaaallllly not cost effective for firepower output. ~200 points for 7 bolters, a special weapon (that wont get used well if theyre using the heavy) and a heavy weapon (that wont get used well if theyre using the special) + whatever the sarge has is a bad price to pay.

Assault marines do one thing well and one thing only...and that's giving a charge (and some even think they don't even do that well at that either). Receiving a charge they are no better, or worse than tacticals.

I'm pretty sure having more attacks makes them receive charges better.

Adding more special weapons to the unit actually weakens them since they are now getting less attacks to throw on a charge and truly wasting the FC that they might have.

And tacs waste the FC any better? Or waste the heavy when using the special any less? Or the other way around?

Again, I'm only offering commentary on the lists posted by Deadshane. He feels those are killer lists, I and a few others disagree. It's as simple as that.

Yeah, but all of your arguments have been treating the assault marines as if they were taking on the enemy alone.

For BA? Why not? With the ability to attach a SHP, suddenly they seem pretty damn good to me? Who gives a fig what their WS is when most marine on marine engagements everyone is hitting on 4's anyways?

Well they just lose against marines. Thats a given. statistically they will not do enough to break a unit likely the marines will hold, and then the scouts will break or die in the following round. The WS is more important against armies like the tau or orks though when the enemy is hitting back on a 3+ it hurts too.

With the khp thats a surprisingly pricy unit with 3 kill points to throw into the enemy as a suicide assault.

Really? That's funny, because I don't see too many of them anymore. They are as predictable as an all drop pod army was in 4th. People have seen it enough times to know how to beat it. I haven't lost to a Vulkan list in months. I've also seen other builds do well in tournaments also. Vulkan isn't the savior for C:SM. Only the true salamander players have stuck with this list. The other bandwagoners have move on from it. Most of those people are playing their marines as SW now...LOL...soon to be Red marines.

Huh. Tournaments around here still feature a few. I guess I don't live in your ivory tower though, so the metagame up there is probably different.

It shows that you aren't alone in playing a list like that. The difference is those other people can make their lists work without having to switch codexes. Why is that?

I think this is where we run into an impasse. I was considering switching armies for fluff purposes because the blood angels (A codex chapter) function more closely to the army I play the Space Sharks (Another codex chapter). I didn't jump on the space wolf bandwagon because they weren't any closer than the halfway I managed to get using shrike and assault marines. I was going to switch to the BA primarily because they actually have veteran assault squads and vanguard units that aren't a joke, they make the army that mine is in the fluff feasible.

However I guess I'm just trying to powergame in your mind.

Newsflash: It's not suppose to! Codex marines were never assault oriented at all. While they do have some beefy CC units, that isn't the books primary focus.

Blood angels are codex marines. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm a firm believer that Vanguard can work. The problem is that it requires over specialization in an army that suffers from doing so. If you over specialize with vanilla marines, you usually are deficient somewhere else. That being said, Vanguard can work with the right kind of supporting cast. While not as points efficient as assault terminators, they are more of a mop up unit rather than a bulldozer unit. Will it magically beat every army out there? No, but then again no army can do that right now anyways.

Yes, they over specialize and become a third of your points very quickly for little durability and useless special abilities. They can be made to work, but that doesn't mean that they don't still suck pretty badly. I'm sure that paraiahs can be made to work too, so can chaos spawn. They still blow. The codexes aren't well balanced and vanguard are pretty terrible by almost universal consensus.

Dunno about that, the ability to be able to take bikes more than makes up for the loss of not being able to take terminator armor. Most guys in the command squad can take storm shields...which makes them fairly durable. The only real downside is they are vulnerable to things like IG Executioners, etc. but that can be somewhat mitigated.

Well that and the units astronomic cost once you give them close combat weapon options. Thats the problem. Its not their effectiveness. It's their effectiveness for how much they cost (Which with stormshields and powerweapons/fists is a hell of a lot).

Honor guard seem like a choice to take in bigger games. but are still a decent unit.

They have a virtually identical statline to assault terminators, but without an inv save. If you give them similar equipment (thunderhammers, lightning claws, storm shields) they actually end up costing more while being the same (except without the inv). They are a decent unit in a vacume (questionably) but they cost too much to only have a single wound with no INV save.

Okay, so from a fluff standpoint that tells me that their tacticals would ride in pods, and your fast attack choices would most likely carry 2-3 assault squads. With other stuff to fill in the holes, OR Ironclad dreads in pods followed by a mechanized force to break through the IronClads "line breaking" abilities. There is lots of ways of representing a force like that in the C:SM book. I'm sorry you don't feel that way.

I have that army. I don't feel it represents them very well due to the inadequacies of the C:SM assault elements. How about you step the feth off and not tell me how exactly a variant chapter with a one paragraph description thats 20 years old is supposed to be played?

Again, I disagree. But I'm sorry you feel that way. To me "line breaking, hard assault force" can mean many things...not just ball busting assault troops.

I'm sure it does. And in the magical fairy lala land where you live I'm sure that opinin holds some weight. Down here in shumatopia It doesn't. Your just being kind of a catty tool about it. But then I suppose you would know better than me. I mean after all, I'm the one thats been playing this army for years. You have a much fresher perspective.

Why make the jump if you claim you are not a person of that ilk?

Because I'm not? Are you intentionally trollish or do you just have very few friends in life?

Don't smoke and mirrors your way to claiming otherwise. You are changing books not because you like your chapter and how it runs. You are jumping codexes because you want the biggest, shiniest, marine army you can have.

Except I'm not. I just want veteran assault squads. I don't care about the librarian dreads. I dont care about furiosos. I don't care about free transports. I don't care about the storm raven. I don't care about feel no pain.

I just want veteran assault squads back. Is that so wrong?

It's no big deal, but at least admit it.

You're a very hard person to like.

Trying to cover it up with "well my army can't fit within the constraints of the C:SM book so I'm switching" is a cop out.

No. It really isn't. I don't play an army that is well represented within the book. They made bizzare choices like removing T command squds and veteran assault troops in the most recent dex. They also removed the trait system that would have better allowed for the army to function as I believe its meant too. The blood angels have at least a little bit of that. Using shrike was the cop out, I'm trying to make the army more legitimate.

The key word here is were. GW has retcon'd their background completely. I don't remember BA raging in 2nd edition or suddenly having a sh!t ton of assault troops in their codex, do you? As years go by, their chapter looks more and more like a complete divergent chapter to the likes of SW. The Dark Angels codex is inferior to most, but at least they didn't add dumb units that never existed before in the older canon. Some of the new units, characters, deepstriking landraiders from the BA codex is laughable.

And I don't remember sternguard or vanguard or thunderfire canons or land raider varients before either. The game changes, they are still considered a codex chapter.




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C'mon you two, just drop it. You both have in the thousands of posts on here, so it would be pretty silly to see one of you get the boot because a flamewar started over the new BA codex.

I've never been banned over semi polite conversation before. Though this thread probably should have been locked a while ago, and I must admit, being called a powergamer for thinking about switching to the BA irked me some. I've been hoping people wouldn't start thinking that since it wasn't my intention and and cap'ns been hitting that hammer hard.