I want pictures :(

This is supposed to get released March, correct?

April. Battle Missions in March.

You get more Death Company when you take Devastators because it's meant to encourage a rounded out army. This is all still secondhand information anyway. I'm still doubting the validity of any of it until there's a codex in my hands, and I encourage you all to do the same.

Worst case scenario, you take 4 dudes with rocket launchers in your army. Oh no, the sky is falling!

Enlighten a non SM player please, why are devastators so undesirable? Whenever I play against 'em they seem to do just fine.

They take up a Heavy Support slot. Which can be better used with taking a LR.

In tournaments they apparently don't have their place.

Like 'ard boyz....2500pts lets you spam 5 LR's with Vulkan. Dev's are also not effective due to them needing to be in a rhino to stay safe from anti-infantry tactics thus limiting the squad to 2 Heavies at a time.

If it wasn't for lash prince armies being able to pull devs out of cover into the open they'd be viable in the cutthroat scene. Thankfully I only play friendly games and the Devs I face are normally HB or ML and they work just fine. Just not "fine enough" to be feared in tournaments. Those slots are better taken by LR's and vindicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Funny how back in 3rd ed and even 4th only a moron took LR's because they died too easy and were generally not worth it.

Now everyone in tournaments spams LR's (though to me the only one worth spamming is LRC or LRR) and no tournament player takes devs.

I wonder if 6th will change that.

Brother SRM wrote:Worst case scenario, you take 4 dudes with rocket launchers in your army. Oh no, the sky is falling!

It's redundant, all Marines come with rocket launchers as standard anyway. At least that's what I heard from the Nid players who can't get over the loss of Eternal Warrior.

Odd. In my gaming group all Marines come with HB's.

Either way, BS4 HBs & MLs just don't cut it! XD

Unless they finally price them right...

Jack

Yeah, I'm just glad my group aren't tournament people so use whatever is fun.

2 ML and/or HB squads annoy me as a Nid and Eldar player.

Fateweaver wrote:Yeah, I'm just glad my group aren't tournament people so use whatever is fun.

2 ML and/or HB squads annoy me as a Nid and Eldar player.

What?! My guardians love HBs!

Guardians are just there to catch bullets so I don't think their opinion counts.

That is totally not what they do >.> (He's on to us! Hide!)

Fateweaver wrote:Yeah, I'm just glad my group aren't tournament people so use whatever is fun.

Ah good. The implication that tournament/playing competitively is mutually exclusive to using fun units.

You're worse than John sometimes Fate, honestly.

Fun units to me are units like Pyrovores or Devastators, Lictors and Ymgarl Stealers. None of those apparently are not or will not be used competitively, hence to me they are obviously "units only used for fun and not because the one using them wants to win".

That's the attitude I get from cutthroats. I'm sure "fun" units for tournament gamers are tervigons, LR spam, Hive guard, 2x primes, 3x trygons because they apparently outperform everything else in their respective slot. Those, to me, aren't "fun" units. A "fun" unit IMO is a unit taken not because it's good or bad but because it's "fun" to take regardless of how well it does.

I played 'Stealer shock in 4th before the bandwagoners jumped from nidzilla to SS in 5th. I'm sure I would have gotten my ass handed to me by a Nidzilla player but to me Nidzilla wasn't fun.

My opponents build lists that would get laughed at on the forums but none of us attend tournaments so what would be considered laughable lists at 'ard boyz or any GT do quite well amongst our circle of non-WAACers.

Just one venue of speculation I thought we should explore:

1. GW wants to make BA the Assault Marine army of 40k.

2. Assault Marines, as described in C:SM, seem to suck.

What can GW do overcome this obstacle? Making them troops is not enough if rhino / razorback spam keeps being more effective.

A. They can add to the assies' (to coin a term) survivability. Maybe that's what the Tantalus is for.

B. They can reduce their points cost. Bit of a no-brainer.

C. They can up their abilities. Army-wide FC will go a long way, but what I'm really hoping for is more attacks. It just seems to be AMs major drawback vs. let's say orks.

D. They can give them more options for nasty weapons. Worked wonders for Grey Hunters. Hints of Melta pistols point in this direction.

What do you think? How will GW avoid pushing an army that relies on subpar units?

What do you think? How will GW avoid pushing an army that relies on subpar units?

You already mentioned the ways but just one won't be enough. They have to lower the points cost significantly and give them more abilities and weapons. I just don't see this happening. Based on these rumours my feeling is BA will be footsloggers arriving via Drop Pods with a bunch of Furiosos or Death Company Dreadnoughts etc.

Fateweaver wrote:Fun units to me are units like Pyrovores or Devastators, Lictors and Ymgarl Stealers. None of those apparently are not or will not be used competitively, hence to me they are obviously "units only used for fun and not because the one using them wants to win".

That's the attitude I get from cutthroats. I'm sure "fun" units for tournament gamers are tervigons, LR spam, Hive guard, 2x primes, 3x trygons because they apparently outperform everything else in their respective slot. Those, to me, aren't "fun" units. A "fun" unit IMO is a unit taken not because it's good or bad but because it's "fun" to take regardless of how well it does.

I played 'Stealer shock in 4th before the bandwagoners jumped from nidzilla to SS in 5th. I'm sure I would have gotten my ass handed to me by a Nidzilla player but to me Nidzilla wasn't fun.

My opponents build lists that would get laughed at on the forums but none of us attend tournaments so what would be considered laughable lists at 'ard boyz or any GT do quite well amongst our circle of non-WAACers.

Oh that's just silliness. A prerequisite of being a "fun" unit is that it can't have competitive value? Trygons are not a "fun" unit? They seem fun to me. Melta Vets in a chimera aren't "fun"? I have fun with them when they pop out to suicide melt a Land Raider full of assault termies. A lash prince forcing a unit of guardsmen to line up like sheep to a slaughter before one of those template dropping noise marine squads tear em up isn't fun? I know my friend enjoys doing it.

Also, what isn't fun about LR spam? 3-4 of those big beauties in a deployment zone is daunting.

As you say, you play stealer shock, and did before it was as competitve as nidzilla. That's awesome, I have always loved the idea of SS army. Is your army suddenly less fun because it can compete in a tournament? Did you rewrite your list in disgust when you realized that your list was functional?

"fun" and "competitive" don't need to be mutually exclusive, and the WAAC style of play comes from the player, not the units or composition he uses. I play these games to have a lot of fun and some laughs, and in the end it isn't a big deal who wins. That doesn't mean I don't try my hardest to outhink and outstrategize my opponent during play. Part of that comes from writing a good list. This doesn't automatically make me WAAC or TFG, that comes down to the individual.

Kveldulv wrote:
What can GW do overcome this obstacle? Making them troops is not enough if rhino / razorback spam keeps being more effective.

A. They can add to the assies' (to coin a term) survivability. Maybe that's what the Tantalus is for.

B. They can reduce their points cost. Bit of a no-brainer.

C. They can up their abilities. Army-wide FC will go a long way, but what I'm really hoping for is more attacks. It just seems to be AMs major drawback vs. let's say orks.

D. They can give them more options for nasty weapons. Worked wonders for Grey Hunters. Hints of Melta pistols point in this direction.

What do you think? How will GW avoid pushing an army that relies on subpar units?

Hopefully all of the above, then they'll be both varied and viable.

Jack

BA AM will have Scoring AM, AM as troops, AM with more options, and wider range of options.

The key is reasonable cost. SM get Tacs & Rhino/Razor/Pod cheap and pay premium for JP. BA should get JPs cheap, and pay premium for OCE Rhino and extra premium for Razor. The Tantalus as a Fast Pred-armored Transport is great to set the top end.

JohnHwangDD wrote:BA AM will have Scoring AM, AM as troops, AM with more options, and wider range of options.

The key is reasonable cost. SM get Tacs & Rhino/Razor/Pod cheap and pay premium for JP. BA should get JPs cheap, and pay premium for OCE Rhino and extra premium for Razor. The Tantalus as a Fast Pred-armored Transport is great to set the top end.

But currently AM's are only 2 pts more a model than Tac Marines in the new SM book. 2 pts./model for jump packs and trading the bolter for a CCW isn't unreasonable,considering the BA AM's will also be considered Troops. I really can't see 15-16 point AM's with Furious Charge as a scoring unit.

But jump pack troops aren't really better then Tactical Marines, since they trade the protection of transports for only slightly greater mobility (since transports also provide that) and pay more. Really they need to come in cheaper for ten men then a ten man squad with rhino, as the rhino also provides a whole extra unit to contest and fight with.

Jack.

Presumably, GW playtested the BA Troops and knows even at +2 pts, SM AM are less good than Tacs.

10 SM are 90 pts for 5 SM base + 16 pts extra SM w/ Tactics + 35 pts for Rhino / Pod = 170 for 10 SM & 35 for Rhino = 205 total..

Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

BA AM could go 5 or 10 cheaper, even still.


Note: I assume BA AM get VS & 2 specials to match the SM "free" guns

JohnHwangDD wrote:Presumably, GW playtested the BA Troops and knows even at +2 pts, SM AM are less good than Tacs.

10 SM are 90 pts for 5 SM base + 16 pts extra SM w/ Tactics + 35 pts for Rhino / Pod = 170 for 10 SM & 35 for Rhino = 205 total..

Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

BA AM could go 5 or 10 cheaper, even still.

If you can get a Tactical Squad with twin-linked MM and flamer (Vulkan) and a Rhino for 205 points, the same price has to be able to buy 10 BA AM (furious charge etc) with one or two special weapons and a power fist.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

BA AM could go 5 or 10 cheaper, even still.

Yeah I'd be pretty happy with ~180 for ten AM including Sergent and two special weapons/power weapons.

Jack

Yup. I'll note the VS & specials above to clarify

Presumably, GW playtested the BA troops...

You mean GW is actually gonna start playtesting!?

Therion wrote:
If you can get a Tactical Squad with twin-linked MM and flamer (Vulkan) and a Rhino for 205 points, the same price has to be able to buy 10 BA AM (furious charge etc) with one or two special weapons and a power fist.

Except you don't get Vulkan for free.

DruidODurham wrote:

Presumably, GW playtested the BA troops...

You mean GW is actually gonna start playtesting!?

Given how flat the 40k balance is, the odds of it being untested pure luck are infinitesmal.

What do you think the chances of an upgrade of two meltapistols being avalible to AMs is? Just like how two plasma pistols are usually an avalible upgrade for AMs. Granted the current BA codex dosen't even give us that option.

I hope Dante is getting some royalties from his melta pistol being mass produced for anyone who wants one!

If Assault Marines at current costs got moved to Troops, they would be balanced-- the fact that the Blood Angel special rules are more favorable to Assault Marines than Tactical Marines only contributes further to this.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Presumably, GW playtested the BA Troops and knows even at +2 pts, SM AM are less good than Tacs.

10 SM are 90 pts for 5 SM base + 16 pts extra SM w/ Tactics + 35 pts for Rhino / Pod = 170 for 10 SM & 35 for Rhino = 205 total..

Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

BA AM could go 5 or 10 cheaper, even still.


Note: I assume BA AM get VS & 2 specials to match the SM "free" guns

However,a Tac squad in a Rhino isn't really anywhere close to as mobile as AM unless you pony up the 15 points for Xtra Armor to keep the low AV 11 from getting stunned every turn. Even then,AM are infinately more mobile because they can completely ignore terrain and other models while they move. Closest you can get with a Rhino is a 5 point dozer blade. Deep Striking via drop pod is obviously better than AM's DS,but that unit is also nowhere near as mobile once it comes out of the DP. AM's in Cityfight are ridiculous,because of their ability to just hop a building or jump up on top of it. If you just take a solitary squad of AM's in a typical SM list,they aren't going to do a whole lot for you,but I've seen several armies built around a heavy contingent of AM's that do well in a casual to competitive environment. The current BA list is reasonably competitive,and they have 22 point AM's without FC,if I remember right. A 4-point discount,plus FC is already a drastic improvement.

I stopped using assault Marines in my BA army during the Ard Boys, they are very expensive pointswise and can only take highly costed plasma pistols as a weapons option. Sure they are a troop choice now but look at all the options Grey Hunters have plus they are much cheaper pointswise. The jump pack in and of itself is no value to me and I ran mine in a rhino for the protection. Right now you are paying a lot of points for a unit that isn't even a good close combat unit. I prefer tactical Marines since they are much more versatile and are a lot better at holding objectives. I am much more excited about the rumors regarding the new Honorguard and Exalted. For assault squads to have any value they need to cost considerably less points and have access to more options.

G

BIG CODEX LEAK over at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=21

*EDIT* The posts were taken down. Still had time to save a copy

Well it's gone now. Wish I got to see it.

Izual wrote:BIG CODEX LEAK over at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=21

And sadly,it's already been deleted. From what I skimmed through,looks like AM's are 19/model,but have the option to take Flamers and meltas(they had this ability in their 3rd ed dex,if I remember right). VS has access to the Infernus pistol,and can also have TH or single LC. 3xmelta AM squads would definately be a nasty tankbusting unit. Heck,even 2 meltas in a 5 man squad is nasty.

Also looks like LeMartes gives the DC rending if he's attached. DC can go up to 10 at 22/model. Get Jump Packs for +10 model if you have AM's. Get Frag/Krak grenades if you have Devy's. Get PW,PF,and I believe TH and single LC for every other model if you have VAS or Honor Guard.

The rumor of 1-3 Dreads per HS slot appears to be false. Furioso's in DP counting as FA appears to be true.

Whatever1 wrote:

Izual wrote:BIG CODEX LEAK over at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=21

And sadly,it's already been deleted. From what I skimmed through,looks like AM's are 19/model,but have the option to take Flamers and meltas(they had this ability in their 3rd ed dex,if I remember right). VS has access to the Infernus pistol,and can also have TH or single LC. 3xmelta AM squads would definately be a nasty tankbusting unit. Heck,even 2 meltas in a 5 man squad is nasty.

Also looks like LeMartes gives the DC rending if he's attached. DC can go up to 10 at 22/model. Get Jump Packs for +10 model if you have AM's. Get Frag/Krak grenades if you have Devy's. Get PW,PF,and I believe TH and single LC for every other model if you have VAS or Honor Guard.

The rumor of 1-3 Dreads per HS slot appears to be false. Furioso's in DP counting as FA appears to be true.

you can only have 2 meltas in a TEN (10) man squad. also why no plasma gun? i know theres a plasma PISTOL but thats just not the same. also storm harbringer is the tantalus, tantalus is the name of the weapon system (2 twin linked assault canns) kinda makes sense as the weapons system is ioneffect out of reach like the food on the tree in tantalus' punishment.

twistinthunder wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Izual wrote:BIG CODEX LEAK over at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=21

And sadly,it's already been deleted. From what I skimmed through,looks like AM's are 19/model,but have the option to take Flamers and meltas(they had this ability in their 3rd ed dex,if I remember right). VS has access to the Infernus pistol,and can also have TH or single LC. 3xmelta AM squads would definately be a nasty tankbusting unit. Heck,even 2 meltas in a 5 man squad is nasty.

Also looks like LeMartes gives the DC rending if he's attached. DC can go up to 10 at 22/model. Get Jump Packs for +10 model if you have AM's. Get Frag/Krak grenades if you have Devy's. Get PW,PF,and I believe TH and single LC for every other model if you have VAS or Honor Guard.

The rumor of 1-3 Dreads per HS slot appears to be false. Furioso's in DP counting as FA appears to be true.

you can only have 2 meltas in a TEN (10) man squad. also why no plasma gun? i know theres a plasma PISTOL but thats just not the same. also storm harbringer is the tantalus, tantalus is the name of the weapon system (2 twin linked assault canns) kinda makes sense as the weapons system is ioneffect out of reach like the food on the tree in tantalus' punishment.

I probably should've clarified a little better. The Infernus pistol is basically suppossed to be a melta-pistol,so in a 5-man you could have a melta and an Infernus on the VS,or 2 meltas and an Infernus in a 10-man unit. No plasma gun option is probably because it goes against the purpose of the unit. You can't rapid-fire and then assault,so it makes sense that all their weapon options are assault weapons.

God damnit. I was just about to repost all that stuff from Warseer over here. It's pretty stupid having a stick up your ass about hypothetical stat lines.

I remember some of the details about the lander. (Pretty much the only part of the codex I'm interested in.)

It's called the Storm Harbinger BS4-FA13-SA11-RA10
140 points, comes with a Tantalus assault canon (the details of which weren't mentioned, but is supposed to be some kind of quad system). Can carry 16 models, 5 bikes or a Dread. Assault Ramp and an "Assault Pack Insertion" special rule. Could choose either a TL Meltagun, TL Plasmagun, or TL Flamer for 10 points, and can take up to 2 HK Missiles for 10 points each.

STORM HARBINGER
Type BS-F-S-R
Storm Harbinger Fast, Skimmer 4-13-11-10
Transport
The Storm Harbinger has a transport capacity of sixten models. Models in Terminator armour, models wearing jump packs and Assault Servitors count as two. It can transport a single Dreadnought. It can carry five Bikes. Attack bikes count as two Bikes.
Fire Points: None.
Access Points: A Storm Harbinger has one access point at the front.
SPECIAL RULES
Deep Strike
Jump Pack Insertion: Assault Squads don't wait for the Storm Harbinger to land in order to disembark. Instead they use their jumps packs to disembark during low-altitude flight and ride on a stream of fire and smoke to crush the enemy in one fierce sweep from above.
Jump infantry disembarking from a Storm Harbinger can launch an assault on the turn they do so, even if the Storm Harbinger has performed a deep strike.
WARGEAR
Tantalus Assault Cannon System:
The Tantalus System consists of no less than four assault cannons. Instead of standard rounds it uses fragmentation rounds that force enemies in cover. Thus they are vulnerable to the assault of the Storm Harbinger's passengers.
It counts as a single weapon with the following profile: Range 18" Strength 6 AP 4 Type Heavy 8, Rending, Pinning, Twin-linked

The entire text is up on Scribd.

EXALT(ed)

BrookM wrote:STORM HARBINGER
Type BS-F-S-R
Storm Harbinger Fast, Skimmer 4-13-11-10
Transport
The Storm Harbinger has a transport capacity of sixten models. Models in Terminator armour, models wearing jump packs and Assault Servitors count as two. It can transport a single Dreadnought. It can carry five Bikes. Attack bikes count as two Bikes.
Fire Points: None.
Access Points: A Storm Harbinger has one access point at the front.
SPECIAL RULES
Deep Strike
Jump Pack Insertion: Assault Squads don't wait for the Storm Harbinger to land in order to disembark. Instead they use their jumps packs to disembark during low-altitude flight and ride on a stream of fire and smoke to crush the enemy in one fierce sweep from above.
Jump infantry disembarking from a Storm Harbinger can launch an assault on the turn they do so, even if the Storm Harbinger has performed a deep strike.
WARGEAR
Tantalus Assault Cannon System:
The Tantalus System consists of no less than four assault cannons. Instead of standard rounds it uses fragmentation rounds that force enemies in cover. Thus they are vulnerable to the assault of the Storm Harbinger's passengers.
It counts as a single weapon with the following profile: Range 18" Strength 6 AP 4 Type Heavy 8, Rending, Pinning, Twin-linked

Nice
Seems it carries almost everything, even bikes....

Shall join the red marines.

It's a little meh. Assault cannon is simply such a poor weapon these days. I guess the lander has a purpose because it allows models to get right into combat after the deep strike. A rules question though: When you deep strike it and roll for scatter, can you pivot the model on the spot again when the final spot is determined? Since it's probably a huge model this might allow the models to get into close combat easier in the usual case of scatter (pivoting the front hatch to face nearby enemies wherever they may be).

EDIT:

After reviewing the leaked data, Seth of the Flesh Tearers seems very useful. He gives the entire army fleet and furious charge. Fleeting after deep striking out of those Storm Harbingers sounds potentially nasty.

1 weapon destroyed result and the lander is gone, leaving you with a glorified flying rhino.
I too have a leaked copy of the codex BA, and overall they are lackluster.

BA rhinos are fast, but if they move over 12" they count as open topped for damage purposes (not assaulting out of), and count immobilized as destroyed.

Mephiston is indeed 285 points and has no invulnerable save, nor eternal warrior.

I read through what may or may not be the legitimate BA leak, and I'm satisfied. Some of the dumber ideas got debunked, some of the better ones got clarified. The reason I think it could have been legit is because nothing was too surprising or terrifying. However, absolutely god awful spelling and grammar make it a little hard to believe at times.

Wow. I hope that leaked codex is the real deal. A few things...

'The Red Thirst' special rule fits the theme of the Blood Angels perfectly. Fail the test, you Rage. If you get over 7, you get Furious Charge. So there is a fine line between the fervor and going berserk. A+

Chaplains and Sanguinary High Priests being able to 'suppress' Rage also fit with the theme of the army. A+

Laurel of thorns wargear giving you 3D6 and discarding one for Red Thirst tests, also fits with the theme. A.

The Baal Predator: basically the normal predator gets the Overcharged Engine as an upgrade at +25 which is very nice. Now you can have your own Baal and not have Assault Cannons. OR have the Assault Cannons and choose something for sponsons other than Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. But the real gem... the Multiple Missile Launcher 'sponson' upgrade, which is basically like a Cyclone Terminator Launcher. Very sweet. A+

Tactical squads not having as many options as the Grey Hunters: C-. You HAVE to have a 10-man squad to get special weapons AND the heavy weapon. Boo.

Death Company requiring you to have other squad types to get upgrades: Come on... Dev Squads to get free Frag/Krak grenades? However... adding the 'mini chaplain' that has 1 wound for 40 points is nice, I suppose. But get this... with 2 Tac Squads, the MAX SIZE of the DC goes up to 15. Consider putting them in a Land Raider OR the Storm Harbinger, right? And the fact that they get their power weapons and fists (as well as claws) back (if you have a Veteran Assault Squad or Terminator Squad) makes me happy. Oh... and Lemartes gives them Rending. Yeah... the ultimate assault squad is back.

I hope it's the real deal. Looks like a very good Codex to represent Pretty Marines if I take the named character that removes Red Thirst.


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Also, yay 9 Dread army!

Like I said, since the book is entirely about assault, Seth really seems like a must take. Death Company sucks even more than predicted since they don't have the rumoured 2+ armour save, but I like the Furioso Dreadnoughts and some jump troopers with fleet, furious charge and a bunch of Storm Harbingers, atleast visually

Therion wrote:It's a little meh. Assault cannon is simply such a poor weapon these days. I guess the lander has a purpose because it allows models to get right into combat after the deep strike. A rules question though: When you deep strike it and roll for scatter, can you pivot the model on the spot again when the final spot is determined? Since it's probably a huge model this might allow the models to get into close combat easier in the usual case of scatter (pivoting the front hatch to face nearby enemies wherever they may be).

EDIT:

After reviewing the leaked data, Seth of the Flesh Tearers seems very useful. He gives the entire army fleet and furious charge. Fleeting after deep striking out of those Storm Harbingers sounds potentially nasty.

The Rulebook FAQ states that models with Fleet can't assault out of a moving transport. However... the Jump Infantry that *can* assault out of the Storm Harbinger can fleet and still assault with Seth as their leader. Oooo... question at hand: Would you rather have a 16-man DC in a LRC -or- 8-man DC with jump packs in a Storm Harbinger? Or option C... 16-man DC in a Harbinger... Bah, so many options!

Well, I guess 8 jump packers in a Storm Harbinger because it gives you the option of just deep striking, disembarking 2" out of a very long model, fleeting D6" and assaulting 6" and taking out all of the nasty Long Fang squads before they get to fire at anything.

Meph is 20pts cheaper than your quote and has FNP, Eternal Warrior and is Fearless.

T5, FNP, EW plus some of his powers will make him a tough nut to crack just by trying to punch him.

That is correct, I skimmed over it too fast. In any case he has no invulnerable save and will die like a punk to everything with power weapons or AP.

Since it got ganked by warseer its probably the real deal

When I posted the real WD codex months before it was released it got taken down pretty fast but rumors stayed up :p and wow Corbulo just became the dante+corbulo combo all on his own lol

That'd be a lot of work to go through for a hoax. It's also not April 1st yet so we can assume it's no April Fools Joke.

Some of the rules/stats jive with some of the rumors from credible sources.

I've got some SH terminators sitting here just waiting for paint.

Whatever1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

Note: I assume BA AM get VS & 2 specials to match the SM "free" guns

However,a Tac squad in a Rhino isn't really anywhere close to as mobile

JP = 12" move, Rhino = 12" move; FC trades for Tactics, and AM lose models instead of being Stunned. If JPs really are "better", why is the best current BA build AM in Rhino?
____

Whatever1 wrote:looks like AM's are 19/model,but have the option to take Flamers and meltas; VS has access to the Melta pistol,and can also have TH or single LC.

LeMartes gives the DC rending. DC can go up to 10 at 22/model. Get Jump Packs for +10 model if you have AM's. Get Frag/Krak grenades if you have Devy's. Get PW,PF,and I believe TH and single LC for every other model if you have VAS or Honor Guard.

190 pts for 10 AM is what I guessed above, assuming Special weapons are built in.

Lemartes and DC look very fair, but want to see the rules, as 22 pt DC isn't like previous rumor. Probably competing playtest Codices. Still, looks like GW is definitely big on tying units together.

____

Commander Endova wrote:It's pretty stupid having a stick up your ass about hypothetical stat lines.

Storm Harbinger
BS4-FA13-SA11-RA10 - 140 points,
Tantalus assault canon. Can carry 16 models, 5 bikes or a Dread. Assault Ramp and an "Assault Pack Insertion" special rule. Choose TL Melta / TL Plasma / TL Flamer for +10 points; take up to 2 HK Missiles for +10 points each.

It's Warseer...

Storm Harbinger is pricey, but it's also Transporting a larger, better payload. I can't wait to see this model, tho I wonder what it'll cost. I'm guessing Valk prices.
____

BrookM wrote:Assault Servitors count as two.

The Tantalus System consists of no less than four assault cannons. Instead of standard rounds it uses fragmentation rounds that force enemies in cover. Thus they are vulnerable to the assault of the Storm Harbinger's passengers.
R18" S6 AP4 Heavy 8, Rending, Pinning, Twin-linked

"Assault Servitors"??? cheap walking PFs? More info please!

Tantalus averages 7 S6 AP4 Rending hits? That's not bad at all.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try 100 pts base for 5 BA AM + 18 pts extra BA AM, with FC & Scoring for "FREE" = 190 total.

Note: I assume BA AM get VS & 2 specials to match the SM "free" guns

However,a Tac squad in a Rhino isn't really anywhere close to as mobile

JP = 12" move, Rhino = 12" move; FC trades for Tactics, and AM lose models instead of being Stunned. If JPs really are "better", why is the best current BA build AM in Rhino?
____

Whatever1 wrote:looks like AM's are 19/model,but have the option to take Flamers and meltas; VS has access to the Melta pistol,and can also have TH or single LC.

LeMartes gives the DC rending. DC can go up to 10 at 22/model. Get Jump Packs for +10 model if you have AM's. Get Frag/Krak grenades if you have Devy's. Get PW,PF,and I believe TH and single LC for every other model if you have VAS or Honor Guard.

190 pts for 10 AM is what I guessed above, assuming Special weapons are built in.

105 for 4 Marines and Sargeant. 19/per up to 5 more. 1 per 5 can be given a Flamer, Plasma Pistol or Meltagun at current prices. Sarge can replace bolt pistol/cc weapon with TH,SS, single LC, PW, PF, Infernus Pistol. Sarge can be given Meltabombs and/or Laurel of Thorns (for a cost).

DC: Power Armour, Chainsword/Combat Blade, Bolt Pistol, Crozius (Aspirant only).

Rules: FC, FNP, Black Rage (DC only); Paragon of Restraint (Aspirant only).

May select Rhino, Drop Pod or Harbinger as a Dedicated Transport.

May purchase an Aspirant for the cost of one Terminator.

If the army contains at least 2 Tactical squads you may purchase UP TO 10 more DC (for a total of 15) for the current cost of a PF -3pts.

If the army contains at least 1 Assault Squad you may purchase jump packs for the cost of one current meltagun per Marine.

If the army contains at least 1 Devastator Squad the DC get Frag and Krak for free. ANY member may purchase Meltabombs for the cost of what Vet. Sarges pay for them.

If the army contains at least 1 VAS, Terminator Squad or Terminator Assault Squad UP TO HALF the DC may purchase a single LC for (plasmagun cost) per model, power weapon at (plasmagun cost) per model or powerfist (at current cost for everyone else) per model.

The Aspirant is a Chaplain-Lite. Same stats as a Vet Sarge but with the ability to keep the DC in check.

____

Commander Endova wrote:It's pretty stupid having a stick up your ass about hypothetical stat lines.

Storm Harbinger
BS4-FA13-SA11-RA10 - 140 points,
Tantalus assault canon. Can carry 16 models, 5 bikes or a Dread. Assault Ramp and an "Assault Pack Insertion" special rule. Choose TL Melta / TL Plasma / TL Flamer for +10 points; take up to 2 HK Missiles for +10 points each.

It's Warseer...

Storm Harbinger is pricey, but it's also Transporting a larger, better payload. I can't wait to see this model, tho I wonder what it'll cost. I'm guessing Valk prices.
____

BrookM wrote:Assault Servitors count as two.

The Tantalus System consists of no less than four assault cannons. Instead of standard rounds it uses fragmentation rounds that force enemies in cover. Thus they are vulnerable to the assault of the Storm Harbinger's passengers.
R18" S6 AP4 Heavy 8, Rending, Pinning, Twin-linked

"Assault Servitors"??? cheap walking PFs? More info please!

Assault Servitor is 0-1 per Servitor squad (BA Servitors are similiar to Vanilla Servitors). Assault Servitor has Thunderhammer and Artificer Cannon (36" S6 AP6 Assault6) but it is BS1. Assault Servitor has FNP along with T5, 3 wounds and 3A base.

Lemartes, 15 DC, Jump Packs and 7 power fists - over 800 points.. might be worth it

blood angel wrote:Lemartes, 15 DC, Jump Packs and 7 power fists - over 800 points.. might be worth it

No there is no need for that many power fists in any army. Especially in 2 squads

Emrab wrote:

blood angel wrote:Lemartes, 15 DC, Jump Packs and 7 power fists - over 800 points.. might be worth it

No there is no need for that many power fists in any army. Especially in 2 squads

Anything that can survive more than two powerfists in an assault is pretty scary.

Emrab wrote:

blood angel wrote:Lemartes, 15 DC, Jump Packs and 7 power fists - over 800 points.. might be worth it

No there is no need for that many power fists in any army. Especially in 2 squads

3 Carnifexes?

7 PF = 21A = 14hit = 12W...

Ditch the power fists and jump packs and throw in mephiston.. That way you get cavalry and you ignore terrain for the entire unit and save all those points on jump packs!

Sure you lose rending but you wont need it for 22pts a model.. Can still take an aspirant to ignore rage

Too true. I was just 'wishlisting'

I think taking Meph with them is going to be bad ass too. Then you can fit all 16 of them in the lander if you wish, heh.

The reference to living darkness 'removing models from play' seems to be pretty interesting too.

140 points for a super fast baal pred w/TL melta that can drop PFs into combat from space (read: without them getting shot up). Uh.... what the hell?

Also: Breaking news! GW sets Baltimore up to claim 'City of Leaks' title!

Slackermagee wrote:140 points for a super fast baal pred w/TL melta that can drop PFs into combat from space (read: without them getting shot up). Uh.... what the hell?

Also: Breaking news! GW sets Baltimore up to claim 'City of Leaks' title!

You can also only take a max of 8 JP Marines. Thats if you want to assault. Otherwise reg Marines just hop out and shoot. Smart players will have screening units or use some ability to negate the buffs from that. Not to mention it gets expensive. That unit will cost more than a Landraider and has no hope of any cheesy destruction.

For cheap and nasty 130 pts gets a 3++ creature with 4 wounds that sucks wounds from other squads when it lands and sucks more wounds in the opponents phase. Oh and he can shoot a Ordnance AP 1 blast. Much worse if you ask me then a flimsy dropship with not alot of precious cargo.

However I am getting ahead of myself. Some people may just take 5 of them and throw their tacticals and assault squads in them.

I for one will be fielding Seth. He is too good to pass up.

Dante, Meph, a couple of tac squads in rhinos, honor guard, maxed out DC.... crap.. i'm out of points

I really like the Storm Harbinger, Assault Marine, Death Company, Seth (Flesh Tearers) concept. I was so excited over the IG's version of Air Assault. This takes it to an all time high new level.

Wow.

Can I build 2 Marine armies in one year? Wonder what the wife will think about that?

What I don't get is why tac marines are 5 points cheaper, and why anyone will ever buy a plasma pistol again. When a plasma pistol and a melta pistol are the exact same price, why would you ever NOT buy the one with 1 higher strength, the melta rule, and a 0% chance of it exploding in your face? Overall I like what I'm seeing though.

If GW releases Flesh Tearers shoulderpads and an appropriately awesome Seth model, I'll be tempted to start YET ANOTHER Marine army.

Brother SRM wrote:What I don't get is why tac marines are 5 points cheaper, and why anyone will ever buy a plasma pistol again. When a plasma pistol and a melta pistol are the exact same price, why would you ever NOT buy the one with 1 higher strength, the melta rule, and a 0% chance of it exploding in your face? Overall I like what I'm seeing though.

If GW releases Flesh Tearers shoulderpads and an appropriately awesome Seth model, I'll be tempted to start YET ANOTHER Marine army.

6 inch extra range on the plasma pistol?

But yeah, for the same point cost, why ever take plasma?

Also, why do AM have PW and LC at the same cost, for that matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In any case, if these rumors turn out to even be mostly true ( and they sound perfectly fine to me) I as a necron player am absolutely screwed. Being assaulted out of Deep Strike is going to absolutely destroy me.

At this point Flesh Tearers may be bigger than any marine army because of all the USR he confers to the army. I mean Fleet and Furious Charge? Yessir gimme gimme!

I like infernus pistols for that extra oomph when taking on AV 14 guys when you know that you are going to assault it anyways. I mean if you can shoot it down instead why not then taking three PF whacks at it.

Overall I will be making a Flesh Tearers style force if not an entire army because of how cool Seth sounds and the fact that him with a Sanguinary High Priest is one of the nastiest combos since Dante and Corbulo.

PW/LC fill diff. roles that's why?

PW can be combined with cc weapon for +1 attack, LC can't but the LC lets you reroll wounds.

So +1 attack or reroll wounds? Not really a no brainer choice IMO.

Fateweaver wrote:PW can be combined with cc weapon for +1 attack, LC can't but the LC lets you reroll wounds.

So +1 attack or reroll wounds? Not really a no brainer choice IMO.

Numbers-wise, virtually identical results. LC slightly better for T5-T7; PW slightly better for T3.

Fateweaver wrote:PW/LC fill diff. roles that's why?

PW can be combined with cc weapon for +1 attack, LC can't but the LC lets you reroll wounds.

So +1 attack or reroll wounds? Not really a no brainer choice IMO.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Alright, I'd like to draw this to everyone's attention if it hasn't been already.

The librarian gets a large blast vortex grenade each turn with no scatter (in addition to doing something useless with line of sight... ). Did I read that right? Do blood angels seriously get the ability to drop pod two librarians and vape large segments of your army on a roll of 10 or less on 2d6?

Also, these guys sound a lot more like the 'Jesus Marines' now. Someone out in Baltimore get Born Again?

Slackermagee wrote:Alright, I'd like to draw this to everyone's attention if it hasn't been already.

The librarian gets a large blast vortex grenade each turn with no scatter (in addition to doing something useless with line of sight... ). Did I read that right? Do blood angels seriously get the ability to drop pod two librarians and vape large segments of your army on a roll of 10 or less on 2d6?

Yeah that's striking me as odd, unless there is a missing line about not being able to place it on enemy models or something (so they only die if something forces them into it, rather like the Mawloc's special ability).

Slackermagee wrote:Also, these guys sound a lot more like the 'Jesus Marines' now. Someone out in Baltimore get Born Again?

Eh, they're a blood cult with a focus on inspired martyrdom, that's always gonna have some similarities with the more ritualistic aspects of Christianity, most of this dates back to their old Angels of Death write up though (grail, blood rituals, martyrs, etc...). If anything the new stuff has moved away from the obvious new testament allegories.

Jack

Well, one of the main elements of BA design is the Italian Renaissance period. The church still had a great deal of control during the period, so I don;t think it's unreasonable that a few Christian themes snuck in.

Commander Endova wrote:Well, one of the main elements of BA design is the Italian Renaissance period. The church still had a great deal of control during the period, so I don;t think it's unreasonable that a few Christian themes snuck in.

Actually it's more the Baroque period. More ostentatious with religious high iconography and refined than the Renaissance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque

I stand corrected! Never was much a scholar of the arts...

Slackermagee wrote:Alright, I'd like to draw this to everyone's attention if it hasn't been already.

The librarian gets a large blast vortex grenade each turn with no scatter (in addition to doing something useless with line of sight... ). Did I read that right? Do blood angels seriously get the ability to drop pod two librarians and vape large segments of your army on a roll of 10 or less on 2d6?

Also, these guys sound a lot more like the 'Jesus Marines' now. Someone out in Baltimore get Born Again?

i think it means the marker for the power gets removed if its placed over a model or a model moves into it. We will have to wait for the final wording on the actual book to be sure.

I'm currently pondering a predator with an autocannon and a cyclone missile launcher for 100 points and how that might end up being pretty good.

Khornatedemon wrote:
i think it means the marker for the power gets removed if its placed over a model or a model moves into it. We will have to wait for the final wording on the actual book to be sure.

On more careful reading I think you have the right of it (and it certainly makes more sense game wise), although it wrecks my clever plan of plopping it on top of my own land Raider each turn :(

Khornatedemon wrote:I'm currently pondering a predator with an autocannon and a cyclone missile launcher for 100 points and how that might end up being pretty good.

Nice, its certainly a different type of tank then we've seen before, and with OCE it could move 12 and fire all guns (in anti infantry mode with frag missiles) which might be worth it as well.

Jack

Nice to see the Shroud of Sanguinius making a return.

Does anybody see any use for a dirt-cheap devastator squad of five with grenade launchers?

Yeah, I do.
For giving Death Company Frag/Krak!

Nice to see Flesh Tearers getting included, but another fleet of foot Space Marine chapter?! There really ought to be a trade off for that kind of thing.

EXALTED SQUAD Around 150 Points
-Guardian of the Tower (one wound semi-commander stats)
-Exalted (veteran marine stats)
Unit Composition: 4 Exalted, 1 Guardian of the Tower
Unit Type: Jump Infantry
Wargear: Power armour, Stormbolter, Power weapon, Frag grenades, Krak grenades,
Jump packs
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Hit & Run, Paragon of Restraint
Options: •The squad may include up to five additional Exalted for +30 pts per model

From the leaked PDF. Edited to restrict info.
They don't suffer from Blood Rage, and as such don't get benefits or drawbacks.
Seemingly the only way to give them Furious Charge is to get them close to a figure with Exsanguinator (not impossible but requires either an Honor Guard of High Priest).
Thoughts on these guys? Decent or just as overpriced as Vanguard?

Flashman wrote:Nice to see Flesh Tearers getting included, but another fleet of foot Space Marine chapter?! There really ought to be a trade off for that kind of thing.

You mean besides Fleet being packaged together with the most tactically crippling USR in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lurker wrote:
From the leaked PDF. Edited to restrict info.
They don't suffer from Blood Rage, and as such don't get benefits or drawbacks.
Seemingly the only way to give them Furious Charge is to get them close to a figure with Exsanguinator (not impossible but requires either an Honor Guard of High Priest).
Thoughts on these guys? Decent or just as overpriced as Vanguard?

They cost ~15 pts less per model than any comparable SM unit anywhere ever.

Lurker wrote:

EXALTED SQUAD Around 150 Points
-Guardian of the Tower (one wound semi-commander stats)
-Exalted (veteran marine stats)
Unit Composition: 4 Exalted, 1 Guardian of the Tower
Unit Type: Jump Infantry
Wargear: Power armour, Stormbolter, Power weapon, Frag grenades, Krak grenades,
Jump packs
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Hit & Run, Paragon of Restraint
Options: •The squad may include up to five additional Exalted for +30 pts per model

From the leaked PDF. Edited to restrict info.
They don't suffer from Blood Rage, and as such don't get benefits or drawbacks.
Seemingly the only way to give them Furious Charge is to get them close to a figure with Exsanguinator (not impossible but requires either an Honor Guard of High Priest).
Thoughts on these guys? Decent or just as overpriced as Vanguard?

The way I read it is that they're immune to Rage, not Red Thirst. They still need to do the Red Thirst test, and can still get FC... They just don't Rage if they fail leadership.

Edit: Just noticed that Red Thirst isn't listed in the Special Rules for Exalted... but I'm guessing it's an omission since Paragon of Restraint is meaningless without the Red Thirst.

I really liking this book. Granted it's still possible that the leaked PDF was a fake, but if it is real I'm sold on it.
I couldn't help but notice that if you take Lemartes, you could potentially feild 4 squads of Death Co, and that per each techmarine taken a Land Raider becomes a deticated transport for a tatical squad. Librarian Dread being an HQ choice was a bit of a suprise, and it appears that Brother Corbulo is completely gone or is just a generic Sanguinary High Priest how. Either way, I see alot of builds I would try in the book. Now I want to see what the new models will look like.

ubermosher wrote:

Lurker wrote:

EXALTED SQUAD Around 150 Points
-Guardian of the Tower (one wound semi-commander stats)
-Exalted (veteran marine stats)
Unit Composition: 4 Exalted, 1 Guardian of the Tower
Unit Type: Jump Infantry
Wargear: Power armour, Stormbolter, Power weapon, Frag grenades, Krak grenades,
Jump packs
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Hit & Run, Paragon of Restraint
Options: •The squad may include up to five additional Exalted for +30 pts per model

From the leaked PDF. Edited to restrict info.
They don't suffer from Blood Rage, and as such don't get benefits or drawbacks.
Seemingly the only way to give them Furious Charge is to get them close to a figure with Exsanguinator (not impossible but requires either an Honor Guard of High Priest).
Thoughts on these guys? Decent or just as overpriced as Vanguard?

The way I read it is that they're immune to Rage, not Red Thirst. They still need to do the Red Thirst test, and can still get FC... They just don't Rage if they fail leadership.

Edit: Just noticed that Red Thirst isn't listed in the Special Rules for Exalted... but I'm guessing it's an omission since Paragon of Restraint is meaningless without the Red Thirst.

Paragon of Restraint is for the models within 12" of the Exalted Squad.

@LORD_BLACKFANG
The fact remains that EXALTED are 30pts a pop. Vanguard are 35pts(?) with a power weapon and while they don't come with a Storm Bolter (or H&R) they do come with +1 attack because of this.
I'm not trying to advocate Vanguard, just that despite looking good I don't think Exalted are that different to Vanguard and that makes me wary (unless the 'Paragon Effect' becomes important....).
I guess I could word it better and ask if these guys would be taken over Death Company and Veteran Assault Marines?


@MRSAKO
Nice find. I was about to suggest the same thing.


On the subject of SETH and Flesh Tearers
Does the disadvantage of RAGE outweigh the Fleet and Furious Charge?
Particularly when you can include units* with a Paragon of Restraint** to help you avoid the RAGE USR.
Opinions?


*Units include Death Company Upgrade, Chaplain, Exalted, High Priest, Honour Guard Upgrade
*If a unit is in 6" of a model with the Paragon of Restraint special rule at the start of the
movement phase it ignores all effects of the Rage special rule for the remainder of the
turn.

Did anyone else notice how Assault Terminators changed? +10 points per guy to upgrade from the default lightning claws to the ubiquitous Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield combo.

I like the change as combined with the high possibility of Furious Charge it might be enough of a nudge to get some people to dust off their Old Lightning Claw terminators.


Also, what are people thinking about the idea of using the Storm Harbinger as a transport for terminators? It seems to lack the assault ramp that Landraiders offer but it is a Fast Skimmer for a little over half the cost.

Lurker wrote:@LORD_BLACKFANG
The fact remains that EXALTED are 30pts a pop. Vanguard are 35pts(?) with a power weapon

And without a jump pack.

Yes, vanguard suck we know :p Exalted look pretty sweet.. Take seth and a unit of them so your units can ignore rage

THe reason, IMO, that th/ss terms are 50pts is cause GW wants codex: marines to have ONE decent thing left in the book

Kirasu wrote:THe reason, IMO, that th/ss terms are 50pts is cause GW wants codex: marines to have ONE decent thing left in the book

Or they think they're undercosted, and will update the next Codex: Space Marines next edition?

Yeah, Exhalted look pretty damn good (provided they can get FC, that much is unclear. I'd love to toss 8 of those guys in a Storm Harbinger.

They make DC look pretty weak by comparison though. I'm kind of disappointed that they're so expensive with jump packs but without PWs. Not a unit I want to be paying close to 50 per.

Furiosos and Librarians look absolutely great though, I wasn't expecting so many attacks. I'm definitely gonna pick up some metal ones while I still can.

Brother SRM wrote:What I don't get is why tac marines are 5 points cheaper, and why anyone will ever buy a plasma pistol again. When a plasma pistol and a melta pistol are the exact same price, why would you ever NOT buy the one with 1 higher strength, the melta rule, and a 0% chance of it exploding in your face? Overall I like what I'm seeing though.

BA Tactical Marines are 5 points cheaper because they are worse than Codex Tactical Marines. Red Thirst is a disadvantageous rule for Tacs, and it replaces the excellent Combat Tactics.

ubermosher wrote:Edit: Just noticed that Red Thirst isn't listed in the Special Rules for Exalted... but I'm guessing it's an omission since Paragon of Restraint is meaningless without the Red Thirst.

Paragon of Restraint helps units around you.

It doesnt seem like they could get furious charge because they dont have the red thirst. However, there are ways of getting it

Either way, 30 pts for a stormbolter, PW and jump pack is pretty good!

Kirasu wrote:It doesnt seem like they could get furious charge because they dont have the red thirst. However, there are ways of getting it

Either way, 30 pts for a stormbolter, PW and jump pack is pretty good!

Yeah, but it's precisely that which I'm worried about. As is DC is stupidly overcosted. FNP will help for a little bit on the way in, but once you're actually in CC you're going to be getting chewed up by PWs that ignore FNP anyway. I'll be using my Exalted to engage dedicated CC units with buttloads of PWs.

Hell, I thought Rending was pretty terrible, but I might just take 15 of them, toss them into a LRC with Lemartes rather than pay so much for PWs.

Ostrakon wrote:

Kirasu wrote:It doesnt seem like they could get furious charge because they dont have the red thirst. However, there are ways of getting it

Either way, 30 pts for a stormbolter, PW and jump pack is pretty good!

Yeah, but it's precisely that which I'm worried about. As is DC is stupidly overcosted. FNP will help for a little bit on the way in, but once you're actually in CC you're going to be getting chewed up by PWs that ignore FNP anyway. I'll be using my Exalted to engage dedicated CC units with buttloads of PWs.

Hell, I thought Rending was pretty terrible, but I might just take 15 of them, toss them into a LRC with Lemartes rather than pay so much for PWs.

Does LeMartes Lose his Jump pack?

No.

jbunny wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Kirasu wrote:It doesnt seem like they could get furious charge because they dont have the red thirst. However, there are ways of getting it

Either way, 30 pts for a stormbolter, PW and jump pack is pretty good!

Yeah, but it's precisely that which I'm worried about. As is DC is stupidly overcosted. FNP will help for a little bit on the way in, but once you're actually in CC you're going to be getting chewed up by PWs that ignore FNP anyway. I'll be using my Exalted to engage dedicated CC units with buttloads of PWs.

Hell, I thought Rending was pretty terrible, but I might just take 15 of them, toss them into a LRC with Lemartes rather than pay so much for PWs.

Does LeMartes Lose his Jump pack?

Crap, I don't have the "rumors" in front of me but now that you mention it, I don't know. I'm guessing 'no'.

I only ask cause you mentioned putting him in a LRC.

Yeah, the DC are expensive, but I'm surprised that no one so far has mentioned that if you're running Tycho as the Martyr of Tempestora you can effectively run 2 DC units.

Rending power fists with furious charge & preferred enemy assaulting a mech line from deepstrike.

G

jbunny wrote:I only ask cause you mentioned putting him in a LRC.

Yeah, there goes that plan.

Jesus, I was really looking forward to DC being awesome, but I can't fathom running them over Exalted for the point cost. At least not in jump packs, but maybe that's supposed to be intentional.

Taking them on foot with some non-jump-packed HQ in a redeemer could potentially be pretty good (if extremely pricy).

They're too vulnerable, too expensive, and not powerful enough.

I dont think DC are overpriced at all.. For 22 pts you get a veteran (18) points and then for *4* points you get FNP and furious charge. If you want the EXACT same unit as before just take lemartes.. basically same cost. 495 in new book for 10 DC with JP and Lemartes or 475 in old book.. So for 20 points more you get furious charge every round if you win combat.. Its not a huge difference point wise now

The only reason people think theyre not very good is cause we were spoiled with Mr Crutch (IE Dante).. The entire army book was basically garbage without him, and now we dont know how to run ba without him lol.. Chaplains were used long before Dante with super preferred enemy existed.

Pretty good in my mind! They can even take their own chaplain.. DC are the unit you use to keep pressing the advantage in CC with.. Use them with other units, keep winning combat which makes DC EXCELLENT in combats that last more than 1 round

Wiping someone out in round 1 is a bad idea generally

It was not until recent (last month) that I even used Dante. I would either just use LeMartes, or Mephiston/Cobulo combo. But I see how Dante is extremely useful.

Kirasu wrote:I dont think DC are overpriced at all.. For 22 pts you get a veteran (18) points and then for *4* points you get FNP and furious charge. If you want the EXACT same unit as before just take lemartes.. basically same cost. 495 in new book for 10 DC with JP and Lemartes or 475 in old book.. So for 20 points more you get furious charge every round if you win combat.. Its not a huge difference point wise now

The only reason people think theyre not very good is cause we were spoiled with Mr Crutch (IE Dante).. The entire army book was basically garbage without him, and now we dont know how to run ba without him lol.. Chaplains were used long before Dante with super preferred enemy existed.

Pretty good in my mind! They can even take their own chaplain.. DC are the unit you use to keep pressing the advantage in CC with.. Use them with other units, keep winning combat which makes DC EXCELLENT in combats that last more than 1 round

Wiping someone out in round 1 is a bad idea generally

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

But then Exalted are miserably undercosted.

Hmm this could be an interesting codex, the new lander sounds way cool, and a fast predator. I am going to assume it is a draft(if it is not a fake), I think "angels" was misspelled a couple of times amongst others errors. But then again this could really make for a fun codex to proxy world eaters...... LoL

The number of misspellings also makes me think it's a "rough draft" of sorts.

I can see myself running a whole ton of bloodthirsty Flesh Tearers. That in and of itself really sounds like a hoot. However, I really don't need to buy yet another Marine army. I have enough MEQs as is. Seth sounds cooler and cooler though.

1: scouts can take a LS Storm as a Transport option
2: scout bikers get a fancy beacon reliminary Bridgehead: After assigning the deployment zones but before deployment, the Blood Angels player can place a Stealth Locator Beacon Marker anywhere on the table. If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike from turn two on and chooses to do so within 6" of the marker and simultaneous there is no enemy unit in 6" of the marker, then it won't scatter.

i think, with the leaked codex at least, you can make a good combined arms army. Enough guns to put some dents in transports and still have a decent assault element.

somethign along the lines of a few typhoons, few baals withs autos and missiles and then melta/flamer toting assault troops to fill out.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lurker wrote:
(Exalted)

Thoughts on these guys? Decent or just as overpriced as Vanguard?

They cost ~15 pts less per model than any comparable SM unit anywhere ever.

Given that those "comparable" SM are hugely overpriced and unplayable, that's OK.

19 pts AM base +2 Vet +1 SB, +5 PW, +1 frag&krak, +2 H&R, +2 Paragon = 32 pts; 10% combo & non-scoring discount means points are about right. They're playable if not competitively-priced.
____

Kirasu wrote:Yes, vanguard suck we know :p

THe reason, IMO, that th/ss terms are 50pts is cause GW wants codex: marines to have ONE decent thing left in the book

And that was the point, BTW - Vanguard were always intended to be uncompetitive and overpriced, because UMs don't do JP assault in a big way. GW just overdid the intentional overpricing a little bit.

UMs will still have Thunderfire instead of Ogryn Servitors, Sternguard, Vulkan, etc. as shooty advantages over BA fighty advatages. Plus, Tactics. It's not the end of the world for the blue marines.
____

Brother SRM wrote:The number of misspellings also makes me think it's a "rough draft" of sorts.

Like, say, a *playtest* Codex?

Speaking from personal experience when I was gifted with the WD codex a few months before release it was a PDF file which meant in order to post it on an internet forum I had to hand type everything basically

That alone leads to a lot of typos and other errors.. Im gonna guess thats what happened with this version

You try to copy stuff as fast as you can and well it doesnt turn out 100%

im gonna try out mephiston bomb with a big unit of DC that move as cav and be behind some kind of cover and yet ignore cover!

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lurker wrote:@LORD_BLACKFANG
The fact remains that EXALTED are 30pts a pop. Vanguard are 35pts(?) with a power weapon

And without a jump pack.

Shazam!
Missed that one!
Interesting to see John's breakdown and others thoughts too.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Rending power fists with furious charge & preferred enemy assaulting a mech line from deepstrike.

G

Or scattering onto the target, rolling a 1 on the mishap, and really making your day... Can't see inertial guidance on that Lander unit entry.

torgoch wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Rending power fists with furious charge & preferred enemy assaulting a mech line from deepstrike.

G

Or scattering onto the target, rolling a 1 on the mishap, and really making your day... Can't see inertial guidance on that Lander unit entry.

Thank the Emprah

Still, I'm going to have fun with them. (Also, Lemartes only gives chainswords Rending, not any PWs in DC.)

I really don't mind a 50pt mark up per TH/SS Terminator squad. As good as the SS is it shouldn't have been a free upgrade.

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

Therion wrote:Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I don't know that I'd say that all the assault units are terrible to mediocre, but I think you do make a good point in needing to find a way to synergize assaulting troops w/ fleet - Storm Harbingers only allow Assault Squads w/ Jump Packs to assault from them. Other than that, the BA have no other new or interesting vehicles capable of delivering troops to assault - we're left with the Land Raider variants and the laughable LS Storm (which with Baal Initiates and some other tricks, though, could potentially be interesting - I need to look at it some more, though).

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I dunno about that. I'm not a competitive or tournament player yet, so I really don't know what qualifies as good or not, but those calvalry furioso dreads seem pretty damn cool. And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken (I play Necrons) but the furioso dreads are awesome for those points. I think that they'd do a pretty damn good job of wrecking most units in CC.

torgoch wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Rending power fists with furious charge & preferred enemy assaulting a mech line from deepstrike.

G

Or scattering onto the target, rolling a 1 on the mishap, and really making your day... Can't see inertial guidance on that Lander unit entry.

I play daemons so I'm used to handling these types of situations.

G

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

Don't hit that hard?

LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

DC=12 LC attacks,9 hits,8 PW wounds+12 Rending attacks,9 hits,6-7 normal wounds+1-2 PW wounds.
LeMartes=5 PW attacks,4 hits,3 PW wounds

Equipped like that,they'll wipe a 10-man MEQ unit out at I5 before they even get a chance to swing back with plenty of room to spare,and you're pretty much guaranteed at least one charge with full numbers with Storm Harbinger. Putting an HQ like LeMartes in there with an Invuln helps you with P.Guns and PW's.

Now that we essentially have a full codex to work from, does anyone else think it's worth moving to/starting a new discussion in the tactics forum?

Ostrakon wrote:

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I dunno about that. I'm not a competitive or tournament player yet, so I really don't know what qualifies as good or not, but those calvalry furioso dreads seem pretty damn cool. And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken (I play Necrons) but the furioso dreads are awesome for those points. I think that they'd do a pretty damn good job of wrecking most units in CC.

As far as I can tell, Exalted can't take any sort of transports.

I'm pondering the ability of a Librarian Dread in a Drop Pod's ability to really mess with a Leafblower artillery park, such as they exist. Throw out a Shockwave and melta shot (one psychic shooting attack and one "normal" shooting attack) should really hurt any tank/arty park within 12".

'Course, with most such things, it's probably too pricey to actually work... But against squadrons of AV 12/10/10 vehicles, it could be mighty nasty!

Vale,

JohnS

I don't think that the Death Company is a bad unit. It just isn't manditory any more. In the last codex there was no reason not to take the Death Company. The BA didn't have any other units that could compare. Now they have been toned down a bit and there are other units that are just as good. This hopefullly means that you will see a couple different BA builds and not that same one or two over and over again.

I think that it is going to take a while for BA players to get use to the DC especially since most of us have been relying on them for so long.

I like this codex. Of course I'm a fan of the more quirky options. . . Grenade Launcher for Devastators, All Stubborn army with Astorath. Fast Baal Predator w/Multi Meltas or Missile Launchers. Sergeant Lorenzo's Overwatch ability, Librarian Furioso w/Shockwave against Guard. There seems to be lots of different fun things in this codex. Whether they are competative or not is another issue but at least I have the option of trying them out.

Ostrakon wrote: And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Um, if the Storm Harbinger is a Skimmer, I don't think you get cover behind it.

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Did you consider them bad in the WD edition of the codex, because (as someone else already suggested, but I have not checked yet) I'm under the impression that they cost very close to the same amount and have the same abilities if you include Lemartes. The only difference is that rather than have the points spread out across the whole force, it's now actually within the squad.
I have not considered how much they will be left wanting if you don't couple them with Lemartes.

Whatever1 wrote:LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

You're talking about a unit that has cost you over 720 points vs a unit that is less than 200! That's nearly a 3rd of the value of your army in 3 units (the DC w/ Lemartes, the Storm Harbinger, and the VAS necessary to get you your LCs.)

Nosferatu wrote:As far as I can tell, Exalted can't take any sort of transports.

True, but there's no reason not to get a Storm Harbinger for something like a Tac Squad and then letting the Exalted use it. Sure, you can't use it to deep strike them in, but it'll be a solid way to get them to where you need them to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nosferatu wrote:I like this codex. Of course I'm a fan of the more quirky options. . . Grenade Launcher for Devastators,

I'm undecided about these guys. They're sort of like a squad armed with super-bolters. I don't know if it's worth the extra points, though.

Nosferatu wrote:All Stubborn army with Astorath.

Again, I'm undecided on this - I mean, regular SM can have an all Stubborn army with Pedro, and the general census on that is pretty poor. Granted, in a regular SM army, you -want- your Tac Squads to fall back after being assaulted so that they can shoot the assaulting unit. If you're building an army that you -want- to stay in the fight after being assaulted, then yeah, this may make sense. I need to think more about it, though.

Nosferatu wrote:Fast Baal Predator w/Multi Meltas or Missile Launchers.

I can see the appeal of using the MLs on this so you can use them as defensive weapons as you would with a Typhoon, but for something that you're going to want to sit in your backfield to best use the range of the MLs, I don't think the extra cost of the overcharged engines is worth it. That said, I think that if you're building an assault vehicle, the overcharged engines and MMs might be the way to go. It's a few points more expensive than a Devil Dog, with marginally better front armor, a better chance to kill tanks due to BS4, but more easily killable due to being open-topped and getting destroyed instead of immobilized when you go fast. Personally, I think the army's got better ways to kill tanks for the points spent.

Nosferatu wrote:Sergeant Lorenzo's Overwatch ability

Useful for setting up firelanes, but considering that it's done instead of shooting, I think it's way overpriced.

Nosferatu wrote:Librarian Furioso w/Shockwave against Guard.

I've got mixed feelings about the Librarian Furioso - while Shockwave could be good, I'd rather it be the strength of the blast that is stronger the nearer you are to the Furioso rather than it having to do with the number of vehicles affected. That said, I think a Furioso Librarian w/ Quickening could be pretty heinous. Run him with Seth and give him Fleet, too? Yipes. That's a heck of a threat radius even if you don't Drop Pod him.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

You're talking about a unit that has cost you over 720 points vs a unit that is less than 200! That's nearly a 3rd of the value of your army in 3 units (the DC w/ Lemartes, the Storm Harbinger, and the VAS necessary to get you your LCs.)

Huh?

LeMartes=175
7 DC=154
7xJump Packs=70
4xLightening Claw=60
Storm Harbringer=140
Total=599

Little bit more than an 8-man AS in a LR. In either case,not a whole of units are going to wipe a full 10 man MEQ squad in a single round of combat,especially without taking casualties. If you want a more CC oriented example...

LeMartes+7 DC w/4 LC in Storm Harbringer(599 pts.) vs. 3xCarnifex Brood w/Crushing Claws,Adrenal Glands(595 pts.)

Storm Harbringer's Tantalus Shots=7 hits,1 AP 1 wound,2-3 normal wounds

LeMartes=5 attacks,4 Hits,1-2 PW wounds
4 DC w/LC=12 attacks,10-11 hits,6-7 PW wounds
3 DC=12 attacks,10-11 hits,1-2 PW wounds,4-5 normal wounds

The SH will,on average,get 1 Rending shot off 7 hits. The 'fexes will drop a save,on average,off the normal wounds inflicted,as well. That leaves 10 wounds left on the 'fexes heading into CC. LeMartes and the DC will inflict 9-10 PW wounds on average,and the 'fex will still have 4-5 other wounds to save even if it turns out to be 9. That's not factoring in the BP shots off the squad,either. On average,the DC DS assaulting out of a Storm Harbringer will eat a brood of 3 Carnifexes without suffering any casualties.

Dont forget to factor in the cost of the veteran assault squad you need in your army to get access to those lightning claws.

I don't know why all these people are bummed about the death company. They stayed pretty much the same and got 3 points cheaper according to the rumors.

I guess some people are just never happy.

The key with 40k though is to hit with a lot more than the unit you are hitting so that you can keep ping-ponging around without losing oomph.

Hitting 200pts with 600pts means that once you've wiped out that 200pt squad you might be down 50pts; you hit a 2nd 200pt squad and you might than be down to 500pts.

You've wiped out 200pts for a loss of 100pts and still are strong enough to wipe out a 3rd squad of 200pts meaning you just at least earned your points back.

Hit a 200pt squad with 200pt squad you might wipe it but most likely suffer heavy enough casualties that your 200pt squad loses enough "oomph" to no longer be effective meaning they become just a throw away unit next turn.

@Mike L: Don't forget DC are now truly optional, so you don't have to take them if you don't want to.

Fateweaver wrote:The key with 40k though is to hit with a lot more than the unit you are hitting so that you can keep ping-ponging around without losing oomph.

Hitting 200pts with 600pts means that once you've wiped out that 200pt squad you might be down 50pts; you hit a 2nd 200pt squad and you might than be down to 500pts.

You've wiped out 200pts for a loss of 100pts and still are strong enough to wipe out a 3rd squad of 200pts meaning you just at least earned your points back.

Hit a 200pt squad with 200pt squad you might wipe it but most likely suffer heavy enough casualties that your 200pt squad loses enough "oomph" to no longer be effective meaning they become just a throw away unit next turn.

The tactic you described worked really well in 3rd and 4th ed when you could consolidate into a fresh combat. Multicharging helps a little bit, but Nob Bikers have the advantage of being resilient and having giant bases for this approach. Regular infantry, not so much.

I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

No joke, my initial impression is that they farking rock.

Rending Lightning claws and powerfists here I come!!!

G

I believe, from the way it is worded, that only the chainswords actually rend with Lemartes.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

Some people seem to think that they are bad because T4 3+ FNP is insufficiently tough against power weapons, plasma, etc. In point of fact I find that T4 3+ without FNP is usually tough enough, and FNP is icing on the cake. Death Company definitely look like a threatening unit to me, especially with the built-in Chaplain.

Death Company rock.. the codex gives a couple of different ways they can be used and point for point they beat nob bikers any day of the week and people still think those things are cool.

15 DC spread out with power fists on 7 dudes will just about trash a transport list because they will be able to assault most of them on turn 2 and be swinging str 9 on rear armor. If you are running them with longlegged meph then you don't even need jump packs.

Khornatedemon wrote:Dont forget to factor in the cost of the veteran assault squad you need in your army to get access to those lightning claws.

Why? BA VAS squads are already cheaper per model than AS Sgt's for the same statline(25 pts./model for VAS vs. 29 for AS Sgt.). That makes it obvious right there that they didn't inflate the VAS's point cost for the ability to give DC PW's. The VAS's are still an extremely versatile unit in their own right. If you want them on the cheap just to give DC PW's,then just buy a 5-man VAS squad and give them 2 melta-guns and a Rhino. Or use them like a retinue for Seth,if you're going for a balls-out Jump Troop army.

Just listing off the top of my head...

Seth w/Jump Pack=210
LeMartes=175
7-man DC w/4xLC and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=434
7-man HG w/2xPF,5xPLC and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=510
8-man AS w/Flamer,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=222
8-man AS w/Flamer,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=222
8-man AS w/Melta,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=227

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

Brother SRM wrote:The number of misspellings also makes me think it's a "rough draft" of sorts.

The appalling writing in general makes me think it's a fake.

It's either a reasonably well-done (if somewhat wishlisty) fan codex, or it's a sign that GW have outsourced their rules development to a Chinese sweatshop.

I looked over this fandex again and I just seems more fake every time.
I guess we just have to wait for its release.
Waaaaggghhhhhh
The new lander is still cool

Apparently, some guy over at warseer says he´s seen an email that was
sent to all GW stores advising that the leaked codex is in fact the real codex.

link: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=29

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

I think that's the bottom line with BA lists. "Woohoo air cav assault marines!" won't be much fun once you're getting tabled game after game.

Why I think DC are garbage is because they don't have any extra bang for the buck. They hit as hard as 50 point models have to be able to hit the minimum, but they die as easily as 15 point models. I see no use whatsoever for units like that. Be serious here. If a 600 point unit hits as hard as 3 200 point units but dies as easily as 1 200 point unit, just get 3 200 point units instead.

I have played the current DC extensively and if they have one attribute it's that they are incredibly tough in the hands of a capable player. If rumors are true they'll be great at killing things again.

G

Of course by incredibly tough you mean lucky if they don't meet any capable players with units designed to kill Marines (ap2/power weapons).

Aren't you the guy who said eldar would suck when GW released their 4th edition codex... You know, when holo falcons were broke?

G

I thought that was the release of 5th when he felt so strongly about it he sold his very nicely painted Eldar force...

No it was during 4th edition when he panned the new eldar. It gained him some notoriety .

G

cerebaton wrote:Now that we essentially have a full codex to work from, does anyone else think it's worth moving to/starting a new discussion in the tactics forum?

Smart and could give a leg up on possible FAQ questions. Unlike currently unplayable without rules lawyering, arguing nids.

No it was during 4th edition when he panned the new eldar. It gained him some notoriety .

Haha, notoriety. It was indeed during the release of 5th when my absolutely stunningly painted tri-Falcon Eldar army was sent through ebay to a collector in USA.

Here's my Falcon babies: http://coolminiornot.com/234930

Really I'm the guy who just likes to play good armies against good opponents and generally does very well at tournaments. As far as Dakka goes it's a little sad that none of the old American tournament guys like mauleed post here. Casual gamers are trying to take over. I won't allow it.

jspyd3rx wrote:

cerebaton wrote:Now that we essentially have a full codex to work from, does anyone else think it's worth moving to/starting a new discussion in the tactics forum?

Smart and could give a leg up on possible FAQ questions. Unlike currently unplayable without rules lawyering, arguing nids.

Done http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278236.page

Rending Lightning claws and powerfists here I come!!!

Unless the BAs have some new special rule that overrides the BGB, Rending does not work with special CCWs.

also, as was pointed out a few times before in this thread, Lemartes' special rule only applies to the unit's chainswords.

Therion wrote:

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

I think that's the bottom line with BA lists. "Woohoo air cav assault marines!" won't be much fun once you're getting tabled game after game.

Why I think DC are garbage is because they don't have any extra bang for the buck. They hit as hard as 50 point models have to be able to hit the minimum, but they die as easily as 15 point models. I see no use whatsoever for units like that. Be serious here. If a 600 point unit hits as hard as 3 200 point units but dies as easily as 1 200 point unit, just get 3 200 point units instead.

I think it just goes to show how incredibly narrow Space Marine design space has become. I'm not looking forward to the new Dark Angels or Black Templars, each with their own half a dozen of named units that fulfill old roles just a little bit differently.

Therion wrote:Really I'm the guy who just likes to play good armies against good opponents and generally does very well at tournaments. As far as Dakka goes it's a little sad that none of the old American tournament guys like mauleed post here. Casual gamers are trying to take over. I won't allow it.

Yes, how dare the majority act like their opinion is in any way important?

Therion wrote:Really I'm the guy who just likes to play good armies against good opponents and generally does very well at tournaments. As far as Dakka goes it's a little sad that none of the old American tournament guys like mauleed post here. Casual gamers are trying to take over. I won't allow it.

'Cuz GBF is the casual gamer exemplified. (No offense, GBF. )

Agamemnon2 wrote:I think it just goes to show how incredibly narrow Space Marine design space has become.

I'm not looking forward to the new Dark Angels or Black Templars, each with their own half a dozen of named units that fulfill old roles just a little bit differently.

It has to be, esp due to the poor early conceptual work saying BA and SW were Codex, along with DA being Codex with just a couple things renamed. Niching the sub-Codices is good design, making them distinct from default to justify their existence.

I'm looking forward to BT2, as the varying across Crusades hasn't been well explored to give players freedom in tailoring their BT Crusade. Right now, BT are still very cookie-cutter mono-build, mono-look. Having some defined breadth like the BA Faustian/Sanguiary, Inq Radical/Puritan, CSM Red Corsair/Cult can only help clarify the army's "proper" range.

DA3 is also going to be nice, as GW can finally flesh out the Unforgiven Chapters in more detail, similar to the BA FT/Sang. I look forward to major Fluff advances here.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

I think that's the bottom line with BA lists. "Woohoo air cav assault marines!" won't be much fun once you're getting tabled game after game.

Why I think DC are garbage is because they don't have any extra bang for the buck. They hit as hard as 50 point models have to be able to hit the minimum, but they die as easily as 15 point models. I see no use whatsoever for units like that. Be serious here. If a 600 point unit hits as hard as 3 200 point units but dies as easily as 1 200 point unit, just get 3 200 point units instead.

I think it just goes to show how incredibly narrow Space Marine design space has become. I'm not looking forward to the new Dark Angels or Black Templars, each with their own half a dozen of named units that fulfill old roles just a little bit differently.

Therion wrote:Really I'm the guy who just likes to play good armies against good opponents and generally does very well at tournaments. As far as Dakka goes it's a little sad that none of the old American tournament guys like mauleed post here. Casual gamers are trying to take over. I won't allow it.

Yes, how dare the majority act like their opinion is in any way important?

So, what? Because the majority of gamers are casual, their opinions matter the most?

I'm a casual 40K player but a diehard MTG tournament player. Casual players - in any game - are ridiculously easy to please. They don't care about statistics, probability, or balance. They care about their own initial impression of a given unit or card - the "coolness" factor- and run it without a second though. Casual players see 8-CMC legends, mistakenly call them 'broken', and make terrible decks to play against their casual friends and lose in tournaments. And they're important because their collective purchases help keep the game going.

40K is the same way. When I saw the Trygon for the first time, I didn't care what its stats are. Same goes for the Storm Harbinger, the concept of jump shcok troops rushing out is just too cool to ignore. Hell, I play Necrons and routinely get my ass handed to me by veteran players. But I still keep playing because that crap doesn't matter to me (it does a little, but still) because I am a casual player.

So since I'm so easily pleased by the "coolness factor" of the fluff and models, designers need to work harder on balance and making competitive players have a healthy game to play. If they released a 10 point S6 T6 FNP PW calvalry model with relentless and twin-linked assault cannons, it would screw up the tournament environment and casual players would go nuts. If they made it 100 points, guess what? Casual players would still go nuts, and although tournament players might lament that it's not a terribly competitive model, they're not directly harmed by its inclusion. If anything it helps them steamroll weaker players because it's a "skill tester", like many of the jank rares in MTG.

Can someone fill in the glossary for DC HG AS for dakka?
Im guessing DC = Death Company but dunno the other 2

Honor Guard , Assault Squad

RED ALERT

I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:RED ALERT

I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

G

Awwww, I was kinda getting used to this one. Early, not final draft I'd be willing to believe, but an outright hoax? People have too much time on their hands.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

Colour me completely unsurprised.

If the Storm Harbinger can really transport bikes I'm gonna loot the crap out of it.

The stolen Space Marine Transport was flying across the Battlefield. Through a monitor Warlord Korrag could see that the enemy command squad would soon be in reach. He put on his helmet and hammered the button which lowered the front ramp. With an evil smile on his face he put on his helmet and started his engines.

Commander Vultus couldn't believe what he saw. Not only did the Orks somehow manage to get their filthy claws on a Storm Harbinger, it was moving in on them. Then the assault ramp was lowered and in a huge cloud of black smoke 5 huge Orks on Motorcycles were jumping out of the flyer, somehow charging them in the process.

Yes please.

Yes, how dare the majority act like their opinion is in any way important?

That's not what I mean and you know it.

I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

I sure hope so. The only thing that I sort of like is the Storm Harbinger assault cannons counting as one weapon system so they can all be fired on the move.

Therion wrote:

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

I think that's the bottom line with BA lists. "Woohoo air cav assault marines!" won't be much fun once you're getting tabled game after game.

Why I think DC are garbage is because they don't have any extra bang for the buck. They hit as hard as 50 point models have to be able to hit the minimum, but they die as easily as 15 point models. I see no use whatsoever for units like that. Be serious here. If a 600 point unit hits as hard as 3 200 point units but dies as easily as 1 200 point unit, just get 3 200 point units instead.

Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems. Now,there's builds that will give DS/SH/AM builds problems,too,and there should be. It's called game balance. If you can just roll over every army in existance with a single build,then the army is broken from a rules perspective.

They don't die as easily as 15 point models. They have FNP. They die as easily as 15 point models against certain weapons,of which a typical squad will carry a maximum of 3. FNP isn't designed to make the unit invincible from everything. It's designed to make them more resiliant to the mundane weapons that make up at least 70% of every army list. What do you expect? Sure,a 5+ Invuln instead of FNP would make them more resilient to PG's and PW's. It makes them MORE vulnerable to boltguns and mundane attacks,however. A 5 point Imperial Guardsman dies just as easily from a Plasma Gun as a 15 point Grey Hunter. Does that make Grey Hunters overcosted? No,of course not.

If you prefer to spam 10-man Tac Squads in Rhinos,then spam 10-man Tac Squads in Rhinos. However,just because you'd prefer multiple 10-man Tac Squads in Rhinos,doesn't mean that higher-priced units aren't worth it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:RED ALERT

I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

G

Do you have any more info? I say this because, I mean, there's the actual leak, which in my opinion isn't polished, but is';t too outlandish. There's also the matter of this email from GW to stores which adds a point to the 'confirmed' column, and that's from several sources.

Its a trap.......

If it's a hoax its a very elaborate one. It is more than likely just an early-ish beta version.

Next month we'll likely see another version.

Commander Endova wrote: I say this because, I mean, there's the actual leak, which in my opinion isn't polished, but is';t too outlandish.

Not too outlandish?

The 'Blood-Forged Blade'... a cringeworthily-named unique sword found by the Flesh Tearers, but for some reason available to generic Blood Angel Captains?

The 'Storm Harbinger'...?

insaniak wrote:

Commander Endova wrote: I say this because, I mean, there's the actual leak, which in my opinion isn't polished, but is';t too outlandish.

Not too outlandish?

The 'Blood-Forged Blade'... a cringeworthily-named unique sword found by the Flesh Tearers, but for some reason available to generic Blood Angel Captains?

The 'Storm Harbinger'...?

Considering the near complete lack of fluff restrictions in modern day rules and encouragement of counts-as I don't see anything absurd with your first point at all.

I think someone was having a bit of fun and now hopefully we will wait until we see something more substantial. Rumors are conflicting with rumors. If something sounds too good to be true then in all likelihood it is. Every codex is touted as unbelievably awesome prior to it's release. We've been through this type of exercise many times before. To me it's funny that still no one knows who wrote the codex. When we have a name to go with the codex then I think we will be closer to the truth.

G

Whatever1 wrote:Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems.

And you don't think that's the point? To force 40k armies to mech up?

Let's suppose some of the rumors are based on truth... A close combat unit with jump packs and meltas deepstrikes in a lander. The lander is a fast skimmer and can fire the quad linked assault cannon at one vehicle then the jump pack unit either shoots and assaults another vehicle or assaults whatever spills out of the first destroyed vehicle. This sequence could potentially wreck any mechanized army.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Let's suppose some of the rumors are based on truth... A close combat unit with jump packs and meltas deepstrikes in a lander. The lander is a fast skimmer and can fire the quad linked assault cannon at one vehicle then the jump pack unit either shoots and assaults another vehicle or assaults whatever spills out of the first destroyed vehicle. This sequence could potentially wreck any mechanized army.

Frankly, with TL Flamers or TL Plasma and the Tantalus, foot-based armies aren't going to have an easy time of it either. I'd rather take my chances meching up - consider it one more obstacle to take care of before killing my troops.

I'm thinking the codex leak is pretty close to what's coming out. There's a lot of fluff stuck around the entry descriptions, that'd be a hell of a job to do.

Assuming (generally bad to do but still...) that this is a close enough copy of the codex, who else likes the look of AC/MML Baals at 100 points? 2S8, 2S7 at BS4 and fast... thank you and yes, please.

Slackermagee wrote:I'm thinking the codex leak is pretty close to what's coming out. There's a lot of fluff stuck around the entry descriptions, that'd be a hell of a job to do.

Assuming (generally bad to do but still...) that this is a close enough copy of the codex, who else likes the look of AC/MML Baals at 100 points? 2S8, 2S7 at BS4 and fast... thank you and yes, please.

they are 125 if you make them fast

blood angel wrote:If it's a hoax its a very elaborate one. It is more than likely just an early-ish beta version.

Next month we'll likely see another version.

I think it's partly early stuff, partly collated rumours and a little insider knowledge, and some ..... inventive.... writing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems.

And you don't think that's the point? To force 40k armies to mech up?

I don't know how much good meching up is going to do,though. I mean,the Storm Harbringer DS's in behind a Rhino,and gets 8 TL S6 shots on it's back armor. If the Rhino doesn't go up from that,then it could very well go up from the Infernus Pistol and/or Melta-gun you put into it from the squad that's assaulting.

Whatever1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems.

And you don't think that's the point? To force 40k armies to mech up?

I don't know how much good meching up is going to do,though. I mean,the Storm Harbringer DS's in behind a Rhino,and gets 8 TL S6 shots on it's back armor. If the Rhino doesn't go up from that,then it could very well go up from the Infernus Pistol and/or Melta-gun you put into it from the squad that's assaulting.

Well....the point I imagine John is making; 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun blowing up a 35 point rhino....is better than 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun shooting marines on foot =p. If the Rhino saves you two wounds over the course of the game, ignoring the mobility it gives you, it has still 'made' its points.

It looks like GW has given the go ahead to make BA really broken again. As a long standing BA player I am very excited about it to be completely honest. Its a great feeling to know they will be a beat stick list again.

G

AoE: Exactly. Transport is a force multiplier under new rules, so armies are encouraged to take them for mobility and protection.

Welcome to 5th edition. Buy $30 35 point units or lose.

Well, that, too.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems.

And you don't think that's the point? To force 40k armies to mech up?

I don't know how much good meching up is going to do,though. I mean,the Storm Harbringer DS's in behind a Rhino,and gets 8 TL S6 shots on it's back armor. If the Rhino doesn't go up from that,then it could very well go up from the Infernus Pistol and/or Melta-gun you put into it from the squad that's assaulting.

Well....the point I imagine John is making; 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun blowing up a 35 point rhino....is better than 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun shooting marines on foot =p. If the Rhino saves you two wounds over the course of the game, ignoring the mobility it gives you, it has still 'made' its points.

True,better to have the transport unloading on a Rhino instead of a naked troop squad. At the same time,the Rhino has to save more than 2 guys to get it's points value. Reason being,the Rhino greatly reduces the shooting capability of the unit inside it from 10 models to 2 models or 0 models if it gets Shaken or Stunned. It's a trade off where you're increasing the squad's maneuverability and survivability in exchange for losing offensive capability. Still,at 35/model,Rhinos are hard to pass up.

Whatever1 wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:Actually,air cav assault causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Necrons are boned. Tau can't deal with it. Infantry heavy IG are in trouble. 'zilla nids. Pretty much any army build that relies on surviving CC charges by whittling the assaulting units down with fire as they come accross the board is going to have problems.

And you don't think that's the point? To force 40k armies to mech up?

I don't know how much good meching up is going to do,though. I mean,the Storm Harbringer DS's in behind a Rhino,and gets 8 TL S6 shots on it's back armor. If the Rhino doesn't go up from that,then it could very well go up from the Infernus Pistol and/or Melta-gun you put into it from the squad that's assaulting.

Well....the point I imagine John is making; 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun blowing up a 35 point rhino....is better than 8 TL S6 shots and a Melta Gun shooting marines on foot =p. If the Rhino saves you two wounds over the course of the game, ignoring the mobility it gives you, it has still 'made' its points.

True,better to have the transport unloading on a Rhino instead of a naked troop squad. At the same time,the Rhino has to save more than 2 guys to get it's points value. Reason being,the Rhino greatly reduces the shooting capability of the unit inside it from 10 models to 2 models or 0 models if it gets Shaken or Stunned. It's a trade off where you're increasing the squad's maneuverability and survivability in exchange for losing offensive capability. Still,at 35/model,Rhinos are hard to pass up.

Well, as a Marine player I'll say tacs are good for three things;

Shooting a las cannon downfield while squatting inside a rhino on an objective
Riding in a rhino to melta something near an objective
Jumping out of a rhino to rapid fire something (pretty weak against most things, as after you rapid fire they are dead)


I don't consider them offensive at all. They die in hth against most anything and rapid fire doesn't do much against most anything. However, even if HTH or rapid fire is an option....again the Rhino will help you get there. They're just a must take/no brainer choice now. Space Wolves could possibly go all foot, with two Priests giving cover...as they can give up the initiative with counter attack/extra CCWs....but even then at 35 points...why not the rhino?

Let's examine lander rush versus a walking army and a mechanized army. This will assume that the lander has a quad assault cannon, and that jump infantry can disembark and assault from landers the turn the transports arrive via deep strike. I would like to note that at this point I think it's still quite up in air (pun) if jump infantry will be able to assault from landers when the transport have moved the same turn.

Non mechanized army
I will use Necrons as an example since this army cannot embark in transports. A lander arrives, fires it quad assault cannon, then the embarked jump infantry unit can disembark, fleet or shoot then finally launch an assault. It's always possible that the targeted unit might break and fallback after they are shot by the quad assault cannon leaving the jump infantry unit hanging in the wind. Therefore, it might be better to shoot the quad assault cannon and target a different unit with the jump infantry unit. Necrons have a high leadership so probably then won't break after being shot by the quad assault cannon but there is always that risk. The first targeted Necron unit will most likely suffer some wounds from the quad assault cannon but not break. The second targeted Necron unit may suffer some wounds from shooting and it's possible they might break as well at the end of the shooting phase so it might be best for the jump infantry unit to fleet and then assault after disembarking. Depending upon the build of the jump infantry unit it's quite possible they can destroy a unit of Necrons during the assault. So the best result that is most likely to occur is one Necron unit suffers some wounds from shooting and another Necron unit is destroyed during the assault phase.

Mechanized Army
Let's consider Imperial Guard since currently they are considered by many to be a top tiered army when mechanized. IG vets do not have a good armor save so if shooting from the quad cannon results in destroying a chimera then a good number of the embarked vets will suffer wounds as a result. If the jump infantry unit can shoot another chimera with melta weapons there are good odds they will destroy it and possibly be able to assault the vets after they fall out. So versus this mech there are good odds the Blood Angels can destroy two chimeras, put a significant number of wounds on the first squad of vets and possibly destroy another squad of vets.

If these rules come to pass then the most likely counter for mech armies is to sacrifice some of their transports as shield walls versus the alpha strike. That is, mechanized units will start outside their transports (behind them) and these transports will provide cover saves to the rest of the army. The mech army will then rely upon counter shooting their following turn to destroy the landers that have arrived and also shoot the jump infantry units that have disembarked.

So following the above analysis for these two particular armies it's probably better to have a mechanized army since the transports provide an effective shield wall. If the transports have smoke launchers then that also helps out the mech army as it is an effective counter to the alpha strike. Any army playing against the Blood Angels alpha strike can always resort to starting with their whole army or a signicant portion in reserve as another counter but I think it would better to start with everything on the table so they will have more units to counter shoot.

I could go on with the analysis to cover a wider range of armies but knowing that the rumors are just that I don't think it's worth it at this point.

G

Great analysis, GBF. I spent a portion of my afternoon thinking along very similar lines. According to my theoryhammer calculations, though, a Harbinger's only going to be able to kill a transport a little better than half the time.

I want to expand on this more as I did a bunch of calculations examining tank-killing abilities, but I've got to do bathtime with the kids...

insaniak wrote:

Commander Endova wrote: I say this because, I mean, there's the actual leak, which in my opinion isn't polished, but is';t too outlandish.

Not too outlandish?

The 'Blood-Forged Blade'... a cringeworthily-named unique sword found by the Flesh Tearers, but for some reason available to generic Blood Angel Captains?

The 'Storm Harbinger'...?

normally i'd agree with that but after the space wolf codex i wouldn't put any of the possible corniness past GW. seriously, we now have

Thunder... THUNDER... THUNDERWOLVES, HOOOOOOO!!! really, the space "wolves" ride giant wolves?? that's the best they could come up with?

Frost Blades -apparently being swung by a 7ft steroid superman in powerarmor isn't enough... making them chilly gives it 25% MOAR POWER!

Blood Claws who can now diversify their portfolios by becoming Swift and Sky varieties... that's original.


GW has apparently turned the corniness up to 11 for marines. the leaked BA codex doesn't deviate from the standard; it is the standard.

For each BA Techmarine, a tac squad can take a LR as a dedicated transport??? Guess we'll see some LR spam lists real soon.

Ironhide wrote:For each BA Techmarine, a tac squad can take a LR as a dedicated transport??? Guess we'll see some LR spam lists real soon.

Technically, this isn't that good. Techmarines are expensive, and those LRs are 250+ pts each. I'm dubious here.

Yeah, and what you're doing really is exchanging Heavy Slots for Elite Slots - you're either buying a LR by getting a Techmarine (pricey) or a Tech Adept in a VAS that you make an Honor Squad (which, if you're already running a VAS is incredibly cheaper - though if you're not is considerably more expensive.)

I don't see this being used to abuse LR spam - too expensive overall. I see this as being a way for people who have maxed their HS on Baal Predators or Furiosos to still find a way to run a LR. You could potentially run 6 LRs this way, but considering that would run you at least 1920 pts, you'd have enough points for a Sanguinary High Priest as your HQ and have 5 pts left over for your 2000 pt list - pretty ridiculous.

Land Raiders are expensive enough that even if every marine army could use them as dedicated transports for multiple units you'd never see all that many at once.

In other news PDF updated with jokes and funny stuff, apparently to show that he trolled us good.

Pity.

Jack

Quite frankly, if this is close to the end product, I'd put this codex about on par with Vanilla Marines for its strongest builds, and probably less than Vanilla Marines for generic battle-box-esque builds.

I do think there's a very strong AV13 spam list:

3x DC Furiosos in Harbingers
3x AC/MM OCE Preds
a couple assault squads, one in a Harbinger

Painfully low model count but puts as much AV13 on the table as most AV11/12 spam lists.

With that said, I see a lot of problems:

cheaper Crusader, but nothing to put into it (LC Termies alone won't cut mustard for 1/4-1/3 of your list)

Difficulty combat squadding due to Red Thirst and Ld8

Assault Marines are still pretty damn expensive at 200+specials, and those specials are more expensive. 2 meltas runs 30 points and costs you CC attacks. These guys are 250+ with a PF sergeant, and still die like normal marines to shooting without enough extra 'oomph' to really be dominant in the assault.

Exalted don't get 2 CCW, or Furious Charge, or transport options.

Harbingers are nice, but not dominant with an 18" range.

Vet Assault Marines are still too expensive. 250 before specials, 400 if they take a transport. That's too much investment for 10 basically un-upgraded Vet Sergeants.

The only lists that I'd really consider running, right now, attempt to saturate one target type or another. I'd run either all mech like the AV13 rush list or all jump foot.

Update.....the author of .pdf said he threw that unit in as a joke.

Take of that what you will.

sourclams wrote:The only lists that I'd really consider running, right now, attempt to saturate one target type or another. I'd run either all mech like the AV13 rush list or all jump foot.

I'm thinking Jump Foot, with AV13 as a secondary option. Inq still does the best LR spam.

I'm not overly optimistic about the Jump foot, honestly. There are plenty of lists in the 'good' category that will just shoot you down at 24", and plenty more lists in the 'not good' category that can out-fight assault Marines.

It could work but I think you'll burn so many points on finding enough space for meltas and flamers to really be effective that there won't be enough guys on the field.

As for LR spam, BA look to be an absolutely horrible list for it. "Unlockable" with a 55 pt Tech Priest, for a 200 point Tactical squad. 500+ points invested in a Crusader filled with MEQs.... underwhelming.

sourclams wrote:

As for LR spam, BA look to be an absolutely horrible list for it. "Unlockable" with a 55 pt Tech Priest, for a 200 point Tactical squad. 500+ points invested in a Standard Landraider filled with MEQs.... underwhelming.

There I fixed it for ya.

Assault Squads in Rhinos, decked out with meltas, led by the Astrogath guy (the one that exchanges red thirst for stubborn), looks like a nice CC list. For some reason the term Rhino Rush seems to be coming to mind.

Is it me, or does Mephiston look even meaner now?

I don't know, Ironhide. It doesn't work for Chaos, I don't think it'll work for BA.

I'm actually thinking about the beginnings of a list similar to the core of my IG army - but instead of Melta Vets in a Valk, 5-man VAS w/ 3 or more Infernus Pistols (rather than meltas so as not to drop their assault abilities) loaded up in a Harbinger w/ TL Flamers (which will be considered defensive weapons as they're S4, unlike all the other Harbinger options). So the Harbinger swings in and offloads the VAS. Depending on the type of transport and facing, either the VAS melta the transport or the Harbinger uses the Tantalus - then the other fires on what pops out. VAS then assaults the remnants.

Start off with a couple units of those as core...Not sure what to do about the rest of the army though.

Only problem I have with the Harbinger, is the points cost.

Cant put the genie back in the lamp.. When the vendetta is 130 and can transport, has scout, is fast and is armor 12 Id say the Harbringer's point cost is pretty well balanced for what it can do compared to a vendetta

I agree with Kirasu. The fact that its a dedicated transport is slightly misleading, although, I'm glad it is, as I plan to have a ton of them.

Thinking about the Harbinger as a dedicated transport is futile. It's not something you simply tack on to a squad, like a Rhino or a Drop Pod It has to be given consideration in list building equal to the inclusion of elite, fast attack and heavy support choices. It's combination of fire power, speed and unique tactics make it as important as any choice from those slots.

Except the Harbinger doesn't have the scout USR, and the only units that can assault out of it are jumppack troops. It has deepstrike, but that isn't totally reliable. What if your SH doesn't show up till the last turn? You spend 140 for the SH, plus 200-250 for the assault squad, and it sits in reserve until possibly the last turn. Seems like a waste.

Let's say you deploy it at the start, but don't get the first turn. Your opponent can then focus his heavy weapons on knocking them out.

The scout rule attached to the vendetta/valk is what makes it worth its points.

The Voice over on Warseer (known for the reliability and accuracy of his rumors) hadn't really chimed in much about the leaked codex, but recently posted the following:

The Voice wrote:This doesn't explain how he failed to include any mention of a weapon which is available on several units and has been included in upcoming miniatures, which have been complete for some time and planned long before that.

Blood Angels will have access to Hand Flamers.

Now, a lot of folks over there are taking this to mean that this is confirmation that the whole 'leaked' codex is a hoax. I'm more inclined to lean towards reds8n's interpretation here that:

reds8n wrote:
I think it's partly early stuff, partly collated rumours and a little insider knowledge, and some ..... inventive.... writing.

Also, BramGaunt (another reliable source) over there has reported that one of the BA box sets will be called "Sanguinian Guards". Take of that what you will. Exalted, maybe? Something completely different?

(You can thank me later for sifting through the Warseer thread on this so you didn't have to...)

I've been receptive enough to the leaked codex such that I've been putting some hard thought into some lists based on it, but one little thing that feels suspicious to me is the TL Special Weapons on the Harbinger. Did that ring weird to anyone else but me? I mean, what Imperial Vehicle (other than SM bikes and the Las/Plas Razorback option) has TL non-heavy weapons mounted on it? I mean, if you're going to design a vehicle, why aren't you mounting heavy weapons on it? Again, I'm not saying that this completely discredits everything in the 'leaked' codex - just something that seemed kinda...hinky...to me.

Oh yeah, and I found this there, too:

Death By Monkeys wrote: I mean, what Imperial Vehicle (other than SM bikes and the Las/Plas Razorback option) has TL non-heavy weapons mounted on it? I mean, if you're going to design a vehicle, why aren't you mounting heavy weapons on it? Again, I'm not saying that this completely discredits everything in the 'leaked' codex - just something that seemed kinda...hinky...to me.

Land Raider Crusader and Ironclad Dreadnought ring any bells?

The Voice wrote:This doesn't explain how he failed to include any mention of a weapon which is available on several units and has been included in upcoming miniatures, which have been complete for some time and planned long before that.

Blood Angels will have access to Hand Flamers.

Redemption wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote: I mean, what Imperial Vehicle (other than SM bikes and the Las/Plas Razorback option) has TL non-heavy weapons mounted on it? I mean, if you're going to design a vehicle, why aren't you mounting heavy weapons on it? Again, I'm not saying that this completely discredits everything in the 'leaked' codex - just something that seemed kinda...hinky...to me.

Land Raider Crusader and Ironclad Dreadnought ring any bells?

You're correct about the Hurricane Bolter, but it's not just a single TL non-heavy weapon - it's three fired as one, much like the rumored Tantalus. But you're sidestepping the point - doesn't a single TL-special weapon just seem kinda dinky for something we've been told will use the large flying base (and so, by extension, approximately the size of a Valkyrie)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So like Sisters Seraphim and 2E Assault Marines, dual Hand Flamers will count as a Flamer that AM can buy at regular prices?

I imagine so, but the key point being that it won't affect their ability to get an extra attack in assaults as a regular flamer would.

Death By Monkeys wrote:You're correct about the Hurricane Bolter, but it's not just a single TL non-heavy weapon - it's three fired as one, much like the rumored Tantalus. But you're sidestepping the point - doesn't a single TL-special weapon just seem kinda dinky for something we've been told will use the large flying base (and so, by extension, approximately the size of a Valkyrie)?

There's also the (non twin-linked) Meltagun on the Ironclad. You could also see it as a more expensive Storm Bolter type upgrade, like a small nose turret?

Redemption wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:You're correct about the Hurricane Bolter, but it's not just a single TL non-heavy weapon - it's three fired as one, much like the rumored Tantalus. But you're sidestepping the point - doesn't a single TL-special weapon just seem kinda dinky for something we've been told will use the large flying base (and so, by extension, approximately the size of a Valkyrie)?

There's also the (non twin-linked) Meltagun on the Ironclad. You could also see it as a more expensive Storm Bolter type upgrade, like a small nose turret?

Well, but all the Dreadnought variants have a variety of smaller weapons like storm bolters and meltas - but see, this is part of why I think the Storm Harbinger TL flamer thing is weird: why have a TL flamer, when things like Dreads get heavy flamers?

Redemption wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:You're correct about the Hurricane Bolter, but it's not just a single TL non-heavy weapon - it's three fired as one, much like the rumored Tantalus. But you're sidestepping the point - doesn't a single TL-special weapon just seem kinda dinky for something we've been told will use the large flying base (and so, by extension, approximately the size of a Valkyrie)?

There's also the (non twin-linked) Meltagun on the Ironclad. You could also see it as a more expensive Storm Bolter type upgrade, like a small nose turret?

The single Melta is standard kit on the Furioso, which preceeded the Ironclad.

Green Blow Fly wrote:RED ALERT

I have it from a very trusted source the so called codex floating on the Internet is another hoax.

G

So the Storm Harbinger doesnt exist?

Hard to believe its a hoax considering someone would had to have typed up over 30 pages of unique rules and point values.. That prob would have taken longer than the codex would take to produce!

Also, almost every single leaked codex has been more or less real..

Gut feeling is that it's mostly accurate. Seems like a playtest version which means most things probably won't change. Just minor adjustments. I don't really care as long as i can field a Librarian Dreadnought!!!!!!! This with the new Ven. Kit and ordering a force weapon arm from forgeworld means I've got a new awesome centerpiece!

Fateweaver wrote:Update.....the author of .pdf said he threw that unit in as a joke.

Take of that what you will.

Link?

so since it may be a wish list can i ask for a copy?

Hulksmash wrote:Gut feeling is that it's mostly accurate. Seems like a playtest version which means most things probably won't change. Just minor adjustments. I don't really care as long as i can field a Librarian Dreadnought!!!!!!! This with the new Ven. Kit and ordering a force weapon arm from forgeworld means I've got a new awesome centerpiece!

Well the Librarian Dread has already been confirmed by GW in one of their incoming! newsletters, so that will be in regardless if that PDF is real or not. Whether or not it will actually have a Force Weapon is a different matter though.

It was posted by him over on Warseer in the BA rumor thread. Too lazy to search through 40 some pages to find it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another tidbit....

According to "The Voice" over on Warseer BA's will have access to handflamers.

This Is the Truth.

"The Voice" is as much in the know about things as Brim and a few others are/were so he is a good one to pay attention to.

Great find Death By Monkeys. I love that pic.

If you tell people what they want to hear they will belief.

G

Build it and they will come?

Sure if your friends will let you use house rules.

G

The Blood Angels rumour thread seems to have been completely removed from Warseer. Not sure whether it will be coming back after they've edited it or whether its completely gone.

This usually happens when GW step in and ask them to remove stuff AFAIK. Read into that what you will.

Kirasu wrote:Hard to believe its a hoax considering someone would had to have typed up over 30 pages of unique rules and point values.. That prob would have taken longer than the codex would take to produce!

People do put that sort of work into Fan-dexes.

I understand that, but the second part of my statement was about how much *time* would be spent on it

The chances of this being a fan made dex of this length in such a short time frame is extremely low.. Like I said its MORE probable its close to the real one

Actually the fandex looked like a lot of cut and pasting so it would not have taken that much time with a modern word processor.

We have seen quite a few contradictions in the rumors released so far. The latest one about DC getting free grenades if you take a certain unit just comes across as extremely silly since grenades are now built into just about every type of SM unit. I don't see why DC would be any different.

Also Red Thirst, Rage, Black Rage, Heart Throb and all these special rules for BA are very confusing to say the least and often seem to contradict each other.

G

As long as the Ogryn servitors remain I'll be happy

I think I spy art of the Storm Harbinger in the Space Wolves codex.

Maccwar wrote:The Blood Angels rumour thread seems to have been completely removed from Warseer. Not sure whether it will be coming back after they've edited it or whether its completely gone.

This usually happens when GW step in and ask them to remove stuff AFAIK. Read into that what you will.

They closed the thread because discussion had diverted to the point where there was no additional useful information added. Similar to this thread being V.3, I believe that thread was also at least v2 or v3. Once new info starts coming in again, I'm sure they'll start up a new thread.

The thread is gone. At Warseer, when they close a thread like that, they just lock it. It doesn't go anywhere. But the BA rumor thread is completely gone. That's not standard operating procedure.

heard they got a C&D from GW

Yeah, I saw the closed thread and frankly there's nothing there that hasn't been reposted here. If Warseer's getting a C&D, then Dakka needs one, too. The BA rumor thread isn't completely gone - there are links to it. You may not have the access privileges to see it, but it's still there. I'm not sure why they locked it down like that, but I can guarantee it's not worth the conspiracy theorying about it.

I think it ran it's course.

It became more about wether or not the codex was fake than it did about BA rumors.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm not sure why they locked it down like that, but I can guarantee it's not worth the conspiracy theorying about it.

There's no reason for conspiracy theories. It was a GW official playtest Codex that got leaked in violation of the NDA. As it's GW's IP, they have the full legal right to demand it be taken down as an IP violation.

usernamesareannoying wrote:heard they got a C&D from GW

nope.

I think it ran it's course.

Wise words indeed.

Hand flamers are indeed an option for at least some of the units, I am reasonably certain you'll be able to field them in both metal and plastic flavours, of course given the plethora of other tasty plastic options available to BA players on certain sprues this might well be a tough choice.

BrookM wrote:I think I spy art of the Storm Harbinger in the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah page 5

Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, the DC are expensive, but I'm surprised that no one so far has mentioned that if you're running Tycho as the Martyr of Tempestora you can effectively run 2 DC units.

and "An army that includes Faustio Reo Lemartes can field more than one Death Company unit, but
every unit after the first counts against your Elites allowance. They are no longer Unique."
and DC and up to 15 men and up to 8 PW's at that level!

A new version of the BA rumors thread is back up at Warseer, and interestingly all discussion of the leaked PDF has been explicitly banned.

That's not usual Warseer operations for dealing with supposedly leaked documents. Methinks the GW lawyers are at it again.

FerociousBeast wrote:A new version of the BA rumors thread is back up at Warseer, and interestingly all discussion of the leaked PDF has been explicitly banned.

That's not usual Warseer operations for dealing with supposedly leaked documents. Methinks the GW lawyers are at it again.

Actually, lately, I think it has been usual operations. At one point they were stopping people from guessing at the names of the new Nids prior to the release.

I expect that like most leaks, a good bit of the leaked pdf is correct.

What surprises me is how the design team has again done an about face, and the dexes are becoming rather complicated to navigate with all the special rules and options being added in (unlike dark Angels, the first of the 'new design direction' of GW). Not that I'm complaining

As well, discussing the merits of the leaked codex and not actual rumors to do with BA would obviously be against the forum rules.

Discussing the merits of a leaked BA codex =/= discussing the CONTENT of what could possibly be IN the next codex. Totally unrelated and I can see why the Seer mods don't allow it. The nid 'dex was never a hoax (as much as some people want it to be) and rumors and discussion were fairly open about its contents because they stuck to the topic at hand. Obviously posting the leak or posting exact rules verbatim weren't allowed but just like IG and Orks before them 90% of the codex was known weeks before it went up for preorder.

Part of the reason the original thread closed. The last 12 pages or so was more discussion about the authenticity of the leak and less about the contents of the "fake or real" leak.

Sorry if this is off topic but does anyone know when or approximatlet when they plan to release the new blood angels codex? Ill try and get a headstart building a BA force as I have some SM units floating around my assembly bench


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if this is off topic but does anyone know when or approximatlet when they plan to release the new blood angels codex? Ill try and get a headstart building a BA force as I have some SM units floating around my assembly bench


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if this is off topic but does anyone know when or approximatlet when they plan to release the new blood angels codex? Ill try and get a headstart building a BA force as I have some SM units floating around my assembly bench

April something.

Even GW has not posted an exact date but codeciies are normally released in the first week of the month they are due out (nids being the exception due to a snafu) so if I had to take a stab I'd say April 3rd (could be the 10th though too).

Sorry if this has been discussed, but the presence of the Storm Harbinger seems odd. Presumably it's about the size and cost of a Valk, yet would only be usable by BA. Since GW has gone away from using units in another Codex, it appears that the other flavors of Marines wouldn't be able to field it (outside of APOC or until codexes are updated). Seems like a lot of work for a rather large model only usable by the Red Marines, which are probably less than 20% of all Marines.

Or, is this GW's way of trying to encourage everyone to go out and buy a bunch of assault marines, a handful of landers, and some red spray paint?

dietrich wrote:

Or, is this GW's way of trying to encourage everyone to go out and buy a bunch of assault marines, a handful of landers, and some red spray paint?

If true then this would be my vote. There are several players that will float to the newest "Shiny" toys out there.

johnstewartjohn wrote:

BrookM wrote:I think I spy art of the Storm Harbinger in the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah page 5

Pretty sure that's a thunderhawk. Sorry guys.

It's an awkward angle, but compare it's shape to the other thunderhawks coming in to the right and back of it.

dietrich wrote:Sorry if this has been discussed, but the presence of the Storm Harbinger seems odd. Presumably it's about the size and cost of a Valk, yet would only be usable by BA.

Or, is this GW's way of trying to encourage everyone to go out and buy a bunch of assault marines, a handful of landers, and some red spray paint?

Compare with Baal Pred, Thunderwolf Cavalry (the Space Wolf on a Space Wolf), Thunderfire Cannon, and early LR Crusader. The occasional, temporarily-restricted model doesn't really hurt anybody.

And yes, it's designed to push (and track) BA sales distinct from non-BA sales.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Compare with Baal Pred, Thunderwolf Cavalry (the Space Wolf on a Space Wolf), Thunderfire Cannon, and early LR Crusader. The occasional, temporarily-restricted model doesn't really hurt anybody.

And yes, it's designed to push (and track) BA sales distinct from non-BA sales.

It would be hilarious if they don't make a model for the Harbringer though. Afterall, the 'best' unit in the SW codex didn't get a model. That would be an amusing business trend.

pretre wrote:It would be hilarious if they don't make a model for the Harbringer though. Afterall, the 'best' unit in the SW codex didn't get a model. That would be an amusing business trend.

As someone else said, "GW using logic" is only slightly behind "Don't get into a land war in Asia"........

Yeah GW would only start land wars in russia instead

Kirasu wrote:Yeah GW would only start land wars in russia instead

Luckily they have the inside scoop and know the best time to attack is winter!

pretre wrote:

johnstewartjohn wrote:

BrookM wrote:I think I spy art of the Storm Harbinger in the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah page 5

Pretty sure that's a thunderhawk. Sorry guys.

It's an awkward angle, but compare it's shape to the other thunderhawks coming in to the right and back of it.

The aircraft behind it are definitely the same as the front one, but either they're not Thunderhawks, or there's some interesting artistic licence going on...

Thunderhawks have short wings up front, which the craft pictured are missing. These also have extra engines mounted on their wings, which Thunderhawks don't have.

In case I've missed it, I apologize, BUT... do we still not know who wrote this book? It's only 2 months away... usually we know who is writing a book far in advance.

I have heard the lander/Harbinger is a sure thing and GW will release a model with the new codex. My thinking is they expect it to be extremely popular with lots of sales. Just look at the Trygon/Mawloc and Valkyrie/Vendetta as other examples of a masssive piece of expensive kit that can only be fielded by one particular parent army.

G

Im going to need atleast 5 for the massive army I already have.. Glad they're making a model

If they didn't I'd have some valks painted red so far yer head would spin.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have heard the lander/Harbinger is a sure thing and GW will release a model with the new codex.

If the lander is even in the codex, there's no model in the first wave of releases at least.

These are the plastic sets that will be released together with the codex:

Blood Angels Death Company - 26,00 €
Blood Angels Sanguinian Guard - 26,00 €
Blood Angels Baal Predator - 39,00 €

Either the Death Company or Sanguanian Guard box is something like the Wolf Pack box the Space Wolves got, which contains a sprue (maybe in multiples) which has the following bits:

5x Bolt Pistols
5x Chainswords (1 two-handed)
5x Bolter arm sets
2x Hand Flamers
2x Perdition Pistols
2x Plasma Pistols
1x Power Sword
1x Thunderhammer
1x Powerfist
5x Jump Packs
5x Backpacks
5x Legs
5x Torso backs
5x Torso fronts
8x Heads
20x Shoulder pads
Other small bits

Courtesy of The Voice

Cruentus wrote:

FerociousBeast wrote:A new version of the BA rumors thread is back up at Warseer, and interestingly all discussion of the leaked PDF has been explicitly banned.

That's not usual Warseer operations for dealing with supposedly leaked documents. Methinks the GW lawyers are at it again.

Actually, lately, I think it has been usual operations. At one point they were stopping people from guessing at the names of the new Nids prior to the release.

I expect that like most leaks, a good bit of the leaked pdf is correct.

What surprises me is how the design team has again done an about face, and the dexes are becoming rather complicated to navigate with all the special rules and options being added in (unlike dark Angels, the first of the 'new design direction' of GW). Not that I'm complaining

wow, warseer puts up an explanation specificaly explaining why and people stills start jumping to "ITZ GWS LAWYERZ!!!" (not you cruentus but ferociousbeast)

warseer has to treat it as if it is all true and as such banned people asking for it or about it to avoid IP infringement, gw weren't invovled.


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Redemption wrote:
If the lander is even in the codex, there's no model in the first wave of releases at least.

These are the plastic sets that will be released together with the codex:

Blood Angels Death Company - 26,00 €
Blood Angels Sanguinian Guard - 26,00 €
Blood Angels Baal Predator - 39,00 €

they might not be the only things being released, a member on warseer found them to be being released, no-one ever said "these will be the only plastics sets at release!!!" so dont state as fact when it isn't also when cross-referencing from other forums:

a) make sure you read and FULLY understand what the post said and
b) quote it so that no-one catches you out like i just did.

i have seen too many people geting excited over 'info' that some posted on here, when actually the 'info' wasnt posted correctly and assumed a different form.

Redemption wrote:These are the plastic sets that will be released together with the codex:
Blood Angels Death Company - 26,00 €
Blood Angels Sanguinian Guard - 26,00 €

Either the Death Company or Sanguanian Guard box is something like the Wolf Pack box the Space Wolves got, which contains a sprue (maybe in multiples) which has the following bits:

5x Bolter arm sets

Why is GW wasting sprue space on Bolters? Didn't they learn anything from the BT Crusader upgrade pack that nobody needs more Bolters for a HtH-oriented SM force? Those 10 bitz could have been 5 more head & pad sets, which would have been far more useful to Marine players in general.

pretre wrote:

johnstewartjohn wrote:

BrookM wrote:I think I spy art of the Storm Harbinger in the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah page 5

Pretty sure that's a thunderhawk. Sorry guys.

It's an awkward angle, but compare it's shape to the other thunderhawks coming in to the right and back of it.

Nope. The wings are shorter and lower also there are what appear to be four assault cannons like in the description in earlier threads

Check again.