You could just bring a night lords raptor talon formation and a spawn together with your death guard and, then all the raptors have objective secured. That's allowed right?
They would only get guaranteed nightfight and +1 cover from it (which they won't use cause they're in reserves). But the rest of the army could benefit from nightfight. Could be useful for a mellee oriented army.
Hmm. That could work pretty well with a WE/KDK rushdown. Throw in a flyer and use DFTS, and you've probably got the Raptors coming in on a 2+ on turn 2. WE are pretty good at getting Dimensional Key wet on turn one, enabling some point-blank DS arrival. Could a bunch of Night Lords Sorcerers join the WE units and get carried along with their pregame move, casting Ectomancy movement spells to help ensure the T1 charge?
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. That could work pretty well with a WE/KDK rushdown. Throw in a flyer and use DFTS, and you've probably got the Raptors coming in on a 2+ on turn 2. WE are pretty good at getting Dimensional Key wet on turn one, enabling some point-blank DS arrival. Could a bunch of Night Lords Sorcerers join the WE units and get carried along with their pregame move, casting Ectomancy movement spells to help ensure the T1 charge?
I don't think the WE pregame move confers to non-WE units. Otherwise I'd stick a WE Juggerlord with the Talisman into a blob of KDK Flesh Hounds, perhaps with a KDK Juggerherald just for the lolz.
Edit: I do however believe that the Talisman does confer to any unit the Warlord joins, even a non-WE one, so I still might try a WE Lord with the flesh hounds and see what happens sometime.
Edit: I do however believe that the Talisman does confer to any unit the Warlord joins, even a non-WE one, so I still might try a WE Lord with the flesh hounds and see what happens sometime.
I hadn't though of that, thats a nice litte buff for the hounds. Might even be enough for a first turn charge.
Firstly, what is the general consensus on Forgefiends? Both the autocannon and ectoplasma setups seem decent to me but seem a little overcosted. Daemonforge is what gives them an edge over units like autocannon/heavy bolter Predators but you'll mostly be wounding on a 2+ so the re-roll is a bit underutilised.
The second question is related to the first - how are CSM players dealing with flyers at the moment? Hades autocannon Forgefiends seem like a really decent way of killing flyers and I can't think of much else aside from bringing Heldrakes.
FFs seems to be in a tricky position of being a huge and scary distraction carnifex and yet not that much tougher than a Helbrute and not actually having that much more firepower than Havocs or Oblits or Rapiers. In fact, Rapiers might even be somewhat tougher. Main advantages are mobility and the forge gimmick (which is less useful for wounding but significantly improves their performance against medium armour) and elevated LOS, I suppose. And sometimes Daemon saves them from a cheeky Melta attack.
Flyers? What Flyers? Since I started packing a Hell Talon in my case, I've not seen any in my local meta. It's like putting one of them MiGs with the preposterously overpowered autocannons up against a Lancaster.
The problem I tend to find is that most lists have either no flyers or too many to try to handle. I don't see much in between where they just bring a single vehicle. Far more often than not, at tournaments I see 5-7 flyrants or other FMC's.
You can't make a good balanced list that can handle that as well as the myriad of other popular tournament lists like battle companies, imperial knights, and scat bike spam. The best approach is to learn how to beat them on objectives and deny their movement when they have a lot of flyers.
If you are in the situation of facing only one or two flyers, then I'm a big fan of the fire raptor. I get far more use out of that than I did from my hell talon. If you bring a couple heldrakes you can also get pretty good at using them for AA by having them vector strike.
I've fielded forgefiends in fun games and they've been ok. They're like 70-80 pts overpriced for a competitive game though.
I've been using one with hades and an ectoplasm cannon. Hades is generally more useful. Ectoplasm is just a small blast that can also overheat and only has a 24" shooting distance. But when taken in addition with hades, it's pretty ok. However, once again, the firepower and durability you get only suits fun casual games. It's laughable for competitive play.
Hmm. Lasherfiend has come up elsewhere in a discussion about Space Wolves vs CSM. Specifically, what we can do about Thunderwolf Cavalry.
TWC are horrific. I've had a CSMTac Squad on the second floor of a building fire FIVE volleys into a pack (three shooting phases, two Overwatch) and still get annihilated by their charge.
A squad of Cultists and a squad of Autocannon Havocs would have done much better at holding down the flank, but even then SW have a 2+ save Relic Armour they can give to a character who can tank with 4W, and against Plasma pull up a SS and LOS, so it's going to take the crossfire of two Havoc units to threaten a Deathstar.
Vindicator? It has to get within charge distance to fire on them, and even if they've bunched up together as a target then 2/3 of them will deflect the most powerful medium vehicle ordnance in the Eye with a flipping buckler.
What can we do against this unit? I can't think of anything that can charge them and not be jumping into a woodchipper. And I include anything we can Summon in that. Hell, CTA Allied Genestealers will bounce off. *Maybe* Magnus can prevail. *Maybe*.
Tarpitting seems a far cry. Death Guard will pop at a graze from their Thunder Hammers. A prohibitively expensive Sekhmet Conclave can potentially get a re-rollable 2++, likewise a Lord of Change, but let's face it a critical Blessing is not difficult to take off in the enemy's psychic phase and Grimoire of True Names roulette is really playing the odds.
Except... the Lasherfiend. It is, of course, pretty much Pyrovore tier as a general rule. But what happens if it engages TWC? It'll take four rounds for it to get past SS to ID a single pupper, and it'll probably be brought down before then. But could it hold them in place well enough for a melee unit to do the business?
What about Blight Grenades? Is there an I malediction we can apply to have a high chance of bringing down their WS?
I'm pretty sure the Nurgle and Slaanesh disciplines have maledictions to help you out. I know for a fact Nurgle has a -1T, which makes it significantly easier put them down with any non S7 weapon.
The reason I was wondering about forgefiends is that they would do a decent job against flyers and ground targets - meaning you don't need to engage in the rock paper scissors that is skyfire and flyers.
Without doing the math, I thought double lasherfiends on the charge would win against a 3 man unit of TWC? Roughly the same points cost too.
Other than that you could try fishing for Warp Fate or Death Hex in Sinistrum or for Invisibility. If you get Warp Fate or Invisibility you'll want your own CC deathstar unit though. It is quite sad that CSM is lacking in heavy CC units.
Failing that you could go with a Knight and stomp/D sword them to death.
Yeah, I killed a wolfstar with my full tzeentch war cabal by just fishing for enfeeble and then just spamming doombolts into them. Gets even easier if you can also get the power that cuts their invul save down.
Hi Guys, I need some clarification on how the BAZILLION CSM books interact...
So as far as I can tell, I have;
chapter legions
formations
decurions
So in order to get decurion benefits of X chapter; you must meet the Core + 1Aux requirements? using only the formations detailed in the decurion
Any type of CAD/Allies/unbound can be of a particular chapter; therefore gaining the chapter bonuses(?)
Formations from books outside of traitors legions can still be assigned to a chapter(?)
So an example; I want to build a walker army, I could;
Use a decurion, take a cheap Core and add in the Hellfrog warpack ( i loved the typo so much I kept it); that would give me the chapter and decurion bonuses
Use formations from any book and assign them to a chapter; so I could take a mayhem pack, the helcult, assign them to say alpha legion; and gain just the chapter bonuses for all the formations?
Also I hear something about chapter books coming out? or something along those lines?
All right. They must follow the restrictions, though. So, a hellfrog would probably benefit the most from deathguard taken as part of the dg decurion as the +1 cover outside 18" is the only benefit to vehicles that legions grant iirc.
Any formation, cad or any detachment indeed - even killteam - can benefit from legion rules as long as you follow the restrictions.
koooaei wrote: All right. They must follow the restrictions, though. So, a hellfrog would probably benefit the most from deathguard taken as part of the dg decurion as the +1 cover outside 18" is the only benefit to vehicles that legions grant iirc.
Any formation, cad or any detachment indeed - even killteam - can benefit from legion rules as long as you follow the restrictions.
Awesome ty, yeh almost none of the legions benefit vehicles. The only other real choice I could see would be the alpha legion. As I could run;
Helfrog warpack
mayhem pack
+whatever other walker formations
and I can then do warlord shenanigans, with the many heads rule. But in general im not sure thats all that viable or beneficial; other than being hilarious watching my warlord trait bounce around between helbrutes.
I think what I am looking at then;
Min plague colony (is this cheaper than a min warband?)
Cyclopia cabal (for the ectomancy and powers for flying around terrain etc..)
Helfrog warpack
Daemon Prince - If I can fit him in pointswise, maybe I should either pick the cyclopia or the prince, as if Im aiming 1500 I think both eats up a lot of points.
Mayhem pack or the 5 helbrute one. If I go 5 helbrute one I can stick them in the flying ruins, I can abandon any that get the crazed fire result (if I need to move, AFAIK you can still pick the crazed result even if you abandon and they become their own squadron).
EDIT: Maybe I should grab the min warband instead, for Objsec, the unit of bikes to escort bike/sorc lords. Hmm Relentless is also quite potent I feel. But if I am running plague or warband min, its still gona be a lot of points for getting in those plasma. But the downside being that te decurion benefits only apply to the formations in the decurion, so the mayhem and cyclopia wouldn't benefit. Damn. Maybe I think I just go for the formations stand-alone. As that way I dont worry about all the taxes and I just run some crazy combo of helbrutes, maulerfiends and a cyclopia filled with spawns.
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I might just ask here:
What are peoples thoughts on loadouts for CSM Troops in a Night Lords Warband? Using their traits, Fear for CC, Stealth for camping, I figure Plasma for shooty boys and Flamers on CC boys (saving Melta for fast platforms).
I tend to agree with this. Melta has so many uses. However, it can work well to sprinkle in a little bit of plasma, as it has better range and, when in rapid fire range, more shots. Shooty units are good platforms for plasma, whereas a unit that wants to be in CC should take flamers or meltas (but you knew that). I myself was wondering about how best to make a Night Lords list. Fluffwise the Raptor Talon makes a lot of sense as a core, but having to wait until turn 2 for most of your guys is not a great plan. Maybe run a list with 2 cores (one Warband and one Raptor Talon). Problem I see with that idea is that the points will add up fast.
Min plague colony (is this cheaper than a min warband?)
Cyclopia cabal (for the ectomancy and powers for flying around terrain etc..)
Helfrog warpack
Daemon Prince - If I can fit him in pointswise, maybe I should either pick the cyclopia or the prince, as if Im aiming 1500 I think both eats up a lot of points.
Mayhem pack or the 5 helbrute one. If I go 5 helbrute one I can stick them in the flying ruins, I can abandon any that get the crazed fire result (if I need to move, AFAIK you can still pick the crazed result even if you abandon and they become their own squadron).
EDIT: Maybe I should grab the min warband instead, for Objsec, the unit of bikes to escort bike/sorc lords. Hmm Relentless is also quite potent I feel. But if I am running plague or warband min, its still gona be a lot of points for getting in those plasma. But the downside being that te decurion benefits only apply to the formations in the decurion, so the mayhem and cyclopia wouldn't benefit. Damn. Maybe I think I just go for the formations stand-alone. As that way I dont worry about all the taxes and I just run some crazy combo of helbrutes, maulerfiends and a cyclopia filled with spawns.
Plague colony is indeed cheaper but you lack utility that the warband provides. Don't forget that with all the death guard bonuses, regular mon csm are as durable as plague marines for 6 pts cheaper. Yep, plagues can have 2 specials but an extra plazma or melta on a marine dude is nothing to write home about. Whereas you can have a bunch of relentless havoks that are tough as Nurgle gak. Or bikers tough as Nurgle gak. Or...basically everything is tough as Nurgle gak - even warp talons don't look that bad. I mean they do look like melted poo but they're becoming ok crunch-wise. +1 T and buffed up fnp with re-rolling ones is a game-changer. You're coming dangerously close to necron level of durability. As for elite slots in the warband, yeah, you could run a helbrute but i'd rather just take min termies with combi-plazmas. They're somewhat better even when footslogging.
DP is decent. Increased resilience with free fnp is good and will also help vs perils once in a while. It might be a good idea to pick at least 1-2 mastery levels.
Helfrog hasn't really changed with legions. The best option would probably be to spam maulerfiends and a helbrute alpha for 4++. Or just an extra fiend. It's gona be ok vs some lists and as support for your biker/spawn deathstars. And it's gona fail vs other lists - especially eldar and spess wuffs. Oh, and mage heavy. Technomancy destroys vehicles dead.
Roknar wrote:I dunno about that being a typo ^^
hellfrogs With the upcoming DG release that might make for an interesting conversion project
Ahahaha hmm maybe I could do a nice maulerfiend frog! I keep hearing about this up and coming DG release.... Could anyone expand? Or is that the sum of the info currently? Up and coming. Classic GW speak.
koooaei wrote:
Plague colony is indeed cheaper but you lack utility that the warband provides. Don't forget that with all the death guard bonuses, regular mon csm are as durable as plague marines for 6 pts cheaper. Yep, plagues can have 2 specials but an extra plazma or melta on a marine dude is nothing to write home about. Whereas you can have a bunch of relentless havoks that are tough as Nurgle gak. Or bikers tough as Nurgle gak. Or...basically everything is tough as Nurgle gak - even warp talons don't look that bad. I mean they do look like melted poo but they're becoming ok crunch-wise. +1 T and buffed up fnp with re-rolling ones is a game-changer. You're coming dangerously close to necron level of durability. As for elite slots in the warband, yeah, you could run a helbrute but i'd rather just take min termies with combi-plazmas. They're somewhat better even when footslogging.
DP is decent. Increased resilience with free fnp is good and will also help vs perils once in a while. It might be a good idea to pick at least 1-2 mastery levels.
Helfrog hasn't really changed with legions. The best option would probably be to spam maulerfiends and a helbrute alpha for 4++. Or just an extra fiend. It's gona be ok vs some lists and as support for your biker/spawn deathstars. And it's gona fail vs other lists - especially eldar and spess wuffs. Oh, and mage heavy. Technomancy destroys vehicles dead.
Yeh that's what I thought when I started to look at the warband. It's got decent unit spread and choice, and your not shoe horned into anything too bad. I like the idea of relentless havoc's, bikes are always cool and you dont have to take too many csm troop units.
My only 1 issue is.... Warband = less helbrutes
Gah! It's so annoying. I want walkers that shoot! And sadly most of those this edition just seem a little lack luster. Helbrutes are ok, but forgefiends are what I wanted, and they appear to be rather overcosted. I will magnetise, and hope in the future Ed they get more viable. On another thought? How about kakophoni + Sonic dreads? Ah balls. Sonic dreads wouldn't benefit from the decurion stuff. CURSE YOU GW FOR NEVER INTEGRATING ALL YA SH*T IN THE SAME PLACES!!! Double firing blastmasters with increased strength would have been sweeeeeeeeet.
You can have 3 helbrutes in a warband. They'll get obsec and stealth vs shots coming >18" away cause of dg decurion bonuses. But havoks are significantly more useful point-for-point imo. I've tried out 5 havoks with 4 ac and a rhino. You can easilly go for lazcannons cause of added rhino's mobility they can get around opponent's cover more effectively.
Walkers are still in a tough spot unless you're playing with restrictions - we're waiting for 8-th to see some improvements in this department.
Anywayz, helbrutes have gotten +2 attacks like all the other dreads (except for ork ones cause screw orks) so, leaving them with a fist might be more compelling.
DG Havocs do look amaze, being able to redeploy into a decent LOS point via a Rhino and climb upstairs every turn whilst still firing at full BS is fantastic.
I'm getting a load of CSM infantry painted up to try WB horde. I already have a Palanquin Summoner, who I'm thinking about putting in a Bolter blob with two Flamers and combi-Flamer. Between his Blight Grenades and their Wall of Death, they look like a pretty effective close range firefight/herding unit. I'm thinking about a second blob with Melta and CCW? One thing I'm not sure about it if I should get Fearless Banners or bunch them up a bit with a DA in one of them for Zealot bubble. DA can also take Baleful Icon, which looks incredible for a Fearless firefight unit. This would also enable Marks and their accompanying Banners, though in total this would add a Land Raider to their price...
WE are a lot of fun
Run a maelstrom of gore with favoured of chaos and you have first turn charges. Lots of movement+lots of attacks on turn 1
I recently played against a shoots ultramarine army and got 6 first turn charges, destroying everything after red rain.
I repeat that we are a lot of fun
Automatically Appended Next Post: Running a silly dp with favoured of chaos works.
Lots of boons& hope for that warlord trait
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: World Eaters are definitely a sleeper competitive wise. 2D6 of free movement is just too good.
But is a Maelstrom of Gore better than a Chaos Warband? My instinct tells me no, but at the same time, lots of Berzerkers charging in on turn 1 seems like a barrel of laughs! Also, is Kharn worth getting? I think he'd be fun, but I'm not sure he's all that great for his points.
One problem I see for WE is that a clever opponent can counter that turn 1 charge by deploying at the back of his deployment zone. This is not easy to do with Dawn of War deployment, but Hammer and Anvil would not be good for WE. At all. Also, null deployment armies could be a real problem for much the same reason. I can really see WE being a very rock-paper-scissors army, as they would dominate some armies and builds, but really struggle against others.
Doesn't really mean much. DG and TSons are listed as factions the same way all the special snowflake loyalist chapters are. If anything it makes sense to make each legion and chapter it's own thing at this point and just do away with general marines.
Only reason normal marines exist, is as a stand in for those chapters who haven't gotten their own release yet.
DG and TSons being listed is a good thing. I'm thinking we'll see World Eaters as well and then a generic Chaos Space Marines book/codex equivalent. The CSM book will probably function similar to the current SM book, with Black Legion as the "primary" faction and legion specific tactics for the rest.
Honestly who cares about KDK? It was Codex: Gorepack and Brazen Onslought. Yeah the tithe system was neat but it was basically their way to sell the new Bloodthirster models (which are admittedly still gorgeous)
The sooner we get rid of it, the better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darksider wrote: So one question about kill team, as it seems i can use the legion rules for my kill team.
Which legion is best suited for it. My thoughts are that, Alpha Legion, Black Legion, World Eaters or Death Guard are the best for using in Kill team.
Opinions?
Death guard and Alpha Legion make the best Kill Teams. Alpha Legion gives everyone Infiltrate (that you'd want, anyway), and Death Guard of course is FNP.
Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.
Roknar wrote: Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.
You get to use more models in Kill team and it is considerably easier to learn as it is current 40k.
I missed my chance to get Shadow War which sucks but I like my Power Armor dudes in small games. As far as I know Chaos gives Cultists and then marines right?
Roknar wrote: Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.
Kill Team has the normal 40k Rules, but plays a lot faster and smoother than big 40k Games.
You also can use more different units as in Shadow War Armageddon, but you lack the flexibility to kit out all your dudes differently. You also must buy a squad and no individuals and there is no campaign system or individual leveling system.
In kill team you can use some Mech and also Bikes and in comparison with Shadow War you can have more models if you want.
I will play both, if i get my hands on the new Rulebook for Shadow War =).
@Slayer-Fan-123
Thx for your answer, will go with Alpha Legion as i like them more and i find Infiltrate really good^^.
Hmm, I see. Thanks. Personally I would lean heavily towards shadow war as it offers more for making dedicated conversions and playing a campaign where your band actually evolves.
Roknar wrote: Hmm, I see. Thanks. Personally I would lean heavily towards shadow war as it offers more for making dedicated conversions and playing a campaign where your band actually evolves.
You can convert for Kill Team heavily as well, but you're definitely right on the Campaign system.
How many Power Armor dudes can you take in shadow war?
I didn't manage to get my hands on shadow war in time, but I'mpreordering the rulebook. If it's anything like mordheim is on steam then it's probably around ten, leaning towards less. Not sure how the factions come into play here.
So, having just re-entered 40k, I recently purchased a Death Guard army pretty oblivious to these incoming changes. Getting help from the dakka folk, I made the old csm/termicide/bikers/havoc list with a few fun extras.
I read that no models will be squatted, but then DG is now listed as it's own 'faction' within Chaos. This to me suggests the possibility that, although my army will not be invalidated, but it might be 'kicked out' of Death Guard, and become a DG army.
I haven't played AoS, so I don't know how it works, but I was wondering if people would be able to shed any light on how the army construction works in this respect.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Death guard and Alpha Legion make the best Kill Teams. Alpha Legion gives everyone Infiltrate (that you'd want, anyway), and Death Guard of course is FNP.
This pleases me! Both of these legions are the ones you hear about working far outside the Eye of Terror, with small forces spreading corruption in their own inimitable ways.
Roknar wrote: Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.
They are just 2 different games. SWA is basically necromunda. And csm are in a good spot there. Marines are pretty tough and have high ini and ws/bs coupled with 3+ saves. Cultists are cheap and good for catching bullets and pinning opponents with ranged attacks. And a heavy bolter is super deadly. The trick is finding a good shooting point. But once you find it, a heavy bolter with lazer dot is going to annihilate a lot of things. It is quite expensive though. Autocannon is a bit more reliable - cause it has 4+ ammo rolls instead of 5+ and is s7 but it's only sustained 1 instead of sustained 2.
Well, if you're gona play it, your team would benefit from the gunner greatly. Or even from two. They are very expensive - kinda like 2.5 marines but they do the job. Marks look interesting. I'm only not sure about kark of khorne. +1 attack is good and all but it's really hard to get to cc vs an opponent who's trying to avoid it. Mostly cause of the pinning system - every ranged hit causes the model to fall down - even if it wasn't a wound. And it remaines pinned till the end of it's turn unless there's a friendly non-recruit within 2" - in this case it can take and ini test and try to stand up and act normally. In this regard, slaanesh could even be more effective for a mellee fighter. You stand up more often and don't get a turn wasted - which is a death sentence for elite mellee. It's just that marines are still pretty slow to get to mellee as reliably as harlequins or witches can. Yep, it's harder to actually kill a marine but it's possible to slow him down significantly. Even a bunch of lazguns can be problematic to overcome. And there could be a melta or a heavy flamer nearby.
I don't have much experience though, it might be a bit different - especially when you get access to a terminator. This dudes are so tanky. And as the opponent is forced to shoot at the closest enemy, you could even try to rush forward. But there's still a number of weapons that can hurt a terminator. So, it needs to be seen.
killerpenguin wrote: What do you guys think about the recent news about 8th ed? How do you think it will affect CSM?
I'm not happy about getting Traitor Legions only to have it be invalidated so soon. That said, I think 8th will help some units perform better. I'm thinking Khorne Berzerkers might just be good again, at least if the rumors about charging out of a Rhino are true. Having vehicles be treated more like MC's will help out our Dinobots, too. Who knows, depending on how they point cost everything maybe even Defilers might be playable again. I'm hopeful that GW will deliver on what they said about every model having a place in our armies. If that's true, I think it may be a good time to be a Chaos player.
I suspect Autocannons will get a bump in versatility. They'll almost certainly have some AP, meaning they'll go from being a significant nuisance to MEQ to being a major threat.
In the meantime, and on the subject of our favourite heavy weapon: have any DG players experimented with a Havoc squad in a Rhino with two Autocannons (or Missile Launchers)? As far as I can tell, it could move a steady 6" and blaze away with both a Havoc rack and, erm, Havoc crew. Sort of like a rifle dread with better firepower, and trading a point of AV for a quick getaway mode that can't be denied by a charge.
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?
I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?
I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.
I consider it better than the Murder Sword and the Dimensional Key. I've found it worth taking with Word Bearers as it's slightly more point efficient (and formation-efficient) to give it to my Lord rather than take a second Sorcerer (that, and the 2nd Sorcerer can't be part of the same initial Chaos Warband).
Since buying a ML is 25 pts anyway, it's functionally 20 points for 6 random powers (or less if you roll a telepathy power and want to stick to having Psychic Shriek). Chances are you're taking a Sigil anyway so the Mark of Tzeentch is basically paying Storm Shield costs all over again.
killerpenguin wrote: What do you guys think about the recent news about 8th ed? How do you think it will affect CSM?
I'm not happy about getting Traitor Legions only to have it be invalidated so soon. That said, I think 8th will help some units perform better. I'm thinking Khorne Berzerkers might just be good again, at least if the rumors about charging out of a Rhino are true. Having vehicles be treated more like MC's will help out our Dinobots, too. Who knows, depending on how they point cost everything maybe even Defilers might be playable again. I'm hopeful that GW will deliver on what they said about every model having a place in our armies. If that's true, I think it may be a good time to be a Chaos player.
Let's be honest, we knew 8th edition is coming. Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions were like test marketing for CSMs in the new edition.
I am happy that DG and TS are called out as their own factions on the wh40k.com site, for a few reasons.
1) This probably means DG is getting it's own Codex. Yay!
2) Black Legion - my army - is not on the list. Hopefully, this means they will get their own Codex in a few years, after power creep has set in. Yay!
In general, 8th edition sounds a lot more balanced. when 6th edition came out, the great hope was that the CSM Codex was a sign of things to come, where every army would be constrained to certain norms around power level. Everything I have read makes me think GW is actually trying to do that this time around. If this turns out to be the case, it would be huge for CSMs.
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?
I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.
I consider it better than the Murder Sword and the Dimensional Key. I've found it worth taking with Word Bearers as it's slightly more point efficient (and formation-efficient) to give it to my Lord rather than take a second Sorcerer (that, and the 2nd Sorcerer can't be part of the same initial Chaos Warband).
Since buying a ML is 25 pts anyway, it's functionally 20 points for 6 random powers (or less if you roll a telepathy power and want to stick to having Psychic Shriek). Chances are you're taking a Sigil anyway so the Mark of Tzeentch is basically paying Storm Shield costs all over again.
Dimensional Key is at least useable via Raptor Talon and supporting Terminators. The Scrolls have no way to make themselves better.
The main reason I like the Scrolls? The Chaos FAQ confirms that if you kill a character by *any* non-Sweep means (aka "fry a tac sergeant"), you get a Boon roll. Combine that with Favored Scions from the Chaos Warband, and optionally Nexus of the Gods, and I've had some...hilarious power levels from a Tzeentch Lord (and Nurgle Sorcerer). The funniest thing? If stupid power stacking is your thing, it's theoretically possible to now have a Lord with Strength and Toughness 10, FNP and all the works...More realistically though, having a T5 Obsec Jetbike that can hide in a blob of fearless chaff wins games.
How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?
It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.
MagicJuggler wrote: The main reason I like the Scrolls? The Chaos FAQ confirms that if you kill a character by *any* non-Sweep means (aka "fry a tac sergeant"), you get a Boon roll. Combine that with Favored Scions from the Chaos Warband, and optionally Nexus of the Gods, and I've had some...hilarious power levels from a Tzeentch Lord (and Nurgle Sorcerer). The funniest thing? If stupid power stacking is your thing, it's theoretically possible to now have a Lord with Strength and Toughness 10, FNP and all the works...More realistically though, having a T5 Obsec Jetbike that can hide in a blob of fearless chaff wins games.
lindsay40k wrote: How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?
It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.
You can get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time (which is good, since Tzeentch's Firestorm sucks major). Since the rules for Scrolls turn a non-psyker into a new ML 1 Psyker that immediately generates a new power, the end result is a Psyker that although it has the Mark of Tzeentch, doesn't actually have to roll on the Lore of Tzeentch (which is good because that discipline is extremely wonky in its power viability). The Lord can also take a Spell Familiar (any HQ can take it for some silly reason), and I run an allied detachment of Blue Horrors/a Herald for extra Warp Charge/Daemon utility. I suppose in a pinch, I could shuffle more points around to replace the Malefic Tome on my Sorcerer with the Scripts of Erebus, but I prefer having a wider toolbox over a single turn of random bonus Warp Charge.
saint_red wrote: DG and TSons being listed is a good thing. I'm thinking we'll see World Eaters as well and then a generic Chaos Space Marines book/codex equivalent. The CSM book will probably function similar to the current SM book, with Black Legion as the "primary" faction and legion specific tactics for the rest.
Lady Atia hinted yesterday that we will see a general chaos release. I know that sounds general as they could get a release in 5 years and she would be right though she has a good track record and I got the impression it would be later this year.
Niiice. So the first spell you roll with give you PF. I'd have thought that once you generate the Primaris, it stays with you, even if you add more powers later?
I don't have the rules on hand but I would assume you lose the focus from what I remember. That said, there's only one other character that learns new powers in-game, that being Yvraine.
Other than rolling the first power on Pyromancy or Tzeentch, any of the other Primaris powers have their use; even Smite can be a good "one warp charge leftover" due to the Lord's BS 5, while Prescience is always nice to have. The fact you roll new powers at the start of the turn helps too, since you can then plan any moves accordingly.
The most extreme case I've had was getting Sunburst off against a Dark Eldar player, killing 2 Arena Champs, a Solarite and a Sybarite, and getting to make 8(!) rolls for Chaos Boons.
lindsay40k wrote: How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?
It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.
You can get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time (which is good, since Tzeentch's Firestorm sucks major). Since the rules for Scrolls turn a non-psyker into a new ML 1 Psyker that immediately generates a new power, the end result is a Psyker that although it has the Mark of Tzeentch, doesn't actually have to roll on the Lore of Tzeentch (which is good because that discipline is extremely wonky in its power viability). The Lord can also take a Spell Familiar (any HQ can take it for some silly reason), and I run an allied detachment of Blue Horrors/a Herald for extra Warp Charge/Daemon utility. I suppose in a pinch, I could shuffle more points around to replace the Malefic Tome on my Sorcerer with the Scripts of Erebus, but I prefer having a wider toolbox over a single turn of random bonus Warp Charge.
I don't think you can actually, since IIRC, it specifically stated that CPF replaces the normal psy focus.
I would have thought that if learning a new power fils your Psychic Focus, then a lv2 with Iron Arm and Hallucination who forgets Hallucination will then suddenly learn Smite...
Q: If a Chaos Daemon Psyker generates all of their powers from a single discipline from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, does he benefit from Psychic Focus in addition to Chaos Psychic Focus (as the mandatory primaris power from Chaos Psychic Focus isn’t generated as such)? A: Yes.
This normally doesn't apply to CSM since a Mark means you *must* generate a god-specific power. However, Scrolls change this interaction.
Which legion is the best to fit an army around use of a renegade Imperial Knight? Or better yet, A lord of skulls? I got both and sometimes, I feel the inch to play one of them.
Huh. As I build up CSMs to try in 8ed, I've only just noticed that we can field Gunslinger unit champions with dual Plasma Pistols.
Seems marginal right now with the cost and the risk, especially if you're not in a Slaaneshi squad or DG squad. And no guarantee of it being an option in 8ed, so not much time to test its potential.
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. As I build up CSMs to try in 8ed, I've only just noticed that we can field Gunslinger unit champions with dual Plasma Pistols.
Seems marginal right now with the cost and the risk, especially if you're not in a Slaaneshi squad or DG squad. And no guarantee of it being an option in 8ed, so not much time to test its potential.
From what they've said, pistols will be really good, as they can shoot even if you are in combat, albeit only at the unit you are engaged with. One implication of this is that Cypher will become absolutely disgusting, assuming he keeps all his current rules.
Our shop is having a farewell 7th tournament at the end of the month, and my most painted army is Death Guard, so I'm thinking of running a zombie list.
Now, should all cultists be zombies, or should a few still be "mortal" for runs and shooting?
Black Crusade detachment for a Lost and the Damned core with heldrake and solo spawn.
I could also choose to just run Typhus and 2 blobs of 30, cover board space, and spend remaining points on spawn, drakes, princes, and oblits.
Noob question here
from what i've read it seems to me that if one was to take a Black Crusade Detachement, you could choose each individual formation inside to be from different legion, is that correct?
For example the warband could be an Alpha Legion warband, but the raptor talon could be death guard. This wouldt mix their respective bonus together, but would let you pick and choose the best legion per formation slot?
"Black Legion Speartip detachments are used exclusively by the forces of the Black Legion"
Automatically Appended Next Post: WRT Zombies: if you're taking a DGLatD, instead of Typhus you could go with Poxwalker Hive - you don't need to commit to everyone being zombies if you might need to Run somewhere or use your guns for a couple of turns or go to ground, and regaining D3 casualties per unit is pretty cool. In fact, you can use it like IG orders, infecting a unit that went to ground to make it get back up again. Being allowed to take options for them also means you can throw in a couple of Flamers, adding to their versatility and making them less straightforward to deal with than stuff that starts SaP & gunless.
Black Crusade detachments, different beast, from the Traitors hate supplement.
As they are made up of different formations, you could argue that you could assign different legions... butt i would veer away from that. For a start it means you have to make up what legion the auxiliary choices are, as they aren't part of a formation, which then means you need to declare the detachment as part of a legion, which then means that each formations could be part of a detachment and a formation, and we aren't given rules for dealing with that.
So, I just played a game with a Traitor Legions force, specifically a Night Lords CAD. I decided to run a fairly fluffy army rather than go super competitive, as my friend wanted to learn to play his new Harlequin army. This was my first time facing Harlequins. It was a really fun game, so I'll put a summary of it here.
First, the list I was using:
Spoiler:
Combined Arms Detachment: Night Lords
HQ:
Daemon Prince: Daemon of Tzeentch, Wings, ML3, Gift of Mutation, Spell Familiar, The Stormbolt Plate
Sorcerer: ML3, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Stave, Gift of Mutation
Elites:
Chosen: 5 men, 4x Plasmagun, Combiplasma for Champion, dedicated Chaos Rhino
Troops:
Chaos Space Marines: 10 men, 2x Plasmagun, Bolt Pistol/CCW for Champion, dedicated Chaos Rhino
Chaos Cultists: 10 men, Flamer
Raptors: 5 men, 2x Meltagun, Power Sword and Melta Bombs for Champion
Raptors: 5 men, Flamer, Power Sword for Champion
Fast Attack:
Chaos Bikers: 6 bikes, 2x Meltagun, Combimelta and Gift of Mutation for Champion
Heavy Support:
Havocs: 5 men, 3x Autocannon, 1x Lascannon, Bolt Pistol/CCW for Champion
Total 1500 points
My opponent's list:
Spoiler:
Harlequin Masque Detachment
Elites:
Death Jester
Troops:
Troupe: 8 men, Harlequin's Embrace, Neuro Disruptor and The Laughing God's Eye on Troupe Master (this Troupe Master was the warlord)
Troupe: 8 men, Harlequin's Embrace and Neuro Disruptor on Troupe Master
Troupe: 8 men, Harlequin's Embrace and Neuro Disruptor on Troupe Master
Fast Attack:
Skyweavers: 6 bikes, 6x Zephyrglaive
Skyweavers: 6 bikes, 6x Zephyrglaive
Heavy Support:
Voidweavers: 3 vehicles, 3x Haywire Cannon
Total 1490 points (he had added up the points wrong and thought it was 1500 exactly)
I was at a disadvantage in the fact that we were playing a Kill Points mission (Purge the Alien). He had only 7 separate units, whereas I had 11. I got first turn and he failed to sieze. He deployed his units mostly in a corner, infiltrating the three Troupes thanks to his Warlord Trait. I had deployed my units spread out over my side of the table (we were playing Dawn of War deployment).On my turn, I flew the Daemon Prince into the air and cast Endurance, which went off but got Perils, resulting in an automatic wound on my Prince, who proceeded to fail his grounding test at the end of the phase (but saved that wound thanks to Endurance). Now he was wide open and unable to jink. He also tried to cast Psychic Shriek on a Troupe that was hiding behind the central hill, but could only manage an 8 on 3d6. I moved up the Rhinos with their cargos towards the middle of the table, hugging some terrain for cover. The Sorcerer and the rest of the bikers also moved up the middle toward the large hill in the center, which was tall enough to hide behind. My Cultists were stuck in a forest well away from the opposing units, and had to try to move through cover over the course of the first two turns to get out of there and in the game. The Raptors with the flamer also moved toward the middle. I shot at the unit of Voidweavers with my Havocs, causing one of them to explode and wrecking another despite their cover saves. On his turn, my opponent immobilized the third Voidweaver in a forest. One of his units of Skyweavers tried to kill the Daemon Prince, putting two wounds on him but failing to get the final one. He attempted the same thing with that infiltrated Troupe that escaped the Shriek earlier, but failed to cause any wounds. The other unit of Skyweavers tried to shoot at the Chaos Bikes, but only two of the jetbikes had LOS and no wounds were taken. The Death Jester shot at, but failed to wound, the Havocs. One of the Troupes managed to drop an Autocannon wielder from that squad, though. Nothing else really happened on the first turn. We were using First Strike instead of First Blood, so neither of us scored it. On turn 2 I shuffled my bikes around to get at the Troupe that tried to kill the Prince. My Chaos Marines piled out of their Rhino to try and kill the Troupe that was menacing my Havocs. Their shooting did kill a few of them, but the others got fairly lucky with their saves. My Raptors with the meltas tried to Deep Strike next to the unit of Skyweavers that shot at the Prince, but mishapped off the board and into Ongoing Reserves. The Prince launched into the air, casting Endurance once again but failing to accomplish anything with Shriek. The Sorcerer cast Warp Speed successfully, but my opponent denied his Shriek attempt. The bikers then shot at the Troupe in front of them, killing five of them. That Troupe passed their morale check and stayed put. The Chosen shot at the Skyweavers from their Rhino, killing one but losing one of their own to Gets Hot . The flamer Raptors continued to move along behind the bikes, trying to get into position to attack something on turn 3. The Havocs shot at the third Troupe, killing a couple of guys. In the Assault phase, my bikers and Sorcerer assaulted the survivors of the Troupe they shot at. Thanks to Warp Speed, they killed them all while losing only one of their own. In my opponent's turn, he had one of his Skyweaver units pounce on the Chaos Marines, which they obliterated between shooting and assault (those Zephyrglaives are nasty!). The others charged and nearly wiped the Chaos bike unit, with the Sorcerer barely surviving only because his Warp Speed let him kill one jetbike before it could swing, and he had an extra wound from his Gift of Mutation. The Sorcerer remained locked in combat with the Skyweavers, preventing him from throwing any mind bullets (which is why my opponent chose not to Hit and Run). His immobilized Voidweaver blew the gun off of the CSMs' Rhino, and the three surviving models from the Troupe killed another Havoc. The Death Jester killed yet another. The Havocs failed their morale check and barely stayed on the board (one more inch and they'd have been gone). On turn 3, my Cultists moved up toward the combat between the jetbikes and Sorcerer. The melta Raptors finally landed near the other unit of Skyweavers. The Prince also landed, trying to get into good position for some Shriek action. The Havocs, who were now down to 2 men, regrouped and moved back into the ruins where they had camped out before. In the Psychic phase, I barely got any dice, but I did manage to cast Warp Speed again. I failed to cast Shriek or Endurance with the Prince despite the spell familiar. Shooting wise, two of my Chosen popped up from their Rhino's hatch to shoot at the healthy unit of Skyweavers, but failed to do anything. The melta raptors fired at them as well, but both meltas missed and the pistols caused only one wound, which my opponent saved. The flamer Raptors moved up and gunned down the Death Jester. In the Assault phase, my Cultists charged into the combat with the Sorcerer and Skyweavers, which tipped the balance of that combat. All of the Skyweavers swung at the Sorcerer, and they barely got the one wound they needed, killing him. The cultists dropped two of them in return, causing them to flee combat. On my opponent's turn, his damaged unit of Skyweavers regrouped. The others shot at the Daemon Prince, who made his saves like a boss. They then charged him, getting a single wound with Hammer of Wrath. He rolled a 1, which he rerolled due to being a Daemon of Tzeentch and got another 1, killing him and earning my opponent Slay the Warlord. One of the Troupes charged into the Havocs, killing the last heavy weapon, but the Champion stood strong and actually wounded the Troupe Master in a challenge, resulting in a tied combat with the two remaining Harlies. The other Troupe shot at the flamer Raptors, killing the guy with the flamer, but then failed a 5 inch charge (my opponent forgot about Fleet). On turn 4, my Chosen got out of their vehicle and shot at the large unit of Skyweavers, killing one. The melta Raptors killed another from that squad. The Cultists gamely shot at the two survivors of the unit they killed, but failed to accomplish anything even when they charged them the same turn. The other Raptors shot at and charged the Troupe in front of them. After the exchange of blows, the Raptor Champion was killed but one of the Harlies died as well, resulting in tied combat. The Havoc champ killed the Troupe Master he was facing after surviving combat against all 13 attacks from his opponents. He just could not fail a save. Incidentally, that kill was Slay the Warlord for me! In my opponent's turn, his 2 man unit of Skyweavers finished the Cultists and his other Skyweavers mulched the melta Raptors. The slap fight between the Havoc Champion and the Troupers continued, with no wounds scored. The other fight, between the Raptors and the other Troupe, ended up tied again with one casualty apiece. On turn 5, very little happened other than my Havoc champ ended up killing the last of that Troupe he was fighting, and my Raptors continued to keep the Troupe they fought locked down, even causing them to fail a Fear test. The Skyweavers killed the Chosen. At this point I only had the Raptors and Havoc Champion, and the Chosen's Rhino, alive. The game ended after that, with me having 4 points (3 killpoins and Warlord), and my opponent having 8 (7 killpoints and Warlord). All in all, it was a bloody battle that could have gone either way. My Psychic rolls were hot garbage overall. I have never had much luck with Shriek in the past, and that trend definitely continued. I also failed some critical rolls in other areas, especially the double fail that led to the Prince's demise. I probably could have won that game if a few of those rolls had gone my way. Oh well, it was still a fun game!
My takeaway:
-Night Lords are pretty good, but not top tier. The Fear stuff really never came up except with Raptors, who have Fear anyway. The Stealth bonus was clutch, as the Havocs would have died much earlier without it (and their plucky Champion would have missed his chance to shine). The relic armor that the Prince had never got its chance to shine due to some terrible rolls, but 20 points is a steal for this thing!
-Big units of Harlequin Skyweavers are absolutely terrifying, especially if they all have Zephyrglaives. On the charge, a full unit of 6 has 24 attacks at S5 AP2, and they happen at Initiative 6. The fact that they have two wounds means that they are pretty durable as well unless you can double them out.
-Havocs with Autocannons are awesome! Their range and rate of fire is great! Autocannons are probably the go-to weapon for Havocs.
Still too early to tell imho. We've been fed a lot of propaganda so far that may or may not come true. I'm guessing we will see daemons and csm be true bros again by virtue of sharing the chaos faction keyword. Undivided might make a come back since they made it a thing in SW:A. And Daemon princes could potentially become really really scary with the new character mechanics. Other than that I suspect pretty much what we do now except less gimped.
Taking a sorcerer with the astral grimouir, ahriman and a squad of scarabs (amongs the rest of the list), I can manage to do an odd slingshot manuver.
I deploy these guys as a single squad, optimally with ahriman rolling for 3 infiltrates so I can infiltrate my mini-bomb.
Then, as movement starts, I begin with moving another squad up forward (possibly more scarabs), them take my mini-bomb and start a scatter manuver.
The terminators jump up 12" to threaten a target of choice (or even assault if i did not infiltrate, and the enemy got carelessly too close)
The sorcerer with the astral jumps in a whole other direction, and hides inside a completely different unit that I want to jump with next turn (the first unit I moved up)
Ahriman himself jumps in yet a third direction, preparing to do a psychic nuke on something, and then troobo-boost into safty in the shooting phase.
Will probably work rather damn well on unsuspecting victims that never faced 1ksons before and know just what we are capable of, right?
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
Are you two saying it would be good to have less csm riding juggernauts? I already converted a lord, but if they released a new kit with berzerkers riding juggernauts I'd buy them in a heartbeat. We need more of that gak. Ride me closer, I got skulls to collect and blood to spill!
Nothing against more mounts. I have so many CSMHQ´s that have rarely or never seen the field because a Lord on Juggernaut always seemed like a better option. So I would love to have a reason to field non-riding CSM Lords more.
Oh, sure. Same for princes. I hope our princes benefit from that character protection, that alone would make make khorne and slaanesh more attractive, not that there is any reason to believe they will stay the same.
Actually, is there anything equivalent in AoS? Do you get to choose or did they split up marks into different god specific units like the exalted sorcerer, cuz that would make me sad.
MagicJuggler wrote: I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.
To be fair, it may no longer be necessary.
Necessary is one thing. Fun is another. There's a joy in playing Herohammer and maxing your Power Levels.
Hmm. With Herohammer in mind, are there many units out there that provide a Character-rich target? And what spells are the best to fish for if an opponent presents such low-hanging fruit?
(Also if anyone can confirm or disconfirm the efficaciousness of a Dreadclaw Slaaneshi Plasma Chosen squad)
That's a rather slowed comment given we've seen ONE csm profile (and only a handful in general), of the Rubrics, who are freaking hard to kill. And all thier guns got better, some massively so.
Against single-wound shots, 8th Rubrics equal 7th Scarabs. Tzeentch knows how durable the actual Scarabs are.
I'm really just hoping The Burning Brand doesn't go away. Id hate for my Terminator Lord carrying it to become mildly illegal (I mean YEAH I could use him with a Combi-Flamer but that's no fun).
The only thing I'm willing to bet we'll keep is some form of daemon weapon. We've always kept daemon weapons in some from or another for the last 3 or so dexes.
It'd really be a shame if all the goodies we got in Traitor Legions were just...discarded. Of course, we don't know but what all the relics and stuff from all the armies will be gone forever (I highly doubt it really). At the very least, I hope there are still Legion-specific rules much like Chapter Tactics.
ZergSmasher wrote: It'd really be a shame if all the goodies we got in Traitor Legions were just...discarded. Of course, we don't know but what all the relics and stuff from all the armies will be gone forever (I highly doubt it really). At the very least, I hope there are still Legion-specific rules much like Chapter Tactics.
It's actually more likely to get part of the rule bonuses for free and loose another part. Like your world eaters will always get furious charge but won't get blood crazed or something like that. As for relics, they'll be useful one way or another. It's likely we'll have the influx of more supportive and protective relics rather than killy ones as characters will act differently.
ZergSmasher wrote: It'd really be a shame if all the goodies we got in Traitor Legions were just...discarded. Of course, we don't know but what all the relics and stuff from all the armies will be gone forever (I highly doubt it really). At the very least, I hope there are still Legion-specific rules much like Chapter Tactics.
It's actually more likely to get part of the rule bonuses for free and loose another part. Like your world eaters will always get furious charge but won't get blood crazed or something like that. As for relics, they'll be useful one way or another. It's likely we'll have the influx of more supportive and protective relics rather than killy ones as characters will act differently.
I imagine individual units of WE won't get the rule, but if you only take X Y Z units and no psykers then all units gain the <World Eater> keyword, and then all <World Eater> units get a pre-game move or charge bonus or something else. This is kind of like how AoS does "formations"
VotLW wasn't on the Thousand Son unit shown; instead we got Death to the False Emperor which is most likely what VotLW is now: a generic global rule that makes these marines "chaos". I doubt we'll see a return of +1 leadership or other rules tied directly to this. Everything is going to be Keyword tied.
I imagine it gives a bonus vs units with the imperium keyword. The name of the rule implies it's no longer just versus astartes.
That would also mean that currently Black Legion have nothing unique left though.
I went back to check the profile and I noticed they took a huge hit to their leadership. They used to be LD 10 and now they're only 7 and 8 for the sorc Oo.
They're not fearless either. With our other units having less leadership than they had, that doesn't bode well lol.
Makes me wonder if there will be additional legion rules on top, based on the legion faction keyword that we're not seeing here.
It doesn't seem to me that DttFE would include a leadership buff, but surely neither would being a TSon unit. They would have just included it in the profile I think if that were the case.
So I'm hoping that DttFE is just something like preferred enemy vs imperium rather than the VotLW equiv of "units with the <Legion> keyword and DttFE gain..."
So hopefully they'll just give everything a legion keyword and those get some bonus rules.
However I'm now more curious about how we will deal with Leadership. I'm getting the distinct impression that our leaders typically leading at the forefront in the fluff will be virtually required now in order to confer their probably higher leadership to nearby units.
Or are they expecting us to mix in dark apostles?
Fellow Empyrean Polytheists (or Monolatrists) interested in discussing 8ed Chaos - I'd like to direct your attention to the thread I started for that very purpose; 7ed is still a 'live' game, and will no doubt continue to be played by many after 8ed lands - so a Traitor Legions tactica thread could probably do with staying on topic, I know I for one am still interested in seeing what tricks my WBs can pull off with Daemonology
I wrote a generalized "summons" tactica on reddit earlier. Generally I prefer sticking with Flesh Hounds though Pink Horrors can be good if I have other non-summon powers (read: Psychic Shriek or Curse of the Leper) I want to use later. With Incursion, I generally only bother with Screamers because Skyslash can annoy "Hard to hit" targets (It's my goto for Culexus-hunting), and because the minis were easy to cannibalize from several Burning Chariot kits.
MagicJuggler wrote: I wrote a generalized "summons" tactica on reddit earlier. Generally I prefer sticking with Flesh Hounds though Pink Horrors can be good if I have other non-summon powers (read: Psychic Shriek or Curse of the Leper) I want to use later. With Incursion, I generally only bother with Screamers because Skyslash can annoy "Hard to hit" targets (It's my goto for Culexus-hunting), and because the minis were easy to cannibalize from several Burning Chariot kits.
Most often i summoned daemonettes. Cause they can emidiately run 3+d6 re-rollable. Means they'll emidiately be useful as a bauble wrap. And they chop stuff even if they get charged unlike dogs.
Screamers are also good because they take up little room in your case, nothing worse than filling a tank tray with six Drones & Crushers then not even rolling Incursion >.<
Second on Flesh Hounds, they've been solid for me. I cast Blades of Putrefaction on them and tookout Harald Deathwolf last week!
Flanders are my second favourite, mainly if I've cast Cursed Earth and can precision strike with their three Tenplates. Seekers are OK if you can keep their 5 T3 wounds out of LOS, I've found them handy for tarpit rescue and as a mobile counter-charge unit.
MagicJuggler wrote: I wrote a generalized "summons" tactica on reddit earlier. Generally I prefer sticking with Flesh Hounds though Pink Horrors can be good if I have other non-summon powers (read: Psychic Shriek or Curse of the Leper) I want to use later. With Incursion, I generally only bother with Screamers because Skyslash can annoy "Hard to hit" targets (It's my goto for Culexus-hunting), and because the minis were easy to cannibalize from several Burning Chariot kits.
Most often i summoned daemonettes. Cause they can emidiately run 3+d6 re-rollable. Means they'll emidiately be useful as a bauble wrap. And they chop stuff even if they get charged unlike dogs.
I would use Daemonettes, except for not having the models. Flesh Hounds were easy to proxy with Chaos Hounds.
As long as I could get 2 Summons on the first turn, I felt ok overall as it gave me the means to set up more exclusion zones on the board.
. The flamer Raptors continued to move along behind the bikes, trying to get into position to attack something on turn 3. The Havocs shot at the third Troupe, killing a couple of guys. In the Assault phase, my bikers and Sorcerer assaulted the survivors of the Troupe they shot at. Thanks to Warp Speed, they killed them all while losing only one of their own. In my opponent's turn, he had one of his Skyweaver units pounce on the Chaos Marines, which they obliterated between shooting and assault (those Zephyrglaives are nasty!). The others charged and nearly wiped the Chaos bike unit, with the Sorcerer barely surviving only because his Warp Speed let him kill one jetbike before it could swing, and he had an extra wound from his Gift of Mutation. The Sorcerer remained locked in combat with the Skyweavers, preventing him from throwing any mind bullets (which is why my opponent chose not to Hit and Run). His immobilized Voidweaver blew the gun off of the 