So we get possessed as troops, and if we bunch several squads together around footslogging HQ we get zealot. Carnifexes and haruspexes, beware of our mighty s5 ap3 re-rollable attacks!
3+ conjuration and some warlord traits and relics are nice, though they aren't free FnP reducing incoming damage by a third.
pepsuber wrote: I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance
sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced
CSMs have IA:13 and the Rapier Weapons Battery. An army of Iron Warriors can field a CAD that allows them to take up to 9 Laser Destroyers which are like twin-linked Lascannons with Ordinance that now rerolls. This would be better than the Defiler and any fortification by a mile.
I haven't gone back to look at tanks, but I imagine there is some Vindicator-type thing in there that would be truly awful to face as part of an Iron Warriors force.
pepsuber wrote: I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance
sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced
CSMs have IA:13 and the Rapier Weapons Battery. An army of Iron Warriors can field a CAD that allows them to take up to 9 Laser Destroyers which are like twin-linked Lascannons with Ordinance that now rerolls. This would be better than the Defiler and any fortification by a mile.
I haven't gone back to look at tanks, but I imagine there is some Vindicator-type thing in there that would be truly awful to face as part of an Iron Warriors force.
What rerolls do they get if they are already twin-linked ordnance?
Except the IW's Ordnance Bonus is only for their Meta Detachment, which can't have stuff from IA13 in it.
Even then, the bonus is that Ordance and Barrage weapons can re-roll scatter, so even if you could take Rapier Laser Destroyers in the Detachment they'd get absolutely 0 benefit as they don't roll for scatter and are inherently Twin-Linked to begin with.
koooaei wrote: Emp children can field a decurion of noize marines in a 750 game like no big deal. Will get 3 rhinos and some spawns for lord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, can you confirm that havoc launcher is s5 now? Does it still cost 12 pts?
That same Emperor's Children Decurion can upgrade with IoE and Sonic Blasters for under 1000 points for 4+ FnP and +1 S shots. It's vicious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Except the IW's Ordnance Bonus is only for their Meta Detachment, which can't have stuff from IA13 in it.
Even then, the bonus is that Ordance and Barrage weapons can re-roll scatter, so even if you could take Rapier Laser Destroyers in the Detachment they'd get absolutely 0 benefit as they don't roll for scatter and are inherently Twin-Linked to begin with.
Yeah... look at me flubbing the rules. It's still the best ordinance option for IW even if it's taken as part of an allied CAD. 9 of these things would annihilate most armies.
Thinking about it, any CSM army could take them as an allied formation. You could have Word Bearers outshooting Iron Warriors, for example.
koooaei wrote: Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.
You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.
Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.
koooaei wrote: Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.
You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.
Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.
Yep, i kinda failed 50% 2+ saves i had to make in this game. Don't know about ts termies. They'll end up more expensive and like twice less choppy. The rest of the list will be slower and weaker and you'll have to only rely on magic to get 1-st turn charges whereas khorne termies can do it on an average blood crazed move. Also, 3++ is less of an issue when you have wizards - just didn't use them in a game. Ideally, 2-3 sorcs would solve any durability issues. Also, khornate re-roll charge ranges which is very helpful.
Hard to say without playtesting yet. Grimoire is almost as good as a talisman of burning blood. And Tzeench dudes sure do have easier access to mages. I've seen a list containing nothing but 1200 pt of sorcs and the rest filled with cultists and spawns work in a competitive enviroment quite well. So, i won't pass any judgement about magic armies beforehand.
I want to mix khorne and nurgle sorcerers. The urgle discipline is amazing for khorne. The high strength works wonders with poiseoned and curse of leper gives them much needed durablity while often buffing their attacks into ID territory and d3 wounds for a juggerlord is sweet too.
Even gift of contagion is nice, since every roll debuffs in melee and helps your khorne units survive or ID
I've also thought about bringing in DG to act as a second wave to my WE's first turn charges, but I'm hesitant. It doesn't cost too much to get a sorcerer with cultists in an allied detachment added in. The only thing stopping me is, A) PSYKERS RRREEEEEE, and B) the urge to fill rhinos with plague marines which then leads to the urge to take a death guard detachment which leads to dark, point sinking places of doom. I have a personal grudge against the idea of taking things just to boost other things without them being able to stand on their own, so if I did take DG they would need to be significant / fluffy.
I feel like from a fluff perspective it's pretty easy to justify WE's rampaging through the enemy at high speeds while DG follow behind enjoying the dead bodies and rotting everything in their path. Now you've got me all hot and bothered about how cool it would be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: NOW I'M LOOKING AT A "THE PURGE" DETACHMENT AND MY LIST EXPLODED IN POINTS LOOK WHAT YOU DID ROKNAR!
koooaei wrote: Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.
You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.
Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.
Yep, i kinda failed 50% 2+ saves i had to make in this game. Don't know about ts termies. They'll end up more expensive and like twice less choppy. The rest of the list will be slower and weaker and you'll have to only rely on magic to get 1-st turn charges whereas khorne termies can do it on an average blood crazed move. Also, 3++ is less of an issue when you have wizards - just didn't use them in a game. Ideally, 2-3 sorcs would solve any durability issues. Also, khornate re-roll charge ranges which is very helpful.
Hard to say without playtesting yet. Grimoire is almost as good as a talisman of burning blood. And Tzeench dudes sure do have easier access to mages. I've seen a list containing nothing but 1200 pt of sorcs and the rest filled with cultists and spawns work in a competitive enviroment quite well. So, i won't pass any judgement about magic armies beforehand.
Well MoT is only 2 pts more than MoK. If I give a 8 men termie squad 5 CF/PF and 8 combi-meltas and cast prescience, most things will die regardless of the chaos faction and so with rage is like overkill. And also a guy with Seer bane will kill a WK easily.
Once you get first turn charge and kill whatever unit, your deathstar dies to mass grav and etc next turn. And I just prefer 12" moves over terrain and models much over than a 9" footslog move.
I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?
By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.
Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?
Don't forget that a juggerlord can boost thismovement to 15". And it's basically 2d6 + 9-15 depending on positioning + re-rollable charge with extra 3". That's very fast.
Also, i was using mindveil. It's not stable but should give an average of 8-12 + 3"
Roghrax wrote: I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?
By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.
Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?
If the formation says "This is a Black Legion detachment," you can only use it as Black Legion. There is no such thing as a Death Guard Cyclopia Cabal (barring house rules which typically won't apply).
Turboboosting isn't running and things that apply to running do not apply to boosting.
Roghrax wrote: I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?
By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.
Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?
Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.
Insectum7 wrote: Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.
Thank you! I hope there isn't a similar restriction applied to the Crimson Slaughter formations? I assume those are still fair game for legion rules?
Insectum7 wrote: Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.
Thank you! I hope there isn't a similar restriction applied to the Crimson Slaughter formations? I assume those are still fair game for legion rules?
I think the Legion book requires that all units outside of the Legions book are coming from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and nothing else. I don't have the book, but I think Crimson Slaughter formations are Crimson Slaughter only.
Yes and no, crimson slaughter can't have units with Veterans of the long war and all the legions require that units that can take it, must do so. Plus the benefits generally only apply to units with the VotLW special rule, so there is very little if anything to gain fro Crimson slaughter from the legions book. Bar the psychic powers of course.
Isn't that amazing? At first Crimson SLAUGHTER was better than everyone else, and suddenly this book comes out and makes them useless. Even Iron Warriors got their own Daemonheart!
koooaei wrote: Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.
You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.
Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.
koooaei wrote: Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.
You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.
Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.
Where is the rerollable 3++ coming from?
I have been out of the loop for a bit.
Its reliable as in automatic 3++ with a single blessing. I plan to bring a cyclopia cabal to fish for warp fate to get the re-roll saves tho.
Played my World Eaters against a Gray Knights list. He had something like four units of purifiers, one termie unit in a land raider, two razorbacks, and two dreadknights. I had a butcherhorde with a warband with 2 havoc 4 autocannons units, min CSM with meltas, min termies, and 3 bike units with meltas. Kharn and talisman lord in unit of spawn, juggerlord with AoBF in one unit of bikes, deamon prince glaive.
Everything was going fine, until top of turn two when he cleansing flamed two units of bikers and my deamon prince off the board, then proceeded to shoot my juggerlord to death (who actually died to soul blaze at the start of my turn two). He also cleansing flamed my spawn off the table because I forgot kharns 2+ deny the witch, but with the other loses the game was over. I killed two units of purifiers and he killed 80% of my army, I conceded bottom of turn two. His shooting did nothing but his Cleansing Flame completely wrecked my gak.
I balk at the idea of being forced to take psykers in order to actually make World Eaters work, you know cause psykers rrrreeeee. Still I need something to deal with the Cleansing Flame as that is his ace in the hole and easily won him the game.
You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.
That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.
Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.
koooaei wrote: You need shooting. Purifiers are just expensive marines.
I had two units of havocs with 4 autocannons each. The people casting Cleansing Flame were in Razorbacks and a Land Raider, and it was Turn Two. I had focused my havoc fire on the dreadknights, which seemed like a good idea since the Razorbacks were out of range and the Land Raider was invis. I had all my units in the mid field at bottom of turn one, and top of turn two he just rolled the vehicles up and nova'd. The only defense I can imagine against this would be the Oblit formation, roll them up mid-field, and double tap them on one of the vehicles with the warpsmith. Other than that it's what, more havocs? Ignore the dreadknights and focus on the tanks and Purifiers?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.
That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.
Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.
Karanak would be a nice deterrent, leading one side of the board while Kharn is on the other. I have a ton of Flesh Hounds collecting dust since I stopped playing KDK anyways, could make a nice threat. The problem is fitting them in with a sizable Chaos Warband + Spawn Escorts + Juggerlords + Deamon Prince. There never seems like enough points in 1850 to work it all in.
iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?
Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.
koooaei wrote: iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?
Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.
HEAD DESK
I love my roommate to death but he doesn't know the rules to his army very well, this is the second time something like this has happened. He was casting invis and novas and goin' nuts from inside those vehicles in that game so I'll be glad to let him know it was all illegal.
I looked at the rules and around the interwebs, and it looks like there's nothing stopping Kharn's unit getting 1+ deny the witch except that you still need the correct number of warp dice to deny. This can be a problem in an army with no psykers.
koooaei wrote: You need shooting. Purifiers are just expensive marines.
I had two units of havocs with 4 autocannons each. The people casting Cleansing Flame were in Razorbacks and a Land Raider, and it was Turn Two. I had focused my havoc fire on the dreadknights, which seemed like a good idea since the Razorbacks were out of range and the Land Raider was invis. I had all my units in the mid field at bottom of turn one, and top of turn two he just rolled the vehicles up and nova'd. The only defense I can imagine against this would be the Oblit formation, roll them up mid-field, and double tap them on one of the vehicles with the warpsmith. Other than that it's what, more havocs? Ignore the dreadknights and focus on the tanks and Purifiers?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.
That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.
Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.
Karanak would be a nice deterrent, leading one side of the board while Kharn is on the other. I have a ton of Flesh Hounds collecting dust since I stopped playing KDK anyways, could make a nice threat. The problem is fitting them in with a sizable Chaos Warband + Spawn Escorts + Juggerlords + Deamon Prince. There never seems like enough points in 1850 to work it all in.
That was your primary issue. The Havoc loadout was going to do nothing to the Dreadknight. With your dudes being Fearless, you could easily have tarpitted with different units for the course of several turns. The Havocs should've went after the Rhinos.
Sonic Keyboard wrote: So we get possessed as troops, and if we bunch several squads together around footslogging HQ we get zealot. Carnifexes and haruspexes, beware of our mighty s5 ap3 re-rollable attacks!
3+ conjuration and some warlord traits and relics are nice, though they aren't free FnP reducing incoming damage by a third.
I wouldn't call it free though. Granted, being able to make a 5-man unit Fearless, T5, FNP and Relentless for 15 points is insane, but it adds up across the army when you have to take it on everyone and everything.
With Psychic powers, you're always getting a logarithmic increase in power for linear investment. You need roughly 2.5 WC for each WC of power you wish to cast, so once the initial D6WC are burnt up, each additional point you spend in Psykers means a lower percentage of your Psykers are actually casting (while everyone else is a glorified battery). A Palanquin Summoner is quite useful alongside a Paradox Herald; if you can reliably summon 2 units a turn at 1850 while having an actual functional army behind it, you're doing well.
koooaei wrote: You need shooting. Purifiers are just expensive marines.
I had two units of havocs with 4 autocannons each. The people casting Cleansing Flame were in Razorbacks and a Land Raider, and it was Turn Two. I had focused my havoc fire on the dreadknights, which seemed like a good idea since the Razorbacks were out of range and the Land Raider was invis. I had all my units in the mid field at bottom of turn one, and top of turn two he just rolled the vehicles up and nova'd. The only defense I can imagine against this would be the Oblit formation, roll them up mid-field, and double tap them on one of the vehicles with the warpsmith. Other than that it's what, more havocs? Ignore the dreadknights and focus on the tanks and Purifiers?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.
That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.
Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.
Karanak would be a nice deterrent, leading one side of the board while Kharn is on the other. I have a ton of Flesh Hounds collecting dust since I stopped playing KDK anyways, could make a nice threat. The problem is fitting them in with a sizable Chaos Warband + Spawn Escorts + Juggerlords + Deamon Prince. There never seems like enough points in 1850 to work it all in.
That was your primary issue. The Havoc loadout was going to do nothing to the Dreadknight. With your dudes being Fearless, you could easily have tarpitted with different units for the course of several turns. The Havocs should've went after the Rhinos.
I had one round of shooting before the game was over, the dreadknight was the only thing in range of the havocs, and my opponent used nova powers inside vehicles. I also charged the dreadknight with bikes to hold it down for my deamon prince to get there. I think I had several primary issues.
Sonic Keyboard wrote: So we get possessed as troops, and if we bunch several squads together around footslogging HQ we get zealot. Carnifexes and haruspexes, beware of our mighty s5 ap3 re-rollable attacks!
3+ conjuration and some warlord traits and relics are nice, though they aren't free FnP reducing incoming damage by a third.
I wouldn't call it free though. Granted, being able to make a 5-man unit Fearless, T5, FNP and Relentless for 15 points is insane, but it adds up across the army when you have to take it on everyone and everything.
With Psychic powers, you're always getting a logarithmic increase in power for linear investment. You need roughly 2.5 WC for each WC of power you wish to cast, so once the initial D6WC are burnt up, each additional point you spend in Psykers means a lower percentage of your Psykers are actually casting (while everyone else is a glorified battery). A Palanquin Summoner is quite useful alongside a Paradox Herald; if you can reliably summon 2 units a turn at 1850 while having an actual functional army behind it, you're doing well.
I like the summoning buff and was really excited when I first saw the rule, but those apostle and possessed buffs are almost useless in grand host, and don't do much in a cad either.
Funny, after TS leaks I've thought what WB'll get and only thing I got wrong was crusader being decurion bonus and not legion tactic.
Played my Night Lords under TL for the first time Monday. 1850 vs Orks, so I wasn't playing against a hard army by any stretch.
The fear stacks worked extremely well, since obviously Orks aren't fearless. The Murder talon wrecked a mob of ork bikers with warboss. I didn't really have issues with deep strike, running units of 5 helps prevent mishaps a lot
The stealth rules negated virtually all incoming fire. Not that Orks are crack shots, but 4 units of lootas and two big units of deathkoptas kicked out quite a bit of Dakka. His whole list only managed to put a single wound on an oblit in the first turn.
Forced nightlight automatically gives the dreadclaw a 3+ jink on the first turn, greatly enhancing survivability. I'm now thinking a Kharbydis might actually be worth it.
Night Lords are gonna have a hard time with fearless armies (Damn SMs), but the stealth really helps boost their survivability through the shooting phase which was previously one of my big problems.
Are WECSM units better in units of 5 or units or 10? As units of 5 they seem fine to take mid-field objectives and stick to them, but as units of 10 you get an extra special weapon and are a much larger threat but at that size you could spend points beefing up the champ without feeling too bad about it.
Also a question to all legions: how many Chaos Spawn do you bubble wrap your Lords in? I have been using 5 but the points are killing me so I thought I'd start using 3 instead, but I'm nervous about reducing them so much.
andysonic1 wrote: Are WECSM units better in units of 5 or units or 10? As units of 5 they seem fine to take mid-field objectives and stick to them, but as units of 10 you get an extra special weapon and are a much larger threat but at that size you could spend points beefing up the champ without feeling too bad about it.
Also a question to all legions: how many Chaos Spawn do you bubble wrap your Lords in? I have been using 5 but the points are killing me so I thought I'd start using 3 instead, but I'm nervous about reducing them so much.
Every unit in the game is better off MSU, period. You can make an argument about a large deathstar, but ironically enough the best way to beat any deathstar is to run MSU and ignore it.
andysonic1 wrote: Are WECSM units better in units of 5 or units or 10? As units of 5 they seem fine to take mid-field objectives and stick to them, but as units of 10 you get an extra special weapon and are a much larger threat but at that size you could spend points beefing up the champ without feeling too bad about it.
Also a question to all legions: how many Chaos Spawn do you bubble wrap your Lords in? I have been using 5 but the points are killing me so I thought I'd start using 3 instead, but I'm nervous about reducing them so much.
Every unit in the game is better off MSU, period. You can make an argument about a large deathstar, but ironically enough the best way to beat any deathstar is to run MSU and ignore it.
Not in this specific case. In order to get the same amount of special weapons it ends up costing more to do MSU simply because of the mandatory champion tax. Add in the free move and you can get away with 10 dudes.
Black Legion gets turn 1 Deepstrike.
Deathmarks get pseudo-Interceptor, and you can Deep Strike a unit whenever an enemy unit arrives from DS.
Black Legion and Necrons are Allies of Convenience.
I've drafted up a base for about 1226 points, leaving 624 points left to round it out. Can this work, or how would you make it more efficient?
++Black Legion Speartip++
Turn 1 DS, Crusader & Fear
+Hounds of Abaddon+
Free Marks of Khorne, may run & charge once per game (combine with Crusader!), bonus strength on charge rolls of 8+.
Juggerlord with Sigil and Axe of Blind Fury - 160
5 Berzerkers - 105
5 CSM - 75
5 Raptors w/ 2 Melta - 115
+Terminator Annihilation Force+
"Shoot on DS arrival. HQ gets free Terminator Armor"
Sorcerer with Brand and Spell Familiar - 100
3 Combi-Plasma Terminators - 112
3 Combi-Plasma Terminators - 112
3 Combi-Plasma Terminators - 112
What to do with the remaining 624 points? I imagine if I put points in replacing the CAD with a Decurion, this also means more Deathmarks and a backbone to the alphastrike. But then I also lose some extra flexibility. Maybe I can consolidate the Deathmarks into two larger units, add a Flayed One bodyguard, replace the Immortals with Warriors and replace the Lord with Szeras? Or maybe a Cabal. Decisions decisions.
andysonic1 wrote: Are WECSM units better in units of 5 or units or 10? As units of 5 they seem fine to take mid-field objectives and stick to them, but as units of 10 you get an extra special weapon and are a much larger threat but at that size you could spend points beefing up the champ without feeling too bad about it.
Also a question to all legions: how many Chaos Spawn do you bubble wrap your Lords in? I have been using 5 but the points are killing me so I thought I'd start using 3 instead, but I'm nervous about reducing them so much.
Every unit in the game is better off MSU, period. You can make an argument about a large deathstar, but ironically enough the best way to beat any deathstar is to run MSU and ignore it.
Not in this specific case. In order to get the same amount of special weapons it ends up costing more to do MSU simply because of the mandatory champion tax. Add in the free move and you can get away with 10 dudes.
Anything over is terrible though.
Both very good points. I was on the fence about adding more bikes to my bike units since adding three more bikes is cheaper than adding another unit,, but I realized my WE bikes are not tough they're just face-punchy. Had the same issue with CSM which is why I brought it up. The extra movement does put them in prime position as a second wave to your faster lords and princes, so 10 dudes could be pretty nasty with meltas and a beefed champ.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd be wary about giving much to the champion. Hell I hate paying the regular price for Power Weapons.
Eh, I'm cool with giving a Slaaneshi Bike Champ a Power Lance, especially if you have access to other buffs (free Boons, Drugs, Blessings/etc). You go before Marines, hate them, and ignore their armor, and many such armies don't tool up their squads for melee anyway.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd be wary about giving much to the champion. Hell I hate paying the regular price for Power Weapons.
Eh, I'm cool with giving a Slaaneshi Bike Champ a Power Lance, especially if you have access to other buffs (free Boons, Drugs, Blessings/etc). You go before Marines, hate them, and ignore their armor, and many such armies don't tool up their squads for melee anyway.
For a Biker it makes more sense but I was talking about the regular Champions.
For a Khorne Biker you actually have several good options, as none of the weapons are really bad choices on the charge.
Agreed totally. Foot champs get a Combi-Melta and that's that.
On another note, I'm somewhat amused by the prospects of a WE Cult of Destruction. It's less durable than the DG one, and doesn't get Tank Hunters like the Iron Warrior one, but it gets better deployment options, (Add a Strategic CAD, so Infiltrate and Blood Mad together=point-blank shots) and pseudo-Fleet. A Warpsmith can even suicide himself against a target as 7 S6 attacks can do far more than 6 S5 ones (or 5 S5 if you wanted to do the melta/Combi-Melta double-tap). Plus the Warband Havocs get what is potentially a better form of Scout for getting their autocannons to the right firing position.
MagicJuggler wrote: Agreed totally. Foot champs get a Combi-Melta and that's that.
On another note, I'm somewhat amused by the prospects of a WE Cult of Destruction. It's less durable than the DG one, and doesn't get Tank Hunters like the Iron Warrior one, but it gets better deployment options, (Add a Strategic CAD, so Infiltrate and Blood Mad together=point-blank shots) and pseudo-Fleet. A Warpsmith can even suicide himself against a target as 7 S6 attacks can do far more than 6 S5 ones (or 5 S5 if you wanted to do the melta/Combi-Melta double-tap). Plus the Warband Havocs get what is potentially a better form of Scout for getting their autocannons to the right firing position.
The Obliterators would have Fearless so that helps with their main problem, and it isn't like MoK is a bad choice on them.
MagicJuggler wrote: Agreed totally. Foot champs get a Combi-Melta and that's that.
On another note, I'm somewhat amused by the prospects of a WE Cult of Destruction. It's less durable than the DG one, and doesn't get Tank Hunters like the Iron Warrior one, but it gets better deployment options, (Add a Strategic CAD, so Infiltrate and Blood Mad together=point-blank shots) and pseudo-Fleet. A Warpsmith can even suicide himself against a target as 7 S6 attacks can do far more than 6 S5 ones (or 5 S5 if you wanted to do the melta/Combi-Melta double-tap). Plus the Warband Havocs get what is potentially a better form of Scout for getting their autocannons to the right firing position.
The Obliterators would have Fearless so that helps with their main problem, and it isn't like MoK is a bad choice on them.
Leave the Mutilators at home though.
If Berserkers can turn 1 charge, so can mutilators. I'm more a fan of them now. That being said, bikes and raptors have a much better shot, especially if the 2d6 move is crappy. But they're still suddenly more playable, which is more than I thought I'd be able to say.
Intercessor wrote: mutilators get at initiative chainfists with the formation, something to consider.
I've seen that interpretation of that formation rule hotly debated. Regardless, if you did do something like that and you were able to get all the attacks off, pretty much whatever you're facing would die by the handfuls. But in order to make it super useful you'd need to guarantee a turn one assault, meaning your warp smith needs the talisman, meaning some other unit wouldn't be sped up. I mean if you are so dedicated to the idea that melee = khorne then it works great, but I prefer the double weaponing Oblits to pop transports so other units can charge in. Plus if you give your warp smith burning brand and pop a transport, you can cook everyone who spills out. Good times abound.
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MagicJuggler wrote: Agreed totally. Foot champs get a Combi-Melta and that's that.
On another note, I'm somewhat amused by the prospects of a WE Cult of Destruction. It's less durable than the DG one, and doesn't get Tank Hunters like the Iron Warrior one, but it gets better deployment options, (Add a Strategic CAD, so Infiltrate and Blood Mad together=point-blank shots)
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is something in the CAD giving Infiltrate to the Butcherhorde?
Played against my friend's Gray Knights with my World Eaters again tonight. 1850, he took the same exact list while I changed my list slightly so that Kharn was being escorted by Spawn, a five man termie squad escorting a termie lord with talisman, and Spawn escorting a juggerlord. Two units of bikes instead of three this time.
My 2D6 move was meh, the Deamon Prince shuffled forward two inches while everyone else moved the average. He put everything on the table and didn't deep strike anything which was a bad move. I seized and assaulted one of his Deadknights with my juggerlord, annihilating it. My Deamon Prince, in a display of my amazing general skills, stood out in the open unable to make a charge and got shot to ribbons, doing nothing that game except giving up Kingslayer. Turn One saw both his Deadknights die along with a unit of Purifiers, Turn Two saw the rest of my Chaos Lords die along with multiple Purifier units and one Razorback. Turn Three saw Kharn die to instant death from his assassin unit guy thing. We ended the game top of Turn Four as it was getting late, and it ended in a draw 9 to 9. Honestly if we had continued, his warlord termie unit would have systematically removed my units from the game turns four and five while his Land Raider and Razorback did the same. It was an absolute slaughterhouse.
If my DP had made it into first turn assault things might have turned out differently. I'm also considering some kind of second wave because after the initial headlong rush into the enemy there's not much else behind it to follow up. Maybe Possessed will appear in the battlefield once more, or maybe I need a harder hitting first turn that completely obliterates the enemy, mayhaps with Obliterators themselves. Maybe my DP needs to MAKE HIS FREAKIN CHARGES!
So, i had my fair share of Games with "Traitor Legion's" at this point and, since I'm not a competitive player, had the opportunity to test out
some units & formations i would've never touched because of.. well, reasons. (For disclosure, i used the IA:13 book as well for some matches.)
Right now i tested 3 Armies a lot (World Eaters, Emperors Children & Word Bearers) while only scratching the surface on others and not even
touching one ( because of a lack of Converted models & hating the play-style; Death Guard that is).
--- World Eaters ---
With the World Eaters i tried pretty much any Formation except Trinity of Blood (for obvious reasons) and Terminator Annihilation Force, because
i don't have enough Terminators & i don't really like Terminators. And some actually work quite well while others under-performed in my mind, at
least in comparison to other formations with the same unit type. Outstanding work in all games did my 3 Maulerfiend Helforged Warpack. While
not profiting immensely from being World-Eaters, having the chance to re-roll failed charges is quite neat. A let down was the Favoured of Chaos
Formation - 5 S6 AP3 Shred attacks on the Charge do sound cool, but in comparison to the Crimson Slaughter Possessed, these 'Favoured' feel
like wet tissue paper - i prefer the chance of getting 3++ & Rend more than S6 AP3 - also the Crimson Slaughter Possessed (i know, nobody likes
possessed ) do profit from World Eaters because of the Talisman of Burning Blood (The unit gets the +3" move, what type of unit is not
specified, and unless i'm missing some crucial information that BB's don't profit from Relic's of other BB's), +3" move & Charge range on either
Beasts or 3++ Rending Possessed (and possibly FnP because of one of the CS formations) is quite scary.
The Real MVP's though are the normal CSM's & Bikes in the Warband. Fearless & Free Icon of Wrath (and Hatred when playing against SM) makes
them actually worth it. Quasi-Zerkers with flamers & Melters for less points? Hell yeah! And ObSec fearless Bikes with a 2d6 Bonus Movement to
basically redeploy (in worst cases just to shuffle behind cover, in best cases to get in the middle of the board). Also DP's with the Berzerkers Glaive
are beasts on their own right. Even though it only adds 2 5+ results (FnP & IWND results) it still gives them so much more chance to survive. Other
than that, i think the Relic's are mostly 'meh', aside from the Talisman & the Glaive on a DP that is.
When adding Dreadclaws to the mix though, things get ugly really fast (i.e. Turn 1 ugly). Since 2 Units from the Warband can use Dreadclaw Drop
pods as Dedicated Transports (Chosen & CSM). Footslogging Lord(s) (or Khârn) tagged alongside a retinue of CQC/Flamer/Melter Chosen make
quite a mean bunch. Personally, i didn't put the normal CSM squads in a Dreadclaw since footslogging them over the field with the 2d6 Movement
makes them fast enough, but the Chosen with Khârn & another Talisman Lord did quite well with a Dreadclaw.
--- Emperor's Children ---
When it comes to the Emperor's Children though, it actually gets quite funny when paired with some other stuff. I've tested the Kakophoni-Formation
twice, both times with MSU Noise Marines with Blastmaster & Sonic Blasters. Split fire is genius on these guys, having the ability to hold an objective
while the Blastmaster is shooting stuff on the other side of the board. But nonetheless, it's lackluster because of the gosh-darn Salvo weapons.
Other than that, i tried my luck with a Combination of, once again, Crimson Slaughter (because of love these guys) and Emperor's Children. Although
quite unfluffy, it has some - even though extremely niche - synergy. The Endless Grin gives a -1 Leadership penalty for units within 6", the Heldrake
Terrorpack a -2 Leadership penalty in a 12" bubble (for 3 Drakes) and the Maelstrom of Torment-Warlord Trait of the CS add another -1 Leadership
bubble to that. Probably funny against Eldar (and their Love for Slaanesh ) but funny nonetheless when paired with Terrify & Psychic Shriek. Having
a max of -5 Leadership makes Psychic Shriek devastating against everything - and if the CS-Lord is in CQC and the enemy is not fearless (which,
according to ancient legends can happen) they get a nice -6 Leadership bonus. Once again, its super niche. Personally i think Emperor's Children
are quite a weak bunch - although 4+ FnP on most Icon-bearing units sound fun - it is so damn expensive point-wise.
Personally, i would love to see a Death Guard Army with Dreadclaws since they have Relentless. Deep Striking T1 Havocs / CSM's with heavy's
behind enemy lines and fire everything you got.
.. maulerfiends can already 're roll charges with fleet.
The 4++ sounds good tho. And the fearless warpsmith can go look after some other non fearless unit ..
Automatically Appended Next Post: DG havoks in dreadclaw is not a bad idea.. not dedicated which sucks...
I'm planning on trying out WE Warband Havocs with meltaguns. 10 Havocs with 4 special weapons look good on paper in the butcherhorde. They can't trade their bolters for cc weapons, but it is a pretty versatile unit, enough firepower to threaten stuff, decent on the charge or receiving one. Couple of squads of them instead of taking more then two regular CSM squads.
Looking at it, is there any reason to use Word Bearers that doesn't involve allying in Daemons? It seems like if you want to take Marks, then just bringing Black Legion would be better, and if you don't care about using them, then Alpha Legion and Night Lords are both superior choices by far. It seems like the best use for Word Bearers is to ally in a small detachment of Psykers to spam summoning powers, and bring in a ton of Pink Horrors or greater daemons on turn 1.
I use a Grand Host and a small Ally Detachment of Daemons as my main army as I really like their Warlord Table. I'm using a Warband, as it gives me 2 Obsec Crusaders I can attach to two separate Helcult blobs to run up the field. Were I to shave points, I could add even more Cultists to both units and go full-on horde on my foes.
Waaaghpower wrote: Looking at it, is there any reason to use Word Bearers that doesn't involve allying in Daemons? It seems like if you want to take Marks, then just bringing Black Legion would be better, and if you don't care about using them, then Alpha Legion and Night Lords are both superior choices by far. It seems like the best use for Word Bearers is to ally in a small detachment of Psykers to spam summoning powers, and bring in a ton of Pink Horrors or greater daemons on turn 1.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't exactly what people do to win tournaments? I.e. summoning on a +3 & maybe forcing the enemy to re-roll their charge & not profiting from Furious Charge & Rage sounds
quite nice. If you're able to control the board and what the enemy does, you win games.
Waaaghpower wrote: Looking at it, is there any reason to use Word Bearers that doesn't involve allying in Daemons? It seems like if you want to take Marks, then just bringing Black Legion would be better, and if you don't care about using them, then Alpha Legion and Night Lords are both superior choices by far. It seems like the best use for Word Bearers is to ally in a small detachment of Psykers to spam summoning powers, and bring in a ton of Pink Horrors or greater daemons on turn 1.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't exactly what people do to win tournaments? I.e. summoning on a +3 & maybe forcing the enemy to re-roll their charge & not profiting from Furious Charge & Rage sounds
quite nice. If you're able to control the board and what the enemy does, you win games.
It is, but I'm asking because I want to use Word Bearers by themselves. I don't own any Daemons, and I don't really have much interest in owning them.
Besides, while summoning on a 3+ is nice, they still Perils normally, and if I really wanted to just spam a couple of Psykers for a powerful early-game summoning battery, I could just take two or three Librarius conclaves, and have four or six nearly-autopasses with my summoning. (Assuming I min-max, I could just take two ML1 psykers and a ML2 psyker for 220 points, and have two Summoning rolls that succeed on 2+, with four rolls on the table to get the right powers. If I take two of these and spend a few more points, I could add Tigurius to one and take that one Imperial Fists relic in the other, and have two ML3 psykers with re-rolls summoning on 2+.)
The point is, I don't want to take Word Bearers for summoning-spam, I want to take them because I like their fluff and I want to take just them, but there seems to be no good way to do it.
Yeah Word Bearers are hamstrung. Their bonuses are focused on their HQ choices and unless you're summoning or taking a Dark Apostle you get nothing except free VotLW* and some decent Warlord Traits, so ok Relics and Tactical Objectives that don't actually help you.
Even if you do take the Dark Apostle and run an assault style list benefiting from the Zealot bubble... you are still hamstrung by the fact that Apostles are overpriced and lack mobility options and is stuck footslogging. At that point you might as well run Black Legion, World Eaters or Emperor's Children and get better or on par combat troops, better combat relics and not be hamstrung by the Dark Apostle's speed and cost.
*ok you also get Possessed troops and the ability to roll all your powers on a God Discipline... but those again aren't bonuses you're really going to use.
Everyone keeps talking about Word Bearers like Sorcerers are the only Psyker. Daemon Princes could be used as a battery for summoning as it isn't a bad table for themselves anyway.
Here I go again with the WE vs GK battles. Two fights, one win and one lose. The game I lost was over at the bottom of turn two due to my DP warlord killing himself with the glaive and my other lords and bikes and everything getting cleansing flamed off the table. The game I won, I killed two of his three dreadknights at the top of turn one, he then proceeded to cleansing flame the everloving hell out of me but failed to remove any lords, then killed a lord in close combat (talisman termie lord). He then conceded at the top of turn two because I was going to wipe out every remaining unit on the table (his warlord unit gate of infinity mishaped into reserves).
The more aggressive I make the WE, the stronger they seem to get. Bikes never seem to make their points back for me, but maybe that's because I play on a very ruinless battlefield so they're always taking direct fire to the face. They're also my first wave, and they barely do that well with their meltaguns as most bawkses are behind bodies or too far for turn one fire. They crumble under sustained fire way too much. I guess they pull fire from the lords and DP but they're way too expensive just to do that. IDK maybe I've just been having terrible luck with them lately, in KDK Gorepack they always seemed to do fine.
The problem with using the Daemon Prince as a summoner is that it's incredibly expensive point-wise and the Prince itself is fragile! The cheapest summon prince is going to be 205 points, and that's before you give it Wings or a Spell Familiar! An ML 3 Prince of Nurgle with Wings and ML 3 is 290 points, or 10 points less than Fateweaver! For the same cost as 2 such Daemon Princes, you can easily ally in Omniscient Oracles.
I still prefer the Palanquin Sorcerer, especially in the Grand Host, as you still get 4 wounds (so you don't care so much about mishaps), you can hide in a unit of Cultists, and even with ML 3 and a Familiar, you're still 50 points cheaper than an unupgraded Lord of Change.
I'm also going to test out this Death Guard list. My only fear is Demi-Company, as that is way too many Rhinos or Razorbacks. Otherwise, I'm pretty content with the list construction.
CAD - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist and Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades, Gift Of Mutation, ICHOR BLOOD!!!
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. Chainfist, Brand, MoN, Sigil, Gift Of Mutation, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
So I already figured we cannot win the objective game against most lists for the most part, so I decided to focus more on the newfound durability of Death Guard in the form of the two formations. All that needs to happen is for 4 things on the field to live until T2 (which will happen), and then threats will drop down out of nowhere. It would sorta play how a Black Legion force might, except that Death Guard are better because of Fearless and FNP on everything.
Obviously as a first draft I'd love criticisms or adjustments. The Terminators are probably the weakest part but they aren't exactly a tax in any manner, and having tested a Brand on a Lord in this manner before it can be pretty brutal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To be fair, KDK Bikers in the Pack get a lot more bonuses. However, that 3d6 move is super sweet.
Have you thought about using Raptors instead and just keeping your bikers as KDK in a Pack?
Maybe, Jump Pack's are more World Eatery than Bikes. And a Gorepack with MSU Hounds to soak up the turn one fire is interesting, but expensive. It may also get in the way of my turn one charges if I don't position correctly.
koooaei wrote:Btw, can you confirm that havoc launcher is s5 now? Does it still cost 12 pts?
Havok launchers have always been the same, there have been no changes. Str 5 ap 5 small blast twin linked for 12 points.
koooaei wrote:iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?
Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.
You can certainly cast novas out of a vehicle, witchfires are the only thing you can cast out of a transport. What he couldn't have been doing was casting out of a razorback or land raider since neither of them have fire points like a rhino does.
Kharn's wording is that he and his unit always deny on a 2+. This doesn't mean you get to add modifiers to it since it states that he always denies on a 2+, not that his deny roll is boosted by 4 (from 6+ like everyone else to a 2+). Kharn however is ideal for denying novas since you can pick any unit that was affected by the nova to deny.
As an aside, I really, really hate cleansing flame. 2d6 ignores cover heavy bolter hits in a 9" radius is brutal.
As a second aside, GK units don't really care about perils since as BoP's they simply take a single casualty and keep on trucking which is something you can definately afford to do when you're only 20 odd points a model like purifiers, so the addition of karanak isn't really that great (though handing out scout to something like bloodcrushers is pretty handy, doubly so if you want to DS stuff in off the 'crushers banner).
Edit:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm also going to test out this Death Guard list. My only fear is Demi-Company, as that is way too many Rhinos or Razorbacks. Otherwise, I'm pretty content with the list construction.
CAD - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist and Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades, Gift Of Mutation, ICHOR BLOOD!!!
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. Chainfist, Brand, MoN, Sigil, Gift Of Mutation, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
So I already figured we cannot win the objective game against most lists for the most part, so I decided to focus more on the newfound durability of Death Guard in the form of the two formations. All that needs to happen is for 4 things on the field to live until T2 (which will happen), and then threats will drop down out of nowhere. It would sorta play how a Black Legion force might, except that Death Guard are better because of Fearless and FNP on everything.
Obviously as a first draft I'd love criticisms or adjustments. The Terminators are probably the weakest part but they aren't exactly a tax in any manner, and having tested a Brand on a Lord in this manner before it can be pretty brutal.
I like it but if I may offer one suggestion? Changing the Plague marines to 5x MoN marines with a rhino, 1 melta and a combi on the sarge saves you 40 points a squad. You're probably only going to get 1 shot at melta range anyway and you can only fire 2 guys out the top hatch. Those points could make a nice 3 man nurgle double melta biker escort for your biker lord (or 3x MoN Spawn if that's what you're after).
The main rulebook FaQ update made it so only normal Witchfires can be fired from transports.
Novas, Focused Witchfires and Beams can't now.
"Q: Can you cast blessings, maledictions and nova powers from Open-topped vehicles? A: Transported units can only use witchfire powers – and may not use beam, focussed witchfire or nova powers."
My suggestion of Karanak was more just anti-Psyker in general. Even then the Pruifiers could roll the result that drains Warp Charges or causes them to forget a power (hopefully Cleansing Flame of course).
To be fair, I doubt slayer is expecting those Rhinos to live long, so no need to worry about the limited firing points on a transport. My experience with Melta is, you want lots of it as a single shot weapon. Not sure of the pts efficiency of normal marked marines vs plague marines, except I know the latter gets access to two special weapons at base, rather then 10 marines.
I can't comment too much on list design with chaos, it should do well vs most run of the mill lists, lacks bodies perhaps.
In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
So I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but have people realized that if they take an IW Strongholds of Chaos formation they can take up to 9 munitorum container cashes which each have a chance to get orbital strike, plus build your own castle.
Bryan01 wrote: To be fair, I doubt slayer is expecting those Rhinos to live long, so no need to worry about the limited firing points on a transport. My experience with Melta is, you want lots of it as a single shot weapon. Not sure of the pts efficiency of normal marked marines vs plague marines, except I know the latter gets access to two special weapons at base, rather then 10 marines.
I can't comment too much on list design with chaos, it should do well vs most run of the mill lists, lacks bodies perhaps.
In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
If you want more Bolters, regular Marines are better. If you're just trying to cram in special weapons like I am, Plague Marines are better.
For comparison, the Plague Marine loadout you see in the list is 185 points, whereas 10 Marines doing the same thing is 235. 50 points gives you more bodies, but at the same time it IS 50 extra points that can go elsewhere.
If you could make it a warband they would have objective secured and you'd get the added durability of improved cover saves and FNP for your entire army. The points would have to be played with a bit though. You'd end up with more melta shots if you did both chosen and havocs with melta guns on top of the csm with melta guns.
Edit: I'd probably cut the terminator annihilation force and just take terminator slots in the warband if you want them. You can still bring the terminator lord if you want by adding one of the command slots but you'd have more flexibility in your list and I think I like obj sec terminators more than terminators that shoot their combis in the movement phase instead of the shooting phase. The only place I see that helping a lot is against interceptor.
Drasius wrote: In that case may I suggest replacing the 3rd PM squad with chosen? 180 points gets you 4 meltas, MoN in a rhino and an extra attack.
Chosen definitely win over Plague Marines in that contest, but they aren't troops.
Like lesthanjeff said, you should look into either a warband or a plague colony. You seem to have the models for either.
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Bryan01 wrote: In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
I find my 5 man CSM units are threatening but mostly just there to stick on mid-field objectives and fire a melta off every so often. 10 of them might be more powerful and act as a second wave, and 20 with the talisman just seems unwieldy. The talisman will allow them to get into combat quickly but so many will clog up one side of your board. You need room for your other units as well.
I feel like adding more MSUCSM is better than adding four units of cultists for WE. The cultists aren't fearless, aren't objective secured (in the butcherhorde), and the formation is way too expensive for WE (four units of cultists is way too many, two would be more than enough).
I keep looking at the Aux formations hoping to see something helpful to WE but I keep falling back on boosting the Warband to huge levels because it gives more flexibility. Spawn also rule for WE since they escort your turn one assaulty lords like no tomorrow.
I was thinking 20 men, maximizes the Talisman, you probably stick that unit in the middle during deployment. The cultists get zealot if within six of dark apostle, but that clumps them up. On the other hand, a few 70 point units for sticking on objectives isn't terrible, lacking objective secure sucks though. I haven't played CSM since 3rd ed, so I can't comment too much really.
Over the holidays, I play tested Black Legion and Death Guard lists to understand how they worked on the tabletop.
Played against Eldar in friendly games. Opponent brought a semi-competitive list that included a Farseer, 2 squads of Scatterbikes and 2 Wraithguard squads along with walkers and infantry units, but no big vehicles.
Vs. Black Legion, I brought a deep strike list built around Abaddon, the Bringers of Despair and 2 Cyclopia Cabals. Other units included raptors, terminators, CSMs and bikes. I went second.
The BoD and both Cabals came in on the first turn. Out of 9 squads that could deep strike, only 3 arrived. The Sorcerers got off Shroud of Deceit on the Scatterbikes, which shot each other up, while the BoD took out the Farseer with TL bolters. The next turn, they took a lot of shots.
Lesson learned was to roll for all reserve squads before placing the Warlord. Having to wait to assault is not a great thing when he stands in the middle of the entire enemy army. One good thing is Abaddon is he is still Abaddon and wrecks a lot of things once he does get into cc.
vs. Death Guard, my list consisted of a CL, Plague Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Bikes and a Terminator Annihilation force, playing against the same Eldar list.
The game went 4 rounds before we ended it. Both of us were frustrated because no one was destroying anything. Throughout the game, we missed maybe 30 saving throws total, all from shooting.
Lesson learned: it takes a lot of shots to kill Plague Marines.
Bryan01 wrote: I was thinking 20 men, maximizes the Talisman, you probably stick that unit in the middle during deployment. The cultists get zealot if within six of dark apostle, but that clumps them up. On the other hand, a few 70 point units for sticking on objectives isn't terrible, lacking objective secure sucks though. I haven't played CSM since 3rd ed, so I can't comment too much really.
I've been taking Rhinos with my CSM units and leaving them on objectives while the army surges forward. The Rhinos get objective secured and you do not need to deploy inside them. 35 points with objective secured beats 70 points without it.
True enough, I can see the logic of saving points by taking spawn as the aux and investing into the Warband itself. List kinda looks like a red tide of objective secure marines. Not sure how viable it is though, most WE lists I see, are focusing on fast units and turn one possible assaults.
Bryan01 wrote: True enough, I can see the logic of saving points by taking spawn as the aux and investing into the Warband itself. List kinda looks like a red tide of objective secure marines. Not sure how viable it is though, most WE lists I see, are focusing on fast units and turn one possible assaults.
Turn One assaults are the bread and butter of the World Eaters. It can be pretty devastating and surprising for the enemy as well.
Given CSMs can now take squadrons ala the SM tanks, how would a iron warriors grand company build along these lines work?
Warband with a Chaos Lord (power weapon, Sigil, and flesh metal exo skeleton)
3 10 man CSM sqauds,
1 5 man terminator Squad with 4 combi meltas.
1 Helbrute,
1 3 man Bike Squad.
and a Fist of the Gods deatchment with
Warpsmith,
1 3 man Vindicator squadron
2 Predators.
I've costed it out to be around 1517 or so points, the idea is to make use of the re-roll on ordinance scatter dice in combination with the linebreaker bombardment rule (giving the vindicators squadron when full the option to fire a nasty ignores cover apoclypse tempalte blast) my guess is that it's a trick you'll be able to use ONCE, but IMHO it's one of the more effective ways to use the Iron Warriors ordinance re-roll
To fight against GK with WE you should also add the Collar of Boraghast (don't have the book with me, pardon the name error), that allows you to deny on 4+ AND auto peril for the psyker were you to deny him. GK will think twice before spamming psy powers with this dude around.
How about playing a WE list including a Fist of Khorne? Drop 700 pts in a Kharybdis, 20 blood crazed Zerkers and an Axe of Khorne (Daemonkin formation). Add a World eater Warband with 7 bikers and a Lord on bike or Juggernaut with PF/LC and Talisman of Burning blood for that super fast biker unit, two units of CSM, A winged Demon prince with Gorefather to deal with any knight, a Termicide unit,one unit of Havoc in Rhino with Plasma guns to deal with sneaky Termis that would avoid your Prince or your lord. Pepper with a single Khorne spawn and a Helbrute with Perdus Rift anomaly to reroll your Initiative or force enemy reroll.
The Fist of Khorne is your first wave, crashes in the biggest pack of vehicle you can find, and the the Berzerker can multicharge as much units as is possible / reasonable, effectively blocking a big part of the enemy army, getting them ready for your second wave with bikers and DP.
All the army is basically in the enemy's face by turn 1, two latest. Literally crashing into them before charging everywhere.
That sounds funny to play and could be pretty effective!
I am looking quiet seriously at the fist of khorne/world eaters combo. The only turn off is the price tag on the kharybdis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (And am open to any and all scratch building ideas. I can see a . Big skull... With bio mech additions working....)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had totally missed how good a Prince with gorefather is..
Doesn't get the survivability boost of the bezerker glaive..
To fight against GK with WE you should also add the Collar of Boraghast (don't have the book with me, pardon the name error), that allows you to deny on 4+ AND auto peril for the psyker were you to deny him. GK will think twice before spamming psy powers with this dude around.
How about playing a WE list including a Fist of Khorne? Drop 700 pts in a Kharybdis, 20 blood crazed Zerkers and an Axe of Khorne (Daemonkin formation). Add a World eater Warband with 7 bikers and a Lord on bike or Juggernaut with PF/LC and Talisman of Burning blood for that super fast biker unit, two units of CSM, A winged Demon prince with Gorefather to deal with any knight, a Termicide unit,one unit of Havoc in Rhino with Plasma guns to deal with sneaky Termis that would avoid your Prince or your lord. Pepper with a single Khorne spawn and a Helbrute with Perdus Rift anomaly to reroll your Initiative or force enemy reroll.
The Fist of Khorne is your first wave, crashes in the biggest pack of vehicle you can find, and the the Berzerker can multicharge as much units as is possible / reasonable, effectively blocking a big part of the enemy army, getting them ready for your second wave with bikers and DP.
All the army is basically in the enemy's face by turn 1, two latest. Literally crashing into them before charging everywhere.
That sounds funny to play and could be pretty effective!
I actually have a Fist of Khorne (with the model) and it's...OK. Zerkers aren't tough, so a multicharge takes out a few of them per enemy unit charged, and when they do charge they get a billion AP - attacks that get saved. They don't get the reroll from WE so you have to take an Icon of Wrath, and the Champ is at I4 and must challenge, so your Axe of Khorne may get smashed in the face. You're going to lose a TON of those Zerkers in that multi-charge, and for 700ish points (665 if you take no special weapons and just the icon) you could get a better first wave from WE Bikes/Raptors/Deamon Princes.
Also, it's almost impossible to mishap with the Kharybdis if you're smart about placement. It's usually always going to go exactly where you want it to or nearby as long as you hug an enemy unit (it will move back to where it can be placed off of the unit).
Fluffy? Totally. Worth it for the points? With how fast you can make your army before the game even starts now, probably not.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Do you think it is credible to slingshot WE characters into combat T1 using the fists of khorne?
I used to do that with KDK Juggerlords to hilarious effect. The thing is, with the 2D6 pre-game move, you really don't need a slingshot anymore. You can pretty consistently get into turn one charges with aggressive deployment and a fast escort unit.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Yeah. My concern is if you go second, your aggressive deployment means you get torn apart by shooting.
I mean, that's going to happen to you Kharybdis or not, which is why everyone is now taking a Helbrute with Rift Anomaly instead of Havocs in their Warband to help with that chance (it comes out to be slightly cheaper than shoving a rhino into a unit with the Anomaly). You want to be hyper aggressive to take advantage of the 2D6 free move and hope for the best. WE are absolutely devastating on the turn one charge with the right weight to throw around with Deamon Princes and Juggerlords.
If you're just going to slingshot someone in using the Kharybdis , take a CAD.
I've got a weird infantry horde thing going for MEQ armies, might be because I already have a mechanised army, or just like starring at hordes of marines on the tabletop (before they get blown away in chunks). Is going WE horde mode, with objective secure as more of a focus, then first turn assaulting, just a plain old bad alleyway to go up?
The basic WECSM, in a butcherhorde, has allot going for him, in comparison to even loyalist marines, outside of their battle companies.
I wrote a Death Guard list, which I believe has the tools to be competitive. Very little fat (figuratively speaking. This *is* Nurgle we're talking about!) it's mostly murder.
++Death Guard CAD++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180 [Warlord]
16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106
16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106
++Death Guard Purge Detachment++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Sicaran w/ Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade - 160
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130
++Heralds Anarchic++
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Total: 1850
Havocs and the Sicarans are self-explanatory.
Sorcerers join the Cultists and make them Fearless. They get Summon and Shriek.
Heralds are "solo" Landspeeder-equivalents. They roll on Lore of Change to fish for summoning Chariots or throwing the D. They took Exalted Locus instead of ML 2, because S6 >> S5, especially for hunting Rhinos.
The list gets 12 WC base. Add the bonus D6 Warp Charge, and it's enough for each Herald to get Flickerfire on 3 dice and the Sorcerers to Shriek on 2, or for two summons on 5 dice while absorbing WC loss from Perils.
Mutilators are "backfield" distraction, area denial, or "not worth shooting at" objective cappers. Free FNP and Veterans of the Long War do help out
techsoldaten wrote: Over the holidays, I play tested Black Legion and Death Guard lists to understand how they worked on the tabletop.
Played against Eldar in friendly games. Opponent brought a semi-competitive list that included a Farseer, 2 squads of Scatterbikes and 2 Wraithguard squads along with walkers and infantry units, but no big vehicles.
Vs. Black Legion, I brought a deep strike list built around Abaddon, the Bringers of Despair and 2 Cyclopia Cabals. Other units included raptors, terminators, CSMs and bikes. I went second.
The BoD and both Cabals came in on the first turn. Out of 9 squads that could deep strike, only 3 arrived. The Sorcerers got off Shroud of Deceit on the Scatterbikes, which shot each other up, while the BoD took out the Farseer with TL bolters. The next turn, they took a lot of shots.
Lesson learned was to roll for all reserve squads before placing the Warlord. Having to wait to assault is not a great thing when he stands in the middle of the entire enemy army. One good thing is Abaddon is he is still Abaddon and wrecks a lot of things once he does get into cc.
vs. Death Guard, my list consisted of a CL, Plague Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Bikes and a Terminator Annihilation force, playing against the same Eldar list.
The game went 4 rounds before we ended it. Both of us were frustrated because no one was destroying anything. Throughout the game, we missed maybe 30 saving throws total, all from shooting.
Lesson learned: it takes a lot of shots to kill Plague Marines.
You should probably get a fortification with comms relay. Something like a cad of iron warriors with 2 oblis and a sorc or a 2+ re-rollable dp, a bunker or aegis line with comms relay.
BrianDavion wrote: Given CSMs can now take squadrons ala the SM tanks, how would a iron warriors grand company build along these lines work?
Warband with a Chaos Lord (power weapon, Sigil, and flesh metal exo skeleton)
3 10 man CSM sqauds,
1 5 man terminator Squad with 4 combi meltas.
1 Helbrute,
1 3 man Bike Squad.
and a Fist of the Gods deatchment with
Warpsmith,
1 3 man Vindicator squadron
2 Predators.
I've costed it out to be around 1517 or so points, the idea is to make use of the re-roll on ordinance scatter dice in combination with the linebreaker bombardment rule (giving the vindicators squadron when full the option to fire a nasty ignores cover apoclypse tempalte blast) my guess is that it's a trick you'll be able to use ONCE, but IMHO it's one of the more effective ways to use the Iron Warriors ordinance re-roll
I've had a bit of experience running a list trying to capitalize on the the Fist of the Gods of IW. Here are my thoughts:
Pros:
+ Firing off a Linebreaker Bombardment is just as satisfying as you think it should be. A good shot can wipe out multiple squads and even disable/wreck/explode some vehicles, if you're lucky.
+ Anything you bring besides the tanks has at least one free turn of not being shot by any gun with a chance to hurt Vindi's. Good for other tanks to sweep into position/grab objectives with rhinos
Cons:
- Having First or Second turn both kind of screw you. Best is having second and then seizing (Read: unlikely). If you go first, your opponent only needs to deploy semi-intelligently (keep things out of 30" inch range of Vindi's - 6" move, 24" shot). If Second, they will do everything in their power to disable one Vindi in each squad to prevent the Linebreaker Bombardment from happening.
- For reasons mentioned above, you have to spend a ton of points on Vindi's. Minimum, each needs Demonic Possession and a Combi-Bolter to the give the best chance of firing when in range and you need to field more than one full squadron.
- Even without rerolling scatter, the Large Blasts from the demolisher and the Linebreaker Bombardment have a good/very good chance of hitting what you put them on anyways, which largely makes the IW bonus irrelevant. I hate this more than any other Con.
All of that being said, I have had some success with this style of list ... but it's very "Shock and Awe" in terms of tabletop. Everyone is afraid of what you "could" do and that helps to bring out weaknesses and put your opponent on the defensive. However, a couple good pen's or a list with moderate to heavy Anti-tank and you're left scooting some crippled Vindi's around the table making car/tank noises while your opponent outmaneuvers the slow stuff and gets to giggle every time another Vindi is crippled/wrecked/exploded. I think it is best to forget that IW's have any kind of reroll to Barrage and Ordinance for now. Maybe we'll get access to Basilisks or something next edition or in a campaign book.
I wrote another Purge list. Feth Obsec, blow stuff up.
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Fist and Claw & Sigil of Corruption - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Fist and Claw & Sigil of Corruption - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
Writing up some 1500 points lists for my Nurgle traitor chapter running the Death Guard Rules. This is what I've got so far
Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord Sigil Of Corruption Power Fist MoNvotlw 130 points
You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.
You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.
what what does he need ti justify wanting to do something differant?
You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.
what what does he need ti justify wanting to do something differant?
Because there's no reason behind it. None at all. In the tactics subforum, I expect more rhyme and reason than "I'm honestly sick of biker Lords lol".
I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.
I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.
godardc wrote: I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.
I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.
If its good against AV14, imagine how good it is against AV11, gladius is a common list and IW will wreck gladius
Yea I think Iron Warriors might be getting underrated a bit. Forget the detachment, run a CAD with fortifications, oblits as troops, triple havocs. Possibly a Tzeentch prince with the 2+ armour relic- some bikes to have more bodies to advance with. Use the formations for vehicles like dinobots. The warpsmith might seem like a tax but in this case he's fluffy enough that I'd happily take him
I'd probably rank IW above Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. A similar place to Black Legion and Night Lords. Not sure where World Eaters fit
I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).
The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out
I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.
An iron warrior player finished 4-th in our local 12-man tourney. Not too bad for a guy who plays csm for like the 4-th time.
He had a naked warband with ac havoks, cult of destruction with 2-1-1 oblis and a 2 heldrake formation. He also played his first 3 games thinking that obliterators have heavy stubbers instead of autocannons and none of the twin-linked gear (plazma, melta, flamer). So he only used heavy flamers, laz and multi-meltas.
I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).
The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out
I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.
Out flanking and Infiltrate with special weapon spam is super good. Remember how Cypher made Chosen actually okay to use? It is the same thing without the ATSKNF bonus and having LD10 instead.
Cultists infiltrating is just the icing on the cake.
godardc wrote: I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.
I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.
If its good against AV14, imagine how good it is against AV11, gladius is a common list and IW will wreck gladius
The thing isn't about if you will destroy rhino, it is how many rhino could you destroy each turn, and how many do they have ?
I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).
The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out
I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.
Out flanking and Infiltrate with special weapon spam is super good. Remember how Cypher made Chosen actually okay to use? It is the same thing without the ATSKNF bonus and having LD10 instead.
Cultists infiltrating is just the icing on the cake.
I think they both have situational uses dependant on what your faces. I'd rank IWs ahead in armor heavy meta
In what manner? Alpha Legion will get Melta Guns closer. That's better than Tank Hunters on Lascannons.
If you infiltrate in order to get into melta range, you will get maybe one turn of shooting before getting shredded by mass grav. All the opponent has to do is deploy in a way that you have to be in the open in order to get within 12" range.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Because you can expect 3 Obliterators to live compared to 6 Chosen with Melta Guns and a Rhino?
Oblits with 2+/5++ behind or in cover up 24-48 inches away, or infiltrating anything. Yeah, the Oblits will prolly live a bit longer than what you infiltrate, especially if you serve up meltas that close and don't go first.
In other news: I'm on the fence about keeping my DP with Glaive in my WE list. 260 points total with Gift and all other required upgrades. I could take a Juggerlord with Gorefather and Spawn escort for that much and be just as fast. The DP has Initiative on his side, though, and he's hopping over terrain while ignoring it completely. He's just so big of a fire magnet I find my opponent focusing him asap, meanwhile everything else rolls up unopposed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Because you can expect 3 Obliterators to live compared to 6 Chosen with Melta Guns and a Rhino?
3 Oblits? If I bring a IWCAD, its going to be min of 6 single oblits. They have 48" first round lascannon volley, then they could switch to plasma cannons at 36" or multi-melts, def more cost effective.
Played WE vs Crons, he replaced his Annihilation Barge with the Judicator Battalion thing, two Arks and his CC Warlord unit. I had arguably a terrible list: warband with Kharn, 3 naked termies, 5 bikes with meltas, two units of Havocs with 5 meltas each, two rhinos one with anomaly, two MSUCSM, and a DP and juggerlords and spawn.
He conceded top of turn three. He didn't know Walkers don't get smash and walked his big judicator walker guy into combat where it stayed. I got two turn one charges off, DP and Spawn Juggerlord, and they started destroying everything. I eliminated all his Scarabs turn one as well. Overall he didn't play his list correctly and it wasn't very good (scarabs on the deployment line, wraths going after my bikes, things close enough for my turn one charges to go off), but mine wasn't very good either (havocs did absolutely nothing, termies wiped out turn one after failing their assault move, useless burning brand lord, my deamon weapons wanting to murder me over my enemy). I'm dropping havocs completely for an anomaly helbrute and taking rhinos with the CSM to sit on the backfield objectives. IDK if I want to try to make the CSM any more killy or beef up the bodies or what I want to do with them yet.
And I've been slingshotting Kharn into combat with the Spawn Juggerlord unit. It stretches out enough to hold onto him while keeping two spawn in front to soak up overwatch.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, Stalkers are gak at combat. They have four attacks that basically do nothing. They're a unit that shoots things. Nothing more nothing less.
Model is super bad ass though.
There was a point where he had it crawling over some terrain to assault my lord. It looked awesome, but yeah it couldn't hurt me at all.
I updated my main army after some post-game analysis and other than not having a Disc for my Herald, I feel this is rather solid for Word Bearers armies. It has lots of small assault threats, psychic support, and two largish blobs of Fearless Cultists to bring the pain.
++Word Bearers Grand Host [Primary]++
+Chaos Warband+
Sorcerer of Nurgle on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, Malefic Tome - 190 [Warlord]
Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Lightning Claw/Powerfist, Sigil of Corruption, Scrolls of Magnus and Spell Familiar - 235
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
++Daemon CAD++
Herald of Tzeentch w/ ML 2 Paradox, and Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 120
11 Blue Horrors - 55
Total: 1850
Scrolls are my "fun toy"/utility for my Lord. The Lord joins one Cultist unit, and the Sorcerer joins the other Cultist unit; this grants the Cultists Crusader and Objective Secured.
Previously I had a 2nd Horror unit and a Disc for my Herald. I felt it easier to just summon a Horror unit on turn 1 if needed and call it a day from there for WC generation. I feel that the mix of extra Cultists, Flamers for said Cultist units, and Fists for the Terminator Champs gives me more flexibility overall.
andysonic1 wrote: Played WE vs Crons, he replaced his Annihilation Barge with the Judicator Battalion thing, two Arks and his CC Warlord unit. I had arguably a terrible list: warband with Kharn, 3 naked termies, 5 bikes with meltas, two units of Havocs with 5 meltas each, two rhinos one with anomaly, two MSUCSM, and a DP and juggerlords and spawn.
He conceded top of turn three. He didn't know Walkers don't get smash and walked his big judicator walker guy into combat where it stayed. I got two turn one charges off, DP and Spawn Juggerlord, and they started destroying everything. I eliminated all his Scarabs turn one as well. Overall he didn't play his list correctly and it wasn't very good (scarabs on the deployment line, wraths going after my bikes, things close enough for my turn one charges to go off), but mine wasn't very good either (havocs did absolutely nothing, termies wiped out turn one after failing their assault move, useless burning brand lord, my deamon weapons wanting to murder me over my enemy). I'm dropping havocs completely for an anomaly helbrute and taking rhinos with the CSM to sit on the backfield objectives. IDK if I want to try to make the CSM any more killy or beef up the bodies or what I want to do with them yet.
And I've been slingshotting Kharn into combat with the Spawn Juggerlord unit. It stretches out enough to hold onto him while keeping two spawn in front to soak up overwatch.
I'd not call this csm list bad. Havoks can still be neat with autocannons. Don't forget the helbrute doesn't get a free 2d6 move. So, it's gona be quite slow. Whereas at least some ranged support is really good.
Or you could get 4 flamers and be like burna boyz +1.
Black legion continues to be a pretty exciting option for me. i imagine it may take a while to care AS much about them just because there are so many rabid fans of the fluff bunny versions that have finally after all this time been returned to us.
MagicJuggler wrote: I updated my main army after some post-game analysis and other than not having a Disc for my Herald, I feel this is rather solid for Word Bearers armies. It has lots of small assault threats, psychic support, and two largish blobs of Fearless Cultists to bring the pain.
++Word Bearers Grand Host [Primary]++
+Chaos Warband+
Sorcerer of Nurgle on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, Malefic Tome - 190 [Warlord]
Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Lightning Claw/Powerfist, Aura of Dark Glory, Scrolls of Magnus and Spell Familiar - 235
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
++Daemon CAD++
Herald of Tzeentch w/ ML 2 Paradox, and Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 120
11 Blue Horrors - 55
Total: 1850
Scrolls are my "fun toy"/utility for my Lord. The Lord joins one Cultist unit, and the Sorcerer joins the other Cultist unit; this grants the Cultists Crusader and Objective Secured.
Previously I had a 2nd Horror unit and a Disc for my Herald. I felt it easier to just summon a Horror unit on turn 1 if needed and call it a day from there for WC generation. I feel that the mix of extra Cultists, Flamers for said Cultist units, and Fists for the Terminator Champs gives me more flexibility overall.
Why would you ever put the Power Fists on the Champion of the Terminators? It'll just be challenged out.
Switch it to one of the regular grunts, remove a Cultist and then use those saved points to give the Lord a Sigil because the Aura is hot garbage. Seriously. Unless it is literally the only option for an Invul (so Warpsmith and the units that already have it), there's NO purpose in getting the Aura. Ever.
Jancoran wrote: Black legion continues to be a pretty exciting option for me. i imagine it may take a while to care AS much about them just because there are so many rabid fans of the fluff bunny versions that have finally after all this time been returned to us.
Someone suggested using the Speartip detachment with an Iron Warriors CAD that consists of a CL, 2 Obliterators, and a fortification with comms-relay to improve chances to arrive the first turn.
Yes... yes...
Let's talk about Skyfire nexus. Does a model with this rule get to shoot at anything arriving from reserve, or just one per turn?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, Stalkers are gak at combat. They have four attacks that basically do nothing. They're a unit that shoots things. Nothing more nothing less.
Model is super bad ass though.
There was a point where he had it crawling over some terrain to assault my lord. It looked awesome, but yeah it couldn't hurt me at all.
Yeah. It has MTC by default, which is nice, but that's about it. If it had AP2 on its attacks or maybe even one more gun it might be worth its points. As it stands it is more a tax for things.
MagicJuggler wrote: I updated my main army after some post-game analysis and other than not having a Disc for my Herald, I feel this is rather solid for Word Bearers armies. It has lots of small assault threats, psychic support, and two largish blobs of Fearless Cultists to bring the pain.
++Word Bearers Grand Host [Primary]++
+Chaos Warband+
Sorcerer of Nurgle on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, Malefic Tome - 190 [Warlord]
Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Lightning Claw/Powerfist, Aura of Dark Glory, Scrolls of Magnus and Spell Familiar - 235
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
++Daemon CAD++
Herald of Tzeentch w/ ML 2 Paradox, and Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 120
11 Blue Horrors - 55
Total: 1850
Scrolls are my "fun toy"/utility for my Lord. The Lord joins one Cultist unit, and the Sorcerer joins the other Cultist unit; this grants the Cultists Crusader and Objective Secured.
Previously I had a 2nd Horror unit and a Disc for my Herald. I felt it easier to just summon a Horror unit on turn 1 if needed and call it a day from there for WC generation. I feel that the mix of extra Cultists, Flamers for said Cultist units, and Fists for the Terminator Champs gives me more flexibility overall.
Why would you ever put the Power Fists on the Champion of the Terminators? It'll just be challenged out.
Switch it to one of the regular grunts, remove a Cultist and then use those saved points to give the Lord a Sigil because the Aura is hot garbage. Seriously. Unless it is literally the only option for an Invul (so Warpsmith and the units that already have it), there's NO purpose in getting the Aura. Ever.
That was a mistake. He already had a Sigil, I just wrote it down wrong. Oops!
I'm more worried about the Fist being shot out rather than challenged out. It's more for punching backfield vehicles or threatening monsters more than anything else.
Jancoran wrote: Black legion continues to be a pretty exciting option for me. i imagine it may take a while to care AS much about them just because there are so many rabid fans of the fluff bunny versions that have finally after all this time been returned to us.
Someone suggested using the Speartip detachment with an Iron Warriors CAD that consists of a CL, 2 Obliterators, and a fortification with comms-relay to improve chances to arrive the first turn.
Yes... yes...
Let's talk about Skyfire nexus. Does a model with this rule get to shoot at anything arriving from reserve, or just one per turn?
Skyfire Nexus is skyfire, not interceptor. Anyone controlling it gains the rule.
MagicJuggler wrote: I updated my main army after some post-game analysis and other than not having a Disc for my Herald, I feel this is rather solid for Word Bearers armies. It has lots of small assault threats, psychic support, and two largish blobs of Fearless Cultists to bring the pain.
++Word Bearers Grand Host [Primary]++
+Chaos Warband+
Sorcerer of Nurgle on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, Malefic Tome - 190 [Warlord]
Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Lightning Claw/Powerfist, Aura of Dark Glory, Scrolls of Magnus and Spell Familiar - 235
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 CSM, 4 extra CCW, Meltagun and Combi-Melta Champ - 103
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Terminators w/ Combi-Plasma and Power Axe, Champ has Power Fist - 122
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
3 Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns and Champ w/ Lance - 111
++Daemon CAD++
Herald of Tzeentch w/ ML 2 Paradox, and Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 120
11 Blue Horrors - 55
Total: 1850
Scrolls are my "fun toy"/utility for my Lord. The Lord joins one Cultist unit, and the Sorcerer joins the other Cultist unit; this grants the Cultists Crusader and Objective Secured.
Previously I had a 2nd Horror unit and a Disc for my Herald. I felt it easier to just summon a Horror unit on turn 1 if needed and call it a day from there for WC generation. I feel that the mix of extra Cultists, Flamers for said Cultist units, and Fists for the Terminator Champs gives me more flexibility overall.
Why would you ever put the Power Fists on the Champion of the Terminators? It'll just be challenged out.
Switch it to one of the regular grunts, remove a Cultist and then use those saved points to give the Lord a Sigil because the Aura is hot garbage. Seriously. Unless it is literally the only option for an Invul (so Warpsmith and the units that already have it), there's NO purpose in getting the Aura. Ever.
That was a mistake. He already had a Sigil, I just wrote it down wrong. Oops!
I'm more worried about the Fist being shot out rather than challenged out. It's more for punching backfield vehicles or threatening monsters more than anything else.
The group of Terminators is going to die anyway. Expecting them to even live to use the Fist is asking too much.
Saving the points will go a long way. Doing that to both squads nets you a 5 point upgrade elsewhere.
Also I'd only use a Fist at 4 dudes in the suicide squad but that'd just me.
I don't think fists on the terminator champions is a big deal. It's 3 points more expensive than the regular guys, and 6 for both units. If he really needs points for something he could take a couple of cultists away
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Tome. In practice, Summon, a Nurgle support power and either Shriek, Dark Flame, or Plague Wind are enough all-around flexibility for me. One Witchfire, one Blessing/Malediction, and one Summon.
Two units of 2 Spawn lets me spread a wider net/threaten to wreck two metal boxes. And I get two units of two for less than one Maulerfiend.
Eldarain wrote: Because the Terminator formation shoots in the movement phase does it become one of our best answers to Knights?
In what manner? With Raptors you can shoot off 2-3 Melta shots and assault with a Melta Bomb.
You fire before they orient their shield.
Depends if you're just planning to HP strip it to death. Without DS protection, the best bet is Combi-Plasma, and with 4 dudes landing in RF range that's maybe 2 HP removed? If you went fluffbunny and grabbed an Autocannon to fire twice, you will remove one HP. So that's 3 HP total?
andysonic1 wrote: Played WE vs Crons, he replaced his Annihilation Barge with the Judicator Battalion thing, two Arks and his CC Warlord unit. I had arguably a terrible list: warband with Kharn, 3 naked termies, 5 bikes with meltas, two units of Havocs with 5 meltas each, two rhinos one with anomaly, two MSUCSM, and a DP and juggerlords and spawn.
He conceded top of turn three. He didn't know Walkers don't get smash and walked his big judicator walker guy into combat where it stayed. I got two turn one charges off, DP and Spawn Juggerlord, and they started destroying everything. I eliminated all his Scarabs turn one as well. Overall he didn't play his list correctly and it wasn't very good (scarabs on the deployment line, wraths going after my bikes, things close enough for my turn one charges to go off), but mine wasn't very good either (havocs did absolutely nothing, termies wiped out turn one after failing their assault move, useless burning brand lord, my deamon weapons wanting to murder me over my enemy). I'm dropping havocs completely for an anomaly helbrute and taking rhinos with the CSM to sit on the backfield objectives. IDK if I want to try to make the CSM any more killy or beef up the bodies or what I want to do with them yet.
And I've been slingshotting Kharn into combat with the Spawn Juggerlord unit. It stretches out enough to hold onto him while keeping two spawn in front to soak up overwatch.
I'd not call this csm list bad. Havoks can still be neat with autocannons. Don't forget the helbrute doesn't get a free 2d6 move. So, it's gona be quite slow. Whereas at least some ranged support is really good.
Or you could get 4 flamers and be like burna boyz +1.
Havocs are cool and all, but they end up either not having targets due to everything being in close combat, or they can't hurt whatever they can target, or they whiff. I feel like just leaning more heavily on the CQC combat as opposed to adding any ranged help.
Are you able to use the tormented formation in the speartip decurion? They are listed as a black legion detachment but not under the speartip, was this FAQ'd or a mistake on GW's part?
Solosam47 wrote: Are you able to use the tormented formation in the speartip decurion? They are listed as a black legion detachment but not under the speartip, was this FAQ'd or a mistake on GW's part?
Probably a mistake. You should message them about it to make sure it gets FAQd
Solosam47 wrote: Are you able to use the tormented formation in the speartip decurion? They are listed as a black legion detachment but not under the speartip, was this FAQ'd or a mistake on GW's part?
Probably a mistake. You should message them about it to make sure it gets FAQd
Yea and ask em why we got screwed out of a chaos warband formation for that craptastic black legion warband. Im still bitter about this.
I see people considering a second wave with world eaters. What about taking a World Eater Warband with a couple of spawn and then a Black Legion hounds of abaddon formation with some spawn.
You get the best of both worlds. Hound units hit pretty hard for what they cost given all the discounts. While WE can re-deploy and catch objectives.
Turn one, WE try to run up the board for T1 assaults and objectives in your opponents deployment zone. Spawn can eat overwatch.
Turn two BL marines run and charge into units that are harder to shift or finish off units the WE are struggling with.
The hounds also let you take raptors that give you the option to deepstrike T1 with melta or flamers to crack transports or burn a hole in meatshields to charge through with WE. Maybe even a burning brand lord. Every battle report I've seen of people facing WE has them all cower in one corner to avoid T1 charges (and still get charged). To the point even the eye of night becomes dangerous. Ideal targets to be fried via flamer and blasts.
There's probably not enough points left to take a BL talon or TAF though. Talons in particular would be nice.
So updating my Death Guard list again. Ran a teemie lord with some terminators in a land raider and while it worked heck the raider survived I did miss having no psychic support
1500 Points CSM mono nurgle Death Guard Black Crusade Detachment
Core
Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord Bike MoN Power Fist Sigil of Corruption votlw Warlord 150 points
Chaos Sorceror 155 points
MoNML 3 VoTLW Jump Pack (goes with the bike squad) spell familiar
10 Chaos marines Mon votlw 9 x ccws 2 plasma guns champion has a power fist 243
Rhino with Havoc Launcher 47 points
10 CSMvotlwMoN 2 Plasma Guns 200 points
Rhino 35 points
3 x Terminators Mon votlw 3 conbi plasmas chain fist power fist 152 points
Captyn_Bob wrote: You can still take a Black Legion warband in the black crusade detachment, so it's not so bad.
And I actually like the hounds of abaddon for the speartip.
If we had gotten access to a chaos warband with the speartip detachment CSM would have its first tourney build in years. But we cant have that can we.
What's wrong with the Black Legion Warband? You can take a ton of DS units, and so long as they kill something that Preferred-Enemy equivalent is pretty powerful.
Eldarain wrote: Because the Terminator formation shoots in the movement phase does it become one of our best answers to Knights?
In what manner? With Raptors you can shoot off 2-3 Melta shots and assault with a Melta Bomb.
You fire before they orient their shield.
They orientate at the beginning of the game so he is making you go closer to his lines so get his unprotected sides. not a huge issue i guess but it might place you somewhere less safe.
Sorcabals with various deathstars have been doing good, new legion decurions are also quite nice. For example, a csm player has placed 4-th with an iron warrior warband with cult of destruction and a heldrake formation. Just 1 turn shy of getting to top tables. He still had all 2 heldrakes and something else vs 2 last ravenwing knights in semi finals. But lost on vp, unfortunately. And than he met eldar with wraithknight + imp knight in a mission focussed around scoring the middle.
Not that he even had the most optimal list possible.
Roknar wrote: I see people considering a second wave with world eaters. What about taking a World Eater Warband with a couple of spawn and then a Black Legion hounds of abaddon formation with some spawn.
You get the best of both worlds. Hound units hit pretty hard for what they cost given all the discounts. While WE can re-deploy and catch objectives.
Turn one, WE try to run up the board for T1 assaults and objectives in your opponents deployment zone. Spawn can eat overwatch.
Turn two BL marines run and charge into units that are harder to shift or finish off units the WE are struggling with.
The hounds also let you take raptors that give you the option to deepstrike T1 with melta or flamers to crack transports or burn a hole in meatshields to charge through with WE. Maybe even a burning brand lord. Every battle report I've seen of people facing WE has them all cower in one corner to avoid T1 charges (and still get charged). To the point even the eye of night becomes dangerous. Ideal targets to be fried via flamer and blasts.
There's probably not enough points left to take a BL talon or TAF though. Talons in particular would be nice.
Wots Eye of the Night?
looks it up
OOOHHH BBOOYY except the range is infinite and it ignores cover, so there's literally no need to risk deep striking it in. You're right though, my roommate is starting to realize he can't put all his army on his deployment line since I'll charge it instantly. But this thing, it forces the enemy to fear castling as well. Jesus, it could punch a hole right through a Tau vehicle bubble wrap while your Juggerlord is within charge range of the squishy suits inside...OFF TO BATTLESCRIBE!
Actually, WE and BL have some nice synergy. If they don't castle up they're going to get charged, if they do, eye of night and yuranthos say hello. You could very well hit your opponents entire army with yuranthos if they castle up like I've seen in battle reports. And the since the T1 deepstrike is optional you have some flexibility in your deployment. WE can re-deploy if necessary and you can either hold back deepstriking units when your opponent has reserves or support the WE/ grab a lone objective if you have tactical objective worth it.
Captyn_Bob wrote: You can still take a Black Legion warband in the black crusade detachment, so it's not so bad.
And I actually like the hounds of abaddon for the speartip.
If we had gotten access to a chaos warband with the speartip detachment CSM would have its first tourney build in years. But we cant have that can we.
What's wrong with the Black Legion Warband? You can take a ton of DS units, and so long as they kill something that Preferred-Enemy equivalent is pretty powerful.
Black Legion warband gives you re-roll 1 IF you kill something with a unit from that formation. The Chaos Warband gives Obsec to EVERYTHING in the formation. Turn 1 DSing terminators onto objectives is a nice thing. Its a superior formation regardless.
The BLW does nothing for the formation outside of the suicide terminators and raptors you can take. And we dont need those. So we are left with The Hounds of Abbadon. Which is not terrible, but having to take a marine and zerker tax is just that, an expensive tax. Last I checked charging marines dont do much to anything worthwhile and zerkers are hot garbage. So yea, thats why I want a Chaos Warband. That is close to 200 points in tax for a faction that has no need of taxation.; Maybe if our next codex actually does zerkers justice then we can talk.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.
You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It's still too many points tho)
It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.
I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.
Played around in Battlescribe, yeah it doesn't really seem worth it to bring in a Black Legion decursion just for this relic. It's costly and to make the most of the detachment you need deep strikers which is even more costly. A Raptor Talon, arguably the best thing you can deep strike turn one because you can charge right after you come in, will blow up your points. And then if you're going to do that why worry about Eye of the Night? Way too many points just to make your turn one charges deadlier. An allied detachment for the relic is way cheaper.
They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.
Roknar wrote: They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.
I'm still not convinced. I can move my World Eater bikes and raptors practically into the enemy deployment zone turn one with decent 2D6 free moves. Giving the bikes plasma means they can fire deep into the enemy zone, and no one can castle so hard they are out of range of that unless they null deploy or I mess up my deployment. On top of that, WE bikes are fearless. If I'm going to take a chaos warband with my WE, then I'd rather invest in units that don't risk deep strike mishaps than those that will. Plus, the Hounds CSM and Berzerkers don't hit any harder than WE ones, and they aren't fearless or Objective Secured or Furious Charging CSM. With the 2D6 move you don't even need Run + Assault, you'll get where you need to get to just fine. Really the only thing tempting from Black Legion is that relic, everything else the WE can do better.
koooaei wrote: CSM allready have a bunch of worthwhile tourney lists that are way better than this 1-st turn deepstrike shenanigans.
As was pointed out in a podcast recently. when you can gt the jump on the screamer star or things like it before any buffing and lock it down or kill it, you are miles ahead.
Roknar wrote: They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.
I'm still not convinced. I can move my World Eater bikes and raptors practically into the enemy deployment zone turn one with decent 2D6 free moves. Giving the bikes plasma means they can fire deep into the enemy zone, and no one can castle so hard they are out of range of that unless they null deploy or I mess up my deployment. On top of that, WE bikes are fearless. If I'm going to take a chaos warband with my WE, then I'd rather invest in units that don't risk deep strike mishaps than those that will. Plus, the Hounds CSM and Berzerkers don't hit any harder than WE ones, and they aren't fearless or Objective Secured or Furious Charging CSM. With the 2D6 move you don't even need Run + Assault, you'll get where you need to get to just fine. Really the only thing tempting from Black Legion is that relic, everything else the WE can do better.
Hounds have +1 Strength (while also having FC with an icon) , hatred and crusader, so they hit quite a bit harder. Especially if you give the champs special weapons.
The whole idea was having two waves though. WE have a turn 1 gimmick, Hounds have a turn 2 gimmick. So they complement each other in that way.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.
You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It's still too many points tho)
It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.
I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.
I used the Eye of Night years ago with the Black Legion supplement.
75 points used to be worth it because it was the only long range firepower in the army. It was my Tau counter. Now I take rapier weapons batteries from IA:13 with conversion beamers, which accomplish about the same but are not one use only and can target multiple opponents.
If you think about it, it is much more effective to use long range firepower in support of a speartip than to put your biggest gun in the hands of an IC who can mishap. In the current list I am cooking up, it's a Black Legion Speartip with an Iron Warriors CAD, supported by 3 Rapiers and an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun and comms relay. It gives me improved chances to arrive on the first turn, along with 9 high powered shots at 48 inches on the first turn (the IW troops are Oblits). My logic is dealing with the long range threat and the threat of assault at the same time will be hard on opponents.
On the plus side, Eye of Night is very reliable. In actual practice, it takes off one or two hull points from whatever gets caught in the blast, and sometimes kills a few troops. The blast template is large enough it doesn't miss often. The only times it ever has for me is during turn one shooting, when the blast went off the board. It has killed a couple Landraiders for me, but many more Predators and Rhinos. There was once it blew up 2 Vindicators that were right next to each other.
There are some exotic uses as well. One 'strategy' I used in some games was giving to a Flying Daemon Prince and shooting it while landing. It gave him something to do while he was standing around for a turn. It also turned him into a bigger fire magnet, usually for the worse.
But forget about using it against superheavies. Sure, it will hit, but it's not like it's going to end them. You want your one shot guns killing something with their shot.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.
You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It's still too many points tho)
It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.
I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.
I used the Eye of Night years ago with the Black Legion supplement.
75 points used to be worth it because it was the only long range firepower in the army. It was my Tau counter. Now I take rapier weapons batteries from IA:13 with conversion beamers, which accomplish about the same but are not one use only and can target multiple opponents.
If you think about it, it is much more effective to use long range firepower in support of a speartip than to put your biggest gun in the hands of an IC who can mishap. In the current list I am cooking up, it's a Black Legion Speartip with an Iron Warriors CAD, supported by 3 Rapiers and an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun and comms relay. It gives me improved chances to arrive on the first turn, along with 9 high powered shots at 48 inches on the first turn (the IW troops are Oblits). My logic is dealing with the long range threat and the threat of assault at the same time will be hard on opponents.
On the plus side, Eye of Night is very reliable. In actual practice, it takes off one or two hull points from whatever gets caught in the blast, and sometimes kills a few troops. The blast template is large enough it doesn't miss often. The only times it ever has for me is during turn one shooting, when the blast went off the board. It has killed a couple Landraiders for me, but many more Predators and Rhinos. There was once it blew up 2 Vindicators that were right next to each other.
There are some exotic uses as well. One 'strategy' I used in some games was giving to a Flying Daemon Prince and shooting it while landing. It gave him something to do while he was standing around for a turn. It also turned him into a bigger fire magnet, usually for the worse.
But forget about using it against superheavies. Sure, it will hit, but it's not like it's going to end them. You want your one shot guns killing something with their shot.
Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.
Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.
Discount on the eye? Not sure I understand, please explain.
Thinking out loud, but the best way to use the Eye would be to kill something very killable, like a Rhino, and use it to get rerolls for the rest of the warband. You are almost guaranteed to wipe something out. That implies it's really a turn 2 weapon, one that shoots first once everyone is in range.
I think I'd rather run that on a flying prince so he can get across the board quickly and into ideal positioning while not being particularly vulnerable in the air.
Latro_ wrote: Anyone tried the IW Cranium Malevolus out yet? it seems pretty sweet on a character in a rhino/LR?
Its the any vehicles within 2d6 in the shooting phase get a haywire hit...
In the ENEMY shooting phase. Means that they can easilly get away from you before they get hit. I'd rate it as a 10-15 pt artifact.
Wrong. At the start of the bearers shooting phase you can activate it. You can't reposition and fire, but if the enemy kept things close they screwed up.
Depending on what role you give the prince, you might not need the armor. Or you could run two of course. A Nurgle Prince flying around jinking and summong for example has no need for fleshmetal and is now still contributing more damage to ground targets.
Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.
Discount on the eye? Not sure I understand, please explain.
Thinking out loud, but the best way to use the Eye would be to kill something very killable, like a Rhino, and use it to get rerolls for the rest of the warband. You are almost guaranteed to wipe something out. That implies it's really a turn 2 weapon, one that shoots first once everyone is in range.
In the sense that you get the terminator armour free, which you would need anyway if you take the eye (or a bike) because of the relentless it confers.
So you could think of it as a 40 point discount for the eye if you're already planning to take the it.
You can just about fit a T1 shooty, shooty, magicy, assault mess .
Speartip
Hounds of abaddon w/, dreadclaw
Sorceror with eye of night, 3 units of terminators loaded up with guns
Fist of khorne
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think I prefer the cult of destruction tho. Real shame the warpsmith can't deep strike.
You can if careful have him in a dreadclaw and get out and join in T1 for double firing fun.
(Obviously there would be other stuff on the dreadclaw, which would be looking to assault T2)
andysonic1 wrote:Wrong. At the start of the bearers shooting phase you can activate it. You can't reposition and fire, but if the enemy kept things close they screwed up.
Roknar wrote: Oh right, the fist of khorne, that would be hilarious if the opponent castles up.
Actually it would be completely useless since most castles have bubble wrap. The whole point of bringing anything besides assaulting units is to remove the bubble wrap before the assaults, not turn assaults to 11 and then break off the knob. Turn one deep striking meltas, novas, or what-have-you will remove the wrapping paper so you can get to the goodies inside with your axes.
The claw does both. It can crash into their bubble wrapped vehicles, hit them with D then be move the minimum distance, aka outside the bubblewrap. The eye of night doesn't care about bubblewrap so hits whatever you want it to and then the termies and raptors can clear the bubblewrap for the zerkers. Alternatively keep the zerketrs inside if there is a lot of squishy stuff for the S6 nova attack.
Can you drop the claws and fit a warband instead? Fore more reliable wrapping paper removal? After all you have a 20 strong zerker unit charging turn 1 already, no hiding from them.
*edit* Actually nvm the warband, no reason to castle up in the first place if you go with the warband.
That would work, if you could ensure you landed on the enemy vehicles, which you can't. Regardless, the 79 AP- attacks from the zerkers if you choose not to multi-charge are still AP-. You can give the champ something hefty like a Powerfist and cross your fingers that his five attacks carry the day. You're also still relying on everything not scattering far from where you want it to go. I'd say 50% of your games with a list like this will turn out the way you want them to.
WATCH OUT GUARDSMEN HERE COMES THE CHAINAXE TRAIN CHOO CHOOOOOOOOOOOO oh wait they're in their metal boxes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit to your edit
Yes, you can always slingshot your lords in IF they are on foot and able to reach your pod, which with the way you can conga line 20 guys shouldn't be an issue. However you'd be better off using WE lords since they will definitely get to the conga line.
AND EVEN THEN, even slingshotting lords in all day, you still need to remove the bubble wrap. Can you fit a Fist of Khorne, a WE Butcherhorde, and a BL Spear Tip in a list?
So I think I'm finally happy with my list once and for all. I suppose if I replaced the Scrolls & Familiar w/ the Script of Erebus, I could add an extra cultist to each unit, add extra CCWs to the Marines and buy a Disc or ML 3 for the Herald. Ultimately I'm happy with Scrolls though. Planning to test this tomorrow.
++Word Bearers Grand Host [Primary]++
+Chaos Warband+
Sorcerer of Nurgle on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, The Malefic Tome - 190 [Warlord]
Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Lightning Claw/Powerfist, Sigil of Corruption, Scrolls of Magnus and Spell Familiar - 235
it looks pretty good but i have a couple of questions/comments:
Why nurgle on the sorc?
3++ is not that desirable for the lord unless you want him for the disc, other than that i say you throw MOS or no mark and put him with the bikes
i would run the cultists barebones and use the 10 points elsewhere like melta bombs
why would you use power lance? I would rather use a power sword since you have MOS, but i think nurgle would be better for the bikers
i think you should drop some ccw on the marines, because at the end of the day they are still marines and there are only 5 of them. i also think you are investing too much in your rhinos, if they are meant to push up the board then they shouldn't have havoc launchers
with the extra points i say turn that allies of daemons to a cad. GL
andysonic1 wrote: That would work, if you could ensure you landed on the enemy vehicles, which you can't. Regardless, the 79 AP- attacks from the zerkers if you choose not to multi-charge are still AP-. You can give the champ something hefty like a Powerfist and cross your fingers that his five attacks carry the day. You're also still relying on everything not scattering far from where you want it to go. I'd say 50% of your games with a list like this will turn out the way you want them to.
Well if there are vehicles, you're almost certain to hit them given the ginormous size of a kharybdis. It's roughly 10 inch in diameter, but this is assuming you can pick a spot to deepstrike without having to set down the kharybdis first as opposed to scattering onto them. It's allowed here, but I keep forgetting that it's a houserule.
Either way though, any list including a fist of khorne is more for fun than anything. 20 Zerkers are just too expensive and inefficient imho.
Nevermind banking on your opponent castling up. But it sure would look awesome when the dice gods are on your side.
The same is true for the speartip in general. To make good use of it requires a lot of deepstriking units, which is gamble at best.
Fluffy and it should be pretty devastating if it works out, but it's not exactly a reliable strategy.
-v10mega wrote: it looks pretty good but i have a couple of questions/comments:
Why nurgle on the sorc?
3++ is not that desirable for the lord unless you want him for the disc, other than that i say you throw MOS or no mark and put him with the bikes
i would run the cultists barebones and use the 10 points elsewhere like melta bombs
why would you use power lance? I would rather use a power sword since you have MOS, but i think nurgle would be better for the bikers
i think you should drop some ccw on the marines, because at the end of the day they are still marines and there are only 5 of them. i also think you are investing too much in your rhinos, if they are meant to push up the board then they shouldn't have havoc launchers
with the extra points i say turn that allies of daemons to a cad. GL
The Palanquin of Nurgle adds 2 wounds to the Sorcerer. Gives him some leeway when summoning, since he's not a Daemon and will suffer from Perils otherwise! Also, Lore of Nurgle is now actually a really neat support discipline, with 3 really neat blessings: I can either heal a character for D3 wounds, get a power that's either like Enfeeble or a reverse Enfeeble, or give a unit Poison attacks. Imagine 20 Zealot Cultists with Poison 4+ attacks on the charge for a moment.
The Lord is Obsec. The Disc adds another attack and gives the option to split off to cap an objective or jump over an enemy unit. Scrolls are so he's a backup caster (I wanted 2 Psykers in my Warband). Last game, he killed 2 Arena Champs, a Sybarite and Solarite with a Sunburst and got to make 8 rolls for Chaos Boons!
Marines have their loadout so I have flexibility, for shooting or melee. For shooting before assault/assault itself, the Bolter Marine gets to do grenade duty.
Cultists are pretty neat when 100% fearless, when they also get Crusader. Plus 20 models and 2 flamers for 100 is rather nice.
Lance is +1 Strength on the charge. Combine with Voice of Lorgar or Curse of the Leper, that's S6 on the charge.
The Rhinos have Dirge Casters, not Havocs. This lets them shut down Overwatch.
Roknar wrote: It's roughly 10 inch in diameter, but this is assuming you can pick a spot to deepstrike without having to set down the kharybdis first as opposed to scattering onto them. It's allowed here, but I keep forgetting that it's a houserule.
Houserule Schmouserule . Deep strike say place your model where you would like it to arrive, and the Meteoric Decent lets you land on building or vehicles (but.. not anything else) without mishap.
Quick question guys, with the black legion, wich one is better: 9 chaos bikes with mark of nurgle or 10 chosen with 4 melta in a rhino? Bikes are more resilient but the chosen give me Objective Secured and they are a bit better at shooting and in melee
Roknar wrote: It's roughly 10 inch in diameter, but this is assuming you can pick a spot to deepstrike without having to set down the kharybdis first as opposed to scattering onto them. It's allowed here, but I keep forgetting that it's a houserule.
Houserule Schmouserule . Deep strike say place your model where you would like it to arrive, and the Meteoric Decent lets you land on building or vehicles (but.. not anything else) without mishap.
You're playing a little fast and loose with the rules there. The BRB wording for deep striking says:
"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position."
You are required to place the model on the table. You cannot place models on other models. Therefore, you cannot place deep striking models of any kind on any other models. The Meteoric Decent rule does NOT let you land on buildings or vehicles, it tells you what happens if you happen to scatter onto them, whereby you deal a D strength hit and then move the model to a place where it can land. You cannot, unless you are Nids, deep strike on top of other models. You would have to houserule being able to place the pod on units. Being able to do so would make it much more powerful than it currently is.
Yea, it's def a houserule, in this case for the kharybdis in particular. The RAW definately doesn't allow it, but mirroring the nid thing seemed more appropriate in this case.
Roknar wrote: Yea, it's def a houserule, in this case for the kharybdis in particular. The RAW definately doesn't allow it, but mirroring the nid thing seemed more appropriate in this case.
I 100% agree that you should be able to purposefully land the thing on enemy units since the formation has rules that specifically intend that outcome.
"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position."
You are required to place the model on the table. You cannot place models on other models. Therefore, you cannot place deep striking models of any kind on any other models. The Meteoric Decent rule does NOT let you land on buildings or vehicles, it tells you what happens if you happen to scatter onto them, whereby you deal a D strength hit and then move the model to a place where it can land. You cannot, unless you are Nids, deep strike on top of other models. You would have to houserule being able to place the pod on units. Being able to do so would make it much more powerful than it currently is.
Meteoric Decent does not mention scatter at all (fast and loose indeed!). The intent of the rule is perfectly clear. The placement thing I agree with in principle, except where the rule requires it to function. Not everything has to be rules lawyered to death.
Also, as per the new FAQ Q: If a flyer which is forced to move 18" forwards due to an
Immobilised result ends its move over an enemy unit, does it
‘Crash and Burn!’?
A: No. Use the ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule, clearly
indicating where the model’s actual position is on
the table
So there are examples where models can be placed on models if the situation demands it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
piratepizzadog wrote: Quick question guys, with the black legion, wich one is better: 9 chaos bikes with mark of nurgle or 10 chosen with 4 melta in a rhino? Bikes are more resilient but the chosen give me Objective Secured and they are a bit better at shooting and in melee
I think the mobility and durability of bikes probably wins out. The rhino could give away easy first blood (IF you aren't using rhino's anyway). I guess it depends on the makeup of your list therewith. e.g. MSU or using the cabal to death star up.
saruon wrote: What are peoples opinion on a DG Terminator Annihilation Force? Is it worth the points?
If so, should you also pick termies as a tax unit in a chaos warband?
Most DG units are pretty good. It's a fair old chunk of points tho.
With 3 terminator units already I don't see why you'd take a fourth. DG chosen are a solid option.
"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position."
You are required to place the model on the table. You cannot place models on other models. Therefore, you cannot place deep striking models of any kind on any other models. The Meteoric Decent rule does NOT let you land on buildings or vehicles, it tells you what happens if you happen to scatter onto them, whereby you deal a D strength hit and then move the model to a place where it can land. You cannot, unless you are Nids, deep strike on top of other models. You would have to houserule being able to place the pod on units. Being able to do so would make it much more powerful than it currently is.
Meteoric Decent does not mention scatter at all (fast and loose indeed!). The intent of the rule is perfectly clear. The placement thing I agree with in principle, except where the rule requires it to function. Not everything has to be rules lawyered to death.
Also, as per the new FAQ Q: If a flyer which is forced to move 18" forwards due to an
Immobilised result ends its move over an enemy unit, does it
‘Crash and Burn!’?
A: No. Use the ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule, clearly
indicating where the model’s actual position is on
the table
So there are examples where models can be placed on models if the situation demands it.
You're right that the Meteoric Decent does not mention scatter. However, your example is not related to the topic. In my example, Mawlocs are explicitly allowed to deep strike on other units to deal their deep strike damage. If this was the intention of the Fist of Khorne, it would have been explicitly written. You could argue that GW are just terrible at making sure all the rules of the formations actually work together or keeping rules consistent, but that's another argument. While the intent of Meteoric Decent may seem like you should be allowed to land directly on enemy units, there is no explicit rule or FAQ that allows it. It's not rules lawyering, it's rules as written.
As with all things "rules as intended", just talk to your opponent or TO before attempting. It would certainly make the formation many times more powerful if it was written to allow you to land on enemy models, but it does not.
I've had a game with a khorne warband with 10 footslogging termies + lord, alpha legion lost and the damned + iron warrior couple oblis and sorcs cad VS white scars with 2 grav cent squads in pods with an ignore cover chapter master, sister of silence formation with 6 squads carrying ap2 swords and some other stuff. Termies won by a large margin via maelstorm. Was a fun game.
Nice. How did the Terminators fare as far as being an in-game threat?
Didn't get a game in but hopefully will soon. The more I think of I5, the more I like the idea of a "mixed loadout" for min CSM:
-Bolter Marine
-2 Pistol/CCW Marines.
-Meltagun/Pistol/CCW Marine.
-Combi-Melta Champ.
This let's me either fire 2 bolters from a Rhino, Melta/combi, do 15/10 attacks in CC. And if I really wish to take pot-shots before assaulting, the Bolter Marine gets to do Grenade duty. Half the reason I'd even do a loadout like this is "4 points leftover" though (two 95-point squads become 97 pts instead), as it feels amusing overall.
I just won a small event using a Nurgle warband with 3 units of terminators. Gave them all combi plas, 2 power fists, and 1 power axe per unit. They did prove very durable even against units of black knights shooting and charging into them. I had 1 in each game die to overheats and several mishaps, but my luck on saving throws was a lot better. They also proved to be great objective grabbers with the ob sec. I don't really see the need for the terminator annihilation force though. I'd just take the number you need from the warband slots.
MagicJuggler wrote: Nice. How did the Terminators fare as far as being an in-game threat?
They fared surprisingly ok vs an army with 90% stuff being ap2. They're really fuelled by a talisman juggerlord. I also ran an alpha apostle with mindveil which helped out in the right moment.
Termies scouted forward and multicharged 3 units of sisters 1-st turn, i lost 3 termies and lord suffered 3 wounds but wiped 2.5 units. Than as they were still locked in combat, grav cents had to choose another target and wiped all my mages and bikes - that i separated from the main deathstar cause sisters of silence get stronger vs units with mages and deny all the buffs anywayz. Than termies got charged by another unit of sisters of silence and due to positioning and their ini5 attacks, they killed another 3 termies before i could strike back - but when termies and lord did strike back, they wiped all but one lucky sister. Than mindveiled 11" towards centurions with a fist chapter master. Charged them wiping the squad - lord did most of the power lifting. Termies did kill a centurion beforehand with combi-meltas and bolters, so it helped out. Than the second centurion squad came from reserves and finished off terminators, however, apostle and lord managed to survive - each of them having 1 wound. They than teamed up with havoks and almost wiped the centurions in mellee - sarge still managed to hit and run with the last wound and than grav away 4 out of 5 havoks. Got finished off shortly after. In the meanwhile oblis were doing ok vs his vehicles, cultists were running around scoring, flaming marines and the rest of the sisters of silence - even managed to kill a couple in mellee. Though, it was an odd dice game. One turn i got 8 ones in a row - including when i needed to charge 3" with cultists, 4" with marines - re-rollable and pass 2 2+ saves with termies vs centurions in mellee. However, it evened out by amazing 4++ with apostle vs grav and the most important 5++ of the termie champ that somehow survived a challenge vs fist chapter master. By the end of the game, there wasn't much left on board on both sides but chaos got so many vp in the 1-st and 2-d round that it was a safe solid victory in the end.
Things that i'd change - meltas for bikes. Were not worth it in like every game i fielded them. I'd rather have an extra body or squeeze some extra pts for a spawn. Not really sure about the cultist formation but the mindveil was golden and i guess 110 pts over for the ability to resurrect from time to time is not a high price to pay for an allready ok unit of cultists with a flamer. I'm still not sure what to do with regular marines. On one hand, bp+ccw seems logical with all those mellee buffs. But it's not the first game where they didn't do anything at all in mellee cause they either couldn't get there or were killed without doing anything - like when 2 sister squads charged them in this game. However, they tend to shoot bolt pistols and throw grenades most of the time. I guess they could really go with bolters still remaining ok in mellee with 3 attacks instead of 4 - and the champ can still have his bp + ccw just in case.
As for termie's performance, they kinda made their points back by tanking wounds with 5++ and dealing a couple ap2 blows here and there but they'd never work without a lord. In this very matchup khornedogs would have been significantly better as deathstar meat for the lord and mages. But termies still have their merits. A chainfist is great vs knights, potential 4 s6 ap2 attacks with hatred per base can even be brutal - especially when it's not unheard of fighting vs 2+ re-rollable - and it's gona be even more often now with all the new imperial moneygrab releases. Dogs are still better overall due to grav and all the ap2 floating around and the fact that dogs get 4 5++ wounds for the price of 1 termie and they can be cheaper. But the fact that new rules have made termies even remotely a considerable option is great on it's own.
I have serious question, if the poxwalker hive allows cultists to have fnp and fearless for the entire game, could that combine with nurgle cultists? Nurgle cultists have t4, then you give them fnp and fearless, they become just as durable as iron hand marines. you could get some sorceres and give them endurance, now you have 33 cultists with EW and 4+++ put them with the thousand sorcerers and make them jump, you have a large blight of wounds and a crap ton of wounds and very strong killing power. Will that work?
MagicJuggler wrote: Nice. How did the Terminators fare as far as being an in-game threat?
They fared surprisingly ok vs an army with 90% stuff being ap2. They're really fuelled by a talisman juggerlord. I also ran an alpha apostle with mindveil which helped out in the right moment.
Termies scouted forward and multicharged 3 units of sisters 1-st turn, i lost 3 termies and lord suffered 3 wounds but wiped 2.5 units. Than as they were still locked in combat, grav cents had to choose another target and wiped all my mages and bikes - that i separated from the main deathstar cause sisters of silence get stronger vs units with mages and deny all the buffs anywayz. Than termies got charged by another unit of sisters of silence and due to positioning and their ini5 attacks, they killed another 3 termies before i could strike back - but when termies and lord did strike back, they wiped all but one lucky sister. Than mindveiled 11" towards centurions with a fist chapter master. Charged them wiping the squad - lord did most of the power lifting. Termies did kill a centurion beforehand with combi-meltas and bolters, so it helped out. Than the second centurion squad came from reserves and finished off terminators, however, apostle and lord managed to survive - each of them having 1 wound. They than teamed up with havoks and almost wiped the centurions in mellee - sarge still managed to hit and run with the last wound and than grav away 4 out of 5 havoks. Got finished off shortly after. In the meanwhile oblis were doing ok vs his vehicles, cultists were running around scoring, flaming marines and the rest of the sisters of silence - even managed to kill a couple in mellee. Though, it was an odd dice game. One turn i got 8 ones in a row - including when i needed to charge 3" with cultists, 4" with marines - re-rollable and pass 2 2+ saves with termies vs centurions in mellee. However, it evened out by amazing 4++ with apostle vs grav and the most important 5++ of the termie champ that somehow survived a challenge vs fist chapter master. By the end of the game, there wasn't much left on board on both sides but chaos got so many vp in the 1-st and 2-d round that it was a safe solid victory in the end.
Things that i'd change - meltas for bikes. Were not worth it in like every game i fielded them. I'd rather have an extra body or squeeze some extra pts for a spawn. Not really sure about the cultist formation but the mindveil was golden and i guess 110 pts over for the ability to resurrect from time to time is not a high price to pay for an allready ok unit of cultists with a flamer. I'm still not sure what to do with regular marines. On one hand, bp+ccw seems logical with all those mellee buffs. But it's not the first game where they didn't do anything at all in mellee cause they either couldn't get there or were killed without doing anything - like when 2 sister squads charged them in this game. However, they tend to shoot bolt pistols and throw grenades most of the time. I guess they could really go with bolters still remaining ok in mellee with 3 attacks instead of 4 - and the champ can still have his bp + ccw just in case.
As for termie's performance, they kinda made their points back by tanking wounds with 5++ and dealing a couple ap2 blows here and there but they'd never work without a lord. In this very matchup khornedogs would have been significantly better as deathstar meat for the lord and mages. But termies still have their merits. A chainfist is great vs knights, potential 4 s6 ap2 attacks with hatred per base can even be brutal - especially when it's not unheard of fighting vs 2+ re-rollable - and it's gona be even more often now with all the new imperial moneygrab releases. Dogs are still better overall due to grav and all the ap2 floating around and the fact that dogs get 4 5++ wounds for the price of 1 termie and they can be cheaper. But the fact that new rules have made termies even remotely a considerable option is great on it's own.
How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?
andysonic1 wrote: How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?
Termies and lord did, apostle and sorcs didn't and just remained in unit coherency.
If we got the new faq right, you can do that as models move individually and there's no requirement for each model in the unit to have the rule. Also, you will get charge re-rolls for models inmixed units from the World eaturion bonus.
andysonic1 wrote: How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?
Termies and lord did, apostle and sorcs didn't and just remained in unit coherency.
If we got the new faq right, you can do that as models move individually and there's no requirement for each model in the unit to have the rule. Also, you will get charge re-rolls for models inmixed units from the World eaturion bonus.
generally that's correct, but the butcherhorde bonus move specifies that the entire unit has to be in that detachment to get the bonus.
It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)
Anyone else use the Purge FOC yet for their Death Guard? It is simply the best way for us to get our Plague Marine fix but with Chosen instead. I ran the following last night after work:
The Purge - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Lord
. MoN, Chainfist, Burning Brand, Sigil, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
While all my games ended in my favor, I STILL feel something is lacking. I didn't miss the OS of Plague Marines in a CAD, so that clearly wasn't it. We won't win the objective game against Gladius or Eldar. However, I don't think Terminators are the way to go in the list, even though the Terminator Lord himself makes an incredible distraction now. Yeah he can roast a unit in one go, but is that worth the Terminator tax? I'm unsure.
I'm considering cutting all the Terminators together, just leaving the Lord and paying for the suit of Terminator armor, and maybe getting more Chosen.
koooaei wrote: It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)
Does it now? Then we have different versions. ..
I have the ebook and it says:
"all non-vehicle units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately made a 2d6" move (roll separately for each unit). "
koooaei wrote: It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)
The quote is "units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately make a 2D6" move"
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Lord
. MoN, Chainfist, Burning Brand, Sigil, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
While all my games ended in my favor, I STILL feel something is lacking. I didn't miss the OS of Plague Marines in a CAD, so that clearly wasn't it. We won't win the objective game against Gladius or Eldar. However, I don't think Terminators are the way to go in the list, even though the Terminator Lord himself makes an incredible distraction now. Yeah he can roast a unit in one go, but is that worth the Terminator tax? I'm unsure.
I'm considering cutting all the Terminators together, just leaving the Lord and paying for the suit of Terminator armor, and maybe getting more Chosen.
I never thought Death Guard terminators looked right on a table until I saw power scythes in their hands.
It is a lot of points, but realize Targeted for Annihilation can be a very powerful tool. The way I see it, the formation you picked allows you to do a lot more than kill a single squad the turn you arrive. If you break a tank with the free round of shooting the turn you arrive, you can shoot up the occupants pretty well in the actual shooting phase.
When you roll the d3+1 rolls on the boon table result, have you guys played that those get doubled by the warband bonuses? If so, I had a term champ get 16 rolls on the table. It wasn't going to affect anything else in the game so we didn't resolve it, but it was funny and I was curious if you guys had seen something to rule one way or the other. Just not sure whether those count as being from the "champion of chaos" rule since a librarian kill was what led to the rolls that created more rolls.
Ive been toying with the idea of adding a small Alpha legion detachment to my Black Legion Alpha build. Currently I am raptor heavy but I am eyeing the Terminator Annihilation Force if you take Burning Brand on the lord and put in two AL independent char's with the bolter upgrade relics I am thinking you can get some decent firepower on a alpha strike then move in to assault. There are two problems however, first is I am not near my copy of TL or TH so I cant read the all important terminology used to for TAF. If its models from this formation then the tactic wont work, if its units then I am gtg. The second is it leaves a pretty big foot print on the warlords turn 1 drop because you are running 3 termis, and 1 lord and two sorcs in Term armor. The second is that you are left with 2 sqwuads of terminators that wont accomplish much besides suicide melta due to lack of Obsec or FNP. Ill know more of what I plan to do when I get home and can read the rules. Im hoping its units.
koooaei wrote: It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)
The quote is "units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately make a 2D6" move"
Basically a very old army from 2004 with some new bits in so not hyper competitive.
Mate had:
TW cav (like 8) with a priest
Ragnar with BC in a storm wolf
grey hunters in a storm wolf
2 dreads
5 long fangs with multimeltas
To be fair his list was a bit of a slapped together and he was unlucky, tabled him turn 3.
highlight was both his SW's coming on and obilterating my knight only to have my havocs:
melta ragnar's out the sky not rolling a single one (killing 15 blood claws and ragnar!)
then the las havocs doing pretty much the same to the other one the turn after!
Tank hunter on obilts and havocs seemed like a huge boost! Cost him dearly as SW's have armoured cermite so he opted not to jink the meltaguns but ofc i had a re-roll and got those 5's!
also made a couple of 6+ FnPs
also got the WL trait that lets obilts withint 12" use the same gun, actually game in really handy!
pretty happy with how the list plays although i expect vs tougher lists a lot of my stuff could crumble.
One thing i have noticed playing with these new rules is that from a warm fuzzy fluff perspective it does 'feel' like you are playing with that legion, which is great.
koooaei wrote: Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.
How did you deal with twc, btw?
He didn't run them to well only a couple of SS's and a bit unit. The knight obv had 24 s6 ap3 rending shots so wittled them down with the odd lascannon round actually got one with mass bolter fire too. They still made it to CC with 3 of them just piled in two units of marines and help them up, the iron priest was the last model in the army to drop whilst in CC with the CSM.
Now i think about it i forgot hatred for Votlw!! damn!!!
koooaei wrote: Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.
How did you deal with twc, btw?
The problem with IW's is not that the legion rules are bad, they are not. Its just they could have been more and better. Id have liked the warlord trait that allows oblit weapon choices to be consecutive to be a legion rule. But the main problem with IWs is the legion detachment which only cover half of the fluff and is mostly useless unless you load up on defilers or vindicators or a macro cannon fort. If the bonus had simply included blast re-rolls it would have been good. But the detachment forces you to take either a horrible unit that is two times as expensive as it should be or a good solid tank with close range firepower or a fort with a barrage or ord weapon. Actually it would have been better to switch a few rules between the legion rules and the detachment rules. If the detachment rule had been legion it would at least let IW's take advantage of it with FW units which is far more fluffly than what we ended up with.
No one is going to argue that tank hunter havoc's or oblits are anything but great, when you fight AV that is.
koooaei wrote: Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.
How did you deal with twc, btw?
The problem with IW's is not that the legion rules are bad, they are not. Its just they could have been more and better. Id have liked the warlord trait that allows oblit weapon choices to be consecutive to be a legion rule. But the main problem with IWs is the legion detachment which only cover half of the fluff and is mostly useless unless you load up on defilers or vindicators or a macro cannon fort. If the bonus had simply included blast re-rolls it would have been good. But the detachment forces you to take either a horrible unit that is two times as expensive as it should be or a good solid tank with close range firepower or a fort with a barrage or ord weapon. Actually it would have been better to switch a few rules between the legion rules and the detachment rules. If the detachment rule had been legion it would at least let IW's take advantage of it with FW units which is far more fluffly than what we ended up with.
No one is going to argue that tank hunter havoc's or oblits are anything but great, when you fight AV that is.
Wall of Martyrs weapon battery emplacement with battle cannons is the most cost effective means of ordnance fortifications... That said I agree. The rules are good but the Iron Warriors really suffer from how their rules were parsed. Unlike other legions the Iron Warriors army, to be fully realized, has to be built around two detachments. One central issue, is how the Legion rules have an emphasis on Obliterators and yet besides the cult of destruction there really isn't a way to use them in the Grand Company... and the cult is a bad formation. There simply isn't a reason to ever take Obliterators in anything other than a CAD. The cult of destruction, the Warpsmith is too expensive of a tax and unless you're going for 6 or more Obliterators, the benefit doesn't justify the cost, because you could always just take more Obliterators in place of the Warpsmith and have a similar effect without having to march the formation around like a unit and without being forced into targeting a single enemy unit when using that ability. Thus you take them in a CAD, 6 individual Obliterators each their own unit, optimizing flexibility, mitigating deep strike risks, and increasing the likelihood your opponent wastes shots if they do go after them... where the only tax is an HQ choice, that's more worthwhile than the meh-Warpsmith.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Due to there being no tax like that, another power combo could be an Alpha Legion CAD and Iron Warriors CAD.
I don't believe it this combo, but I think you're onto the yet fully realized potential of this book. The book makes it advantageous to take multiple detachments and once that happens there really isn't a reason to fixate on a single Legion. The undivided legions, I feel are really setup to promotes them as secondary choices to be combined with another Legion.
I do not think legions were intended to be mixed and matched. I think they left that as a solid option, yes. Even a better option in a few case's. But its main goal was to give chaos players what they have asked for since the old dex. Working legions. And some of those legions work, some dont. In typical GW fashion. But there is a whole other side to this thats probably best left off the tactics forums But it bears mentioning that the IW entry to the supplement was very lacking in this department. We were given half of legion with no mention at all to the other half. Im not sure if this is a retcon as they have been so wont to do in the past 10 years or so or if it was pure laziness.
I'm building a 2k list of World Eaters to play against my friend's Imperial Guard. He's going to be bringing tanks out the wazoo along with two basilisk artillery carriages.
My usual World Eater list is as follows:
Butcherhorde
- Chaos Warband
- - AoBF Juggerlord, Sigil, Gift (escorted by spawn)
- - 3 - 5 Termies, Axes and C-Bolters (escort for termie lord)
- - 5 bikes, 2x meltas
- - Helbrute with rift anomaly (cheaper than taking a unit of havocs with rhino + anomaly, yes walkers don't benefit from 2D6 free move but I wouldn't have moved missile launcher havocs either)
- - two units of base CSM (backfield objective holders)
- Lords of the Legion
- - Black Mace Juggerlord, Sigil, GIft (escorted by bikes)
- - Talisman Termi lord, Gift, Axe, C-Bolter
- - Glaive Deamon Prince, GIft
- Aux
- - 3 - 4 spawn
I've only ever run into problems when invisibility is involved, otherwise the lords and prince smash through everything. Even if one unit gets singled out and demolished, the other units are still rushing headlong into combat. I've thought about adding a CAD of IW with 6 oblits, or another idea was an Ally Detachment of KDK with a Korlath lord scouting forward with five hounds as a fire magnet. A free Bloodthirster at full strength across the table seems fun and can take fire off my WE. I've also considered a Gorefather Deamon Prince or a Gorefather Juggerlord with Spawn escort. Or I can make the lord escorts beefier. Lots of options, all I know is I'm going to get shot a lot.
I'm not sure I want to fit Kharn into the list. Juggerlords and Deamon Princes are so much faster and just as killy. Besides I don't think my friend is going to be casting invis as much as shooty buffs.
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godardc wrote: So, eventually, how does the World Eater Legion compares to the Khorne Daemonkin ?
They seem faster but not as resistant.
WE are definitely not as resilient as KDK in my opinion mostly because KDK involved tons of Hounds which are pretty beefy. Plus you can occasionally get FNP across the board which helps a lot.
I was actually considering taking a Gorepack and sticking WE Juggerlords to the Hound units. My opponents are learning not to let me turn one charge, so the free 2D6 move from the Butcherhorde is losing its luster. A Hound scout move into cover and a turn one of repositioning for turn two charges is what I used to do with KDK and it worked fairly well. WE Juggerlords are 10x more killy than KDK Juggerlords, so mixing the best of both worlds might yield some good results.
Starting to think that icon of excess aren't really worth it on anything except bikes, been trying to make use of 10 man squads of marines so that I get maximum value from the icons, but it never works out. God I miss charging out of stationary rhinos.
So think I will just stop buying them and try out some kind of Noise Marine rhino rush with doom sirens in minimum sized units I feel like I am wasting allot of pts taking 4/5 extra guys plus the Icon when there rarely do anything, especially in noise marines where most of the work is done by the doom siren wielding champion.
Jimsolo wrote: What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?
Depending on what you take them for and what kind of detachment they come from.
In any case, i'd not run them in anything other than 5-man squads. Raptors are not good enough to be real mellee killers - they perform as weak squad harrassers and scorers. And 5 man squads are suffecient enough for it. Furthermore, if you want to deepstrike them, the smaller their footprint is - the better. Deepstike without scatter mitigation is very risky and you want to minimise your chances of a mishap. Furthermore, you allready have access to 2 special weapons and a champ with a 5-man squad.
As for the special weapons, it will all depend on their role and each weapon has it's uses. I'd probably go for melta in a raptor talon and flamers/plazma/nothing in a cad. Unlike bikers, raptors loose extra attacks for taking special weapons, so it's not always a must Seems they do keep bp+ccw even after taking a special weapon. Sometimes you could even consider a power weapon for your sarge. Something like a mace could be great vs vehicles and soft targets.
Jimsolo wrote: What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?
I'm running a Murder Talon, using squads of 6 with 1xFlamer and 1xMeltagun. Meltagun for some AT goodness, and just added the flamer because the added chance of even 1 or 2 kills makes a difference. You're losing the extra +1 attack on the turn you deepstrike, but I'm hoping the flamer helps mitigate this, since you're gonna get quite a Str4 hits out of a single shot.
Aside from the mishap mitigation with it, the Murder Talon and Night Lord bonuses for breaking an enemy are greatly enhanced by having multiple units charge. Essentially even though I'm running 2x 6 Raptor units, they wolfpack an opponent effectively becoming a 12 man attack. Against hordes and none SM's, that -2 LD is helpful.
I've run a raptor heavy list twice now. Tabled Orks (Big whup), but also shredded a Flyrant list that specifically kitted up to match me. They're very tactical, but I think raptors, especially the NL types, are shaping up to be pretty solid.
Jimsolo wrote: What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?
I'm running a Murder Talon, using squads of 6 with 1xFlamer and 1xMeltagun. Meltagun for some AT goodness, and just added the flamer because the added chance of even 1 or 2 kills makes a difference. You're losing the extra +1 attack on the turn you deepstrike, but I'm hoping the flamer helps mitigate this, since you're gonna get quite a Str4 hits out of a single shot.
Aside from the mishap mitigation with it, the Murder Talon and Night Lord bonuses for breaking an enemy are greatly enhanced by having multiple units charge. Essentially even though I'm running 2x 6 Raptor units, they wolfpack an opponent effectively becoming a 12 man attack. Against hordes and none SM's, that -2 LD is helpful.
I've run a raptor heavy list twice now. Tabled Orks (Big whup), but also shredded a Flyrant list that specifically kitted up to match me. They're very tactical, but I think raptors, especially the NL types, are shaping up to be pretty solid.
Thats very cool. But what do you think the NL bring the Talon over a BL alpha strike talon?
What do you think about a falcon punch raptor talon lord? The one with a NL artifact that makes a single ap1 ID attack. Very niche but can be super fun vs somehting like riptides.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but would the +1 Strength drug result for EC add to the base statline (affecting HoW and Power Fist) or just like any modifier (so only S9 Powerfist)?
The complete FAQs are out, and I noticed one for Traitor Legions. Cool! Or so I thought. There is exactly one question answered in it:
Q:Alpha Legion have the ability to bring Cultists back on a 4+ in their Insurgency Force, but the only way to take Cultists is in the Lost and the Damned Formation which already has the rule. How do these interact? A: These rules do not interact in any stackable way.
Still not sure what the alpha legion faq actually means. At a glance it would imply that cult uprising doesn't do anything at all, but that seems too much of a failure even for GW.
Roknar wrote: Still not sure what the alpha legion faq actually means. At a glance it would imply that cult uprising doesn't do anything at all, but that seems too much of a failure even for GW.
Basically the AL detachment overrides the rule from LatD, allowing the returned Cultists to Outflank. That's all.
Tbh I'm strongly leaning towards simply ignoring that one line faq and giving AL two units of cultists. That particular faq is pretty insulting. Of all the new rules, that's the ONE thing they could think of worthy of a faq? And with a dubious answer at that.
The Alpha legion detachment question was raised by someone in this thread wasn't it? Clearly it's the only FAQ question that made it through. I just can't recall how it was asked. Anyone know? Would like to know I'm not wasting time when raising rules questions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As in was it sent to a specific email address?
Sgt. Cortez wrote: To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.
Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points
They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...
Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Death Guard Havoc do the Special weapon spam a bit better.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.
Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points
They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...
Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Death Guard Havoc do the Special weapon spam a bit better.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.
Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points
They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...
Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Death Guard Havoc do the Special weapon spam a bit better.
In a CAD they aren't troops though.
True, but there's no reason not to fill your Heavy support with Havocs if you really want the Special Weapons, Just about everything else in Heavy Support can be added in through a formation if you really need it.
So if I want to go Night Lords, what should I be building up?
I'm guessing many Raptors in MSU configuration (two meltas or two flamers seems to be the gist, plus the possibility of a power maul). Bikers was mentioned as well. How many, and what kind of loadout?
Is there anything else I should be looking to pick up for them? Or just bikers, raptors, rinse, repeat?
Jimsolo wrote: So if I want to go Night Lords, what should I be building up?
I'm guessing many Raptors in MSU configuration (two meltas or two flamers seems to be the gist, plus the possibility of a power maul). Bikers was mentioned as well. How many, and what kind of loadout?
Is there anything else I should be looking to pick up for them? Or just bikers, raptors, rinse, repeat?
The terror pack formation gives LD penalties to enemies within 12" of heldrakes. Stacks with NL and raptor talon bonuses. Break non fearless enemies with ease.
Captyn_Bob wrote: The Alpha legion detachment question was raised by someone in this thread wasn't it? Clearly it's the only FAQ question that made it through. I just can't recall how it was asked. Anyone know? Would like to know I'm not wasting time when raising rules questions.
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Stackable refers to receiving multiple benefits. So you can't get two units coming back from one being wiped out, but you can still have two chances (from the two separate rules) to bring back one unit. It's fairly obvious if you think about it, otherwise there's no point to the Insurgency Force rule.
It's just like casting psychic powers from different sources. You can try multiple times but unless otherwise stated the benefits don't stack.
Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.
lessthanjeff wrote: Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.
Do they have to roll to see if they get those bonuses? If not then it's a different situation altogether.
lessthanjeff wrote: Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.
Do they have to roll to see if they get those bonuses? If not then it's a different situation altogether.
Orks also got decurion bonuses that duplicate the core formation bonuses. So, it's not that obvious. It might just be a rule that doesn't work yet. There might be some more cultist formations that can be added later on though.
lessthanjeff wrote: Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.
Do they have to roll to see if they get those bonuses? If not then it's a different situation altogether.
Orks also got decurion bonuses that duplicate the core formation bonuses. So, it's not that obvious. It might just be a rule that doesn't work yet. There might be some more cultist formations that can be added later on though.
Hardly, that would mean reprinting the same decurion with more options. Unless they decide to cross pollinate formations, which wouldn't be the strangest thing they've done.
What makes it different in your mind? They seem like fairly similar situations to me. Their detachment and the core formation within the detachment give the same effect making it rather pointless to have on both and not letting them stack in any way.
I'm hoping they change their mind and make it more clear that you can at least get two tries for the respawn, but saying GW doesn't make a pointless rule like that for the detachment doesn't seem to be the case based on other similar examples.
Had my first game as death guard against guard. I managed to eek out a victory.
What i learned was that first off was that the power weapons aren't worth it on the unit champions, but If i have to take a power weapon on my unit champions its going to be an axe. I have a hard time trying to accept the ocost for a power axe, let alone a fist. When my chaos lords used them they did no damage at all with the exception of a single dead tank. I can't justify 25 points on a one wound model that may not even get to swing, even with FNP. Plus i get an extra attack bonus with the axe, unlike if i would have taken a fist on the unit champions.
The raptor talon felt more like a suicide unit. Point them at what you want destroyed, and if they don't get annihilated from all the incoming fire when they've chewed up said target all the better. Havocs managed to draw fire from battlecannons. Aside from that they were meh.
All in all i do like the new rules, but i will make some changes for the future.
So for my Night Lords bikers, what's the smart move? Just 3 man squads with 2 special weapons and maybe a power weapon on the champ? Or should I have more guys?
I'd run them at 3 man with 2 special guns (maby lightning claw) solo, and 5 man with 2 special guns (melta) and lightning claw as bodyhuards for a lord.
I would go for 2 special weapons and a combi weapon, if your bikes get into close combat they will most likely get shrecked unless you planned them to be close combat. i would go with 2 meltas and a combi melta
So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)
I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.
pepsuber wrote: I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.
Aside from Daemon Summoning their basically just pre-Traitor Legion CSMs, so they're pretty bad in the scheme of things.
pepsuber wrote: I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.
Aside from Daemon Summoning their basically just pre-Traitor Legion CSMs, so they're pretty bad in the scheme of things.
It's summon or bust.
They have free VotLW and get Crusader in their detachment. Not all bad but definitely the worst off.
Hmm, has anybody used berzerkers in a hounds of abaddon formation? They may not have built in axes, but they don't really need them tbh. 10 zerkers will reliably kill 5 termies, assuming they don't also have feel no pain that is. It's only barely a wound more than normal csm do, but the zerker champion is almost guaranteed to wound with all his attacks if you give him a claw and they're fearless so they wouldn't need an attached lord to attack high value targets.
Typically I avoid putting points into them, but it might not be a bad option when using that formation. A unit of five is too small to do anything against harder units, but ten could be useful.
It is, but the question is whether it's less of a tax as a naked 5 man or as a 10 man with some gear on the champ? the 5 man version is cheaper but not much use, the 10 man could do some damage at least.
Id say it depends on your list. If you are starved for points like I am then you can only run 5 and keep them on a out of sight objective or something. If you have more leway of course 10 would be best. Forget the axes, they are a trap.
Played two 2k games with my WE against my friend's IG. Butcherhorde vs CAD I believe. He had some psykic powers, Pask, plenty of bodies in the way, a defense line, and like nine tanks. My list was a Maelstrom of Gore + three rhinos, three chaos lords on juggers with spawn escorts for two of them, and two deamon princes.
He was able to remove one threat per turn and slowed me down as much as he could, but turn one and two units starting slamming into units. With a little more strategy on my end I could have really laid the hurt on him. Basically the Deamon Prince and Glaive Lord started demolishing one side of his line, but the Burning Brand Lord and AoBF Lord got separated and the Brand lord got blown to bits. The Black Mace Deamon Prince also died to Pask turn one, but someone was going to die regardless. The Berzerkers had Power Axes and did some good work chopping down Guardsmen, but they were just Guardsmen. AoBF and Brand Lords had five spawn escorts each that took my friend way more shooting then he would have liked to deal with, including pie plates a plenty. My three Rhinos happily stayed on objectives getting me points for 35 points a piece. Red Rain and the +3 charge distance didn't help those games but they kept my friend sweating.
Overall I see this as the best way to run World Eaters so far: multiple huge threats. When I tried to MSU it didn't work well since the legion has no defensive ability beyond vanilla marines. The Warband could also work, you'd just be using Bikes and Termies as escort units instead of Spawn in order to get the most bang for your buck.
I was thinking about trying a horde style emperor's children army to maximize the value on icons of excess, but after doing the math 20 MOS Marines with icon of excess are more expensive than 20 MON marines with no icon and the later are more durable against most things :/ This isn't even going into the fact that 20 man squads is where the icon is most cost efficient and that MON marines are superior at every number of squad members.
I'm starting to think that mark of slaanesh is over costed at 2pts or Mark of Nurgle is undercoated especially with deathguard chapter tactics. (internally speaking considering how powerful other codexes are compared to ours)
MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.
I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.
andysonic1 wrote: MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.
I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.
I've been having allot of trouble with emperor's children, there Decurion being random also doesn't help, since you can't build a strategy around it.
The +1 initiative implies close combat but to get a close combat weapon (so you are decent) you either have to pay 2 pts making your basic marines 17pts each (unacceptably costly) or you have to ditch the bolter which makes them terrible on the turn you get out of the rhino. I've been thinking of using dreadclaws but they're 100pts each and are incredibly costly especially just to get marines into combat.
One thing that annoys me the most however is the lack of ap2 weapons that synergies with mark of slaanesh, nurgle doesn't care because they hit last anyway and can just take a power fist while khorne gets the axe of blind fury, even tzeentch gets an ap2 at initiative weapon. Would it have hurt to have given Emperor's children a phoenix spear artifact over one of the absolute useless ones like the endless grin :/ (The most useless artifact I have ever seen in the game)
Edit: I probably should chill out no need to start ranting, maybe I'll try taking a kakaphoni in my slaanesh daemon army to add some ranged firepower.
andysonic1 wrote: MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.
I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.
EC and Noise marines... the Initiative 5 is a part of their defensive advantage; against most MEQs they swing first. I agree that the lack of a weapon to take advantage of that improved initiative is a problem. Their sonic weapons that ignore cover are indispensable against most enemies.
andysonic1 wrote: MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.
I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.
So no icon and no noise blaster ?
I have no answers except keep experimenting. I don't play EC, I play WE, and it's taking me weeks to figure out what works and what doesn't with my own legion.
Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.
) do profit from World Eaters because of the Talisman of Burning Blood (The unit gets the +3" move, what type of unit is not
) but funny nonetheless when paired with Terrify & Psychic Shriek. Having
