Much like the 22-odd pages of retardation that was the Muties-are-awesome thread, I struggle to believe that people aren't honestly trolling when I hear crap like this. Yes, if peaple want to use the mecha-dragon, they can (and should!), but there's a reason why you shouldn't be bothering with the Hades, and that reason is the Baleflamer.

You want AA? D3 Vector strikes on rear armour at Str7 AP2 ignores cover is better than 4x BS3 shots against front/side that don't ignore cover, especially when you can then also fire a baleflamer into something else on the other side of your target.

You want side shots on AV11 vehicles? Vector strike is giving you 2/3rds of the same damage by hitting rear 10 instead and ignoring cover while having a 1/6th chance to explode while putting the baleflamer into another vehicle.

Unless you're playing nothing but hammer and anvil or going first against a refused flank every game then I'm not sure how your FF is out of range. 36" + 6" move is a fair distance.

While a Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for certain and can possibly grab linebreaker and control/contest an objective by going into hover, a FF will happily control an objective all game in your own DZ too, while a Baledrake can hover just as well as a Hadesdrake (provided it doesn't get targetted since it's actually dangerous).

As for your FF doing poorly and suffering critical existance failure every game, I'm not sure what to tell you, other than your opponents probably think it's dangerous enough to target early and repeatedly while they don't give two hoots about your Hadesdrake. Mine (FF) probably lives about 50% of my games and despite occassional boughts of me not being able to roll dice and missing with all 8 shots, he'll occassionally produce a miracle too and drop a Leviathan or Land Raider in 1 round or just solidly plink away at vehicular targets of opportunity all game or force AV12/13 skimmers to jink on threat of not rolling like a chump. A Hadesdrake is never going to manage those things (other than missing 8 shots in a row) with half the shots and being off the board for 1-3 turns.

As for the hades getting rear armour, unless your opponent is criminally stupid, you're going to struggle to get more than 1, maybe 2 rear armour shots a game. Yes, the remainder are likely to be side armour which is often better than front, but

"But muh mobility!" Again, a Baledrake can do just the same, while turbo-boosting bikers or rhinos can do a pretty passable immitation for a fraction of the points.

I honestly can't think of a single situation when I could think to myself that I was glad I took a Hadesdrake. While "Making its points back" is probably not the correct phrasing these days, "being worth its points" means much the same thing most of the time and is much more apt. The Hadesdrake just flat out isn't worth 170 points. Hell, I doubt I'd consider it at 140-150 points. It's a bad buy and anyone would be better served by buying almost anything else in the book for those points instead of a hadesdrake and that's without even considering if FW is legal accepted in your meta where the fire raptor makes a Hadesdrake look like even more of a joke than it already is. Polite reminder - The Hadesdrake is a bad buy in the base CSM 'dex. That's a special level of fail reserved for possessed, muties and thousand sons there, but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I assure you it's not trolling. It's the reality of playing on dense urban boards with significant LOS blocking terrain and narrow streets. As I said before I'm not saying this is for everyone, I'm saying this is the one exception to the rule in response to the insistence that there isn't one.

I like the Forgefiend and I like baleflamer Heldrakes... in general I will take them over the hades Heldrake, I just like to compliment those two with a hades Heldrake. As you point out the Forgefiend will be plinking and relying on luck to take out different units. In general this leaves a unit with only a few remaining hull points. Using the hades Heldrake allows me to mop up and the Forgefiend to move on to other targets, rather than wasting its few turns of life over-killing a vehicle.

You know what compliments a Baledrake and Forgefiend better? Another one one those units! Remember the math I showed for how much better the Forgefiend handles armor? Now you get double that!
I also love you say that the Forgefiend is relying on luck when the Heldrake won't be out until T2 earliest and has less shots to work with. Unbelievable. Seriously. Keep this trash out of this thread please so we can discuss the good things in the codex.

 Drasius wrote:
*snip*

but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I think, taken as an auxiliary choice, they may get some? I'm building a Vectorium - I think they'll get the 18" cloud of flies (stealth) bonus?

So +1 to Jink

Please dont turn this into another "Mutilators are awesome" thread. I cant take it. I love the Heldrake but i dont have one anymore since its so hard to transport.

Let's keep it polite folks.

And by folks, I mean Drasius.

zerosignal wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
*snip*

but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I think, taken as an auxiliary choice, they may get some? I'm building a Vectorium - I think they'll get the 18" cloud of flies (stealth) bonus?

So +1 to Jink

And when you are finally allowed Blight Drones they already have shrouded, meaning they'll be better off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also don't forget that you're taking the Forgefiends in the Warpack, meaning infinite Daemonforge uses.

I glanced over into the new Eldar tactica thread and noticed something very similar happening to their lists that I saw happening to my World Eater lists: a newfound emphasis on HQs. This seems to be a pattern happening with every new book where it is beneficial to take more than the previously normal amount of HQs in your army. I've definitely been seeing that as I take upwards of 4 HQs in my World Eater lists. Has anyone been seeing the same thing in their new lists?

Our HQ selection has always been alright outside the Apostle, so it doesn't surprise me.

On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

Don't leave him exposed? Enough screening means they're either going to face that or a Juggerlord.

andysonic1 wrote:I glanced over into the new Eldar tactica thread and noticed something very similar happening to their lists that I saw happening to my World Eater lists: a newfound emphasis on HQs. This seems to be a pattern happening with every new book where it is beneficial to take more than the previously normal amount of HQs in your army. I've definitely been seeing that as I take upwards of 4 HQs in my World Eater lists. Has anyone been seeing the same thing in their new lists?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Our HQ selection has always been alright outside the Apostle, so it doesn't surprise me.

I agree with Slayer-Fan123, We have traditionally been HQ heavy for our 6th ed book since it's one of the few slots where we have actual choices to be made. On top of that, things like Eldar HQ's traditioanlly act as force multipliers and while handing out giude and prescience to your entire army is nice, sometimes they're going to want +/-1 to reserves with an autarch as well, so it makes sense to be taking 2-3 farseers (who're criminally undercosted like the rest of their dex) for psychic support and to deny invis or other key power as well as a secondary HQ like an Autarch.

andysonic1 wrote:On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

At a guess, not only because a large portion of your other available targets are locked in combat (meaning there's less of an issue of target priority), but DP's, especially khorne ones with no psychic powers to protect them, have always been 4 marine bikers strapped together which have never been that hard to kill, doubly so considering their high points cost. I'd probably suggest that you've had a pretty good run with him so far as well, to the point where it could just be a temporary thing as he's simply made the top of your opponents priority list. You'd see the same thing with any T5 4W model that's stuck on its own. When was the last time you saw a melee Hive Tyrant that wasn't embedded in a skytyrant Swarm? And he's T6 AND less points than a combat DP AND can get shrouded assured T1 AND is still ML2.

My list from last nights game for context:

Chaos Warband

- Axe of Blind Juggerlord

- 5 Termies, LCs

- 5 Bikes, meltas

- Helbrute, Rift

- 2 10 man CSM units, Meltas, Rhinos

Aux

- Spawn x5

Lords

- Glaive Deamon Prince

- Gorefather Juggerlord

- Burning Blood Termi Lord

ITC mission was Purge the Alien + 3 objectives against Grey Knights with Draigo Paladin Star. He got first turn and I had to smash through three Dreadknights that wouldn't die before dealing with Razorbacks and a Land Raider. I lost 7 to 6 due to him winning Purge the Alien because his Knights kept punching my units to death. He brought one Assassin sniper that has killed my Deamon Prince turn one every single game without fail. Granted we play on a table that doesn't grant me a lot of cover for the giant model so there's never much I can do about it.

Against other lists I do pretty great and mulch through nearly everything. Grey Knights are just my bane it seems. Still it's made me reconsider the Deamon Prince and mobile Termie unit.

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

how do you deploy him? i'v had luck recently avoiding the urge to start on the ground and flying him forwards or even deep striking might be an option. Better fighting from turn 3/4 than dieing turn 2

How is a Vindicare killing a five wound model in a single turn?

 Latro_ wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

how do you deploy him? i'v had luck recently avoiding the urge to start on the ground and flying him forwards or even deep striking might be an option. Better fighting from turn 3/4 than dieing turn 2

That's where my mind is going with it. I detest deep striking with a passion but it may be the only way to avoid death. That or always ensure there is line of sight blocking terrain I can get behind, which ITC tells you to do anyways.

 lindsay40k wrote:
How is a Vindicare killing a five wound model in a single turn?

Four wound T5 model, Strength 10 shot. I fail my 4+ jink save and die to Instant Death due to being doubled out.

The Str10 Vindicare shot only counts as such against vehicles buddy. Against any other target, it is a sniper round that deals D3 wounds

I heard they've been nerfed and turbo-penetrator rounds just do D3 damage against targets with wounds (though I also heard both versions of their rules are allowed)

andysonic1 wrote:Four wound T5 model, Strength 10 shot. I fail my 4+ jink save and die to Instant Death due to being doubled out.

andysonic1 wrote:

Fairly sure a Vindicare ignores cover anyway, so you'd be relying on your 5++, but yeah, you're both playing that wrong.

He's gunna get a whoopin next we play.

Never trust a corpse-lover

 Drasius wrote:


You want AA? D3 Vector strikes on rear armour at Str7 AP2 ignores cover is better than 4x BS3 shots against front/side that don't ignore cover, especially when you can then also fire a baleflamer into something else on the other side of your target.

You want side shots on AV11 vehicles? Vector strike is giving you 2/3rds of the same damage by hitting rear 10 instead and ignoring cover while having a 1/6th chance to explode while putting the baleflamer into another vehicle. .

Vector Strikes are Side Armor, not Rear.

I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

 koooaei wrote:
I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

how did you manage that, did you pick the model up and lob it at his flyer?

 Latro_ wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

how did you manage that, did you pick the model up and lob it at his flyer?

He had to land a stormraven at one point.

Fun one:

Played a non-competitve guy at local club last week and he was running a favoured of chaos formation mark of nurgle, foot DP, 3 units of 10 possessed footslogging!.

I was running my mech deathguard and ego aside i wasn't gonna loose the game but played it fun so charged at them to make the game entertaining for both of us.

In CC they are actually rather good!
S5 T5 2 attacks fearless, fleet he obv had 5++ and 5+ fnp. With the DP close they have 3 attacks base (and back up to I4), AP3 and re-rolling to wound.

They ended up killing my DP, all my plague marines and a few tanks! (was ahead 7-8pts by then so let him run wild).

Now the way he ran them is obv not optimised so you have to take this formation, how do you run it?

I was thinking:
Keep the nurgle theme
DP, wings, armour, beatstick atretfact, maybe lvl1-lvl2
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino

first turn rhino 6" jump out 6" and run (with the re-roll)
OT the rhinos to the flanks etc to block LoS
hope they survive
charge the next turn (maybe )

Well with the I4 they will still want grenades ie you still pretty much need spartans or kharybdis claws ie it becomes way too expensive to be viable. Fnp helps but I don't think it's enough to be standing around in the open. Not for what they cost.
So you'd still need dread claws at the very least to get into assault without being shot at or a land raider, but again, too expensive since all the units would need something like that.

My philosophy is that if you want to run possessed:
1. counts as wulfen
2. crimson slaughterer
3. world eaters decurion

Even in Butcherhorde you're running into the "CSM just do it better" problem. A unit of 10 CSM are going to survive longer than 5 Possessed regardless of 5++, plus they are going to bring Meltas / Flamers / Plasma to bare PLUS the humble pistol. THey may deal less damage in close combat, but at least they'll get there.

Nurgle possessed are surprisingly better with their new buffs 5+ feel no pain plus their daemon save means against anything ap3 or less they have a great chance of surviving, I admit their possessed rule could do with a major overhaul but can still be quite fun (just a shame all possessed didn't get the Crimson slaughter rules)
Also sucks that only black legion get the tormented formation as that one is far better than the favoured one that the other legions get

I am working up to fielding Favoured of Chaos, myself. They're pricey and way suboptimal, sure, but effectively having I5 S5 Lightning Claws and Fleet isn't terrible. I'm running Word Bearers, so the DP is a level four psyker summoning Daemons on a 3+. So, I'm thinking put them in Rhinos with Dirge Casters to rush forwards on first turn and obstruct LoS, and drop down Plaguebearers to add to target saturation. Maybe Fiends of Slaanesh to help with charges into cover. I'd like to make the Rhinos Daemonic for fluff, though of course this is really starting to overspend.

With regard to the units' Marks, I'm thinking a Nurgle one for multi-charging, a Khorne one for hitting hard, and a Tzeentch one for taking on units with high AP - if Cursed Earth comes up (good odds with a Sorceror accompanying Cultists nearby), that's a 3++.

The tormented formation didn't really get any better mind you. It's not part of the speartip (seriously, dafuk?) and still has the same issues as before. They were already doing the most damage for the least points before (as far as possessed go) and now do even more damage thanks to built in hatred, but they still as squishy as ever. They're marginally less expensive thanks to getting free VotLW, but still not cheap enough to make up for the lack of grenades, since for all their slicing prowess, they'll still hit last unless you jump through a myriad of hoops, ie not at all since they're dead. Having initiative 5 and being pretty darn choppy depending on the mark, make it really important to have some guarantee to strike at that iniative step. Which makes them super expensive glass cannons. (although less expensive than the favoured, not that it matters much)

 Roknar wrote:
The tormented formation didn't really get any better mind you. It's not part of the speartip (seriously, dafuk?) and still has the same issues as before. They were already doing the most damage for the least points before (as far as possessed go) and now do even more damage thanks to built in hatred, but they still as squishy as ever. They're marginally less expensive thanks to getting free VotLW, but still not cheap enough to make up for the lack of grenades, since for all their slicing prowess, they'll still hit last unless you jump through a myriad of hoops, ie not at all since they're dead. Having initiative 5 and being pretty darn choppy depending on the mark, make it really important to have some guarantee to strike at that iniative step. Which makes them super expensive glass cannons. (although less expensive than the favoured, not that it matters much)

Yeah it's pretty odd about not having being in the speartip, Nah I just like the tormented more since you need one less possessed squad and you get all the benefits of rending I5 and Ws5 without having to have the daemon prince within range (well having the prince means they auto pass the leadership test they have to take bit with freee VOTLW they'll pass that almost all the time) which means I can have the prince flying well ahead of everything without having to worry about keeping him close so the possessed get the formation benifits, being able get deathguard possessed (or any legion possessed apart from Black legion) with rending plus still able to roll on their chart would be pretty cool though that's just me

The tormented formation is Black Legion only, just in case you think you could use that with DG. The formation itself isn't bad, but it has a hidden cost.
If we could have taken it as a core formation it would have cut some of that cost and it might have been worth considering.
As is, you'll either need to make an army of formations or you still need a CAD to field it. Not to mention the need for a kharybdis or spartan.
There are other way to assault at iniative, but they're not as reliable and a little awkward. And since you have two paper thin units you'd really want two or at least a claw for the other unit, unless you're fine with fishing for psychic powers.
Which in turn means more hidden costs again. It's a little bit better now in that a BL CAD could be a cheaper, slightly worse TAF. I haven't checked what it would come down to with the new legion rules, but I'm pretty certain it will still leave you with possessed and little else, making the army as a whole kinda meh.

That said I'm gonna try and convince my group to allow it as a core formation lol. A couple of possessed mixed with a few spawn and auloth somewhere in the mix would make for a cool army.

What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Well the Possessed would get more of the formation benefits bit good point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Well the Possessed would get more of the formation benefits bit good point.

Not to the point of costing THAT much.

I've played vs possessed formation once. They had rhinos and stuff. In the end the dp was down to one wound after a round of shooting - even with 2+ jinks and had to hide while possessed got shot down next turn and beaten in mellee by regular sisters of battle with priests.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Theme mostly. Spawn being those who failed to remain in control and it would look cool on the table. And in case this wasn't obvious already, this would be a fun army, not a serious one.
That said, how do you reckon spawn being better 99% of the time?

Those possessed are Weapon skill and Initiative 5, Hatred, rending and have fnp due to auloth, thankfully an icon of vengeance is only 5 points for them.
So they hit better, can re-roll and hit sooner or at same time as spawn (that is to say last if you suffer terrain or so) They are better in every way except wounds per points and movement (which is partly offset by transports and crusader).
Both can wound pretty much anything with a toughness value, but possessed get the benefit of ignoring armour saves from rending with hatred and the ability to threaten all the way up to and including av14.

If you give them MoN, they have the same toughness as base spawn but with a better save (two actually) plus fnp, so not that different from 3 wounds with no protection given how they are just as hard to wound in the first place (more so in combat due to WS, nvm I 5) but now getting two chances to save. MoK gives them at least 4 attacks on the charge vs their 5 on average but with re-rolls and wounding on 2+ most likely. And the Icon actually works well for wiping units with crusader (which they would have in this homebrew scenario). Basically their are similar, with spawn having an edge on defense and mobility and possessed on offense and anti vehicle, both being able to deal with just about any unit.

Spawn have at minimum 3 attacks on the charge and 3 wounds at T6 with no save is better than one wound at T5/3+/5++/5+++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget the sheer speed Spawn have.

Even when you don't play Nurgle it's hard to pass up the number of wounds and attacks Spawn have, plus their 12 inch move. They're jut flat out better than Possessed.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Even when you don't play Nurgle it's hard to pass up the number of wounds and attacks Spawn have, plus their 12 inch move. They're jut flat out better than Possessed.

The possessed can be Obsec in the warband formation and don't take up a formation slot if that's important to you for the event or game you're doing.

Nurgle and Slaanesh possessed can be interesting in that respect, with built in FNP. World Eaters Possessed get the pre-game 2D6 move and so could be in a decent position as well.

The Spawn probably more easily fit into most armies with a killy bike or Jugger-lord, but Spawn vs Legion Possessed are not as no-brainer as a Hades vs Bale drake I think.

Spawn are cheaper, faster, tougher, auto fearless, provide the best bodyguard and can do some pretty good damage. Possessed needs a rhino dedicated to them or any other transport, they can also be shot to death. i dont know but T6 spawn with 5 models and 3 wounds each for 180pts sounds pretty good to me.

That's with MoN though, compared to base they're pretty close and cost about the same at 30 to 32-ish though it's hard to factor in auloth since that get's cheaper the more units/models are hit and giving the vehicle pinning is nice touch too.
At range it's same toughness vs -/-/- or 3+/5++/5+++ not counting cover that is (in which case spawn win hands down), in melee they get hit less due to I5/6 and then still have their 3+/5++/5+++. And rarely due to WS5, but I suppose those units aren't putting up much of a fight anyway). Not disagreeing though that T6 makes the spawn quite a bit tougher, which still isn't all that expensive really. Just saying MoN possessed with fnp aren't THAT much squishier compared to spawn.

While attack wise they both generate about the same number of hits if we assume 3 attacks on possessed and 5 on spawn, few more if you take MoK posessed. But the wounds generated will sometimes be Ap2 or Ap3 with possessed and they hit sooner, with them occasionally generating more hits due to the +1 attack mutation which is ever so slightly better than re-rolling the d6 . Both have the same chance of shred, either gaining outright shred or due to poison re-roll and S5. Both will wound on 3+ though unless you take MoK.
And the icon gives them a little extra chance to wipe a unit. And they get the occasional boon, which possessed don't get.

The mobility is really what sets them apart and what makes the spawn so much cheaper. Possessed need a vehicle not only to make up for their speed but also their grenades. Not to mention relying on Auloth to make up for their lack of wounds, which won't be around forever. Though on the plus side, if your opponent is trying to take out that, your other units aren't being shot at.
With an (appropriate) vehicle (aka not a rhino) they'll move faster than spawn and can't be shot at all until they reach combat. I mean they'd have crusader but that doesn't really compare to being beasts....which also have crusader.
Unfortunately "appropriate" in this case means around 300 points which is another 10 spawn or slightly less but all with marks.

Formation possessed with fnp can compare to base spawn while being able to take marks for the same cost...if you're fine with taking a kharybids or spartan as a transport anyway (which in my case would be an excuse to get me a kharybdis, so yes for me). Possessed get a little more out of psychic buffs like warpfate, cursed earth or eventeh nurgle buffs, but I hate playing that lottery.
If you are taking that risk and relying on psychic powers though, the mobility really doesn't matter as long as you have a unit close to whatever you want to assault. Vehicles are faster than spawn and possessed would let you take rhinos as soulswitch beacons in that case. Or ghost storming them for dirge casters. Or blocking LoS.

Also, and maybe I should have started with this. Don't forget this is in perspective of the tormented as a core formation. The possessed would go after high priority targets while the spawn go after everything else plus the spawn would allow the possessed to not worry about grenades as much and could eat overwatch

I would say it's pretty close to being no-brainer. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to make Possessed worth their points, meanwhile stock Spawn happily soak up wounds and dish out plenty of S5 attacks. When you add in Marks things just get even more clear Spawn are the victor.

Ugh I shouldn't have brought up the idea to have the tormented as core formation lol. Let's just drop that hypothetical scenario before this turns into a mutilator thread.
Generally speaking Spawn are better because they're so much easier to use. You don't need a formation and despite not having a save or fancy rules, most of the time you can send them vs pretty much any unit and they'll be able to deal with it just fine or at least keep it busy. Possessed like those in the tormented formation do more damage, but generally it's not worth going the extra mile when spawn can do the same in maybe half a turn longer without any of the headaches.
That much we all agree on. I wasn't trying to turn this into a possessed vs spawn thing.
I was simply responding to the 99% better comment when you're already set on taking possessed. They can live side by side doing different things. (tormented) Possessed aren't simply worse spawn. They can attack different units while still complementing each other. that was all. They're still not worth taking as a unit unless you WANT to take them.

^^^ i get you dude, hey believe what you want to believe and if you make possessed work then thats great!

Blood of Kittens finally put their World Eaters review up: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/03/02/world-eaters-premature-traitor-legion-ranking/

After four games of ITC against my buddy's Gray Knights, I was actually in the process of adding a Lost and the Damned into my list. Glad to see I'm not the only one looking at doing that. Honestly, I'm finding that more bodies = better games and fewer bodies = dead models. My initial thoughts of going full HQ spam has not been successful, those units of Spawn and Juggerlords dying in CC and shooting quickly, meanwhile my MSU Havocs and 10 man CSM units constantly do the work the Juggerlords are supposed to. It's becoming clear to me that HQs are NOT the way to go and bodies dishing out buckets of dice in CC and ranged, regardless of power, is waaaaay better.

My next list will have lots of Cultists, Havocs, and CSM. Time to go full BWAAAHG FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

drop grav in a chaos list?

Yes.. I can see that working.

Depends on how they can be taken.

 Latro_ wrote:
Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

That could be a little wild.

 Latro_ wrote:
Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

I also saw this. If this is how we get grav in chaos than so be it. I wouldn't mind bringing on a single formation for it, plus Cypher is awesome.



This...actually kind of excites me...maybe some Fallen will be joining my World Eaters...

If they're supposed to be like Angel Veterans, they basically take two Specials and a Heavy at 10 dudes. Not really worth the grav.

And combi grav, and grav pistols.

And a cheap drop pod, which could be handy to weighting two of our overpriced pods to drop turn 1

Hmm Kanluwen posted a picture of the index in the news thread and it has cypher as well as fallen and fallen champions. I wonder how those last two differ. doesn't the existing dataslate have fallen champions be chosen?

Could be a hq choice maybe?

Well until more leaks happen, there isn't too much point in trying to come up with strategies for a unit we know little about.

Well, this looks great, I always wanted to do my Dark Vengeance guys as Fallen, fingers crossed GW accounted for that (not uncommon IME) desire.

Ok looks like fallen champions is the formation, same as existing one but with DA vets instead of chosen.



It's not looking like it's possible to take fallen without cypher.

The thing that hurts the whole battle brothers is that they're CTA with daemons which depending on how they work won't be as efficient as allying with daemons.

I'm building an Iron Warriors force but fancy adding a 2nd legion to run with them at times.

What would the best ally legion be to complement them?

Hi guys. I'm running a Death guard vectorium warband. I almost always use a lord on bike with/or a sorcerer on bike, in a unit with spawn or bikes. I've got 10 nurgle bikers and 5 nurgle spawn.

I'm still pretty new to playing with a sorcerer, do you have any tips on how i should kit out my sorcerer and how i should play him? What powers should i roll on, and how to utilize them?

@loopstah it depends my iron warriors were an assualt siege force so they had lots of berzerkers from the world eaters that act as mercenaries. But I also had another company that was all about shooting and they had deathguard allies and i considered them as Iron warriors because of their bionics. Those two you can really go for but you can also do emperors children for some shooting.

@Killerpenguin I would leave him unmarked which allows him to join any unit. I also recommend going to ML3 and give him a spell familiar. I personally like to put him in a bike with a force axe. I think force swords are pretty useless and Force staves lack the ap. For your powers, it really depends but with the new psychic powers from traitor legions i would definitely go for the one where you can reroll failed saves its better than all the other disciplines, Other disciplines would be telepethy for invis and shrouding + psychic shriek and biomancy for that beautiful endurance (all of which are competitve and fluffy for nurgle) But remember you will need some extra psychic dice from somwhere else 3 dice + winds of the warp isnt enough to put out 3 powers in one phase s i suggest maybe ally daemons or put in another sorcerer. Have fun!

IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT

@-v10mega It's true that a Marked character has restrictions on what units they join, but for a Death Guard army this is a double nonconcern - the model is obliged to take MoN, and is not going to have any Slaaneshi, Khornate or Tzeentchian allies to want to join.

@killerpenguin I second ML3 and spell familiar, do not try Daemonology with him as it will kill him on turn 2. He is obliged to take at least one Nurgle power, so if you take powers from another discipline bear in mind you'll not get its Primaris for free. Biomancy is pretty good - solid synergy with him being in a mobile attack unit. Likewise Sinistrum. If you do take one of these, there's things to be said for not only taking the Force Axe but also replacing his pistol with a Power Sword or Lance - this will enable him to benefit from the I boost from Warp Speed or strike in initiative with Iron Arm, and to benefit from both with Diabolic Strength.

@ Loopstah An Allied Formation consisting of a Word Bearers Sorceror with Palanquin & Scripts of Erebus and a blob of Cultists can be interesting, easily able to summon a bunch of Horrors on the first turn and then pump out a unit of Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, Flamers or Seekers every other turn. What looks like a token holding force on setup can become a solid flank able to adapt to a range of threats.

He can ally a non-marked sorcerer ^^^
Word Bearers are not forced to take a mark and therefore can join Death guard units. Same goes with any unmarked sorcerer from other legions. His un marked sorcerer allows him to join death guard units without having to roll on the nurgle powers which are not optimal

 killerpenguin wrote:
I'm still pretty new to playing with a sorcerer, do you have any tips on how i should kit out my sorcerer and how i should play him? What powers should i roll on, and how to utilize them?

ML3 and a spell familiar is virtually mandatory, Sigil is handy is you expect him to get into CC often or if you face a bunch of ignores cover ap1/2/3 guns. Swords are trash, Staves can be very useful, especially when rolling biomancy because Iron Arm makes you AP2 and you're still swinging at initiative while warp speed gives you the volume of attacks to break through most armour saves and you're now I7. Better when you get both of them though. Axes are generally the answer when not taking Bio IMHO, but striking last can often mandate the purchase of a sigil to ensure you survive long enough to get your attacks in. If you're running a vectorium, then you've got no choice but to take MoN, but otherwise, being on a bike is usually sufficient to avoid being ID'ed and the boosted mobility and jink means that you're almost always better off taking the bike anyway.

As for powers, that's a long and complicate answer to a common and simple question.
- The simple and easy answer is to roll 1 on Nurgle (because you have to when taking a mark as the DG vectorium forces you to) and then roll the other 2 on Telepathy looking for shrouded or invis and swapping out for shriek if you don't get them. This is the default response when you're not sure what to do because invis and shrouded don't really require any tactical brilliance to use and shriek is the best witchfire around.
- Biomancy is a nice way to both boost your survivability (probably not something to worry about too much as a DG player) but also boost your killyness via things like enfeeble (great for IDing T5 with powerfists or T6 with Str10 or just piling wounds onto T3/4 stuff with bolters), iron arm and warpspeed while even lowly old smite is still a decent primaris. The only trash power on Bio is Haemorrage, so just swap that for smite if you roll it. I'm assuming that you're making a spawnstar or biker star with your lord as well, and I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is to remove Enduranced Nurgle Spawn before they start really wrecking face with an attached lord and sorc.
- Pyro isn't the worst thing ever, especially if you didn't buy a sigil already, and fire shield can stack with stealth for a 3+ cover without jinking while also making it harder for people to charge you or get away and there's some decent light infantry mind-dakka available too. Probably wise to skip it unless you have a cunning plan.
- I wouldn't bother trying to summon with a 2W non-daemon caster, so maelific is basically out.
- Sanctic can be a boon because there's a couple of rather handy options here. Sanctuary and hammerhand are both nice options while being WC1, and banishment is also a solid choice when facing off against daemon opponents while gate is an emergency button and has won more than 1 game due to last turn objective shenanigans. Purge is trash, but if you don't mind throwing 3 dice at cleansing flame, it can work absolute wonders against a wide variety of targets due to ignores cover and ap4 while the shear volume of hits can often glance out multiple vehicles with AV11/10 weaknesses. Vortex is pretty suicidal, but against the right targets, can be a game changer. Just accept that you're going to peril and throw 6-8 dice at it and pray you roll a 5 or 6 on the perils chart.
- As for the new powers, a lot of people rate Ectomancy, but I think you're better served elsewhere.
- Sinistrum has warp fate and death hex which are enough justification for rolling there against many armies and if you're intending on punching things, diabolic strength is 2/3rds of iron arm and warp speed at once. There's also a huge amount of milage to be had out of warp lure too since it can effectively shut down an enemy psycher for a turn and when they need to perils just to cast invis, that can be a gamechanger.
- Heretech is pretty win if you suddenly come up against more armour than you have AV to deal with and the ability to also boost your own tanks and transports. Fleshmetal hide will also make your opponent groad because T7 bikes or spawn are no joke.
- Geomortis is pretty junk IMHO unless you roll unearthly anathema or worldwrithe, then it's really, really good, but I'd rather have my psycher have at least 1 power worth casting a turn, and geomortis just doesn't have that assurance unlike virtually every other discipline since 2 great powers and a trash primaris just isn't good enough.

What to take when basically comes down to what your opponent takes and what sort of army you have. Got loads of vehicles and so does your opponent? Heretek is probably a great choice, especially since you're already running T6 bikers and fleshmetal makes you immune to str3. Enemy relying heavily on daemons? Sanctic for banishment, even if you roll your second power on something else is a solid plan. Bio is always an option, but endurance loses a large amount of lustre with few multi-wound things who already have FNP and can't be doubled out (read: T6 Nurgle Bikers), though few is the time when I haven't gotten milage out of enfeebling something (doubling out a riptide with a vindicator is glorious).Facing an enemy deathstar? Sinistrum for Death Hex and warp lure is great while warp fate can keep your own deathstar sticking around longer. Can't reliably hurt something via traditional methods or are going to be shot off the table in short order? Telepathy for shrouded/invis/shriek is always a solid choice, and don't discount how crucial dominate can be since even Ld 10 is failing that check ~10% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lindsay40k wrote:@-v10mega It's true that a Marked character has restrictions on what units they join, but for a Death Guard army this is a double nonconcern - the model is obliged to take MoN, and is not going to have any Slaaneshi, Khornate or Tzeentchian allies to want to join.

@killerpenguin I second ML3 and spell familiar, do not try Daemonology with him as it will kill him on turn 2. He is obliged to take at least one Nurgle power, so if you take powers from another discipline bear in mind you'll not get its Primaris for free. Biomancy is pretty good - solid synergy with him being in a mobile attack unit. Likewise Sinistrum. If you do take one of these, there's things to be said for not only taking the Force Axe but also replacing his pistol with a Power Sword or Lance - this will enable him to benefit from the I boost from Warp Speed or strike in initiative with Iron Arm, and to benefit from both with Diabolic Strength.

@ Loopstah An Allied Formation consisting of a Word Bearers Sorceror with Palanquin & Scripts of Erebus and a blob of Cultists can be interesting, easily able to summon a bunch of Horrors on the first turn and then pump out a unit of Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, Flamers or Seekers every other turn. What looks like a token holding force on setup can become a solid flank able to adapt to a range of threats.

-v10mega wrote:He can ally a non-marked sorcerer ^^^
Word Bearers are not forced to take a mark and therefore can join Death guard units. Same goes with any unmarked sorcerer from other legions. His un marked sorcerer allows him to join death guard units without having to roll on the nurgle powers which are not optimal

Remember that if you're primary CSM, you can't ally another CSM faction, we're not vanilla marines! If you REALLY want unmarked sorcs, then grab a Cyclopia Cabal of 3x black legion sorcs and call it a day, especially that VotLW isn't a tax anymore. Edit: You can take another CAD or a formation, obviously, but not an actuall allied detatchment.

^^ i didnt think of that lol. But you can ally crimson slaughter as they are a diff. faction or black legion. But i think he wants a DG sorcerer so he is good to go with your advice.

Nope for Crimson Slaughter either. They're as much CSM as the rest of em. Remains to be seen if we can do anything interesting with fallen angels though since they now become a proper faction of their own.

Crimson Slaughters are a diff. faction that chaos space marines. they can ally them in.

Can you quote the rule for that? Is it in the new edition of their book?

No they're not. It's a supplement for codex chaos space marines. That means it has the same faction as it's parent dex, that is csm. There's nothing in the supplement either that says otherwise.
Unless I missed some kind of faq, which wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it in this case. In fact their formations also still have the csm faction symbol.

 Roknar wrote:
No they're not. It's a supplement for codex chaos space marines. That means it has the same faction as it's parent dex, that is csm. There's nothing in the supplement either that says otherwise.
Unless I missed some kind of faq, which wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it in this case. In fact their formations also still have the csm faction symbol.

3

from the supplement 'A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa). '

Can you give a page number, cuz I have the book in hand and I'm not seeing that anywhere.

That's defining an alliance relationship, not saying that they count as their own faction. The purpose is for having something like a CAD of one and a formation from the other then they will be battle brothers with each other and not suffer from rules like "one eye open".

Im sure Chaos Cads can ally with Crimson Slaughterers i have done it many times. Let me see...

You absolutely can run a CAD of both in the same way that Tyranids can run two CADs from their codex. You can run multiple detachments of the same faction.

Allied detachments, however, are a little more restricted depending on which rules or tournament format you play with.

Found it

Right, but again what I'm saying is that doesn't say that they are a different faction. It says if you have a detachment of CSM and a detachment of Crimson Slaughter then you don't have to worry about "one eye open" and you can cast blessings on each other, etc. It's defining a relationship between crimson slaughter detachments with CSM detachments which is different from saying they are their own faction.

I think what you're confused by was someone saying you can't "ally them in" which is true if you meant to take an allied detachment of Crimson Slaughter since they both count as the same faction. If you meant "ally them in" as take a different CAD or formation then that's fine.

I see what you are saying.

Yea that's definitely not in the physical book. Just another example of why they should have chosen the name for an allied detachment better.

Its on the Crimson Slaughter book. I used to be able to ally Crimson Slaughter with CSM just fine. I swear their is a rule for that.

In other news, I nearly tabled a Grey Knight player in test ITC games yesterday with the following World Eater list:

Butcherhorde

- Chaos Warband

- - Juggerlord + Axe + Sigil + Gift (unworthy rolled)

- - 1 x 3 Termi + Combi-meltas (deep striking)

- - 3 x 3 Bikes + Meltaguns

- - 3 x 5 Havocs + 4 Missile Launchers + 3 Rhinos (one with Rift)

- - 3 x 10 CSM + 2 Meltaguns + Combi-Melta + Melta Bomb

- Aux

- - 1 x 3 Spawn (Juggerlord escort)

Destroyed his Melee Knight, his two Dreadknights, and his termi unit. He had to split off his Draigo-star to snatch victory away from me which was my chance to destroy it but I made too many mistakes with unit movement. The game was extremely close throughout and if I hadn't allowed myself to turn into a deamon prince I woulda won. Terrible move on my part, plus some poor unit movement leaving an objective undefended. I used to be scared of Knight Titans but Missile Launcher and Melta spam make short work of any armor regardless of power. Fearless makes the CSM a powerful tarpit, Objective Secure Rhinos sit on Objectives and allow me to move my units away, Juggerlord in the Warband lets me roll a ton on the boon table with no downsides.

I am very happy about this list and will be taking it to the local tournament this weekend. These's a few leftover points I need to spend somewhere (20~). We'll see what I end up with.

Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

With how close my units are to the enemy units at all times I think that would be more a liability, or they'd get one shot off before I was too close for comfort. I don't think that's worth the points. Now, combi-melta / plasma on the other hand...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

 Drasius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

If someone wants an objective they'll kill the Rhino. Buying the Launcher simply makes them contribute more than simply sitting there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

If someone wants an objective they'll kill the Rhino. Buying the Launcher simply makes them contribute more than simply sitting there.

35 points for an objective secured hunk of metal (plastic) that MUST be dealt with or I'm going to keep getting points. I also hide one - two of them in cover or behind building on top of objectives, making the launcher useless in that situation. As soon as they make it to their objective markers, which they do turn one, I never need to move or shoot them again. They do their job just existing, they don't need to contribute any more than that.

going back to the fallen had a look on the GW preorders site and the fallen mini box clearly has loyalist weps:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/The-Fallen

storm bolters, shields so looks to be DA vets rules....

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Fallen-Champions

Not sure if one of those marines has grav or an oldermark meltagun, going on the side of melta

infact the desc specifically lacks grav:

a set of 10 Mark IV Space Marines, with an impressive selection of armaments including bolters, missile launcher, heavy bolter, chainswords, power swords, power fists, plasma pistols, lightning claw blades, combi flamer, melta and plasma guns, a melta bomb and a set of combat blades! These miniatures also include ammo packs, holstered bolt pistols and a selection of frag and krak grenades. Supplied with ten Citadel 32mm Round bases and a transfer sheet;

and a set of 5 Fallen, including an upgrade sprue to customise your unit. There are also plenty of spare components that can be used to convert your other multi-part plastic Space Marine squads into Fallen. These are supplied with 5 Citadel 25mm

It's literally a Photoshop of the DA vets from green to black.

The models won't come with grav but DA vets do have rules for them. Soo the rules writers could have gone either way.

Lame, 10 more points for the privilege of a new faction. If they don't come with Grav they won't be seeing any more table time then they do now.

At least we still have Alpha Legion.

It seems unlikely they'll come with Grav on account of basically being Heresy-era Dark Angels and generally lacking access to modern armouries. It hurts my purse to say it, but they're a faction that would probably be best represented by a Forge World range that could give them a decent gamut of HH toys to bring to town. Ideally they'd have things in common with both loyalists (to the Warmaster) and corpse-lovers so that each of us has some concrete benefit to taking some, and at the very least allow for the Dark Vengeance minis to be employed as is. Fingers crossed for the rules drop on Saturday.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lame, 10 more points for the privilege of a new faction. If they don't come with Grav they won't be seeing any more table time then they do now.

At least we still have Alpha Legion.

They do get infiltrate, so i guess they are pretty much alpha legion chosen... meh

Hopefully they get some badass rules. If not KDK all the way boys and girls!

What's KDK have to do with it?

Fallen Rules, in Spanish.

http://www.lavozdehorus.com/nuevas-unidades-angeles-caidos/

Basically, they are Chosen with Stubborn and ATSKNF for +2 ppm. They don't have access to grav, just the standard Chosen loadouts. And it doesn't say anything about drop pods.

The Fallen formation is 1 - 3 squads of Chosen plus Cypher. So this is pretty much the existing dataslate, unless Cypher himself gets some new special rules.

I could see using the Formation just to get Cypher, but that's about it.

Do they still have 5 point power fists? lol

 andysonic1 wrote:
What's KDK have to do with it?

For a more efficient ally over the fallen

stewe128 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
What's KDK have to do with it?

For a more efficient ally over the fallen

I think they serve two completely different purposes. Fallen Champs provide infiltrating melta/plasma + Cypher. This could be used to eliminate a threat quickly or establish a forward base for your deployment units to move to. KDK provides Gorepack. This is great for putting up a wall of flesh between you and the enemy and also tarpitting things. These aren't the only strats, just the ones I've thought about to help my own army.

I've always liked the idea of having a "super special ops" unit in my army somewhere but World Eaters doesn't really allow that. The Fallen could, or a unit of Alpha Legion Chosen. I don't really NEED infiltrators but rule of cool and all that.

The chosen of Abaddon would be a nice little formation for that if only they had infiltrate or infiltrate wouldn't be so hard to hand out.

Hm if you roll on the generic Warlord Trait tables, there is a Trait that gives 3 infantry units Infiltrate.

It's not guranteed but there is a chance=)

Yea and if you don't get it, then the unit becomes pretty forgettable. You're expecting them to infiltrate and they aren't objective secured so there isn't much reason to get a transport for them. You can get it by including ahriman or huron, but Huron can't be taken in any legion and ahirman only for TSons, so you'd have to go without legion affiliation and even then, that kind of defeats the purpose, since the unit is fairly cheap on it's own, but now you need to pay an extra hq who, most likely, can't even join the unit, while also loosing the free boni.

It's much easier in practice to bring an alpha legion CAD if you want to infiltrate chosen. The BL formation could have been great to just kind of plug in like the cabal since it can be a single unit. Fearless, and hatred helps when you're that close up, plus you would take a sorcerer for a little extra psychic juice. But yea, AL is so much easier to do. That or the fallen.They might not have hatred and you you have to pay for cypher (not really a bad thing), but stubborn, ATSKNF and ld10 is nice too.

Hm, maybe I'll just stick with the Termis being the army cool guys. I didn't buy Red Butchers to be used as 40k Termis for nothing I suppose.

Here's one I'm scratching my head over: Missile Launchers or Autocannons for Havocs? I take three units of Havocs in my current World Eater list. I took all missile launchers in a few games and they were awesome, but they are pretty pricey.

Autocannons are better for the points. For three ML you get 4.5 Autocannons. That's 3 S8 AP3 or 3 S4 AP6 blasts, or 9 S7 AP4 shots. Quantity is its own quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That was silly wording. For four ML you get 6 Autocannons.

Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

I've noticed the quantity over quality with my army already so Autocannons it is.

Now I have 110 extra points (1850). I can take two more terminators in my termicide plus an additional spawn for my juggerlord, but that feels like a waste. I could try and find 75 points somewhere to bring another unit of CSM, or I could add combi weapons to my bikes and csm champs.

Additional question: 10 man CSM squads or 5 man CSM squads for World Eaters? The larger squads last longer and give up less VP, but can be focused down. The MSU option is harder for gunline armies to deal with and the champs can bring combi meltas, effectively bringing more weapons to the table at a cost. Thoughts?

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

It still bugs me that EC get better CC buffs than WE. Sure more attacks are always fun but going first is waaaay better.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

It still bugs me that EC get better CC buffs than WE. Sure more attacks are always fun but going first is waaaay better.

The EC thing bugs me too.

Also, Berzerkers are outclassed by World Eaters CSMs. Was surprised to learn that.

Also, Plague Marines are outclassed by Death Guard CSM when they are taken outside a Plague Colony. Doesn't seem to make sense.

Thousand Sons are still Thousand Sons. That's the worst news.

Point for point, you can still outclass all of them with massed cultists. Provided they don't die on the way to the assault.

*sigh* Dark Gods, your ways are as flummoxing as they are ruinous. Speaking specifically about Rob, Eddie and Duncan, here. It's their fault.

Well EC were always good in CC fluff wise, just in a different way. But yea, marks should have some kind of permanent effect. It sucks that MoK is only good on the turn you charge. At the very least it should have been a flat +1 attack instead of +1 attack only when you charge...or get charged I suppose , though that happens very rarely in my experience.

 Roknar wrote:
Well CC were always good in CC fluff wise, just in a different way. But yea, marks should have some kind of permanent effect. It sucks that MoK is only good on the turn you charge. At the very least it should have been a flat +1 attack instead of +1 attack only when you charge...or get charged I suppose , though that happens very rarely in my experience.

The Endless Hatred rule for Black Legion troops with VotLW lets them re-reroll all failed hits. They also get Crusader.

I think the reason I like them so much is that a) they are not outdoing some cult squad, b) they get this advantage outside the their legion-specific detachment, and c) it makes it so they actually do something better than cultists.

Well there's also the fact that BL can't actually take any of the cult units other than zerkers in their decurion lol. And the hounds actually do outclass the zerkers since they get their mark for free and zerkers don't get a discount.
Though they don't really compete in a CAD or Black crusade like they do for other legions. Except for zerkers since they are reasonably close but with CSM getting ObSec in a crusade when zerkers get nothing. Unless you want the maelstrom I suppose.

It would have been nice if they had crusader base though, rather then from the decurion. Essentially all BL got was hatred. As much as I like hatred, it just feels a bit lacking as our only thing outside of the decurion.

Thoughts on Cypher?

Hit and run
Shrouded
Eternal Warrior
And they shall no know fear
Infiltrate
Plasma shooting

Not amazing for 190 but decent toolbox.

How about in a TS terminator blob with sorcerer support and astral grimoire?

I don't understand How he's NOT amazing. He's an EW shield, gives out shrouded and Hit And Run, and the cherry on top being able to land some S7 AP2 at initiative (though that's only two of the attacks).

190 pts is quite a lot for 3 wounds with a 3+ save. But can work.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
190 pts is quite a lot for 3 wounds with a 3+ save. But can work.

He has Shrouded and EW. If you can't see the utility in that simply because there's only 3 wounds at 3+ that's honestly your loss.

Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

Nopers!

Cypher can be selected as part of the primary detachment of any armies of the imperial or chaos space marine faction. He does not use a force org slot.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

Nopers!

Cypher can be selected as part of the primary detachment of any armies of the imperial or chaos space marine faction. He does not use a force org slot.

Nopers!

CSM Legion Detachments only allow certain named characters if any. Specifically it states only certain Unique characters are allowed. So no named character named Cypher in Legion Detachments. So you have to take the Fallen Champ detachment, which just arbitrarily got 10 points more expensive base.

Hmmm that is a bit obnoxious. Depends where you have the warlord... But yeah the warlord is almost always going to want to be legion. Damn. Nuts to the formation, alpha legion can do it better.

What is their formation exactly? Assuming the benefits are nuts it could be better than Alpha Legion Chosen.

So I'm trying to debate either Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. I like the idea of Infiltrating Chosen, but the tank hunting Havoks and Obliterators are tasty (Plus having re-rollable scatter for Vindicators and Deffy is pretty decent, too). Of course I might try to run a Alpha Legion Insurgency Force with a Iron Warriors CaD on the side for the ObSec Oblits.

Been running a IW cad with lascannon havocs, melta havocs and obilts... can confirm tank hunter makes a huge difference.

As does obilt ob sec and even the 6 fnp comes in more handy than i expected

melta havocs are just evil 2d6 with a re-roll and then ofc tank hunter also works in CC so when you charge a light vehicle that 6 to glance isnt such of a punt.

Pretty sure tank hunter only requires one model in the unit to have it, so whack a char in there and he has tank hunter too which opens up some combos

Captyn_Bob wrote:Thoughts on Cypher?
...
How about in a TS terminator blob with sorcerer support and astral grimoire?

Cypher hasn't changed at all. He was OK to Meh before, he's OK to Meh now. As to being in a thousand sons force, I'm not sure I want -1 ld for my warlord, but given that you're ld10 before VotLW, it won't make any difference, but thousand sons are already expensive as all hell, taking another 190 points of bolter bait isn't going to do a whole lot, but if you really want hit and run, it's the only way to get it. Most CSM forces are generally pretty happy being in combat though. He'd do OK in a block of KDK hounds though I suspect, or really any khorne force since their mark only really works on the charge.

andysonic1 wrote:So you have to take the Fallen Champ detachment, which just arbitrarily got 10 points more expensive base.

They got 10 points more expensive because VotLW is 2 ppm for chosen and fallen went from Ld9 to Ld10, VotLW has basically been added to their base cost.

He could be pretty intersting for DG. Being able to hit and run with actual plasma on chosen would be nice. The iniative 3 could be a problem though.
Alternatively, what about BL? There's a good chance a yuranthos sorcerer could pick up fireshield, he gets 4/6 spells after all. That would give the unit he joins a 2+ cover save in the open.
Just not sure what unit that would be. 2+ spawn escort would be nice, but he's too slow for that and infiltrate isn't really viable at that point due to the cost. Unless you plan to move via spell support I guess.
The only units that would really benefit from hit and run would be melta chosen/havocs or obliterators.

 Drasius wrote:


Cypher hasn't changed at all. He was OK to Meh before, he's OK to Meh now. As to being in a thousand sons force, I'm not sure I want -1 ld for my warlord, but given that you're ld10 before VotLW, it won't make any difference, but thousand sons are already expensive as all hell, taking another 190 points of bolter bait isn't going to do a whole lot, but if you really want hit and run, it's the only way to get it. Most CSM forces are generally pretty happy being in combat though. He'd do OK in a block of KDK hounds though I suspect, or really any khorne force since their mark only really works on the charge.

I thought the new rules had made him easier to take.. but I guess not. (in fact, as he has a faction now, and hates daemons, no joining KDK hounds :( )
And the legion rules forbid names characters, which makes taking Cypher awkward. Essentially you need a warlord who is vanilla CSM, which is a big ask.

Some names come to mind.. poor neglected Fabius, who can make a buffed infantry blob which would benefit from hit and run and shrouding.
Also Huron is interesting, as he can hand out infiltrate, which Cypher can join. Could be handy,

Cypher throws out 3 very good things
Shrouded- good on stuff like Spawn, stacks well with night lords/ DG stealth.

Hit and run- good on most combat units, as you can bail out and charge back in again. World eaters especially would be fond of this. Worse than the mindveil tho.

And they Shall Know no fear, arguably better than fearless, very useful for bigger chaos units.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hit and run would be taken on Cyphers Initative 8

Thoughts on oblits...Obsec or T5 FNP?

In terms of MSU, the Iron Warriors work better to help spam OS. Otherwise Nurgle all the way.

Don't forget that ObSecBlits have Tank Hunters. A third of their Assault Cannon hits are going to Rend. That's better than a squad with six Autocannons. Heck, that's nearly even odds on penetrating a Land Raider, even on the turns your Lascannons are cooling down. I think there's even an argument to forego ObSec and pay the Warpsmith tax to double their fire rate. Put them on three Fortifications and an Objective on each fort and let rip, DS some single model Blits (or even Muties) to tag the enemy objectives, and keep enemies away from your Forts with the rest of the army - losing ObSec only matters if opponents actually get close enough to contest (i.e., within triple Flamer or double Plasma or close Melta range, hell your objectives are on elevated battlements, so 95% of units can't actually get to them without bringing it down; can a Warpsmith repair damage?). Bung a Conversion Beamer on a Fort or two to troll enemies who think they can outrange you, you can easily convert three from a Kataphron kit. Occupy it with Havocs or cheap Cultists to prevent invasion. Or fill it with Oblits and take a bunch of Geomortis to turn it into a Land Raider with firepoints. IW are amazing!

Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP. For a ten man squad it costs 50pts in all, adding 20pts if you want Melta Havocs to carry CCWs to chop up the survivors of a popped transport. That's some heavy expenditure, for the cost of upgrading two squads I could take another squad of Havocs with Autocannons. Or a competent Summoner.

I have six bikes from my KDK Goreback days. I'm on the fence about running them in my World Eaters detachment. I mean, I'll run one unit because I need to, but do I run a unit of five with double melta or do I run three units of three all with melta? So far they have mostly been ignored due to the pressure the rest of the army exerts but I've noticed that they don't do much in a fight when there's only three of them. They get their attacks off then die. A larger unit can do more damage in a fight but I would have less melta to play with.

I'v run a couple of units of 5 with 2 melta in my WE army the 2d6 really makes them into more of a solid flank than a suck it and see annoyance

Three melta bikes has always struck me as just Termicide with no DS mishaps but more limited range and a turn of travelling to get to reach a target. Not bad for scarecrowing a Land Raider or dealing with DS dreads if you can keep them safe, but unlikely to manage a deep insertion mission.

I'm no fan of Termicide, I'm back to running five termies and a burning brand lord. I think I'll take one unit of five instead of three units of three. That used to be decent as a Juggerlord escort unit, maybe I'll do that again.

"scarecrowing" ?

Additionally: the tourny I will be participating in this weekend will have superheavies. I know for a fact that an Eldar player will be bringing a Wrathknight. I do not know which one. The two Gray Knight players will be taking Knight Titans of the shooty kind. I imagine many others will be taking similar monstrosities. As a World Eaters player I feel somewhat pigeon-holed into melee even though I do it well.

By 'scarecrowing', I mean enemy heavy vehicles are afraid to get within 18" of three melta bikes. They may never fire their weapons at all, but if they keep a unit of hammernators aboard a Land Raider or a Demolisher from advancing then they're exercising space control.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Don't forget that ObSecBlits have Tank Hunters. A third of their Assault Cannon hits are going to Rend. That's better than a squad with six Autocannons. Heck, that's nearly even odds on penetrating a Land Raider, even on the turns your Lascannons are cooling down. I think there's even an argument to forego ObSec and pay the Warpsmith tax to double their fire rate. Put them on three Fortifications and an Objective on each fort and let rip, DS some single model Blits (or even Muties) to tag the enemy objectives, and keep enemies away from your Forts with the rest of the army - losing ObSec only matters if opponents actually get close enough to contest (i.e., within triple Flamer or double Plasma or close Melta range, hell your objectives are on elevated battlements, so 95% of units can't actually get to them without bringing it down; can a Warpsmith repair damage?). Bung a Conversion Beamer on a Fort or two to troll enemies who think they can outrange you, you can easily convert three from a Kataphron kit. Occupy it with Havocs or cheap Cultists to prevent invasion. Or fill it with Oblits and take a bunch of Geomortis to turn it into a Land Raider with firepoints. IW are amazing!

Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP. For a ten man squad it costs 50pts in all, adding 20pts if you want Melta Havocs to carry CCWs to chop up the survivors of a popped transport. That's some heavy expenditure, for the cost of upgrading two squads I could take another squad of Havocs with Autocannons. Or a competent Summoner.

Assault cannons are almost always the optimal weapon to fire sadly (lascannons are slightly better against AV12 though),

Warpsmiths can't have a conversion beamer (or a bike, or melta bombs, or a Sigil, or... you get the point), in fact, Beamers are a loyalist only thing outside of forgeworld.

There's no way that buying MoS and a banner for a ranged squad is worth it. The MoS is pure tax and if you're sitting at range, much of the incoming fire is going to be high enough str to ignore fnp anyway. Not to mention adding a bunch of bullet catchers who also need to pay the MoS tax. The closer you get and the more likely it is that you reach combat, the better value it becomes, unless you're facing a bunch of powerfists and such where you aren't getting you FNP anyway. If you think that you're going to get into CC though, striking first against a large portion of the games units is nice and FNP can really swing a combat, and since you're not fearless, minimising the amount of test or just the -ve modifier can be a huge benefit. Probably not enough to be of use on a CSM squad though since it's more than 1/3rd the cost of the squad to save 1/3rd of the wounds, so by simply taking the additional squads, you've got more firepower and more bodies for the times when you get hit by Str8+ which also gives you board control.

Urge to take a 20 man CSM squad rising...

 Drasius wrote:
and since you're not fearless, minimising the amount of test or just the -ve modifier can be a huge benefit.

Assuming you are talking about MoS when used with emporer's children then the MoS does give you fearless on votlw models

lindsay40k wrote:Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP...

Latro_ wrote:Assuming you are talking about MoS when used with emporer's children then the MoS does give you fearless on votlw models

lindsay40k was talking about word bearers, not EC though.

@Drasius I was referring to Rapier Conversion Beamers. Incredible synergy with Geomancers - rolling the spell that gives them Ignores Cover & X-ray vision makes them into a hybrid Vindicator & Whirlwind.

God, I want some beamers so bad but I know as soon as I get some I'll be TFG.

What means have we got to give a Blind Fury Juggerlord a strength buff? If he's in a unit with a Banner of Wrath (edit: or is a World Eater), he's one pip away from IDing T4 on the charge.

Well he gets Furious Charge by default by having World Eaters, but regarding getting S8 on the charge you'd need Psyker powers. The Cabal is arguably the easiest way to get in Psykers.

 lindsay40k wrote:
What means have we got to give a Blind Fury Juggerlord a strength buff? If he's in a unit with a Banner of Wrath (edit: or is a World Eater), he's one pip away from IDing T4 on the charge.

If he's part of the Hounds of Abbadon he gets an extra Strength for rolling 8+ on the charge. That's in addition to Furious if you have the banner of Wrath, which will help you get that 8+.

Hmm. He also needs FC, which requires him to join a Khorne unit with banner. The banner also grants a re-roll of the charge, which gives better than even odds on an 8+, but not as good as his Fleet, which allows each dice to be re-rolled.

The charging unit wants to be keeping pace with him and hopefully getting a first turn charge, which suggests Land Raider; they jump out of the Land Raider in a way that allows him to jump out of his bodyguard unit and join them - the Hounds' bikes are a good choice for his starting unit, so as to avoid rousing suspicion. (Spawn can't carry a Banner, so they're out.)

He's part of a Core Speartip formation, so that's a start. Cheapest option is probably to put one of the infantry in a Land Raider, which means either a CAD or Fist of the Gods. The latter's Warpsmith could join the unit inside and Challenge characters with a lot of AP3, but I'd sooner take a HQ Sorceror for another purpose as it can be strongly argued the Warpsmith prevents the Hound unit from exploiting running and charging - with Crusader, that's a big deal we don't want to be negotiating and TFGing over.

Alternatively, a unit of Possessed. Can't run and charge, but have a much better shot at giving our guy S8, which could be a deal-breaker when Paladins are around. Affordable options there are the Tormented, or make the LR's CAD Word Bearers; the latter has the advantages of ObSec and access to a decent Daemonologist HQ to babysit Cultists and Summon, and the Possessed don't need Rending to smash heads with a S8 AxeLord in tow.

A tangential synergy would be to take a Raptor Talon with Dimensional Key for Warlord; adds to T1 shock & awe, then the Daemonologist can drop down Flamers in very precise spots to maximise their firepower or place Seekers & Flesh Hounds behind corners without worrying about exposing them. Then you get Warp Talons landing in between gunner units, Blinding one and engaging the other as the Hounds close in for another charge.

Not a bad set of options, and a BL-WB coalition is a perfectly fluffy army theme

*edit* Argh never mind... I forgot hounds can only use their gimmick starting T2 not T1....Unless... it says any of your turns after THE first (turn), That would refer to player turn. Does that mean it works if you go second?

Huh. I just realized that BL hounds can charge just as far as WE, if not better. At least in theory.
Should you put them in a land raider or spartan (or flyer+landing pad) they get to move 6, then disembark another 6, run d6 (with crusader) then charge 2d6 with re-rolls (icon).
That's 12+3d6, while WE do 6 +4d6. 30 inch potential for hounds and WE both, but hounds will get further on average due to their rolls all being re-rollable and guaranteeing 12 inch rather than 6. If you give WE a landraider they loose their pre game 2d6 and the d6 from running so end up with only 12 +2d6.

Doesn't mean much in practice but I found it interesting. It only works with basic csm (and zerkers, but why?) and you can't take an assault vehicle in that formation so it's a pretty moot point really.
If you want to try first turn charges I think you're still better of just taking a cabal and fishing for soulswitch. You don't even necessarily need to be in the same unit for that. You also don't need a vehicle or cad like this.
Take a TAF deepstrike, shoot, then soulswitch, run and charge. Or just deepstrike some raptors/talons from the hounds. It's just not as ideal. The basic raptors would have the advantage of being the cheapest solution at least.
Well unless you plan on deepstriking the psyker solo, which you aren't.

The key doesn't really work with summoning because of how those spells have an inherent range limit. It helps obviously, but you can't suddenly drop units where you need them unless you also happen to be close already. Which cursed earth does too, while also boosting invulns. Also don't expect warp talons to blind anything that isn't orks or necrons.

The easiest and most reliable would be to buy dreadclaws. They don't require luck like the psykers do, are cheaper in comparison to psykers and allow T2 charges without being shot at in T1. Either that or skimp on both psykers and claws and just hoof it.
Either way T1 charges are going to be luck based. May as well use a raptor talon to T1 charge instead, they don't require anything to work and are at least as likely to make a T1 charge as csm are with all the help they can get. And if they do, you csm are going to draw less fire too.

Ooer. I hadn't spotted that vehicles can only move 6" when occupants are disembarking, and nobody's ever corrected me. Damn.

I'm on the fence between two list ideas: hordes of CSM, Havocs, and Bikes, or HQ spam.

Hordes List

Lord on Jugger with AoBF
Termicide
3x3 Bikes, meltas
3x5 Havocs, autocannons, rhinos
3x10 CSM, meltas
3 spawn for lord escort

HQ Spam

Lord on Jugger with AoBF
5 Termies, kitted for melee
3 Bikes MSU, meltas
1 Havoc unit, autocannon, rhino
2x10 CSM, meltas
Deamon Prince, Glaive
Termie Lord, Burning Brand
4 Spawn

HQ Spam worked fairly well in my local meta when superheavies weren't allowed, but now that the local tourny is allowing 1 superheavy in your list they are getting blown to bits before being able to do anything. The horde list actually did decently against Knight Titans as most hordes lists do, but I find myself leaning back towards the HQ's. The next tourny is going to be full of Titans and Wrathnights, however.

Re Thousand Sons. The Mark of Tzeentch says models bearing it cannot boost their invulnerable save better than 3++. So I guess anyone planning 2++ Possessed/DP/Oblits via Cursed Earth better think again?

That's one of those things that will get argued in ymdc for pages and pages, but I'd always understood it to mean your base invuln can't go under a 3+, but temporary buffs could raise it for a turn.

 Badablack wrote:
That's one of those things that will get argued in ymdc for pages and pages, but I'd always understood it to mean your base invuln can't go under a 3+, but temporary buffs could raise it for a turn.

interesting thing is if the model does not have a inv they get a flat 6+ with no restriction past the 3+ XD

I have a very bad idea.... anyone thought about running blobs of
20 man chaos space marines and 30 cultists? Alpha legion for infiltrate? World Eaters for speed? Death Guard for resilience? hmmm....

30 death guard cultists are a nightmare to shift especialy if you use the poxwalker hive on them. Stick them in a helcult and it can be very nasty and a real tarpit for anything

Typhus cultists get fearless and feel no pain, and reroll 1's in their formation. They also save a bunch of points by not being forced to take marks due to Typhus' zombie rule preventing them from taking anything, which lets you stuff even more cultists into your list.

why helcult?

 Badablack wrote:
Typhus cultists get fearless and feel no pain, and reroll 1's in their formation. They also save a bunch of points by not being forced to take marks due to Typhus' zombie rule preventing them from taking anything, which lets you stuff even more cultists into your list.

does re-rolling 1-s apply to non-votlw models?

 koooaei wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Typhus cultists get fearless and feel no pain, and reroll 1's in their formation. They also save a bunch of points by not being forced to take marks due to Typhus' zombie rule preventing them from taking anything, which lets you stuff even more cultists into your list.

does re-rolling 1-s apply to non-votlw models?

Yep they can. So long as the are part of the decurion.

I've been away from CSM for a time, are hordes of cultists plus flying daemon princes still the best way to go competitively?

Pondering big units has made me think - what about a blob with Cypher? Bonus move and charge bonuses nearly every turn, plus immunity to getting tarpitted.

Dropping him out of an Assault Vehicle with a mob of Possessed could be interesting, with all involved being Fleet and him able to cut through 2+ saves. Just constantly dash around the enemy army with long distance charges, conga lining to ensure you don't kill a unit on the charge but then break away if they manage to survive a second round. High chance of a charge every turn suggests Khorne, though a tarpit or multi-charge approach would prefer Nurgle or Slaanesh.

Could also be used to help a Murder Sword get to it's target.

Why would you buy the Murder Sword in the first place though?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would you buy the Murder Sword in the first place though?

So the person he's trying to use it on refuses the challenge and it becomes useless, of course!

I'm kind of interested in 20 man CSM blobs for WE. Maybe I'll try that out with a Lord with Talisman.

The cost of adding mark of nurgle is worth it on cultists in my mind as it does make them even tougher to kill.
Helcult because i love helbrutes (yes i know they are not great rules wise)

 andysonic1 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would you buy the Murder Sword in the first place though?

So the person he's trying to use it on refuses the challenge and it becomes useless, of course!

I'm kind of interested in 20 man CSM blobs for WE. Maybe I'll try that out with a Lord with Talisman.

I take back what I said, I am not going to do this as it is stupidly expensive pointwise and adds nothing of value to the unit. I would much rather take two units of 10 with meltaguns than one units of 20.

In a moment of stupidity I bought a box of Raptors, so now I have two units of them. I was thinking about taking a unit of 10 of them. With WE rules these guys could be pretty damn scary and a huge distraction. They will also crumble like a ton of bricks under massed fire. BUT the models are cool and I love jet packs. So: 2 units of 5 or 1 unit of 10?

I would take 2x5 with 2 Meltaguns each^^.

 Darksider wrote:
I would take 2x5 with 2 Meltaguns each^^.

That seems like the most cost efficient way to take them. You maximize special weapons and minimize risk of losing them since one can run interference while the other moves up. Now comes the next difficult decision: how to make them World Eaters. I could get more forge world World Eater Khorne conversion bodies and shoulders but I kinda like the Raptor kit. They look more mutated then normal with their weird shoulder pads.

> refusing a challenge to make the Murder Sword useless

It doesn't work only in challenges. It works when you are in base contact with the target. Declining a challenge does not take you out of B2B, it makes a model of your opponent's choice forfeit its attacks. If you are touching the target and a member of another unit, you can make your attacks on them at Sx2 AP1 ID. You can even strike at the target, if they're not part of the other unit.

> WE aesthetics for Raptors

Beastmen heads? They look nicely Khornate. Or Sigmar Bloodbound heads? Eh, this is a tactica thread, not hobby

I have tried the idea of 20 man blobs of marines using world eaters decurion, it was pretty....danktastic....it was tau vs world eaters, i got first turn i rolled 12" for my chaos blob plus the tailsman and then a 12" on the charge and assaulted his one riptide and tabled him 1st turn. then we played a second game where he got first turn and i got tabled 2nd turn. So its not bad but not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im currently building a rehati war sect with three daemon princes, magnus and some renegades. any ideas on what i should do?

20 man is fun on paper, but with the 1 grenade clause and less special weapons it is more efficient for 10 man squads.

 lindsay40k wrote:
> refusing a challenge to make the Murder Sword useless

It doesn't work only in challenges. It works when you are in base contact with the target. Declining a challenge does not take you out of B2B, it makes a model of your opponent's choice forfeit its attacks. If you are touching the target and a member of another unit, you can make your attacks on them at Sx2 AP1 ID. You can even strike at the target, if they're not part of the other unit.

> WE aesthetics for Raptors

Beastmen heads? They look nicely Khornate. Or Sigmar Bloodbound heads? Eh, this is a tactica thread, not hobby

Declining the challenge with the character does next to nothing. Said character is probably in a unit with a different character that can accept the chaellenge.
Meaning he doesn't need to be in b2b in order to attack.
He can't attack the character with the murdersword, but that character is now stuck with a measly power sword, while the target is free to murder his posse.
The murder sword sounds cool at first, but it really doesn't work well in practice.

 -v10mega wrote:
Im currently building a rehati war sect with three daemon princes, magnus and some renegades. any ideas on what i should do?

Daemonology on the DPs FTW, easy access to giving all of them a 2++ with Cursed Earth and with multiple casters you can safely bring a bunch of Daemonic cavalry models without worrying about not rolling Incursion. Only drawback is not making the most of enhanced LOS, but with everyone getting a couple of Tzeentch spells and the big buy in play there'll be plenty to work with. Place a couple of Horror units down so that Magnus can fire a Doombolt through them and you'll get a couple of Blue Horror units for +2 WC, and do it again next turn for +4 WC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re Murdersword: you can also get the MS wielder and a unit champion (or a tough tank character) in B2B with the target. Challenge with the champion, if they accept then the wielder is still in B2B with the target, smash up the unit with your supercharged sword until there's no one left to allocate your S8 AP1 ID onto.

Been theoryhammering recently on what would be the most competative lists to come out of CSM after playing a few games with the new legions. I have to say a deathguard "battle company" style list with the chaos warband seems incredibly powerful as an outlast competative list. The primary goal of the list is to wear down you opponent in a battle of atrition as well as the obsec meaning you will likely hold objectives with ease. The core of this list is for the most part.

Death Guard Vectotium
Chaos Warband -

Min squad of termies with combi melta

Lord with a unit of bikes, upgrades can be taken but avoid in favour of more CSM in rhinos

Havoks with 2 or 3 heavy weapons of choice

6 units of min squads of CSM with meltaguns and rhinos

Aux -
1 Spawn

Rinse and repeat depending on your points cost.

The key part of this list that makes it better than a typical DG CAD is the stealth on both your troops and vehicles, giving your rhinos you parked behind ruins a sweet 3+ as well as re-rolls of 1's on your armys FNP, making your army a damn pain to remove from the board. Meaning the best ting to do is spam obsec stealthed rhinos with min squads for maximum effectivness.

What are everyones thoughts?

 lindsay40k wrote:

Re Murdersword: you can also get the MS wielder and a unit champion (or a tough tank character) in B2B with the target. Challenge with the champion, if they accept then the wielder is still in B2B with the target, smash up the unit with your supercharged sword until there's no one left to allocate your S8 AP1 ID onto.

I sure wish that was a realistic scenario whatsoever. I mean, maybe if someone is putting Celestine out front to catch wounds it might work, but in that case you somehow led the charge with your lord in front, didn't get killed in overwatch, and now have to somehow eat through the tank goddess and her tank lolis with your, what, 6 attacks? They're prolly also invis and have sanctuary because WHY NOT!

Do Combi-Plasma. My ratio is two squads dedicated to Plasma and one for Melta.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Do Combi-Plasma. My ratio is two squads dedicated to Plasma and one for Melta.

Combi plasma is good, although I prefer the melta on termies for the ability to pop vehicles after DS, the reason I put all melta on the troops is the 5 points cheaper means you can really squeeze more out of it when your equiping 6 or more units with it, that way you can afford more marines and rhinos

I've been trying an 1850 black legion raptor talon list and it's worked alright. Hounds detachment, full raptor detachment, heldrake detachment, and some allies with a bastion for the comm relay rerolls. 6 squads of Raptors coming down turn 1 with 3 melta each, 2 heldrakes, and a dreadclaw with the zerkers and lord.

Its definately taken some practice to use correctly, turn 1 placement makes or breaks the fight for me. But there's great synergy between the raptors and heldrakes. Raptors pop transports, drakes torch the contents, Raptors charge the remnants. I used to run it with Night Lords, but the BL berserker tax is worth turn 1 assaults and hatred.

How are you getting the drakes out turn 1? They can't deepstrike.

Oh nah it's not heldrakes coming in turn 1, it's Raptors coming in turn 2. Half the reason I put a comm relay in lists is my awful reserve rolls.

Hmm. Can Heldrakes benefit from a Skyshield? Allied Detachment of a Herald and Brimstone Horrors covers the unit tax and can be pretty handy.

One thing I've contemplated as a gimmick build: Anrakyr and a Sentry Pylon Deathstar, with an Iron Warrior CAD, with Typhon. The result becomes one of the jankiest cases of Allies of Convenience Rules interacting with each other.

Enjoy Anrakyr using Mind in the Machine to get extra Typhon shots off every other turn on average, or Deepstriking Obliterators to trigger Deathmarks getting Ethereal Interceptor ofd.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/23/news-from-the-plague-planet/

New death guard inbound.

And daemon Mortarion. I wonder how he will compare to Magnus. DG troops are a looot better than TS. Should be fun.

Dude 8th is coming...i bought a rehati war sect and now i might be regretting it :( I might have to convert my princes to khorne princes and run them in the world eaters decurion because assaulting is much better now.

I didn't get the impression that 8th is coming soon though. Sounded like it would be closer to next year than this summer.

I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

I would hold off on any snap judgements on any purchases until we have solid info. What we know about assaulting makes it sounds better, but how much better is unknown. Assaulting is already strong for assault armies, the problem has always been getting to assault not landing attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

I imagine they will get the Thousand Son treatment with special formations and bonuses.

If people are worried about Heldrake reserve manipukation, the DFTS Air Superioriity Detachment is vastly superior to the Heldrake Terror Squad.

Rerolls on Reserves, and a +2 when you have Air Superiority means youre coming in on a 2+ with a reroll.

I recently purchased Traitor Legions, and I was thinking about if you could make a deathstar with a squad of 20 KDK hounds and an Ahriman's Exiles formation with everybody on Discs (instead of the usual Cyclopia Cabal). You would have to take a Herald in the formation instead of a Lord to avoid mixing Marks, but RAW it should be doable. My question is if it is worth it as it is a large point investment. Manifesting powers on 3s seems pretty solid, but Exalted Sorcerers are expensive if kitted out and Ahriman is way expensive.

Hm sounds really expansive pointswise.

You also are forced to roll on the tzeentchtable and the Houndstar with the Cyclopia Cabal is the same but better imo.

Other question, if you want to play a 1500 point list with 2 landraiders, which legion is best suited for this and provides the most? Also which units would you transport in them and how should the rest of the list look like?

Thought about a warband from Traitors hate with 2x3 Terminators with Landraiders, 2x5 naked CSM, 1x5 Havocs with 2 Plasma and a Rhino, 3x5 Raptors with 2 Meltas each a Chaoslord with double Claws and a single Spawn for the Aux.

Anyone some Ideas?^^

Iron warriors would probably offer the most buffs to that specific list. Consider taking sorcerers instead of lords though and roll on the new mech psychic powers, a lot of them give good buffs to your raiders.

Thank you =). Hm only problem is i have to take a lord in the warband or should i take a CAD?

Anybody want to hazard a guess how/if the new DG units will improve Black Legion ?
I would presume they won't be building the initiative penalty into these units meaning BL get them at I 4.
I also imagine they'd come with fnp/fearless built in like the current plague marines so nothing lost on that front.
I could also see zombie cultists getting their own entry thus not requiring typhus anymore. Or if they're not zombies I'm guessing they can't be far off, the cultists in the background of what was leaked looks almost like a plaguebearer.

And if we do get an exalted sorcerer equivalent (personally I'm leaning towards not, but I could see it happen) then spineshard(+1I, Ap3 daemonweapon) could be interesting as well as the kull of ker'ngar.
Would probably make for a relatively choppy very tough to kill lord. Although In this scenario I could equally see them be limited to a palanquin like the the exalted sorc is stuck with a disc.
Kinda meh in that case, although we might yet see new vehicles so who knows. Whatever this could end up being, if anything at all, could at least take a vehicle. So Claws are still a go.

At the very least it would make BL a bit more intersting.
This will give BL access to all 4 cult units, scarab termies, tzaangors (meh), exalted sorcs, zombie(?) cultists, plague termies and possibly an exalted sorc equivalent in addition to all the stuff everybody else gets.
And mystery vehicles that everybody else also gets because they wont have VotLW lol. Really curious about those tanks.

Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

SirSweetroll wrote:
Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

None, as all the benefits apply to infantry type models only or require a decurion. So you're going to go with whatever legion works best as an allied detachment.
Black Legion makes a decent allied detachments as you can take a termicide unit plus HQ of your choice. The termies need the least amount of support to work.
Alpha legion would also work pretty well for to infiltrate chosen or what have you. Maybe even cypher, since you probably already have a warlord.
Word bearers might work if you have a few bodies to sacrifice.

SirSweetroll wrote:
Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

This would be an Allied Detachment, right? So I guess it largely comes down to the ObSec and HQ options.

BL and AL both bring Chosen. BL leader can bring a very expensive one shot Haywire Ignore Cover Large Blast. AL get to Infiltrate but leave their HQ behind. Both can bring the Dreadclaw without filling a force org slot.

IW bring TH FNP Obliterators. Brilliant! Mediocre synergy with a Burning Brand, probably better to take a cheap Sorcerer. Or a character with Deep Strike can join them and cause backfield trouble.

NL bring Raptors. They can have a Jump Lord with a 2+ save to tank small arms fire. Really good fluff & aesthetic synergy with an Air Force.

WB can keep things cheap with a Sorcerer and Cultist unit that will summon 2-3 Daemon units before his head explodes. With a Palanquin he's pricier but unlikely to go pop. Alternatively, you could drop Possessed out of that Dreadclaw with a Juggerlord. I know they're expensive, but Fleet gives them extra reach, which means their arrival can be a bit more cautious.

WE can take Talisman. Again, Juggerlord can do interesting things. Dreadclaw won't take a force org slot because you'd better take CSM over zerks.

TS give you a Rubric squad and a Sorcerer. Brilliant! Astral Grimoire will let you turn a deathstar of Plague Ogryns into Jump Infantry. Double brilliant!

DG give you Plague Marines. Brilliant! Decent synergy with Burning Brand on their HQ.

EC give you Noise Marines. Not bad. They've got some decent short-medium ranged Artefacts and psychic powers.

Juggerlords can't embark on transports, they're no longer infantry but cavalry.

 Roknar wrote:
I didn't get the impression that 8th is coming soon though. Sounded like it would be closer to next year than this summer.

I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

It's possible they'd get new formations and a new decurion, but there's also the fact that if you compare the Wrath of Magnus book to traitor legions there weren't any additional detachments, relics, or formations from one to the other.

They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.
So at the very least I expect new formations, but after that I'm really not sure what to expect? There is going to be rampant copy pasting since that is the GW way of doing things, but I wonder how far they'll go. It sucks for Black Legion to have a formation that is only stand alone and I have half a fear that they will one up that fail by adding new formations and units and copying the rest without incorporating the new formations.

It'd be pretty easy to incorporate new units by having something like "Deathbringers: up to four models may be armed with Rotcannons or Blightlobbers. This unit may replace Havocs in Death Guard Formations." Not far off from the rules insert in Blue Horrors boxes. (Though that falls somewhat short by not explicitly overwriting the BH rule in print copies of C:CD.)

Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

No, i wouldn't recommend it. I'd say it's all but mandatory lol. In the case of Black Legion, forget their supplement.
There are no rules in there that aren't also in the Legions book. You could get it for the fluff if you want to, but there is no reason to get it for the rules.

Competitively, they're still not on loyalist levels but with Legions, they *all* get reasonably close. Some Legions more than others though.
Mix them with daemons and renegade knights and you have some lists that are up there. Not sure that can count as CSM though.

Yes, this is essentially the new Chaos Codex, I would not suggest playing chaos marines without it. You just lose so much playing vanilla chaos.

 Badablack wrote:
Yes, this is essentially the new Chaos Codex, I would not suggest playing chaos marines without it. You just lose so much playing vanilla chaos.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of how bad the vanilla CSM codex is. It was bad even during 6th edition.

How does Khorne Daemonkin fit into this? I've been out of the hobby for a while, so I'm not sure if the rules in one book supersede the other like for the Black Legion supplement. It must be better if you aren't playing Khorne, but does Khorne Daemonkin hold any sort of advantages over the Traitor Legions books?

Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Is it possible to build a all Death Guard army and compete on a competitive level? Or do you have to bring renegades and daemons to stand a chance?

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

 Roknar wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

No, i wouldn't recommend it. I'd say it's all but mandatory lol. In the case of Black Legion, forget their supplement.
There are no rules in there that aren't also in the Legions book. You could get it for the fluff if you want to, but there is no reason to get it for the rules.

Competitively, they're still not on loyalist levels but with Legions, they *all* get reasonably close. Some Legions more than others though.
Mix them with daemons and renegade knights and you have some lists that are up there. Not sure that can count as CSM though.

Take the Black Legion detachment, a cheap Daemonic Herald and 2 minimum squads of Daemons.

Your 'Main' detachment will be the Daemons so that you get the Daemonic Storms. Your secondary detachment will be a horde of unmarked CSM who are immune to the Daemonic Storms, because they have no marks.

Hilarious. Also a good reason to take Lorgar and his brood.

 koooaei wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

Yea but they didn't get new units did they? At the very least we are getting mortarion though it's pretty safe to assume we are also getting a new unit of cultists and terminators.
Those wouldn't have any existing formations to go in except for the plague marines. We would probably get new formations for those units, but I'm wondering how far they'll take that.
Giving us new new units without anything else would be at least as lame as the gahzkull supplement update, perhaps more so even.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Termicide is basically better elsewhere but the Brazen ones gain Rampage which is pretty nice when you're keeping the numbers low.

Only issue is the tax of the formation.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Better is a relative term here. Assuming you make your reserve rolls and don't mishap/scatter too badly, coming in on T1 can be very nice. That being THE first turn, not your T1 though.
That way your opponent doesn't get a chance to put up invisibility and stuff. Hatred does nothing because you already have hatred.
Take away "true" T1 and it's not really a whole lot better than any other TAF. Having crusader is cute but is only a little bit better than fear since it doesn't apply in CC due to termies not being able to sweep.

So considering there isn't really a better option than the brand for shooting, which everybody gets, it might be better, but really not by much.
Plus it competes with a raptor talon which is really good with Black Legion.

Anyone tried a WE CAD rather than a Maelstrom? I've got the urge to stick 20 CSM and a khorne lord in a Spartan. Would maybe run a dreadclaw with chosen, a twin claw decimator and a mayhem pack as well for laughs.

Not sure what to fill up the rest with though. Cheap cultists for backfield objectives?

 Roknar wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

Yea but they didn't get new units did they? At the very least we are getting mortarion though it's pretty safe to assume we are also getting a new unit of cultists and terminators.
Those wouldn't have any existing formations to go in except for the plague marines. We would probably get new formations for those units, but I'm wondering how far they'll take that.
Giving us new new units without anything else would be at least as lame as the gahzkull supplement update, perhaps more so even.

They may come up with a new formation which is more designed to sell the new stuff ( but most likely the new units will have rules saying they can be substituted with other stuff in formations like being able to put the new terminators into a Warband or annilation formation etc . Whilst we are getting new units GW already released death guard legion rules so I doubt they will completely change if anything everything new will slot into the Vectorium pretty easy without troubles. Mortarion will become a command choice in the Vectorium and maybe get a Nurgle version of the Raheti war sect formation if we are lucky

With the legion book there's already rules for death guard Terminators, and zombie cultists have always been a thing. Other than mortarion and some new nurgle unit, there's really not much to put in a new nurgle book other than alternate weapon loadouts.

I doubt they would allow us to switch terminators. They had a chance to do that with scarab occult and they botched that. I mean I would loooove if they allowed us to switch termies like that but I'm not seeing it. Black Legion would be very happy, imagine "deathshroud" bringers of despair hue hue hue.

Loopstah wrote:
Anyone tried a WE CAD rather than a Maelstrom? I've got the urge to stick 20 CSM and a khorne lord in a Spartan. Would maybe run a dreadclaw with chosen, a twin claw decimator and a mayhem pack as well for laughs.

Not sure what to fill up the rest with though. Cheap cultists for backfield objectives?

I think you'd have a few giggles but you're relying heavily on vehicles that may disappoint you in the end. You also won't have much on the field to take fire off your Spartan.

Yea that's a problem in general. You can make possessed into a great unit through the favoured or the tormented, but it costs you so many points in support that while the unit works, the rest of the army is in shambles. And if you loose any of those things like a spartan it all falls apart.

I tried 20 zerkers+kharn in a spartan with auloth before legions though it wasn't a 1850 game. We played auloth as per RAW so I had furious charge and fnp. They performed rather admirably, but I still lost the game horribly cuz I had little else and couldn't cap objectives worth a damn due to not having enough units. It was a fun game but it was a horrible army lol. Worth trying though, might work better in a large game. It looks great on the table top and hordes of marines are surprisingly fun lol.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Is it possible to build a all Death Guard army and compete on a competitive level? Or do you have to bring renegades and daemons to stand a chance?

My friend likes them. He beat up on a Tyranid Monster mash list with tons of Flyrants and the like. He essentially killed two Mawlocs (well they killed themselves actually) and one Flyer the whole game, but he won.

So yeah. its not a "pretty" way to win but deathGuard can get it done.

Deathguard are probably in the top 3 most powerful legion buffs. FNP for everybody, relentless, fearless, etc. They make otherwise weak units like Terminators, possessed, and mutilators much tougher and actually viable competitively.
Their decurion buffs work for everyone too, so you can reroll fnps on zombies. And while expensive a maxed out plague colony is ridiculously tough to budge with cc.

Has anybody tried a mostly Black Legion warband army? With the speartip you have re-rolls galore. Hatred, which gets even better vs IoM, effectively preferred enemy, and crusader armywide. Even in the psychic phase you kinda sorta have re-rolls if you go full pyromancy with yuranthos considering you only have a 30 % chance of NOT getting the first power. And you have access to exalted sorcerers. Re-rolls on charge distances too if you take the icon of wrath on anything, saves even if you luck out on sinistrum.

More access to plasma too since you can skip normal csm, which then also works towards CC with their extra attacks. Could be fun.

 Roknar wrote:
Has anybody tried a mostly Black Legion warband army? With the speartip you have re-rolls galore. Hatred, which gets even better vs IoM, effectively preferred enemy, and crusader armywide. Even in the psychic phase you kinda sorta have re-rolls if you go full pyromancy with yuranthos considering you only have a 30 % chance of NOT getting the first power. And you have access to exalted sorcerers. Re-rolls on charge distances too if you take the icon of wrath on anything, saves even if you luck out on sinistrum.

More access to plasma too since you can skip normal csm, which then also works towards CC with their extra attacks. Could be fun.

My army SCREAMS to be able to use the Warband but the Warband taxes me too much to keep the list together. Its a bummer. I love what Black legion lets my Night Lords do. Super cool. Just...not enough points for me to pull it all off.

Use the hounds formation instead of the warband. You're basically just paying for another lord, 5 zerkers and 5 marines. Free khorne marks too.

I imagine that's what most people playing BL are doing. Hence the question. To make the warband work you would really need as many units in a warband as you can squeeze in. Haven't dared yet myself, but I have to say I'm tempted to try it.

I think we need to talk about things that can be done with Terminators (and Annihilation Forces), Cults of Destruction, and Haemotrope Reactors.

For the uninitiated, they upgrade nearby Plasma Guns (and Pistols) to Blast, and Plasma Cannons to Large Blast. They also increase Gets Hot to happen on a 1-2, but if you're twin-linked then you can still re-roll. You can get 2-4 of them in a single Fortification slot and they are priced just above a Rhino.

We have access to TL Plasma Guns that can double-tap with an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon. This looks like some serious firepower waiting to happen.

Well Obliterators getting Large Blast Plasma Cannons ain't too shabby. Every other turn you're using expensive Lascannons though.

Main question how far up would you be willing to deploy?

If you're taking CADbliterators then they're switching between Plasma Cannon and Plasma Guns each turn. If you're going CoD, then they can do both in the same turn, then next turn use AC & Las/MM. I think we'll usually want to deploy the Haemotrope right up front and then walk in front of it, so we can benefit from TL Plasguns.

CoD might not even be necessary. This is going to see some serious overkill.

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you're taking CADbliterators then they're switching between Plasma Cannon and Plasma Guns each turn. If you're going CoD, then they can do both in the same turn, then next turn use AC & Las/MM. I think we'll usually want to deploy the Haemotrope right up front and then walk in front of it, so we can benefit from TL Plasguns.

CoD might not even be necessary. This is going to see some serious overkill.

At the same time, isn't it sorta necessary?

Obliterators are super expensive. Let's face it. Without being able to double fire they might not make their points back. The Warpsmiths become less of a tax because you're going to attach them to the units anyway, and with how close you'll want the Obliterators, Warpsmiths can surprisingly help against being tarpitted (because 5 extra attacks from a single model is still pretty awesome).

Already got a Plasma Pistol on my WS, with BS5 and a 2+ I can live with double Gets Hot. I suppose with the latter, it will help to get extra shots out - on average, a Plasma Cannon volley is only going to have two big blasts and one overheat, meaning enough cover saves to justify giving them a few more blasts. WS also adds a bit of OW, which is nice.

There's an argument for a Havoc or Chosen Plasma squad in a Rhino that can deploy between the two Haemotropes and then bolster whichever one takes the brunt of the enemy's approach.

Perhaps for a Plasma Helbrute to stand by Oblits as well. Warpsmith can repair its self-inflicted HP from Overheats.

I tried running the new BL annihilation force. They are a waste of points unless paired with something. They don't come in reliably, they die quickly to cc units and can't reply back strong enough.

Give them anything except for mark of slaanesh, comb plasmas + combo melts and pair them with sorcerers to deny enemy shenanigans. Or even better mess them in with a cabal. They have their uses with melt drops and plasma drops. They are good for ganging deathstars.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Already got a Plasma Pistol on my WS, with BS5 and a 2+ I can live with double Gets Hot. I suppose with the latter, it will help to get extra shots out - on average, a Plasma Cannon volley is only going to have two big blasts and one overheat, meaning enough cover saves to justify giving them a few more blasts. WS also adds a bit of OW, which is nice.

There's an argument for a Havoc or Chosen Plasma squad in a Rhino that can deploy between the two Haemotropes and then bolster whichever one takes the brunt of the enemy's approach.

Perhaps for a Plasma Helbrute to stand by Oblits as well. Warpsmith can repair its self-inflicted HP from Overheats.

The Warpsmith won't add anything to Overwatch unless it is a separate unit. Can't do anything with SaP.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I think we need to talk about things that can be done with Terminators (and Annihilation Forces), Cults of Destruction, and Haemotrope Reactors.

For the uninitiated, they upgrade nearby Plasma Guns (and Pistols) to Blast, and Plasma Cannons to Large Blast. They also increase Gets Hot to happen on a 1-2, but if you're twin-linked then you can still re-roll. You can get 2-4 of them in a single Fortification slot and they are priced just above a Rhino.

We have access to TL Plasma Guns that can double-tap with an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon. This looks like some serious firepower waiting to happen.

Well the TAF is pretty much out. You'd have to deepstrike withing two inches of a worldwrithed reactor, so yea, not happening.
Range in general would be a problem without worldwrithe, so you pretty much need to take obliterators for the cannons. So basically, for decurions, you need a cult of destruction either way since there isn't any other way to take him in a decurion.
This really screams Iron Warriors. They're better no matter where you take them and their decurion even has a slot for the reactors. Nevermind the chance to get their obliterator warlord trait.

Could be worth taking the cult even in a CAD for the trait. You'd be throwing out small and large blasts every turn. Might even be an idea to get containter cache.
Re-rolls for all those blasts as well as their get's hot rolls. They'd also all get the option of torrent (heavy) flamers. Plus the chance to make the plasma guns S8 and the torrent flamers S6 or 5 with re-roll to wound.

Problem I see is that this a 500ish points 8 wound unit with a MASSIVE target on their back.

I was wondering about possibly running a Terminator squad in a World Eaters Chaos Warband as the mandatory elites choice. Kit them out for CC and don't deep strike them, but rather run them up the board using the 2D6" move to get them closer to the enemy. If they flub that roll, they should then grab some cover and perhaps get the charge next turn. Maybe they could even have a terminator captain with the talisman to make them even faster. I know termies aren't great right now, but at the least a group of them would make a decent distraction carnifex, at least until someone points a couple of gravcannons their way. Otherwise I'm not sure what to run in that slot. Possessed are not great either and Chosen would be better as a shooty unit. Could this be an okay use for termies?

I have been thinking about world eaters as well. Their rules seem to make them really fluffy and who doesn't like an in your face army that wrecks in close combat. But one of the biggest issue I have with it is how dependent they are on getting that turn one charge off.

If they fail to charge the opponent in turn one, whether by clever opponent positioning, or a failed charge. They will be very close to opponent at the end of turn one, open to massed ranged fire and being charged first. (because why wait to be charged by world eaters if you know you negate their furious charge and reduce their attacks by one when you charge them first.)

Also, given that rolling off for first turn is essentially a 50:50 thing. That means that 50% of the time, you won't get off that first turn charge because you will go second. A world eaters army constructed to take advantage of a turn one charge is not built to withstand shooting.

Have been racking my head thinking about this because I can't really depend on getting to go first every single time. I have only two solutions.

One is to construct the army to include units that will attract shooting and yet, can take a decent amount of shooting (I say decent because I don’t think you can have a world eaters army that can withstand the kind of massed shooting that some really shooty armies can bring to the table). This means either having spawn or bikes. Because spawn have the toughness and the wounds to take the shooting while bikes can jink to at least give a 4+ save against AP 3 or lower shooting. And both are fast enough to still fit into a world eaters army. Unfortunately, the one thing I am not sure will work is to have 20 CSM in one big squad with a chaos lord. CSM are still just power armor and lots of ranged shooting would love to shoot at a mass blob of CSM. And while they hit hard, they do cost 15 points per model at least. So, no matter what, It would generally be worth pouring shooting into such a unit.

So, one way is to tone down on the number of CSM in the army in favour of bikes and spawn and rely on the lords to do the killing. It can still get overwhelmed by shooting but at least it would probably stand up better to big infantry blobs of WE CSM.

The other way is to go cultists. Invite them to shoot at a mass blob of cultists which only cost 6 points a model. This means adding a very specific formation. But the good thing about that formation is that the cultists come back on a 4+ The killy components of a WE list are mainly its lords anyway. The chaos lords can hop from one depleted cultist unit to another full strength one until they get a chance to charge into combat and do their thing.

I actually think having flying khorne daemon princes is very important despite their high point cost. Firstly, because if you get to go first, then start them on the board and try for the first turn charge with them. If you go second, then stat them in reserve and fly in. They will serve well in both cases, be it as a beatstick or as flying fire magnets.

Perhaps the trick to going second is to accept that you will be facing shooting and start in cover and use your WE rules to move from cover to cover instead of getting that immediate charge off (because it is not happening if you go second). Cultists in cover still get a cover save no matter what is being fired at them (unless it ignores cover). And at least if you suffer casualties on cultists who can come back in entire units on a 4+, its not as painful as losing 15 points CSM models or even more expensive models to shooting.
I think if you are going for spawn and bikes mostly, you might as well go KDK because hounds are probably even more efficient point wise and KDK gets its own rules to bring back units from blood tithe.

Unfortunately, I am just not convinced if a heavy CSM force can stand up to the kind of shooting that many ranged armies can bring to bear these days. So, after racking my brains over this issue. The best I can think of is to have the cultist formation added in and go heavy of characters and daemon princes. Go light on the chaos warband (bare minimum to satisfy the requirements and to fight for objectives).

So, if you go first as WE, line up your princes and your characters to try and get off that first turn charge and roll up the opponents army. If you go second, its about trying to go for objectives while forcing your opponent to waste shots shooting at either hard to hit flying princes or cheap cultists. If you can eventually get into CC, great, but you have to survive the shooting first.

The only other possible tactic I thought of is to put a dimensional key on a fast khorne lord, put it into a max unit of bikes with another reserve unit of bikes directly behind. And then add on a raptor talon formation. So, if you go first, get that first turn charge off, and then second turn onwards, when your raptor talon deep strikes in, you can position it exactly how you want and then charge it straight into combat.
If you go second. The big bike squad tanks the shooting (and you hope your lord doesn’t die). You then hop it into the reserve squad directly behind and charge it into combat straight after as well. Rinse and repeat.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

Multiple losable units is definitely a necessity with an army that employs gambits like a first turn charge. You don't want to rely on that one unit performing well. I think there might be an argument for a few small-ish Possessed units; like Spawn, they get to re-roll each of their charge dice, significantly increasing the likely result of trying again with a 5-2 or 6-1 split, and if you get second turn they're a very tempting target you can present to draw fire away from other units. Unlike Spawn, they aren't going to suddenly make eight attacks each and break a unit when you only wanted them to hold it in place as a LOS-blocker.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Multiple losable units is definitely a necessity with an army that employs gambits like a first turn charge. You don't want to rely on that one unit performing well. I think there might be an argument for a few small-ish Possessed units; like Spawn, they get to re-roll each of their charge dice, significantly increasing the likely result of trying again with a 5-2 or 6-1 split, and if you get second turn they're a very tempting target you can present to draw fire away from other units. Unlike Spawn, they aren't going to suddenly make eight attacks each and break a unit when you only wanted them to hold it in place as a LOS-blocker.

I was already thinking of Possessed. They aren't that good alone, but three units and a Prince in the Favored of Chaos formation could be spicy. Take the Berserker Glaive on the Prince and go nuts!

So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

 Latro_ wrote:
So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

Magnus is a model that has to have support to pull his weight. Kill that and he won't be worth his points. I just played in a tournament with him and for two of the games he didn't get to do a single thing. One of the games I was seized upon and he got killed with a single turn of shooting so he can definitely be scratched. The other game, being more wary of an alpha strike, I kept him in reserves since I had a comms relay and he never made it onto the table (we didn't get to play out the full game because of time constraints on the round).

Those were extreme examples where he did absolutely nothing, but even if he does start on the table and take off, he won't be worth his cost if he doesn't get warp charges from a lot of other psykers. Focus on killing those instead of skyfiring into him once he has blessings and such going.

The Psykic Phase is pretty nuts right now. I honestly hope they hit it with a nerf bat in 8th and give Khorne some of the AoS "unmaking" gak so you can strip boons and stuff. I really feel like Ada Will is useless when you get 3-4 die to use on it and the other army gets 20. OR give a warp die for every unit with Ada Will. Suddenly Khorne armies can negate powers like they should be able to.

 Latro_ wrote:
So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

Sorry to here that man...

What were you running? I mean fatey and Magnus in the same list is a little gross... The best way to go about it is to kill everyone besides Magnus. He is going to kill you, the good players know that and kill what Magnus cant protect.

well i did mess up in so much i took a fellblade that magnus 2hp'ed turn one (after seizing) and then took 10hps off turn 2! - kaboom

but there was the feeling i was boned even with that tank!

Baneblades and their variants in general are pretty weak right now.

Does anyone know any good support units to run with an Alpha Legion infiltrating infantry build?

My army is based around MSU melta/Plasma Chosen with Cultist and CSM support, but I need some supporting units. My HQ is a winged DP with Drakescale Plate and a Sorceror biker with Mindveil. I also have a forgefiend (autocannons). Since I can't use cult troops my infantry options are quite limited.

Should I invest in bikers to go with the Mindveil Sorceror? Should I use Oblits or would they not be too useful as they can't infiltrate? Would a Pred or Vindicator work as they are faster than Oblits? What about a Hellturkey or do they suck?

So many questions...

I have just over 500 pts left, any help is much appreciated.

In my Alpha Legion list I've been using a Fire Raptor or two. The non rapid attacking of the Chosen and Cultists is very much complimented by the Fire Raptor killing gak.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Does anyone know any good support units to run with an Alpha Legion infiltrating infantry build?

My army is based around MSU melta/Plasma Chosen with Cultist and CSM support, but I need some supporting units. My HQ is a winged DP with Drakescale Plate and a Sorceror biker with Mindveil. I also have a forgefiend (autocannons). Since I can't use cult troops my infantry options are quite limited.

Should I invest in bikers to go with the Mindveil Sorceror? Should I use Oblits or would they not be too useful as they can't infiltrate? Would a Pred or Vindicator work as they are faster than Oblits? What about a Hellturkey or do they suck?

So many questions...

I have just over 500 pts left, any help is much appreciated.

Get a helfist murder pack with 5 plasma cannons and PF. 550 Pts.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Does anyone know any good support units to run with an Alpha Legion infiltrating infantry build?

My army is based around MSU melta/Plasma Chosen with Cultist and CSM support, but I need some supporting units. My HQ is a winged DP with Drakescale Plate and a Sorceror biker with Mindveil. I also have a forgefiend (autocannons). Since I can't use cult troops my infantry options are quite limited.

Should I invest in bikers to go with the Mindveil Sorceror? Should I use Oblits or would they not be too useful as they can't infiltrate? Would a Pred or Vindicator work as they are faster than Oblits? What about a Hellturkey or do they suck?

So many questions...

I have just over 500 pts left, any help is much appreciated.

Get a helfist murder pack with 5 plasma cannons and PF. 550 Pts.

Tempting indeed. I probably won't run 5 as I intend on taking bikes for a Mindveil Melee DeathStar with the Sorceror.

A better suggestion might be the deepstriking mayhem pack with multi meltas and PF or heavy flamer or termicide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A better suggestion might be the deepstriking mayhem pack with multi meltas and PF or heavy flamer or termicide.

 killerpenguin wrote:
A better suggestion might be the deepstriking mayhem pack with multi meltas and PF or heavy flamer or termicide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A better suggestion might be the deepstriking mayhem pack with multi meltas and PF or heavy flamer or termicide.

Yeah that sound better than having the warpsmith tax.

FYI the Helfist Murderpack is the Squadron of five Helbrutes with a Character with an invuln and no Warpsmith tax

I tried the idea of having Iron Warriors CAD with a lot of oblits mixed in with AL, but i never bothered fielding the list.

Has anybody considered taking the Tidewall, armoured containers and a Night Lords detachment?

The Night Lords detachment ensures that it's night fighting(Which you ignore) but gives you stealth and a +1 on top of that to cover saves.

The Tidewall gives you a total of 2+ cover saves, moves you 6 inches a turn and every cover save you make either causes a wound or a hull point back on a 6. That means if you are forced to take 36 cover saves, you'll lose 6 and cause 5 back.

Put the Munitions Dump box in the center so you reroll 1s with your Plasma, or take the barrels and give all your flamers Torrent. Or put in both and some Obliterators and watch the hilarity as you have 2+ cover save Obliterators with torrenting heavy flamers and rerolls of 1s for shooting.

Total cost: 100 points for both plus your army.

^^ I have thought of that, but in a tournament setting, cover saves are usually ignored. On top of that, Chaos doesnt really have unholy amounts of fire power, so what is the best that you are putting behind the wall? The best I can think of is a bunch of sicarans or oblits. But they can only do so much to a riptide or wraithknight.

 lindsay40k wrote:
FYI the Helfist Murderpack is the Squadron of five Helbrutes with a Character with an invuln and no Warpsmith tax

mistook it for the Helforged Warpack sorry.

If i bring the Helbrute


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 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute

Hehe, didn't finish the question! I was gonna ask if I got infiltrate on my cultists if I brought the helbrute and cultist formation in a Alfa legion CAD? Not sure how that works.

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute

Hehe, didn't finish the question! I was gonna ask if I got infiltrate on my cultists if I brought the helbrute and cultist formation in a Alfa legion CAD? Not sure how that works.

The Helcult? I'm pretty sure you would. There are no rules on how far you have to be from the Helbrute.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute

Hehe, didn't finish the question! I was gonna ask if I got infiltrate on my cultists if I brought the helbrute and cultist formation in a Alfa legion CAD? Not sure how that works.

The Helcult? I'm pretty sure you would. There are no rules on how far you have to be from the Helbrute.

Yes, helcult. Not too sure about that, They don't get objective secured so I guess they won't get infiltrate either.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 killerpenguin wrote:
If i bring the Helbrute

Hehe, didn't finish the question! I was gonna ask if I got infiltrate on my cultists if I brought the helbrute and cultist formation in a Alfa legion CAD? Not sure how that works.

The Helcult? I'm pretty sure you would. There are no rules on how far you have to be from the Helbrute.

Yes, helcult. Not too sure about that, They don't get objective secured so I guess they won't get infiltrate either.

The rules say that the units gain infiltrate, it makes no mention of any formations. I would assume it extends to any units that are supposed to be Alpha Legion. Perhaps make a post in you make da call?

If you declare any detachment or formation to be part of a legion it gains the legion bonuses (and has to apply by legion restrictions)

so yes, an alpha legion helcult has infiltrating cultists, but you wouldn't be able to take marks.

Hmm. 35-strong, Fearless, Infiltrating blob. Shame you can't guarantee an Infiltrating Daemonologist!

Development of that idea: Alpha Legion & Death Guard alliance. AL infiltrates big Cultist units, DG bikers zoom up to their vicinity escorting a character with Poxwalker Hive. Boom, FNP Fearless replenishing zombie horde in their face. Against armies without common S6 anti-infantry weapons, that's going to be quite a formidable tarpit. The uninflected can G2G and then next turn immediately pop up out of cover to eat brains. Even if they get flamered and break, they'll turn around and be a threat again. (Note that they will still need to Regroup and thus won't immediately charge the unit that torched them.)

Sure you can. Huron and ahriman give d3 units infiltrate, so that's at least 1 infiltrating unit, the daemonologist. Though a flying prince works just as well, assuming it can stay alive long enough.

Aha. Then, this is doable:
- Huron or Ahriman as general in their own CAD or formation
- bunch of Daemonologists, perhaps Word Bearers but by no means essential
- AL Helcult
- the Daemonologist that gets Possession Infiltrates and hulks out on turn 1

Alpha legion helcult sounds like a good way to bring fearless cultists on the board.
I have recently acquired 5 helbrutes, I have magnetised them, so I have some options. The bare bones multi melta mayhem pack or the 5x plasma cannon murder pack. I've looked through traitor legions, the helforged warpack is an option. If I pay the warpsmith tax, I get a 4++ on a helbrute Alpha.

Other than those, are there any formations I can bring my helbrutes in?

I am looking for some good 1500 points (as this is the max we play in my area) Black Legion builds for competitive games under friends and maybe some casual tournaments .

So this is the last list i played against tyranid skyblight swarm with some morgons.

I won the game (although it was really close), but i want to improve the list a bit, cause i had the feeling it lacks something.
Also first turn deepstrike is also kind of risky, i found out in the game. As half of my guys didn't come in on first turn, the rest came in turn 2 and 3.

So how would you improve my list? What does it lack? Can it compete against some harder lists out there?

Black Legion Speartip

The Hounds of Abaddon

Chaos Lord (1) - 150pts
1 Chaos Lord: Frag and krak grenades,Power fist,Lightning claw,Chaos bike,FREE Mark of Khorne,Sigil of corruption,Veterans of the Long War

Chaos Bikers (3) - 100pts Veterans of the Long War, ,FREE Mark of Khorne
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Twin-linked boltgun
2 Chaos Biker: Plasma gun,Twin-linked boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Space Marines (5) - 95pts Veterans of the Long War, ,FREE Mark of Khorne
1 Aspiring Champion: Champion of Chaos,Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Melta bombs
1 Chaos Space Marine: Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
3 Chaos Space Marine: Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Khorne Berzerkers (5) - 110pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Berzerker Champion: Champion of Chaos,Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Melta bombs
4 Berzerker: Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol

The Chosen of Abaddon

Chaos Terminators (3) - 124pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-melta,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta,Power weapon

Sorcerer (1) - 150pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Jump pack,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Sigil of corruption,Veterans of the Long War

Chaos Terminators (3) - 107pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power fist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Power weapon

Sorcerer (1) - 155pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Jump pack,Psyker (Mastery Level 2),Sigil of corruption,Last Memomry of the Yuranthos,Veterans of the Long War

Raptor Talon

Chaos Lord (1) - 80pts
1 Chaos Lord: Frag and krak grenades,Power weapon,Bolt pistol,FREE Jump pack,Veterans of the Long War

Raptors (5) - 120pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Raptor Champion: Champion of Chaos,Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Melta bombs
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Meltagun
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Bolt pistol

Raptors (5) - 120pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Raptor Champion: Champion of Chaos,Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Melta bombs
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Meltagun
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Bolt pistol

Raptors (5) - 120pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Raptor Champion: Champion of Chaos,Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Melta bombs
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Meltagun
2 Raptor: CloseCombatWeapon,Bolt pistol

Spawn

Chaos Spawn (1) - 30pts
1 Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn (1) - 30pts
1 Chaos Spawn


Looking forward to some advise from you =).

I'd say the mayhem pack is your best bet. This formation of 3 Helbrutes gives them all IWND, Deep-Striking, and a shared roll on the Crazed table, even if they've never been hit.

If you're running more than one or two deepstriking units then always, ALWAYS take a comm relay. Almost any fortification can take it, but Bastions are especially good since they're so cheap for what you get. 4 heavy bolters on an AV14 hull gets you a solid starting deployment unit that greatly reduces turn 1 null deployment losses. Stick your 5 regular marines in it, throw the Berzerkers in a dreadclaw, and drop almost everything down turn 1.

Thanks for the advice, but unfortunately i don't have a bastion or a dreadclaw =(.

What do you think about the bringers of despair in a Black Legion spear tip detachment?

The Bringers of Despair

Abaddon the Despoiler (1) - 265pts
1 Abaddon the Despoiler

Chaos Terminators (4) - 155pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-melta,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta,Chainfist

420 Points total


Made this config, but it is really expansive with 420 points in a 1500 point game.

My only issue would be getting that anywhere without a Dreadclaw, which is another 265 points to spend.

Yeah for sure, but don't have one =(. So i only can deepstrike them or put them in an raider for 235 points.

Some ideas for my army i posted above? Are there things i could make better?

If you're going Land Raider, might as well pay more for the Spartan instead.

 Darksider wrote:
Yeah for sure, but don't have one =(. So i only can deepstrike them or put them in an raider for 235 points.

Some ideas for my army i posted above? Are there things i could make better?

I would probably DS Abba with 3 termies with power axe and combi melta on all of them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would suck if they come in turn 4 though.

Funny you guys should be talking about the Bringers of Despair, as I was just considering that formation myself. I'd need to get Abaddon and some Chaos Termies first, but it seems like a decent formation. I'm not sure why you really never see Abaddon in competitive play; he's a monster in CC. I guess the problem is getting him into combat. Perhaps the reason no one takes him is the same reason no one takes Marneus Calgar in competitive play either. I still might like to try the formation; choosing a loadout for the termies is the hard part. I would think it might be worth it to take a heavy weapon like an autocannon to make the most of their improved ballistic skill, but 25 points...

Expensive, no sweeping, no grenades, no mobility, no ranged ability and a warlord trait that is way to situational. That's not the most attractive package.
The bringers on the other hand are a pretty nasty unit, but not without issues and as you noticed, expensive since they have to include abaddon. I prefer them with plasma combis though.
Makes abbies trait pretty brutal if you get to use it, plus it allows them to engage at range if need be.

 Roknar wrote:
Expensive, no sweeping, no grenades, no mobility, no ranged ability and a warlord trait that is way to situational. That's not the most attractive package.
The bringers on the other hand are a pretty nasty unit, but not without issues and as you noticed, expensive since they have to include abaddon. I prefer them with plasma combis though.
Makes abbies trait pretty brutal if you get to use it, plus it allows them to engage at range if need be.

You don't want to sweep with that unit though as it'll help protect them from incoming fire being in melee, and honestly despite how gakky Abigail is they've all got Hatred and attacks out the wazoo. Not being able to sweep isn't really the issue here if you think about it for like a few seconds.

Yea I was referring to abaddon on his own. Bringers joined by abaddon are more than likely to sweep a unit by straight up slaughtering any opposition. Though I suppose there's no reason to get abaddon on his own when you can get a unit of bad ass termies along with him.
Don't forget they fit in a regular dreadclaw though, you don't HAVE to go all out on the kharybdis. You run less of a risk of wiping units with a squad of 5.

 Roknar wrote:
Yea I was referring to abaddon on his own. Bringers joined by abaddon are more than likely to sweep a unit by straight up slaughtering any opposition. Though I suppose there's no reason to get abaddon on his own when you can get a unit of bad ass termies along with him.
Don't forget they fit in a regular dreadclaw though, you don't HAVE to go all out on the kharybdis. You run less of a risk of wiping units with a squad of 5.

Regular Claw doesn't have Inertial Guidance and (however helpful it might be) a bunch of S6 pinning shots.

You don't really need the guidance if you plan on assaulting and it's less than half the cost of the kharybdis so suits a 1500 points army better. You could just deepstrike a unit of 5, but then they're out in the open for a turn. If you can afford the points you would be better of with a kharybdis but yea, the regular claw is enough to get the job done and points are going to be tight enough in a 1500 list.

Dreadclaws are skimmers, you drop them somewhere safe then turboboost where you want to be. Preferably with several other units deepstriking near it so people don't focus down your av12 droppod, though the jink save does make it surprisingly sturdy.
If you're just going to deepstrike your termies though, then you might as well just use a terminator annihilation force.

Thanks for the help =).

If i had a dread or kharybdis, i would take the dreadclaw as it is cheaper and i only want to transport 5 models inside. A big bunch of Termis with Abaddon might look cool in an kharybdis, but they are already very expansive.

So aktually i play the Hounds of Abaddon, Raptor Talon and the bringers of Dispair or the Chosen of Abaddon.

If i take the bringers of dispair, i have no psycic defence or can get some psy powers, as i don't have the points for some sorcerers left =(.

It's worth noting that the Dreadclaw is quite easy to kitbash from a Drop Pod (or even a Meiotic Spore), whereas a Kharybdis (and likewise a Spartan) is either an advanced conversion or a rather pricey & daunting FW kit.

Not sure how the reserve rules are on the Dreadclaw, but leaving abba and his unit in reserves is leaving too much up to chance, and if you put him on the board it has to be in a landraider, and by then its all just too big of an investment imo.

He's a super trooper, but you're really taking a chance with him. It could end up a tragedy with you wondering should you laugh or cry. But that's the name of the game, the winner takes it all.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Not sure how the reserve rules are on the Dreadclaw, but leaving abba and his unit in reserves is leaving too much up to chance, and if you put him on the board it has to be in a landraider, and by then its all just too big of an investment imo.

Either claw is just a drop pod. They come in on turn 1, no rolls are made. Well half come in but yea.

Now that might work.

I'm interested in running a Word Bearers Grand Host with a Lost and the Damned as a Core and a summoning DP, but I'm having trouble deciding on a good Auxiliary formation to take with it. Any ideas?

edit: words

How many points are you thinking of going? There's things to be said for the Daemon Engine formations; DP has a 50/50 chance of getting Cursed Earth (assuming you take Malefic Tome) and buffing their invulnerables. Spawn would give you a strong unit that can keep pace with a flying DP even better than Crusader Cultists so you can occasionally Sacrifice one that's lost a couple of wounds anyway; if you're in a big battle and about to force a lot of Ld tests, bringing in a Herald of Nurgle with Doomsday Bell can contribute to a critical mass. (I'd also recommend a Sorcerer with Scripts of Erebus and Spell Familiar; can babysit a Cultist unit that needs to hold an objective, and ensure you don't spend a turn without Summoning anything. Give him a Palanquin if you don't want him to die on t2).

How about Allies? A Pink Horrors unit with Herald & Locus of Creation is top tier stuff and fits army fluff. Would also enable Belakor to come along and give Obliterators a decent buff.

Most people in my area play 1500 points, so I am aiming for that to begin with.

A DP, LatD, some Nurgle Spawn and a Nurgle sorcerer fit nicely into 1000 points, so that seems like a good starting point. Which of the Daemon Engine formations do you find work well? I like the idea of maulerfiends and obliterators but am not sure how to make use of the warpsmith. I haven't really looked into daemon allies yet but I really should. Bringing Belakor along would be fun too because I think he's a great character in the lore.

Cheers for your input!

Give a COD Warpsmith a Plasma Pistol and he'd got decent synergy as a member of an Obliterator unit that's going to get up close. As for the rest of the formation, a DS Nurgle Mutie is a fairly capable Distraction Carnifex. If you take Belakor, also take a Haemotrope Reactor to upgrade their Plasma Cannons to Large Blast and their Plasma Guns to Blast - Prescience will mostly eliminate bad scatters.

As for a Helforged Warpacksmith, I'd probably put him in one of your Cultist units, giving them Ld 10 without having to be babysat by the Dark Apostle. His ability to repair isn't brilliant, in most cases you get better use out of him as a BS5 gunslinger or Cursing a dakkatank or just using Crusader to get closer to a fight with his mass of Power Axe attacks.

Since there's no Palanquin model, I'll note that I found a Blightking with a load of Nurglings around his feet a great alternative (might be worth waiting for the Death Guard release, though the other four BKs make good Spawn). Our Summoners tend to cast and hurt themselves just as much as other mortal daemonolgists - the 3+ means they do so faster, so extra Wounds are a must.

For your 1000pt army, I'd recommend bringing some Flesh Hounds, Flamers, and Screamers (Start Collecting Tzeentch is a great buy) for your Summoning. A Bloodthirster would be incredible, but a very expensive purchase with no guarantee of being used.

Hmm, I was trying to get a list together for "the tormented". There's no way you can make a competive list with possessed but if anybody is interested: here
Anyway, that got me thinking about a BL slaanesh daemon prince, or well, since princes aren't legion locked, any slaanesh prince with a daemon weapon would do actually.

Infernal claws from ectomancy works well on all princes due to them having smash, thus resolving the bonus attacks at AP2.
And since hits count, having hatred from BL is a huge boon for this, plus quicksilver adds another attack due to not replacing a weapon like the other legions.
A slaanesh prince however also has rending stock, so all those bonus attacks also benefit from rending. With AP2 due to smash, so they can blow up vehicles too.
With quicksilver a slaanesh prince has 7 attacks base, +1 from two CCW and +1 from infernal claws and with a daemon weapon you're looking at a minimum of 10 attacks on the charge.
Any less and the weapon is rebelling, but even then, with hatred the the free hits might turn it around yet.
Generating another 20, all of which are capable of at least glancing AV12 on a rend. Not to mention the other 10 S7 rending attacks.
There's even a chance they could be instant death attacks with BL if it's your warlord, or you luck out and get it on a gift but the trait is way more likely by comparison.

Would be a nice alternative to the ubiqitous nurgle mace prince and more flexible as you can attack anything you want really. Crusader and fleet plus the extra 3 inch run make such a BL prince pretty fast too.
Even if you don't roll infernal claws, the discipline is still pretty good and you still kick ass in melee, just not quite a much.

On the subject of Word Bearers summoning, is it worth it to run two DPs, one with Malefic Tome, the other with Scripts of Erebus? I would think it would be safer than trying to summon with Sorcerers, who will usually hurt themselves trying to summon anything. I'm not sure it would fit well into a Grand Host detachment though, as two kitted-out DPs will cost over 600 points. Also, what do you summon with them? Flesh hounds? Daemonettes? Flamers? Screamers?

As for the Tormented formation, I like Roknar's ideas (and list!). I might just have to steal that idea for my own lists. It's too bad the Tormented are not part of any multi-formation detachments, a point that frankly has me scratching my head (why, GW, why? ). Possessed aren't inherently bad, they just lack a delivery system other than expensive FW stuff. I might have to convert a couple of dreadclaw pods for my Chaos guys.

Sounds really amazing, only problem i see is, that he won't survive very long.

You only have the 3+ armour and a 4+ cover save from jink and the 5++ daemon save. So you need some other fast treats near him or he will die like a fly =(.

I also like your idea with the tormented, sounds really cool. Even if it's not the most competitive formation.

True, but I've tried khorne daemon princes and I've had some success with those. This wouldn't be any less survivable than that.
You could also get the 3++ from ectomancy, helps a little bit.

Competitively the 2+ cover save is hard to pass up, or the re-rollable 2+ relic armours. But I'm getting tired of always defaulting to nurgle
Plus I think a slaanesh prince would be a good conversion opportunity lol. What with their 12 inch move and the 3+ d6 run (with crusader and fleet for BL).

 Darksider wrote:
Sounds really amazing, only problem i see is, that he won't survive very long.

You only have the 3+ armour and a 4+ cover save from jink and the 5++ daemon save. So you need some other fast treats near him or he will die like a fly =(.

I also like your idea with the tormented, sounds really cool. Even if it's not the most competitive formation.

While the Sorcerers are more likely to hurt themselves, MoN + a Palanquin is so much cheaper that you can simply focus on summoning. Princes are too expensive to keep safe, so to speak. They need to be in combat and often.