Loopstah wrote: Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.
it's still an ace model. All they did was give it a firing arc, in a sense. So no more torrenting dudes way behind you. It's still an ap3 flying template, so it's really good vs space marines. (especially with MSU being so popular, can roast squads fairly easy)
jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)
I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard
2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children
jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)
I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard
2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children
3. Thousand Sons
4. Word Bearers
In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.
I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.
I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.
Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.
Loopstah wrote:Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.
You can no longer vector a transport to death and then flame the contents like in 6th, but it's still a serious threat to anything that isn't wearing a 2+ or extreme MSU. I honestly don't think that you can go wrong with including 1 in your list. Of note, even without any skyfiring weapons, it's still d3 str7 ap2 ignores cover hits on a flier/FMC, so it's still capable of putting a 4 wound FMC down in 1 turn with a favourable damage roll and a grounding check. It's not great, but one combined without pointing some autohavoks or a forgefiend skywards can usually get the job done in a pinch. It's never not going to be good against marines, especially since it's our only "real" ignores cover option in a game more and more dominated by cover shenanigans.
Vector Strike wrote:
jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)
I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard
2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children
3. Thousand Sons
4. Word Bearers
DG & WE notably ahead of everything else, then everyone else. Honourable mention to BL on a technicality for the cabal as part of a cabalstar, but that's not really BL, it's just tax free unmarked sorcerors.
SonsofVulkan wrote:In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.
I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.
I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.
Magnus and LoC's arent Thousand Sons. Nick's flying circus list, while technically thousand sons, contains no real sons units, just Magnus and 3 princes. The actual units that one associates with the Sons are pretty terrible anywhere outside a full war cabal IMHO, but the war cabal can do work, there's a couple of reports in the Sons tactica proving that and I've had reasonable success with it in my local setting as well, far, faaaaaaar more than I had when I was previously running a Sons CAD and allied Daemons. I wouldn't place them above DG or WE, but they definatly belong above IW and EC, probably above NL as well. AL are a funny one that seem really, really strong on paper but I haven't seen them translate well into games. The TS are very easy to make a terrible list with, but the couple of strong options are surprisingly strong.
andysonic1 wrote:Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
According to Nick, Magnus was MVP in the majority of the games he played. A lot of people are suddenly rethinking how to use him and that he might not be as bad as everyone first thought. I'll agree with you that TSons didn't win a GT (since I don't really consider Magnus and 3 princes a Sons list even if it technically is), but Magnus is what makes the list, everything else is there to support him and it works (apparently).
Wait, didn't they give back the 360 degree firing arc for a drake wit hthe latest faq that nullified the previous one?
As for the emp children, it's hard to tell if they're really worth it. Probably if you don't overinvest and just accept +1 ini, 6+++ and always swinging at least once with your fist or axe, you'll be ok. The relics are useable. Noize marines are passable. Yep, shredding sonic blasters are ok but they're not relentless, so salvo hurts a lot. I've found them still doing well in small 500-1k games cause sirens are still great and shredding sirens - doubly so. I got rid of blastmasters and took a squad of slaanesh spawns accompanying a biker lord with a d6 shot s8 ap2 relic. When you get more points, just get some extra formations or simply abuse the warband's obsec and a tiny survivability increase. Or maybe ally in some bl mages to get so needed anti-tank and psy shreiks. So that you have an almost army-wide ignore cover.
koooaei wrote: Wait, didn't they give back the 360 degree firing arc for a drake wit hthe latest faq that nullified the previous one?
.
Nope.
Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (pg 52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a hull
mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sight
from the barrel of the gun.
andysonic1 wrote: Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
Anyone got a link to Nick's list? Although it doesn't sound like there'll be much in it apart from Magnus and the DPS.
The Word Beares hit me a lot. Always liked their lore and on 40k like her religious tohc with all the cultists and demonic stuff..........
And their rules are rubbish.
About TS that doesnt use a full war cabal, I think the NEED demons to provide WD yes or yes. The TS are by lore the most powerful on magic and bla bla...but the rules not show that.
TS thread shows them fare pretty good with all the magic stuff they can pull. Yep, they're expensive but decently durable and fearless. Mages everywhere. I've more inclined to move them to 1 or 2 while Night lords and emp children could easilly go to 3. Word bearers are also 3 as they have one of the best cores - the respawning cultist formation and some neat summoning capabilities to bolster scoring. Alpha legion is in a wierd spot. They're great as a source of an allied cultist formation and...not much else. Iron warriors are also easilly in 1 as an allied cad but are not so hot as an army on their own. Don't know about black legion. Deepstrikes without scatter mitigation are 4 for me.
jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)
I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard
2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children
3. Thousand Sons
4. Word Bearers
In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.
I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.
I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.
Is there a video available or a battle report? Just curious how the Dps in the List were kitted out and which other units he used.
andysonic1 wrote: Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.
Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TSCAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).
Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.
Has anyone tried out hte pandemic staff on a DP yet? Was considering taking it over the black mace:
- 15pts cheaper
- would on a 2+ with poison as you are s6 likely will get a re-roll
- makes you s8 and ap2, so 6 s8 ap2 re-rolling 1's against most troops at I7 attacks on the charge (concussive is somewhat redundant).
- Obviously useful ap5 poison 2+ flamer
not a daemon weapon of course but dunno, seems like quite a solid aretfact for a offensive prince.
what wa'll think
(i'm also sick and tired of rollin a freakin 1 on daemon weapons!! xd)
andysonic1 wrote: Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.
Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TSCAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).
Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.
And if I take a CAD with WE Kharn as my warlord and a Cabal Star, it means WE can be top tier. It's disingenuous to call the legion top tier when they have one model who's fantastic, regardless of your warlord choice or what Torrent of Fire records your score as. ITC also counts the faction with the most points in it as your main faction for scoring purposes unless that got changed for the specific tournament. IDK, just my opinion that if you want to say Thousand Sons is the best legion you need more Thousand Sons than any other army in your list. If you do or Nick did, then they're up there.
Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?
andysonic1 wrote: Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.
Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.
Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TSCAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).
Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.
And if I take a CAD with WE Kharn as my warlord and a Cabal Star, it means WE can be top tier. It's disingenuous to call the legion top tier when they have one model who's fantastic, regardless of your warlord choice or what Torrent of Fire records your score as. ITC also counts the faction with the most points in it as your main faction for scoring purposes unless that got changed for the specific tournament. IDK, just my opinion that if you want to say Thousand Sons is the best legion you need more Thousand Sons than any other army in your list. If you do or Nick did, then they're up there.
Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?
Rehati warsect is a TS formation and it's over 1500 pts. My TSCAD is pretty much the majority of the 1850.
Unless you specified the question like I posted earlier, who is to say Thousand Sons might not be the first CSM army to be top 10 at the LVO in a long time. No matter how 1 dimensional they are
Latro_ wrote: Has anyone tried out hte pandemic staff on a DP yet? Was considering taking it over the black mace:
- 15pts cheaper
- would on a 2+ with poison as you are s6 likely will get a re-roll
- makes you s8 and ap2, so 6 s8 ap2 re-rolling 1's against most troops at I7 attacks on the charge (concussive is somewhat redundant).
- Obviously useful ap5 poison 2+ flamer
not a daemon weapon of course but dunno, seems like quite a solid aretfact for a offensive prince.
what wa'll think
(i'm also sick and tired of rollin a freakin 1 on daemon weapons!! xd)
It is a cool pick but suffers from not being the Mace. It is simply a better MC hunter which is a good niche to have.
andysonic1 wrote: Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?
Lords of the Legion is a command choice, not a formation, you may not take them on their own outside of their legions decurion style detatchment, the same way that you can't just shove a unit of deathmarks into an army or take Belakor on his own. Basically, unless the unit in question is an Imperial Knight, single units are never standalone formations. There might be something out there, but I can't bring anything else to mind. Check if it has the little triple circle icon that signifies a formation in the top corner, if not, then you can't take it as a stand alone formation.
andysonic1 wrote: Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?
Lords of the Legion is a command choice, not a formation, you may not take them on their own outside of their legions decurion style detatchment, the same way that you can't just shove a unit of deathmarks into an army or take Belakor on his own. Basically, unless the unit in question is an Imperial Knight, single units are never standalone formations. There might be something out there, but I can't bring anything else to mind. Check if it has the little triple circle icon that signifies a formation in the top corner, if not, then you can't take it as a stand alone formation.
I think you answered my question while not getting my question at all. I was wondering if it was legal to take, say, four Lords of the Legion Command choices in a CSM Legion detachment. Since you say they do not count as formations, then the answer should be yes, correct?
Captyn_Bob wrote: It would all be part of the same detachment as i would understand it?
There is no question about where you would be taking Lord of the Legion. They must be taken in one of the Legion Detachments. They cannot be taken outside of these Detachments.
ITC rules say the following:
Spoiler:
An army may duplicate a single Detachment, one time.
Example: A list may include 2 CADs, but not 3 CADs. Or, a single CAD, and 2 Allied Detachments. Or, 3 Formations, 2 of which are the same Formation, etc.
Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple datasheets and Formations. They may only take a single duplicate Formation, one time within the “Decurion Style” Detachment, although they make take duplicate Data Slate units within the Detachment if permitted to do so. Example: Necrons may take the Decurion with 2 Canoptek Harvest formations within it, but no other duplicate formations.
Note: “Decurion Style” Detachments comprised of multiple sub-detachments count as 1 detachment towards the 3 detachment limit.
This doesn't make explicit mention of Command selections, which are not Formations. Does this then mean I can take four Lords of the Legion in my Butcherhorde?
So, Night Lords and a deep strike army. Decurion with Raptor, terminator annihilation and heldrake formations, and maybe a tzeentch prince, with a comm relay aegis. Heaps of reliably deepstriking low footprint assault melta, lots of ap3 flamers, potential for plenty of telepathy shenanigans, good flyer defense, but does black legion do it better? Any obscure forgeworld stuff that would ally in to its benefit?
Badablack wrote: So, Night Lords and a deep strike army. Decurion with Raptor, terminator annihilation and heldrake formations, and maybe a tzeentch prince, with a comm relay aegis. Heaps of reliably deepstriking low footprint assault melta, lots of ap3 flamers, potential for plenty of telepathy shenanigans, good flyer defense, but does black legion do it better? Any obscure forgeworld stuff that would ally in to its benefit?
With zero reliable deep strike scatter. You get Stealth and Night Fighting +1, why would you ever deep strike Night Lords and risk losing units to mishaps?
If it's really a problem then you bring some 2+ jink bikes with an icon of vengeance for those cramped deepstriking locations. Maybe with an attached sorcerer or lord with the -1 leadership relic or the stormbolt armor. That would add another unit for turn 2 target saturation. But with raptors you don't need to deepstrike right next to them anyway, your charge range is pretty generous with rerolls, and with that much melta the half range bonus isn't crucial either.
I like the world eaters and man do they hit hard! But they are so glass cannon that I can't see them being a top-tier tournament army. MAYBE if they went first they would have a chance to win almost any game against hyper-competitive lists (in Dawn of War deployment) but otherwise I can't see it happening. Let your opponent go first and many armies will put a huge dent in your list (then again, maybe I just fail 3+ saves like it's my job).
That being said, they're still better than any legion outside of Death Guard, and definitely have favorable matchups that Death Guard would struggle against.
So you're taking a warband instead of a Raptor Talon? What will an Icon of Vengeance do for your deep strikes? What will an attached sorcerer or lord with relics do for your deep strikes? Where are you getting charge rerolls? Again, you have nothing that will mitigate deep strike scattering, so the best laid plans can fall apart instantly.
Having a lot of trouble making a 1850 DG list I feel confident in. I'm on the fence between going full msu with a bunch of csm, chosen, havocs and bikes or taking some beefier options. The helldrake aux choice seems decent, especially with 3 squads of autocannon havocs walking around popping transports.
jSewell wrote: Having a lot of trouble making a 1850 DG list I feel confident in. I'm on the fence between going full msu with a bunch of csm, chosen, havocs and bikes or taking some beefier options. The helldrake aux choice seems decent, especially with 3 squads of autocannon havocs walking around popping transports.
Just re-doing mine today as it happens. A lot of this is models i have in this army but might be useful as a frame of reference.
Combined Arms Detachment
Chaos Lord - Morgaustus 165 Mark of Nurgle, Sigil, Power Fist, Lightning Claw
Frag, Krak, Bike, Votlw
Daemon Prince - Sinpox the Rotbringer 275 Daemon of Nurgle, Wings, Armour, Pandemic Staff, Votlw Level 1
3 Obilterators 228 Mark of Nurgle, Votlw Defiler 195 Battle Cannon, Twin Heavy Flamers, 3x Power Fists
Lights, Smoke
Predator 140 Twin Lascannon, Side Lascannons, Lights, Smoke
Its not hyper competitive but more of a good but fun list to play with. Chosen are a test was gonna do them 4x melta and 4x plasma but wanna see how a versatile unit does + wanna make use of that new relentless in the form of the autocannon
andysonic1 wrote: So you're taking a warband instead of a Raptor Talon? What will an Icon of Vengeance do for your deep strikes? What will an attached sorcerer or lord with relics do for your deep strikes? Where are you getting charge rerolls? Again, you have nothing that will mitigate deep strike scattering, so the best laid plans can fall apart instantly.
Night lords decurion gives army wide rerolls on charge, icon of vengeance let's you precision deep strike (has to be vengeance since NL can't take marks), and an allied detachment with some bikes would still benefit from base NL rules. Would need stormplate to tank all the hits.
*edit* Nevermind I'm old and dumb, apparently chaos icons don't let you deep strike onto them anymore? Shows how long it's been since I played a chaos marine army.
jSewell wrote: Having a lot of trouble making a 1850 DG list I feel confident in. I'm on the fence between going full msu with a bunch of csm, chosen, havocs and bikes or taking some beefier options. The helldrake aux choice seems decent, especially with 3 squads of autocannon havocs walking around popping transports.
If he's got 3 kits (he said he can build 3), then a double avenger followed by your choice of paladin or errant (or even a crusader) would probably be the way to go. Or just ebay another avenger gatling cannon off ebay and make 2x double avengers and make all the marine players cry.
Trying to work out a way of doing null deploy Black Legion.
Their formation gives T1 deep strike, so that cxombines really well with the Raptor Talon assault on the turn they deep strike.
However the core detachment I wanted to put in drop pods. Melta Havocs would work super well there. However I don't want to have to take a CAD as well to get the FA slots to put the Dreadclaws in.
You'll have to take a CAD to get dreadclaw for havoks. But they wouldn't be part of the speartip then, and as the drop pod assault rule would apply.. there's no point having the havoks in the BL speartip.
But, the other half of the drop pods could be in the speartip. And the second wave can arrive T1 on a 3+ if in the speartip (if that makes sense. )
So have half the dreadclaws in the speartip, as dedicated transports for chosen or csms
And take an IWCAD , with a hq, 2 oblits, dreadclaws and tank Hunter havoks, and put these in your first wave of drop pod assault. ( Alternatively DG, who are tough but worse on troop tax. )
Now your CAD claws arrive T1 through drop pod assault, and your speartip claws arrive T1 on a 3+(or auto with warlord. )
The warband can null deploy. Chosen and csm can take dedicated claws, you can choose termies and raptors which can already deepstrike and the helbrute can also take a dedicated claw. I don't mind claws at all, especially in a speartip where you can bring all of them in turn 1 (discuss with your opponent, it's a bit weird). That is assuming ObSec claws though, without that...eeeeh I dunno. Although, since you are bringing at least three claws, only one would have to roll for reserves. At that point it might be better to take a black crusade and give them ObSec.
I'd feel more comfortable deepstriking hounds with non ObSec claws though, since they have much more leeway in avoiding mishaps. They don't need to get out turn 1 as opposed to the warband. Still no ObSec though. The berzerkers I'd just keep in normal reserve. Ofc In this case the speartip isn't doing all that much really, least not for the hounds, They're be assaulting turn two with or without the speartip.
Either way a CAD wouldn't be bad for reserve re-rolls. Which would also unlock claws for Havocs rather than helbrutes, which would still be ObSec if you're taking a black crusade, but then you're raptors aren't coming T1.
Black Legion feels like it's full of conflicting choices. You really want ObSec and they have some of the best options for ObSec units in a CAD, but then you're not using the Speartip, which is kinda cool. The speartip requires either a BL warband or the hounds, yet the warband really hurts in a speartip. In order to make up for the lack of ObSec you would really need to put a lot of points in the warband to have enough units to get the most out of preferred enemy, which in turns limits the rest of the list.
The hounds don't really gain much from the speartip either. The best way to get them into assault is still a claw which comes T1 either way and then you're close enough to not need crusader for making charges. And now the claws aren't ObSec which sucks.
The Black crusade decurion on the other hand does very little for Black Legion as they already hate everybody and half the units in the warband are ObSec anyway. Personally I'd rather have access to IA units from the CAD then, than ObSec Bikers, which is the only real difference between a BLCAD and a chaos warband. Havocs having Obsec will matter very rarely since you're only taking 5 anyway and they're more likely to die than contest the objective they're sitting on. So I still feel like a CAD is the best choice. You could still take formations, except I really want to make use of T1 mass deepstriking XD And mixing CAD'S and decurions just gets super expensive.
That list makes my butcher's nails itch. I imagine the focus is to use the psychic phase as your shooting phase and blast units off the table. Almost makes me want to use my WE + KDK list where WE lords are escorted by Flesh Hounds, the units having a 3+ deny the witch. Not that I would be able to deny much without ANY WARP DIE!
Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3* Prince, leevel 3, txeentch, wings, armour , spell familiar.
Daemon CAD
Masque ( huh?)
3 * 10 brimstones
11 brimstones
Aegis line with comms relay.
He won that GT too. Powerful army in the hand of a skilled player.
He didn't have comm relay in his huzzah GT list. I told him Magnus is susceptible to mass grab or warphunter alpha strike Haha.
Covenant wrote: That's the way I play them. But I fail terrible when facing lots of vehicles or big guys.
Chaos Warband
Cheap Lord, Cheap Scourcerer,
min. units of CSM (Melta), Bikes, Havocs (AC), 3 units of chosen (2 units with Melta, 1 with Plasma)
Lost and the Damned
7 units of cultists (We still play it pre FAQ because of fluff And I own 15 units of 10-man Cultists)
2 Helldrakes
What has the FAQ changed about it? I'm not overly familiar with warbands and such, is your army using the AL rules, such as I am Alpharius etc?
The Warband-rules for AL cultists and the rules of the lost and damned do not stack. We play it that way that I potentially get two units back. I am really happy with this rule. But I feel, that I use to many cultists now...
Night lords decurion gives army wide rerolls on charge, icon of vengeance let's you precision deep strike (has to be vengeance since NL can't take marks), and an allied detachment with some bikes would still benefit from base NL rules. Would need stormplate to tank all the hits.
*edit* Nevermind I'm old and dumb, apparently chaos icons don't let you deep strike onto them anymore? Shows how long it's been since I played a chaos marine army.
I saw the point about precision deep strike and immediately went to Traitor Legions to look for it. Not fair getting my hopes up like that.
So what is the correct way to use cultist from Lost and Damned in an AL insurgency force? Is it two separate rolls of 2 potential units or a rule that does nothing? The faq just says they don't interact in any stackable way.
Claas wrote: So what is the correct way to use cultist from Lost and Damned in an AL insurgency force? Is it two separate rolls of 2 potential units or a rule that does nothing? The faq just says they don't interact in any stackable way.
No idea. I would play it as two rolls but maximum of one cultist unit. That way you are following the rules as written but aren't getting "stacked" benefits.
Claas wrote: So what is the correct way to use cultist from Lost and Damned in an AL insurgency force? Is it two separate rolls of 2 potential units or a rule that does nothing? The faq just says they don't interact in any stackable way.
No idea. I would play it as two rolls but maximum of one cultist unit. That way you are following the rules as written but aren't getting "stacked" benefits.
That's actually how I have played it due to only having 60 cultists.
Claas wrote: So what is the correct way to use cultist from Lost and Damned in an AL insurgency force? Is it two separate rolls of 2 potential units or a rule that does nothing? The faq just says they don't interact in any stackable way.
No idea. I would play it as two rolls but maximum of one cultist unit. That way you are following the rules as written but aren't getting "stacked" benefits.
That's actually how I have played it due to only having 60 cultists.
Isn't the second roll stacking, since it improves the odds the unit will return to the board? I would never bring up the issue myself, but I know many people who would.
Claas wrote: So what is the correct way to use cultist from Lost and Damned in an AL insurgency force? Is it two separate rolls of 2 potential units or a rule that does nothing? The faq just says they don't interact in any stackable way.
No idea. I would play it as two rolls but maximum of one cultist unit. That way you are following the rules as written but aren't getting "stacked" benefits.
That's actually how I have played it due to only having 60 cultists.
Isn't the second roll stacking, since it improves the odds the unit will return to the board? I would never bring up the issue myself, but I know many people who would.
Yes. If you do more than exactly what one rule says, you have stacked them in some way, and you can not stack them in *any* way, so you get to use one rule, exactly as written.
Edit: I also HATE that they used the word "stack" like it's something defined in the rules anywhere. Now people are going to argue or just genuinely be confused about what the FAQ means. It means the rules don't interact, you don't get to use a part that appears in both, you don't get 2 dice but 1 unit, you don't get 2 dice and 2 units, and you don't get 1 dice but 2 units. You get 1 dice to maybe get 1 unit.
Nurglitch wrote: There's the option of a Black Legion Raptor Talon deep-striking on turn 1, and planting a Dimensional Key in some unfortunate.
Yea, but it kind of defeats it's own purpose since you now need to keep all your units in reserve until turn two like everybody else. It's still a better deepstrike than normal but the formation bonus is kind of lost.
It's a little awkward lol. You'd want to use a different detachment since only a single unit benefits from T1 deepstrike, but then you can't activate the key anymore.
Might be better to stick with a cabal and fish for the right psychic powers and then use a Black Crusade detachment or CAD to activate the key.
Or go full BL and just say "screw it" and risk it without the key.
Nurglitch wrote: There's the option of a Black Legion Raptor Talon deep-striking on turn 1, and planting a Dimensional Key in some unfortunate.
Yea, but it kind of defeats it's own purpose since you now need to keep all your units in reserve until turn two like everybody else. It's still a better deepstrike than normal but the formation bonus is kind of lost.
It's a little awkward lol. You'd want to use a different detachment since only a single unit benefits from T1 deepstrike, but then you can't activate the key anymore.
Might be better to stick with a cabal and fish for the right psychic powers and then use a Black Crusade detachment or CAD to activate the key.
Or go full BL and just say "screw it" and risk it without the key.
You deepstrike 2/3 of your army than 2/3 of those 2/3 mishaps and 1/2 of those 2/3 of those 2/3 goes back into ongoing reserves. So, the key is kinda useful 1/3 of the time when the key bearer doesn't mishap. If he somehow manages to survive the turn being just a regular 3-wound raptor guy with a couple more raptors around.
Nurglitch wrote: There's the option of a Black Legion Raptor Talon deep-striking on turn 1, and planting a Dimensional Key in some unfortunate.
Yea, but it kind of defeats it's own purpose since you now need to keep all your units in reserve until turn two like everybody else. It's still a better deepstrike than normal but the formation bonus is kind of lost.
It's a little awkward lol. You'd want to use a different detachment since only a single unit benefits from T1 deepstrike, but then you can't activate the key anymore.
Might be better to stick with a cabal and fish for the right psychic powers and then use a Black Crusade detachment or CAD to activate the key.
Or go full BL and just say "screw it" and risk it without the key.
You deepstrike 2/3 of your army than 2/3 of those 2/3 mishaps and 1/2 of those 2/3 of those 2/3 goes back into ongoing reserves. So, the key is kinda useful 1/3 of the time when the key bearer doesn't mishap. If he somehow manages to survive the turn being just a regular 3-wound raptor guy with a couple more raptors around.
It's further awkward in that a comms relay really helps. In combination with the key, you would not scatter and thanks to re-rolls most of those 2/3 (or 100% if you really push it) would actually arrive turn 2, but of course, you can't have that with the speartip so you need a CAD ( or iron warriors I guess). So yea, the speartip makes the key work, but then you don't get anything else out of the spear tip and you really want a comms relay, aka CAD, aka not a speartip.
It works, but from a design perspective it's hardly ideal. The thing that lets you deepstrike somewhat decently is the thing you don't want when you want to deepstrike decently. It's like ordering a fancy drink then eating the cherry and pouring the rest away.
You get your cherry but it's such a waste.
first because give to the AL a rule more or less clsoe to the one they already have is *****
But no stack? ok, what that means?
Exactly. They didn't actually define "stack" within their game terms, so we have to go with the colloquial meaning (like so much else they write). So it would mean you can't benefit from both rules in any way, shape, or form.
As I said above:
It means the rules don't interact, you don't get to use a part that appears in both, you don't get 2 dice but 1 unit, you don't get 2 dice and 2 units, and you don't get 1 dice but 2 units. You get 1 dice to maybe get 1 unit.
also, why not stack if they are different rules with different names?
Captyn_Bob wrote: Yeaahhh but as human beings with free will, we can ignore nonsense interpretations that do nothing, and come up with our own sensible ones.
Yeah this is still irritating me. Keep bugging them on Facebook.
I agree, but technically, it's not the interpretation that does nothing at this point, it's the rule that does nothing
Plus, not everyone can rely on house-ruling things :/
Ran a Night Lord 1850 list at a GT this past weekend. Went 1 and 4... Not good. Major takeaways:
Night Lord Talons that are gonna deep strike must have comms relays. I played 3 games where stuff didn't get on the table until turn 4... Like 40%+ of my stuff. Every game felt like I was fighting with one hand behind my back.
I had a fire raptor, but I think Helldrakes might be the way forward. I really like the negative leadership hit there, and vector strike and a template are a little too tasty to pass up on.
Stormbolt armor on a Tzeentch DP stole Slay the Warlord from my opponents every game. It's nasty. I only really got use out of him as a sorcerer, but still did solid damage and dodged a lot of bullets.
I dropped my dreadclaw in favor of two rhinos. I regret this. Less speed, no guaranteed T1 deep strike, rhinos just didn't synergize with my list.
Finally I'm on the fence about MSU for raptors... It makes them much easier to deepstrike, but when reserves got wonky, a squad of 6 wasn't cutting it. Thinking I might go with bigger squads, at least to encircle the Lord.
The interpretation is also lacking. Stacking implies some for m of addition. That's not happening here. The death of one unit triggers two completely separate rules that work in isolation from each other. There is no stacking, technically speaking. Two +1 boni to a save stack to give a 2+ bonus. It's only stacking here if you consider it a +1 bonus to creating a new unit, but that's really not how the rules work. They really shouldn't have worded it like that... or any other way, it's total BS.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Finally I'm on the fence about MSU for raptors... It makes them much easier to deepstrike, but when reserves got wonky, a squad of 6 wasn't cutting it. Thinking I might go with bigger squads, at least to encircle the Lord.
MSU doesn't really work all that well unless you're Death Guard. I mentioned this to someone else but I think deep striking your raptors is a bad idea with Night Lords. Your cover saves get pretty stupid turn one. Sure you're going to lose a unit or two if the enemy ignores cover, but I figure it's a small price to pay to actually, you know, have your units on the table.
Yeah, it was really hard for me to wrap my head around the murder talon benefits of 2 or more units, but not deepstriking to use that disordered charge. I was so excited to use it, over the course of five games I was still in denial.... The charge from deep strike is so hard to pull of it's not worth it.
Can't you throw in an allied detachment with a sorcerer, 10 cultists and an aegis with comm? They won't get the talon benefits but they're still Night Lords.
Tested the deathguard chosen last night worked out really well. Odd combo 2plasma 1melta 1auto cannon and one flamer in a rhino. Did really act as a Swiss army unit as I'd hoped. Auto cannon with relentless was awesome. First time I fired it I took two hull points off a knight which I admit was lucky.
The mix of weapons durability mobility and even three base attacks really paid off. Gonna run two of these units as standard at 1850.
Also a dp with level 1 and pandemic staff also felt very Swiss army and durable. Poison 2+ flamer was pretty sweet combined with nurgles rot and 5 s8 attacks rerolling 1s against most stuff with no daemon weapon 1 chance was good just seemed like a much better all-rounder than a mace prince
That's honestly sounding God awful. I've been doing 4 Melta Guns and a Flamer plus a Combi-Melta.
I'm expecting Cults to become a thing and it isn't like I need to target more than 5 Melta Guns at something to kill it most of the time.
Speaking of weird squad loadouts, how do people tool out their assorted Marine squads? There are a few oddities I'm working with for my Word Bearers:
Bikes: I run two units of: 3 Bikes with the Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns, and a Champion with a Power Lance. They hunt tanks or isolated squads; Veterans + Favored Scions + Mark of Slaanesh means they will do damage while being fairly expendable.
Basic Marines: Normally, I'm used to "All Bolters, one Melta, and Champ with Combi-Meltagun". However, when I was tweaking my main army, I ended up with 4 points leftover! I normally like having "symmetrical" loadouts between most of my army, and so I changed my Marines to have the following loadout: 2 Marines with Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, 1 Marine with Boltgun, 1 Marine with a Meltagun and extra Close Combat Weapon, and a Champion with a Combi-Melta. Though it's messy and mixed-up, the result is the unit can either fire two Bolters, two Meltaguns, or "finish off" weaker units in Assault. Depending on if I want to shoot or charge, either the Bolter Marine or one of the Pistol Marines gets to chuck the squad grenade.
Terminators: Normally I've been a fan of running nothing but Power Axes, but I'm now pondering whether there's merit to mix-and-matching melee weapons on the Termicide (giving the Champion something else, that is). It's nit-picky, but the extra AP is probably not "as" important compared to being able to strike at initiative or to have the raw strength of a Maul. Am I just being crazy? (For Death Guard, Axes all the way though)
Havocs: I don't have any builds with Havocs yet, but one thing I've been really pondering is whether there are cases where it's worth taking the squad as "two missile launchers, two autocannons?" The unit costs 125 points instead of 115, but both weapons have the same range band, both weapons have similar strength values, the only difference being you're trading the extra shots for the lower AP/better strength. Part of me thinks that 10 points to threaten Bikers to want to Jink is worth the net loss of efficiency, but maybe I'm being crazy.
first because give to the AL a rule more or less clsoe to the one they already have is *****
But no stack? ok, what that means?
also, why not stack if they are different rules with different names?
It means you can't bring two cultist units back from one being wiped out. But you do get two chances to try and bring the single unit back. Stacking refers to receiving the same benefit (I. E. A returning unit) more than once.
MagicJuggler wrote: Speaking of weird squad loadouts, how do people tool out their assorted Marine squads? There are a few oddities I'm working with for my Word Bearers:
Bikes: I run two units of: 3 Bikes with the Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns, and a Champion with a Power Lance. They hunt tanks or isolated squads; Veterans + Favored Scions + Mark of Slaanesh means they will do damage while being fairly expendable.
Basic Marines: Normally, I'm used to "All Bolters, one Melta, and Champ with Combi-Meltagun". However, when I was tweaking my main army, I ended up with 4 points leftover! I normally like having "symmetrical" loadouts between most of my army, and so I changed my Marines to have the following loadout: 2 Marines with Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, 1 Marine with Boltgun, 1 Marine with a Meltagun and extra Close Combat Weapon, and a Champion with a Combi-Melta. Though it's messy and mixed-up, the result is the unit can either fire two Bolters, two Meltaguns, or "finish off" weaker units in Assault. Depending on if I want to shoot or charge, either the Bolter Marine or one of the Pistol Marines gets to chuck the squad grenade.
Terminators: Normally I've been a fan of running nothing but Power Axes, but I'm now pondering whether there's merit to mix-and-matching melee weapons on the Termicide (giving the Champion something else, that is). It's nit-picky, but the extra AP is probably not "as" important compared to being able to strike at initiative or to have the raw strength of a Maul. Am I just being crazy? (For Death Guard, Axes all the way though)
Havocs: I don't have any builds with Havocs yet, but one thing I've been really pondering is whether there are cases where it's worth taking the squad as "two missile launchers, two autocannons?" The unit costs 125 points instead of 115, but both weapons have the same range band, both weapons have similar strength values, the only difference being you're trading the extra shots for the lower AP/better strength. Part of me thinks that 10 points to threaten Bikers to want to Jink is worth the net loss of efficiency, but maybe I'm being crazy.
Autocannons are still king. We have Heldrakes or Blight Drones if we really want to kill Bikers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding Power Weapons on Terminators, Maule and Axes all the way. Power Fist per four I have, but otherwise keep them specialized. Before we got this major boost, I've used Termicide with MoK and then either Mauls or Axes with decent effect. Now it just works even better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's honestly sounding God awful. I've been doing 4 Melta Guns and a Flamer plus a Combi-Melta.
I'm expecting Cults to become a thing and it isn't like I need to target more than 5 Melta Guns at something to kill it most of the time.
I know it sounds like a complete mishmash squad, it surprised me how allrounded and useful it was though!
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Played at a ITC tournament today hosted by Golden Sprue GT winner Nick Nanavati.
My G2 was against Nick, and boy was it a crazy slugger fest, Magnus vs. Magnus. Nick ran the same list he did at the GT, which was posted earlier.
My list: CAD:
Sorcerer: MoT,
10xCultist: MoT 10xCultist: MoT Magnus (warlord)
Void Shield Generator:3x Shields
Omniscent Oracles
Fateweaver
Lord of Change: ML3, Impossible Robe, staff of change
Allied DET
HoT-ML3, Grim, disc
5xScreamers
10xBlue Horrors
ITC Mission: Purge the Alien
I won the roll off and made Nick go first.
Turn 1 he couldn't do much because he deploy his princes farther back and mainly because of my void shield. He flew his princes forward and summoned plague drones and horrors. My turn 1 I was able to take out one of his DP thanks to a lucky rolled of 6 for the Prismatic gaze giving me first strike.
Next few turns, he kept summoning a few more stuff and pulling farther ahead in maelstrom. Turn 2 his Magnus casted force and took out my Lord of Tz in assault when I rolled a 2 and then roll a 1 on Fatey's re-roll. He also deep struck the masque near Fatey and shut down his movement forcing Fatey to go into glide mode on my turn. T3 he took out Fatey by vector striking 2 DPs and a bunch of high rolls on shriek. He did however peril one of his DP and failed grounding check which allowed me to assault and kill it with my Magnus.
I pretty much gave up on maelstrom and focused mainly on taking out his summoned units and the brimstone horrors. I was a ahead in KPs thanks to Screamer star and Magnus. Nick somehow caught up on KPs when we went to turn 6 because I finally failed Grim on the screamers(we tied on Turn 5). I was on the verge of losing, so I made a last ditch effort and threw the rest of my 4 remaining warp dices on flicker fire (level3) and took out his Chariot of Tz allowing me to win primary.
Final score 6-6 Tie. I rolled like crap this game(like always) and he made a lot of good saves. Man it was crazy
first because give to the AL a rule more or less clsoe to the one they already have is *****
But no stack? ok, what that means?
also, why not stack if they are different rules with different names?
It means you can't bring two cultist units back from one being wiped out. But you do get two chances to try and bring the single unit back. Stacking refers to receiving the same benefit (I. E. A returning unit) more than once.
Two dice rolls is benefitting from part of both rules.
You are stacking them in some way if you roll two dice.
It's not a house ruling something to interpret a vague FAQ in a way that makes a new rule, not completely meaningless.
Strictest RAW, they are two separate rules with different names, so do not stack in any way, just like another other two completely different rules. In the spirit of things, I would ignore strictest RAW and interpret the FAQ answer in a sensible, and not pointless way.
The thing is, we know this didn't make it past a rules author, we've seen the email that this came from, it was a knee jerk response, that somehow got released. Maybe a real traitor legions FAQ will come out sometime.
Strictest RAW, they are two separate rules with different names, so do not stack in any way, just like another other two completely different rules. In the spirit of things, I would ignore strictest RAW and interpret the FAQ answer in a sensible, and not pointless way.
Which means ignore it entirely.
That's the thing. Yeah it clearly didn't make it through any kind of testing or editing or thought process at all, but if the two rules having different names alone means they don't stack but are both used, then there's no reason for the FAQ answer to exist in the way it does. The wording it has, I mean. The "strictest RAW" is that they do not "interact in any stackable way" because that is explicitly stated. If your stance then becomes "Well that's a vague wording, they don't interact anyway, so I get to use both regardless" then you're ignoring the actual written word and assuming (interpreting) that they answered the question in that way because the rules would both be usable and non-interactive with each other at the same time. If that were true, the answer would have actually just been "use both rules." Since that's not what they said, we don't get to use any part of both, meaning we get to use only one. Anything else is yes, a house rule.
Take it to ymdc if you disagree.
For actual tactics: Has anyone playing IW been doing the fortification auxiliary to a Grand Company and what are you taking? I have the vengeance weapons batteries but I haven't used the actual Grand Company yet.
I think the fortifications bring something unique to the game play... but I honestly don't like the Chaos Warband formation I have to take to get to them. Just bringing as many fortifications can surprise most opponents.... if you take as many battle cannon weapon batteries possible it's even more striking. At the end of the day optimizing to get the most of the reroll by taking all those battle cannons... you can end up with an army that can put out more pie plates than an IG tank army. However it's much more static and less flexible.
For IW I like additionally taking some Wall of Martyr bunkers for Havoc Squads and a Reactor for Obliterators... I think there is a lot of potential for strategy in how you layout your fortifications... take tank trap upgrades and keep Knights and drop pods away from your battle lines. Take the shipping containers and you can layout an obstacle that funnels your opponent into tighter clumps for your battle cannons to shoot at.
All that said, I want to see what people think of just taking multiple CADs with individual Obliterators filling out troop slots... HQ choices are generally worthwhile... so for each HQ and 2 Obliterators you get the fortification and lord of war slot from the CAD. The minimum CAD for IW gives us what we want and gives us such flexibility to take pretty much anything we might need in great numbers. Imagine 1 sorcerer, 2 individual Obliterators... Havoc squads and some fortifications ...repeated a couple more times. Or using the multiple minimal CADs to then take multiple Chaos or Renegade Knights supported by those scoring Obliterators.
first because give to the AL a rule more or less clsoe to the one they already have is *****
But no stack? ok, what that means?
also, why not stack if they are different rules with different names?
It means you can't bring two cultist units back from one being wiped out. But you do get two chances to try and bring the single unit back. Stacking refers to receiving the same benefit (I. E. A returning unit) more than once.
Two dice rolls is benefitting from part of both rules.
You are stacking them in some way if you roll two dice.
No it isn't, what if you fail both rolls? You get zero benefits and have nothing to stack.
If you pass one roll you get a single benefit and have nothing to stack.
If you pass both rolls you would get two separate benefits which would in theory stack by RAW, but has been disallowed by the FAQ as this probably wasn't intended.
The dice rolls themselves aren't benefits. If we were talking about a re-roll it would be a different situation, but these are two separate rules.
Fun post, i'm reading the latest fabius bile novel and we all know he's um not great on the tabletop but...
If you were forced to take him in an army how would you build around him to make full use of him and his rules.
For traitor legions you are obviously gonna need to take a CAD with him in with probably 2 units of cultists.
I was thinking run him with a WE list to give one of the units of Khorne marines +1S so they are S6 on the charge with 4 attacks and a power fist is s10!
WEs would be my first choice. All or nothing first turn rush, preferably with invisibility support.
DG or EC are good for their fnp options , but less punch and mobility. EC character with steed for outflank could be fun.
A nearby TS character could provide jump.
I love Fabius, he's my army's spiritual leader, but is so naff on the table. I facepalmed when the novel has his staff cutting through power armour like butter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Funny that in all cases you are wasting fearless.
How about hounds of abaddon ?
Go hounds and take a nurgle sorc. Curse of leper can give you fearless, hatred S8 T5 marines. WE are still more usable though since the hounds pretty much require a claw or a TS character. WE can get there on their own.
What if you get 20 alpha legion dudes with a mindveil character? They'll be shrowded 1-st turn too. Not quite as durable but they would get infiltrate (if you join the character later on - not a problem with a bike) and benefit from fearless.
andysonic1 wrote: For the World Eater Butcherhorde's charge reroll rule, do I get to reroll one of the die or do I need to roll both?
From the way it's worded, I assume both but could be wrong. Most rules will explicitly state "one or both dice" while this just says "reroll any failed charge rolls." Both dice are part of the roll.
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Its all in the wording.
Joined ic don't get squad rules. Including the ones granted by formaions.
It came up when one of the guyz tried to run Calgar to charge out of reserves with sm vet formation - you know, the one where they can deepstrike without scatter, aren't penalized for a disoriented charge, can come on whatever turn they want without a roll and get 5 ppm power weapons cause sm.
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Its all in the wording.
Joined ic don't get squad rules. Including the ones granted by formaions.
It came up when one of the guyz tried to run Calgar to charge out of reserves with sm vet formation - you know, the one where they can deepstrike without scatter, aren't penalized for a disoriented charge, can come on whatever turn they want without a roll and get 5 ppm power weapons cause sm.
Im not doubting you, would not be the first time I have gotten a rule wrong. But as of yet no one has questioned my inclusion of IC's in my raptor talon. Do you mind letting me know where that ruling is located? I could have sworn I checked the base rulebook for it.
It's a very obscured one and comes out as a result of a couple rules spread out across the rulebook (but still not clear enough). It's also in the faq where they cleared things out a bit.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
This.
He's in the speartip, so he gets the speartip rules. He's not in the Raptor Talon, so he doesn't get the Raptor Talon rules.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
No, it doesn't, because the formation that grants the rule is the Raptor Talon, not the speartip. The required Raptor Talon Lord can do it (since he's part of the raptor talon formation and as such, get the rules), but not the Lord required for a warband (since he's not part of a raptor talon, even though they're all in the same meta formation) or anyone else who's not part of the Raptor Talon (since they don't have the Rapton Talon exclusive rules and therefore can't be part of their specil club).
Well there it is. That will teach me to read the BRBFAQ. Its to bad Ive done it in two games so far, feels terrible to inadvertently cheat someone, even if its just a game of models. I have to admit that hurts my BL list a great deal as I included a khorne lord froma world eaters CAD in my talon drops. Back to the drawing board. Thanks for clearing that up guys.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
No, it doesn't, because the formation that grants the rule is the Raptor Talon, not the speartip. The required Raptor Talon Lord can do it (since he's part of the raptor talon formation and as such, get the rules), but not the Lord required for a warband (since he's not part of a raptor talon, even though they're all in the same meta formation) or anyone else who's not part of the Raptor Talon (since they don't have the Rapton Talon exclusive rules and therefore can't be part of their specil club).
Tthat's not what the FAQ posted says. Detachment -or- formation is pretty open ended, that language can be construed as giving more than one way that the detachment or formation rules could be applied.
Bach wrote: Tthat's not what the FAQ posted says. Detachment -or- formation is pretty open ended, that language can be construed as giving more than one way that the detachment or formation rules could be applied.
Not really mate, detatchment or formation is simply a catch-all for stuff that hands out free rules for the things it contains. Do the child formations of an Iron Warriors Grand Company (say, a Cult of Destruction for a fluffy example) gain ObSec because the Warband has it? No, that's not how it works, the things from a formation or detatchment get the bonii from that formation or detatchment.
It really is this simple: Is the model part of the Raptor Talon formation when you build your list? If Yes (eg, the mandatory Chaos Lord with the free jump pack or one of the Raptor/Warp Talon units the formation requires), you get the rules. If No (eg, literally anything that's not a part of a Raptor Talon formation at list creation), you don't get the rules. No if's, and's or but's.
This is almost as bad as the people who can't seem to understand that no part of a model may move more than its movement allowance.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Let's call it rustic. Other websites are worse.
The brackets for the 6th Annual account for 5 rounds of play. Is it an elimination bracket, where players are actually removed after each round, or something else?
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Let's call it rustic. Other websites are worse.
The brackets for the 6th Annual account for 5 rounds of play. Is it an elimination bracket, where players are actually removed after each round, or something else?
It's offtopic, but I think if we can agree that free transports SM don't make Eldar balanced then we can agree a website shouldn't not be called bad just because there are still websites up from the nineties. If they have the money to put together a big tournament like this, they have $50 to hire a college student to make them a better website.
On topic: I have no idea how the bracket works. People in Round Two of the bracket aren't in Round One sometimes, it's very bizarre.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Hmm not too optimized, could of probably done better by bringing in daemons for more WCs.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Hmm not too optimized, could of probably done better by bringing in daemons for more WCs.
The event in question limits lists to a single faction I believe.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
This is the winners bracket. It is accurate. I'm just telling you he went 4-2. This only shows the main winners brackets.
First round was a Seeding round, followed by these two brackets. It would have made no sense to have the fifth game at the end.
So from what I am reading, if I go through with a death guard army it will be close to necrons in level of "I can build an army with whatever I want and be OK in a casual environment"? Assuming it isn't all daemon engines.
I've been really tempted to start the Apostles of Contagion to go with my R&H, as I have Necrosius. Having freedom of "that model is cool, I want to use it" and not worry about the "oh wait, its terrible" part, would be pretty awesome. Looking at you Decimator engine!
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Let's call it rustic. Other websites are worse.
The brackets for the 6th Annual account for 5 rounds of play. Is it an elimination bracket, where players are actually removed after each round, or something else?
The first round is a Challenge round, Faction against itself to prove who is mightiest! So that is not shown sicne it really doesnt need to be. Each Faction plays against itself for the right to fight in either the Omega or Alpha bracket. that's game 1.
The Alpha and Omega bracket is only intended to show you the matchups that led to their ultimate winners after the Challenge round.
I suppose i could easily generate brackets for those other matchups that did not lead to the winners, as I have in the past, but I wanted to get the main two brackets up just so people could see it.
It's offtopic, but I think if we can agree that free transports SM don't make Eldar balanced then we can agree a website shouldn't not be called bad just because there are still websites up from the nineties. If they have the money to put together a big tournament like this, they have $50 to hire a college student to make them a better website.
On topic: I have no idea how the bracket works. People in Round Two of the bracket aren't in Round One sometimes, it's very bizarre.
These are two entirely separate brackets. The bracket shows the actual matchups played in both top brackets. As there were DROPS during the tournament, matchups did change based on standings. So likely the reason you are unclear is because your mind isn't accounting for the possibility of drops.
The important thing to note is that there is one representative from each faction...in each bracket. those who lose along the way did continue to play, as it is an ITC tournament and their overall standing was ITC relevant.
The bracket begins to make sense when accounting for drops, you're right. It's still very confusing as is to anyone not involved in the tournament. It could really use more explanation, and that first Challenge round would be neat to see.
The first round is a Challenge round, Faction against itself to prove who is mightiest! So that is not shown sicne it really doesnt need to be. Each Faction plays against itself for the right to fight in either the Omega or Alpha bracket. that's game 1.
The Alpha and Omega bracket is only intended to show you the matchups that led to their ultimate winners after the Challenge round.
I suppose i could easily generate brackets for those other matchups that did not lead to the winners, as I have in the past, but I wanted to get the main two brackets up just so people could see it.
I think the issue was some people did not understand what the brackets meant. Some explanatory text would solve that quickly.
The first round is a Challenge round, Faction against itself to prove who is mightiest! So that is not shown sicne it really doesnt need to be. Each Faction plays against itself for the right to fight in either the Omega or Alpha bracket. that's game 1.
The Alpha and Omega bracket is only intended to show you the matchups that led to their ultimate winners after the Challenge round.
I suppose i could easily generate brackets for those other matchups that did not lead to the winners, as I have in the past, but I wanted to get the main two brackets up just so people could see it.
I think the issue was some people did not understand what the brackets meant. Some explanatory text would solve that quickly.
I'm planning on getting a CAD to support my Kakophony + Spawn with some FW stuff.
Should I take a "normal" CAD with DP of Slaanesh, Psyker lvl 3 Wings Energetic Armor and Intoxicating Elixir (or Blissgiver) + 2x10 Cultist
Or an Iron Warrior CAD with DP of Slaanesh, Psyker lvl 3, Wings Exosqueletton and 6+ FnP 2x1 Obliterator with 6+ FnP, Tank Killer
This is a really good sign imo. They recognized that they did something that does nothing in game and corrected it. It's definitely not as exciting as possibly getting two units back but it's a definite upgrade to the cultist formation rule.
Good job GW. That initial FAQ was horrendous. It's not two units but it is no longer a useless rule either. I expanded my small Chaos army when Traitor Legions dropped wanting to run it as AL, so that first FAQ was a bitter pill.
Awesome, thanks guys. I kind of like the 3+ more because I don't have to worry about bringing more cultists than I have in my initial list. I also would have been ok with the reroll ruling which is a little bit better though.
I'm planning on getting a CAD to support my Kakophony + Spawn with some FW stuff.
Should I take a "normal" CAD with DP of Slaanesh, Psyker lvl 3 Wings Energetic Armor and Intoxicating Elixir (or Blissgiver) + 2x10 Cultist
Or an Iron Warrior CAD with DP of Slaanesh, Psyker lvl 3, Wings Exosqueletton and 6+ FnP 2x1 Obliterator with 6+ FnP, Tank Killer
Both option cost 440 pts.
Neither is great because DP's aren't great. Ideally, you'd just take an ML3 sorc on bike with spell familiar and call it a day.
Not sure what the Energetic Armour you're refereing to on the ECDP though? Unless it's a google translate of power armour?
If I had to choose, it'd depend on how often I faced str10 ap 2/3, If you face str10 ap2 a bunch, then the EC one since it at least has the chance at being T6+ and not getting doubled out. If you face str10 AP4 (ie maticores or something) or not much str10, then probably the IW one because a 2+ goes a long way and Tank hunting Oblits as troops are pretty decent.
I've run a Night Lords Prince with storm plate a few times now and he is an indestructible monster. Rerollable 2+ armor and cover, and with telepathy and NL bonuses he's psychic shrieking entire units off the table. Just don't attack over your weight class with them, toughness 5 and a mediocre invuln means dedicated combat units will smear them without support.
aka_mythos wrote: If there is some Legion's Daemon Prince that isn't good, I'd call it the exception and not the rule.
With all the available relics that's simply untrue. The weakest by far is the Black Legion Prince, but even then Hatred is helping with those sweet Daemon weapons...
Depends on how you judge them. Like with everything black legion they have the potential to do the most damage per attack, but you're taking a gamble. The mace and axe are always good, but better with black legion. The problem being they need psychic support, which is also better given how you can mix marks without having to mix legions but yea, gambling. Even just just EW,AW, crusader, hatred mixed with +1T,+1S is good on a khorne prince.
aka_mythos wrote: If there is some Legion's Daemon Prince that isn't good, I'd call it the exception and not the rule.
With all the available relics that's simply untrue. The weakest by far is the Black Legion Prince, but even then Hatred is helping with those sweet Daemon weapons...
Hey made a list with WE + Daemonkin. It's a MSU style army with the units i have and i wanted to know if it could compete in a Tournamentstyle meta.
Here's what is in my army. Everything has Mark of Khorne and VotlW.
WE Son's of Angron
Warband
Lord Jumppack with Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, MB 3 Terminators 3x Kombimelta + 1 Chainfist
Helbrute MM+ PF 2x5 CSM with 1 Melta each and a Rhino
5 Raptors 1 Melta + MB 5 Havocs with 2 Plasmarifle + Rhino
Aux
6x2 Spawns
Gorepack
3 Bikers with 2 Plasmarifle
3 Bikers (Champ has LC + PF)
4x5 Fleshhounds
That's 1844 Points.
I know some units are not optimal equipped, but thats the Figures i have and i can use at the moment.
List has over 60 Models, 10 Obsec Units + another 11 Units without Obsec (that's 21 Units for scoring Objectives).
Everything start on Foot and advances forward to the Enemy lines and if possible engage some Units in Closecombat. Rhinos + Brute score my backfield objectives.
Weakness is that i have no real punch and that i have no deathstar counter. Otherwise i have a lot of small Units and i can advance really fast the first turn.
aka_mythos wrote: If there is some Legion's Daemon Prince that isn't good, I'd call it the exception and not the rule.
With all the available relics that's simply untrue. The weakest by far is the Black Legion Prince, but even then Hatred is helping with those sweet Daemon weapons...
Please explain to me how they aren't good?
Well, let's see...
1. World Eaters Princes get the Glaive, which should be self explanatory but I'll do it anyway. It is granting FNP and IWND and he didn't have Independent Characters to begin with. Plus he's got that free AW now which is nice but not too big a deal.
2. Death Guard Princes got a free FNP, and still have access to the Black Mace and the new Daemon Weapon that has poisoned attacks.
3. Emperor's Children Princes get DRUGS and some decent relics. Not my most favorite.
4. Iron Warriors Princes get the IWND 2+ armor and 6+++ for free. Also have some okay relics for melee like the armorbane axe or the less useful Power Maul one.
5. Night Lords Princes have one of THE best relics selections available to them, on top of the nice cover bonus.
6. Thousand Sons Princes have a Daemon Force Weapon and already proved themselves at some tournament recently with Magnus. I don't need to go further than that.
7. Black Legion Princes have a generic Hatred which helps with the potential lack of offense but otherwise have a generic EW relic. Definitely my least favorite.
8. Word Bearers Princes get the benefits to the Malefic table on top of already being Daemons, and have one of the best Warlord traits tables available to them.
9. Alpha Legion Princes are my second least favorite, but still have an icon relic when they can keep up with infiltrating Cultists, another 2+ relic, and a Daemon Weapon that grants additional attacks.
This supplement really gave the tools to make Daemon Princes a force to be reckoned with and it isn't like you face S10 weapons all the time.
Slayer Fan you said that Princes are okay and aka_mythos only wanted to know why you thought that they are not good, cause he thought you find them bad and that they aren't good.
Darksider wrote: Hey made a list with WE + Daemonkin. It's a MSU style army with the units i have and i wanted to know if it could compete in a Tournamentstyle meta.
Here's what is in my army. Everything has Mark of Khorne and VotlW.
WE Son's of Angron
Warband
Lord Jumppack with Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, MB 3 Terminators 3x Kombimelta + 1 Chainfist
Helbrute MM+ PF 2x5 CSM with 1 Melta each and a Rhino
5 Raptors 1 Melta + MB 5 Havocs with 2 Plasmarifle + Rhino
Aux
6x2 Spawns
Gorepack
3 Bikers with 2 Plasmarifle
3 Bikers (Champ has LC + PF)
4x5 Fleshhounds
That's 1844 Points.
I know some units are not optimal equipped, but thats the Figures i have and i can use at the moment.
List has over 60 Models, 10 Obsec Units + another 11 Units without Obsec (that's 21 Units for scoring Objectives).
Everything start on Foot and advances forward to the Enemy lines and if possible engage some Units in Closecombat. Rhinos + Brute score my backfield objectives.
Weakness is that i have no real punch and that i have no deathstar counter. Otherwise i have a lot of small Units and i can advance really fast the first turn.
What do you think?
You're going to be shot to death. If you want to protect that Lord, stick him in a unit of 10 hounds and forgo the turn one charge (smart enemies will deploy far enough away to deny it anyways). Put Rift Anomaly on the Helbrute. Drop a unit of Havocs and increase the two CSM units to 10 each, put flamers on them, stick the rhinos on backfield objectives and keep them there and use the CSM to claim midfield objectives, drop some spawn to allow you to do this. Drop melee weapons on bikes and put meltas on them, they arent fearless so they're better at being ranged annoyances. What is MB on the Lord supposed to be?
Darksider wrote: Guys i think you are talking past each other XD.
Slayer Fan you said that Princes are okay and aka_mythos only wanted to know why you thought that they are not good, cause he thought you find them bad and that they aren't good.
Btw: Any comments to my army list?
I'm not a fan of jump pack lords... When it comes to Chaos deep strike units they're all generally suicide units unless you really triple down and take some overwhelming numbers. How do you plan on using your lord? How do you plan on using your spawn? When it comes to Khorne lords, I find putting them on a juggernaut or bike and giving them either Khorne-dog or spawn as escorts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the "Chaos Warband" is one of the biggest challenges to our armies... it pushes a lot of point inefficient units that are best used in a suicide role. We really aerent left enough for other toys after fullfiling our prequisites.
Also beyond the Warband do WE have a Command Formation requirement? I know other legions have the lord that's required by the Warband, but the overarching formation also require a seperate HQ...
aka_mythos wrote: If there is some Legion's Daemon Prince that isn't good, I'd call it the exception and not the rule.
With all the available relics that's simply untrue. The weakest by far is the Black Legion Prince, but even then Hatred is helping with those sweet Daemon weapons...
Please explain to me how they aren't good?
Well, let's see...
1. World Eaters Princes get the Glaive, which should be self explanatory but I'll do it anyway. It is granting FNP and IWND and he didn't have Independent Characters to begin with. Plus he's got that free AW now which is nice but not too big a deal.
2. Death Guard Princes got a free FNP, and still have access to the Black Mace and the new Daemon Weapon that has poisoned attacks.
3. Emperor's Children Princes get DRUGS and some decent relics. Not my most favorite.
4. Iron Warriors Princes get the IWND 2+ armor and 6+++ for free. Also have some okay relics for melee like the armorbane axe or the less useful Power Maul one.
5. Night Lords Princes have one of THE best relics selections available to them, on top of the nice cover bonus.
6. Thousand Sons Princes have a Daemon Force Weapon and already proved themselves at some tournament recently with Magnus. I don't need to go further than that.
7. Black Legion Princes have a generic Hatred which helps with the potential lack of offense but otherwise have a generic EW relic. Definitely my least favorite.
8. Word Bearers Princes get the benefits to the Malefic table on top of already being Daemons, and have one of the best Warlord traits tables available to them.
9. Alpha Legion Princes are my second least favorite, but still have an icon relic when they can keep up with infiltrating Cultists, another 2+ relic, and a Daemon Weapon that grants additional attacks.
This supplement really gave the tools to make Daemon Princes a force to be reckoned with and it isn't like you face S10 weapons all the time.
I feel like you're downplaying hatred. In theory it's the difference between 66 and 88% chance to hit which is quite significant, but find hatred to be invaluable in practice. It makes huge difference.
YMMV of course, but more often than not, it's often the difference between hitting half and hitting with 90-100% of my attacks. Considering how nasty the black mace or the axe of blind fury are, that's pretty good.
And with T1 assaults you're prince isn't quite as exposed anymore. You'll still want invisibility and what have you though, which other legions aren't as reliant on (and thus cheaper), but when you get into assault a BL prince is pretty nasty.
And I've found that once they're in melee they're fairly safe considering there isn't usually much left to hit back.
You're forgetting that the Daemon Prince was one of the only good things to use in the codex, or at least above mediocre. Now that there is free bonuses out of nowhere, they have their status elevated, see?
Anyone can agree that the Black Mace Nurgle Prince was pretty decent, but that's it. Now there's so many ways to play the Prince itself. I'm especially fearful of a Glaive Prince who really only fears Wraithknights.
You're forgetting that the Daemon Prince was one of the only good things to use in the codex, or at least above mediocre. Now that there is free bonuses out of nowhere, they have their status elevated, see?
Anyone can agree that the Black Mace Nurgle Prince was pretty decent, but that's it. Now there's so many ways to play the Prince itself. I'm especially fearful of a Glaive Prince who really only fears Wraithknights.
I don't think you're reading what I've been writing closely enough.
Someone else said Daemon princes were bad.
I was skeptical.
I said Daemon Princes are good.
I then ask "how Daemon Princes are bad?"
I think Daemon Princes are good.
I just wanted to know if there was something I wasn't aware of.
Would i be best to run berserkers from the maelstrom formation in MSU? Rhinos wouldn't work since the 2D6 opening move is for non vehicles..Id like to try units of 8 on foot to benefit from the 2d6, but 5 man units might be better. I have no idea though.
Leave the Berserker Marines at minimum and nothing else. Use them as a deterrent (though they aren't good at that) against Deep Strike units or outflankers.
What I've heard when it comes to WE and Berzerkers... basic WECSM are close enough to Berzerkers that WE players aren't bothering to take Berzerkers... it boils down to the added point cost of Berzerkers over a CSM squad make it more efficient to just take more CSM.
ECDP can get a daemon weapon too, but I find the Black mace to be superior (T instead of Ld test to remove from play, and also cvomes with the explosion...)
aka_mythos wrote: What I've heard when it comes to WE and Berzerkers... basic WECSM are close enough to Berzerkers that WE players aren't bothering to take Berzerkers... it boils down to the added point cost of Berzerkers over a CSM squad make it more efficient to just take more CSM.
It depends on how you're taking them. In a CAD, CSM are waaay better than Berzerkers. But in a Butcherhorde if you want to save points, taking the MoG is cheaper than a Warband if you keep the Berzerkers MSU. This allows you to put points into other units like Juggerlords + Spawn or even get some Heldrakes. The Warband needs to be kitted out to make any kind of effect, and if you aren't going to kit it out you're better off taking a MoG since those Berzerkers are going to be extra mean in CQC (red rain) + have the extra charge distance. It all comes down to how and where you're going to spend your points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SonsofVulkan wrote: Currently 2 TS Magnus lists made it to the top 8 of LVO.
I'm sure when the other Deamon Primarchs start coming the other legions will get boosts as well. The Ultramarines will most likely start jumping up the charts after march.
It would be nice if we didn't need Magnus to get that far.....
As for WE, yea my idea was a cheap butcherhorde. If you take the minimum in berzerkers, no rhino or chainaxes at 5 men only, that pretty cheap. If i need bodies i was thinking khornate lost and damned. Something about a bunch of frothing maniac cultists that screams khorne to me. However, I'd rather not take the lost and damned by itself. That leaves auxilleries. Raptor talon loses out on rage if you Deep Strike then charge, plus your pretty likely to charge the enemy with your foot units before they can even come down. Thing is the khrone lord do i put him in a unit of berzerk and hope for the best? I feel spawn are wasted since they aren't nurgle spawn and already have rage.
Never run a lord with berzerkers. Never. Your lord needs wounds around him to take the heat while he rushes forward. Spawn fill that role no matter what mark they have. 3 wounds for 30 points, you can take up to 5. That is insane.
Take multiple lords in multiple units of spawn. The zerkers are there to fill gaps between your lords. Take empty rhinos to sit on backfield objectives. Everything else moves forward until the enemy is dead. Welcome to world eaters, prepare to get shot a lot.
Spawn are cool. They dont deal well with elite brawlers but they are otherwise superlative as a ball o wounds to accompany a bike commander or jump commander
Fleshounds no, and if i did i might as well play KDK which i will not do. Spawn just those 5, Bikes require the warband as do raptors plus i dont think a juggernaut can join the raptors
You want ranged support and bikers anywayz. Well, could live w/o termies or chosen. Regular csm are ok as a bit overly expensive but decent midboard point holders. They produce a frightening amount of s5 attacks - possibly with to-hit rerolls. There's not much stuff that wants to get close to them outside of hardy mellee units.
Not that zerkers with the formation rules are bad. They will more likely get there on the 1-st turn. Which is great. And they'll leave more place for ranged allies like an iron warrior obliterator cad.
speaking of dP's i'v tried a DG one with the pandemic staff twice now and he's been great! real jack of all trades. S8 attacks, 2+ poision flamer is great especially combined with some of the nurgle powers.
With the FAQ of the Alpha Legion: Is it worth to take the AL-Warband? It is only one unit of Cultists instead of two. 3+ of course is better than 4+. But I see the CSM troops or Bikes as a tax I do not want to use. In A CAD I could use some of them as Chosen. They are ObSec, the cultists are not... *sigh* ^^''
You have no other Options other than the Warband if you want the AL Decurion with 3+ returning Cultists.
If you don't take the Decurion and only the Lost and Damned Formation your Cultists only come back on 4+ as always.
So is the Warband worth it? I can't say it depends what you want to do with your army. If you want to play msu and drown you oponnent in cheap replenishing cultists, than i would say yes. Take the Warband (everything min and only few upgrades) and the Lost and Damned as Aux.
Covenant wrote: With the FAQ of the Alpha Legion: Is it worth to take the AL-Warband? It is only one unit of Cultists instead of two. 3+ of course is better than 4+. But I see the CSM troops or Bikes as a tax I do not want to use. In A CAD I could use some of them as Chosen. They are ObSec, the cultists are not... *sigh* ^^''
2 min units of CSM is only 50 more points than your old min cultist tax used to be in a CAD. Just suck it up and take the warband.
The problem I've run into with making a WE Chaos Warband is that you have to take Termis and Bikes and a Helbrute/Havocs when all you really would want are those Bikes. The other units are going to be too slow or not mesh well with the army. Havocs can be great, but most of the time they aren't going to do much since they get no boosts to their shooting like IW. You want your entire army in the enemy deployment zone or midfield, and some cheap Rhinos in the back. When you try and split your forces too much with ranged in the back you end up with too little back there that gets blown off the board from deep strikers or FMC. The MoG kind of "fixes" this in a blunt kind of way. Your army isn't very tough, but it's mean in combat and your opponent will be stuck making the choice of which units they want to be killed by.
The thing with havocs is they don't have to be back field long ranged squads. Chaos havocs can take any weapon they want, so you can throw 4 meltaguns on them and chuck em in a rhino to charge up with the rest of your list, or 4 flamers or whatever else.
Terminators can just be run as your standard combimelta 3-man termicide to deepstrike in and pop enemy parking lots.
The above is all true! I actually ran two units of Havocs with Meltaguns running up the field behind my other assault units against some Necrons. The problem they had was the same problem they have when I take them with any other weapon: they can't shoot things in combat, and eeeeeverything in range is in combat almost instantly. You'd get more mileage out of Plasma, but at that point you should be taking Missile Launchers, and at THAT point you're sinking too many points into a ranged unit that's going to get singled out by your opponent asap. That also lines right up with my original issue with the Warband, I.E. you need to sink too many points into units to make them optimal.
Terminators are in the same boat as Havocs. Sure three man termicide is what everyone defaults to, but why even bother? I personally hate rolling for reserves and rolling for deep strike. So much can go wrong in a short amount of time. I'm not much of a gambling man. I'd rather put it all on black and rush all my units forward at high speeds. Sure, Termis + Talisman lord can do work, but if you mess up your 2D6 free move and the enemy deploys far away (as they should) then you won't be doing much but getting shot.
At least with the MoG you've got an overall cheaper formation in your Butcherhorde with OK units that will be hard pressed to fail their charges and will tear it up in melee.
How do Iron Warriors fair after Traitor Legions? Death Guard seems to be the new hotness because hey T6 bikes (even though Death Guard were known to be footslogging mainly). how about the 4th legion?
Even with Night Lords i often opt to deply on the board, but with the new Talon, I take those chances again.
Black Legion makes life really nice as well.
As for the Havocs, my basic philosophy is that threat saturation is always and forever a good thing. If you are going to use Havocs with short range killer diller weaponry, do it in spades and don't be shy. cheaper than Chosen, and with enough of it, say three units worth, you have a credible threat to the fore that is 30" up the board after round one and a whole lot of bad news behind them.
Cbaos does saturation so well, with Obliterators, Mutilators, rhino rushing, terminators and so on. while any one of them may not top the list of "greatest thing ever", it is the actual ability to split up the enemies fire with very credible (and if using Nurgle very tough) threats that makes them shine. Even Mutilators which no one takes (I do) are absolutely legit threats and if allowed to do their thing cause more problems than any enemy wants to deal with even if its just the loss of their units use for a round. Stealing a round of shooting from this and that unit while causing damage over the course of two phases is a thing.
So I could see Havocs being a part of an absolute Blitxkrieg approach. If you can stop the enemies from roaming anywhere near objectives with the sheer bulk and geometry of your forces, you have something going. Havocs seem like they could play a part.
Dominions in my Adepta Sororitas force obviously do it better, as do White Scars for all the obvious reasons. Still, its a thought.
Honestly, 3-4 man squads of Terminators and the minimum Raptors have such a small footprint that it would be silly not to take my chances deep striking now.
The problem I've run into with making a WE Chaos Warband is that you have to take Termis and Bikes and a Helbrute/Havocs when all you really would want are those Bikes. The other units are going to be too slow or not mesh well with the army. Havocs can be great, but most of the time they aren't going to do much since they get no boosts to their shooting like IW. You want your entire army in the enemy deployment zone or midfield, and some cheap Rhinos in the back. When you try and split your forces too much with ranged in the back you end up with too little back there that gets blown off the board from deep strikers or FMC. The MoG kind of "fixes" this in a blunt kind of way. Your army isn't very tough, but it's mean in combat and your opponent will be stuck making the choice of which units they want to be killed by.
I ended up buying loads of termies but chosen might work. Whack meltaguns on them they still get 5 s5 attacks each on the charge! If they survive getting out the rhino then the next turn they could be a nice few extra attacks for an ongoing combat. Always have the dreadclaw drop pod option for them too if you wanna splash out and FW is ok
If drop pods weren't so incredibly expensive and had some kind of mishap mitigation I would be all over them. I might play around with the idea of them just to see what I could come up with.
They're ok as long as they're ObSec and as long as you have a unit inside that wants to charge. That virtually eliminates the chance to mishap since we get to stay inside and flatout 18 inch to wherever you wanted to charge after finding a safeish spot to DS. Though I have to say I'm still tempted to use the flamer nova attack every time. It's been rather nice to me when it works.
Anyone managed to use blight grenades added with the plague colony rule to reduce a unit to WS0 and therefore stop them attacking alltogther?
Could you explain how that works? Where is the plague colony rule found?
Plague colony is a formation of 3-7 units of plague marine units and a lord, its basic rule is units within 7" are -1WS in subfight phase
Blight grenades are defensive grenades (plague marines come with them). Defensive grenades can be thrown, s1 blast, blind
If you are hit by a blind weapon you have to pass and initiative check if you fail your WS and BS are reduced to 1
The plague colony reduces your WS by 1 in the sub fight phase.
If your WS is 1 this is therefore reduced to 0
If your WS is 0 you are hit automatically and cannot attack back. In this case you are so covered in flies and poop ye basically unable to fight back
Speaking of Death Guard, I am going to start a Vectorium soon. Some advice on loadouts would be *really* helpful for me, as I have never played CSM before.
I am thinking of running:
Chaos Warband:
Sorceror
Lord on Bike
2 10-man CSM squads w/rhinos
Terminators (ordered the Grave Wardens as the models are gorgeous!)
Havocs w/autocannons
Bikes (2x3 or 1x6?)
Oblits
Auxiliary:
Helldrake terror pack (2 heldrakes)
Allied: Renegade Knight
What I'm unsure of is what weapon options/upgrades I should go for. How should I best equip my Lord etc.
Should I run MSU tacs and flood the board with bodies, or run 10-man units, or minimise?
Aiming at 1500 - 1850pts eventually. To start with I'll run the minimum, as my friend builds up his Space Marine army.
@zerosignal: What about putting the Sorcerer on a Bike? Most Nurgle spells benefit greatly from being able to close the distance, and the Primaris loves having a bigger footprint. Making a Force Axe to be Poisoned 4+ makes MCs cry. I'd take the Bikes in a single unit so as to get them all T7 when Leper Curse comes up.
What is the source of chaos artillery shooting into combats? I have Imperial Armour 13, but I'm not seeing it in there so I'm wondering if another book has more chaos renegade rules or if I'm just missing it.
I've been getting lots of games in with all the traitor legion rules and the next one I really want to dive into is Alpha Legion and I'm thinking cultists that come back would combo well with shooting into their melees. Would like to find the exact wordings of everything to make sure there aren't restrictions on anything there.
Question, do you need to take the appropriate Legion detachment (e.g. iron Warriors Grand Company) in order to get the bonuses, free VOTLW and access to the legion artifacts? I thought this was not the case and you could do it in a CAD or whatever, but Army Builder won't let you do it without the specific detachment. did I misread something or is Army Builder just incorrect?
"Any Detachment with the CSM Faction can be from one of the nine Traitor Legions... all units in a (Legion) Detachment or Formation gain the following special rules"
lindsay40k wrote: "Any Detachment with the CSM Faction can be from one of the nine Traitor Legions... all units in a (Legion) Detachment or Formation gain the following special rules"
pepsuber wrote: It would be nice if we didn't need Magnus to get that far.....
As for WE, yea my idea was a cheap butcherhorde. If you take the minimum in berzerkers, no rhino or chainaxes at 5 men only, that pretty cheap. If i need bodies i was thinking khornate lost and damned. Something about a bunch of frothing maniac cultists that screams khorne to me. However, I'd rather not take the lost and damned by itself. That leaves auxilleries. Raptor talon loses out on rage if you Deep Strike then charge, plus your pretty likely to charge the enemy with your foot units before they can even come down. Thing is the khrone lord do i put him in a unit of berzerk and hope for the best? I feel spawn are wasted since they aren't nurgle spawn and already have rage.
WE Raptor Talon is amazing. Take two MSU Raptors with two Melta and Combi Melta. Bam, Land Raiders are dying and Knights are scared. If they don't blow, charge in and drop a Melta Bomb. You're not scattering if one of your Jugger Lords got his Dimensional Key wet on turn one (his mate carries a Talisman of Burning Blood; they can form a unit together in a Land Raider if you're setting up first, and if you're setting up second they can do that or join a Spawn unit). Your Warp Talons, whilst pricey and needing some numbers to absorb Overwatch, are forcing several Blind tests then re-rolling their 3D6 charge to ensure that their Lord rams his Murder Sword down the appropriate throat, and may as well multi-charge that heavy weapon unit because they're Disordered anyway and still get Impact Attacks because they didn't use their Jump Packs to move.
I feel like a Juggerlord with a Dimensional Key, even in World Eaters, is still a pipedream. Unless you're playing against someone who isn't familiar with your 2D6 free move (or you roll amazingly well), your opponent isnt just going to let you turn one assault them anymore. I'd much rather run my Raptors up the table than risk never getting them into the game or a mishap. I'd also never replace my AoBF and Gorefather Juggerlords with other relics. Those things do so much work it isn't even funny.
Anyone managed to use blight grenades added with the plague colony rule to reduce a unit to WS0 and therefore stop them attacking alltogther?
Could you explain how that works? Where is the plague colony rule found?
Plague colony is a formation of 3-7 units of plague marine units and a lord, its basic rule is units within 7" are -1WS in subfight phase
Blight grenades are defensive grenades (plague marines come with them). Defensive grenades can be thrown, s1 blast, blind
If you are hit by a blind weapon you have to pass and initiative check if you fail your WS and BS are reduced to 1
The plague colony reduces your WS by 1 in the sub fight phase.
If your WS is 1 this is therefore reduced to 0
If your WS is 0 you are hit automatically and cannot attack back. In this case you are so covered in flies and poop ye basically unable to fight back
Doesn't work. Main rule book provides guidance on order of operation on attribute modifiers. Set values (like Blind) are used last unless a rule specifically says otherwise (like say marker lights).
I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
Doesn't work. Main rule book provides guidance on order of operation on attribute modifiers. Set values (like Blind) are used last unless a rule specifically says otherwise (like say marker lights).
can you point me to where in the rule book it details that?
Badablack wrote: I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
BL can do full deepstrike too, it just becomes very expensive very fast due to dreadclaws, but the murder talon can re-roll too, assuming you allow using the jump pack for charging after deepstriking, which works RAW but some people prefer not to allow it anyway.
No argument on the drakes though. Something with meteoric descend as a special rule should really be able to deepstrike -_-.
Badablack wrote: I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
I'm working on a Heldrake to go with my Hell Blade, come turn two I've usually got air supremacy and reserves arrive on 2+. Even if there's no skimmers and Hell Blade is hitting ground targets on 6s, it's worth it.
That's right. Hell Blades are interesting because in FW's DFTS PDF, they become a dedicated Skyfire unit, so if your non-air unit using opponent vetoes DFTS to deny you the reserves bonus, your air supremacy flyer becomes a lethal strafer. If they want to use DFTS with their Fire Raptor, you're going to fly right up its backside. Win-win
I'll just try to find the rules online to test the alpha legion with the ordnance tyrant and if it works well buy the book later. It seems like it would be a good combo with their rules of coming back. Infiltrate in the enemy's face, assault, shoot into combat, repeat when they respawn. I'm thinking units bigger than the min 10 size will be more important though so that they can last through a combat or two before getting wiped.
Was just reading the BRB and noticed something that might be nice for TS players.
May well be known and practised already but force is a blessing! So if you have any sorcerer with your TS or marked marines it reads to me that you just need to get that power off and boom +1 inv.
Latro_ wrote: Was just reading the BRB and noticed something that might be nice for TS players.
May well be known and practised already but force is a blessing! So if you have any sorcerer with your TS or marked marines it reads to me that you just need to get that power off and boom +1 inv.
Yep, was discussed in the dedicated TS thread though some people didn't agree with the mechanics about it. Will come as a surprise to many players who don't dabble in psychic shenanigans but most thousand sons players are used to the less enlightened having no idea how the psychic phase works ;p
lindsay40k wrote: That's right. Hell Blades are interesting because in FW's DFTS PDF, they become a dedicated Skyfire unit, so if your non-air unit using opponent vetoes DFTS to deny you the reserves bonus, your air supremacy flyer becomes a lethal strafer. If they want to use DFTS with their Fire Raptor, you're going to fly right up its backside. Win-win
That's a really good point so without DFTS rules Hell Blade can still hit non-skimming ground targets at BS3?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zerosignal wrote: Any advice on loadouts for Death Guard tac squads w/rhino?
@Intercessor: Yep, sans DFTS all Flyers can choose whether to Skyfire or not, with it only Fighters can do so and Interceptors can't switch it off. I've yet to actually get into a dogfight with my HB but on paper it looks lethal, so far it's won me two games by being able to fly into position to kill an officer or weapon specialist who thought he'd got a skirmish screen
Edit: in fact I suspect the presence of an Interceptor may even influence a local meta, taking a 200pt gunship is a big risk when 100pts of Autocannon are out there waiting to bring you down before the first movement phase!
I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
Well, I have twenty legion veteran MkIII models on order, so I might run one ten-man, one 5-man, and use the other 5 bodies for Havocs. Looking forward to the green stuff conversions!
lindsay40k wrote: I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
But estandar marines don't have defensive grenades, only plagle marines.
lindsay40k wrote: I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
But estandar marines don't have defensive grenades, only plagle marines.
Exactly.
I also don't get the single Autocannon in the squad. Autocannons require large numbers ala Havoks. Regular Marines and Chosen need to stick with spamming special weapons.
I would like to know how do you play Noise Marines nowadays ?
Large 20 men squad with icon, double blastmaster and sonic blaster or MSU 5 men squad with blastmaster and sonic blaster ? Foot or rhino ?
Same question for Terminator. Is termicide 3 man squad with combimelta/combiplasma always a thing (especially with this new formation) ?
Or a large 10 men squad wih combi plasma ?
Hmm. Cultists. It'll take a couple of turns of light firepower to scare them off. Bare minimum Lost and Damned comes in at 300pts. More, if you want the DA's unit to be a big Fearless tarpit. Same points as LaD gets you a couple of Helcults - both of them Fearless... which does mean no Go To Ground.
None of the above give access to ObSec, and nor do Havocs. If you're going CAD, Obliterators bring that and better flexibility. Tricky choices, indeed.
For terminator annihilation force loadouts combiplasma seems like a better choice. You can fire it at your designated target from farther away as bad scatter protection, and plasma is generally a better weapon for chunking monsters and high wound targets that you'd be meleeing with your hatred rerolls anyway.
As far as numbers you have to take 3 squads and they have to deepstrike for their double shots to happen, so min sized squads are your best bet to not mishap.
- three Termicide squads that pay less tax than if you took another CAD to get three Elite slots (this is OK but our Elites aren't exactly over-subscribed; many are overpriced for what they do, and Helbrutes are better in Formations)
- related to the above, potentially more than three Termicide squads (interesting)
- Obliged to add a Chaos Lord to the Termicide attack (this is a tricky thing to countenance; do we make the Lord an expensive fourth gun, or do we kit him up to cause havoc the turn after he arrives? MoN seems ok for making his squad a Distraction Carnifex)
- Get to fire Bolters on the same turn as firing their Combined shots (this is marginal at best)
- Can force a unit to GTG in the Movement Phase, enabling a Heldrake to then inflict D6 AP2 hits as it flies overhead (a rare fringe case, but hilarious when your opponent thought their Terminators were going to tank you - definitely employ psychology to try to bait your opponent into doing this when opportunity presents itself; "That's six wounds on your 4+ cover, do you want to Go To Ground?")
- Get to shoot at Interceptor weapons BEFORE THEY SHOOT AT OUR ARRIVING RESERVES (this is very significant)
If you're playing with a lot of Fliers or Daemons, the last point could be game-changing. Most people who take a Fortification go with an Aegis line, right? If you can land within 12" with a clear shot, three Plasma Guns kill a Gun Emplacement. It's probably going to be behind the wall, though, so it'll take two squads' fire, three if your previous turn's shooting didn't clear away enough bubble wrap or you have average scatter rolls.
But: there's units with Interceptor other than the common T7 W2 Icarus. Let's consider what else a Fire Raptor or Heldrake Terror Pack might want to be killed before it gets a free shot. I suspect there may be an argument for an air-heavy force to take two Plasma squads and two Melta squads (which in turn suggests a mobile character with Dimensional Key to try to get a precise DS).
- three Termicide squads that pay less tax than if you took another CAD to get three Elite slots (this is OK but our Elites aren't exactly over-subscribed; many are overpriced for what they do, and Helbrutes are better in Formations)
- related to the above, potentially more than three Termicide squads (interesting)
- Obliged to add a Chaos Lord to the Termicide attack (this is a tricky thing to countenance; do we make the Lord an expensive fourth gun, or do we kit him up to cause havoc the turn after he arrives? MoN seems ok for making his squad a Distraction Carnifex)
- Get to fire Bolters on the same turn as firing their Combined shots (this is marginal at best)
- Can force a unit to GTG in the Movement Phase, enabling a Heldrake to then inflict D6 AP2 hits as it flies overhead (a rare fringe case, but hilarious when your opponent thought their Terminators were going to tank you - definitely employ psychology to try to bait your opponent into doing this when opportunity presents itself; "That's six wounds on your 4+ cover, do you want to Go To Ground?")
- Get to shoot at Interceptor weapons BEFORE THEY SHOOT AT OUR ARRIVING RESERVES (this is very significant)
If you're playing with a lot of Fliers or Daemons, the last point could be game-changing. Most people who take a Fortification go with an Aegis line, right? If you can land within 12" with a clear shot, three Plasma Guns kill a Gun Emplacement. It's probably going to be behind the wall, though, so it'll take two squads' fire, three if your previous turn's shooting didn't clear away enough bubble wrap or you have average scatter rolls.
But: there's units with Interceptor other than the common T7 W2 Icarus. Let's consider what else a Fire Raptor or Heldrake Terror Pack might want to be killed before it gets a free shot. I suspect there may be an argument for an air-heavy force to take two Plasma squads and two Melta squads (which in turn suggests a mobile character with Dimensional Key to try to get a precise DS).
You can take a Sorceror instead of a Lord. Also firing the Burning Brand twice is awesome.
Hmm. Firing that thing twice isn't bad. But... a mobile character who started the game on the board may well get the chance to fire it in the previous turn, whereas our TAF friend is coming on turn 2 at the earliest (and turn three when luck and dirty tricks go against you).
Also, if the target is not a Gun Emplacement closely surrounded by secondary targets, it's going to have limited synergy with the squad's equipment. Interesting if you're landing next to a Fortification; Melta it, and also hit the inhabitants. One hell of a Distraction Carnifex, taking a fair bit of punishment to get rid of and also projecting a significant threat radius.
A daemonologist could be interesting. Increase target saturation in a sector your opponent thought secure until Termicide arrived, and, again, a significant threat. If you get lucky on powers, turn into a GUO in the middle of the enemy army.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Firing that thing twice isn't bad. But... a mobile character who started the game on the board may well get the chance to fire it in the previous turn, whereas our TAF friend is coming on turn 2 at the earliest (and turn three when luck and dirty tricks go against you).
Also, if the target is not a Gun Emplacement closely surrounded by secondary targets, it's going to have limited synergy with the squad's equipment. Interesting if you're landing next to a Fortification; Melta it, and also hit the inhabitants. One hell of a Distraction Carnifex, taking a fair bit of punishment to get rid of and also projecting a significant threat radius.
A daemonologist could be interesting. Increase target saturation in a sector your opponent thought secure until Termicide arrived, and, again, a significant threat. If you get lucky on powers, turn into a GUO in the middle of the enemy army.
While the first part is true, he isn't likely to die the turn he comes in compared to T1. Plus Combi-Plasma + Running or shooting Bolters (yawn) ain't too bad. I'd say the formation is only worth it if you love Termicide as much as I do.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Question in regards to word bearers
Do you guys prefer the black crusade detachment in traitor legions?
You mean the Grand Host? Well... I'm already conflicted on the 'big modular formation', as a Land Raider that can carry Possessed into battle comes with a hefty tax. (I know they're overcosted, but if they can be protected from Bolter fire then they can deliver a formidable Fearless charge, and in a CAD they're ObSec.) And they don't let you take certain handy FW stuff - Hell Blades are amazing but don't have Wing rules yet.
Grand Host versus Black Crusade... CCSM Warlord Traits are pants IMO, Master of Deception is great but you'll roll it in fewer than a third of games. Half the Word Bearers ones are great, and the Chaos Boon manipulation is situationally ok; I'll take an effective 4+ save against Spawndom over causing Fear. Crusader or Hatred: Imperium. Eh, you already Hate Space Marines, you have cheap access to Hatred: Imperium, and you already trample on IG. BC is marginally better if you'll need to punch a lot of Ogryns to death, but even then near guaranteeing you'll kill a unit when it runs away (or remain Locked with Loyalist Astartes who chicken out and try to tag in their Devastator mates) is probably better overall.
The Warband component... well, it's like a CAD that almost entirely removes the risk of Spawndom, and extends ObSec to everyone, but as I say can't take an independent Land Raider or FW Flyers. Until FW let me take a Wing of Hell Blades, that's a pretty big deal for me. But, you can still take DT Dreadclaws. ObSec Drop Pods that can drop ObSec Chosen and then keep flying around. And ObSec Terminators that can bring an ObSec LR. Your move, Guilliman. Note: RAW, units in a Warband cannot use their double Chaos Boon rolls on the free rolls from the GH/BC (it specifies that they get the extra roll if the roll was generated by Champion of Chaos).
The LatD component... I like it. The DA gains a Zealot bubble (what was that about Grand Host losing Hatred: Imperium?), and I'm starting to respect a couple of Fearless tarpits. Demagogues are a safe choice to throw a risky free Boon - if they become a Spawn, they get better, and if they get Apotheosis then try not to laugh like Skeletor. With Crusader, they can get into position to goad the enemy into using close range Rapid Fire on cannon fodder, or even jump out and charge them (and the DA can project Zealot farther). As long as one of them survives the charge, then a unit of Possessed or Warp Talons or Daemons can get stuck in without facing OW or suffering for want of Frag Grenades. I'm seriously looking into taking this, and a CAD with a Tac Rhino & LR full of Possessed for my ObSec & Hell Blade tax.
While the first part is true, he isn't likely to die the turn he comes in compared to T1. Plus Combi-Plasma + Running or shooting Bolters (yawn) ain't too bad. I'd say the formation is only worth it if you love Termicide as much as I do.
Hmm, I hadn't considered that they get to shoot Plasma and Run. Give them a single CF and that can really pile on the pressure as a Distraction Carnifex that will punch out your Ordnance if you don't shoot it to death. And they'll not get Plasma Cannoned so easily, either (can't roll a 1 for Run dispersal when you have Crusader!). Even run around a corner and scarecrow with their charge radius
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have I mentioned I like Hell Blades, yet?
Anyone get any good synergy out of Hell Talons with the new Traitors Legion supplement? They're not too costly and have some nice options... its a HUUUUGE model though.
I've got the one and it's been alright but my buddy is running 2 Heldrakes and I don't think the Hell blade is going to be worth taking. They are a little squishy with on av10 all round.
I'm just running the one, mostly playing quick 1K games, but two in 2K+ looks ok. Against two Heldrakes, a single Hell Blade has still got a good chance of taking one out or crippling it in the three dogfights before any of them arrives, don't forget it gets two rolls for Engage and Manoeuvre when attacking. A pair of them should be a pretty effective air supremacy force. Hopefully it'll get Wing rules...
Regarding Word Bearers and the Black Crusade versus the Grand Host, I say Grand Host without any reservation.
The core CSM warlord traits have a single really good trait (Master of Deception), and only one of the remaining traits will be normally usable depending on the foe you face. Hatred is handy of course, but useless versus Marines/Imperials as you already have Veterans of the Long War. Inversely, Black Crusader can be really useful against Marines as it effectively acts as a better Kurov's Aquila for free, but it's useless against anything else. Exalted Champion is normally relatively useless, but it gains some traction in a Black Crusade, since Path to Glory explicitly states that it stacks with Favored Scions for free boons.
On the other hand, the Word Bearers have far less duds in their Warlord Traits, and they get several rather cool abilities with them. Voice of Lorgar allows for shenanigans (Spawn with Furious Charge are surprisingly useful as disposable tank hunters), Nexus of the Gods is really cool but I find it requires really good positioning to take advantage of, but Latent Psyker is my personal favorite. Zealot is handy too; really the only duds are the Fearless+Adamantium Will trait (and even Ad Will can be useful as anti-shriek insurance) and the pregame boon (too random IMO).
The thing that really does it for me is getting Crusader across the entire detachment. Personally my view is that all Word Bearers models with VoTLW should have gotten it as a Legion tactic anyway, but that's nitpicking; extra speed wins objectives, gets you in position faster (Crusader Spawn are almost guaranteed to get a 6" run), and compensate for giving your Sorcerer(s) a Palanquin instead of a Bike.
The real kicker is that Crusader applies to an entire unit, even if only one model in a unit has the rule. My list runs a Warband and a standalone Hellcult, with my Lord joining one Cultist unit and the Sorcerer joining another one, so that both Cultist units gain Crusader and Obsec. The Lord is a Scrolls of Magnus caster, and the Sorcerer is my Warlord/summoner. Both units move-cast-run, and keep pressure on the foe (alongside other fast units, termicide, etc)
I've got a local tournament coming up that may require only CAD + Ally detachments with no super heavies. Anyone have any ideas for good World Eater lists that are fluffy and competitive? I never realized how much I would miss the 2D6 move and free rerolls to charges until they were gone.
I'm workshopin' WECAD + KDK Ally. KDK brings a DP with Blood Armour, Bloodleters to deep strike, and 10 - 20 Flesh Hounds for the scout / anti-charge / tarpit hell. That leaves my WECAD. Thinking two Juggerlords, some CSM with Rhinos, and Bikes or Spawn. Althooooooough I do have a Kharybdis that could be pretty damn fun to use. Fill it with Kharn, Termie Lord, and some Termies and go to town. That would end up BEING my army pretty much, but it would be pretty brutal for a Turn Two multi-charge. Kharybdis basically guarantees you will get where you need to get to, as long as you aren't blown out of the sky beforehand.
Kharybdis seems to only be at a big risk if they have first turn and a Fighter with punch, even then your odds aren't terrible. Once you're on the board and dropped off the death star, it's done its job. If you want to keep it safe, check with your TO if Interceptor and Air Leviathan cancel each other out - if so, a Hell Blade will either catch a load of flack for it or add to the multiple air units causing trouble and adding to target saturation.
Well, Terminators can nuke something on arrival. Pretty good chance of getting in Melta range, too, with none of the risks of Termicide. Just got to look out for Plasma squads.
I'll be putting Berzerkers in mine, but that's just for the Fist Of Khorne formation.
Drop, leave them inside all safe and snug then on the next turn charge in.
Attach a Lord/Apostle/Warpsmith or some combination of the above and go even wilder (Warpsmith for being able to guarentee who gets nom'd, Apostle for a nice Hatred buff and you already know what the Lord is for )
lindsay40k wrote: I'm just running the one, mostly playing quick 1K games, but two in 2K+ looks ok. Against two Heldrakes, a single Hell Blade has still got a good chance of taking one out or crippling it in the three dogfights before any of them arrives, don't forget it gets two rolls for Engage and Manoeuvre when attacking. A pair of them should be a pretty effective air supremacy force. Hopefully it'll get Wing rules...
Oh, is that from a supplement? We don't play those rules unfortunately.
Chaos drop pods are good because they can move after dropping in, so they're best for things that don't normally get to drop in and say hello. CSM and Chosen can take them dedicated, drop them behind cover and them drive them out and pop out to fire away.
But if you're playing IW why not just castle up with some fortifications and fire all cannons?
I honestly kind of like the idea of using a Grand Company to do a "max Warband" or so, and actually do a Fist of the Gods formation. I wouldn't even bother with squadrons, and would just run 3 Vindicators, 2 on opposite flanks of the battlefield, the third one given the War in the Eye Legacy of Ruin so it can Outflank.
Get some Heretech support for either POTMS or Flesh metal armor if you want but the shtick works because you're not sinking too many points into it.
Been playing around with Kill Team since there's a local campaign coming up and it starts with it. 200 point standard GWKT. World Eaters don't seem to be workin' all that well since melee is kill, and my wall of cultists can't seem to hit anything (more bad dice rolling last game then anything). Starting to wonder if I shouldn't just make an Alpha Legion infiltrating team of badasses.
1) What's the most effective thing to stick in a Kharybdis? Terminators, Chosen or Mutilators?
2) What about in a Spartan?
3) What if you had two Dreadclaws and wanted to run both?
4) Is it worth getting a land raider if I have the above as transport options, is one superior to any of the above?
Thanks
The real question is whether or not you have IA:13. It's out of print, and has the 40k rules for the vehicles you mention.
The most effective thing to put in a Kharybdis is Chosen. It's nice being able to shoot plasma / melta more than once, plus you can take an autocannon. Like one of the other posters said, drop them in behind cover and use the Kharybis to attack once they have deployed.
The most effective thing to put in a Spartan is a large assault squad. The most effective tactic I have used one for is dropping a 20 man squad of Khorne Berzerkers with chainaxes in front of a Knight. It's overkill, but they will kill it and survive to carry out another assault.
If I had 2 dreadclaws, I would use one to carry a shooting unit and one to carry an assault unit, to give my deep strike balance.
It's rarely worth getting a Land Raider, especially if you have a Spartan to use instead.
techsoldaten wrote: The most effective thing to put in a Spartan is a large assault squad. The most effective tactic I have used one for is dropping a 20 man squad of Khorne Berzerkers with chainaxes in front of a Knight. It's overkill, but they will kill it and survive to carry out another assault.
Care to explain how Khorne Berzerkers with any upgrades besides maybe a Power Fist on the Champ would be able to handle a Knight? I don't see how Chainaxes help since ap4 doesn't do anything to vehicles. I mean, they will tie it up for a while, since they're Fearless and such; but that is one very expensive tarpit with only a marginal chance of actually bringing it down. I'd say save the pts. from the Chainaxes, drop at least one Berzerker, add a Chaos Lord with Gorefather or something like that; he can wreck a Knight. Alternatively, Kharn. You don't even really need a squad most times with him on a Knight, though it -does- help in case he doesn't drop it first turn.
I'd say with the Traitor Legion changes Berzerkers are even further down the list of things to bring to the table than they were to start with, barring a few outlying strategies. WECSM are going to perform similarly enough and for cheaper. Or even WE Termies with Chanfists in a Spartan. While prohibitively expensive, they can certainly handle a Knight. And as long as they have a decent size, can live to do other bad things.
The real question is whether or not you have IA:13. It's out of print, and has the 40k rules for the vehicles you mention.
The most effective thing to put in a Kharybdis is Chosen. It's nice being able to shoot plasma / melta more than once, plus you can take an autocannon. Like one of the other posters said, drop them in behind cover and use the Kharybis to attack once they have deployed.
The most effective thing to put in a Spartan is a large assault squad. The most effective tactic I have used one for is dropping a 20 man squad of Khorne Berzerkers with chainaxes in front of a Knight. It's overkill, but they will kill it and survive to carry out another assault.
If I had 2 dreadclaws, I would use one to carry a shooting unit and one to carry an assault unit, to give my deep strike balance.
It's rarely worth getting a Land Raider, especially if you have a Spartan to use instead.
Yes, I have IA:13. I was planning on building a squad of Chosen with Melta and one with Plasma so it's good to know they work well in a Kharybdis.
Unfortunately I can't take Berserkers as I can't run marked units due to Iron Warriors. Would a Terminator squad with Combi-Meltas and power/ chainfists be a reasonable substitution or are Termies always better using DS?
If I run both Dreadclaws would Chosen with Melta and Chosen with LC / CC weapons be the right sort of idea?
If I ran a Chaos Warband I'd probably just stick a Chaos Marine squad in each to fit them in as DT and save myself having to take a CAD.
I figured a LR might be redundant, so have held of buying one as I'd need a Forgeworld IIB to fit in with all my Deimos vehicles and £75 is a lot for a unit of questionable use.
1) What's the most effective thing to stick in a Kharybdis? Terminators, Chosen or Mutilators?
Thanks
I know these guys arent iron warriors but they can fit in pretty well in your list by saying they are mental marines. Try the fist of khorne formation from warhammer world (?). They are 20 khorne berzerkers that DS on turn 1 and can assualt 1st turn.
1) What's the most effective thing to stick in a Kharybdis? Terminators, Chosen or Mutilators?
Thanks
I know these guys arent iron warriors but they can fit in pretty well in your list by saying they are mental marines. Try the fist of khorne formation from warhammer world (?). They are 20 khorne berzerkers that DS on turn 1 and can assualt 1st turn.
I'm really on the fence with that formation because there are armies that make it pointless and other armies where it is invaluable. It also costs upwards of 650+ points, more if you kit out the champ with an Axe of Khorne + Icon of Wrath (don't leave home without one, trust me). To get their points back they'd need to multicharge half the opponent's army or focus one unit down and risk death in the shooting phase. Against death stars it's pretty useless unless you go before they do so they don't have a chance to put up invis. It's an amazingly FUN formation without much use.
Plus all the assorted guns + coms relay that come with them.
I'm thinking of sticking a squad of Havocs in a Firestorm with Battlecannons and a second Havoc squad on the roof, and then two sets of two Vengeance batteries with battlecannons spread out to the sides. Maybe an Ammo dump on the battlements and Ammo store in the Firestorm to give my Havocs re-rolls of 1.
Oh my gods, that must have been hilarious! I think there's a whole thread to be had on forts + geomancy rushdown. (Elsewhere there's discussion on exploiting suicidal Horrors to create extra WC battery units - this would have very strong synergy, as three of the Geomancy powers enable you to kill your own Horrors and cause them to Split)
Tangentially relevant - can Geomancy 6 move a whole Fortress of Redemption, or will it rip out a section?
lindsay40k wrote: Oh my gods, that must have been hilarious! I think there's a whole thread to be had on forts + geomancy rushdown. (Elsewhere there's discussion on exploiting suicidal Horrors to create extra WC battery units - this would have very strong synergy, as three of the Geomancy powers enable you to kill your own Horrors and cause them to Split)
Tangentially relevant - can Geomancy 6 move a whole Fortress of Redemption, or will it rip out a section?
It says a terrain piece, right? I would argue that although multiple buildings, the fortress should be treated as one piece (and I mean, let's be real, doesn't it all assemble as one piece anyhow? I know my buddy's one is a solid chunk. Couldn't separate it if I tried).
It is lots of fun but if playing on a field with lots of terrain its a pita as there are restrictions on placement. But running a double flamer squad or any spec weapons is good jump over and you have the equivalent to an open topped land raider and of course as its a purchesed model its scoring as well.. you could even run a heretek sorc and if lucky make it av15...
It gets even scarier. You could fill it with ObSecBliterators, who can step out and grab objectives.
Alternatively, you could cover it with Cults of Destruction, with a Warpsmith on each Battlement repairing it every turn, and adding his Plasma Pistol to the firestorm. Warband sits inside, jumping out to ObSec.
If a Chaos Lord is manning a fortification's weapon system, is he going to get Boons when he shoots down a Flyrant or nukes an entire Tactical Squad?
Well he killed it, so yes. I suppose it's not even a bad use for all the lords we have to take in our formations.
Actually, do you have to be embarked to use the guns? Otherwise you could us ea TAF lord to fire a fortification twice XD
Has anyone been using Malefic summoning with Word Bearers yet? Passing on a 3+ is a big deal but are you seeing perils (on any double) cancelling out that benefit?
I'm considering allying in a summoning WB sorc (w/tome) + cultists with my Thousand Son list. Seems like a cheap way to buff a list if the 3+ is as good in practice as it seems on paper.
It isn't too bad. Daemons still do summoning better but if you're willing to fork out the points for a Palanquin and therefore extra wounds and don't really care about the Sorcerer surviving it works excellently.
I found there was still a heavy element of Russian Roulette. Being able to stack it with a Familiar makes mortal Sorcerors fantastic at casting the WC1 powers - 88% chance on a single dice, and low risk when you can re-roll doubles if you cast with two dice to make damned sure - and easily able to Hulk out into a Bloodthirster when they've lost a Wound and forgotten Cursed Earth. Ideally you want a DP or Palanquin if you intend to use the riskier Conjurations, as you still need to throw at least four dice if you want it to succeed.
techsoldaten wrote: The most effective thing to put in a Spartan is a large assault squad. The most effective tactic I have used one for is dropping a 20 man squad of Khorne Berzerkers with chainaxes in front of a Knight. It's overkill, but they will kill it and survive to carry out another assault.
Care to explain how Khorne Berzerkers with any upgrades besides maybe a Power Fist on the Champ would be able to handle a Knight? I don't see how Chainaxes help since ap4 doesn't do anything to vehicles. I mean, they will tie it up for a while, since they're Fearless and such; but that is one very expensive tarpit with only a marginal chance of actually bringing it down. I'd say save the pts. from the Chainaxes, drop at least one Berzerker, add a Chaos Lord with Gorefather or something like that; he can wreck a Knight. Alternatively, Kharn. You don't even really need a squad most times with him on a Knight, though it -does- help in case he doesn't drop it first turn.
I'd say with the Traitor Legion changes Berzerkers are even further down the list of things to bring to the table than they were to start with, barring a few outlying strategies. WECSM are going to perform similarly enough and for cheaper. Or even WE Termies with Chanfists in a Spartan. While prohibitively expensive, they can certainly handle a Knight. And as long as they have a decent size, can live to do other bad things.
Yes, I failed to mention it's necessary to bring Kharn to fell a knight. You are very right for pointing that out.
The point of all the Berzerkers is not just to kill a knight tho. It's to kill anything they can charge. Perfectly fine to have Kharn move away from the Berzerkers while they go after another something on the board.
Re: the chainaxes - I know they are situational, but when you get 60 or so attacks on the charge and the IG / Ork / Eldar / whatever player cannot make a save, that's actually not bad. I know this means nothing to marines, but I don't play them all the time.
Re: Zerkers v CSMs: WS5 and fearless are more useful in large numbers.
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Loopstah wrote: Yes, I have IA:13. I was planning on building a squad of Chosen with Melta and one with Plasma so it's good to know they work well in a Kharybdis.
Good. Let me know how it works out.
Loopstah wrote: Unfortunately I can't take Berserkers as I can't run marked units due to Iron Warriors. Would a Terminator squad with Combi-Meltas and power/ chainfists be a reasonable substitution or are Termies always better using DS?
Drat. Have you considered running World Eaters as a second detachment?
For Spartans, the operative words in the title are 'assault tank.' The transport capacity allows them to carry large squads that can overwhelm / do disordered charges / dish out a lot of hits.
The question to ask yourself about Terminators: are they going to have the killing power of a bunch of less-heavily-armored models? Because the Spartan's ceramite armor ignores melta, in all likelihood you are going to get to deliver a payload.
Loopstah wrote: If I run both Dreadclaws would Chosen with Melta and Chosen with LC / CC weapons be the right sort of idea?
Yes. But LC Chosen are very expensive and their saves are only as good as that of a normal marine. This is one unit that really benefits from MoS and IoE - er, wait, Iron Warriors can't take that, can they?
Loopstah wrote: If I ran a Chaos Warband I'd probably just stick a Chaos Marine squad in each to fit them in as DT and save myself having to take a CAD.
CADs are not all bad. Think about what you can / cannot do with them. ObjSec has won me a lot of games.
Loopstah wrote: I figured a LR might be redundant, so have held of buying one as I'd need a Forgeworld IIB to fit in with all my Deimos vehicles and £75 is a lot for a unit of questionable use.
Yep. Spend wisely on these things. The Spartan has been a good tank for me since I got it a few years ago. The only times I don't bring it is when I am using my Fire Raptor.
techsoldaten, are we talking about the same World Eaters? Everything that has Veterans of the Long War has Fearless if they are a part of the World Eaters detachment, making the only thing Berzerkers do better than CSM just WS5, meaning you're paying, what, 6? points extra per model for +1 WS. CSM can take Flamers and Melta Guns with those saved points. Berzerkers are pretty much obsolete at the moment.
All units in a Chaos Warband have Objective Secured. The CSM, the Havocs/Helbrutes, the Chosen/Termies/Possessed, the Bikes/Raptors/Warp Talons, and the Lord/Kharn. The Chaos Warband can be amazing with the right unit composition.
I mean no disrespect by this but do you have the Traitor Legions book? You seem to be stuck in a pre-book strategy mindset.
Apologies for the repeat post, I just posted this in an army list thread, but I wanted to get some discussion going here as I need to make rapid choices about what to build for a casual mini-tournament in June (my 40th birthday bash - four days at WHW with five other mates).
I think the others are running: Daemons, GSC, Necrons, IoM/SM, War Con. All lists will be fairly competitive. We're all there to have fun, but it'd be nice to not get... crushed
I've just started a DG collection, and I think the Vectorium is definitely worth running.
Terminators aren't too terrible when they have FNP re-rolling 1's, you could take a single unit of 3 with combi-meltas to threaten a vehicle or MC.
Min sized squads of tacs are probably best, everything in the warband has obsec so you want to zoom around in rhinos and camp on objectives being survivable. I think plasma guns may shine here as they match range with bolters, you're unlikely to die to Gets Hot and you can double-tap and charge (relentless).
Havocs with autocannons seems like plenty of dakka.
Bikes. Bikesbikesbikes. Did I mention Bikes? Your chaos lord should be on one. Sorceror on bike maybe too (the nurgle powers are good close-in). T6, 3+, Jink (with +1 over 18"), FnP re-roll 1's... grief. Tank up front with your warlord and heal him with your Sorceror if you get that power.
So... which auxiliaries?
I am leaning towards Cult of Destruction (T5, 2 wound, 2+/6++/5+++ obliterators....). Perhaps a unit of 3, with two single models. Gives you decent firepower (shoot twice with the warpsmith's ability!). A very flexible and survivable unit.
If you skimp a bit on the Vectorium you can also fit in a Heldrake terror pack - I love the model, but I'm unsure two is worth the points. I might instead make a CAD, move the sorceror to it and take min cultists as troops to unlock the Heldrake.
Finally, Renegade Knight. More badass shooting, stomping, or access to D. Unsure which is better of the latter 3 options.
Anyway, I'm new to the forces of darkness so any advice on loadouts, builds, tactica etc. would be really appreciated.
techsoldaten wrote: Re: Zerkers v CSMs: WS5 and fearless are more useful in large numbers.
As Andysonic1 pointed out, this isn't really the case anymore. Pre-Traitor Legions, you might be able to argue it, but with World Eaters rules now, regular CSM are huge jump ahead of Bezerkers, sadly.
I will say that the Fist of Khorne still is very good for KDK and even brought with WE just simply for multi-charging on first turn and tieing up enemy units while the rest of your WE units dash for the enemy deployment zone. Heck, with a decent scatter, you might even be able to jump a WEIC like a juggerlord or something similar from a unit of WECSM that had to sprint into the unit of Bezerkers before they charge, which would help get him in on a first turn charge as well.
Before my last tournament I would have disagreed about the Fist of Khorne, but after someone moved all their thunderfire cannons to their back field so I couldn't get my WE units to him until turn three I see the use of a drop pod assault.
I really like the vectorium but i think its not that good. Plague marines are outshined by csm with MoN. All plague marines have is the plague knives. I think the chaos warband is the best since you get so much obsec. I think you should go for chaos spwan and MoN and make a mini deathstar. You could also advocate for a small auxillary and take a renegade knight. There are lots of options. The fact that you are running DG guarantees you have some kind of reliability in your force.
I'm liking the idea of a Juggerlord running up to a Fist of Khorne and joining a turn one charge. You're allowed to join units of other Legions during the course of the game as long as they're Battle Brothers, right?
Two Heldrakes are decent. Can take both weapon options, for harassing both troops and armour. Much better taken as an Attack Wing, though. TBH extra Havocs and a token Chaos Spawn might be a better use of points for Death Guard, really overwhelm them with infantry.
I used to run my juggerlords up to the fist of khorne berzerkers all the time. Just end your lords movement in cohesion and BAM you're in. I did this with KDK, mind you, because thats how you got your lords across the field asap. You don't rrreeeaalllyy need that anymore with World Eaters.
lindsay40k wrote: I'm liking the idea of a Juggerlord running up to a Fist of Khorne and joining a turn one charge. You're allowed to join units of other Legions during the course of the game as long as they're Battle Brothers, right?
Two Heldrakes are decent. Can take both weapon options, for harassing both troops and armour. Much better taken as an Attack Wing, though. TBH extra Havocs and a token Chaos Spawn might be a better use of points for Death Guard, really overwhelm them with infantry.
Four str 8 that can easily position itself to hit side armour with pen re-rolls isn't too shabby, can get some nasty crossfires and Attack Patterns can easily make up for mediocre BS
Four str 8 that can easily position itself to hit side armour with pen re-rolls isn't too shabby, can get some nasty crossfires and Attack Patterns can easily make up for mediocre BS
That's four shots at BS3 for 170 points.
I'll repeat the question: why would you take anything but the Baleflamer?
That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.
It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.
Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.
It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.
aka_mythos wrote: That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.
It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.
Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.
It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.
PEDM
Just because you've seen it doesn't mean that's the correct math and the correct logic. CSM doesn't need AT (and being crappy AT at that). It needs Ignores Cover.
You want crummy AT? Buy a Forgefiend. But don't pretend the Hades Heldrake is doing anything good.
I'll have to agree with Slayer, there's no reason to take the Hades over the Flamer. If you want to blow up tanks just go up and punch them or melta them. You'll end up doing that faster than waiting for a Drake to show up and miss its shots.
aka_mythos wrote: That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.
It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.
Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.
It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.
PEDM
Just because you've seen it doesn't mean that's the correct math and the correct logic. CSM doesn't need AT (and being crappy AT at that). It needs Ignores Cover.
You want crummy AT? Buy a Forgefiend. But don't pretend the Hades Heldrake is doing anything good.
The fact I've seen Heldrakes take out as many vehicles wasn't to say "this is why I believe they are worthwhile" but to say "this is why I started looking at it more closely." It is what prompted me to question my belief and not proof of my conclusion.
"Anti-vehicle" was only one reason, but it's the combination of those reasons that make it worth considering. You insist on wanting to hear any reason to take a Heldrake for hades over the baleflamer... but you're ignoring rationale. I'm not saying it's a great choice but it isn't "crummy" either.
I used to prescribe to the wisdom of taking Heldrakes only for the baleflamers. Now I believe a Heldrake with a Hades autocannon gives us versatility. It will not die as easily as a Forgefiend and it's easier to target lower armour value facings of highly armored vehicles. A hades on a Forgefiend isn't as likely to have the opportunity to shoot what a Heldrake will. With the limited mobility of our army being able to have something deliver anti-vehicle shooting by traversing the table to gain range and opportunity allows it to outshine slower and static units like a Forgefiend which would have to walk several turns or have a superior weapon to accomplish the same. The Heldrake can also function in an anti-air role. This ability to rapidly traverse the table allows it to threaten a variety of targets... Yes, the ability to ignore cover is important but as I said a lot of times the people taking a Hades armed Heldrake are already taking a baleflamer armed Heldrake... while redundancy has its virtues so does diversity... and some players meta emphasize a need for versatility.
Heldrake w/hades:
-high opportunity to target low armor facings
-high opportunity to target vehicles and flyers
-superior mobility over units like the Forgefiend
-superior survivability over units like the Forgefiend
-supplementing baleflamer Heldrake
If there is one thing on that list you don't need, then you are correct but some people do need that specific combination and that's justification enough for it.
The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.
2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?
3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.
4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.
5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.
Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.
Rapier weapons battery with Hades is 195pts for three. Yes, you can only take it in a CAD and you can't move it, but I think with that range you don't necessarily need to.
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
It is never going to take a gun off a Vindicator reliably. 2 S8 shots a turn at 170 points. Compare this to anything else please. You'll see it has no damage output for the cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also no flier is scared of the Hades. Nobody jinks against actual AA half the time, why would I jink against the Hadesdrake?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Rapier weapons battery with Hades is 195pts for three. Yes, you can only take it in a CAD and you can't move it, but I think with that range you don't necessarily need to.
Thank you for pointing out one of the alternatives. Yes it is 25 points more, but definitely more killy.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.
If they're using a crap expansion that arguably made all fliers worse (any area using it won't have fliers) that's on them.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.
Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.
Versatility, the ability to place shots where and when needed against lower value armor facings while also affording mobility and an anti-air component to your army.
A hades autocannon has 4 shots, against something like the vindicator you use in your example... A Forgefiend will land 4 shots, against the front only 1/3 of those shots glance or pen.... a Heldrake lands two shots, as you say, but those two shots are likely to be against the rear, penetrating 2/3 of the time... even against side armor the Heldrake is out performing the Forgefiend. Something like a vindicator can shield itself against less mobile ground units by presenting its front armor, but it's very difficult to shield its side and rear to a flyer. The Heldrake has advantages against fliers too.
2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?
For the reason I said above and the fact that it threatens fliers and can move quickly enough to contest objectives. If it goes ignored until the late game, it's going to make its points back. Even if it doesn't outright kill units it will be delivering deathblows and mop them up.
3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.
The Forgefiend is just a gun, if that's all you need, great. However particularly in the late game, if hasn't already been killed, it will often find itself ill position to be meaningfully positioned.
4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.
This is why I insisted you have to look at the Heldrake in the totality of its virtues, piece-mealing the points doesn't address how the advantages interact. As I pointed out above you haven't addressed them. You just think you have.
5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.
Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.
I disagree, I'm not pretending. They have been too relevant to late game play too many times, in a way other Chaos marines units can't be. Firepower isn't everything. Tabling your opponent isn't the only way to win.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.
Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.
Versatility, the ability to place shots where and when needed against lower value armor facings while also affording mobility and an anti-air component to your army.
A hades autocannon has 4 shots, against something like the vindicator you use in your example... A Forgefiend will land 4 shots, against the front only 1/3 of those shots glance or pen.... a Heldrake lands two shots, as you say, but those two shots are likely to be against the rear, penetrating 2/3 of the time... even against side armor the Heldrake is out performing the Forgefiend. Something like a vindicator can shield itself against less mobile ground units by presenting its front armor, but it's very difficult to shield its side and rear to a flyer. The Heldrake has advantages against fliers too.
2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?
For the reason I said above and the fact that it threatens fliers and can move quickly enough to contest objectives. If it goes ignored until the late game, it's going to make its points back. Even if it doesn't outright kill units it will be delivering deathblows and mop them up.
3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.
The Forgefiend is just a gun, if that's all you need, great. However particularly in the late game, if hasn't already been killed, it will often find itself ill position to be meaningfully positioned.
4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.
This is why I insisted you have to look at the Heldrake in the totality of its virtues, piece-mealing the points doesn't address how the advantages interact. As I pointed out above you haven't addressed them. You just think you have.
5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.
Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.
I disagree, I'm not pretending. They have been too relevant to late game play too many times, in a way other Chaos marines units can't be. Firepower isn't everything. Tabling your opponent isn't the only way to win.
You've got to be kidding me.
1. I already showed the math for Rhino armor on the front and sides. In the rear you inflict only 1.7 HP stripped on AV10 with your Hadesdrake. Against the front and sides armor the Forgefiend is still inflicting 2.7 HP stripped, and against a Chimera front it is 2 total HP gone. Against AV13 it is 1.3 HP, which is .4 HP less than the Hadesdrake getting all its advantages you list, which won't always happen like you're pretending. It isn't hard to cover a rear either or get a save, ergo the Forgefiend is showing how much more versatile it is just by having more shots to provide. It doesn't matter if you shoot at the rear if you don't have the shots to provide damage in the first place.
2. It isn't threatening fliers based off the math I provided above. Also the only thing better than contesting objectives is taking them, and the Baledrake can actually do that by killing things on objectives. Nobody is afraid of 2 S8 shots, but 4-5 S6 Ignoring Cover does that better. It won't make points back. It is 170 points at 2 shots average per turn. You have to roll excellently literally every time, so people ARE going to ignore it, whereas the Baledrake will actually do what you proclaim.
3. The guns are 36" I'm pretty sure. If something is out of range that means I'm probably winning at that point. Ask Tau players if they think that'd be an issue.
4. Those advantages only interact when the math and basic logic does. 170 point 2 S8 shots per turn isn't good just because you can hit rear armor because I already showed the math how much superior the Forgefiend is if you're looking for S8 shots. So it IS an advantage, you're correct. It isn't like it matters though based off the basic math I just showed you now AND earlier in the thread.
5. Your opponent can't hold objectives or out-maneuver you if units are dead or are afraid of a death zone. The Hadesdrake doesn't provide any of those fears unless the opponent is, to put it blunt, stupid. Just flat-out stupid. If you think a Hadesdrake has any value, you'll gak your pants when you finally used a Fire Raptor. I think that's what you are after. Try using that, seriously. It isn't hard to get one in a list either. AND they're only 30 points more.
lindsay40k wrote: I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.
I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.
Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.
I wasn't being dismissive, I was just realizing the situation where a Hades would actually be better than a Bale would be in Death From the Skies and not a game without it. The simple truth is that the Hades doesn't output enough hits on a unit that is already gambling when it is going to even show up to the field and then move halfway up, potentially coming in too early to hit side or rear armor on enemy armor or too late to be of any use to the game. Personally if I'm going to make a gamble like that than I'm going to take something that rips through MEQ like butter and not something I have to gamble on a second time just to hit something. Plus if you're worried about other fliers just Vector Strike them.
I'm writing from my own experience of what I've seen and played. You asked for an exception to the rule, and I'm saying there is one. I have never seen a CSM army so thoroughly table an opponent that range and maneuverability weren't important in a late game. I've never seen a Forgefiend last into the late game. I play in a meta that is dense with LOS blocking terrain. I play in a meta where I'm using my Heldrake to shoot at the rear of Leman Russes and Vindicators more than Rhinos, where Forgefiends fail to compete in any attempt to engage head-on or get tied up if they try to walk around for better vantages. A Forgefiend may have more shots per turn, but in my meta they would rarely last long enough to get more shots off over the course of the game to outnumber the shot of the Heldrake. Forgefiends draw deepstriking units that kill them. My hades Heldrake is a king of mop up, freeing up my other units to shoot at new targets rather than worrying about that last HP which the Heldrake can dispatch. You're weighing just lethality and I'm weighing its opportunities and the alternative opportunities to other units when they're freed up to target something else.
There are better ways to address Rhinos/chimera and flyers and yes it would be great to do more than just contest objectives, but the number of things I would need to cover all those same bases cost more and don't have the mobility.
You wanted some rationale to justify a hades Heldrake... and I'm saying the need for a specific type of Swiss Army knife unit in a particular meta. I get it, you disagree, but it works for me and the other CSM players in my gaming group. Maybe it's useful or maybe it's too specific, but it's why I've tried to be specific.
That's why you get a Fire Raptor. Hence why it is stupid. By the Autocannon battery and watch it do literally everything better. There IS no rationale.
And when my opponents are okay with me bringing them I do. I said it before hades Heldrake, not a great option, not even a good option, just an okay one that can fulfill specific needs.
aka_mythos wrote: And when my opponents are okay with me bringing them I do. I said it before hades Heldrake, not a great option, not even a good option, just an okay one that can fulfill specific needs.
That's not my problem. That's yours. FW is as legal as anything else and I'm telling you flat out why the Baledrake is doing things better. Who cares if it doesn't hit vehicles as well? Forgefiends and Havocs and Termicide are doing it so much better.
I do think the Hadesdrake is a bit overcosted - perhaps about 10-20pts? - relative to the Baledrake. It's three Daemonic attributes are ok-ish and make it's HP & S8 go a little farther but there's clearly more than 30pts between it and the Fire Raptor's firepower and rear armour. I don't think I'll be taking a single Hadesdrake very often, but a pair - especially in a Wing - with both variants can effectively crossfire targets with strong front armour in different ways to a Forgefiend's frontal attack.
This is an open thread on Legion tactica where OP did not set out to be focussed on competitiveness alone. If someone wants to use the awesome mecha-dragon in pairs over the pricey and difficult to build flying Land Raider then there's a place for discussing loadouts and strategy, just as there is for my overcosted but fun Possessed jumping out of a Land Raider and getting joined by a Juggerlord (at least 95% chance of charging a unit 24" away, if you were wondering)
lindsay40k wrote: I do think the Hadesdrake is a bit overcosted - perhaps about 10-20pts? - relative to the Baledrake. It's three Daemonic attributes are ok-ish and make it's HP & S8 go a little farther but there's clearly more than 30pts between it and the Fire Raptor's firepower and rear armour. I don't think I'll be taking a single Hadesdrake very often, but a pair - especially in a Wing - with both variants can effectively crossfire targets with strong front armour in different ways to a Forgefiend's frontal attack.
This is an open thread on Legion tactica where OP did not set out to be focussed on competitiveness alone. If someone wants to use the awesome mecha-dragon in pairs over the pricey and difficult to build flying Land Raider then there's a place for discussing loadouts and strategy, just as there is for my overcosted but fun Possessed jumping out of a Land Raider and getting joined by a Juggerlord (at least 95% chance of charging a unit 24" away, if you were wondering)
I would be only considering a Hadesdrake if it were 140 points and we get a 180 degree firing arc because it is on a frickin neck. I don't know why GW does the things it does.
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