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The above is all true! I actually ran two units of Havocs with Meltaguns running up the field behind my other assault units against some Necrons. The problem they had was the same problem they have when I take them with any other weapon: they can't shoot things in combat, and eeeeeverything in range is in combat almost instantly. You'd get more mileage out of Plasma, but at that point you should be taking Missile Launchers, and at THAT point you're sinking too many points into a ranged unit that's going to get singled out by your opponent asap. That also lines right up with my original issue with the Warband, I.E. you need to sink too many points into units to make them optimal.
Terminators are in the same boat as Havocs. Sure three man termicide is what everyone defaults to, but why even bother? I personally hate rolling for reserves and rolling for deep strike. So much can go wrong in a short amount of time. I'm not much of a gambling man. I'd rather put it all on black and rush all my units forward at high speeds. Sure, Termis + Talisman lord can do work, but if you mess up your 2D6 free move and the enemy deploys far away (as they should) then you won't be doing much but getting shot.
At least with the MoG you've got an overall cheaper formation in your Butcherhorde with OK units that will be hard pressed to fail their charges and will tear it up in melee.
How do Iron Warriors fair after Traitor Legions? Death Guard seems to be the new hotness because hey T6 bikes (even though Death Guard were known to be footslogging mainly). how about the 4th legion?
Even with Night Lords i often opt to deply on the board, but with the new Talon, I take those chances again.
Black Legion makes life really nice as well.
As for the Havocs, my basic philosophy is that threat saturation is always and forever a good thing. If you are going to use Havocs with short range killer diller weaponry, do it in spades and don't be shy. cheaper than Chosen, and with enough of it, say three units worth, you have a credible threat to the fore that is 30" up the board after round one and a whole lot of bad news behind them.
Cbaos does saturation so well, with Obliterators, Mutilators, rhino rushing, terminators and so on. while any one of them may not top the list of "greatest thing ever", it is the actual ability to split up the enemies fire with very credible (and if using Nurgle very tough) threats that makes them shine. Even Mutilators which no one takes (I do) are absolutely legit threats and if allowed to do their thing cause more problems than any enemy wants to deal with even if its just the loss of their units use for a round. Stealing a round of shooting from this and that unit while causing damage over the course of two phases is a thing.
So I could see Havocs being a part of an absolute Blitxkrieg approach. If you can stop the enemies from roaming anywhere near objectives with the sheer bulk and geometry of your forces, you have something going. Havocs seem like they could play a part.
Dominions in my Adepta Sororitas force obviously do it better, as do White Scars for all the obvious reasons. Still, its a thought.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 19:10:24
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Honestly, 3-4 man squads of Terminators and the minimum Raptors have such a small footprint that it would be silly not to take my chances deep striking now.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The problem I've run into with making a WE Chaos Warband is that you have to take Termis and Bikes and a Helbrute/Havocs when all you really would want are those Bikes. The other units are going to be too slow or not mesh well with the army. Havocs can be great, but most of the time they aren't going to do much since they get no boosts to their shooting like IW. You want your entire army in the enemy deployment zone or midfield, and some cheap Rhinos in the back. When you try and split your forces too much with ranged in the back you end up with too little back there that gets blown off the board from deep strikers or FMC. The MoG kind of "fixes" this in a blunt kind of way. Your army isn't very tough, but it's mean in combat and your opponent will be stuck making the choice of which units they want to be killed by.
I ended up buying loads of termies but chosen might work. Whack meltaguns on them they still get 5 s5 attacks each on the charge! If they survive getting out the rhino then the next turn they could be a nice few extra attacks for an ongoing combat. Always have the dreadclaw drop pod option for them too if you wanna splash out and FW is ok
If drop pods weren't so incredibly expensive and had some kind of mishap mitigation I would be all over them. I might play around with the idea of them just to see what I could come up with.
They're ok as long as they're ObSec and as long as you have a unit inside that wants to charge. That virtually eliminates the chance to mishap since we get to stay inside and flatout 18 inch to wherever you wanted to charge after finding a safeish spot to DS. Though I have to say I'm still tempted to use the flamer nova attack every time. It's been rather nice to me when it works.
Anyone managed to use blight grenades added with the plague colony rule to reduce a unit to WS0 and therefore stop them attacking alltogther?
Could you explain how that works? Where is the plague colony rule found?
Plague colony is a formation of 3-7 units of plague marine units and a lord, its basic rule is units within 7" are -1WS in subfight phase
Blight grenades are defensive grenades (plague marines come with them). Defensive grenades can be thrown, s1 blast, blind
If you are hit by a blind weapon you have to pass and initiative check if you fail your WS and BS are reduced to 1
The plague colony reduces your WS by 1 in the sub fight phase.
If your WS is 1 this is therefore reduced to 0
If your WS is 0 you are hit automatically and cannot attack back. In this case you are so covered in flies and poop ye basically unable to fight back
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/07 15:05:07
Speaking of Death Guard, I am going to start a Vectorium soon. Some advice on loadouts would be *really* helpful for me, as I have never played CSM before.
I am thinking of running:
Chaos Warband:
Sorceror
Lord on Bike
2 10-man CSM squads w/rhinos
Terminators (ordered the Grave Wardens as the models are gorgeous!)
Havocs w/autocannons
Bikes (2x3 or 1x6?)
Oblits
Auxiliary:
Helldrake terror pack (2 heldrakes)
Allied: Renegade Knight
What I'm unsure of is what weapon options/upgrades I should go for. How should I best equip my Lord etc.
Should I run MSU tacs and flood the board with bodies, or run 10-man units, or minimise?
Aiming at 1500 - 1850pts eventually. To start with I'll run the minimum, as my friend builds up his Space Marine army.
@zerosignal: What about putting the Sorcerer on a Bike? Most Nurgle spells benefit greatly from being able to close the distance, and the Primaris loves having a bigger footprint. Making a Force Axe to be Poisoned 4+ makes MCs cry. I'd take the Bikes in a single unit so as to get them all T7 when Leper Curse comes up.
What is the source of chaos artillery shooting into combats? I have Imperial Armour 13, but I'm not seeing it in there so I'm wondering if another book has more chaos renegade rules or if I'm just missing it.
I've been getting lots of games in with all the traitor legion rules and the next one I really want to dive into is Alpha Legion and I'm thinking cultists that come back would combo well with shooting into their melees. Would like to find the exact wordings of everything to make sure there aren't restrictions on anything there.
Question, do you need to take the appropriate Legion detachment (e.g. iron Warriors Grand Company) in order to get the bonuses, free VOTLW and access to the legion artifacts? I thought this was not the case and you could do it in a CAD or whatever, but Army Builder won't let you do it without the specific detachment. did I misread something or is Army Builder just incorrect?
"Any Detachment with the CSM Faction can be from one of the nine Traitor Legions... all units in a (Legion) Detachment or Formation gain the following special rules"
lindsay40k wrote: "Any Detachment with the CSM Faction can be from one of the nine Traitor Legions... all units in a (Legion) Detachment or Formation gain the following special rules"
pepsuber wrote: It would be nice if we didn't need Magnus to get that far.....
As for WE, yea my idea was a cheap butcherhorde. If you take the minimum in berzerkers, no rhino or chainaxes at 5 men only, that pretty cheap. If i need bodies i was thinking khornate lost and damned. Something about a bunch of frothing maniac cultists that screams khorne to me. However, I'd rather not take the lost and damned by itself. That leaves auxilleries. Raptor talon loses out on rage if you Deep Strike then charge, plus your pretty likely to charge the enemy with your foot units before they can even come down. Thing is the khrone lord do i put him in a unit of berzerk and hope for the best? I feel spawn are wasted since they aren't nurgle spawn and already have rage.
WE Raptor Talon is amazing. Take two MSU Raptors with two Melta and Combi Melta. Bam, Land Raiders are dying and Knights are scared. If they don't blow, charge in and drop a Melta Bomb. You're not scattering if one of your Jugger Lords got his Dimensional Key wet on turn one (his mate carries a Talisman of Burning Blood; they can form a unit together in a Land Raider if you're setting up first, and if you're setting up second they can do that or join a Spawn unit). Your Warp Talons, whilst pricey and needing some numbers to absorb Overwatch, are forcing several Blind tests then re-rolling their 3D6 charge to ensure that their Lord rams his Murder Sword down the appropriate throat, and may as well multi-charge that heavy weapon unit because they're Disordered anyway and still get Impact Attacks because they didn't use their Jump Packs to move.
I feel like a Juggerlord with a Dimensional Key, even in World Eaters, is still a pipedream. Unless you're playing against someone who isn't familiar with your 2D6 free move (or you roll amazingly well), your opponent isnt just going to let you turn one assault them anymore. I'd much rather run my Raptors up the table than risk never getting them into the game or a mishap. I'd also never replace my AoBF and Gorefather Juggerlords with other relics. Those things do so much work it isn't even funny.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 00:59:35
Anyone managed to use blight grenades added with the plague colony rule to reduce a unit to WS0 and therefore stop them attacking alltogther?
Could you explain how that works? Where is the plague colony rule found?
Plague colony is a formation of 3-7 units of plague marine units and a lord, its basic rule is units within 7" are -1WS in subfight phase
Blight grenades are defensive grenades (plague marines come with them). Defensive grenades can be thrown, s1 blast, blind
If you are hit by a blind weapon you have to pass and initiative check if you fail your WS and BS are reduced to 1
The plague colony reduces your WS by 1 in the sub fight phase.
If your WS is 1 this is therefore reduced to 0
If your WS is 0 you are hit automatically and cannot attack back. In this case you are so covered in flies and poop ye basically unable to fight back
Doesn't work. Main rule book provides guidance on order of operation on attribute modifiers. Set values (like Blind) are used last unless a rule specifically says otherwise (like say marker lights).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 01:20:37
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
Doesn't work. Main rule book provides guidance on order of operation on attribute modifiers. Set values (like Blind) are used last unless a rule specifically says otherwise (like say marker lights).
can you point me to where in the rule book it details that?
Badablack wrote: I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
BL can do full deepstrike too, it just becomes very expensive very fast due to dreadclaws, but the murder talon can re-roll too, assuming you allow using the jump pack for charging after deepstriking, which works RAW but some people prefer not to allow it anyway.
No argument on the drakes though. Something with meteoric descend as a special rule should really be able to deepstrike -_-.
Badablack wrote: I've gotten a few games in now with the raptor talon using both night lords and black legion rules, and I've honestly gotta say I prefer night lords. They really need to come in the same time as heldrakes to do a fully decisive blow, and the drakes have to come in turn 2. BL requires a hound detachment tax, NL can do pure deep striking. And NL can do full reroll charges so you can drop units down safer distances away.
I'm working on a Heldrake to go with my Hell Blade, come turn two I've usually got air supremacy and reserves arrive on 2+. Even if there's no skimmers and Hell Blade is hitting ground targets on 6s, it's worth it.
