Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.

Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.
w
Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

Chaos warband Havoc and Chosen are superior to Plague marines at MSU, since there both cheaper can take more weapons and in the case of Havocs can load up on relentless heavy weapons instead of specials. You do have to pay a tax on 2 squads of chaos space marines, but even then you can give them a single special.

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists to be fair, but that's not the point.

You don't understand how out of date Mantis Warriors are. For recap:
1. They have a silly clause for the main part of their Chapter Tactics that doesn't allow bulky units to use it. Not even White Scars have that anymore (which is stupid because Centurions really shouldn't be able to use Hit and Run. I digress though).
2. That part of the Chapter Tactic gives them Move Through Cover and Hammer Of Wrath. Charging though terrain gives them Furious Charge, which means very few units will ever make use of that.
3. The next part allows them to reroll to seize, which can be nice, and then they still have a clause saying they can take from Divination. All chapters can do that now.

It'd be like saying you beat Black Templars. Even in a BDC, they aren't good. In fact, most of the FW Chapter Tactics need some updating. You're literally using a 6th edition rule set.

I mean, I don't think I'm never happy as much as you're too happy at everything. You don't understand how little insight that game gave you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.
w
Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

Chaos warband Havoc and Chosen are superior to Plague marines at MSU, since there both cheaper can take more weapons and in the case of Havocs can load up on relentless heavy weapons instead of specials. You do have to pay a tax on 2 squads of chaos space marines, but even then you can give them a single special.

Chosen are definitely silly.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

I can't remember if Typhus can turn Cultists outside his detachment into Zombies. If so, Alpha Legion with an allied Typhus might be pretty bonkers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists

see


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

They can also fart in the enemy's general direction if taken in their new special formation with Typhus.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists

see


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

They can also fart in the enemy's general direction if taken in their new special formation with Typhus.

And as you can see you didn't even bother to address the point I made.

Guys go argue in pm ffs.

Rest of you, Death Guard should be hard to kill and brutal to fight. Not jump packs and normal marines. Fitting seven into 1500 is hard so I dropped that idea, in 1850 maaaaybe its do able. Termies for backfield. Prince is going bonkers with a 2+ cover jinking and 4+ cover in the open, and poison novas and weapons and omg this is so much fun........

My list, and the plan is to spawn me some daemons oh yeah.

++ vectorium (1500pts) ++

+ Core (691pts) +

········Plague Colony (691pts)
············Chaos Lord [Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Chainfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of corruption, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War, Warlord]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]

+ Command (255pts) +

········Lord of the Legion (255pts)
············Daemon Prince [Mastery Level 1, Nurgle, Power Armour, Puscleaver, Wings]

+ Auxiliary (554pts) +

········Terminator Annihilation Force (554pts)
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Terminator Champion [Chainfist, Combi Bolter]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Force Axe, Mark of Nurgle, Power Sword, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Is fleshmetal skeleton or Stormbolt Plate on a Tzeenth prince good enough to make Daemon Princes worth taking again?

 Rydria wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Berzerker 19 ppm compared to marked CSM at 15ppm or whats even more embarassing is a bike at 22ppm or a raptor at 19ppm
Plague marine 24 ppm compared to marked CSM at 16ppm That's 8 fething ppm for defensive grenades and a plague knife! Oh and btw a nurgle biker 26ppm! or again a raptor 20ppm!!!!! thats 4ppm cheaper, still have access to 2 specials per 5 and they move 12" a turn and have deepstrike.
Noise marine 17ppm, marked CSM 15ppm

Noise Marines at least get unique weapons that still gives them a tactical niche unlike berserkers and Plague marines who are just outright inferior to basic chaos marines of there legion.

I'm actually going to try going all in on the Kakophoni formation shredding sonic blasters also aren't that bad mathematically the strength 4 version with shred is better at killing most targets than a heavy bolter/equivalent, while the strength 5 version is superior to a scatter laser vs everything with a toughness value (except things with toughness 10 since the blasters can't harm them) (Bare in mind i'm not a tournament gamer so I probably have a lower standard of good than some of you)

I respect your decision either way, and I have no problem making an army out of a theme or fluff so don't get discouraged by my push back. However this is a tactics thread so I feel that while we can respect the theme of our builds we have to also take off the rose tinted lenses. Heavy bolters are not good, I am not even going to list the reasons as I feel like that would be talking down to the thread, and shredding blasters are now where near a scatter laser, to suggest so is so disingenuous and insulting to the scatter lasers power. Scatter lasers have a 36" range for one and for two are only available on platforms that allow them to move and shoot, so may as well be assault. They fire an additional shot, and have strength 6, shredding s5 is nowhere near as god as flat s6. I can prove it by asking you, if you had the option of s6 blasters or shredding s5 which would you take? Clearly the one that can wreck vehicles, ID t3, and still ruins infantry and MC's alike.

Again, I field noise marines myself, but because the doom siren and blast master are still worth the price of admission. Blasters still don't synergize with the models carrying them and cost far too much. Again, in order to get the strength benefit and shred, you are forced into taking 6 units, that's 6 champion taxes on shooting units. That champion tax can't be ignored since it is 60 points from the formation that are worthless since your kitting them to shoot. But by far the biggest issue I have is the lack of obsec, the only reason my army wins 75% of the time is due to this amazing rule. 160pts for 5 noise marines with a blastmaster in a rhino on an objective. With proper objective placement you can start the game sitting 3 of those units on 3 objectives at least most of the time. Also try to always place them in or near terrain, opt for night fight. This combo is a PITA to remove from an objective early on and lobs a small blast, ignores cover, pinning battle canon at enemy objectives. The kakaphoni can still field these units at the same price, but rather then 3-4 units, I now need a redundant number of them and they don't need to be touched on objectives. I'll tell you from experience as a seasoned Dark Eldar player that the kakaphoni would be my wet dream in any match. MSU beasts and min bike units can jump on your objectives for the contest every turn and due to their discount price compared to yours I can double down making you waste those expensive shots on a handful of wounds while still contesting you since I can swarm you. Now try a CAD with those noise marines and it's a literal 180 tactically. I now have to waste precious AT trying to pop a rhino only so 5 fearless bodies can disembark onto that same objective using the wreck to block LOS to most of my poison.

The other issue I have not running a CAD for the record is the fact that if I run an EC detachment for the drugs and FNP 6+ I can't field noise marines in the chaos warband again denying me obsec. The formations don't allow for retaining obsec which sucks, so again it encourages MoS CSM, raptors and chosen. I've gone full circle on the flaw, albeit a nitpick with this release. Beyond fluff reasons, there is next to no reason in running cult troops outside a CAD. Then even in a CAD it is not worth it except for in the case of weapon load outs for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:
Guys go argue in pm ffs.

Rest of you, Death Guard should be hard to kill and brutal to fight. Not jump packs and normal marines. Fitting seven into 1500 is hard so I dropped that idea, in 1850 maaaaybe its do able. Termies for backfield. Prince is going bonkers with a 2+ cover jinking and 4+ cover in the open, and poison novas and weapons and omg this is so much fun........

My list, and the plan is to spawn me some daemons oh yeah.

++ vectorium (1500pts) ++

+ Core (691pts) +

········Plague Colony (691pts)
············Chaos Lord [Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Chainfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of corruption, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War, Warlord]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]

+ Command (255pts) +

········Lord of the Legion (255pts)
············Daemon Prince [Mastery Level 1, Nurgle, Power Armour, Puscleaver, Wings]

+ Auxiliary (554pts) +

········Terminator Annihilation Force (554pts)
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Terminator Champion [Chainfist, Combi Bolter]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Force Axe, Mark of Nurgle, Power Sword, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Your plague colony is 38 points per wound... No obsec...no special weapons... Why bother with the plague colony is my question? The only benefit is -1 ws and -1 initiative at point blank range, at which point you have no teeth anyway. Without obsec your not scoring either. Hilariously your next option also lacks obsec but hat a 2+ 5++ and both ranged and cobat punch with psychic buffs at 55 points per wound. Why not just double down on the terminators, Take the DP in a CAD with cultists and give the DP the pox walker hive and have obsec T4 zombies that regain in number each turn on your back field objectives?

Just a quick question regarding Psychic power selection as I have read a number of ways to play this and wonder if I am doing it wrong?

With a marked sorc or prince the rule book clearly states they get the primaris power on top of those they know. As this is newer than the codex does this not take presedence over the stipulation to generate 1 power from the gods discipline?

I have played quite a few ganes with chaos but rarely use sorcerers. I am taking the number of powers their level allows from whatever I like then the marked power as a bonus, my local GW shop manager also thinks I should be able to take the primaris from another discipline if I role all in one, potentially having 4 powers for a lvl 2 sorc. Is this not correct/how others play?

Sorry if this should not be in this thread but it has a large impact on how I intend to use my Word Bearers going forward!

Hi guys I think my list helps plague colony work better... what do you think?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/710414.page

I've maxed the squads to get the toughness reduction benefit. They'll be in the opponents face soon thanks to 4+ cover Rhinos (smoke launchers). I would consider mixing specials to keep them flexible and of course the terminators can beam down and join in the party turn two give the opponent plenty of target priority issues. Can easily jiggle the points to get burning brand on the sorcerer beaming down. Remember the leader of the annihilation force doesnt pay for their armour and Votlw is free.

So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

well if they are in the warband those chosen and havocs have obsec anyhoo

Anyone thought about relentless/fnp rapier batteries using Purge detachment? Hades rattlecannons or laser destroyers crawling all over the table seems like they'd be pretty nasty. If you're taking heavy bolter havoks, why not just go whole hog and take 3x quad heavy bolter rapiers for more dakka and more toughness

EDIT: bah, just checked and rapier crews can take marks or veterans. nevermind!

 luke1705 wrote:
So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

Why so down, seems like the list is doing what it is expected to do. I mean 4 first turn charges in legacy style deployment is pretty nuts. You can't expect to charge the enemy before he gets to reach for his measuring tape AND table him with no riposte. It's a meat grinder style army, not sure any of the new chaos stuff can be expected to take home a trophy from any of the other top dogs.

Maybe a tell us your list specifically and each game/ opponent for perspective? Hard top tell what you mean by heavy losses without knowing what you started with and what died to what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:
Anyone thought about relentless/fnp rapier batteries using Purge detachment? Hades rattlecannons or laser destroyers crawling all over the table seems like they'd be pretty nasty. If you're taking heavy bolter havoks, why not just go whole hog and take 3x quad heavy bolter rapiers for more dakka and more toughness

Can they purchase marks? That would be the only hurdle otherwise yea, gross.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

Why so down, seems like the list is doing what it is expected to do. I mean 4 first turn charges in legacy style deployment is pretty nuts. You can't expect to charge the enemy before he gets to reach for his measuring tape AND table him with no riposte. It's a meat grinder style army, not sure any of the new chaos stuff can be expected to take home a trophy from any of the other top dogs.

Maybe a tell us your list specifically and each game/ opponent for perspective? Hard top tell what you mean by heavy losses without knowing what you started with and what died to what.

Had the WE Decurion detachment with with the Maelstrom of Gore (no upgrades)
As my Auxiliary, just a MoK Spawn
And the 4 command choices were:
1) Juggerlord w/MoK, Talisman, power fist
2) Juggerlord w/MoK, Gorefather
3) Jugglerlord w/MoK, Axe of Blinding Fury
4) Juggerlord w/MoK, Bloodfeeder

The only real upgrade I had points for was a single power first on one of the berzerker champions.

It'll do great in Dawn of War games where it can go first, and of course I can expand the list at 1850. The games I played were also odd because they were 1250 points per player, but 2500 points per side. So I was literally the meat grinder. And they did that job admirably. First game, I played with Space Marine allies (we did random pairings) vs Space Marines and Imperial Knights. In the first game, we went first and I rolled pretty decently, which allowed me to pop two land raiders and and imperial knight on turn one, plus hilariously fail to kill a single space marine captain. That game went well, needless to say.

The second game, I played with an Ork player against a Space Marine and Eldar player. Probably should have known how that game was going to go from the get-go, especially when we rolled hammer and anvil deployment. The talisman squad did still make their charge (good job guys) and that was also the squad with kharn in it, so he went toe to toe with a wraith knight (sword and board version) causing it to have to take 5 invulnerable saves. Only one failed feel no pain. Womp. The knight then proceeded to d out both kharn and the lord (failed 2+ LOS is super OP, let me tell you). The marine player didn't have a super good list, but 3 grav cents with the hunter's eye plus a screen of d scythe wraith guard was good enough to close that one out handily. Oh, also there was a second wraith knight (shooty variety) which 6'd gorefather at range (yet another failed LOS). The zerkers really wanted to prove themselves in combat I guess.

The third game was even stranger, a 2 v 2 v 2 with a sort of triangular deployment. It was the fluffiest game, with me and another CSM player vs IK and SM vs Eldar and Harlequins. The mistake that I made (though I don't feel that I had any other choice) was splitting my four mini death stars into two fronts, sending two towards the IK player and two towards the Eldar/Harlequins. It was pure Maelstrom, and Kharn killed a knight without skipping a beat (a theme that I enjoyed thoroughly throughout both games this happened) and almost forced a second knight to try and charge him, which would have been great for Kharn....but then he died to the heavy stubber. The other front got brutalized by a Solitaire from the detachment where he re-rolls invulnerable saves of 1. Truly, I've never failed so many 3+ saves in my life...was at 8 out of 9 straight at one point.

I know that these games were outliers from the norm for a number of reasons, but I still worry because the lists were hardly super-competitive except for probably the 3 IKs at 1250. I just don't think the list has enough durability to stand up to other armies without Be'Lakor, and even then I'm reduced to one death star casting invis and if that gets denied....well sad times.

I'm interested in running a mono khorne army with the maelstrom of gore in a WE detachment, plus probably a CSM CAD with Be'Lakor and a forge world Chaos Knight Errant. Sadly, that can't be a WE CAD....I don't know if Be'Lakor can even be in a legion. Will have to look into that, especially if that benefits the Knight somehow. I'll keep you guys updated, as an 1850 along those lines will most likely be what I run next week, but I'm open to suggestions.

Alright, I'm really indecisive about how to run a DP with this new book alongside my Night Lords. I'm planning on running a Raptor Talon, and toying between a warband under the Murder Talon, or a CAD so I can get my fire raptor in there.

Should I run him with the Stormbolt plate and Mark of Tzeentch to make him ultra-durable, or throw the Black mace on him to make him a close combat monster?

He's less effective in combat without the mace, but you're looking at a 2+ armor save and then a 2+ jink save, rerolling 1's...

Anyone else seeing some great legion combos? I'm liking a Death guard detachment with world eaters. The DG handle the shooting and objective secured while WE use their nice bonuses to cover quick CC.

 buddha wrote:
Anyone else seeing some great legion combos? I'm liking a Death guard detachment with world eaters. The DG handle the shooting and objective secured while WE use their nice bonuses to cover quick CC.

I'm just liking the Death Guard because Nurgle is SO COOL haha. For sure I'll be trying them out with the world eaters because you're totally right about the shooting and durability, which is exactly what you want with objective squatters.

I just played a game (1850) vs Tau + BA with the new DG Vectorium (ye, because neither do i see any reason to take the colony, sadly)
My list was (everything MoN and VotLW)
Warband
-Typhus (i know hes not cost effective, but hes my favourite, besides i handsculpted him, so hes going nowhere until mortarion arrives)
-5 Chosen with 4 plasmas and PF
-2x 5 CSM with plasma/melta and PF + Rhinos with Dirges (never did get close enough vs Tau to do anything, but i just cant resist the chance of once being useful)
-2x3 Bikes with 2x meltas and Powersword
- 5 havocs with 4 AC
Terminator Annihilator Force
-5x Termies with reaper, combiplasmas/melta, power axes and one PF
-3x Termies with LCs (i know, garbage, need to retool these)
-3x termies with 2xCF, combiplasma/melta/flamer, power axe
- Sorci lv3, termiarmour, combisomething, force axe, blight grenades, spell familiar

i wanted to roll some teleporting shenanigans on sinistrum, i ended up with reroll saves (was great vs missiles) and adamantium will/fearless (useless) plus regain wounds on nurgle. typhus had regain wounds and debuff D3

He had a Tau CAD with buffmander, darkstrider with shotgun guys in DF, kroot snipers, missilesides, and a hammerhead plus the new BA 3x5 Termi DS-assault thing with TH+SHs

The game was 3 secret TOs at hammer/anvil. It didnt go bad, i just didnt have luck with my TOs (at least not as much as him), so i ended up losing, but my army actually performed well in my eyes, i just made some mistakes (need to think through what unit to hate with termies to maximize the DS-shooting, etc..). I expected the guys to be a pain in the ass to kill, and that they were by all means, i just need to figure out, how to optimise the offensive punch. I had the feeling, if i just had to sit on objectives, i wouldve won easily, but to hop around for TOs, DG is a bit slow, characteristically.

neither of us are power gamers, so even if i saw a top dog tau list i wouldnt know it, the same with him, but he is my primary gaming opponent, so he knows what to expect from my army, hence the T-ignoring kroot, and the T reducing darkstrider. Still its a casual game, so i'm not primarily interested in what ways our lists suck balls in a tournament environment, but rather how to optimize it while retaining its main shape in your opinion?

edit: do i read it right, that chosen actually could have had 5 plasma guns?

This is a build I was thinking of, when trying to make use of daemonology

Word Bearers Grand host

Lord of the Legion 320
Daemon Prince
- Nurgle
- Power armour
- Wings
- + 3 mastery levels
- Spell familiar
- The malefic tome

Lord of the Legion 150
Sorcerer
- Terminator armour
- +2 mastery levels
- spell familiar

The lost and the Damned 305
(stock)

Raptor Talon 585
Chaos Lord
- Jump pack
- Lightning claw
- Powerfist
- Aura of dark Glory

Raptors
- 2x meltagun

Warp Talons
- Mark of Slaanesh

Warp talons
- Mark of Slaanesh

Hellforged Warpack 485
Warpsmith

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

1845 total

So the Prince rolls on Daemonology, fishing for cursed earth, making him Warlord might help out (+1 mastery potential), the sorc is there for wc battery and support rolling on either ectomancy or sinistrum, Using Cursed earth to get the talons into position of some juicy 3+ units (MoS is there to get first attacks in). Daemon engines are in there because I lik them, but could be swappend for something else, the LatD are there to fish for Daemon princes.

There are a few problem though, as the DP is really expensive, and getting it into position turn 2 can get tricky. This list is also left to the mercy of the dice gods, as getting the right power(s) is critical, otherwise the raports could scatter off and just stand there.

An other option is to drop the sorc and hellforged warpack to get another daemon prince and switch the raptors out for warp talons (maby get in 1 more unit of warp talons even)
Any thoughts?

trindaros wrote:
This is a build I was thinking of, when trying to make use of daemonology

Word Bearers Grand host

Lord of the Legion
- Daemon Prince

A bold move!

The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

I think you're looking at the berzerkers as too much of a frontal assault unit. As you found, they don't have any staying power after the initial bumrush. In order to give them any kind of protection, they either need Rhinos crashing into the enemy lines alongside them for cover, or Raptors rushing into combat with them, or some other unit taking advantage of the WE benefits to join in the fray and take pressure off the berzerkers.

This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

That's relying to much on a Power for a unit that's still outperformed by Raptors. You need the anti tank anyway. Run into more than one Imperial Knight and you've got nothing outside of Maulerfiends, who aren't going to do well in that fight.

I mean honestly I think you need to play more games with your list in a more conventional format. Team matches can be loads of fun but they don't actually tell you much on how one army will do on its own. I played in a team tourney with space wolves and my team mate had tyranids, it was a crazy good combo and we went undefeated with some bizarre lists that on there own wouldn't have done as well.

Some of the enemies you faced seem crazy as well, I mean eldar with D scythe guard and two wraith knights paired with hunters eye cents? Not much anyone can do against that lol. That would table even a min maxed death guard list fairly easily. Doesn't help you were paired with orks lol, probably should have been you and the marine player verses the ork and eldar player but random pairing and all lol. Thats what 40k needs, more random ha ha.

 Roknar wrote:
This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

Glorious isn't it?

and now battlescribe won't work and I can't even deal.

 Muzsikus wrote:
I just played a game (1850) vs Tau + BA with the new DG Vectorium (ye, because neither do i see any reason to take the colony, sadly)
My list was (everything MoN and VotLW)
Warband
-Typhus (i know hes not cost effective, but hes my favourite, besides i handsculpted him, so hes going nowhere until mortarion arrives)
-5 Chosen with 4 plasmas and PF
-2x 5 CSM with plasma/melta and PF + Rhinos with Dirges (never did get close enough vs Tau to do anything, but i just cant resist the chance of once being useful)
-2x3 Bikes with 2x meltas and Powersword
- 5 havocs with 4 AC
Terminator Annihilator Force
-5x Termies with reaper, combiplasmas/melta, power axes and one PF
-3x Termies with LCs (i know, garbage, need to retool these)
-3x termies with 2xCF, combiplasma/melta/flamer, power axe
- Sorci lv3, termiarmour, combisomething, force axe, blight grenades, spell familiar

i wanted to roll some teleporting shenanigans on sinistrum, i ended up with reroll saves (was great vs missiles) and adamantium will/fearless (useless) plus regain wounds on nurgle. typhus had regain wounds and debuff D3

He had a Tau CAD with buffmander, darkstrider with shotgun guys in DF, kroot snipers, missilesides, and a hammerhead plus the new BA 3x5 Termi DS-assault thing with TH+SHs

The game was 3 secret TOs at hammer/anvil. It didnt go bad, i just didnt have luck with my TOs (at least not as much as him), so i ended up losing, but my army actually performed well in my eyes, i just made some mistakes (need to think through what unit to hate with termies to maximize the DS-shooting, etc..). I expected the guys to be a pain in the ass to kill, and that they were by all means, i just need to figure out, how to optimise the offensive punch. I had the feeling, if i just had to sit on objectives, i wouldve won easily, but to hop around for TOs, DG is a bit slow, characteristically.

neither of us are power gamers, so even if i saw a top dog tau list i wouldnt know it, the same with him, but he is my primary gaming opponent, so he knows what to expect from my army, hence the T-ignoring kroot, and the T reducing darkstrider. Still its a casual game, so i'm not primarily interested in what ways our lists suck balls in a tournament environment, but rather how to optimize it while retaining its main shape in your opinion?

edit: do i read it right, that chosen actually could have had 5 plasma guns?

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe darkstryder can only join pathfinders, which is why y9ou don't see him ever lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

That's relying to much on a Power for a unit that's still outperformed by Raptors. You need the anti tank anyway. Run into more than one Imperial Knight and you've got nothing outside of Maulerfiends, who aren't going to do well in that fight.

Bull crap, I know a guy who regularly fields 3 mauler fiends with lasher tendrils SPECIFICALLY for hunting knights and it works consistently. They nerf the knight down to 1 attack and he can't target them all, you can get 3 easy for the price of the knight. If they have multiple knights then they are sinking alot of their army into them and I almost guarantee you they are taking a crusader, whos guns actually suck against AV12. I consistently see those gatling canons doing a single HP or nothing to armored targets.

Iron Warriors and The Purge Detachment from Vraks seems like a doable option ?

1hq and 2 elites mandatory and up to 8 Troop slots. Leaves lots of room for oblits. and the addition of barrage which IW can take advantage of . Also can add in a Traitor Knight or even the Brass Scorpion for Stupid.

Havent looked into it a lot but could this be the way to go with IWs ?

IW already get oblits as troops, so do you even need the purge? Is it worth losing objective secured? Not sure how you are getting barrage. Renegade allies are cool, but they can't be iron warriors.

Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

 Roknar wrote:
Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

I was thinking that. I just don't think it's as good as the bonus movement from the WE detachment tho. Is hilarious how many attacks you could get.

Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

 Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

The kharybdis already has intertial guidance, so scatter isn't a particularly big issue.
Shame it can't get into a black legion detachment.

A one two punch with a fist of khorne still sounds fun.

 Roknar wrote:
Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

It's funny for sure but it' gets to a point where it is entirely unnecessary tactically. I mean, we can all assume when the WE get into combat they will mulch what they hit. What they need more is delivery and durability.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

260pts

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

It's a whopping 260 points, but I keep looking for excuses to bring one since I love the model lol.
It has inertial guidance, but that's fine for protecting vs mishaps, not so much to maximize damage.
The Kharybdis is huge, so with a 3+d3 aoe around it you could hit quite a lot. The first time I proxied it to test it wiped out a whole pathfinder unit on arrival.
I'm wondering what this would do to a tau gunline without scatter. It also happens in the movement phase so there's not much they could do about it.

NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

Am I forced to take the Plague Colony to get the benefits from Death Guard Vectorium or can I pick any other Core detachment?

You can take a Chaos Warband instead of the Colony

 Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

So, does anyone know if you can stack the Black Legion supplement and this new book for the purpose of relics?

Really kind of want to run a Nurgle biker lord with a 2+/4+ FnP but not sure if I have a way to give him the 2+ armor

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

drop that bad boy on top of your own horrors and let split party commence

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

Spoiler:

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

feth that's great stuff you got there.

Seeing as Chosen are troops and can take one as a Dedicated Transport it would be OS, which is cool.

Or was that the crap claw that was dedicated?

Can I get the Death Guard special rules on with the Purge Detachment and can I use Terminator Annihilation Force, Mayhem Pack, Daemon Engine Pack, Helforged Warpack combined with The Purge Detachment?

New at 40k and Detachments/Formations is still confusing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

Spoiler:

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

feth that's great stuff you got there.

Seeing as Chosen are troops and can take one as a Dedicated Transport it would be OS, which is cool.

Or was that the crap claw that was dedicated?

Sadly, they only get the smaller claw. So no objective secured for the kharybdis.
Plus in order to benefit from the key, you would need 1 dreadclaw so that can come in turn 1 and this stays in reserve. Although that claw would be obsec at least.

**edit**
Actually, hold on a sec. That aoe S6 flamer attack hits vehicles on their weakest side. That means glancing rhinos, razorbacks, vindicators, most walkers on a 4+, with ignore cover.
It might actually be rather good vs extreme msu style armies , like a gladius.

Now if we could convince Forge World to make it a dedicated transport for terminators, then it could also have ObSec. That would do it for me and I could finally cave and get one.
I think I'm gonna send them a mail XD

Not to mention that would allow night lords to confer stealth to it via nightfighting for a 2+ jink first turn.

saruon wrote:
Can I get the Death Guard special rules on with the Purge Detachment and can I use Terminator Annihilation Force, Mayhem Pack, Daemon Engine Pack, Helforged Warpack combined with The Purge Detachment?

New at 40k and Detachments/Formations is still confusing.

You can make any chaos detachment/formation any legion as long as it follows the basic legion rules, so yes to the Purge Death Guard. Same with the mayhem pack. Both of those are stand alone detatchments. The others are a bit of a mixed answer. You can take the terminator one, mayhem, and helforged. However, they are all auxiliary choices for the larger "decurion" detatchment so you will need a core formation as well. The daemon engine one is an auxiliary option for the Black Legion "decurion" only. Sad.

Read through the detatchments/formations here. It might help. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines(7E)#Detachments_and_Formations

Another option would be to download battlescribe. It shouldn't be relied on for points (always check with a book) but it generally gets the detatchments and options correct.

So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

You can have as many detachments as you want. A battleforged army is organized into detachments. Formations are detachments too.

Now, the traitor legions let you modify detachments of the chaos space marine faction. So you can have a purge detachment and make it a legion detachment. The units in a purge are organized according to their role, (troops, elites, etc).

In parallel to the purge you can also use formations like the terminator annihilation force. The formation tells you which units you need to bring. Those formations can also be dedicated to a legion. That can be a different legion too, the purge and any other detachments you bring aren't linked in any way.

So you can also bring the Black Legion-only daemon engine formation. You just can't dedicate it to death guard because it's already dedicated to the black legion.

Cores and auxiliaries have nothing to do with formations as such. That is just how certain detachments are organized. Instead of troops, elites, etc, it is divided into core formations and auxiliary formations and so on. So a Deathguard Vectorium( or whatever it's caled) needs 1 Core choice ad 1 auxuiliary as minimum. And the chart shows you want counts as a core formation.

I hope that makes more sense.

saruon wrote:
So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

Getting close, but still not quite right. You take the Mayhem pack as a separate detatchment. So you would have three. Each one of them can be declared Death Guard if you want.
1) The Purge
2) the Mayhem Pak
3) a multi formation detatchment

For the multi formation detatchment (3) you need a core and an auxiliary formation. Your options for the Death Guard for the core are a Vectorium (chaos warband) or the Plague Colony. The Lost and the Damned counts as an auxiliary formation for the Death Guard. The TAF and Helforged would be auxiliaries.

On the other hand, you could just take a Death Guard CAD for option 3 and fill it with whatever you want. You would still get the Death Guard bonuses (fearless, FNP, and relentless) but not the special bonuses of the various formations. You would get objective secured troops instead.

saruon wrote:
So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

Given the pretty massive bonus of rerolling 1's on fnp, I would recommend trying the vectorium detachment. It lets you take some elites and heavys as core and with objective secured.

There is a daemon engine formation called the hellforged warpack. It's slightly different to the black legion one 1 warpsmith 3-5 daemon engines.

All of the formations in the new book can be taken on their own. The only auxiliary choices which aren't standalone formations are the Lord of the Legion and spawn options.

Be careful with the multi formation tactica. The old one is for the black crusade detachment, which is cool but not as good for the death guard. The difference is the death guard vectorium can't take lost and the damned as a core option (but can take a plague Marine core)

The relics giving 2+ armour are good on their own but crazy good for daemon princes of Tzeentch. The Alpha Legion version is good in a decurion (2+ re-rollable armour save all game, 2+ re-rollable cover save on T1) but the Night Lords equivalent is even better- it gets that re-rollable cover save all game! How do you counter that? AP2 CC attacks would be effective; a dreadnought is a good counter, assault termies can manage, and the various knights won't have any problems. Any CC attacks without AP2 are effectively worthless though. Shooting with AP2 and ignores cover would do damage but if used right those daemon princes will be in combat on the opponent's turn

Now to figure out how to represent drakescale plate on a daemon prince.

 Roknar wrote:
This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

Exactly what I've been going through

Back in 3.5 it was easy enough to take advantage of all of the benefits of a specific legion- now there is so much more offered we have to pick and choose our favourite bits. It's a nice dilemma to be in!

Problem i am having with some of my older armies is i have a lot of cad style builds like for example my deathguard have 3 obilts, a lascannon pred and a defiler but now with the funky new rules i can't fit those into the super detachment to well without dropping some of them and buying new models.

It seems the more i ponder lists the more a warpsmith keeps rearing his ugly head as a bit of a tax.

I could just keep to the cad but that re-roll 1 on fnp and stealth, i need that in my life! ugh.

Right now I kind of want to try adding a kharybdis to a key list. It sucks that I need a core and a talon to make it work, not to mention no Obsec, but it's good enough of an excuse to field one for me. But not good enough to pay for the damn thing in RL, for that it would need to be a dedicated choice for termies or whatever so that it could become Obsec. That would push me over the edge. Not to mention it would be hilarious to see it harassing your opponent, ramming, burning, pinning and stealing objectives lol.

My one question is why do plasma pistols cost 15 points… a melta does everything it does except better and cheaper. Only thing the plasma pistol does extra is grant an extra attack in close combat but that isnt worth the 5 points and gets hot vs.an extra strength the melta special rule and ap 1 for that vehicle damage chart… what the heck is that?

That's not a question to traitor legions really.

Don't ask why some wargear appears useless, we'll be here all day

macluvin wrote:
My one question is why do plasma pistols cost 15 points… a melta does everything it does except better and cheaper. Only thing the plasma pistol does extra is grant an extra attack in close combat but that isnt worth the 5 points and gets hot vs.an extra strength the melta special rule and ap 1 for that vehicle damage chart… what the heck is that?

They cost the same in every book, it's silly.

Right now I'm trying to work on my jointed Alpha Legion/Death Guard army. My question is how do we do Chosen?

Obviously there's an ability to spam special weapons, so we would need a few extra bullet catchers if we go above 2 weapons. I was thinking at first 3 Plasma Guns in a group of 7 with a Rhino, which comes up to 206 points. They get real close and are safe for maybe a turn hiding in the Rhino.
The next idea is to just take two weapons at the stock size with a Rhino. With Plasma Guns that is 155 points. That clearly doesn't take up a lot of points, but once the Rhino is dead they're dead. They're still T4 3+ bodies after all, and they're pretty expensive without much more benefit (they have more attacks and LD. YAY? Though I suppose you're paying for the benefit of being able to spam weapons, but whether that's worth it has yet to be seen).
The other next option is to just go ballistic and buy 5 special weapons and a Rhino and hope you live to see something die horribly. 6 dudes total with 5 Plasma Guns is 218 points with a Rhino, but the squad becomes an even easier target to kill compared to #1, and is much more expensive by a unit of Cultists compared to #2.

Either option presents itself as better than the regular Marine squad. Compare the first option I created with 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns a Rhino at 205 points. For one more point we lose 3 Bullet Catchers but there's more Plasma Guns, ergo there's a more dangerous squad. The same logic will take place with Melta Guns as well, but I think our Bikers will be fine with doing that, but if that isn't satisfactory we can ally in Nurgle Bikers to actually get the job done or Gorepack to get the good stuff cheaper.

Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

Their close combat ability is having 3 attacks each.

That's a trap in the same way a Guardsman could have two attacks base, but not as extreme in the example I give. Think about their transport options and how likely they're charge anyway. You could Infiltrate without the Rhino, but that's a whole turn out in the open for them to die. They aren't getting their melee weapons as cheaply as Vanguard or Honour Guard do (the latter coming with Bolters they'll use for maybe one turn, if that). The Alpha Legion doesn't have any melee benefits if they want to charge compared to other warbands.

Yeah you would have the option, but it isn't a fantastic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

That gets even more expensive. A single 5 man with a Plasma and Combi with a Rhino is 135 points. How is that saving any points in the long run?
It is a cheaper initial investment that goes wrong right after you get another one.

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but i came across it last game, where i rolled the +1 to fnp death guard warlord trait in the vectorium Its wording is "add +1 to your warlords fnp rolls", iirc, so the warlord loses his reroll on 1s, or are rerolls happening on natural 1s before the modifier?

 zedsdead wrote:
Iron Warriors and The Purge Detachment from Vraks seems like a doable option ?

1hq and 2 elites mandatory and up to 8 Troop slots. Leaves lots of room for oblits. and the addition of barrage which IW can take advantage of . Also can add in a Traitor Knight or even the Brass Scorpion for Stupid.

Havent looked into it a lot but could this be the way to go with IWs ?

Barrage can only come from the Land Raider Achililes and Thunderhawk from the chaos arsenal. I've been trying to theorycraft a Purge detachment for ages but its insanely expensive with that Achilles. You'd have to take Chosen flamers and/or havoc missiles launchers to make use of it (to get the shred). If you're not going for a ton of flamers/missiles, plus an Achilles there's no reason whatsoever to go for that detachment. The unorthodox fore org isn't worth the loss of ObSec without making use of the detachments other bonus'.

 Muzsikus wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed, but i came across it last game, where i rolled the +1 to fnp death guard warlord trait in the vectorium Its wording is "add +1 to your warlords fnp rolls", iirc, so the warlord loses his reroll on 1s, or are rerolls happening on natural 1s before the modifier?

I would say the re-roll triggers off the roll of a natural 1.

i feel like a dope complaining about something, when this book makes me giddy with all the options. But I really wish demon engines had a 1-3 option like spawn. I want to throw in a single forgefiend to fill out some points, but the option is none, or 650 points for 3+warpsmith.

in that vein, the most affordable way i can think of to do that is a forgefiend and 2 hellbrutes. (don't judge i love the models) still expensive, but not half you army expensive. So can I get some thoughts on hellbrute loadouts, most discussions i've been able to find are from pre-extra attacks faq. I'm thinking plasma+fist. Threatening enough in combat to run interference against drop pods and whatnot, but mostly sitting in back lobbing blast templates. +1 to cover save from range with death guard isn't too shabby either.

Yeah it would be sweet. The thousand sons get it .. grumble..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can cheat and take a KDK allied detachment.

Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Tried fitting a kharybdis in key list. It's not a fleshed out list by any stretch of the imagination.


Black Legion Speartip
(hounds as core) 1 juggerlord with axe, 5 man csm, 5 man zerkers, 3 man bike all naked
(raptor Talon) 1 lord with claw and key, three 5 man units of double melta raptors

1 Black Legion CAD

1 Black mace nurgle prince lvl3 (and armour), one three man termi plasmacide and a 5 man chosen unit with 4 melta
And finally a kharybdis and an obsec claw for the chosen.

That's 1800 points. Considering a 1850 list, that doesn't leave much to work with. There's some leeway with the prince, but the rest is about as barebones as it gets.
The prince is 315 points, but might be worth it. Though I could just be shoehorning it in because I have a converted model lol.
I'd probably drop the armour mind you, to round out the hounds a bit more, maybe even drop a level.

On the other hand, dropping the prince for another lord to join the chosen or one the hound csm could also be good.
That would free the points to add some bodies rather than having everything as msu and give out some fearless. Besides, the hounds formation isn't much use as is.

With the prince, for turn one, you would run up with the juggerlord + bikes, the prince, deepstrike the chosen to disembark them and hopefully unlock the key.
Maybe plasma chosen would work better than melta for that, but getting behind a knight before it can tear you up could be worth the risk. Besides, they could still use their extra attacks. Might even be an idea to drop the weapons on the raptor bodyguard. The points could be more useful in other places.

Turn two, you would drop 2 non scatter raptors (which WILL assault), 1 ObSec plasmacide and the kharybdis. By now you should be able to assault with the juggerlord and the prince too. Not sure what to do with the csm or zerkers, but there are enough points to add a rhino and the kharybdis is a transport. The list could use a bit more anti horde, so maybe give them a flamer?

Any thoughts?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

NamelessBard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

Neither does Typhus's rule. It says "any Chaos Cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies." His CSM rules were written pre detatchment stuff, and as far as I know, haven't been updated since the codex. Typhus can indeed change the cultists into zombies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus affects cultists in your army, not detachment, so I don't see how you wouldn't be able to. Hell, technically daemonkin cultists could be turned since they have the mark of khorne built in and you wouldn't be taking any options.

As for the list, since you're going with a CAD, how about changing a unit of chosen into a unit of hades autocannon rapiers?
They are rather flexible as far as potential targets are concerned. Or a vindicator laser destroyer, the rest of the list is rather short ranged after all.

I've always had good results with flamers. A flamer or two never go amiss. I'd put them with the chosen though. the cultists aren't as likely to use them and the chosen get more out of it with their extra attacks in addition to overwatch. Cultists getting charged aren't likely to be in much shape to offer much resistance.

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus affects cultists in your army, not detachment, so I don't see how you wouldn't be able to. Hell, technically daemonkin cultists could be turned since they have the mark of khorne built in and you wouldn't be taking any options.

As for the list, since you're going with a CAD, how about changing a unit of chosen into a unit of hades autocannon rapiers?
They are rather flexible as far as potential targets are concerned. Or a vindicator laser destroyer, the rest of the list is rather short ranged after all.

I've always had good results with flamers. A flamer or two never go amiss. I'd put them with the chosen though. the cultists aren't as likely to use them and the chosen get more out of it with their extra attacks in addition to overwatch. Cultists getting charged aren't likely to be in much shape to offer much resistance.

I might wait to do that when they might get VotLW because Death Guard would be broke.

However, that's not a bad idea. I'd only have two Chosen Infiltrating. I get nervous...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

The chosen units are bad. I mean, your paying for 3 plasma guns on a unit in a transport with 2 fire points, so it's safe to assume your hopping out. Top that off with purchasing 2 extra guys for some odd reason and you have a very expensive unit with mediocre damage output. 206 points for a few plamsa guns on none fearless marines? Why even bother with the AL detachment, you chose a CAD. Infiltrate is not that amazing, in 9 out of 10 games it gets you 6" further from your deployment zone. You bought rhinos, so that isn't a very big boon as you have mobility. You could just take a chaos warband from the deathguard detachment and you would be way better off since the chosen would still have obsec but be much more durable and have relentless.

I mean for example lets ignore the horrible loadout on the chosen and just crunch numbers like for like.

7 AL chosen with 3 plasma guns in a rhino comes to 206 pts

compared to 6 death guard chosen with the exact same gear with comes to....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

Their close combat ability is having 3 attacks each.

That's a trap in the same way a Guardsman could have two attacks base, but not as extreme in the example I give. Think about their transport options and how likely they're charge anyway. You could Infiltrate without the Rhino, but that's a whole turn out in the open for them to die. They aren't getting their melee weapons as cheaply as Vanguard or Honour Guard do (the latter coming with Bolters they'll use for maybe one turn, if that). The Alpha Legion doesn't have any melee benefits if they want to charge compared to other warbands.

Yeah you would have the option, but it isn't a fantastic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

That gets even more expensive. A single 5 man with a Plasma and Combi with a Rhino is 135 points. How is that saving any points in the long run?
It is a cheaper initial investment that goes wrong right after you get another one.

thankfully we don't have that issue here, we house ruled charging from vehicles that haven't moved when 7th first hit, all the other restrictions still apply of course.

on the plus side, it means assault armies can actually compete in our tournaments, and everyone Is happy with that, I know it doesn't help here, but I'm just musing

Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

hmm with the WE 2d6 move, how are you guys playing that if they are going though difficult terrain?

 koooaei wrote:
Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

An nurgle biker squad would work pretty good with 2 plasma, a combiplamsa and a fist, add maby 2 or 3 bodies with MoN would make it a nightmare, but a very expensive one

Helldrakes with 3+ jink is pretty cool


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And people have probably already noticed but2+ jink on Prince is very nice indeed.

 koooaei wrote:
Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

Usually I took a unit of both already before the update. So far spawns didn't really impress me and if they don't profit from DG rules they might fall behind even more.

I was thinking of Combining the Warpsmith+Mutilator/Obliterator formation with the "Mindveil" Relic

As the Special Formation Ability grants Mutilators to attack with 2 different weapons in a turn and allows the Mutilators to Attack with I4 Chainfists (as the Rule States, Resolve the First set of attacks (Pick Power Swords for this) and then Immediately Resolve the Second set of attacks (Pick Power Fists/Chainfists for this one))

So Mutilators that Charge your units, Deal HEAVY Damage, Disengage and Charge the Same Unit, Or a Different one, EVERY TURN

(Unless the Warpsmith Cannot join Mutilators)

Did i miss something or dp can now forego 3+ armor and save 20 pts?

 koooaei wrote:
Did i miss something or dp can now forego 3+ armor and save 20 pts?

Princes have always had to buy their Power Armor (or now, Relic Armor).

I thought csm princes came stock with power armor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

The other option I could see here is to to treat both the cultists and chosen as expendable. In that case you could add another plasma and remove 2 guys and the rhino, adding 56 points per chosen unit. Though going second could loose you the game, so probably not a good idea competitively. Still, stripping one unit is still 83 points to spend. That's enough for one rapier of your choice that could sit on a back objective.

BTW I just read this on 1d4chan's article but... what is warpsteel armor? It is mentioned in various relics but... did they give them at last artificer armor equivalent to CSM??

 koooaei wrote:
I thought csm princes came stock with power armor.

tutuut, you been cheating for years ? XD

I haven't been fielding DP for years

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Kharybdis have pseudo ObSec? It can ram and if you run into non vehicle units when ramming, you perfrom a tank shock.
Now given the size of a kharybdis, couldn't you tankshock onto an objective and just sit on it? Due it's size and enemy units needing to stay 1 inch away from it, they would no longer be within 3 inch of an objective?

It wouldn't work all the time, but still.

 commander dante wrote:
I was thinking of Combining the Warpsmith+Mutilator/Obliterator formation with the "Mindveil" Relic

As the Special Formation Ability grants Mutilators to attack with 2 different weapons in a turn and allows the Mutilators to Attack with I4 Chainfists (as the Rule States, Resolve the First set of attacks (Pick Power Swords for this) and then Immediately Resolve the Second set of attacks (Pick Power Fists/Chainfists for this one))

So Mutilators that Charge your units, Deal HEAVY Damage, Disengage and Charge the Same Unit, Or a Different one, EVERY TURN

(Unless the Warpsmith Cannot join Mutilators)

That is what my list is looking like but the cult of destruction is running as DG for the +1T and fnp. Basic list is a DG CAD with Typhus, marines and some rapiers. A DG cult of destruction with a 3 mutie squad, an oblit and an oblit. An AL insurgency force with the lost and the damned (9 min units of cultists) as the aux. The dark apostle takes the Mindveil and joins the unit of muties with the warpsmith and Typhus. Move the unit 3d6 around the board and auto erase whatever unit it touches. The 90 zombies slowly take objectives up the board and if any unit of them dies, they return infiltrating on a 4+, two return on two 4+.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

The chosen units are bad. I mean, your paying for 3 plasma guns on a unit in a transport with 2 fire points, so it's safe to assume your hopping out. Top that off with purchasing 2 extra guys for some odd reason and you have a very expensive unit with mediocre damage output. 206 points for a few plamsa guns on none fearless marines? Why even bother with the AL detachment, you chose a CAD. Infiltrate is not that amazing, in 9 out of 10 games it gets you 6" further from your deployment zone. You bought rhinos, so that isn't a very big boon as you have mobility. You could just take a chaos warband from the deathguard detachment and you would be way better off since the chosen would still have obsec but be much more durable and have relentless.

I mean for example lets ignore the horrible loadout on the chosen and just crunch numbers like for like.

7 AL chosen with 3 plasma guns in a rhino comes to 206 pts

compared to 6 death guard chosen with the exact same gear with comes to....

Spoiler:

206pts

Those are the harshest words I've gotten on this forum from a first draft list! And I thank you for it!

I do think Infiltrate is amazing, and it got even better thanks to Servo Skulls being removed from the Inquisitor update. Being able to throw the Chosen up in the front with screening Cultists seems like a good plan, but you're probably right on the loadouts.
They just don't do anything special in any detachment outside having more attacks and being able to spam weapons.

Are you recommending I lose a Plasma Gun? The third one is used for drop offs and bad positioning on my end so that I still have two in a squad. If that's the case I could probably lose another Chosen too.
Or I could just lose the Rhino and go all Melta. I dunno.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
I was thinking of Combining the Warpsmith+Mutilator/Obliterator formation with the "Mindveil" Relic

As the Special Formation Ability grants Mutilators to attack with 2 different weapons in a turn and allows the Mutilators to Attack with I4 Chainfists (as the Rule States, Resolve the First set of attacks (Pick Power Swords for this) and then Immediately Resolve the Second set of attacks (Pick Power Fists/Chainfists for this one))

So Mutilators that Charge your units, Deal HEAVY Damage, Disengage and Charge the Same Unit, Or a Different one, EVERY TURN

(Unless the Warpsmith Cannot join Mutilators)

That is what my list is looking like but the cult of destruction is running as DG for the +1T and fnp. Basic list is a DG CAD with Typhus, marines and some rapiers. A DG cult of destruction with a 3 mutie squad, an oblit and an oblit. An AL insurgency force with the lost and the damned (9 min units of cultists) as the aux. The dark apostle takes the Mindveil and joins the unit of muties with the warpsmith and Typhus. Move the unit 3d6 around the board and auto erase whatever unit it touches. The 90 zombies slowly take objectives up the board and if any unit of them dies, they return infiltrating on a 4+, two return on two 4+.

You can ally the Alpha Legion in and join whatever you want into the unit.
Using an Allied Detachment you could get a cheap unit of Infiltrating Cultists as a distraction and get a Sorcerer on a Bike and add the Mindveil and roll on whatever table you feel right.

The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

Neither does Typhus's rule. It says "any Chaos Cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies." His CSM rules were written pre detatchment stuff, and as far as I know, haven't been updated since the codex. Typhus can indeed change the cultists into zombies.

Yeah, I realized my error afterward. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, it did bring up another question. If they become zombies, are they still cultists? Meaning, the AL rules say that cultists gain infiltrate, but they are zombies so they may not get it.

So how are people interpretating using Lost and the Damned with the Alpha Legion Cult Uprising rule? Can you potentially get two units for each destroyed? Two separate rules doing the same thing,

Claas wrote:
So how are people interpretating using Lost and the Damned with the Alpha Legion Cult Uprising rule? Can you potentially get two units for each destroyed? Two separate rules doing the same thing,

That's how I see it.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

Neither does Typhus's rule. It says "any Chaos Cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies." His CSM rules were written pre detatchment stuff, and as far as I know, haven't been updated since the codex. Typhus can indeed change the cultists into zombies.

Yeah, I realized my error afterward. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, it did bring up another question. If they become zombies, are they still cultists? Meaning, the AL rules say that cultists gain infiltrate, but they are zombies so they may not get it.

That is an interesting quandary, but I think the plague zombies would still count as cultists, just with new rules tacked on since they aren't given a separate dataslate.

Requizen wrote:

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

I keep looking at this. The problem is the sheer number of tax units makes getting anything else difficult.

I mean obviously I want the WE detachment for the +2d6 bonus move. And at that point, the extra +3 charge range and fleet from the maelstrom of gore is icing on the cake.


You can really overclock a unit of kharne and bezerkers.

Astral Grimoire sounds good but I think it's better to eschew it in favor of a KDK detachment and use Hounds for the core of the death star. They're still the best we've got as a base and already move 12" anyway. And Captyn Bob is on the money about the tax units. You need minimum 5 units of Cultists just to get mindveil and the talisman into a unit of hounds and then that precludes a Sorceror cabal which is what really makes the star tick.

Requizen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

Can't be done. Rules prohibit mixing chaos marks so you can have Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion or World Eaters and Alpha Legion, but never Thousand Sons and World Eaters in the same unit.

That said there are still great possibilities sticking to only one mark.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

I keep looking at this. The problem is the sheer number of tax units makes getting anything else difficult.

I mean obviously I want the WE detachment for the +2d6 bonus move. And at that point, the extra +3 charge range and fleet from the maelstrom of gore is icing on the cake.


You can really overclock a unit of kharne and bezerkers.

astro_nomicon wrote:Astral Grimoire sounds good but I think it's better to eschew it in favor of a KDK detachment and use Hounds for the core of the death star. They're still the best we've got as a base and already move 12" anyway. And Captyn Bob is on the money about the tax units. You need minimum 5 units of Cultists just to get mindveil and the talisman into a unit of hounds and then that precludes a Sorceror cabal which is what really makes the star tick.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

Can't be done. Rules prohibit mixing chaos marks so you can have Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion or World Eaters and Alpha Legion, but never Thousand Sons and World Eaters in the same unit.

That said there are still great possibilities sticking to only one mark.

Fair enough, I don't know CSM that well.

So maybe a unit of Hounds with Mindveil and Talisman with a bunch of nasty characters? Essentially just a better version of current Houndstar - faster and not able to get locked in combat.

Is the Cabal only for BL? Or can you make the Sorcs Alpha Legion for the Mindveil?

So I'm going to be doing some proxy games this weekend to see if the traitor legions book is enough to tempt me back to chaos.
However I am having issues writing an Emperors Children list. The world eaters list I wrote was quite straight forward (MSU, no vehicles, a few choppy characters) but the Emps Kiddies are causing me some major dilemmas.
Do I go shooty with the noise marine core formation, augmented with some spawn, a deamon prince and maybe a raptor talon?
Or is close combat more suited, seeing as you can get atrocious levels of durability with huge units? Any advice for either approach is appreciated

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

Can't be done. Rules prohibit mixing chaos marks so you can have Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion or World Eaters and Alpha Legion, but never Thousand Sons and World Eaters in the same unit.

That said there are still great possibilities sticking to only one mark.

It depends on what he attaches to what. An indie character with a mark cannot attach to a unit with a different mark, but an indie without a mark can attach to a marked unit and vice versa. Two indies with different marks can also attach to an unmarked unit. So a lord with a mark can attach and a sorc with a different mark can both attach to an unmarked unit. When the unmarked unit gets wiped out leaving two marked independents gets wiped, I'm not really sure what happens as the rules don't address it, but I would say they have to go their separate ways.

My initial inclination with EC is to go primarily close combat with a bit of shooting support. You have to pay for +1 initiative on all your units which is wasted if you never go toe to toe and 4+ FNP can certainly be a big boost in getting you there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

Can't be done. Rules prohibit mixing chaos marks so you can have Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion or World Eaters and Alpha Legion, but never Thousand Sons and World Eaters in the same unit.

That said there are still great possibilities sticking to only one mark.

It depends on what he attaches to what. An indie character with a mark cannot attach to a unit with a different mark, but an indie without a mark can attach to a marked unit. Two indies with different marks can also attach to an unmarked unit. So a lord with a mark can attach and a sorc with a different mark can both attach to an unmarked unit. When the unmarked unit gets wiped out leaving two marked independents gets wiped, I'm not really sure what happens as the rules don't address it, but I would say they have to go their separate ways.

Once the first IC joins it is now a unit with a mark so no other differently marked characters can join.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
My initial inclination with EC is to go primarily close combat with a bit of shooting support. You have to pay for +1 initiative on all your units which is wasted if you never go toe to toe and 4+ FNP can certainly be a big boost in getting you there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Mindveil Oblitstar does sound very entertaining though, since it's basically Hit and Run, but better in most every way.

No Initiative check. You don't have to move the full distance, unlike H&R, and you can change direction. The no-consolidate on top of all of that is just beautiful as you can now make use of Flame weapons with even more brutality than beforehand.

Haha I'm thinking of a super-friends-esque Deathstar for CSM. 1k Sons for the Astral Grimoire, Alpha Legion for the Mindveil, World Eaters for the Talisman of Burning Blood.

There's a unit that moves 15" per turn (12" from Astral, +3" from the Talisman), and can move out of combat if they get locked in to charge again. Enjoy having the fastest combat Deathstar in the game that can't be tarpitted. Granted it takes all 3 of your detachment slots in ITC, but some may consider that worthwhile.

Can't be done. Rules prohibit mixing chaos marks so you can have Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion or World Eaters and Alpha Legion, but never Thousand Sons and World Eaters in the same unit.

That said there are still great possibilities sticking to only one mark.

It depends on what he attaches to what. An indie character with a mark cannot attach to a unit with a different mark, but an indie without a mark can attach to a marked unit. Two indies with different marks can also attach to an unmarked unit. So a lord with a mark can attach and a sorc with a different mark can both attach to an unmarked unit. When the unmarked unit gets wiped out leaving two marked independents gets wiped, I'm not really sure what happens as the rules don't address it, but I would say they have to go their separate ways.

Once the first IC joins it is now a unit with a mark so no other differently marked characters can join.

Please provide some citation for that as it is an issue that people have been commenting about since the CSM codex was initially released.

Man its really a shame you can't do a proper Chaos Super Friends with only 3 detachments. I came up with this and it looks pretty good but it's 4 detachments. Still I'll post it for consideration.

+++ Chaos Super Friends (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2013) (1813pts) +++

++ Allied Detachment (Chaos Khorne Daemonkin v2000) ++

+ HQ +

········Herald [Exalted Locus of Wrath, Hellblade]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [7x Cultists]
············Cultist Champion [Autopistol]

+ Fast Attack +

········Flesh Hounds [20x Flesh Hounds]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [World Eaters]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Chaos Lord [Juggernaut of Khorne, Lightning Claw, Mark of Khorne, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Talisman of Burning Blood, Veterans of the Long War]

········Kharn the Betrayer

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

++ Formation Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Black Legion]

+ Formation +

········Cyclopia Cabal
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Alpha Legion]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, The Mindveil, Veterans of the Long War]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Fhionnuisce wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)

I wish you were right as it would have meant lots of free points before free points were a thing.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)

The "squad" doesn't get the mark but the unit has a mark. There is a mark there in the unit. It doesn't say all models in the unit. It doesn't say the unit before ICs join. It just says the unit has a mark. If you want to ignore that IC for the purposes of determining if the unit has a mark but include the IC for all other rules it really seems like you should be citing rules that support that.

That said this conversation is better suited for YMDC so feel free to take it there if you really feel like there is a case.

Well as for super friends, we can't spam allied detachments like loyalists. But we can take a herald (or whatever) and two cultists from daemonkin/daemons and then spam allied detachments of legions. I don't really care about the number of detachments it would take, only points.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)

The "squad" doesn't get the mark but the unit has a mark. There is a mark there in the unit. It doesn't say all models in the unit. It doesn't say the unit before ICs join. It just says the unit has a mark. If you want to ignore that IC for the purposes of determining if the unit has a mark but include the IC for all other rules it really seems like you should be citing rules that support that.

That said this conversation is better suited for YMDC so feel free to take it there if you really feel like there is a case.

Will do, we will report back!

Here's my recipe overclocked bezerkers

Butcherhorde ( circa 1000)

Jugger lord fist/claw talisman of burning blood.

20 bezerkers, fist.
3x 5 bezerkers
1 khorne spawn.

Thousand sons Fist of the gods (starts at 400)
Warpsmith, aura, astral grimoire
3x predators.

Alpha Legion CAD (~ starts at 190)
Sorceror, mindveil
2x cultists.

So that's 3 detachments, at around 1600 pts, leaving a bit spare for upgrades and stuff.
There's a lot of units, but nothing is useless. cultists can infiltrate, zerkers surge forward in a scary mass.

The TS warpsmith can boost the blob T1, and then look after his tanks. Maybe with 1 unit of cultists as protection.


So the bezerker blob gets a 2d6 re-deployment move, 15" move, d6+3 run, and 2d6 +6" Charge, with fleet.
Fast. Lacks in durability, only have one sorceror to try and get invisibility/shrouding. Also gets red rain one per game to double assault, and the mindveil so you are never having a turn you aren't charging.

I am really digging Black Legion for their flexibility, and I'm impressed with the Hounds of Abbadon formation, one that I passed over on my first read through.

Gives models the Mark of Khorne for free, plus a once per game assault-after-run. If they roll 8+ for assault they get +1 Strength.

Unit requirements are lower than the "Chaos-Demi-Co" and it gets you Berzerkers in a Black Legion list. But more tasty are the basic Chaos Space Marines for 13ppm CC loadout. Rage, Counter Attack, Crusader, Endless Hatred. I didn't quite appreciate them until a trial battle when I was rolling two dice for runs (picking the highest) and throwing buckets of attack dice and re-rolling to hit. I'm now thinking about a cloud or two of them with Icons to re-roll charges.

Best of all? It's a Core formation for Black Legion Decurion.

Also used the Cyclopea Cabal. In the psychic phase I was getting a White Scars Command Squad to fire his Ignores Cover special weapons at other White Scares Bikers and doing terrible damage. Nasty, nasty power.

I lost the game, I had thrown together my army in a hurry and didn't really know how to use it. But I got a nasty round of charges off against multiple Bike Squads and had I been better prepared for it/rolled a little better, my opponent and I agreed that things looked dodgy for a pretty competitive White Scars list. I came away from the game with very good impressions.

I'm actually thinking that the easiest way to do a deathstar is just the old "take be'lakor for auto-invis".

My debate: I want to include Be'Lakor and a Chaos Knight (forge world) and I could certainly take them as a CSM CAD, but then I wouldn't get any of those sweet sweet legion bonuses.

I could (and probably should) just take a Daemons CAD with the pink and blue horrors, but I don't like taking the grim without fateweaver, and I think both would probably be overkill

belakor + some cheap horrors is a sound supporting detachment.
A herald with paradox goes well too, to summon in new units with only 5 warp charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also an easier way to get a daemon knight into a list.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Man its really a shame you can't do a proper Chaos Super Friends with only 3 detachments. I came up with this and it looks pretty good but it's 4 detachments. Still I'll post it for consideration.

+++ Chaos Super Friends (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2013) (1813pts) +++

++ Allied Detachment (Chaos Khorne Daemonkin v2000) ++

+ HQ +

········Herald [Exalted Locus of Wrath, Hellblade]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [7x Cultists]
············Cultist Champion [Autopistol]

+ Fast Attack +

········Flesh Hounds [20x Flesh Hounds]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [World Eaters]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Chaos Lord [Juggernaut of Khorne, Lightning Claw, Mark of Khorne, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Talisman of Burning Blood, Veterans of the Long War]

········Kharn the Betrayer

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

++ Formation Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Black Legion]

+ Formation +

········Cyclopia Cabal
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Alpha Legion]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, The Mindveil, Veterans of the Long War]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

The Mindveil is much more important than the Talisman. You can still do first turn charges easily in NOVA format, with 4 lvl3 sorcerers fishing for Soulswitch or Worldwrithe.

In ITC format I would use the extra pts to bring a Chaos knight as a LoW with the legacy to give your hounds +1 Invuln which is also more important than +3" charge

Only units consisting completely of WE legion are able to 2D6 redeploy, so no adding a Sorc unless he hauls ass up to the unit after they redeploy. Your best bet with this list is to rush the blob forward, start the Sorc and Warpsmith in the infiltrators if possible so they can meet the blob halfway, then they join the blob before it assaults. Your berzerkers should always be at the front of the blob to benefit from the talisman + formation bonus.

Funny as a concept but not a serious idea.


If you wanted a first turn charge with bezerkers, you could use the fist of khorne formation. And then your super fast world eater characters can move up and join them for a charge. Could probably daisy chain some sorcerers too

LOL. 3 kytans with potential 1-st turn charges.

 koooaei wrote:
LOL. 3 kytans with potential 1-st turn charges.

Dont think it can be done with the butcher horde. Vehicles can't use the 2d6 redeployment.
Can be done with world writhe. Heehee

Oh, right - forgot bout that. Too bad.

Anywayz, back to kacophonii. I've calculated some stuff and the 6-squad configuration of 3*5 with blasters + siren and 3*10 with blasters, 1 blastmaster and an icon + more or less geared Lord - all in dozer rhinos - would eat up ~ 1600 pts. Which is not really an option cause you end up with a limited amount of not very mobile meq dudes with mostly anti-infantry weaponry.

3 min squads with or without blastmasters seem more adequate and would clock around 500-600 pts before the lord.

Anyone tried out Emperor's children paired up with a Night lords legion?

Night lords legion gives night fighting by default. While Emperor's children has weapons that ignore cover. So, 1st turn night fight, they will shoot you with heavy cover save while you shoot back at them ignoring their cover saves.

A night lords legion decurion is cheap if you get the raptor talon core. Pair up with a Emperor's children CAD.

... You mean night lords right?

Ppps yes night lords. Sorry my bad Let me go and amend i.t

The problem is you won't get to fire the first turn as sonic weapons are salvo and you're not relentless. Well, unless you get Huron or something. But it's gona require another detachment. I think that sonic noize marines are still bad.

Basically. You can get decent range with the blastmasters . If you really wanted to take advantage you'd need something clever like deadclaws

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Basically. You can get decent range with the blastmasters . If you really wanted to take advantage you'd need something clever like deadclaws

are you going to play 3k pts or something?

Haha yeah I don't see it working out too well.

A lot of these formations are written to play at points values way above what people really play. If you build out a warband formation with the min units required, but at reasonable levels (i.e what would actually work rather than MSU to get it as cheaply as possible) then right there you've got enough for a smaller 1500pt game (some legions get cheaper core formations than others but many are expensive). Once you throw on a mandatory aux formation at a reasonable level you're hitting (or are close to) the 1850 mark. To get a good varied and balanced game out of these detachments you really want to be taking 2-3 aux choices to cover everything. Now you're talking about 2500 or 3k points games. For example, you can take any detachment that requires a warband as core, plus the mandatory aux from whichever formation would best suit that legion (Raptor Talon for NL's, LatD for AL etc) you're already hitting a full 1850 list. But you have nothing resembling a tank (god forbid you try and squeeze a dedicated LR in there somewhere). to get a tank you have to buy 3, and a warpsmith. There's another 500pts spent, just to get a tank on the table.

It's crazy. The detachments are good and all but the level of play they're built around is crazy. When SM's can squeeze everything into an 1850 list (and get 500 pts of free transports to boot) it's kind of silly that chaos can't even field a tank at 1850. You really have to go combined arms for 75% of your effectiveness and just use the formations as extra's.

A lot of very cool super-allies tactics can be cobbled together out of this book, but the points costs are incredible to pull it off. It's a shame that most of the books potential won't ever get used.

Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.

As I'm thinking of Night Lords list, I would have really preferred if they had amended Warband by allowing the compulsory 2-6 csm squads be replaced with Raptors, like as a legion specific rule. Is being able to get obsec Raptors too effective? I don't think so. So running the Warband + Talon as cores nets me a many raptors and obsec units. They problem with this is everything is so cheap. With Night Lords it would make sense to gear up 1 or 2 quite big and scary biker groups with lord afront soaking up fire and maybe also Daemon Prince of Change with 2+ rerollable jink. This way the softer raptors squads and rhinos and cms' could concentrate on doing obsec. This doesn't work however because I am forced to take so many useless squads that I can't spare enough dakka or hackka ware for the scary units. And those champions and lords need to be equipped, otherwise the cheapest enemy unit is just gonna tar me, or even better, their only "ok" cc unit is gonna come at me and crush me in cc. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

So I'm a bit dissappointed, but not all hope is lost. My current idea to test is to load Chosen and Helbrute into dreadclaws, as the rules allow them as dedicated for these units. Their function would be to soak up fire, while everything else charges ahead. I did my math, dreadclaw actually can take punishment much better because of the jink, Str 6-7 weaponry is not that effective against it. Also the embarked units take almost no damage even if dreadclaw gets destroyed, thanks to hover. This seem expensive, but paying 100 points to force enemy to destroy 2 AV 12 vehicles, 1st one with 4+ jink on 1st turn/2nd turn (I would prefer have enemy begin the game) or have the dreadnaught charging them on my 2nd turn.
OK why can't helbrute buy smoke launchers? That is so wrong..

I think they could have made this supplement a bit better, but I'm happy nonetheless.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Man its really a shame you can't do a proper Chaos Super Friends with only 3 detachments. I came up with this and it looks pretty good but it's 4 detachments. Still I'll post it for consideration.

+++ Chaos Super Friends (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2013) (1813pts) +++

++ Allied Detachment (Chaos Khorne Daemonkin v2000) ++

+ HQ +

········Herald [Exalted Locus of Wrath, Hellblade]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [7x Cultists]
············Cultist Champion [Autopistol]

+ Fast Attack +

········Flesh Hounds [20x Flesh Hounds]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [World Eaters]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Chaos Lord [Juggernaut of Khorne, Lightning Claw, Mark of Khorne, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Talisman of Burning Blood, Veterans of the Long War]

········Kharn the Betrayer

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]

++ Formation Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Black Legion]

+ Formation +

········Cyclopia Cabal
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Alpha Legion]

········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]

+ HQ +

········Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, The Mindveil, Veterans of the Long War]

+ Troops +

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

The Mindveil is much more important than the Talisman. You can still do first turn charges easily in NOVA format, with 4 lvl3 sorcerers fishing for Soulswitch or Worldwrithe.

In ITC format I would use the extra pts to bring a Chaos knight as a LoW with the legacy to give your hounds +1 Invuln which is also more important than +3" charge

Good points. I was thinking more along the lines of nerfed Soulswitch though which I feel is pretty common. The knight idea is solid, but I don't own one and won't be getting one anytime soon.

So assuming, 3 detachment and nerfed Soulswitch, I'd drop the WE detachment and retain Mindveil. That leaves 527 pts to play around with. What would be the best way to spend them (besides a knight)? Could probably grab a 5th Sorc in the Cabal (so 6 Sorcs total), a heldrake, and a beat stick KDK Lord.
Or would more infiltrating ob sec cultists be a good idea? Losing Kharn Khan is a bit disappointing since he deals so well with one of the big shortcomings of the star, IKs, but could proabably be worked around.

Demantiae wrote:
A lot of these formations are written to play at points values way above what people really play. If you build out a warband formation with the min units required, but at reasonable levels (i.e what would actually work rather than MSU to get it as cheaply as possible) then right there you've got enough for a smaller 1500pt game (some legions get cheaper core formations than others but many are expensive). Once you throw on a mandatory aux formation at a reasonable level you're hitting (or are close to) the 1850 mark. To get a good varied and balanced game out of these detachments you really want to be taking 2-3 aux choices to cover everything. Now you're talking about 2500 or 3k points games. For example, you can take any detachment that requires a warband as core, plus the mandatory aux from whichever formation would best suit that legion (Raptor Talon for NL's, LatD for AL etc) you're already hitting a full 1850 list. But you have nothing resembling a tank (god forbid you try and squeeze a dedicated LR in there somewhere). to get a tank you have to buy 3, and a warpsmith. There's another 500pts spent, just to get a tank on the table.

It's crazy. The detachments are good and all but the level of play they're built around is crazy. When SM's can squeeze everything into an 1850 list (and get 500 pts of free transports to boot) it's kind of silly that chaos can't even field a tank at 1850. You really have to go combined arms for 75% of your effectiveness and just use the formations as extra's.

A lot of very cool super-allies tactics can be cobbled together out of this book, but the points costs are incredible to pull it off. It's a shame that most of the books potential won't ever get used.

I get what you're saying, but I have to point out that the SM Battle Company only really works in 1850 if you're also taking minimal squads, and only one (fairly cheap) Auxilliary. From that standpoint it makes sense that Chaos winds up in a similar situation. It's really, really difficult to get fancy wargear in the full-Co Gladius. The moment you start looking at Sternguard, Conclave or serious tanks you wind up hampering squad effectiveness or just giving up the free transports because you can't fit it.

Chaos has so many tempting units and upgrades. . . it's really hard to control the points spending.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)

I wish you were right as it would have meant lots of free points before free points were a thing.

The rules for independent characters tell us once joined they form a new unit, it doesn't matter that each model doesn't have the mark. What matters is this new unit now contains a model with a mark which is why a different marked character cannot join. "Considered part of the unit" tells us all we need, you are not just joining the original unit, your joining him as well. A mark is gear, same as terminator armor, we don't ignore the restrictions on sweeping advance and terminator armor when a character joins a power armored unit do we? By your reasoning way more implications that break the game open up.

The burden of proof is actually on your argument. W40K is a permissive rules set. You need to show us where it says it is legal in light of the codex suggesting it isn't.

Unrelated to this debate, for the record I was wrong earlier in regard to Typhus. Your were correct, I just wanted to state that

Ghorgul wrote:
Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.

It's funny because I think the exact opposite. I see no issue running a 1500+ point warband

A CAD is easy to open up with an Alpha Legion detchement with a sorcerer/lord + infiltrating cultists can be had for 250 points or less (depending on upgrades).

As a deathguard player, I want to take CSM, bikes and Havoks. I don't really like the Elite slot, but with adding in AL and mindveil, I can add in choppy terminators and have less worry about movement issues.

All of that is fairly cheap and I can toss in a spawn as aux.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am really digging Black Legion for their flexibility, and I'm impressed with the Hounds of Abbadon formation, one that I passed over on my first read through.

Gives models the Mark of Khorne for free, plus a once per game assault-after-run. If they roll 8+ for assault they get +1 Strength.

Unit requirements are lower than the "Chaos-Demi-Co" and it gets you Berzerkers in a Black Legion list. But more tasty are the basic Chaos Space Marines for 13ppm CC loadout. Rage, Counter Attack, Crusader, Endless Hatred. I didn't quite appreciate them until a trial battle when I was rolling two dice for runs (picking the highest) and throwing buckets of attack dice and re-rolling to hit. I'm now thinking about a cloud or two of them with Icons to re-roll charges.

Best of all? It's a Core formation for Black Legion Decurion.

Also used the Cyclopea Cabal. In the psychic phase I was getting a White Scars Command Squad to fire his Ignores Cover special weapons at other White Scares Bikers and doing terrible damage. Nasty, nasty power.

I lost the game, I had thrown together my army in a hurry and didn't really know how to use it. But I got a nasty round of charges off against multiple Bike Squads and had I been better prepared for it/rolled a little better, my opponent and I agreed that things looked dodgy for a pretty competitive White Scars list. I came away from the game with very good impressions.

Dose the hounds of Abadon give obsec? If not I still like the CWBand better, I'd rather pay for the mark of Khorne then get it and a few situational benefits and lose Obsec.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Dose the hounds of Abadon give obsec? If not I still like the CWBand better, I'd rather pay for the mark of Khorne then get it and a few situational benefits and lose Obsec.

No the the Hounds do not get Obsec. Although the generic Chaos Warband is also not available to the Black Legion Speartip, only the Hounds of Abbadon and the Black Legion Warband, which instead of granting Obsec can give re-rolls of ones to-hit instead.

Not having Obsec is definitely a risk, although in my first game with Legions I found that they held objectives okay simply because my opponent didn't want to get near my all CC troops. I'll be interested to see how that pans out for me as I get more games in.

The other benefit to the Hounds is that it's the cheapest Core in the book. 1 Lord, 1 Berzerkers, 1 CSMs, and 1 Raptors is the minimum. So if you want to go crazy on the Auxilliaries or whatever, you can.

That said, thematically I'm much more interested in my Chaos guys being more lethal with their bonuses, rather than being good at holding objectives. So I'm all for the trade off. At least in my first game, it was really fun to see how hard they can hit. I actually felt good about Raptors.

Ghorgul wrote:
Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.

As I'm thinking of Night Lords list, I would have really preferred if they had amended Warband by allowing the compulsory 2-6 csm squads be replaced with Raptors, like as a legion specific rule. Is being able to get obsec Raptors too effective? I don't think so. So running the Warband + Talon as cores nets me a many raptors and obsec units. They problem with this is everything is so cheap. With Night Lords it would make sense to gear up 1 or 2 quite big and scary biker groups with lord afront soaking up fire and maybe also Daemon Prince of Change with 2+ rerollable jink. This way the softer raptors squads and rhinos and cms' could concentrate on doing obsec. This doesn't work however because I am forced to take so many useless squads that I can't spare enough dakka or hackka ware for the scary units. And those champions and lords need to be equipped, otherwise the cheapest enemy unit is just gonna tar me, or even better, their only "ok" cc unit is gonna come at me and crush me in cc. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

So I'm a bit dissappointed, but not all hope is lost. My current idea to test is to load Chosen and Helbrute into dreadclaws, as the rules allow them as dedicated for these units. Their function would be to soak up fire, while everything else charges ahead. I did my math, dreadclaw actually can take punishment much better because of the jink, Str 6-7 weaponry is not that effective against it. Also the embarked units take almost no damage even if dreadclaw gets destroyed, thanks to hover. This seem expensive, but paying 100 points to force enemy to destroy 2 AV 12 vehicles, 1st one with 4+ jink on 1st turn/2nd turn (I would prefer have enemy begin the game) or have the dreadnaught charging them on my 2nd turn.
OK why can't helbrute buy smoke launchers? That is so wrong..

I think they could have made this supplement a bit better, but I'm happy nonetheless.

I just wanted to point out that a dreadclaw in a night lords detachment has a 3+ jink first turn, not a 4+. They don't get stealth for being NL or the better cover save, but night-fighting gives them stealth. The same would be true for any non detachment units, since night-fighting applies to everything.

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Stormbolt Plate?

 Roknar wrote:

I just wanted to point out that a dreadclaw in a night lords detachment has a 3+ jink first turn, not a 4+. They don't get stealth for being NL or the better cover save, but night-fighting gives them stealth. The same would be true for any non detachment units, since night-fighting applies to everything.

Hey that's good! Didn't even realize, that's even better then. I'm always thinking the detachment bonus rule +1 to cover saves on 1st round, but of course everyone gets stealth.. thanks!

Actually then Kharybdis would be even better choice, and actually a solid reason to skip Murder talon altogether and just go with the CAD. It costs more but it actually has serious firepower! Then I could also field Sicaran and do full Raptor Biker list otherwise.

Ghorgul wrote:

. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.

The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.

The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.

Actually we still need to do Murder Talon, be it with Raptor Talon or whatever, but that is the thing that forces night fight, so can't go only with CAD. I was so excited already. But anyway, that would be ok, as Raptor Talon is a bit cheaper and less restrictive than Warband, although does pile up fast to atleast 500 to 600 points.

I understand Night provides Stealth to everyone and having 2 Stealths don't stack I think? So only the detachment Bikers can get 2+ Jink on first turn, and that's due to the Murder Talon detachment bonus +1 cover + Stealth + Jink. Anyway, even constant 3+ Jink is good for bikers.

EDIT 15.12.2016 Corrected grammar.

Last night I played with the following list against Necrons:


First two turns were pretty fun. I split my force up so one half of the table was the bikes, termies, lords, kharn, and prince, and the other half was just one unit of bikes and CSM. The point heavy side did well, but couldn't punch through reanimation protocols on his necro-lord and escort as well as I wanted them to. Hell, I charged his lord and escort with the prince, termies+lord+kharn, and a unit of CSM, and they teleported out with only a few loses. The CSM and bike side might as well have not been on the table, getting shot to death by arks and the the large blast of doom. The Helbrute was a complete waste of points, never got anywhere close to combat, and will never stain my table again. Overall I spent too many points on too many useless models.

My heavy lifters were the prince, kharn, and the lord, and this really showed me that even with the buffs, regular CSM aren't going to pull weight even with upgrades. A World Eater detachment that is doing its job is getting its IC's into combat. Because of this, I'm going to try a Maelstrom of Gore next game and see just how much faster I can get across the table. I might even ally in a Gorepack to give my four Berzerker units some much needed cover.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).

Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)

I wish you were right as it would have meant lots of free points before free points were a thing.

The rules for independent characters tell us once joined they form a new unit, it doesn't matter that each model doesn't have the mark. What matters is this new unit now contains a model with a mark which is why a different marked character cannot join. "Considered part of the unit" tells us all we need, you are not just joining the original unit, your joining him as well. A mark is gear, same as terminator armor, we don't ignore the restrictions on sweeping advance and terminator armor when a character joins a power armored unit do we? By your reasoning way more implications that break the game open up.

The burden of proof is actually on your argument. W40K is a permissive rules set. You need to show us where it says it is legal in light of the codex suggesting it isn't.

Unrelated to this debate, for the record I was wrong earlier in regard to Typhus. Your were correct, I just wanted to state that

I guess it is probably best to check the tourney rules (Adepticon and NOVA both allow it as both use ITC rulings--see their FAQ) or talk it over with your opponent pregame.

I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

Why do you think the Blastmaster was a waste but not the salvo Bolter?

Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

 koooaei wrote:
Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

Go big or go home. Noise Marines aren't good at assaulting anyway once you add either weapon though, and then you can get regular Marines to do the whole Blob thing better.

It just seems the Blast master is the true advantage they have.

Anyone thought about a leadership debuffing list?
War cabal with telepathy, casting shriek on a 3+ (and invisibility and shrouding for durability.
Helldrake formation -1/2
Allied plague Herald with bell -1
NL vox daemonicus -1
Anything else?

Could do some real damage.
Would be good mixed with an unmarked legion like alphas / night lords/ iron warriors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

Go big or go home. Noise Marines aren't good at assaulting anyway once you add either weapon though, and then you can get regular Marines to do the whole Blob thing better.

It just seems the Blast master is the true advantage they have.

Well. Seems like a trap to me. You're better off with just a sonic for 27 pt cheaper. They get shred in formation which is good enough. Still not amazing for 20-21 pt but passable with shred if you really want noize marines. Let's put it this way. If you were running noie marines beforehand, they only become better. Significantly better. But still not good enough in the common way. You'd not insta loose if you field them at least.

Ghorgul wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.

The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.

Actually we still need to do Murder Talon, be it with Raptor Talon or whatever, but that is the thing that forces night fight, so can't go only with CAD. I was so excited already. But anyway, that would be ok, as Raptor Talon is a bit cheaper and less restrictive than Warband, although does pile up fast to atleast 500 to 600 points.

I understand Night provides Stealth to everyone and having 2 Stealths don't stack I think? So only the detachment Bikers can get 2+ Jink on first turn, and that's due to the Murder Talon detachment bonus +1 cover + Stealth + Jink. Anyway, even constant 3+ Jink is good for bikers.

EDIT 15.12.2016 Corrected grammar.

Oh definitely do the murder Talon, I was just saying you'd only need the raptor Talon and 3 spawn, which is a substantially smaller tax.

I'd thought Night fight was LIKE stealth, but if it's the actual rule, your right, it would only be a 3+. I'm gonna have to mess with some lists tonight and see if I can find a warband pattern I like, because 2 biker squads with 2+ saves would have a lot of potential, and they become more effective with OBSEC... if only I could find a way to get my Fire Raptor in there.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Anyone thought about a leadership debuffing list?
War cabal with telepathy, casting shriek on a 3+ (and invisibility and shrouding for durability.
Helldrake formation -1/2
Allied plague Herald with bell -1
NL vox daemonicus -1
Anything else?

Could do some real damage.
Would be good mixed with an unmarked legion like alphas / night lords/ iron warriors.

We can get leadership down to almost nothing but i highly doubt it makes a viable list.
Just csm alone have the heldrake formations for a -3 at max. -2 from raptor talon, -1 from NL, -1 from EC.
-1 from kranons helguard (which also exists as a generic CSM formation so could be NL). And there's the red onslaught which also reduced leadership by 1
So that's -9 right there . Terrify would add another -1 temporarily. That's not even including warlord traits.

So you can pretty much give everything leadership 1 or 2 which is the same thing really, so no need for the red onslaught. And this is before considering allies like dark eldar who can do this well too.
This doesn't instagib units though. You would need 0 strength, toughness or wounds for that. which is really hard to do since maledictions reduce to a minimum of 1.

 koooaei wrote:
I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Well, there wasn't a single time i was able to shoot the blast. Noie marines were either moving or shooting at invis.

I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

One shot at that Rhino and that's 70 points wasted. FnP has always been absurdly useful for me, but I'm really not sold on all those icons just to support a legacy on a Rhino. Maybe if the legacy got dropped on a flyer, which would give it way more flexibility and ability to get round the table better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Blastmasters are still hampered by the terrible blast rules but at least they ignore cover and inflict ID on T4 models. Not a terrible buy if you know you're running into Wulfen and the like.

 koooaei wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Well, there wasn't a single time i was able to shoot the blast. Noie marines were either moving or shooting at invis.

Ohh, interesting. I guess I'd still consider that to be an unusual scenario. My loyalists don't like facing 'em. They're also nice vs. Tau Crisis/Stealth Suits, and Ravenwing/WS Bikers with their stupid Jinks, etc. IMO the Blastmaster is a pretty sexy weapon.

Obviously, at the end of the day it's your army though.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

One shot at that Rhino and that's 70 points wasted. FnP has always been absurdly useful for me, but I'm really not sold on all those icons just to support a legacy on a Rhino. Maybe if the legacy got dropped on a flyer, which would give it way more flexibility and ability to get round the table better.

Yeah the Rhino's 11 front armor is its biggest weakness. Sticking the Legacy on a flyer is somewhat pointless as you want to maximize the amount of time FnP is up on your units, and it coming in turn 2+ means there will be less models for it to effect when it arrives. Maybe an Ally detachment to bring in a Contemptor with the legacy would be better? It would certainly be sturdier and actually contribute to the war effort.

A Kytan or one of the FW Knights. That's the go-to for a legacy I imagine.

You can bring a flyer but you need to bring a landing pad in that case. It can't fly, but it can move 12 and flatout 18, shouldn't have a problem buffing you.

My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

I was definitely thinking Land Raider type solution. A bit more durable, and a better capacity.

Valid point with the flyer, a contemptor isn't a bad idea, but like you said, that's gonna be a huge point sink.

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

It won't really be able to keep up with smoke. You can't flat out and smoke.

Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

 Roknar wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

It won't really be able to keep up with smoke. You can't flat out and smoke.

2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.


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 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
I was definitely thinking Land Raider type solution. A bit more durable, and a better capacity.

Valid point with the flyer, a contemptor isn't a bad idea, but like you said, that's gonna be a huge point sink.

Problem with that is now you're taking a Fist of the Gods Aux formation and spending points on a LR and 2x Preds if you're keeping points down, 490+ points just for the legacy. Might as well go with the combined arms ally detachment at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

Er what? Are you confusing the Helforged Warpack with the Fist of the Gods formation? Helforged Warpack allows you to choose an alpha unit, but it doesn't get infiltrate. Fist of the Gods doesn't even allow you to bring Rhinos. Where are you making an alpha rhino?

 andysonic1 wrote:
2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.

Assuming they don't make it into combat that is. Which maelstrom zerkers have a decent shot at. Though I suppose you can daisy chain the odd zerker to be in range, since it applies to the unit.

 Roknar wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.

Assuming they don't make it into combat that is. Which maelstrom zerkers have a decent shot at.

It is the main reason you take them, you're right. However! You still have to consider that the Legacy bubble is 12". As I pointed out, you can keep the Rhino very close to them, covering them for the overwatch and, if they do make their charge (which they most likely will), it will have a good chance of covering them should they charge forward 12". Not every model in a berzerker unit of 10 (or 8 as I am now lowering the units in an attempt to bring more Rhinos for a different reason) needs to be in the bubble, just one to confer the FnP to everyone. You can pretty much cover all four units for the overwatch, and maaaaaaybe two+ for the close combat phase. Yeah, your Rhino is now most likely going to die in the next turn to shooting, but it did its job.

Edit: Here's a dumb idea: every unit of berzerkers takes a Rhino, doesn't start in them, the Rhinos all have Dirge Casters, no legacies. The Rhinos move 12" then flat out another 6", putting their Dirge Casters within range of the very edge of the enemy deployment zone. If you go second, and they enemy moves forward for any reason, and your Rhinos aren't completely gone yet, you can negate overwatch pretty easily. I call it a dumb idea because it isn't very realistic or all that helpful. If I was taking Rhinos with the zerkers, I'd use them as firing platforms or for the Legacy as outlined above.

Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

 koooaei wrote:
Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

I respect your choice but I disagree with it whole heartedly. The blast Master and the doom siren are the only reasons to take noise marines over marked CSM. My list runs 4 min Noise marines squads in rhinos with blastmasters from a CAD and they do serious work while scoring. The annihilate bikes and suppress vehicles by at least shaking them, they also cause instant death and force multiple pinning checks. Sonic blasters are easily avoided or countered by transports and have garbage output on the move, which they need to be doing to get into threat range.

The key is knowing how many is enough, I won't run more then 4 units and probably should pair it down to 2 or 3 and bring more demonettes and seekers ultimately. BTW my primary AT comes from 2 deimos vindicator laser destroyers. A must have in any cult list IMHO.

The problem with sonic blasters is the range reduction on the move. If salvo weapons could fire at full range while on the move it would make noise marines easily the best cult troops.

Currently, the blastmaster suffers from the fact that it's small blast, the larger new SM bases and the assault profile isn't very impressive either. Shred is very nice on blastmasters though, but the +1 strength doesn't add much, so filling all the slots in a kakophoni doesn't seem necessary. Running 3 full sized squads with 2 blastmasters and Icon seems pretty good (though very costly)

Alternatively, you could also run a squad with CCW's and doom siren, maby min sized or full sized with Icon for melee, stick them in a rhino with a dirge caster, Using a blastermaster to pin enemies.

Blastmasters splitfire and shred and ignores cover gives you a decent shot at locking down 2 squads at the same time. You can use them to set up for a charge and not worry about overwatch, cover your advance, etc. I think they are powerful if you use them right. I also like sonic blasters a whole lot more since shred is the push that made them from mediocre to pretty decent. Shred is pretty awesome on a s4 weapon, raising the hurt output by 50 percent... noise is a wonderful thing if properly supported in my very limited experience

 Red Corsair wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

I respect your choice but I disagree with it whole heartedly. The blast Master and the doom siren are the only reasons to take noise marines over marked CSM.

Doom siyrens are great. Especially with shred. But they are counter-intuitive to blastmasters in a single squad. Sirent want to roll closer and when you move, the blastmaster gets downgraded to a tiny bit better sonic blaster - s5 shred vs s4 shred is not really all that hot. It's as if grey knights had to pay 45 pts per storm bolter to get psy ammo back in the day. If you're stationary, than you either can afford to play defensively in this particular game or you're wasting 70% of the squad's cost for just a single s8 small blast that might hit a model or two.

In both games where i ran kakophonii - they were the core and not ranged support. Couldn't just hold back and hope for the best. They needed to move around and do stuff. Furthermore, it was more preferable to move 12-18" rather than 6" and shoot two s5 ap4 shots. If i need something to sit back and shoot, i'll just take an allied iron warrior cad with tankhunter obliterators - 2.5 for the price of one blastmaster nm squad.

The only thing that blastmasters really have going for them is pinning and now split fire. But unfortunately morale has become very niche now. Yeah, it's gona be neat vs some armies like non-bullyboy orks without ghaz or...night lords?..If you do remain stationary, it can be good vs 3+ armies in transports. But you need to pop the transports first, so - iron warriors. And than, you're still wasting the sonic blaster potential which has increased with shred.

My problem with blastmasters is that you don't only pay for the blastmaster itself, you also pay for the wasted rest of the squad if you want your s8 ap3 blast.

I might be wrong and it's not such a big performance difference either way. Or maybe i don't see it's potential. But so far, with my limited experience with noize marines, i'd rather go for sonic blasters and syren. Syren's great and synergises with blasters. Now i don't know about the weapons for champs. Haven't had it matter yet. They either get caught in the shootouts or get wiped by superior mellee anywayz. But i5 could matter for a claw champ.

I just want to see a champ with a powerfist ID some big nasty hq on his way down with that death attack. Bonus points if he rolls apotheosis for "winning" the challenge but the sonic weaponry aside from the siren favors camping and I have to disagree with sonic blasters synergizing all that well with the siren. On another note has anyone tried drive by sirens with lucious and a siren champ? Does that work?

Power fists for the deathguard all the way. As for the EC, it's hard to tell. i5 is quite tasty but this 1 attack even if you get killed mitigates the ini drop somewhat. Quite expensive though.

But that one time your 50 pt model takes a 200 point model with it as it dies and turns into a 250 point model afterwards I mean at least mark of slaanesh with unwieldy weapons isnt a complete waste anymore. There is that.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

Er what? Are you confusing the Helforged Warpack with the Fist of the Gods formation? Helforged Warpack allows you to choose an alpha unit, but it doesn't get infiltrate. Fist of the Gods doesn't even allow you to bring Rhinos. Where are you making an alpha rhino?

Pretty sure he was talking about an Alpha Legion rhino and not an "alpha" from the Helforged Warpack. Also, wouldn't be too had to grab that - an allied Alpha Legion detachment with a Chosen/CSM squad infiltrating with their rhino. You could even toss a Mindveil on the Alpha Legion HQ and have him join a 'zerker unit later to assist in getting out of fights/charging every turn.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

According to 1d4chan that legacy of ruin is meant to be used on those with the Icon of Vengeance. Apparently Forgeworld confirmed via email that it was a typo and should be for the unmarked icon. Makes sense given that Khorne was the only god that got two legacies and unmarked got none in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

A good detachment to take for this would be a Purge detachment with a 1 HQ 2 Elite min requirement. You'd want this legacy on a walker (i.e. a contemptor) anyway.

Demantiae wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

According to 1d4chan that legacy of ruin is meant to be used on those with the Icon of Vengeance. Apparently Forgeworld confirmed via email that it was a typo and should be for the unmarked icon. Makes sense given that Khorne was the only god that got two legacies and unmarked got none in the book.

That would be awesome if it were like that. I scoured quickly through the FW material and couldn't find any mention.

On the other hand I started lawyering the supplement, and it seems to allow some weird combos.

For example some of the legion specific detachments are implied to be be legion specific/exclusive. This however is not clearly stated in the book. Let me demonstrate: Night Lords Legion Insurgency Force. Insurgency force is the Alpha Legion detachment. Now all the VotLW units gain Night Lords bonuses, and then the whole detachment has the Shrouded on 1st turn. Of course you won't get re-roll on WT, but you can get this anyway by doing CAD with whichever legion you want.
You could fill up your Fast Attack with bikers (2+ Jink 1st turn, 3+ later on). Then compulsory Helbrute could be stuffed into dreadclaw and you have 2+ Jinking Helbruteclaw + 15-20 bikers boosting at the enemy. Then behind you have swarm of cultists which come back on 4+/4+, maybe twice, if you have lost and the damned as aux and why wouldn't you.

What do you think, is this even legal?

... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


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I've read that backwards, but still.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

Ghorgul wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

if this is true that is disgusting. Infiltrating death guard?

 -v10mega wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

if this is true that is disgusting. Infiltrating death guard?

This is all a stretch.

Every decurion has a blurb at the top of the page.
" X detachments are used exclusively by the *insert legion*. The rules below... "

But unlike the black legion only formations, the decurions don't have the restriction spelled out that says they are a legion detachment. So RAW they're not really limited to the their legions, it's really just heavily implied.
They really should say:" A butcher horde detachment must be from the world eaters" or something to that extent. I sure would love me some Black Legion butcherhorde, but I doubt you'll find a lot of players allowing cross legion detachments other than in friendly or narrative games.

What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

 godardc wrote:
What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

The Black Crusade Detachment and rules for the Renegade Knight.

And a passable story, with some highlights from Kharn.

 godardc wrote:
What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

Renegade knights and the black crusade detachment.
The latter gives you free VotLW and hatred(armies of the imperium). It also gives you one free boon per turn (or two for the warbands).
The crusade is more or less identical to the legion detachments but you also get a lost and the damned as core.

so it's mostly for Crimson Slaughter or alpha legion. CS or generic CSM would also allow you to use all the characters and there is an auxiliary with cult troops.


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Random thought. Would there be any benefit in taking the new inquisitor detachments for warlord traits? Spamming on strategic traits since those don't care about factions.
The night lords relic for - reserves plus divide to conquer could be nasty, but they're all good.


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What's the verdict on the Black Legion warband?
Armywide hatred(everything) and preferred enemy(everything) is a pretty potent combination on paper.
In addition you could termicide turn 1. Crusader would also help to destroy a unit during the combat phase to get the buff there.
It would also combo with the raptor talon...in theory.

Against msu and light transports it could be good, against other stuff you'd need a pretty big warband to come even close to everything being ObSec.
You're also limited by range. The only long range in the warband would be from the havocs.
Termicide would only hit once and chosen or marines would need a claw to get close enough for turn 1. I suppose you could start them in rhinos, but then you're stuck with plasma.

I feel like the buffs themselves aren't bad but we'd still need an update to our base units/codex for it to be an alternative to ObSec. Not to mention that the detachment almost requires a TAF or raptor talon due the deepstrike bonus, so you can only spend that many points on the warband.
Of course, the hounds of Abaddon have issues of their own and that's their only other core.

Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible prefered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

BL can run the best MSU termie list with a CAD. 6x3 obsec Termies with combi-meltas. They can be very annoying if spread out all over the board to contest objs. This gives Armies that doesn't have high volume of shooting a lot of issues.

Run that with a IW CAD with 5-6 sinlge obliterators as troops for some lulzz

Danny slag wrote:
Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible preffered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

Deathguard by a country mile. For a mark of nurgle (so T5) they are fearless, feel no pain and Objective Secured. So they're quite likely to stick around on that objective long enough to deny it to your opponent.
But it's more than that even. The nurgle discipline got soooooooo much better imho, everything is good. You have no reason not to use p-axes now on DG termies and blades of putrefaction gives them re-roll to wound more often than not.
Leper curse gives them S6 with axes putting them at the same strength a WE unit would have with furious charge, except these guys are then T6! So they punch as hard as WE but are much much tougher in that case. And if you're taking a TAF with a warband, you can stick that sorcerer with one of the Objective secured termies. Only he gets to fire twice but at this point who cares.

BL termies make for a slightly nastier alphastrike, especially with the dicegods in your favour, but after that they are normal terminators (without obsec)
You can give them obsec, but then they loose pseudo preferred enemy and come on like every other terminator.

Oh lawd speaking of DG did anyone notice the nerf to daemon princes:

'Units that have the Veterans of the Long War special rule have the Fearless and Feel No Pain special rules, but reduce their Initiative characteristic by 1. Typhus and units of Plague Marines are unaffected'

Daemon princes have the VOTLW special rule.... that means deatguard daemon princes just got their I dropped from 8 to 7!!!!

booooooooo

XD

lol. On a different topic, Black Legion are the only legion to have access to the new TSons units other than TSons themselves.. Which means BL is the only legion with access to divination, albeit in a CAD. I can't really think of any good combo with those units mind you. Hatred doesn't do much for those units and they still can't use them in their speartip. Only benefit I can think of is to gain access to divination slightly cheaper than other legions due to do not needing a second CAD (and not needing tzeentch cultists). At the same time though, the black legion warband already gives them a weaker prescience but for free, so getting prescience isn't as important. Plus seer'S bane woudl be the biggest reason to bring an exalted sorcerer, but a BL exalted sorcerer doesn't get that.

Black legion is the only one that can take the cabal right? The other decurions don't have the cabal in their HQ options.

Yes, but it'S pretty easy to incorporate it, since marks are entirely optional and it's a formation that can be taken standalone.

Considering a BL list based on the warband (with maelstrom in mind):

1 Black Legion Warband formation (Core)

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Sigil, MoK, Juggernaut, AoBF, VotLW

x6 Bikers
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Chosen
WITH: x5 Plasma gun (1 on champ), VotLW, Rhino

x5 Chosen
WITH: x5 Plasma gun (1 on champ), VotLW, Rhino

x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Autocannon , VotLW

x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Autocannon , VotLW

x4 Terminators
WITH: x4 combi-Melta, VotLW

______________________________

1 Black Legion Raptor Talon formation (Aux)

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Sigil, Jump pack, Lightning Claw, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: VotLW

This gives me 314 points to work with. Ideally I would like add a psyker of some kind to cover my bases on tactical objectives.

If possible, the chosen disembark and shoot at something, either before or after moving their rhino. The lord + bikes move up while the rest of the army deepstrikes in.
The raptor talons should take the heat off of the lord and chosen as they lock units into CC and the terminators try their best to pop a vehicle. And the havocs sit on an objective, shooting at whatever.

The Black Legion objectives and rules require you to be a jack-of-all-trades, so this army would try to capitalize on that.
You've got preferred enemy on the warband after killing a unit in the shooting phase and you have quite a bit of that in T1, you have hatred armywide for melee which the raptors can benefit from T1 and ideally some sorcerers to benefit from the objectives as well.

Except right now the list is short on bodies and psykers. I was thinking of either adding a lvl 3 sorc (to the warband) and some bodies, or, 314 is enough to squeeze in a cabal. Even with just 3 warpcharges you 'd still be able to cast the deceit if you keep them close as it's almost a free cast. In that case I'd probably swap some bikers to buy bikes for the cabal and join them with the juggerlord. On the other hand, that's almost enough to add another TAF. I'd need to drop a unit in the warband or some bikes but it should fit.

Or add something else entirely, It's enough points to add in a CAD from any legion after all.
What do you think?

I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

If you want to run low model count, you want those models to be hard to kill, which means Death Guard or some sort of death star.

Danny slag wrote:
Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible prefered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

I hate to keep repeating myself but Deathguard. The black legion can take the terminators as troops sure, but if you want early deepstrike then you need to take their detachment, at which point they lose obsec anyway, meanwhile deathguard can take the same number of terminator units, but keep obsec.

I cannot believe they didn't give the black legion the chaos warband as an option. The black legion warband is so damned awful by comparison.

Please note that every legion except T-Sons and BL have access to the CWB meaning things like raptors, chosen or termi troops are basically a thing to everyone. In that regard, the unmarked legion that has the most flexibility is probably Iron Warriors since they have more of a reason to take a CAD and unlock oblits as troops.

Ugh that fething Black Legion Warband.... SOOOOOOO STUPID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

If you want to run low model count, you want those models to be hard to kill, which means Death Guard or some sort of death star.

Sadly if you want to do anything better play death guard, don't forget the fethers do horde best due to zambies as well. Drives me batty since I am so fatigues by the last few editions where literally everyone played death guard to some degree.

Thing is, the BL Warband works ok for casual games and is fluffy, but praying you get a good first turn or you'll lose isn't much of a competitive strategy.

I guess Iron Warriors can do small and elite decently, if you CAD and spam ObSec Deep Striking Oblits.

I realky liked the idea from sonsofvulkan=).

So i tried to make a decent list with my available models^^.

BL CAD
DP of nurgle with wings, armour and mace
3x3 termis ( i only have 3 meltas and 2 flamers).
Low
Renegade knigth with battlecanon and reaper sword
IW CAD
DP of tzeentch with wings and fleshmetal armour
6x1 oblits

Dont know how many points this list is, maybe something around 1600 points?

Thought about adding the omniscient oracles or helldrakes.

What would you add to this list, sticking to the theme (want to keep my dps + at least 2x3 termis and my oblits)? Want to make it somehow decent, to play some tournaments and don' t get instant wiped=).

Hope this can be good and you guys can help me a bit^^.

Been writing some lists tonight for my older armies and lots can be done still with the CaD and picking a legion to grab some rules.

The decurion(s) do offer some good stuff but i'm finding it quite liberating to just ignore them and fit in some more juicy unit options the cad brings.

Like i just took one of my armies and nurgled it up a bit:
Got helbrute mayhem pack in there, fire raptor but now the marines are like plague marines with charging when firing their bolters

made the barebones sorcerer i have i gave pox hive so blob of cultists are now a lot harder to move

The unit of obilts I have gets FnP.

Kept all the good toys and other stuff got better.


e.g. here is the list before:
Kharn 160
Plasma pistol, Frag, Krak Aura, Gorechild

10 Chaos Space Marines 195
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

10 Chaos Space Marines 195
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

15 Chaos Cultists 72
CCW, Pistols, Shotgun

15 Chaos Cultists 70
CCW, Pistols

3x Obilterators 237
MoN, Vets of long war

Fire Raptor Gunship 235
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Autocannon Battery
4x Balefire Missiles, Extra Armour

3x Laser Destroyer Rapiers 165
6x Marines, 3x Laser Destroyers

5 Spawn 150

Mayhem Pack Formation
Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist


NOW:


Sorcerer 110
MoN, Lvl1, Poxhive, Frag, Krak, Bolt Pistol
Aura, Vets of long war

10 Chaos Space Marines 215
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns, MoN
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

10 Chaos Space Marines 215
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns, MoN
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

5 Spawn 180
MoN

20 Chaos Cultists 130
Auto Pistols, CCWs, MoN

3x Obilterators 228
MoN, Vets of long war

Fire Raptor Gunship 235
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Autocannon Battery
4x Balefire Missiles, Extra Armour

3x Laser Destroyer Rapiers 165
6x Marines, 3x Laser Destroyers

Mayhem Pack Formation
Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist


Its not hyper competitive but its an army i like with models i painted that i love. The marines are now a really real threat as opposed to literally a pts sink to hobby love. Kinda just an example that CaD is still good with this legions book, don't feel too restricted by the decurions because the freedom to take the actual units you want can maybe with the extra legion rules prove 'better' than the extra decurion buffs