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I'm actually thinking that the easiest way to do a deathstar is just the old "take be'lakor for auto-invis".
My debate: I want to include Be'Lakor and a Chaos Knight (forge world) and I could certainly take them as a CSMCAD, but then I wouldn't get any of those sweet sweet legion bonuses.
I could (and probably should) just take a Daemons CAD with the pink and blue horrors, but I don't like taking the grim without fateweaver, and I think both would probably be overkill
astro_nomicon wrote: Man its really a shame you can't do a proper Chaos Super Friends with only 3 detachments. I came up with this and it looks pretty good but it's 4 detachments. Still I'll post it for consideration.
········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]
+ HQ +
········Chaos Lord [Juggernaut of Khorne, Lightning Claw, Mark of Khorne, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Talisman of Burning Blood, Veterans of the Long War]
········Kharn the Betrayer
+ Troops +
········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]
········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]
++ Formation Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++
········Cyclopia Cabal
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
The Mindveil is much more important than the Talisman. You can still do first turn charges easily in NOVA format, with 4 lvl3 sorcerers fishing for Soulswitch or Worldwrithe.
In ITC format I would use the extra pts to bring a Chaos knight as a LoW with the legacy to give your hounds +1 Invuln which is also more important than +3" charge
So that's 3 detachments, at around 1600 pts, leaving a bit spare for upgrades and stuff.
There's a lot of units, but nothing is useless. cultists can infiltrate, zerkers surge forward in a scary mass.
The TS warpsmith can boost the blob T1, and then look after his tanks. Maybe with 1 unit of cultists as protection.
So the bezerker blob gets a 2d6 re-deployment move, 15" move, d6+3 run, and 2d6 +6" Charge, with fleet.
Fast. Lacks in durability, only have one sorceror to try and get invisibility/shrouding. Also gets red rain one per game to double assault, and the mindveil so you are never having a turn you aren't charging.
Only units consisting completely of WE legion are able to 2D6 redeploy, so no adding a Sorc unless he hauls ass up to the unit after they redeploy. Your best bet with this list is to rush the blob forward, start the Sorc and Warpsmith in the infiltrators if possible so they can meet the blob halfway, then they join the blob before it assaults. Your berzerkers should always be at the front of the blob to benefit from the talisman + formation bonus.
If you wanted a first turn charge with bezerkers, you could use the fist of khorne formation. And then your super fast world eater characters can move up and join them for a charge. Could probably daisy chain some sorcerers too
Anywayz, back to kacophonii. I've calculated some stuff and the 6-squad configuration of 3*5 with blasters + siren and 3*10 with blasters, 1 blastmaster and an icon + more or less geared Lord - all in dozer rhinos - would eat up ~ 1600 pts. Which is not really an option cause you end up with a limited amount of not very mobile meq dudes with mostly anti-infantry weaponry.
3 min squads with or without blastmasters seem more adequate and would clock around 500-600 pts before the lord.
Anyone tried out Emperor's children paired up with a Night lords legion?
Night lords legion gives night fighting by default. While Emperor's children has weapons that ignore cover. So, 1st turn night fight, they will shoot you with heavy cover save while you shoot back at them ignoring their cover saves.
A night lords legion decurion is cheap if you get the raptor talon core. Pair up with a Emperor's children CAD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 16:07:32
The problem is you won't get to fire the first turn as sonic weapons are salvo and you're not relentless. Well, unless you get Huron or something. But it's gona require another detachment. I think that sonic noize marines are still bad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/14 16:21:43
Captyn_Bob wrote: Basically. You can get decent range with the blastmasters . If you really wanted to take advantage you'd need something clever like deadclaws
A lot of these formations are written to play at points values way above what people really play. If you build out a warband formation with the min units required, but at reasonable levels (i.e what would actually work rather than MSU to get it as cheaply as possible) then right there you've got enough for a smaller 1500pt game (some legions get cheaper core formations than others but many are expensive). Once you throw on a mandatory aux formation at a reasonable level you're hitting (or are close to) the 1850 mark. To get a good varied and balanced game out of these detachments you really want to be taking 2-3 aux choices to cover everything. Now you're talking about 2500 or 3k points games. For example, you can take any detachment that requires a warband as core, plus the mandatory aux from whichever formation would best suit that legion (Raptor Talon for NL's, LatD for AL etc) you're already hitting a full 1850 list. But you have nothing resembling a tank (god forbid you try and squeeze a dedicated LR in there somewhere). to get a tank you have to buy 3, and a warpsmith. There's another 500pts spent, just to get a tank on the table.
It's crazy. The detachments are good and all but the level of play they're built around is crazy. When SM's can squeeze everything into an 1850 list (and get 500 pts of free transports to boot) it's kind of silly that chaos can't even field a tank at 1850. You really have to go combined arms for 75% of your effectiveness and just use the formations as extra's.
A lot of very cool super-allies tactics can be cobbled together out of this book, but the points costs are incredible to pull it off. It's a shame that most of the books potential won't ever get used.
Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.
As I'm thinking of Night Lords list, I would have really preferred if they had amended Warband by allowing the compulsory 2-6 csm squads be replaced with Raptors, like as a legion specific rule. Is being able to get obsec Raptors too effective? I don't think so. So running the Warband + Talon as cores nets me a many raptors and obsec units. They problem with this is everything is so cheap. With Night Lords it would make sense to gear up 1 or 2 quite big and scary biker groups with lord afront soaking up fire and maybe also Daemon Prince of Change with 2+ rerollable jink. This way the softer raptors squads and rhinos and cms' could concentrate on doing obsec. This doesn't work however because I am forced to take so many useless squads that I can't spare enough dakka or hackka ware for the scary units. And those champions and lords need to be equipped, otherwise the cheapest enemy unit is just gonna tar me, or even better, their only "ok" cc unit is gonna come at me and crush me in cc. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.
So I'm a bit dissappointed, but not all hope is lost. My current idea to test is to load Chosen and Helbrute into dreadclaws, as the rules allow them as dedicated for these units. Their function would be to soak up fire, while everything else charges ahead. I did my math, dreadclaw actually can take punishment much better because of the jink, Str 6-7 weaponry is not that effective against it. Also the embarked units take almost no damage even if dreadclaw gets destroyed, thanks to hover. This seem expensive, but paying 100 points to force enemy to destroy 2 AV 12 vehicles, 1st one with 4+ jink on 1st turn/2nd turn (I would prefer have enemy begin the game) or have the dreadnaught charging them on my 2nd turn.
OK why can't helbrute buy smoke launchers? That is so wrong..
I think they could have made this supplement a bit better, but I'm happy nonetheless.
astro_nomicon wrote: Man its really a shame you can't do a proper Chaos Super Friends with only 3 detachments. I came up with this and it looks pretty good but it's 4 detachments. Still I'll post it for consideration.
········Hidden Units and Dataslates (Select first and once per roster) [Show all hidden Force Org options, Show Dataslate entries]
+ HQ +
········Chaos Lord [Juggernaut of Khorne, Lightning Claw, Mark of Khorne, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Talisman of Burning Blood, Veterans of the Long War]
········Kharn the Betrayer
+ Troops +
········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]
········Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists, Mark of Khorne]
++ Formation Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v2009) ++
········Cyclopia Cabal
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
············Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
The Mindveil is much more important than the Talisman. You can still do first turn charges easily in NOVA format, with 4 lvl3 sorcerers fishing for Soulswitch or Worldwrithe.
In ITC format I would use the extra pts to bring a Chaos knight as a LoW with the legacy to give your hounds +1 Invuln which is also more important than +3" charge
Good points. I was thinking more along the lines of nerfed Soulswitch though which I feel is pretty common. The knight idea is solid, but I don't own one and won't be getting one anytime soon.
So assuming, 3 detachment and nerfed Soulswitch, I'd drop the WE detachment and retain Mindveil. That leaves 527 pts to play around with. What would be the best way to spend them (besides a knight)? Could probably grab a 5th Sorc in the Cabal (so 6 Sorcs total), a heldrake, and a beat stick KDK Lord.
Or would more infiltrating ob sec cultists be a good idea? Losing Kharn Khan is a bit disappointing since he deals so well with one of the big shortcomings of the star, IKs, but could proabably be worked around.
Demantiae wrote: A lot of these formations are written to play at points values way above what people really play. If you build out a warband formation with the min units required, but at reasonable levels (i.e what would actually work rather than MSU to get it as cheaply as possible) then right there you've got enough for a smaller 1500pt game (some legions get cheaper core formations than others but many are expensive). Once you throw on a mandatory aux formation at a reasonable level you're hitting (or are close to) the 1850 mark. To get a good varied and balanced game out of these detachments you really want to be taking 2-3 aux choices to cover everything. Now you're talking about 2500 or 3k points games. For example, you can take any detachment that requires a warband as core, plus the mandatory aux from whichever formation would best suit that legion (Raptor Talon for NL's, LatD for AL etc) you're already hitting a full 1850 list. But you have nothing resembling a tank (god forbid you try and squeeze a dedicated LR in there somewhere). to get a tank you have to buy 3, and a warpsmith. There's another 500pts spent, just to get a tank on the table.
It's crazy. The detachments are good and all but the level of play they're built around is crazy. When SM's can squeeze everything into an 1850 list (and get 500 pts of free transports to boot) it's kind of silly that chaos can't even field a tank at 1850. You really have to go combined arms for 75% of your effectiveness and just use the formations as extra's.
A lot of very cool super-allies tactics can be cobbled together out of this book, but the points costs are incredible to pull it off. It's a shame that most of the books potential won't ever get used.
I get what you're saying, but I have to point out that the SM Battle Company only really works in 1850 if you're also taking minimal squads, and only one (fairly cheap) Auxilliary. From that standpoint it makes sense that Chaos winds up in a similar situation. It's really, really difficult to get fancy wargear in the full-Co Gladius. The moment you start looking at Sternguard, Conclave or serious tanks you wind up hampering squad effectiveness or just giving up the free transports because you can't fit it.
Chaos has so many tempting units and upgrades. . . it's really hard to control the points spending.
Fhionnuisce wrote: An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).
Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)
I wish you were right as it would have meant lots of free points before free points were a thing.
The rules for independent characters tell us once joined they form a new unit, it doesn't matter that each model doesn't have the mark. What matters is this new unit now contains a model with a mark which is why a different marked character cannot join. "Considered part of the unit" tells us all we need, you are not just joining the original unit, your joining him as well. A mark is gear, same as terminator armor, we don't ignore the restrictions on sweeping advance and terminator armor when a character joins a power armored unit do we? By your reasoning way more implications that break the game open up.
The burden of proof is actually on your argument. W40K is a permissive rules set. You need to show us where it says it is legal in light of the codex suggesting it isn't.
Unrelated to this debate, for the record I was wrong earlier in regard to Typhus. Your were correct, I just wanted to state that
Ghorgul wrote: Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.
It's funny because I think the exact opposite. I see no issue running a 1500+ point warband
A CAD is easy to open up with an Alpha Legion detchement with a sorcerer/lord + infiltrating cultists can be had for 250 points or less (depending on upgrades).
As a deathguard player, I want to take CSM, bikes and Havoks. I don't really like the Elite slot, but with adding in AL and mindveil, I can add in choppy terminators and have less worry about movement issues.
All of that is fairly cheap and I can toss in a spawn as aux.
Insectum7 wrote: I am really digging Black Legion for their flexibility, and I'm impressed with the Hounds of Abbadon formation, one that I passed over on my first read through.
Gives models the Mark of Khorne for free, plus a once per game assault-after-run. If they roll 8+ for assault they get +1 Strength.
Unit requirements are lower than the "Chaos-Demi-Co" and it gets you Berzerkers in a Black Legion list. But more tasty are the basic Chaos Space Marines for 13ppm CC loadout. Rage, Counter Attack, Crusader, Endless Hatred. I didn't quite appreciate them until a trial battle when I was rolling two dice for runs (picking the highest) and throwing buckets of attack dice and re-rolling to hit. I'm now thinking about a cloud or two of them with Icons to re-roll charges.
Best of all? It's a Core formation for Black Legion Decurion.
Also used the Cyclopea Cabal. In the psychic phase I was getting a White Scars Command Squad to fire his Ignores Cover special weapons at other White Scares Bikers and doing terrible damage. Nasty, nasty power.
I lost the game, I had thrown together my army in a hurry and didn't really know how to use it. But I got a nasty round of charges off against multiple Bike Squads and had I been better prepared for it/rolled a little better, my opponent and I agreed that things looked dodgy for a pretty competitive White Scars list. I came away from the game with very good impressions.
Dose the hounds of Abadon give obsec? If not I still like the CWBand better, I'd rather pay for the mark of Khorne then get it and a few situational benefits and lose Obsec.
Dose the hounds of Abadon give obsec? If not I still like the CWBand better, I'd rather pay for the mark of Khorne then get it and a few situational benefits and lose Obsec.
No the the Hounds do not get Obsec. Although the generic Chaos Warband is also not available to the Black Legion Speartip, only the Hounds of Abbadon and the Black Legion Warband, which instead of granting Obsec can give re-rolls of ones to-hit instead.
Not having Obsec is definitely a risk, although in my first game with Legions I found that they held objectives okay simply because my opponent didn't want to get near my all CC troops. I'll be interested to see how that pans out for me as I get more games in.
The other benefit to the Hounds is that it's the cheapest Core in the book. 1 Lord, 1 Berzerkers, 1 CSMs, and 1 Raptors is the minimum. So if you want to go crazy on the Auxilliaries or whatever, you can.
That said, thematically I'm much more interested in my Chaos guys being more lethal with their bonuses, rather than being good at holding objectives. So I'm all for the trade off. At least in my first game, it was really fun to see how hard they can hit. I actually felt good about Raptors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 20:38:55
Ghorgul wrote: Demantiae, that's very valid point you said. The Chaos Warband formation is very expensive, doesn't allow ForgeWorld at all (except some dedicated transport) and thus it's very suffocating. Of course everything is obsec, but the compulsory havoc/helbrute doesn't do much, and the chosen much less.
I would say running a cad next to the legion detachment is a must. And this gets even more expensive as Warband + Cad you are forced to take 4 squads of csm, 1 Chosen or maybe Terminators, I don't see anyone taking possessed, and finally 1 havoc squad. Helbrute is going explode the second you get close enough to do anything significant and its weapons can't do much at all. Even if you would go the cheapest way possible, this will be quickly almost 500 points. Adding rhinos is kind of tempting, but then then you are even further towards just doing MSU list.
As I'm thinking of Night Lords list, I would have really preferred if they had amended Warband by allowing the compulsory 2-6 csm squads be replaced with Raptors, like as a legion specific rule. Is being able to get obsec Raptors too effective? I don't think so. So running the Warband + Talon as cores nets me a many raptors and obsec units. They problem with this is everything is so cheap. With Night Lords it would make sense to gear up 1 or 2 quite big and scary biker groups with lord afront soaking up fire and maybe also Daemon Prince of Change with 2+ rerollable jink. This way the softer raptors squads and rhinos and cms' could concentrate on doing obsec. This doesn't work however because I am forced to take so many useless squads that I can't spare enough dakka or hackka ware for the scary units. And those champions and lords need to be equipped, otherwise the cheapest enemy unit is just gonna tar me, or even better, their only "ok" cc unit is gonna come at me and crush me in cc. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.
So I'm a bit dissappointed, but not all hope is lost. My current idea to test is to load Chosen and Helbrute into dreadclaws, as the rules allow them as dedicated for these units. Their function would be to soak up fire, while everything else charges ahead. I did my math, dreadclaw actually can take punishment much better because of the jink, Str 6-7 weaponry is not that effective against it. Also the embarked units take almost no damage even if dreadclaw gets destroyed, thanks to hover. This seem expensive, but paying 100 points to force enemy to destroy 2 AV 12 vehicles, 1st one with 4+ jink on 1st turn/2nd turn (I would prefer have enemy begin the game) or have the dreadnaught charging them on my 2nd turn.
OK why can't helbrute buy smoke launchers? That is so wrong..
I think they could have made this supplement a bit better, but I'm happy nonetheless.
I just wanted to point out that a dreadclaw in a night lords detachment has a 3+ jink first turn, not a 4+. They don't get stealth for being NL or the better cover save, but night-fighting gives them stealth. The same would be true for any non detachment units, since night-fighting applies to everything.
I just wanted to point out that a dreadclaw in a night lords detachment has a 3+ jink first turn, not a 4+. They don't get stealth for being NL or the better cover save, but night-fighting gives them stealth. The same would be true for any non detachment units, since night-fighting applies to everything.
Hey that's good! Didn't even realize, that's even better then. I'm always thinking the detachment bonus rule +1 to cover saves on 1st round, but of course everyone gets stealth.. thanks!
Actually then Kharybdis would be even better choice, and actually a solid reason to skip Murder talon altogether and just go with the CAD. It costs more but it actually has serious firepower! Then I could also field Sicaran and do full Raptor Biker list otherwise.
. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.
The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.
The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.
. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.
The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.
The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.
Actually we still need to do Murder Talon, be it with Raptor Talon or whatever, but that is the thing that forces night fight, so can't go only with CAD. I was so excited already. But anyway, that would be ok, as Raptor Talon is a bit cheaper and less restrictive than Warband, although does pile up fast to atleast 500 to 600 points.
I understand Night provides Stealth to everyone and having 2 Stealths don't stack I think? So only the detachment Bikers can get 2+ Jink on first turn, and that's due to the Murder Talon detachment bonus +1 cover + Stealth + Jink. Anyway, even constant 3+ Jink is good for bikers.
EDIT 15.12.2016 Corrected grammar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 22:03:58
Last night I played with the following list against Necrons:
Spoiler:
Butcherhorde
Chaos Warband
- Kharn
- 5x Terminators min
- 3x3 Bikes, 2x Meltas and Melta bomb each
- 1x Helbrute, rift anomaly
- 5x5 CSM, 1 Melta and 1 Power Axe each
Lords
- Deamon prince with Berzerker's G
- Lord on jugger with talisman
Aux
- 1x Spawn
First two turns were pretty fun. I split my force up so one half of the table was the bikes, termies, lords, kharn, and prince, and the other half was just one unit of bikes and CSM. The point heavy side did well, but couldn't punch through reanimation protocols on his necro-lord and escort as well as I wanted them to. Hell, I charged his lord and escort with the prince, termies+lord+kharn, and a unit of CSM, and they teleported out with only a few loses. The CSM and bike side might as well have not been on the table, getting shot to death by arks and the the large blast of doom. The Helbrute was a complete waste of points, never got anywhere close to combat, and will never stain my table again. Overall I spent too many points on too many useless models.
My heavy lifters were the prince, kharn, and the lord, and this really showed me that even with the buffs, regular CSM aren't going to pull weight even with upgrades. A World Eater detachment that is doing its job is getting its IC's into combat. Because of this, I'm going to try a Maelstrom of Gore next game and see just how much faster I can get across the table. I might even ally in a Gorepack to give my four Berzerker units some much needed cover.
Fhionnuisce wrote: An Independent Character that joins a unit is considered part of that unit (BRB). If the IC has a mark and is part of the unit then the unit has that mark even if not all models in it do. An IC with a mark of chaos can't join a unit with a different mark (C:CSM).
Nope, if my Nurgle lord joins an unmarked CSM squad, the squad does not get my mark. Sorry, but you are wrong on this and have been since the CSM codex was released. "Considered part of that unit" does not bestow a mark. Your second sentence needs a citation as that is the one you are wrong about. That also is the crux of the discussion. So if you can defend that second sentence, I will agree with you. (I won't as this has been addressed many times over for years)
I wish you were right as it would have meant lots of free points before free points were a thing.
The rules for independent characters tell us once joined they form a new unit, it doesn't matter that each model doesn't have the mark. What matters is this new unit now contains a model with a mark which is why a different marked character cannot join. "Considered part of the unit" tells us all we need, you are not just joining the original unit, your joining him as well. A mark is gear, same as terminator armor, we don't ignore the restrictions on sweeping advance and terminator armor when a character joins a power armored unit do we? By your reasoning way more implications that break the game open up.
The burden of proof is actually on your argument. W40K is a permissive rules set. You need to show us where it says it is legal in light of the codex suggesting it isn't.
Unrelated to this debate, for the record I was wrong earlier in regard to Typhus. Your were correct, I just wanted to state that
I guess it is probably best to check the tourney rules (Adepticon and NOVA both allow it as both use ITC rulings--see their FAQ) or talk it over with your opponent pregame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 01:10:05
Let me go and amend i.t
Night Lord XIII Company: 6,600 Points, 12W-4L
Skaven Cheese-stealer Renegade Cult: 2,000 points, 0-0
Warboss Spine Squisha's Ork Warband: 3,000 Points, 1W-3L
Carcharadons Astra: 2000 Points, 11-2
