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Even pre-TL MoK Marines were still a better choice as a whole. World Eaters Tactics merely made it a stupid difference in power.

Apologies for the repeat post, I just posted this in an army list thread, but I wanted to get some discussion going here as I need to make rapid choices about what to build for a casual mini-tournament in June (my 40th birthday bash - four days at WHW with five other mates).

I think the others are running: Daemons, GSC, Necrons, IoM/SM, War Con. All lists will be fairly competitive. We're all there to have fun, but it'd be nice to not get... crushed

I've just started a DG collection, and I think the Vectorium is definitely worth running.

Terminators aren't too terrible when they have FNP re-rolling 1's, you could take a single unit of 3 with combi-meltas to threaten a vehicle or MC.

Min sized squads of tacs are probably best, everything in the warband has obsec so you want to zoom around in rhinos and camp on objectives being survivable. I think plasma guns may shine here as they match range with bolters, you're unlikely to die to Gets Hot and you can double-tap and charge (relentless).

Havocs with autocannons seems like plenty of dakka.

Bikes. Bikesbikesbikes. Did I mention Bikes? Your chaos lord should be on one. Sorceror on bike maybe too (the nurgle powers are good close-in). T6, 3+, Jink (with +1 over 18"), FnP re-roll 1's... grief. Tank up front with your warlord and heal him with your Sorceror if you get that power.

So... which auxiliaries?

I am leaning towards Cult of Destruction (T5, 2 wound, 2+/6++/5+++ obliterators....). Perhaps a unit of 3, with two single models. Gives you decent firepower (shoot twice with the warpsmith's ability!). A very flexible and survivable unit.

If you skimp a bit on the Vectorium you can also fit in a Heldrake terror pack - I love the model, but I'm unsure two is worth the points. I might instead make a CAD, move the sorceror to it and take min cultists as troops to unlock the Heldrake.

Finally, Renegade Knight. More badass shooting, stomping, or access to D. Unsure which is better of the latter 3 options.

Anyway, I'm new to the forces of darkness so any advice on loadouts, builds, tactica etc. would be really appreciated.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Re: Zerkers v CSMs: WS5 and fearless are more useful in large numbers.

As Andysonic1 pointed out, this isn't really the case anymore. Pre-Traitor Legions, you might be able to argue it, but with World Eaters rules now, regular CSM are huge jump ahead of Bezerkers, sadly.

I will say that the Fist of Khorne still is very good for KDK and even brought with WE just simply for multi-charging on first turn and tieing up enemy units while the rest of your WE units dash for the enemy deployment zone. Heck, with a decent scatter, you might even be able to jump a WE IC like a juggerlord or something similar from a unit of WE CSM that had to sprint into the unit of Bezerkers before they charge, which would help get him in on a first turn charge as well.

Before my last tournament I would have disagreed about the Fist of Khorne, but after someone moved all their thunderfire cannons to their back field so I couldn't get my WE units to him until turn three I see the use of a drop pod assault.

@zerosignal

I really like the vectorium but i think its not that good. Plague marines are outshined by csm with MoN. All plague marines have is the plague knives. I think the chaos warband is the best since you get so much obsec. I think you should go for chaos spwan and MoN and make a mini deathstar. You could also advocate for a small auxillary and take a renegade knight. There are lots of options. The fact that you are running DG guarantees you have some kind of reliability in your force.

I'm liking the idea of a Juggerlord running up to a Fist of Khorne and joining a turn one charge. You're allowed to join units of other Legions during the course of the game as long as they're Battle Brothers, right?

Two Heldrakes are decent. Can take both weapon options, for harassing both troops and armour. Much better taken as an Attack Wing, though. TBH extra Havocs and a token Chaos Spawn might be a better use of points for Death Guard, really overwhelm them with infantry.

I used to run my juggerlords up to the fist of khorne berzerkers all the time. Just end your lords movement in cohesion and BAM you're in. I did this with KDK, mind you, because thats how you got your lords across the field asap. You don't rrreeeaalllyy need that anymore with World Eaters.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I'm liking the idea of a Juggerlord running up to a Fist of Khorne and joining a turn one charge. You're allowed to join units of other Legions during the course of the game as long as they're Battle Brothers, right?

Two Heldrakes are decent. Can take both weapon options, for harassing both troops and armour. Much better taken as an Attack Wing, though. TBH extra Havocs and a token Chaos Spawn might be a better use of points for Death Guard, really overwhelm them with infantry.

WHY would you take anything but the Baleflamer?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

WHY would you take anything but the Baleflamer?

Four str 8 that can easily position itself to hit side armour with pen re-rolls isn't too shabby, can get some nasty crossfires and Attack Patterns can easily make up for mediocre BS

 lindsay40k wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

WHY would you take anything but the Baleflamer?

Four str 8 that can easily position itself to hit side armour with pen re-rolls isn't too shabby, can get some nasty crossfires and Attack Patterns can easily make up for mediocre BS

That's four shots at BS3 for 170 points.

I'll repeat the question: why would you take anything but the Baleflamer?

That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.

It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.

Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.

It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.

 aka_mythos wrote:
That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.

It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.

Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.

It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.

PEDM
Just because you've seen it doesn't mean that's the correct math and the correct logic. CSM doesn't need AT (and being crappy AT at that). It needs Ignores Cover.
You want crummy AT? Buy a Forgefiend. But don't pretend the Hades Heldrake is doing anything good.

I'll have to agree with Slayer, there's no reason to take the Hades over the Flamer. If you want to blow up tanks just go up and punch them or melta them. You'll end up doing that faster than waiting for a Drake to show up and miss its shots.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
That's what I used to think but I've seen them take out more vehicles than the typical anti-vehicle units.

It really boils down to what an army has and what it needs. Simply put we have more things that contend with infantry well but we struggle popping vehicles across the board. Our ability to deal with vehicles is largely... Raptors or Terminators configured for a suicide deepstriking mission... or lascannons mostly shooting at front armor... A Heldrake brings mobile firepower and tends to survive better than any of that.

Next I see the Heldrake with hades playing double duty as anti-air.

It's also worth noting that many people bring more than one Heldrake where doubling the Heldrakes doesn't necessarily double the targets of opportunity, but having a different sort of target does.

PEDM
Just because you've seen it doesn't mean that's the correct math and the correct logic. CSM doesn't need AT (and being crappy AT at that). It needs Ignores Cover.
You want crummy AT? Buy a Forgefiend. But don't pretend the Hades Heldrake is doing anything good.

The fact I've seen Heldrakes take out as many vehicles wasn't to say "this is why I believe they are worthwhile" but to say "this is why I started looking at it more closely." It is what prompted me to question my belief and not proof of my conclusion.

"Anti-vehicle" was only one reason, but it's the combination of those reasons that make it worth considering. You insist on wanting to hear any reason to take a Heldrake for hades over the baleflamer... but you're ignoring rationale. I'm not saying it's a great choice but it isn't "crummy" either.

I used to prescribe to the wisdom of taking Heldrakes only for the baleflamers. Now I believe a Heldrake with a Hades autocannon gives us versatility. It will not die as easily as a Forgefiend and it's easier to target lower armour value facings of highly armored vehicles. A hades on a Forgefiend isn't as likely to have the opportunity to shoot what a Heldrake will. With the limited mobility of our army being able to have something deliver anti-vehicle shooting by traversing the table to gain range and opportunity allows it to outshine slower and static units like a Forgefiend which would have to walk several turns or have a superior weapon to accomplish the same. The Heldrake can also function in an anti-air role. This ability to rapidly traverse the table allows it to threaten a variety of targets... Yes, the ability to ignore cover is important but as I said a lot of times the people taking a Hades armed Heldrake are already taking a baleflamer armed Heldrake... while redundancy has its virtues so does diversity... and some players meta emphasize a need for versatility.

Heldrake w/hades:
-high opportunity to target low armor facings
-high opportunity to target vehicles and flyers
-superior mobility over units like the Forgefiend
-superior survivability over units like the Forgefiend
-supplementing baleflamer Heldrake

If there is one thing on that list you don't need, then you are correct but some people do need that specific combination and that's justification enough for it.

The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.
2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?
3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.
4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.
5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.
Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.

Rapier weapons battery with Hades is 195pts for three. Yes, you can only take it in a CAD and you can't move it, but I think with that range you don't necessarily need to.

I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

It is never going to take a gun off a Vindicator reliably. 2 S8 shots a turn at 170 points. Compare this to anything else please. You'll see it has no damage output for the cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also no flier is scared of the Hades. Nobody jinks against actual AA half the time, why would I jink against the Hadesdrake?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Rapier weapons battery with Hades is 195pts for three. Yes, you can only take it in a CAD and you can't move it, but I think with that range you don't necessarily need to.

Thank you for pointing out one of the alternatives. Yes it is 25 points more, but definitely more killy.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.

If they're using a crap expansion that arguably made all fliers worse (any area using it won't have fliers) that's on them.

andysonic1 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.

Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.

Versatility, the ability to place shots where and when needed against lower value armor facings while also affording mobility and an anti-air component to your army.

A hades autocannon has 4 shots, against something like the vindicator you use in your example... A Forgefiend will land 4 shots, against the front only 1/3 of those shots glance or pen.... a Heldrake lands two shots, as you say, but those two shots are likely to be against the rear, penetrating 2/3 of the time... even against side armor the Heldrake is out performing the Forgefiend. Something like a vindicator can shield itself against less mobile ground units by presenting its front armor, but it's very difficult to shield its side and rear to a flyer. The Heldrake has advantages against fliers too.

2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?

For the reason I said above and the fact that it threatens fliers and can move quickly enough to contest objectives. If it goes ignored until the late game, it's going to make its points back. Even if it doesn't outright kill units it will be delivering deathblows and mop them up.

3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.

The Forgefiend is just a gun, if that's all you need, great. However particularly in the late game, if hasn't already been killed, it will often find itself ill position to be meaningfully positioned.

4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.

This is why I insisted you have to look at the Heldrake in the totality of its virtues, piece-mealing the points doesn't address how the advantages interact. As I pointed out above you haven't addressed them. You just think you have.

5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.

Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.

I disagree, I'm not pretending. They have been too relevant to late game play too many times, in a way other Chaos marines units can't be. Firepower isn't everything. Tabling your opponent isn't the only way to win.

 aka_mythos wrote:

andysonic1 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.

Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The fact this conversation needs to be had is mind-boggling.
1. What versatility? That's an average of 2 S8 shots per turn on a 170 platform coming in at T2 earliest. That's not making its points back.

Versatility, the ability to place shots where and when needed against lower value armor facings while also affording mobility and an anti-air component to your army.

A hades autocannon has 4 shots, against something like the vindicator you use in your example... A Forgefiend will land 4 shots, against the front only 1/3 of those shots glance or pen.... a Heldrake lands two shots, as you say, but those two shots are likely to be against the rear, penetrating 2/3 of the time... even against side armor the Heldrake is out performing the Forgefiend. Something like a vindicator can shield itself against less mobile ground units by presenting its front armor, but it's very difficult to shield its side and rear to a flyer. The Heldrake has advantages against fliers too.

2. Yeah the Heldrake is more survivable than the Forgefiend. The Forgefiend also lands more shots per turn, and the only reason the Hades Drake is more survivable than the Forgefiend or Maulerfiend OR the Baledrake (hear me out) is because it'll be completely ignored. You know why? Look at bullet point #1 again. Why would I ever try to waste my time with THAT?

For the reason I said above and the fact that it threatens fliers and can move quickly enough to contest objectives. If it goes ignored until the late game, it's going to make its points back. Even if it doesn't outright kill units it will be delivering deathblows and mop them up.

3. The Forgefiend doesn't NEED mobility. The guns already have long enough range. That would be a valid point if we were talking about the Plasma one but we aren't.

The Forgefiend is just a gun, if that's all you need, great. However particularly in the late game, if hasn't already been killed, it will often find itself ill position to be meaningfully positioned.

4. Ergo you try to increase versatility by taking a bad unit as a whole whereas we can get more reliable AT elsewhere. No, the survivability of the Heldrake doesn't matter because I already tackled that point. A Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for good reason. I can't name a single army that would be scared of it. The only army not scared of Baledrakes is pure Imperial Knights though.

This is why I insisted you have to look at the Heldrake in the totality of its virtues, piece-mealing the points doesn't address how the advantages interact. As I pointed out above you haven't addressed them. You just think you have.

5. Your list automatically sucks if you think you don't have enough of those following needs and think to yourself, "Where can I get almost no damage output? I know! The Hadesdrake!". Seriously. You're inflicting less than 1.5 HP damage on a frickin Rhino AV per shooting. At least the Forgefiend can get 2.7 HP on that.

Add in more formation support for the Forgefiend and therefore you can quit pretending anyone should consider a Hadesdrake for any reason other than wanting to be different for the sake of being different.

I disagree, I'm not pretending. They have been too relevant to late game play too many times, in a way other Chaos marines units can't be. Firepower isn't everything. Tabling your opponent isn't the only way to win.

You've got to be kidding me.

1. I already showed the math for Rhino armor on the front and sides. In the rear you inflict only 1.7 HP stripped on AV10 with your Hadesdrake. Against the front and sides armor the Forgefiend is still inflicting 2.7 HP stripped, and against a Chimera front it is 2 total HP gone. Against AV13 it is 1.3 HP, which is .4 HP less than the Hadesdrake getting all its advantages you list, which won't always happen like you're pretending. It isn't hard to cover a rear either or get a save, ergo the Forgefiend is showing how much more versatile it is just by having more shots to provide. It doesn't matter if you shoot at the rear if you don't have the shots to provide damage in the first place.
2. It isn't threatening fliers based off the math I provided above. Also the only thing better than contesting objectives is taking them, and the Baledrake can actually do that by killing things on objectives. Nobody is afraid of 2 S8 shots, but 4-5 S6 Ignoring Cover does that better. It won't make points back. It is 170 points at 2 shots average per turn. You have to roll excellently literally every time, so people ARE going to ignore it, whereas the Baledrake will actually do what you proclaim.
3. The guns are 36" I'm pretty sure. If something is out of range that means I'm probably winning at that point. Ask Tau players if they think that'd be an issue.
4. Those advantages only interact when the math and basic logic does. 170 point 2 S8 shots per turn isn't good just because you can hit rear armor because I already showed the math how much superior the Forgefiend is if you're looking for S8 shots. So it IS an advantage, you're correct. It isn't like it matters though based off the basic math I just showed you now AND earlier in the thread.
5. Your opponent can't hold objectives or out-maneuver you if units are dead or are afraid of a death zone. The Hadesdrake doesn't provide any of those fears unless the opponent is, to put it blunt, stupid. Just flat-out stupid. If you think a Hadesdrake has any value, you'll gak your pants when you finally used a Fire Raptor. I think that's what you are after. Try using that, seriously. It isn't hard to get one in a list either. AND they're only 30 points more.

 aka_mythos wrote:

andysonic1 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've never held much stock by 'making its points back'. If a Heldrake achieves nothing more than immobilising or taking the gun off a Vindicator, and thus enables a push by ground forces that would otherwise have been blown away, it's done it's job. They're also pretty good at rushing flyers head-on and then doing a Break Turn - this effectively forces less agile Flyers to turn the other way to try to avoid a volley up their exhausts.

I keep forgetting you use Death from the Skies. To be honest I think you are the only person in this thread who uses those rules and thus finds a use for the Hades.

Don't be dismissive. He's writing in response of someones criticism of me using them in an environment where others are using them.

I wasn't being dismissive, I was just realizing the situation where a Hades would actually be better than a Bale would be in Death From the Skies and not a game without it. The simple truth is that the Hades doesn't output enough hits on a unit that is already gambling when it is going to even show up to the field and then move halfway up, potentially coming in too early to hit side or rear armor on enemy armor or too late to be of any use to the game. Personally if I'm going to make a gamble like that than I'm going to take something that rips through MEQ like butter and not something I have to gamble on a second time just to hit something. Plus if you're worried about other fliers just Vector Strike them.

It's not stupidity, it's meta.

I'm writing from my own experience of what I've seen and played. You asked for an exception to the rule, and I'm saying there is one. I have never seen a CSM army so thoroughly table an opponent that range and maneuverability weren't important in a late game. I've never seen a Forgefiend last into the late game. I play in a meta that is dense with LOS blocking terrain. I play in a meta where I'm using my Heldrake to shoot at the rear of Leman Russes and Vindicators more than Rhinos, where Forgefiends fail to compete in any attempt to engage head-on or get tied up if they try to walk around for better vantages. A Forgefiend may have more shots per turn, but in my meta they would rarely last long enough to get more shots off over the course of the game to outnumber the shot of the Heldrake. Forgefiends draw deepstriking units that kill them. My hades Heldrake is a king of mop up, freeing up my other units to shoot at new targets rather than worrying about that last HP which the Heldrake can dispatch. You're weighing just lethality and I'm weighing its opportunities and the alternative opportunities to other units when they're freed up to target something else.

There are better ways to address Rhinos/chimera and flyers and yes it would be great to do more than just contest objectives, but the number of things I would need to cover all those same bases cost more and don't have the mobility.

You wanted some rationale to justify a hades Heldrake... and I'm saying the need for a specific type of Swiss Army knife unit in a particular meta. I get it, you disagree, but it works for me and the other CSM players in my gaming group. Maybe it's useful or maybe it's too specific, but it's why I've tried to be specific.

That's why you get a Fire Raptor. Hence why it is stupid. By the Autocannon battery and watch it do literally everything better. There IS no rationale.

And when my opponents are okay with me bringing them I do. I said it before hades Heldrake, not a great option, not even a good option, just an okay one that can fulfill specific needs.

 aka_mythos wrote:
And when my opponents are okay with me bringing them I do. I said it before hades Heldrake, not a great option, not even a good option, just an okay one that can fulfill specific needs.

That's not my problem. That's yours. FW is as legal as anything else and I'm telling you flat out why the Baledrake is doing things better. Who cares if it doesn't hit vehicles as well? Forgefiends and Havocs and Termicide are doing it so much better.

I do think the Hadesdrake is a bit overcosted - perhaps about 10-20pts? - relative to the Baledrake. It's three Daemonic attributes are ok-ish and make it's HP & S8 go a little farther but there's clearly more than 30pts between it and the Fire Raptor's firepower and rear armour. I don't think I'll be taking a single Hadesdrake very often, but a pair - especially in a Wing - with both variants can effectively crossfire targets with strong front armour in different ways to a Forgefiend's frontal attack.

This is an open thread on Legion tactica where OP did not set out to be focussed on competitiveness alone. If someone wants to use the awesome mecha-dragon in pairs over the pricey and difficult to build flying Land Raider then there's a place for discussing loadouts and strategy, just as there is for my overcosted but fun Possessed jumping out of a Land Raider and getting joined by a Juggerlord (at least 95% chance of charging a unit 24" away, if you were wondering)

On a related note would you bother running any Heldrakes at all if you had a Fire Raptor and Hell Blade available?

 lindsay40k wrote:
I do think the Hadesdrake is a bit overcosted - perhaps about 10-20pts? - relative to the Baledrake. It's three Daemonic attributes are ok-ish and make it's HP & S8 go a little farther but there's clearly more than 30pts between it and the Fire Raptor's firepower and rear armour. I don't think I'll be taking a single Hadesdrake very often, but a pair - especially in a Wing - with both variants can effectively crossfire targets with strong front armour in different ways to a Forgefiend's frontal attack.

This is an open thread on Legion tactica where OP did not set out to be focussed on competitiveness alone. If someone wants to use the awesome mecha-dragon in pairs over the pricey and difficult to build flying Land Raider then there's a place for discussing loadouts and strategy, just as there is for my overcosted but fun Possessed jumping out of a Land Raider and getting joined by a Juggerlord (at least 95% chance of charging a unit 24" away, if you were wondering)

I would be only considering a Hadesdrake if it were 140 points and we get a 180 degree firing arc because it is on a frickin neck. I don't know why GW does the things it does.